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WilliamVaughan
01-25-2011, 08:09 PM
I've just released a fully rigged character model on my personal site for the community to animate with. I asked Kurt Smith to create a custom rig for my bi-ped frog character in hopes to see more character animation coming from the community.

It's a blast to work with and I hope it inspires people to create cool animations.

You can read more about it here as well as access the files:
http://www.pushingpoints.com/2011/01/roid-ribbit-rig/

Enjoy!

Hopper
01-25-2011, 08:35 PM
Thank you William. You're an icon of what's right in this world.

JeffrySG
01-25-2011, 09:13 PM
Very cool, William! Cheers!

Wade
01-25-2011, 09:30 PM
Great! Thanks.

GraphXs
01-25-2011, 11:15 PM
Really nice Rig! Thanks!

kosmodave
01-25-2011, 11:16 PM
Thanks for this William, It's always interesting playing with different rigs to see how different people go about things.

Dave

funk
01-26-2011, 12:17 AM
Wow thanks William and Kurt. I've never done any rigging so examples like this are going to help a lot!

OnlineRender
01-26-2011, 01:04 AM
TOP TOG , cheers William & Kurt .

daforum
01-26-2011, 02:11 AM
Very cool! Thank you for sharing a great model and rig.

Kuzey
01-26-2011, 05:35 AM
Excellent work guys...thank you both :thumbsup:

Kuzey

WilliamVaughan
01-26-2011, 05:39 AM
Thanks for the feedback.... so who will be the first to create something kick *** with it?

safetyman
01-26-2011, 06:08 AM
You are very generous William. Thank you so much.

alkart2003
01-26-2011, 06:36 AM
Do you think you will be doing anymore trainig vids? I have learned so much from the ones you have already produced. I think I can speak for the lightwave community in saying we would love to see more. There was an earlier posting wishing for more of your vids. I really think you have a great following. Keep up the incredible work!

MaDDoX
01-26-2011, 10:07 PM
Excellent job by Kurt indeed. I did my typical test-drive for any custom rig: start posing it right away without any reading whatsoever about what the controls do, and see what I come up with. To my amazement, I got pretty much everything right out of the bat, and just a tad longer to figure out most of the rest. Very few things weren't so intuitive and I had to watch the video to understand, nothing major though.

I've mostly got impressed about the knee-pointing control, personally I tend to dismiss 2D IK because I think those explicit pole vector controllers are a blocker towards the fine control of the animation curves, but the idea of using a controller in the hip-leg joints to rotate it not only works out that potential problem, but also makes it a joy to play with. I'd just hide the actual pointed knob, tbh. The foot controls are nothing short of amazing as well, making walk cycles a breeze.

All in all a very clear, highly posable and organized rig. Definitely a top notch job, if Kurt doesn't follow the forums please congratulate him on my behalf. And as a little proof of appreciation, I've quickly posed Roid and put up this picture for you:

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-31-1296104823.jpg

;)

The Scientist
01-27-2011, 06:08 AM
Excellent job by Kurt indeed. ;)

It's always good to get positive feedback on your work. Thanks for all the kind words. I'm happy to know you're having fun with the rig and character.

Thanks again

The Scientist
01-27-2011, 06:10 AM
Thanks for the feedback.... so who will be the first to create something kick *** with it?

I second Will on this. It would be awesome to see what a good animator could do with this guy.

Definitely keeps LW Community posted on any progress.

OnlineRender
01-27-2011, 08:26 AM
It would be awesome to see what a good animator could do with this guy.



I'm going to have a bash with it tonight , maybe go easy on the good animator part , but having a sweet rig , makes it all that easier .

awesome rig btw .

RebelHill
01-27-2011, 08:33 AM
I tend to dismiss 2D IK because I think those explicit pole vector controllers are a blocker towards the fine control of the animation curves

Actually 2D ik is a MUST in LW, its the only way to get solid predictable IK... but really that's the same in other packages also, at least max and maya, its just there the IK plane is integrated into the IK solver eliminating the visibility of this setup.

You can notice quite clearly in this rig that the arms, which are using 2 channel IK on the shoulders, still lock and pop a hell of a lot... very unstable.

Nice stuff otherwise Kurt... Id fix up those arms, and the rest should be good. I also like your adaptation of the foot controller, nice lil touch.

