PDA

View Full Version : Toaster Vision & Multi camera edit in TED



cvp
09-29-2003, 12:44 PM
I'm trying to multi camera edit. Although I managed to get it done in TED, it was very difficult because I can only see the active source. Is there a way to assign each source its own toaster vision. Say--one in preview and the other in Main or program out?

Jim_C
09-29-2003, 01:12 PM
Use the preset quad split in the Toolshed to place each cam in a corner.

Rich Deustachio
09-29-2003, 01:20 PM
That is an ok way to see multi cam tracks but because you have to turn on overlay to see all of them, you can't place your DVEs on while viewing the multi screen. We need a way for VTvision to display the multiple view without making the video tracks PIP overlays but just compress the displays down to PIP.

cvp
09-29-2003, 01:29 PM
Preset quad split? Could you explain? Thanks

cvp
09-30-2003, 07:33 AM
After re-reading the replies here-I think I didn't get my point across.

I want to do a two camera edit where I cut/fade(whatever) back and forth between the two camera angles. I do not want a PIP or overlay. The end result will simply show (for example) the first camera looking up the aisle and then fade to the second camera on the side, and back and forth as necessary to create the effect I want. In order to do that properly, it would be extremely convenient and helpfull to be able to see each camera simultaneously, in order to choose which angle and time frame I want to switch back to the other camera. There really isn't anything unusual about what I want to do. And I'm really surprised and disaapointed with Toaster that it can't do it.

Has anyone come up with a work around/

To Newtek--Are you going to accomodtae this in a future build?

ScorpioProd
09-30-2003, 01:13 PM
I agree with you. It is disappointing that a powerful system like VT[3] can't do "simple" A/B roll style editing.

Believe me, I've complained about this many times.

Hopefully, it will be a future feature.

Newtek's Classic Toaster/Flyer NLE system, thanks to third-party support, could do this MANY years ago.

And yes, through third-party plug-ins, MOST other competing NLEs can also do this.

And I really don't understand how few editors seem to need true synchronized A/B roll editing in their NLEs... I just know I do.

videoconcepts
09-30-2003, 02:41 PM
the only way i did this is to put both tracks in synk and put a fade on it then put another on and drag it. youll beable to see one track. stop at the point you want to switch then put another fade in and drag it and you will see the other track.
when your done hit cut unused (somthing like that). copy your audio first because it will chop your audio up too. past the copy back on and delete the old. thats it.
does that make sense?

works for me. not what i want but untill they do something.........:)

cvp
09-30-2003, 02:54 PM
I did something similar to that. Just sync them up, then dragged a fade where i wanted. This keeps the audio in tact. The only trouble is--You have to guess at whats on the other camera at that given moment. And then drag the effect to the exact point.(trial and error)

I haven't tried this yet--But, I was thinking about setting each track up as PIP left and right w/ overlay on (similar to what some described above) and then put audio markers where I want the cross fades to happen, then turn off PIP and overlay, and then hit the edit to music command. HOPE that works, but haven't tried it yet.

Either way--COME ON NEWTEK! When are you going to do this?

Thanks,
Joe

Rich Deustachio
09-30-2003, 04:34 PM
You don't have to guess what is on the other track, put your pointer on the bottom edge of the other clip and hold down the left mouse button and it will show up on your program out as you drag it along the clip (Local view). I will sometimes just place a dissolve right after the dissolve/cut to the active source and play it. When it gets to a point I like I will drag the dissolve/cut to that point. But it still is a pain doing this way even with the use of Local Viewing.

We really so need to be able to see the other clips in VT vision at the same time without using the PIPs.

wvp
09-30-2003, 07:12 PM
A) Rich is correct - if you put the mouse cursor on the lower left edge of a clip it will say "local". At this point you can use left mouse & drag 'locally' along this clip & see it on output.
B) Search these forms - there are some posts (I think in Feature requests) talking about this, including an example of resizing the clips into quarter panels (as is mentioned here) for purposes of cutting the clips. Then you would add the effects after un-doing the quad overlay thing.
C) Please let newtek know officially by emailing them at [email protected] that you want this.

SBowie
10-01-2003, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by wvp
B) Search these forms - there are some posts (I think in Feature requests) talking about this, including an example of resizing the clips into quarter panels (as is mentioned here) for purposes of cutting the clips.[/i]

Here's one such thread:

Feature Suggestion (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9803&highlight=multicam)

vanguard
10-01-2003, 07:25 AM
I think we missed the point.

This guy is asking how to monitor the incoming camera signals in a live situation.

I asked Aussie about this at last year's NAB, and the problem lies in that theres a limited number of video streams (capable of) passing in and out of the VT through the SX-8.

