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Kuzey
01-10-2011, 03:17 PM
I thought I'd add this here as well, it's late, so the thinking might be a little off...but the idea is a good one...me thinks..hehe.

Worn Edges in LW feature request (http://kuzey3d.blogspot.com/2011/01/worn-edges-with-lw-nodes-feature.html)

Kuzey

SubDProxy
01-10-2011, 06:02 PM
Have you tried the ee_Grit Node by Kevein Phillips. You can download it from here. http://katastro.fi/~eetu/gritnode/

* Nevermind, I just read the posts and it stated you used the grit Node. I believe you can reverse it to the outside edges really quickly but it has been a while. I will try to figure out how I did it again and post it up.

SubDproxy

Dodgy
01-10-2011, 08:27 PM
Use Dpont's edge node as the input to your material mixer.

Kuzey
01-11-2011, 06:20 AM
I actually tried the edge node...well...kinda :D

I got spooked at the pre-process that it undertakes and Dpont's warning on possible long process times.

I presume, the pre-process is there to work out what to do with the edges when faking bevels etc. I wish there was a option to by-pass that process...when not trying to do complicated stuff like that.

I'll have to try again and this time let it finish :D

Kuzey

Simon
01-11-2011, 01:41 PM
Hi have you tried the grit node with negative sensitivity?

Simon
01-11-2011, 01:46 PM
Here's the scene.

Kuzey
01-11-2011, 02:52 PM
Hi have you tried the grit node with negative sensitivity?

Haha...brilliant...I never even thought of using negative values :thumbsup:

I'll study the example scene very closely.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Kuzey

Tobian
01-11-2011, 05:37 PM
If you try and use the edge shader on complex models it explodes. it works fine on a few hundred polys, nothing more.

The grit node trick.. ooohhh I am going to have to try this!! :)

COBRASoft
01-11-2011, 07:21 PM
Aaagghhh, I forgot about the negative value for the Gritt node :(!

JohnMarchant
01-11-2011, 07:54 PM
Haha...brilliant...I never even thought of using negative values :thumbsup:

I'll study the example scene very closely.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Kuzey

I will expect that in the next presets update now.

JeffrySG
01-11-2011, 10:16 PM
Here's the scene.

Ohhh wow oh wow! I was going through all different settings with the grit but totally forgot to even try negative values! Simply brilliant! Cheers!
Can't wait to try and fool with it again!

dpont
01-12-2011, 12:32 AM
If you try and use the edge shader on complex models it explodes. it works fine on a few hundred polys, nothing more...

..If it explodes, it is not caused by the number of polygons,
I reach thousand of polys in a few seconds here with
my poor laptop, depends of course what you mean by
a 'complex' model, I have seen many situations where
a fast cleanup or different workflow in Modeler can
fix this kind of issue.

btw, Edge node is certainly not the more appropriate
shader for trashing surfaces convex edges.

Denis.

Kuzey
01-12-2011, 05:15 AM
I will expect that in the next presets update now.

Haha....I'll see what I can do :)

At the moment, I'm just tacking Simon's node tree onto one of the PPG metal presets. I hope to be able to break it apart, so I can use it with Material Mixer node...but still, it's looking interesting.

Kuzey

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 05:19 AM
Haha....I'll see what I can do :)

At the moment, I'm just tacking Simon's node tree onto one of the PPG metal presets. I hope to be able to break it apart, so I can use it with Material Mixer node...but still, it's looking interesting.

Kuzey

Well look at the great presets you have now and think of the possibilities with a negative grit node on them.

There's money to be made here mate, mine for a start off

Kuzey
01-12-2011, 05:30 AM
Well look at the great presets you have now and think of the possibilities with a negative grit node on them.

There's money to be made here mate, mine for a start off

Point taken....will do my best and I'll post some renders tomorrow :D

Kuzey

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 05:50 AM
Point taken....will do my best and I'll post some renders tomorrow :D

Kuzey

Just to add to your woes mate, there is also a good tutorial in there i bet :):):).

Been looking at the girder scene, there are some possibilities, its more the control of where you want it and by how much, also to give the worn edges some sort of bump or displacement probably negative again to give it a chipped look so the white is kind of a mm or so lower than the red, sorry have an aversion to pink so mines red

Simon
01-12-2011, 06:16 AM
The difficult part I found was getting some randomness in the white chipped edges but still keeping the white parts sharp, ie it's either chipped or not. If that makes sense. But I suppose for some surfaces you want it blend more smoothly so it's more scuffed than chipped. Smoother convex shapes tended to show up the polygon edges when I was playing around, sharp 90 degree edges worked better. Interested to see other people's results!