3DGFXStudios
01-27-2011, 08:42 AM
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-31-1296104823.jpg

;)

Hahaha that is funny :D:thumbsup:

OnlineRender
01-27-2011, 09:22 AM
is there a controller to open/close the mouth , Sorry you give something away for a free and then theres somebody wanting extra :) , no biggie if there's not , just incase I was doing something wrong ......

WilliamVaughan
01-27-2011, 09:26 AM
is there a controller to open/close the mouth , Sorry you give something away for a free and then theres somebody wanting extra :) , no biggie if there's not , just incase I was doing something wrong ......

No mouth controls. There's actually no mouth modeled.

OnlineRender
01-27-2011, 09:48 AM
No mouth controls. There's actually no mouth modeled.

cheater :P ,cheers for this again rig responds awesome ,also helps having good typology .:rock:


FROGROCK !"ill have a bash at animating later
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5239/frog2.png

wrench
01-27-2011, 01:57 PM
I showed it to my LightWave students today with the aim of getting them into IK as an example of where it could be pushed to and they loved it! Thanks William and Kurt.

B

OnlineRender
01-27-2011, 02:28 PM
if anybody is serious about animating this character and need help here is a dopesheet .
http://www.animationpost.co.uk/doping/images/p2-a_real_dopesheet.gif

Source :http://www.animationpost.co.uk/doping/2-real-dopesheet.htm

BlueApple
01-27-2011, 06:57 PM
Very generous, and excellent work. Thanks for sharing.

OnlineRender
01-28-2011, 02:31 AM
I spent 3 hrs last night animating the character for about 10 sec of footage lol , I am not a CA esp in Lightwave , but it was good enough to get excited and wanting to do more stuff with this cool guy .

WilliamVaughan
01-28-2011, 05:14 AM
I spent 3 hrs last night animating the character for about 10 sec of footage lol , I am not a CA esp in Lightwave , but it was good enough to get excited and wanting to do more stuff with this cool guy .


A bad rig can be discouraging to new animators.... I know it was for me years ago. Glad you're getting into it. LightWave could use more animators out there... there are so few.

MaDDoX
01-28-2011, 07:12 AM
Actually 2D ik is a MUST in LW, its the only way to get solid predictable IK... but really that's the same in other packages also, at least max and maya, its just there the IK plane is integrated into the IK solver eliminating the visibility of this setup.
I know, it's just the explicit pole which annoys me. I know you shouldn't stop people from using whatever they want, but it's SO bad in terms of getting controllable curves for the actual animation "art" that I keep away from it with a 10-feet pole. Minimum. It's really tough focusing on animation art when the tech part is getting in your way all the time, Mobu implementation of FBIK is the only thing that really lets me focus entirely on animation instead of wasting time thinking "okay, how do I fix this and move that other part now?", that's a huge turn down to me. Even so, once you get to the finishing stages (1s) in Mobu and want to tweak the curves you have to go down to the IK and FK items to tide things up and achieve maximum quality. Sigh, such a technical annoyance, I wish this pain ends some day.


You can notice quite clearly in this rig that the arms, which are using 2 channel IK on the shoulders, still lock and pop a hell of a lot... very unstable.
True, I've faced that problem as well when posing the rig. I don't know why Kurt didn't use an implicit pole vector (ie. with a parent for the rotation at the shoulder) as he did for the leg, it seemed like the obvious choice since he had it figured out for the legs. As it is I'd probably keep the arms in FK the whole time and just IK-pose it with IKB. Of course if I had to, say, fix the hand at the head temporarily I'd be screwed, since IKB's bake can quickly make one feel locked-down into any previous decisions. Hmm.. maybe just use the arms IK really sparringly?

As for the animation challenge, I'd surely take it, it's my thing. Ribbit's character design even gave me a nice idea for a fun animation (I don't do anim "for the heck of it", doesn't make any sense to me), but tbh it'll take some time before I have something, since I'm quite flooded atm. I do intend to get to it though, even if just for the model this is already more inspiring than any free rig available for Maya ;)

PS.: No OnlineRender, you don't *need* a dopesheet to be serious about animating, there are better ways to get proper timing these days ^_^

OnlineRender
01-28-2011, 08:09 AM
PS.: No OnlineRender, you don't *need* a dopesheet to be serious about animating, there are better ways to get proper timing these days ^_^

don't use one :) probably should though .