Eventually I would like to see a "Pro" SX-8 with true loop-through inputs, but at this time we are T-ing our camera inputs, un-terminating the input and attaching a series of external monitors.

Old-school, but functional.

If there were lots of simultaneous inputs to the VT it would cost ALOT more!, plus be processor hoggish.

My .02

cvp
10-01-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by vanguard
I think we missed the point.

This guy is asking how to monitor the incoming camera signals in a live situation.

No! They didn't miss the point. I am talking about monitoring A/B tracks simultaneously in Toaster Edit. Using two captured tracks.

Thanks for your input though. Sounds like Newtek has some work to do regarding monitoring for Both live switching and NLE.

Joe

Adam_LightPlay
10-01-2003, 07:43 PM
The optimal solution would be for Ozzie to whip up a few tools to automate it. But short of that, I think I've got a pretty handy work-around involving cloning all your clips to a lower section on the timeline, and putting them all into PIP's. I'll post a link to the full tutorial next Wednesday.

Regarding live monitoring of several cameras on one monitor, I've seen color quad splitters designed for security cameras for under $200 at Fry's. I'd run the Y/C from the cameras into the SX-8 and the Composite into the quad splitter. Then you can see four channels on one monitor. A lot less to carry to the location. It's actually a benifit for color matching, because you don't have to worry about several monitors all being calibrated the same.

It's great to be back. See you all soon.

Adam Lightplay,
(The artist formerly known as Don James)

SBowie
10-03-2003, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by Adam_LightPlay
The optimal solution would be for Ozzie to whip up a few tools to automate it. (The artist formerly known as Don James) Hi 'formerly' :) I have to disagree. That might be an 'adequate' solution, but I think the optimal one, for a variety of reasons, would be a setup like the dummied up 'screenshot' in the thread I linked to above.

Jim_C
10-03-2003, 08:37 AM
>>>>but I think the optimal one, for a variety of reasons, would be a setup like the dummied up 'screenshot' in the thread I linked to above.


Yup, that looks like it would be pretty sweet.



jim

fbcvideo
10-03-2003, 07:58 PM
quad splitters designed for security cameras for under $200 at Fry's
what is the model number for this iteim? I would like to get one or two. thanks.

Adam_LightPlay
10-15-2003, 11:04 PM
Here you go, kiddies. Sorry I didn't get to make any cool graphices to go with it, but think I explained everything clearly.

MultiCam Editing
Easy editing from multiple takes of the same show or event.
How to easily sync, see, and scrub through multipule camera angles.
Written for VT[3]. VT[2] use is virtually identical, but may require slightly different steps.
Thanks to Aussie and Phil Nelson for some of the techniques, and to my friend and client Chuck McCann, without who's persistant friendly nagging I would not have finally brainstormed
the final edited tracks in the lower right window, solution.
Enjoy and good luck. If you know simpler ways, please share them with us. My pride will only be slightly hurt, and that pain will be far exceeded by the joy of an even easier way to do it.


Before and During Filming:
Sync-ing
Before the scene, or after any camera is paused, be sure all cameras are rolling, and use either a clapboard, LED readout or flash that can be seen by all cameras.


Post Production, Part One Setting up to Multicam edit. Syncing all takes.
1. Digitize all clips
2. Put the master track, (best audio, or wide shot) on the top row of timeline.
3. Scrub thru and find the sync point, (flash or clap). (Remember sound travels about 30 ft per frame so visual clues would be better to work with if the cameras are different distances from the action.) Select the clip and hit “m” on the keyboard to lay down a green marker on the clip.
4. One by one, put the other camera clips on lower tracks, and repeat step 3 above, to mark their sync points.
5. Snap the scroll bar, (blue line) to the green marker on the top clip, and then move the lower clips until all the green markers snap into alignment at the same point in time.
6. Play thru and all sound should be identical if you shot at close range. If you hear an echo, then some clip is not perfectly lined up. To fix this, first zoom way in on the timeline, and either recheck the visual cues, or look at the audio waveforms to find the spike at the snap or other loud short audio. Move the lower clips to match with the top clip.
7. Now the clips are definitely synced up. In case the clips get moved as you are working, let’s place a second set of markers at the end of the clips, so the can be re-aligned quickly if need be. Move the scroll bar almost to end of the project. Without moving the scroll bar, select al clips and hit ‘m’, to place a green marker on it. Click in a blank area of the timeline and hit “m” again, this will place a marker on the timeline that matches the markers on the clips.
8. Trim their ends to the true start and end points, and adjust the audio if needed, or delete the audio tracks that won’t be used.
9. (optional) Another way to keep the clips in sync, is to adjust the time code on the lower clips to match the time code of the master clip. Go to the first frame of your project. Make sure all clips are in sync and begin right at 00:00:00:00 on the time line. Open the edit Properties Panel. Note the time code of the master clip. For example let’s say the top, master, clip starts at frame 00:00:13:25
Now go to each lower clip and note the time code of their first frame. Subtract the top clip’s TC from the lower clip’s TC. For example if the lower clip’s TC on the first frame is 33:24. Subtract 13:25 from it and you get the magic number of 19:29, (remember the last 2 digits are 30 frames, so the math is a little strange).
In the edit properties panel for the lower clip, click on the upper tab that says All, (All/Comments for VT[2]). At the very bottom of the panel is a field that says Timecode Offset. If the magic number is a positive number, enter it as a negative number in this field. Such as -00:00:19:29.
Now the clips both should start at the exact same number. Meaning they have identical Timecode, for easy chopping.