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 06:21 AM
Probably the only way to have that much control is going to be weight mapped chips. Would be nice for us if NT gave us a worn edges node

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 06:57 AM
Just having a play

Tobian
01-12-2011, 07:29 AM
My play with a SIBL scene last night :)

it's a very cool trick, and the shader hit wasn't too bad. I will have to try it out on one of my big models to see if it still is the case! :)

dpont, My station is about 9 million polies.. the computer just hangs there if I have more than a few hundred thousand, with the edge shader. You may have done some bug fixes of speed improvements since the last time I tried it but my computer didn't like it :D

Kuzey
01-12-2011, 07:40 AM
Just having a play


My play with a SIBL scene last night :)

it's a very cool trick, and the shader hit wasn't too bad. I will have to try it out on one of my big models to see if it still is the case! :)


Nice going :thumbsup:

Are you guys just playing with the settings in Simon's setup or have you attached connections to other nodes etc?

Kuzey

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 07:41 AM
My play with a SIBL scene last night :)

it's a very cool trick, and the shader hit wasn't too bad. I will have to try it out on one of my big models to see if it still is the case! :)

dpont, My station is about 9 million polies.. the computer just hangs there if I have more than a few hundred thousand, with the edge shader. You may have done some bug fixes of speed improvements since the last time I tried it but my computer didn't like it :D

Nice mate will have to use an sIBL as well it think

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 07:46 AM
Here's something weird the VPR render is putting in geometry that is not there on the model. Is VPR meant to triangulate everything first

Tobian
01-12-2011, 08:13 AM
My setup uses Simon's as a mask, which I then use to drive colour, diff and spec, via Fresnels. I'll post up the node in a bit.

John, I was getting those same issues in VPR, but also you can see them to a limited extent on the regular render, especially on the segments of the round section. Probably a threshold issue. I haven't experimented with how Simon set up the node group yet, as I am not exactly sure what it's doing, just that it works nicely! :)

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 08:17 AM
My setup uses Simon's as a mask, which I then use to drive colour, diff and spec, via Fresnels. I'll post up the node in a bit.

John, I was getting those same issues in VPR, but also you can see them to a limited extent on the regular render, especially on the segments of the round section. Probably a threshold issue. I haven't experimented with how Simon set up the node group yet, as I am not exactly sure what it's doing, just that it works nicely! :)

Yeah but you have to wonder why it would do it, i mean the geometry does not exist and why tri's and not quads. Interested to see your node, ive added Anything Goos (Digital Carvers Guild), lots more control than the grit node, but alas not free

archijam
01-12-2011, 08:19 AM
hm .. can't load gritnode with OSX LW10. Anyone else have this issue ?

dpont
01-12-2011, 08:21 AM
...dpont, My station is about 9 million polies.. the computer just hangs there if I have more than a few hundred thousand, with the edge shader. You may have done some bug fixes of speed improvements since the last time I tried it but my computer didn't like it :D

Yes, 9 million polys is a bit higher than "a few hundred polys, nothing more" like you wrote before..

Denis.

JeffrySG
01-12-2011, 09:00 AM
hm .. can't load gritnode with OSX LW10. Anyone else have this issue ?

It's working for me. But I run in 32bit mode. Make sure you are using the .plugin file too. Not the .p.

Tobian
01-12-2011, 09:16 AM
Dpont. Normally when I 'test' stuff I only use parts of the model, so it's more the 500k - 1 million poly count. It's just if I wanted to use it for the full model it's around that number...

John. As far as I know LW triangulates ngons at render time, I think. If you have nonplanar shading issues, you can see how LW shades using a triangulated version of the mesh, rather than say, true ngon shading, which would interpolate the whole ngon.

Here's the surface, and the little post trick I did with some global occlusion shader, via the DP pixel filter. The final image was brightened a little, as that is a dark environment, and the pixel filter doesn't show in the VPR preview, but it's quite responsive, even with the DP reflections node! :)

cagey5
01-12-2011, 09:28 AM
Thanks Simon for the original scene. I've certainly learned something about nodes from checking your set-up.

Attached is my version where I used pretty much the same set-up to drive two materials [Carpaint and Conductor]

Tobian
01-12-2011, 09:37 AM
yeah that's much as I have done, I just did it manually, using a dielectric and metallic Fresnel :)

Svenart
01-12-2011, 10:16 AM
I see this thread now the first time, and again it has payed to read in the lightwave forums carefully.... I ever dreamed of this, and you guys did it, great !!!!

I wished I would have some time so I can test this, but I will, soon.


well done all!!!

Simon
01-12-2011, 10:36 AM
Playing with some different textures ...

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 10:36 AM
Dpont. Normally when I 'test' stuff I only use parts of the model, so it's more the 500k - 1 million poly count. It's just if I wanted to use it for the full model it's around that number...

John. As far as I know LW triangulates ngons at render time, I think. If you have nonplanar shading issues, you can see how LW shades using a triangulated version of the mesh, rather than say, true ngon shading, which would interpolate the whole ngon.

Here's the surface, and the little post trick I did with some global occlusion shader, via the DP pixel filter. The final image was brightened a little, as that is a dark environment, and the pixel filter doesn't show in the VPR preview, but it's quite responsive, even with the DP reflections node! :)

Nice indeed, can you share the node, or scene with the sIBL stripped out.

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 10:38 AM
Playing with some different textures ...