I don't like to use the graph editor but for CA its a must , my problem is over keying ! and fluency .

RebelHill
01-28-2011, 08:39 AM
I know, it's just the explicit pole which annoys me. I know you shouldn't stop people from using whatever they want, but it's SO bad in terms of getting controllable curves for the actual animation

Well, no... you really dont have to have an exteernal pole vector.

All IK in LW needs to have this "IKplane" as the parent of the IK to produce stable IK... a 2D IK with a parent plane. Now you can either rotate that plane manually, to input the plane twist, or you can point it to a null which then acts like a pole vector... either way, you're stil animating the same control, the only difference is directly or indirectly.

The point of using a pole, is that it has an explicit vector that the IK plane is aligned to, which is helpful in many situations when animating. Since the actual IK limbs, and their planes are children of the root/hip/spine, etc... then often when moving a characters body around, you wind up needing to counter animate the twist of the IK limb, which can be a real pain especially when you need to go back, readjust timing, or when you start laying into curves, and you need to get an easein/out match between the two animated properties.

Having the pole external takes care of this for you, and gives you a lot more freedom to just mush things about without having to fix up your IK planes to match in all the time.

Ofc, the best option, which I use on my rigs, is to make it switchable, so you can animate with either control, and cross key back and forth... allowing you to even use one for quick blocking, before keying off and switching back to the other for refining.

Both controllers have their merits, but each in different situations.

RebelHill
01-28-2011, 09:16 AM
Here's a quick lil vid explaining and comparing the workings of teh MB rig with a similar setup in LW using twists and poles.

MaDDoX
01-28-2011, 03:19 PM
Thanks for the detailed video explanation RH, it really helps describing the scenario we're discussing. When I said the explicit pole I wasn't meaning the "entity", I know that's required by the system, I was really referring to its view-ability/select-ability. Like you said, it's hidden in Mobu, and that's great. That's why in my initial reply I said "I'd just hide the actual pointed knob, tbh". Because I think it's bad for actual animation purposes, the only place where we seem to disagree is that it can be useful for blocking off a scene, I think it's bad no matter what, by the same reason why pure IK for hands (ie. linear translation) generally leads to weird ease-in ease-out curves on the FK rig rotations and/or demand extra clean-up work later to get those same curves right.

RebelHill
01-28-2011, 03:58 PM
That's why in my initial reply I said "I'd just hide the actual pointed knob, tbh".

The problem is you can't do that in LW.

In MB the pole, or Ik workd vector, or whatever it is that the FBIK uses under the hood isn't a user editable control... the control's results get back calculated onto the actual hips rotators themselves, so those are still the only controllers you ever use.

In LW, as well as max, maya, etc... if you want to have IK planes oriented outside of the character's local space, then you have to use the poles... it's either that, or counter animate the IK planes within the character space against any rotations that occur further up the hierarchy than the IK plane itself, which is by far a bigger hassle when trying to animate.

OnlineRender
01-29-2011, 06:50 AM
anybody know a decent workflow to retain all the data from lwo file and import into ZB .

My theory not tried yet "uv map the lwo file export as obj take into ZB texture export map and stick it back on the lwo file "?

any help appreciated in advance , I just want to texture the obj .

cagey5
01-29-2011, 07:29 AM
Well I for one have never animated any form of rig so this should be as good an introduction as any I guess.

I'll have a play around and see if it makes any sort of sense to a complete novice like me.

Thanks William and Kurt for the model. Generous as always.

BlueApple
01-29-2011, 09:36 AM
anybody know a decent workflow to retain all the data from lwo file and import into ZB .

My theory not tried yet "uv map the lwo file export as obj take into ZB texture export map and stick it back on the lwo file "?

any help appreciated in advance , I just want to texture the obj .

Export the UV's obj from Modeler but first have an image applied in the texture channel. Import the OBJ into ZBrush and it will have UVs. You can then paint from scratch, or import the image you had mapped in Modeler via the Texture palette in ZBrush.

ericsmith
01-29-2011, 11:14 AM
Here's a quick lil vid explaining and comparing the workings of teh MB rig with a similar setup in LW using twists and poles.


I wanted to throw in my own two cents here so I did a quick video showing how Maestro could tackle this whole knee control thing.