Post Part Two Making Mini-Windows to see all sources.
This lesson will create two sets of all your clips, in a Timeline view. (Storyboard editing is not recomended from here on, so you might as well make the view full screen Timeline).
The Lower Set of clips will be 1/4 screen overlays and are just used so that you can scrub thru simultaneous camera angles.
The Upper Set of clips will be the actual final clips, you will be editing. But temporarily they will be 1/4 screen so, as you scrub, you can also see the choices you've made for the final edit.

1. On the upper half of VT-Edit choose the tab that says Control Tree. Then click on the tab that says Positioning.
2. Go to each of the clips and scale them down to a ¼ screen picture in the lower right or lower middle.
3. Select all Clips, by dragging a box over them.
4. Hold the Control key and use the left-mouse button to drag a clone of the clips downward on the timeline. Let go of the Control key first and then snap the clips to the zero mark. After letting go of the clips, zoom in on the zero line and make sure the clips are all still starting right at zero. Delete any audio tracks from the lower set of clips
5. Go to the new Lower Set of clips, turn overlay on for each one, and move their ¼ screen windows to the locations that make sense to you. i. e.; Camera 1-Upper left, Camera 2-Upper right, Camera 3-Lower Left, etc. Leaving Lower right or Lower center for the master track, (upper set of clips showing through).
6. Now if you play the project, or scrub thru the project by dragging the Scroll Bar, you should see a Quad View, (4 screens) with your Lower Set of clips in two or three windows, plus a window that shows whatever clip you've chosen in the Upper Set.
7. The playback smoothness may not be great, depending on your hard drives, processor speed, and how many clips of what format you are using. You can wait for background rendering to make you a new file that plays smoothly, but it may take a while if you have a long project, and it may start background rendering all over again, every time you make an editing choice in the Upper Set of clips. So here are a coulpe of workarounds I've found handy. If it's not too critical to see the window with your final choices, you can select the top clip in your Lower Set of clips and turn off Overlay on it. Now BG Rendering will not need to update itself. Or, what I did on a project that had 4-6 versions in little windows, was to render the enitire quad-view project as singleclip, then delete all the Lower Set of clips, and put the new clip, in sync, in it's place. Now the PC can play it all much easier than trying to play the info for 3-6 streams all at once. You can even move this Quad-Clip to be the very uppermost clip, (i.e. back). Then the real final clips can appear in front of it while you are making the editing choices.


Post Part three How to use this setup, and chose your takes. Plus some tips.
1. Scrub thru the project and make your decisions based on the multi-view. When you want to cut to a desired track, select it in the Upper Set and hit “z” on your keyboard to add a Cut at that point. The Master window in the lower right, should now show the edit at that point.
2. You'll see the frame around the clips to indicate which clip you are on, for what section of time. Avoid using Razor cutting or Storyboard editing after this, because it can do a lot of strange things to the project, including cause a weird toggle thing where the cuts all reverse and go to the wrong clips.
3. With all these clips on top of each other, you may at times just want to see certain clip by itself. Don't forget that you can scrub thru any clip, by moving the cursor to the bottom edge of the clip till it says; "Local", and then clicking and draging left or right.
4. The Cuts that hitting "z", lays down on your clips, are flexible in a few ways. They can be dragged forward or back in time. Or deleted. They can also inherit a DVE later. (Drag Alt-Drop)



When you are all done editing, delete the lower set of clips. Go back to the positioning panel, (Control Tree-Positioning) Click “Reset” for each of the upper clips, to make them full screen again. Add your music, titles, aditional DVE's etc.

ScorpioProd
10-15-2003, 11:26 PM
Very good technique, that would definately work.