Very nice indeed mate, if a little Pink (Yuk), i bet Kuzey is looking at this and thinking, oh my god now im going to have to look at all this for my next presets

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 10:40 AM
John. As far as I know LW triangulates ngons at render time, I think. If you have nonplanar shading issues, you can see how LW shades using a triangulated version of the mesh, rather than say, true ngon shading, which would interpolate the whole ngon.

See learn something new everyday, did not know that, wish it would use quads and not tris or at least give us the choice.

Tobian
01-12-2011, 10:45 AM
no, quads triangulate too. try and make a really nonplanar quad and see what happens (well if it renders properly hehe).

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 10:49 AM
no, quads triangulate too. try and make a really nonplanar quad and see what happens (well if it renders properly hehe).

Well thats going to be the problem for grit node then. AnythingGoos does not seem to have that problem

Tobian
01-12-2011, 10:50 AM
Yeah what is that btw, I've not seen it before?

Simon
01-12-2011, 10:52 AM
Very nice indeed mate, if a little Pink (Yuk), i bet Kuzey is looking at this and thinking, oh my god now im going to have to look at all this for my next presets

Yes it was meant to be coppery but looks a bit washed out. I need to understand this linear thing with the colour space options I think.

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 10:58 AM
Yeah what is that btw, I've not seen it before?

Search for Digital Carvers Guide AnythingGoos, i believe it started off as a carrera plugin and has been ported to LW, its very good, similar to grit node but allot more control and options, however its not free, not sure if there is a demo, cost $35


http://www.digitalcarversguild.com/plugin.php?ProductId=17

COBRASoft
01-12-2011, 11:03 AM
Interesting renders here :).

Simon: Matt will make a tut around the CS stuff of LWIO. I'm also having problems with it.

JeffrySG
01-12-2011, 11:22 AM
Search for Digital Carvers Guide AnythingGoos, i believe it started off as a carrera plugin and has been ported to LW, its very good, similar to grit node but allot more control and options, however its not free, not sure if there is a demo, cost $35


http://www.digitalcarversguild.com/plugin.php?ProductId=17

cool... I was wondering what that node was... I'll have to look into it a bit! :)

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Interesting renders here :).

Simon: Matt will make a tut around the CS stuff of LWIO. I'm also having problems with it.

Good idea, its a grey area for quite a few of us and its caught me out a few times.

Tobian
01-12-2011, 11:33 AM
Ahh interesting. yes I think I have seen it before, but probably avoided it because of the cash, i am not replete with it :)

Simon set colour correct OpenGL in the CS and set your display colour space to sRGB (or monitor profile or whatever) - unfortunately, I found a bug in the CS - it doesn't colour correct any of the node editor colours, so you have to do it by eye. Fortunately the CS colour corrects the whole display so you can see if it looks wrong to your eye. (I think LW10 is now gold?! excuse me if this is privileged info?!?!)

I realised today that the skylight had got turned off by mistake, and it looks much better with it on :)

here's the scene, sans the SIBL textures, but they are the standard one's from 'old industrial hall', available from the SIBL site.

I use DP's pixel filter, DP's reflection node, part of the DPkit, Lightwolf's cache node, and remap node (from DB&W website) and the SG_AmbOccNode which can be swapped for another for you macheads, set to 1m range, I just prefer it :)

If you want the chrome to be shinier, increase the second Fresnel value.

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 11:41 AM
Ahh interesting. yes I think I have seen it before, but probably avoided it because of the cash, i am not replete with it :)

Simon set colour correct OpenGL in the CS and set your display colour space to sRGB (or monitor profile or whatever) - unfortunately, I found a bug in the CS - it doesn't colour correct any of the node editor colours, so you have to do it by eye. Fortunately the CS colour corrects the whole display so you can see if it looks wrong to your eye. (I think LW10 is now gold?! excuse me if this is privileged info?!?!)

I realised today that the skylight had got turned off by mistake, and it looks much better with it on :)

here's the scene, sans the SIBL textures, but they are the standard one's from 'old industrial hall', available from the SIBL site.

I use DP's pixel filter, DP's reflection node, part of the DPkit, Lightwolf's cache node, and remap node (from DB&W website) and the SG_AmbOccNode which can be swapped for another for you macheads, set to 1m range, I just prefer it :)

If you want the chrome to be shinier, increase the second Fresnel value.

Thanks allot mate, will have a peek later.

zapper1998
01-12-2011, 11:55 AM
This is so cool




91772

works great thank you



Michael

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 12:02 PM
This is so cool




91772

works great thank you



Michael

Nice image indeed mate

Tobian
01-12-2011, 12:08 PM
Nice test Zapper! I can see the poly-line problem showing up more though.. hmmm

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 12:13 PM
Yeah i think the grit node needs more control on angles, if you could give a min and max anle for grittiness that might help to get rid of the polyline problem

Kuzey
01-12-2011, 01:26 PM
Excellent stuff guys...this thread is certainly hotting up :thumbsup:

Here's my first go...nothing major, but a little hint of what's to come. I'm getting some freaky cool stuff happening and some wonderful side effects as well....

