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prd444
01-11-2011, 01:23 PM
I lost my USB dongle on my way to Europe. Got US sales on the phone..."29 bucks for the replacement" they said....so why I got 180 euros, about 230 bucks, estimate from european dealer?.....1minute eh uh ah got me to the customer care line....2min ...dancing and waiting on line/buzz went around/ got me to "do you want fill out a replacement aplication for 200 bucks?"...
Newtek....way to go...I love to be ripped off....pay 200$ for 1$ piece of crap?...thank you, thank you..I love you guys...

cresshead
01-11-2011, 01:35 PM
so $29 sounds cool..looks like newtek EU had a communication glitch..they ARE human ya know not robots!

erikals
01-11-2011, 11:25 PM
earlier,... at the NT headquarters...>

http://www.danthomas.me/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/danger-Will-Robinson.gif

 

Phil
01-11-2011, 11:35 PM
My understanding is that the price varies depending on the situation. If the dongle was stolen and there is a police report, NT charge only shipping to replace it. If you lost it, and cannot prove that you lost it, they charge you much more because how are they to know that you aren't simply trying to get a second seat for no real fee?

I think that there is some discretion available as well, so perhaps they waived the charge (mostly) in your case...

archijam
01-12-2011, 12:12 AM
I paid about 100 euro if I remember correctly.

But the example is true- imagine going to Autodesk saying you lost your serial number, can I have a new one .. I'd like to hear the response ;)

Dongles are tricky that way.

OnlineRender
01-12-2011, 01:09 AM
earlier,... at the NT headquarters...>

http://www.danthomas.me/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/danger-Will-Robinson.gif



Danger Danger my sensor indicate a CORE BREACH

Phil
01-12-2011, 02:12 AM
This is why dongles suck. NewTek should switch to a nice licensing scheme like the one Luxology uses for modo. You can never lose that license or otherwise be inconvenienced by the protection.

What's your solution then for 3rd parties who want to use license control? I assume that you've investigated this and found a cost effective option - from the discussions I've had with 3rd parties, they would sure like to hear about it. The dongle with LW provides a relatively effective, free of charge, option for license control with regard to 3rd parties. They really don't want to lose that because the alternatives are to either close up shop or massively increase prices due to the upfront fees and royalty charges from vendors of license control systems.

For Luxology, it's not been an issue because (until very recently) there's been no SDK at all for 3rd parties.

I do find the dongle irritating, but primarily because it's not possible to get an identical replacement. Given the number of uniquely useful plugins that have no active developer any more, that's a significant downside.

Phil
01-12-2011, 02:52 AM
As far as I know third parties can tie their plug-ins to the modo license. This will prevent "casual copying" just as effectively as a dongle.

Luxology don't make the SDK available without a license, do they? I was really hoping to discover more detail than the fairly lightweight stuff in the PDFs. That would also make this particular situation clearer.

From what I have gathered from discussions with various developers, the main issue is that, for mainstream protection systems, the host app is not allowed to expose that to addons - they each have to implement/license the protection themselves. I only have a few addons for Maya, but they all do their own thing - some use just a serial number, but others require their own license servers.

JBT27
01-12-2011, 03:08 AM
It's just another example of how archaic the dongle system is ... for the user anyway ...

Despite the arguments to the contrary, it's still a penalty to the user.

Julian.

juanjgon
01-12-2011, 03:14 AM
I really hate the dongles and like how Modo licensing works. I hope NT could soon get new licensing system without dongles.

erikals
01-12-2011, 03:27 AM
the dongle ain't that bad...
sure, not perfect, but what is...

gerry_g
01-12-2011, 05:11 AM
'the dongle ain't that bad...'

Until you forget to pack it with your laptop when you travel and can't do any work, I like Lux's scheme but Lightwave allows me to have multiple copies open by moving the dongle from machine to machine where as Lux's solution means if I open a second copy the first has to be relegated to slave mode. On balance I prefer the dongle despite being a royal PITA.

lardbros
01-12-2011, 05:25 AM
'the dongle ain't that bad...'

Until you forget to pack it with your laptop when you travel and can't do any work, I like Lux's scheme but Lightwave allows me to have multiple copies open by moving the dongle from machine to machine where as Lux's solution means if I open a second copy the first has to be relegated to slave mode. On balance I prefer the dongle despite being a royal PITA.

Is that Newtek's 'scheme' is it??

I'd imagine transferring your dongle from machine to machine is actually against the user agreement... I don't actually know, does it say you can do this is their docs?

Kuzey
01-12-2011, 05:36 AM
Is that Newtek's 'scheme' is it??

I'd imagine transferring your dongle from machine to machine is actually against the user agreement... I don't actually know, does it say you can do this is their docs?

This has been talked about before but I can't remember what the outcome was?