For some reason, the audio got pitched up a bit, so I sound a little chipmunky, but anyways, here it is:

http://www.stillwaterpictures.com/kneepole.zip

Eric

geo_n
01-29-2011, 12:53 PM
Thanks for this.
I hope there will be lw specific video tutorials on how to make use of these controls in an actual animation session. When to use local vs world, fk, ik, etc.
A character doing different actions. Nothing too complex.
Not just for this rig but the rh rigs as well.
For the maestro rig the vids on their site about how to animate the rigs were quite helpful and I wish there were more.
I'm going thru some digital tutors principal of animation but its for max. Lets have some ca tutorials for lw using these free rigs.

RebelHill
01-29-2011, 03:35 PM
I'm going thru some digital tutors principal of animation but its for max.

Should make no difference... the control systems will be much the same... otherwise, its pretty straight forward... Most folks I know jsut stick with world (pole) vectors for IK all the time, I only leave the local control there to give folks the option, I almost never use it though... Id stick to poles.

As for IK/FK...

Use FK for waves, whips, swings, and arcs, use IK for thrusting or pushing. Thats it, basically.

geo_n
01-30-2011, 08:39 PM
Should make no difference... the control systems will be much the same... otherwise, its pretty straight forward... Most folks I know jsut stick with world (pole) vectors for IK all the time, I only leave the local control there to give folks the option, I almost never use it though... Id stick to poles.

As for IK/FK...

Use FK for waves, whips, swings, and arcs, use IK for thrusting or pushing. Thats it, basically.

Similar controls but people have different animation techniques and how to do the motion. Would love to see lwvers do theirs in a lightwave environment.
For example Eric seems to be a more freeform animator.
From some post of yours I see you do pose to pose in a strict fashion.
Splinegods does pose to pose but not stepped curves.
I wonder how William does his animation.
Currently I'm going through this in my free time.
http://digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=106&pid=351
Its good to see how the animator has his own style and technique. And the exercises are fun.:thumbsup:

OnlineRender
01-31-2011, 01:23 PM
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9479/moonwalk6rgb0072.png

YT : VIDEO Animation :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nICZXH7Dgy0

here is quick dirty render , I had a bigger scene file ,with more action but for some strange reason LW10 decided to corrupt the lws , "nightmare " and going back is not an option ,so I knocked this up quickly , I only have (x) amount of days left on the trial so I will push this is a little bit more .

Great Rig , little bit of poppin but everything works they way its expected ,I am no CA but if you give me rigs like that , It can only get better .

cheers

WilliamVaughan
01-31-2011, 01:26 PM
Fun Moonwalk anim... thanx for posting!

OnlineRender
01-31-2011, 01:52 PM
Fun Moonwalk anim... thanx for posting!

Cheers! , hopefully someone with talent will come along and do your rig justice :)

MaDDoX
01-31-2011, 11:01 PM
The problem is you can't do that in LW.
What, select a pole item and make it invisible?? I'm quite sure you can :) That's what I was talking about, mere workflow preference, albeit based on the way it affects the final animation curves.

I know you can use direct control of pole objects to make the pointing of elbows to some specific region or area easier, but how often do elbows actually work like that? Personally I rather counter animate any such rare scenarios (if I ever face one) than actually have to translate an object to point an elbow.

If you think direct rotation of the bank of a root/offset bone to define the 2D IK plane is not a good enough solution for Lightwave, okay, you're surely the authority here to affirm that. I'm sure you could share some inner details with us if that's the case, it'd be appreciated. Nevertheless, I'd still make the pole item invisible and make it a child of an offset bone at the root, which I could rotate the bank directly and, imo, more intuitively. In that case the pole item would be rotated around, and not translated, which makes a world of a difference - at least for my understanding of proper rotation ease adjustment and rotation curves control.

Of course if you take this concept to the extreme, the whole concept of IK is a poor animation solution, as many purists of the animation art defend, but let's not get down to that :) Let's say there's a certain threshold of "animation shortcuts" which I admit for my workflow and consider as productive without compromise, translating poles to point elbows and knees is just a tad past that.

RebelHill
02-01-2011, 11:05 AM
What, select a pole item and make it invisible?? I'm quite sure you can :)

Well ofc you can hide it... what I meant is you cant just hide it away, ignore it, and pretend it aint there, because to point the IK plane to a vector outside of the characters root/body local space you HAVE to use it.


you can use direct control of pole objects to make the pointing of elbows to some specific region or area easier, but how often do elbows actually work like that?