*cough* burnt metal *cough*

Those are for tomorrow :D

Kuzey

Kuzey
01-12-2011, 01:28 PM
Thanks Simon for the original scene. I've certainly learned something about nodes from checking your set-up.

Attached is my version where I used pretty much the same set-up to drive two materials [Carpaint and Conductor]

Cagey....are you using the Material Mixer node?

In any case, I'd love to see a screen grab of the node tree :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Simon
01-12-2011, 01:34 PM
Interesting renders here :).

Simon: Matt will make a tut around the CS stuff of LWIO. I'm also having problems with it.

I look forward to that :) as it was thanks to one of Matt's vids I finally understood why images are gamma corrected. I've seen the old vid Matt did from ages ago when the linear colour space options were first in the beta, I think it was even from 2009, but most of the options have changed since then.

funk
01-12-2011, 01:59 PM
This is awesome. Thanks Simon for the original scene! I changed mine quite a bit. I used 2 grit nodes (at 90 and -90) so I could get the inner and outer edges.

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 02:15 PM
This is awesome. Thanks Simon for the original scene! I changed mine quite a bit. I used 2 grit nodes (at 90 and -90) so I could get the inner and outer edges.

Thats coming along great, you have really got the bump and chipping looking quite good now

cagey5
01-12-2011, 02:22 PM
Cagey....are you using the Material Mixer node?

In any case, I'd love to see a screen grab of the node tree :thumbsup:

Kuzey

I'm not sure I saved it in which case I'll redo it but may be a while. In the meantime here's an alternative not using grit node at all.

Simon
01-12-2011, 02:29 PM
This is awesome. Thanks Simon for the original scene! I changed mine quite a bit. I used 2 grit nodes (at 90 and -90) so I could get the inner and outer edges.

Pleased it proved useful! It's interesting to see everyone's versions.

Kuzey
01-12-2011, 02:33 PM
I'm not sure I saved it in which case I'll redo it but may be a while. In the meantime here's an alternative not using grit node at all.

Haha...groovy...it's almost hypnotizing...must look awaaaaaaaay :thumbsup:

Kuzey

dpont
01-12-2011, 02:35 PM
...dpont, My station is about 9 million polies.. the computer just hangs there if I have more than a few hundred thousand, with the edge shader. You may have done some bug fixes of speed improvements since the last time I tried it but my computer didn't like it :D

Yes, I improved the preprocess speed (win32 yet),
in Edge and Curvature nodes,
almost 2x faster, but could depend of the model.

91784

Denis.

zapper1998
01-12-2011, 02:41 PM
This is awesome. Thanks Simon for the original scene! I changed mine quite a bit. I used 2 grit nodes (at 90 and -90) so I could get the inner and outer edges.

Can u please ... Share the node setup please...
I want to tear it apart... please

Tobian
01-12-2011, 03:38 PM
Funk, your version is pretty awesome, especially the bump, I couldn't get much of an effect with it in mine. Cagey5, what did you use then? That looks really good!
and dopont, I shall have to look into them both again then! :D

cagey5
01-12-2011, 03:38 PM
Cagey....are you using the Material Mixer node?

In any case, I'd love to see a screen grab of the node tree :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Node tree as attached. All pretty straightforward. The colours in the gradient are insignificant as they come from the two materials obviously.

Tobian
01-12-2011, 03:43 PM
Oh, I thought you said you hadn't used the grit node at all? :)

and as a note to people, mixing materials will result in much slower renders. It'll be working fine for simple scenes, but for something more complex...

funk
01-12-2011, 03:51 PM
For those who wanted to see my nodes, here's a zip of the lw10 scene.

edit: Woops fixed the scene so it loads correctly :)

cagey5
01-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Yes, I improved the preprocess speed (win32 yet),
in Edge and Curvature nodes,
almost 2x faster, but could depend of the model.

91784

Denis.

Interesting. I'll have to try that. The picture I posted above took about 20 -25 minutes to render largely due to the pre-process for curvature node [64bit LW10] I'll try it with 32 bit and see what difference I get.


Funk, your version is pretty awesome, especially the bump, I couldn't get much of an effect with it in mine. Cagey5, what did you use then? That looks really good!
and dopont, I shall have to look into them both again then! :D

As mentioned above, I used the curvature node. Yes. You really should check them out again.

I've attached my node tree for the image. Ignore the crazy gradient. It was my attempt at figuring out what was happening.



[edit] Just spotted your other comment Tobian. Sorry for the confusion. This thread is moving too quick. The girder image I posted used grit node and that is what I responded to Kuzey with. The gun image I didn't. :) Hope that's clear. :thumbsup:

Tobian
01-12-2011, 04:04 PM
Thanks to you both, I shall have to have a look at that, and try it out. Unfortunately the curvatures node won't be as much fun in VPR as it's got a pre-process, which I don't think work with VPR?

cagey5
01-12-2011, 04:07 PM
Thanks to you both, I shall have to have a look at that, and try it out. Unfortunately the curvatures node won't be as much fun in VPR as it's got a pre-process, which I don't think work with VPR?