As far as the docs go...I think you can have a copy on a second machine, not sure if you can have both running at the same time or not?

Kuzey

gerry_g
01-12-2011, 05:40 AM
AFAIK it is and quite common, you concern would be reasonable if say a studio was sharing one licence but bear in mind I am the sole user of all these machines, I would also like to point out that I don't go to church on sunday if you want to give me hard time about anything else '-)

gerry_g
01-12-2011, 05:44 AM
also like to point out that I am usually modelling on one while rendering on the other which is no different than having one copy open but with advantage of having more memory and greater processor bandwidth available to both machines

Nicolas Jordan
01-12-2011, 05:59 AM
This is why dongles suck. NewTek should switch to a nice licensing scheme like the one Luxology uses for modo. You can never lose that license or otherwise be inconvenienced by the protection.

Yep, I figure since Mr Peebler had worked for Newtek on the tech support staff at one point in his career many years ago he probably has first hand experience as why a dongle based licensing system could be a problem for users and a strain on support staff. That's probably part of the reason why Luxology opted to not go with a dongle but it was also much easier for them since they were building a new product from the ground up anyway.

Tartiflette
01-12-2011, 06:10 AM
This is why dongles suck. NewTek should switch to a nice licensing scheme like the one Luxology uses for modo. You can never lose that license or otherwise be inconvenienced by the protection.
Yep, I figure since Mr Peebler had worked for Newtek on the tech support staff at one point in his career many years ago he probably has first hand experience as why a dongle based licensing system could be a problem for users and a strain on support staff. That's probably part of the reason why Luxology opted to not go with a dongle but it was also much easier for them since they were building a new product from the ground up anyway.
Well, i was all for that Luxology's license, since it's a real plus when you have a laptop and don't want to break the dongle by doing any bad movement... until i discovered that, even if it's a little better than Autodesk licenses, it doesn't allow you to resell the license when you'd like to ! :devil:

In fact, you can resell the license only if you are the original buyer of the license, which means that in the case you've bought it second hand, the license is tied to you forever, you have no chance to sell it again if you see you've made a mistake... :(

Luxology isn't really fair in that respect, because the terms & conditions on their website doesn't reflect that. They are however aware of that problem (a little bit because of me... :D) and should change the terms on the website.

So as you can see there isn't any perfect licensing system, but after thought, i think the dongle system is probably the best (beside blender's one ! :D) one can have, from a client PoV.

Just my 2 cents here...


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

lino.grandi
01-12-2011, 07:18 AM
The real problem with the dongle is just not only the fact that you could lose it....you can forget it!

Luxology Licensing system is really something I like. Your license il always available everywhere. You just need an intenet connection.

About third party developers...they should simply adapt their "protection" stuff.

KILL THE DONGLE! :angel:

RebelHill
01-12-2011, 07:18 AM
Lets face it...

Can anyone name a SINGLE major app from any publisher where a crack isnt available after jsut a few minutes of clicking around the interweb??

Security on apps should, I believe get in the users way as little as possible.

The protection used on thigns like maya is a REAL pain if you want to be able to move it to different machines cos of breakdowns or upgrades... Hell, even MSoffice... you buy legit, you use legit, but go over the install number limit even for legitimate reasons and its a pain to get it re-authorised... I know plenty of folks who've jsut given up at various times, and shelled out for a new copy to save themselves the headache.

So I like the dongle for this reason if no other...

With the AD/MS way of working, the activation, and usability of your product lies with the vendor, and how quickly/well/whatever they treat you when you run into issues.

With the dongle... if it gets lost, forgotten... at least Ive only got myself to blame for my predicament, which I find a lot less stressful than being blockaded by some other party.

Afterall, you never hear folks blaming car manufacturers for still using KEYS, that can be lost, stolen, damaged, etc... but I bet if those same manufacturers were left with the sole discretion of sending/not sending clever codes every time folks got locked out of their motors when they were already late for work in a morning... there'd be riots.

Lightwolf
01-12-2011, 07:35 AM
Lets face it...

Can anyone name a SINGLE major app from any publisher where a crack isnt available after jsut a few minutes of clicking around the interweb??
The problem is that this isn't an argument for anything in this context ;)

After all, let's face it, without any licensing most people just wouldn't pay for their software at all (just look at the people offering free stuff in conjunction with a donate button - and their return).


Security on apps should, I believe get in the users way as little as possible.
Absolutely. However, there's more to getting in the way than just dealing with the licensing scheme itself.

If you rely on a third party infrastructure then you'd also want to make sure that their needs are catered for (as Phil mentioned) because otherwise it will drive the prices up for third party add-ons as well.