Quite often actually... It depends on the stance being formed. If you're standing at say, a counter, with hands resting on it (IK), and you twist your upper body, then your elbows tend to point/behave in a body local space manner... however if you lean forward harder, and actually support your body's weight on the arms, and twist the body, then they tend to behave in a world (pole) vector manner. You get this behaviour in arms, and not legs, because in arms, the forarms have twist, which the lower leg does not, making legs more "rigid" in terms of their "plane twist". Also there's the fact that its very rare that your feet are in contact with a surface, but not supporting the body's weight.


If you think direct rotation of the bank of a root/offset bone to define the 2D IK plane is not a good enough solution for Lightwave, okay,

Well no... its the only solution... the same is true in max and maya (and Id wager most otehr packages (MB aside). The difference in max/maya's IK solvers is that the IK plane-root-bone-thing is intergrated into the IK solver, so you don't need to actually have the bone setup in the character. The underlying mechanic is still the same though.


I'd still make the pole item invisible and make it a child of an offset bone at the root,

In which case, there's absolutely no point in having the pole item... (notwithstanding the dependancy issue that you're pointing a bone to a pole which is the child of the item that's pointing toward it), because you've now made it a hierarchical child of the character's local space, and once again, you will have to counter animate every time you need to turn the characters body against the IK, as you no longer have an external vector to point the IK plane towards.

MaDDoX
02-02-2011, 06:07 AM
what I meant is you cant just hide it away, ignore it, and pretend it aint there, because to point the IK plane to a vector outside of the characters root/body local space you HAVE to use it.
Sure, if you want to point to a vector outside of the character parts local space that is. The point I was actually defending was the usage of local part rotation only to pose the elbows, like in Mobu.


if you lean forward harder, and actually support your body's weight on the arms, and twist the body, then they tend to behave in a world (pole) vector manner.
I wouldn't call that a "quite often" scenario since arms are free floating for most animations. Anyways, in that specific case you've listed, in Motion Builder you'd simply pin+reach the hand then pin the elbow and set reach to a high value, yet you probably wouldn't go all the way up to reach = 1 (ie. full-time IK for people who don't know Mobu ingo) to keep things realistic, except if it's some sort of robotic character.

You see, I'm probably spoiled by Mobu's amazing control rig, it's just that in my book it all gets down to keeping the number of controls and settings down while maximizing their flexibility and complementary-ness. It's probably extremely challenging if not downright impossible to replicate the pinning-unpinning in every possible controller for a regular Lightwave/Maya/Blender rig, hence second-rated animation solutions (for reasons I could detail a bit more if it's still unclear) like external poles became the norm.

As it is, from what you're saying apparently the only way in traditional rigs to "pin+reach" the elbow for those cases you mentioned is to use the pole vector and blend to pole mode. In that case the best possible (or least harmful) scenario would probably be keeping the pole object as close as possible to the actual elbow, as to minimize the translation-to-rotation curves distortion on the actual joints animation. That would probably do the trick. Anyways, while on local control mode it'd be of the best interest of interface cleanness to have the pole vectors invisible.

WilliamVaughan
02-04-2011, 05:37 AM
Magma Toad:
http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116562

OnlineRender
02-04-2011, 07:09 AM
that ROCKS , stunning texturing and comp work .

Will the model structure / geomatry change , there is a reason I ask , I have done some more animation " running wall flip " which I must admit for myself it look pretty good , just a matter of tweaking textures ,env and render settings ,hence why I ask , is it possible just to drop the texture maps straight on to the original obj ,either way no biggie I can still uv then texture him myself .

WilliamVaughan
02-04-2011, 07:25 AM
Will the model structure / geomatry change , there is a reason I ask , I have done some more animation " running wall flip " which I must admit for myself it look pretty good , just a matter of tweaking textures ,env and render settings ,hence why I ask , is it possible just to drop the texture maps straight on to the original obj ,either way no biggie I can still uv then texture him myself .

You will be able to select the old model and replace it with the new without issue.

OnlineRender
02-04-2011, 07:28 AM
danke ! excited now , childish I know , but you're like father christmas of 3D ,with a big bag of goodies .