Yes it does. But it pre-processes it before it starts to render for the first time. Reasonably quick after that depending on what gets altered.

cagey5
01-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Node tree as attached. All pretty straightforward. The colours in the gradient are insignificant as they come from the two materials obviously.

I've just spotted a problem with this tree node I've posted. I was wondering why the 'worn' parts in the background render look white rather than reflective as shown in my first image.

It's due to me tidying up the flow and driving the mixer from the alpha rather than the colour channal which I did originally. I'll post an update tomorrow.

Simon
01-12-2011, 04:45 PM
Does Denis's curvature node ignore occlusion and just shade the surface based on how convex or concave it is??

funk
01-12-2011, 05:53 PM
I've been experimenting with dp edge + dp ao to get the same "edge mask" as my previous example which uses ee_gritnode.

Render times:
2 x ee_gritnode = 20s
DP Edge + DP AO = 13s

You can probably get them looking almost identical. The DP stuff is always surprising me :)

Tobian
01-12-2011, 06:15 PM
Stupid question Funk: Does the edge node not invert like the grit node? If so can you use it instead, as it's of more use to measure the angle of geometry than it is to measure the occluding rays, as something moving near the object would change the occlusion...

funk
01-12-2011, 06:36 PM
Stupid question Funk: Does the edge node not invert like the grit node? If so can you use it instead, as it's of more use to measure the angle of geometry than it is to measure the occluding rays, as something moving near the object would change the occlusion...

Good point about the occlusion. I tried negative numbers in the edge node but it didnt work. Even without the AO it still gets close.

Maybe we can talk Denis into doing his own grit node :)

Edit: the only reason I tried is because negative values in the gritnode seem to cause some problems. I see faint edges detected (triangulated polys) on flat planes etc

JohnMarchant
01-12-2011, 06:41 PM
I've been experimenting with dp edge + dp ao to get the same "edge mask" as my previous example which uses ee_gritnode.

Render times:
2 x ee_gritnode = 20s
DP Edge + DP AO = 13s

You can probably get them looking almost identical. The DP stuff is always surprising me :)

Yeah denis's stuff is always a surprise to me to. Good comparision though

funk
01-12-2011, 06:54 PM
Here's a render using DP edge only (render time 6s).

Tobian
01-12-2011, 07:20 PM
Yeah I'd love it if Denis did a dedicated version of a grit-node style shader, where you could specify convex and or concave, a margin and then use the regular texturing inputs to break it up (which has worked really well in these examples).

Funk, how did you get the concave edges to highlight, and I notice that the disk intersection isn't working :( (probably because the geometry is not joined)

COBRASoft
01-12-2011, 07:49 PM
DPont is amazing, proven again by Funk. :D

funk
01-12-2011, 07:56 PM
@Tobian I didnt do anything special. It does it by default.

(Edit: Actually I enabled "Edged holes" to get some of the ones it misses)

Yeah the disc intersection isnt joined. I just checked.

funk
01-12-2011, 09:19 PM
Note: Denis released a new dpkit and the edge shader seems to be broken (its detecting edges it shouldnt be around the 2 top discs). Minimum angle is set to 89.52

Update: A New fixed version is already up :)

dpont
01-13-2011, 01:14 AM
...the edge shader seems to be broken (its detecting edges it shouldnt be around the 2 top discs)...

Yes angle measurement was too much anticipated,
caused by too much pressure in speed improvement..
I fixed it in the win32 version yet, almost same
rendering time here.

Denis.

funk
01-13-2011, 01:19 AM
Thanks Denis!

Kuzey
01-13-2011, 06:11 AM
Excellent stuff :thumbsup:

Here's another couple from me done yesterday:

Kuzey

Kuzey
01-13-2011, 06:13 AM
Node tree as attached. All pretty straightforward. The colours in the gradient are insignificant as they come from the two materials obviously.

haha...that looks simple, I was expecting something more complex...nice work!!


Oh, I thought you said you hadn't used the grit node at all? :)

and as a note to people, mixing materials will result in much slower renders. It'll be working fine for simple scenes, but for something more complex...

I have found this to be very true....sometimes the render time doubles or triples. I had one of my netsuke renders took 3 hours...when the others took about 50 minutes :eek:

Kuzey

Tobian
01-13-2011, 08:12 AM
Thanks Denis. I'll download it when the 64bit version is propagated, and give it a whirl! :)

and yes, remember wth each material, a new diffuse, reflection etc is being calculated, even if it's not used. It's why it's better to use one material, and multiple shaders, or, in the case of masks like this (where materials are not being layered) just use the mask data to drive the variables, like glossiness, colour etc. Funk. try applying your new cool mask to my material setup (the point before the cache node is just the mask generation).

zapper1998
01-13-2011, 09:44 AM
*





Man are these "NODES" just something or what ..... :)








going to get another beer ....:beerchug:





Michael

JeffrySG
01-13-2011, 10:45 AM
Excellent stuff :thumbsup:

Here's another couple from me done yesterday:

Kuzey

Those are looking really great! Love the 2nd one especially.