The dongle in LW actually makes it fairly easy to hook into. I've no idea if modo has third party hooks, many other applications certainly don't (i.e. Max or Fusion come to mind here).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
01-12-2011, 07:36 AM
About third party developers...they should simply adapt their "protection" stuff.
Adapt to what?

Cheers,
Mike

jasonwestmas
01-12-2011, 07:41 AM
I've never been one to loose my keys and I have no issues with the dongle. A year ago my experience with broken licenses when using Zbrush and XSI have been rather annoying. All of a sudden the license stops working and then I have to wait another 24 hours to get a new one. But that was a year ago and since then AD and Pix have gotten their act together on that issue. The 3D coat license is nice and easy and it has no dongle. I simply enter a license code and voilla. Of course I'm not so sure how secure that meathod is, probably not very.

RebelHill
01-12-2011, 07:47 AM
The problem is that this isn't an argument for anything in this context ;)

Well sorta... the argument is that no system is more secure than any other in terms of cracks being available. So whilst security systems themselves shouldnt necessarily just be abandoned, it does mean that preventing those securities becoming an obstacle to legitimate use should be a much higher priority.

Going mack to the car key thing though... my friend pete (petes) keeps his dongle on his car keys, so if those go walkabouts he cant even get to work to use LW in the first place.. smart move (I think)...

Of course there was the morning he went off to a shoot, leaving me behind needing to set something running on his comp... but since he drove, his dongle went with him.

Ofc, this was easily fixed with a lil phone call to NT who were able to provide a new licence to let me use my dongle on his comp in his absence...

But then I was in NY, and NT were in texas, and being but a humble brit I didnt have a bloody clue about the differences between eastern time, central time, who was where, etc... So I did have a good couple of hours of hair tearing waiting for someone to get into the NT offices that morning, but those feelings were much helped by the smoking of a million fags, and drinking a quart of half n half.

Now Im rambling.

jasonwestmas
01-12-2011, 07:54 AM
Lol, I don't think I would literally put my dongle on my key chain :D

Lightwolf
01-12-2011, 08:02 AM
Well sorta... the argument is that no system is more secure than any other in terms of cracks being available. So whilst security systems themselves shouldnt necessarily just be abandoned, it does mean that preventing those securities becoming an obstacle to legitimate use should be a much higher priority.
True. But there certainly are levels of security which make the crack harder... or require subsequent cracks of new versions (as opposed to re-using the same patch) etc.
Which obviously means that the copy protection itself is just one part of preventing people from using cracks.

But time invested in the protection does certainly pay off to an extent (we just have different priorities).

In the end though, I'd rather develop features for customers than inventing a new licensing scheme. And buying/licensing one doesn't seem to be an option either (either not cross platform or extremely expensive including up-front cost - certainly not viable for LW plug-ins unless we double prices).

Cheers,
Mike

thomascheng
01-12-2011, 11:01 AM
I think internet based key checks is the best way to go. There should be an off line mode that will last 14 days before the next check for users traveling and in places without internet access. The only down side is that it makes it harder to sell you license copy. I'm sure Newtek will be happy with that.

Lightwolf
01-12-2011, 11:02 AM
I think internet based key checks is the best way to go.
Which doesn't work with studios that completely shut workstations off the internet (for good reasons as well).

Cheers,
Mike

Tartiflette
01-12-2011, 01:33 PM
Yeah, the more i think of it, the more i find the dongle an excellent solution. :lwicon:

Probably not the Graal, as any copy protection still is an obstacle for the honest client, but it's practical, it lets you install on any machine you'd like (Thank you to Newtek to have been among the first one to permit the usage of lightWave either on mac or PC, when almost every other company was selling "Mac only" or "PC only" license...), you just have to bring your key with you and you're set ! :thumbsup:

And most of all, you have the right to make a mistake and resell the license without any problem, without any fee. And you can sell licenses you've got from someone who got it from someone, and so on without a problem too. The only thing needed is the dongle, just brillant and quite unique in the 3D industry afaik.

The only thing i can think of would be to have a very small key for laptop users, instead of the one that is shipped now... The same kind of USB key Logitech is using for some of their mouse would be just perfect ! :)


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

Matt
01-12-2011, 01:57 PM
Bottomline, there is no perfect solution, otherwise everyone would be using it, hence the many forms of copy protection.

Although, protection is pretty much useless these days, everything gets cracked if your program is popular, it only stops casual copying if the program hasn't been cracked and placed on the internet.

Speaking of which, whoever is cracking LightWave third party plugins (and someone on this forum will know who it is) and placing them on a well known crack forum, should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

They are cracking reasonably priced plugins that are essential for LightWave, by doing so they risk losing the few developers we have, way to go.

Dexter2999
01-12-2011, 02:14 PM
Bottomline, there is no perfect solution, otherwise everyone would be using it, hence the many forms of copy protection.