But I still would prefer a real MCE program to go with VT-Edit. This is 2003, and there is no reason we should have to be setting up stuff that detailed manually when other NLEs have programs (MCE from United Media for Premiere, for instance), that automate most of the things you described.

And not to mention the most important feature that VT-Edit lacks that would make your technique more reliable as well. A way to actually LOCK clips to time and to each other. I still am surprised that VT-Edit can't do that. That really seems like a basic feature to me.

Rich Deustachio
10-15-2003, 11:47 PM
I agree Eugene, we need to have MCE built into VT3 without all of the workarounds. Until we do this sounds like an ok way to get around it but the ability to lock the clips to each other after syncing them up would really help.

ScorpioProd
10-16-2003, 03:40 PM
Thing is, Newtek absorbed Aussie years ago, and he had plenty of experience with creating MCE for the Flyer...

And I am sure IF it was possible, he would have made MCE for the VT[3]...

So, I'm forced to conclude that the necessary foundations still are NOT in VT[3] yet to allow MCE to be made for it. :(

eon5
03-29-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by ScorpioProd
It is disappointing that a powerful system like VT[3] can't do "simple" A/B roll style editing.

:mad: I agree with you :(


i need to do a multi camera edition (4) oouuhhh jeeezzzzzzz

UnCommonGrafx
03-29-2004, 02:25 PM
How is that Bob's tool doesn't address these issues?

http://toastergarage.com/gpage2.html
MultiCam


Just curious...

Rich Deustachio
03-29-2004, 03:46 PM
It is a nice temporary alternative but not the ultimate solution. You cannot play multiple sources in real time with Bob's plug-in. Not putting down Bob's plug-in, it's a great tool since we don't have anything better right now. Many NLEs have this feature built into the systems without having to rely on aftermarket workarounds to acomplish 70% of what is really needed.

UnCommonGrafx
03-29-2004, 04:00 PM
Rich,
While we may want it built in, it seems there are other things on the list that may get 'fixed' sooner than this one.

And since I'd like everyone to have an answer to their toolset needs, tell me more about what else would make it work for you.

So, not being able to play the clips at once is one issue.
What if it were hooked into the vt out, within the VT paradigm? Would that be the 'trick'?

What else are stoppers, folks? Today's a conceptulization day. ;)

Rich Deustachio
03-29-2004, 06:32 PM
Let's see what newTek shows at NAB, they might address this issue.

UnCommonGrafx
03-29-2004, 06:39 PM
Putting it on my calendar to follow-up on this question...

:D

wvp
03-30-2004, 10:41 AM
For us, we edit a lot of multi-cam. To that end:

[list=1]
The ability to sync up multiple clips & somehow "lock" this sync (so you can't accidentally move the clip out of sync).
Ability to scrub FWD / REV, play pause, etc and view all the clips with audio
It is very important that we are able to hear the sound to determine exactly where to cut
[/list=1]

Getting #1 would be a big help as our current way of doing things is to sync all the clips. We then drag the in points of all the clips to the right, leaving just the clip of choice. Follow this by razoring the clip and the out point and continue dragging clips back & forth along with local scrub.
Not too bad for short multicam stuff but long form (like a wedding) this does not work well.

ScorpioProd
03-30-2004, 03:52 PM
I also agree that long term we could use MCE built into the VT, not just as a third-party add-on. I believe third-party support is important, but frankly, the Newtek SDK doesn't give third-parties the power that is really needed for complex operations and REAL GUIs. And there is nothing a third-party can do about the lack of some critical abilities in VT-Edit, such as not being able to lock clips to time or to each other.

And honestly, I really don't see that many other NLEs that have MCE built-in and not a third-party product. There are none built-in in Premiere Pro, Canopus, Matrox, Vegas or FCP4.

But for now, Bob Tasa's MCE plug-in is a godsend for me.

I use it for long-form wedding work and it's great. I agree there is the sound issue, but for me, I really don't need to hear the sound exactly accurate since I'm just cutting based on the video feed between either my main or second camera. SEEING the multiple feeds synced up is what is important to me.

I highly recommend Bob's MCE for wedding work. The only problem is, due to necessary fixes and upgrades in VT[3] Patch 3 that had to be done by Newtek, I don't know of a working version of MCE for Patch 3 at this time. :( Bob's working on this, but it's not done yet. I'm gonna have to drop back to Patch 2 for MCE work for now.

Chrysolithos
02-24-2005, 01:05 PM
So DOES VT 4 support MCE?

ScorpioProd
02-24-2005, 02:44 PM
With Bob's latest version of MCE, VT[4] works GREAT doing simultaneous A/B roll editing with everything in REAL-TIME. :)