I haven't had any time to fool with these yet. Want to get into the grit with these settings and try Dennis' edge node also!

Kuzey
01-13-2011, 01:49 PM
Those are looking really great! Love the 2nd one especially.

I haven't had any time to fool with these yet. Want to get into the grit with these settings and try Dennis' edge node also!

Don't forget to post the renders when you can :D

Kuzey

JohnMarchant
01-13-2011, 02:25 PM
Really liking this. Even when its on the mesh edges it gives it a cracked look

funk
01-13-2011, 03:14 PM
Thanks Denis. I'll download it when the 64bit version is propagated, and give it a whirl! :)

and yes, remember wth each material, a new diffuse, reflection etc is being calculated, even if it's not used. It's why it's better to use one material, and multiple shaders, or, in the case of masks like this (where materials are not being layered) just use the mask data to drive the variables, like glossiness, colour etc. Funk. try applying your new cool mask to my material setup (the point before the cache node is just the mask generation).

I was doing some comparisons between masking everything using 1 material vs using a material mixer. I could barely see any difference in render times with the presets I created. This will depend on your models and materials though.

I do optimise stuff though. Thats why I tried using dp edge instead of gritnode since it was about 4 times faster

JeffrySG
01-13-2011, 03:37 PM
Just a quick test to see what I could get just using Denis' edge node. No grit here. I'll post the node set up too. Not too focused on the final texture yet, just getting the chipping where I want it first.

91819

91820

dpont
01-13-2011, 11:57 PM
Thanks Denis. I'll download it when the 64bit version is propagated, and give it a whirl!...

The win64 version has been 'propagated',
Marvin added also some speed optimizations
for in this x64 version of DP Kit.

Thanks Marvin,
Denis.

funk
01-14-2011, 01:18 AM
Thanks again Denis and Marvin!

Denis... would you consider doing a DP_GritNode? :)

We need something faster and more accurate than ee_gritnode that handles concave and convex edges.

I'm just assuming you could base it off the dp edge code.

PeT
01-14-2011, 02:06 AM
Yes, I improved the preprocess speed (win32 yet),
in Edge and Curvature nodes, almost 2x faster, but could depend of the model.
Denis.
merci, dear denis .. for all your work @ community,
I really love espacially your edge and curvature nodes !!!

http://www.rendering.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10586

:bowdown:

http://www.latal.de/pet/bilder/ScanGun66.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thanks also to kuzey and the other nodal-freaks for this interesting thread,
the daily 5 minutes fame @ our german LW news :

http://rendering.de/nano.cms/Lightwave/Lightwavenews/

salut for the moment
PeT

JohnMarchant
01-14-2011, 02:52 AM
Thanks again Denis and Marvin!

Denis... would you consider doing a DP_GritNode? :)

We need something faster and more accurate than ee_gritnode that handles concave and convex edges.

I'm just assuming you could base it off the dp edge code.

Yeah that would really be a help Denis

dpont
01-14-2011, 03:09 AM
...
We need something faster and more accurate than ee_gritnode that handles concave and convex edges...

Edge node or Curvature nodes handle both
concave and convex edges, with an accurate
geometry analysis, except that the geometry
must be in one piece, all polys connected.

Grit node is a raytracer based on the Spot
normal, for handling convex edge it should
take the inversed normal, you could ask to
Eetu for this feature request, here's a trick
to inversed the normal, using the DP Filter
Replace Spot node,

91842

91841

Or using one Grit node only with a randomized
inversion of the normal,

91844

91843

Denis.

Kuzey
01-14-2011, 05:39 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thanks also to kuzey and the other nodal-freaks for this interesting thread,
the daily 5 minutes fame @ our german LW news :

http://rendering.de/nano.cms/Lightwave/Lightwavenews/

salut for the moment
PeT

Haha...coolness...many thanks :thumbsup:


Edge node or Curvature nodes handle both
concave and convex edges, with an accurate
geometry analysis, except that the geometry
must be in one piece, all polys connected.

Denis.

Ahhh...that could explain why layout seemed to freeze when using edge node on my PPG model...I had to force quit after ten minutes.

Ooooooh.....I'll have to look at this thing called "Replace Spot node"...super stuff!!

:thumbsup:


Kuzey

funk
01-14-2011, 09:30 AM
Grit node is a raytracer based on the Spot
normal, for handling convex edge it should
take the inversed normal, you could ask to
Eetu for this feature request, here's a trick
to inversed the normal, using the DP Filter
Replace Spot node

Thanks for that node example Denis. That actually gets the same result as using -90 sensitivity in gritnode, but without those random edge errors I was complaining about!