I like having the dongle. It goes where I go from computer to computer, no internet needed. But even though I don't agree with their opinion, I see a significant portion of the user base is unhappy. To better meet the users needs, perhaps have the option available on purchase?

Download only purchases with an internet registration being hardware free and no shipping perhaps could be a lowest tier option?
Download software with dongle shipment as the next?
Ship disks and dongle next?
Disks, dongle, and manuals the highest?

Take a page from BestBuy electronics here. Where they sell "extended waranties" offer "insurance" for your dongle? I know there used to be a company on the internet that did this. They would basically do a "dongle dump" and keep it on file. Should you lose/break your dongle, they would make you another from your file info. But if I remember correctly it wasn't cheap by any means. Newtek could also do this perhaps?

Cageman
01-12-2011, 02:22 PM
Adapt to what?

Cheers,
Mike

FlexLM!!!

:D

Seriously though... for the type of protection LWs dongle allows for, not just the app itself, but it is free for third party to make use of it as well, it is probably the best one out there. Time will tell how well Modos license system will work with third party tools and how it will deal with floating licenses/unlimited licenses. Think about a third party dev selling 10 lics of his plugin to a studio with unlimited licenses of the base package, how on earth will this work without some sort of license server? While a license server is in many ways a good way to make things not locked to a specific computer or dongle, it will in many cases only work smoothly when not adding third party tools into the mix. Once you start to do that, you will get ******, even more so if there are separate licenses for using the tool vs rendering the results.

*RANT*

Shave for Maya7 was such a pain to install, and after a couple of weeks trying to get the renderlics working on the renderfarm, with 10-20 emails to Joe Alter, but never got a reply, we simply gave up and snatched a couple of cracks (we were then in dire need to get renders started, or tell the client that we wouldn't be able to make the deadline).

In relation to this, I got infiniMap Pro less then a month back, and have since then done some testcontent to render on the renderfarm at work. Yesterday, I brought my content and the infiniMap plugin to work. Started up LW that is used on the renderfarm (discovery mode btw), added the infiniMap plugin, closed LW. Opened the LW-content on my real license at work (after adding the infiniMap plugin there as well). All works fine. While I don't have a lic for infiniMap at work currently, the content that I had created at home worked just fine, except that I couldn't change any values within things that were related to infiniMap texturenodes. But F9 worked great. So, I added the content to Muster and BAM! All 24 rendernodes (a mix of 6-core AMDs and Dual QuadCORE Intels) rendered the infiniMap content flawlessly. No glitch, no weirdness, everything just worked. This also makes it very easy for us when we need to expand our renderfarm to over 100 machines (which we have done a couple of times).

Now... if a hardware dongle is what it takes to offer this type of simplicity, compared to license servers, then I'm not sure what everyone is complaining about... however, many here might not have seen the severe trouble license serves can cause; we have it very, very good with LW regarding rendering and licensing! Obviously because of this, those that develop for LW also tend to be very generous about renderlics. Actually, have anyone seen any plugin for LW that would require you to buy additional renderlicenses?

*RANT OFF*

:)

Tartiflette
01-12-2011, 03:07 PM
I would never have thought i would say that one day, but i say it loud now : keep the dongle NT as it's probably the best thing out there for licensed software ! :thumbsup:


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

Cageman
01-12-2011, 03:10 PM
Great idea! :thumbsup:

Hmm...

What about a dongle simulator software that could copy the information on a dongle to a single file, and also mount it as if you actually inserted the real dongle. Like you can rip a DVD or CD into a .iso image and then use a tool like DaemonTools to mount the .iso as if you actually inserted the physical CD/DVD.

Now, this would still become a security risk, because now it is as safe as a serial number, on the other hand, someone who would actually take such a file from his own dongle, bundle it with an installation file of LW and send it off to one of those crack-sites, would be a complete fool.

But..well.. not sure it is a good idea or not. I know that if such a tool would have existed, I would have done a backup and put the dongle in a safe somewhere.

:D

Dexter2999
01-12-2011, 03:18 PM
There is dongle dump and hasp emulator software out there. I played with it a few years back trying to get LW to work on a Linux box.

Never got it to work just right. I ran out of patience (I am easily distracted). And I have no idea how it would work with plug ins.

wrench
01-12-2011, 03:32 PM
The only downside to NewTek's dongle for me is the hassle involved if you have more than one. The fact that you can write multiple license.keys to a single license.key file means you never have to be worried about which dongle goes with what machine, but with the dongle being so precious, it only takes an oversight to lose one very easily.