WilliamVaughan
02-04-2011, 12:46 PM
as promised:
http://www.pushingpoints.com/2011/02/magma-toad/

OnlineRender
02-04-2011, 12:50 PM
nice ! appreciated

MaDDoX
02-05-2011, 02:44 PM
You will be able to select the old model and replace it with the new without issue.
Yeah.. I wish I could say that while using Maya.. *_*

Talking of which William, I'm not sure what's the stance on this (it's not mentioned in the license terms), may I tweak the rig to suit my specific animation needs? For example, setting up Plg_IK for the arms and adding secondary/spline controls for the cheeks to emulate a smile, adding a separate-parts proxy for speedier animation, etc? If I'm allowed to do that, would I also be allowed to share the tweaked rig with the community, all due credits respected of course?

I'll understand if you or Kurt don't appreciate the idea for whatever reason.

OnlineRender
02-05-2011, 03:02 PM
While your on the subject ; not bashing rig Kurt its awesome , but something I would like to see is sliders for Fingers ! even just hand open hand shut kinda thing .

WilliamVaughan
02-05-2011, 03:39 PM
Yeah.. I wish I could say that while using Maya.. *_*

Talking of which William, I'm not sure what's the stance on this (it's not mentioned in the license terms), may I tweak the rig to suit my specific animation needs? For example, setting up Plg_IK for the arms and adding secondary/spline controls for the cheeks to emulate a smile, adding a separate-parts proxy for speedier animation, etc? If I'm allowed to do that, would I also be allowed to share the tweaked rig with the community, all due credits respected of course?

I'll understand if you or Kurt don't appreciate the idea for whatever reason.


Edit away!

OnlineRender
02-05-2011, 03:43 PM
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/451/toad1.png

MaDDoX
02-05-2011, 06:30 PM
Edit away!
Awesome, thanks :)


something I would like to see is sliders for Fingers ! even just hand open hand shut kinda thing.
For hand posing I'd recommend you to check a plugin called "Negative Frame Paste Pose" or something like that, quite handy, it allows you to post a full pose from a frame in the negative range (ie. out of your actual animation range). Not sure if it's still around but I probably still have it if you can't find it. One think I like to do is having a fingers-root bone with its bank rotation driving the heading (open/close) rotation of the fingers. In this case it works as an "offset" or as a main rotator, you can still rotate each finger joint for precise posing. Another option is having each finger's root joint bank channel to drive the current and children finger joints heading. This last one is a nice option for Maya rigs, but really no biggie for Lightwave, since you can simply right-click (for "select hierarchy") the parent finger joint for the same effect.

I also intend to include group proxy picks for the head and spine controllers, I've had some hard time selecting them as is - the spine has the neck/head joints as child, which also have some extra stuff as children, so right-clicking on their roots requires additional de-selection.

OnlineRender
02-06-2011, 04:16 AM
OHH IT'S ON !

dirty render.......

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5144/itson.png

jeric_synergy
02-09-2011, 10:50 AM
For hand posing I'd recommend you to check a plugin called "Negative Frame Paste Pose" or something like that...
Not listed in the googles.

The Scientist
02-09-2011, 11:18 AM
OHH IT'S ON !

Nice, I like it.

OnlineRender
02-09-2011, 11:41 AM
Nice, I like it.

you may like these better .
Sorry Proton Thread Hi-jacked

Stunning Rig ,Kurt love working in it , but when you have 2 different rigs in the scene it can get a litttle sluggish "for me "


STREEEEETCH SCREEN TIME
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3664/aquatoad.png

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9145/proton2.png

Big thank you to all the LW artists for there content . without them the image would be nothing .

ianr
02-09-2011, 11:54 AM
God Damn Froggie Bully,you iain't gonna get Core like that.!

OnlineRender
02-09-2011, 12:21 PM
God Damn Froggie Bully,you iain't gonna get Core like that.!

I know its not fair on CORE , Lino I will render you something cool wth CORE ALIEN

The Scientist
02-09-2011, 12:38 PM
Stunning Rig ,Kurt love working in it , but when you have 2 different rigs in the scene it can get a litttle sluggish "for me "


Thanks a lot man, glad you're enjoying it.

And yeah, LW get's kinda slow with multiple characters (which it "should" have no problem with---'note to Newtek').