Overall, I think it might be better to use dp edge and fix the model so all geometry is connected (it renders faster)

Edit: Info for less node savvy users like me. The multiply node in Denis' example is set B XYZ to -1 (for inverting)

Tobian
01-14-2011, 09:40 AM
Ahh I was wondering how he achieved that! If you have maths nodes with open ends tell us what you typed in please! :D

Most of my models are done that way so it's not a problem, but I think once you get past a few hundred thousand polies the edge node struggles. I will try it out though, with it's speed improvements! :D

funk
01-14-2011, 09:54 AM
Tobian: you may be right. I havent tried edge node on any huge poly models yet

dpont
01-14-2011, 10:52 AM
Well Edge node is mainly designed for simulating
clean or eroded rounded/beveled edges
(i.e for specular highlight effect)
by perturbing the normal to avoid more geometry.

A complex model never needs 'edging'
all surfaces, separating object into different
pieces of geometry and surfaces could be a good
strategy for limiting the preprocess.

For noisying surfaces only, Grit node is surely
a better solution.

91850

91849

Edit: The settings of the Logic node in the
previous post for concave-convex edges
with one Grit node.

91857

Denis.

kevman3d
01-16-2011, 12:18 PM
Wow! Nice thread - and great advice here. Thanks to everybody here for the great tips and tutorials. As always, there's never a day when someone doesn't come up with some kind of groovy way to use tools. :thumbsup:


Have you tried the ee_Grit Node by Kevein Phillips.

lol! I can only WISH it was by me - I only did a tutorial using it. I think that's somewhat a case of user confusion. :D

Dreamer
01-16-2011, 04:20 PM
The node editor is so deep. I've been going over this thread and deconstructing the edge and grit nodes. My questions are many. I need to sort them out for a bit.

cagey5
01-16-2011, 06:13 PM
Nothing to add other than my last render. It's fun to keep adding nodes and see how it changes things.

Tobian
01-17-2011, 09:08 AM
You know I didn't think you had made it Kevman :) I was thinking that you should mess on with these tricks for your D9 stuff, as it would make for some awesome texturing, as they use worn edge-type-effects a lot on their stuff! :)

daforum
01-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Just been playing with funks version and creating another version of worn edges too....

(No grit node, used dp edge instead)

kevman3d
01-17-2011, 05:53 PM
I was thinking that you should mess on with these tricks for your D9 stuff, as it would make for some awesome texturing, as they use worn edge-type-effects a lot on their stuff! :)

Actually, that's a pretty good idea cause I need to start playing with that project again soon... I used to "scrape" edges of metal plating using a mix of DP Edges and gradients with fractal driving the position of one of the keys.

This stuff has opened up a collection of interesting new ideas! Like I said, great thread and thanks to everybody posting up great advice here... :thumbsup:

Kuzey
01-18-2011, 06:22 AM
Just been playing with funks version and creating another version of worn edges too....

(No grit node, used dp edge instead)

Nice....I got to try the dp edge node again :D

Kuzey

firstsingle
01-25-2011, 03:04 AM
Really cool. I don't know how I missed this thread.

Gregg "T.Rex"
02-07-2011, 01:05 PM
DP Edge is super cool, but only for low geometry...
Tried it on a 500K scanned model and it just hung there...
Too bad, as it's dead easy to use...

dpont
02-08-2011, 12:32 AM
DP Edge is super cool, but only for low geometry...
Tried it on a 500K scanned model and it just hung there...
Too bad, as it's dead easy to use...


Sometimes I would like simply get a kind
of confirmation about 'relative' progress of
things, did you used the last DP Edge?
less memory used and faster preprocess.

Fortunatly it is totally useless for a dinosaur.

Denis.

dpont
02-08-2011, 01:08 AM
...Tried it on a 500K scanned model and it just hung there...
Too bad, as it's dead easy to use...

I have a scanned model here, 544 000 polys,
with my poor 500 Mo of RAM, simply loading
the lwo in Layout goes in virtual memory,
I can render a simple Edge node setup (last version)
in 1m 27s included preprocess, the slowness
is more when my my laptop is freeing virtual memory
and I'm almost sure that you don't have this problem.

Denis.

Gregg "T.Rex"
02-08-2011, 04:12 PM
Okay...

I did some more tests and as it seems, it works on this heavy scanned and on top fragmented model, but only if the "Edge" shader is the only sole node.
Using it inside a more complex nodal tree, it slows down everything to almost a halt.
It's still abort-able though; it doesn't crash Layout...

BTW, i'm using the latest DPKit version and my workstation is a 12core [email protected] with 24Gigs of ram...

dpont
02-08-2011, 05:15 PM
...Using it inside a more complex nodal tree, it slows down everything to almost a halt.

Can't comment what you mean by complex,
but if you are using a single Edge node,
this probably has nothing to do with the preprocess
your tree probably evaluates the node more than once,
the Curvature has a most heavier preprocess
but more simple evaluation per spot.

Denis.

Gregg "T.Rex"
02-09-2011, 12:25 AM
Complex i mean with lots of various nodes for Color, other for Diffuse, more for Specular and Reflections and Bumps, along with some eeGrit, AO and other custom 3rd party nodes in there as well...

BTW, what pre-process are you referring to?
Cause, when using the Edge or Curvature node, i don't see a pre-process bar; only the Rendering in Progress bar directly...