If on the other hand, NewTek could offer a network dongle with unique IDs for licences so that each LightWave could have its own individual Lock ID where necessary (let's say you only want to pay Michael Wolf for four licences of the excellent Infinimap because you figure only your three layout and rendering guys need it, not the seven modellers you also have at your company), then that one dongle could be kept very securely - even better if it could be queried over a VPN so that employees from your company on location could a) use company LightWave and b) not have to take a dongle to do so, then it would be sooo good.

B

Red_Oddity
01-12-2011, 04:04 PM
I kinda like both.

For example, we used Fusion with dongles, but since it is kinda pricey and we have more work stations than licenses, we switched to a FlexLM server, this way we can install it on any machine, and use it on any machine until we run out of non active licenses, it's wonderful when a company gives you the option to use either a dongle or license server, this way you can much easier serve different kind of users with different kind of needs.

The Autodesk license for Maya has been a lot less painful lately as well, it isn't tied to an ethernet controller anymore though, which could act as a poorman's (illegal mind you) dongle. But they too, give you the option to use both. Getting Autodesk or their resellers to get of their asses to make the change to a floating license is an other story all together though.

Adobe on the other hand has the absolute worst protection scheme of all, you are supposed to be allowed to activate or deactivate a license when you want to, and their server should keep track whether or not you have a license activated or not.
Problem is, the amount you can activate is a mystery, activations magically disappear on their servers, as owner of the software you can't check the amount of activations (at a certain point the software will just stop activating, telling you need to contact customer support), then you get told you can only get 5 more activations on your license (so when their server decides to crap out again, or your installed version is broken and won't run or uninstall, you basically have a nice collection of coasters, in our case a collection of 4 coasters per machine, worth 1000 euros a piece.)
Now we just are too afraid to even touch that activation/deactivation menu button.


No, the dongle ain't that bad, when it works it works and if it dies or you loose it you quite easily can order a new one.

adk
01-12-2011, 04:12 PM
Hmm...

What about a dongle simulator software that could copy the information on a dongle to a single file, and also mount it as if you actually inserted the real dongle. Like you can rip a DVD or CD into a .iso image and then use a tool like DaemonTools to mount the .iso as if you actually inserted the physical CD/DVD.

Now, this would still become a security risk, because now it is as safe as a serial number, on the other hand, someone who would actually take such a file from his own dongle, bundle it with an installation file of LW and send it off to one of those crack-sites, would be a complete fool.

But..well.. not sure it is a good idea or not. I know that if such a tool would have existed, I would have done a backup and put the dongle in a safe somewhere.

:D
I might run the ire of some here but I mention this purely for information.

Such a tool does exist & I'm always surprised that more people don't know about it. It's actually quite a neat solution for those that use one dongle/license across multiple locations & want to keep the dongle in a safe spot. The good thing, security wise, is that you can not simply copy the image file and use willy nilly across any machine. You physically need the dongle at each machine that you want to use in order to generate a unique & valid image file.

Essentially what Dexter2999 mentions.

Cryonic
01-12-2011, 04:26 PM
If done right, then a new dongle shouldn't require anything from the user for licensing. We had a dongle break on one of our instrument systems. Cost of replacement was $50 (including shipping) and the dongle that was sent had been programmed to replace the previous with the same key. So, the software didn't need to be reconfigured. If Newtek could do this for their customers, then third party plugins would be unaffected by a "change" in dongle since it is the same ID as the plugin was registered to.

Cageman
01-12-2011, 04:28 PM
I might run the ire of some here but I mention this purely for information.

Such a tool does exist & I'm always surprised that more people don't know about it. It's actually quite a neat solution for those that use one dongle/license across multiple locations & want to keep the dongle in a safe spot. The good thing, security wise, is that you can not simply copy the image file and use willy nilly across any machine. You physically need the dongle at each machine that you want to use in order to generate a unique & valid image file.

Essentially what Dexter2999 mentions.

Hmm...sounds interresting....

I do buy alot of plugins/scripts to expand my personal license at home, but I do not have the same flexibility at work, and sometimes it can take a long time before what has been approved to be purchased, actually is purchased. In such situations, I usually allready own a personal LIC of said plugin or script, so I end up taking my dongle back and forth between my home and work in order to keep the workpace up. Sometimes, I also want to test things within a production environment where things aren't as "open" as I have in my network at home, to see if a script/plugin operates within a more tightly secured network. And again, I bring my personal dongle back and forth. Sometimes I forget to bring the dongle with me when leave home, or vice versa, which usually is quite frustrating.

So, I've now, probably, described the life of many LWavers in this day and age. :D

Anyho... once these two machines (in my case it would be my workstation at home and workstation at work), have been initialized with this tool using the dongle, will I need to bring the dongle into any of them again? Or can I put it somewhere safe and take good care of it?

:)

adk
01-12-2011, 04:55 PM
Hmm...sounds interresting....