I'm constantly having to sacrifice speed for capability. So sorry about that.

Thanks again man, good work on these images.

Keep the cool stuff coming.

MaDDoX
02-10-2011, 05:55 AM
you may like these better .
OnlineRender, would you mind some constructive criticism? Some people are really touchy with their artwork, so please don't feel offended by whatever I say. I work with artists on a daily basis, so I'll fully understand if that's the case and just delete the comments :) Ok, with that out of the way:

- You need to work on your hand posing, it's looking really unnatural since the very first screenshot you've posted. Try relaxing or slightly curving the fingers, and giving them progressive rotations (right click on fingers root, rotate). Check your own hand as a reference. In the grabbing pose the opposite happens, there's not enough apparent "pressure" to hold the emissary and raise him up.

- Roid's shoulders are too arched up for no apparent reason. Try to keep the character "comfortable" within the given pose, remember we naturally tend to make the least possible effort at all times.

- Roid is a heavy-torso character with thin legs, it's expect-able that he'll tend to curve down except if not willingly making an effort on the contrary. Try lowering the hips and adjusting his belly weight to convey that weight sense to the viewer and add believability to the image.

- Roid doesn't seem sufficiently subdivided in the render, which can be seen by the straight edges, try increasing the render subdivision setting to 5 or 6.

- The image angle could be fooling me, but apparently the emissary's right hand index/middle fingers aren't properly curving. Fingers tend to rotate proportionally except when in pressure contact with another surface.

- Render wise Roid's surface specular seems a bit too much, his highlights are over-exposed.


And yeah, LW get's kinda slow with multiple characters
That's why you need segmented parts (parented to the joints) to animate multiple characters, just like you had to do with Maya in the past. With deformations disabled Lightwave really flies. Some Maya animators still use that technique just to get "motionbuilder-like" performance with their rigs, Maya is no performance king when it comes to deformations ya know.

To do that in Lightwave, you can simply select the polygons based on the pre-created weight maps and paste it to other layers, I've got a nice script to help with that.

The Scientist
02-10-2011, 09:57 AM
That's why you need segmented parts (parented to the joints) to animate multiple characters, just like you had to do with Maya in the past. With deformations disabled Lightwave really flies. Some Maya animators still use that technique just to get "motionbuilder-like" performance with their rigs, Maya is no performance king when it comes to deformations ya know.

To do that in Lightwave, you can simply select the polygons based on the pre-created weight maps and paste it to other layers, I've got a nice script to help with that.

hmmm

This is very helpful info MaDDox. You may have just altered my work flow a bit. I've been using proxy characters to animate, but all on one layer (with enable deform still on). I'm going to give this a go immediately, thanks.

I'd love to get a peek at the script you're talking about...if at all possible.

Thanks again, I've still got a lot to learn and new info is always welcome.

OnlineRender
02-10-2011, 10:19 AM
OnlineRender, would you mind some constructive criticism? Some people are really touchy with their artwork, so please don't feel offended by whatever I say. I work with artists on a daily basis, so I'll fully understand if that's the case and just delete the comments :) Ok, with that out of the way:

- You need to work on your hand posing, it's looking really unnatural since the very first screenshot you've posted. Try relaxing or slightly curving the fingers, and giving them progressive rotations (right click on fingers root, rotate). Check your own hand as a reference. In the grabbing pose the opposite happens, there's not enough apparent "pressure" to hold the emissary and raise him up.

- Roid's shoulders are too arched up for no apparent reason. Try to keep the character "comfortable" within the given pose, remember we naturally tend to make the least possible effort at all times.

- Roid is a heavy-torso character with thin legs, it's expect-able that he'll tend to curve down except if not willingly making an effort on the contrary. Try lowering the hips and adjusting his belly weight to convey that weight sense to the viewer and add believability to the image.

- Roid doesn't seem sufficiently subdivided in the render, which can be seen by the straight edges, try increasing the render subdivision setting to 5 or 6.

- The image angle could be fooling me, but apparently the emissary's right hand index/middle fingers aren't properly curving. Fingers tend to rotate proportionally except when in pressure contact with another surface.

- Render wise Roid's surface specular seems a bit too much, his highlights are over-exposed.