I do buy alot of plugins/scripts to expand my personal license at home, but I do not have the same flexibility at work, and sometimes it can take a long time before what has been approved to be purchased, actually is purchased. In such situations, I usually allready own a personal LIC of said plugin or script, so I end up taking my dongle back and forth between my home and work in order to keep the workpace up. Sometimes, I also want to test things within a production environment where things aren't as "open" as I have in my network at home, to see if a script/plugin operates within a more tightly secured network. And again, I bring my personal dongle back and forth. Sometimes I forget to bring the dongle with me when leave home, or vice versa, which usually is quite frustrating.

So, I've now, probably, described the life of many LWavers in this day and age. :D

:)

Yeah that's pretty much me in a nutshell.





Anyho... once these two machines (in my case it would be my workstation at home and workstation at work), have been initialized with this tool using the dongle, will I need to bring the dongle into any of them again? Or can I put it somewhere safe and take good care of it?

:)

Definitely the latter.

Obviously one can abuse this to the n'th degree, but the fact that each new machine requires you to have the dongle essentially eliminates rampant abuse.

If you ever loose / damage the dongle you're in pretty much the same boat as everyone else.

Lightwolf
01-12-2011, 05:03 PM
All works fine. While I don't have a lic for infiniMap at work currently, the content that I had created at home worked just fine, except that I couldn't change any values within things that were related to infiniMap texturenodes. But F9 worked great. So, I added the content to Muster and BAM! All 24 rendernodes (a mix of 6-core AMDs and Dual QuadCORE Intels) rendered the infiniMap content flawlessly. No glitch, no weirdness, everything just worked.
Thank you... that's precisely how it's meant to work... :D

Cheers,
Mike

Goumba Tony
01-12-2011, 05:49 PM
Newtek....way to go...I love to be ripped off....pay 200$ for 1$ piece of crap?...thank you, thank you..I love you guys...

I went through this like four years ago. I discovered I had lost my dongle. I'm a hobbyist and when I was told $200, I decided I would check out Blender, I could not justify the cost. I just was not willing to pay $200 for the dongle.

Stupidly I had the LW dongle on a chain with a dongle from another app. That dongle was a Rainbow Duo dongle as well. When I contacted that company, they replaced it for FREE.

Not only did they replace it for free, but the support person said "I notice that you got your dongle with 1.0, and we're now at 1.5." Even though I had gotten online updates, they sent me CDs with the newest version and some plugins. Neat! All for FREE.

Now, I can understand NT not giving a replacement for free, but $200 is ridiculous.

[Edit: I miraculously found my dongles in my laptop bag, maybe six months ago. Sure glad I didn't pay that $200. :) ]

GraphXs
01-12-2011, 08:31 PM
I like the dongle, and itz with my car keys! The perfect place for it! :)

Phil
01-13-2011, 04:21 AM
This... would be ideal. This is actually why I don't replace my ONE old parallel port dongle - it has Dynamic Realities plugins licensed to it (among others) and I would lose ALL of that if I ended up upgrading to a USB version. Ultimately it won't be of any real use, but should I EVER want to go back and revisit some old scenes.... It would be absolutely WONDERFUL if Newtek could actually do this and would elimiate MUCH of the pain that users face with broken dongles.

Dave Vrba holds the rights to the DR plugins now, according to Andy F. Sadly, though, I've not been able to get any response from Dave - NT must be working him too hard.

That said, I faced similar issues with Dynamite and after getting fed up with it, I removed the protection sufficiently that it works for me. I paid for it, I bent over backward for the developer trying to help him out with SDK queries and he rewarded me by simply disappearing. Prem did the same thing with SE/DSFX 2 (although that has no DRM) and so did Dosch Design, the developer behind Keytrak, etc.

I am sick and tired of developers leaving their customers high and dry. If you no longer want to be in the marketplace, the very least you could do would be to remove the DRM from a final build of your product.

To that extent, I'm happy that there are countermeasures available to DRM - I can therefore continue to keep using what I paid for after the developer has lost interest or demands a fee to allow me to continue using what I paid for. The developer got their cash, and continue to hold it, so I should be entitled to take whatever action needed to continue to use what I paid for.

On the dongle question, it's apparently out of NT's hands. I'm told that duplicate dongle IDs do exist, but it seems to be random and NT either cannot or will not request a replacement with a specific ID. I swear that this used to be possible back in the mid-90s, but haven't found anything in writing to back that up.

Lamont
01-13-2011, 07:18 AM
I like the dongle: No need to call in or re-activate with new hardware. But I also like Autodesk/Adobe system where I have my info stored online and can log in and get at it. Autodesk was a bit of a pain to deal with since day one, so it's like "how they are usually". Adobe is cool, although how many times you can activate over a period of time is a mystery. The rep said there really isn't a set number, just a flag that pops up and they investigate it. Same with Microsoft, I was told that if I went over a certain frequency, a flag popped up. It did not kill my lic, it just forced me to call in to verify. Then they reset the number.

ZBrush used to be a pain in the rear. Plug in a new USB drive and it freaked out.

And what's the deal with Adobe and Autodesk trying to up-sell on every support call?!

If having a choice of lic scheme is available, I'd choose no dongle if it meant the info was available in an account online (and secure as secure can be in this day and age).

jasonwestmas
01-13-2011, 07:31 AM
I like the dongle: No need to call in or re-activate with new hardware. But I also like Autodesk/Adobe system where I have my info stored online and can log in and get at it. Autodesk was a bit of a pain to deal with since day one, so it's like "how they are usually". Adobe is cool, although how many times you can activate over a period of time is a mystery. The rep said there really isn't a set number, just a flag that pops up and they investigate it. Same with Microsoft, I was told that if I went over a certain frequency, a flag popped up. It did not kill my lic, it just forced me to call in to verify. Then they reset the number.

ZBrush used to be a pain in the rear. Plug in a new USB drive and it freaked out.

And what's the deal with Adobe and Autodesk trying to up-sell on every support call?!

If having a choice of lic scheme is available, I'd choose no dongle if it meant the info was available in an account online (and secure as secure can be in this day and age).

Yeah, a dongle key is no nonsense in and of itself. No strings attached (except if you loose it) to it as you have pointed out with other licensing.

mattclary
01-13-2011, 07:34 AM
Is that Newtek's 'scheme' is it??

I'd imagine transferring your dongle from machine to machine is actually against the user agreement... I don't actually know, does it say you can do this is their docs?


No, I would say it's working exactly as they intended. You can only run LightWave on one machine at a time, they don't care where that machine is. Personally, I have no problem with a dongle. I need a key to start my car, I need a key to start LightWave.

Titus
01-13-2011, 08:08 AM
I like the dongle, hassle free. I can migrate LW or Fusion to any computer of my office, SpeedEdit is more problematic so is tied to a machine, if I need to use it then there's need to change place with one of the animators.

colkai
01-13-2011, 08:15 AM
I love the dongle, one dongle, one USB drive, good to go, anywhere :)

Phil
01-13-2011, 08:28 AM
I love the dongle, one dongle, one USB drive, good to go, anywhere :)

As long as you have admin rights in order to install the driver :D :devil:

Lamont
01-13-2011, 08:30 AM
No, I would say it's working exactly as they intended. You can only run LightWave on one machine at a time, they don't care where that machine is. Personally, I have no problem with a dongle. I need a key to start my car, I need a key to start LightWave.Well, actually I think what that post meant was you can start up LW, and remove the dongle (with it running), then move to another machine and start up LW (and remove the dongle) and so on and so fourth. Everything renders as if the dongle is in there. LW doesn't check after start up I guess.

Weetos
01-13-2011, 08:36 AM
Yep but I know some third party plugins do check the dongle... so make sure your scene files don't use them before trying that ;)

colkai
01-13-2011, 01:02 PM
As long as you have admin rights in order to install the driver :D :devil:

True, I'll give you that.
But it's nice to know that when I go looking for a replacement laptop, I can run in discovery mode to test the OGL handling at least. :)

Chris S. (Fez)
01-13-2011, 06:03 PM
The only one I know of is trueart plugins. I use a pc but if i want to use a Mac then I have to buy all the trueart plugins again :( The plugins are useful but in hindsight better off just buying modo to get the functionality! It works out to be the better deal

Still nothing like "Easy Mesh" or "Easy Split" in Modo...in terms of speed and workflow. Love em.

Phil
01-13-2011, 11:44 PM
Actually, have anyone seen any plugin for LW that would require you to buy additional renderlicenses?


e-on's products all require per-node licensing for rendering. You don't get any nodes for free. For Ozone, the rendernode licenses (up through version 4 at least) could be node-locked, but for Vue xStream, they require a license server to be made available. The license server is $500 by itself, which is a huge additional expense when setting up a small farm - if you're buying a larger number of licenses, it's less aggravating because it's a single cost.

According to the developer, AnythingGoos doesn't require additional license fees, but it does require that you have the keyfile accessible to all nodes like a number of other plugins that use serial numbers that aren't tied to a dongle.