That's why you need segmented parts (parented to the joints) to animate multiple characters, just like you had to do with Maya in the past. With deformations disabled Lightwave really flies. Some Maya animators still use that technique just to get "motionbuilder-like" performance with their rigs, Maya is no performance king when it comes to deformations ya know.

To do that in Lightwave, you can simply select the polygons based on the pre-created weight maps and paste it to other layers, I've got a nice script to help with that.


Cheers for the feedback , I take any criticism. The good , The bad and The ugly ,so I appreciate the time you took to write ,
I agree with all points above , but in my defence I am no way by any stretch of the imagination a CA artists and I only have another 10 days left on the LW10 trial . "then back to Max" .only reason I messed about with the model is because Kurts Rig is a joy to work with , "easy for me "so I am kinda pushing these renders out the door quickly ,but again thanks for the advice some nice tips ! dually noted .

cheers mate

MaDDoX
02-11-2011, 06:02 AM
I've been using proxy characters to animate, but all on one layer (with enable deform still on). I'm going to give this a go immediately, thanks.
No problem, my pleasure :) Actually I've learned that workflow back in 1999, when IK was still extremely shaky in Lightwave - not to mention deformations were slooow - so I preferred to simply use SockMonkey. People complain that SockMonkey doesn't work with morphs and such, but obviously that's because they've never tried a great plug-in by Joe Alter (Shave&Haircut creator) called "LipService". It provided amazing non-linear morph deformations, with a layer for lipsync and another for expression performance, which could be captured in real time with the mouse (!!). Best yet, its deformation worked flawlessly with SockMonkey, so I got used to this combo. I have ancient animations done with it somewhere in my HD, I'll post it to youtube some time.

So, back to the point, basically I used to slice all the parts (which are also used by sockmonkey) and export them to different objects. I'd then proceed to animate normally with only the separate parts, which perfectly convey the character volume, and deformations disabled, it was extremely fast even with those ancient machines.. Talking of which, I never understood why the LW manual recommends you to use bounding boxes for the parts, it completely defeats the purpose imo. Once the body animation was finished, I would enable deformations to check the lipservice deformation for the facial animation part. It worked like a charm! I know some studios used puppet master (SockMonkey precursor) back then but I'm not 100% sure if they actually disabled deformations or used lipservice, so maybe I was alone in the world with this approach? :) Anyways, with the current technology advances in Lightwave, I'd simply parent those parts to the bones, adding them to a layer (layersMC) for easily toggling them on or off. Only drawback with this approach is obviously not being able to get feedback from secondary deformations like facial/shoulder bones, etc, but this is generally done in a later animation pass anyways, so you'd be able to disable all character bones but the ones you're performing secondary animation on, using layers for ease of selection. Another approach, which's obviously more time-consuming to set up, is having all parts external to the character mesh and following each related bone. This way you'd simply drag the root bone/joint out of the character to stop influencing - and deforming - the non-relevant character(s), giving you full performance to only the character you want to work with while you'd still have the proxy-parts for the other characters (to keep the character-to-character interaction feedback).


I'd love to get a peek at the script you're talking about...if at all possible.
Sure, I'll paste it here for you to try it. All credits go to Chris Peterson, to make things easier I've just slightly modified the script to automatically select the next empty layer (it's very cool not needing to save to separate objects nowadays heh). Just copy and paste it to a file named cp_SendToEmpty.ls and add it as a plug-in, map to a shortcut, etc. The way I use it is to simply select each weight map (there's a publicly available script that allows you to scroll along the list using the arrow keys) using the regular selection window, and hit the shortcut to paste it to the next empty layer. Works pretty quickly as is, although obviously I could optimize it to automatically loop through all weightmaps, etc, but free time is basically non-existent for me lately :( Maybe someone could join the helping-hand fray and make this change to the lscript and share with the community? That'd be awesome! Well, here it goes:


@warnings
@version 2.6
@name cp_SendToEmpty

/*
cp_SendToNext
by Chris Peterson

This script will take the selected geometry, cut it, and paste in the next layer
and then switch back to the first layer.

Last updated: October 10, 2008
Minor Modification by MaDDoX (Jan 20, 2011) - Select next empty layer before paste
*/

main {
undogroupbegin();
selmode(USER);
fg = lyrfg();
cut();
empty = lyrempty();
lyrsetfg(empty[1]);
paste();
lyrsetfg(fg[1]);
undogroupend();
}