CaptainMarlowe
01-14-2011, 03:06 AM
I thought you would STILL have to buy each node in addition to the license server - at least that was my understanding reading through the various items on their site. I would LOVE to be wrong about this though. Then again... I can't afford xStream anymore - too expensive and can't upgrade from v6 anymore... have to buy to full version all over again now. Another reason to really like the way Newtek continues to do business with its customers! :thumbsup:

:agree:

That's why I left Vue after Vue 5 (Vue 6 was so buggy on Mac taht when it was finally useful, Vue 7 was announced already... but since I had skipped V6, I was supposed to buy V7 at full price...) and for the same reason that I won't try to go for Ozone 5. I didn't upgrade from Ozone 3 to Ozone 4 because it was 32 bits only for Mac, and I was using 9.6.1 OB, and if it is 64 bits in Ozone 5, then I'll have to go for full price again.
So, I'll do without.
As for dongles, I find that this is not such a bad system. Having the plug-ins licenses attached to it is rather a good thing to me.

Phil
01-14-2011, 03:59 AM
I thought you would STILL have to buy each node in addition to the license server - at least that was my understanding reading through the various items on their site. I would LOVE to be wrong about this though. Then again... I can't afford xStream anymore - too expensive and can't upgrade from v6 anymore... have to buy to full version all over again now. Another reason to really like the way Newtek continues to do business with its customers! :thumbsup:

Yes. You need per-node, plus the single license server charge. Apologies if that wasn't clear. That's why it's a problem. I have complained loudly about this and got a steep discount on the license server, but I still resent having to pay for the license control system like this. I had expected node-locked rendernode licenses, just like you can get for Ozone, but didn't discover the license server requirement until after I paid for rendernode licenses.

The upfront cost to upgrading was rather severe, however, the really nice aspect of things is that a (IMO reasonable) single maintenance fee covers the application plus all render nodes for upgrades during the subsequent 12 months. That's taken some of the sting out and makes the upgrades more cost effective than Ozone, for example, especially given that the releases are also more frequent than Ozone.

My favourite example of really poor DRM is MacDrive. A single activation is permitted and should you need to reinstall, or change machine, you will have to grovel to their customer service to get them to lift the lock and allow you to use what you paid for. Woe betide you if it's close to a weekend - you will be waiting at least 4 days for a reply.

UnCommonGrafx
01-14-2011, 04:09 AM
Dongles forever!!!
The portability of the system is unbeatable by any other, barring disaster. Taking out any catastrophe scenario, Blender has the number one spot of portability-friendliness.
Dongles second.
Licensing schemes based on some server in space? My motionbuilder and ZB licenses have shown me the ... strength of carrying ten dongles.

I think, though, that this is based on ten years of freelancing. Studio guys, teachers and those with brick-and-mortar space are generally in position to only need two installations. I'm now a teacher such that the two installations work without flaw.

donlimpio
01-14-2011, 05:09 AM
Let's not forget that without LW's current copy-protection there would be no office jokes about my 'tiny purple dongle'. :)

lardbros
01-14-2011, 06:49 AM
I think internet based key checks is the best way to go. There should be an off line mode that will last 14 days before the next check for users traveling and in places without internet access. The only down side is that it makes it harder to sell you license copy. I'm sure Newtek will be happy with that.

I'm sure Newtek would be happy, but I certainly wouldn't.

The places that don't have internet access to their workstations are crippled by nearly EVERY company having a 'download' button, but no website to download the update from... or a license checking system that sends packets out to the developer every so often.

3DCoat was going to do this with their network licensing system, but I had an brief chat over email, and he decided to not do it that way. There is a similar system in place that will check every so often, but if you're not online, it won't cease to work!

If all our software needed an internet connection to 'check' if the license was valid, we'd be well and truly stuffed... I'd go back to playing with my spirograph.

Dexter2999
01-14-2011, 09:05 AM
I'm sure Newtek would be happy, but I certainly wouldn't.

The places that don't have internet access to their workstations are crippled by nearly EVERY company having a 'download' button, but no website to download the update from... or a license checking system that sends packets out to the developer every so often.

3DCoat was going to do this with their network licensing system, but I had an brief chat over email, and he decided to not do it that way. There is a similar system in place that will check every so often, but if you're not online, it won't cease to work!

If all our software needed an internet connection to 'check' if the license was valid, we'd be well and truly stuffed... I'd go back to playing with my spirograph.

This is why I have a problem with internet licensing and also "online help" files. Instead of having help files on a local installation. Screw "the cloud" I want local.

GandB
01-14-2011, 09:08 AM
In all honesty, and as an average home-user; I don't have too much of a beef with the dongle system. The dongle is plugged into the back of my monitor (vertical), and barring someone purposely going behind there and messing with it...I've never had any problems. I don't use LW on a laptop; but I can see issues arising with it, I would suggest getting a flexible USB extension to plug into the laptop to keep from having "accidents" on the go.

From the sounds of it; the small replacement cost of the dongle outweighs the headaches that most other company's systems put you through. Unless NT wants to go with a straight "one-time" activation code for LW; the dongle is probably the best compromise, in my opinion.

-Keith