Now, about the halt i was saying; it seems that it's not entirely true...
When the renderer is starting, it fires some rays, they halt still when first hit the object, but after a minute or so, they continue their work and render the image...
Without the Edge node in the tree, this "halt" is not happening, but it's not so bad after all...

dpont
02-09-2011, 12:40 AM
Complex i mean with lots of various nodes for Color, other for Diffuse, more for Specular and Reflections and Bumps, along with some eeGrit, AO and other custom 3rd party nodes in there as well...

Not very clear about the Edge node evaluation,
you are free to experiment everything but at your
own risk, I know a lot of other situations and other
tools which don't suffer too much connections
without increasing rendering time.
You should read me in this thread, because
I never recommend to use Edge node out
of its specific functions like rounding edges.



BTW, what pre-process are you referring to?
Cause, when using the Edge or Curvature node, i don't see a pre-process bar; only the Rendering in Progress bar directly...


'Formidable' you are able to run these nodes without a preprocess!
There are some words about this in this thread,
but I guess you are not interested.


Denis.

Gregg "T.Rex"
02-09-2011, 01:01 AM
Not very clear about the Edge node evaluation,
you are free to experiment everything but at your
own risk, I know a lot of other situations and other
tools which don't suffer too much connections
without increasing rendering time.
You should read me in this thread, because
I never recommend to use Edge node out
of its specific functions like rounding edges.

Yes, the proper use of Edge node should be for beveling/rounding edges on objects that don't use extra geometry on their edges.
But, it's also useful for grit like shading on edges of inorganic/arch models, as it seems...

Most likely, the organic (character) object i was testing it on for sharp grit on the edges, wasn't the best choice; but, it did work as it should, even if using it alone and baking the result in a normal map instead...


'Formidable' you are able to run these nodes without a preprocess!
There are some words about this in this thread,
but I guess you are not interested.

I'm always interested on everything that's related to your plugins, Denis... :)

Cheers...
T.Rex

Julez4001
02-15-2011, 10:13 PM
Impressive stuff in this thread and dpont, you are a wizard

Dreamer
10-19-2011, 11:23 AM
THe node will not open anymore in LW 10, either 32 or 64. Any answers?

bazsa73
10-22-2011, 01:34 PM
THe node will not open anymore in LW 10, either 32 or 64. Any answers?
I dont know but this should be absolutely implemented in LW11 and not only as a surface shader but as a displacement node as well.

erikals
10-22-2011, 02:43 PM
Nothing to add other than my last render. It's fun to keep adding nodes and see how it changes things.

sorry for late bump, but thought you might have use for this one :]
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=102794
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78290&d=1255382997

Tobian
10-22-2011, 05:21 PM
A concave/convex edge shader should definitely be part of the default LW toolkit. While the third party tools are cool, internal tools, which access internal structures could be a lot faster and more optimised and ideally, simple to use too.

Gregg "T.Rex"
10-22-2011, 11:02 PM
A concave/convex edge shader should definitely be part of the default LW toolkit. While the third party tools are cool, internal tools, which access internal structures could be a lot faster and more optimised and ideally, simple to use too.
Couldn't agree more...

While LightWave's tools for concave/convex occlusion shading are far more advanced than Max's or Modo's, thanks to the Node editor and Dennis's nodes, i found Modo's implementation the most straight forward, easiest and fastest one; it just works flawlessly each time with minimum clicks and hassle...

Tobian
10-24-2011, 05:46 AM
Yep that's the problem. We need something which is a lot simpler to use, and dedicated to the task, not a really complex set of nodes. Nodes are really powerful but they are also really impenetrable for people not too familiar with them.

Franco-Jo
05-20-2012, 10:48 AM
Before I get to my question I just want to say a quick thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread (now that i've posted in the one I meant to, ahem) All the comments made have greatly helped my understanding of using the nodes. Also I'd like to say thanks to Kuzey for providing the awesome Metal Pack. Pulling apart your textures and trying to figure out what the heck is going on has greatly helped my understanding of how the nodes work so far.

Okay so my question is that I have several textures set up that use the grit node. How do I bake them ready for animation? I intend to animate the object but not deform the mesh. I have a basic understanding of how to use the surface baking camera and I had read that normally it's good practice to turn off the lights before baking. Since the position of the grit node rust is determined by where the lights are in the scene I wanted to ask how to bake the texture without baking the shadows.

Thanks

erikals
04-10-2016, 10:27 AM
bump, as the official link is gone, posting a Grit Node Link, 64 bit here >
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133372&d=1460303652

Snosrap
04-19-2016, 01:51 PM
Just found this great thread, but I have a question: What is it about the DP Kit Curvatures node that brings my PC to it's knees? :)

erikals
02-06-2017, 11:17 AM
haven't tested it thoroughly, but could be...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_ciW0z5AA

Snosrap
02-06-2017, 09:19 PM
Yep - DP Curvature works pretty good but it usually crashes LW for me. I can only use it on a few objects at once - any more and it's hang city.

Dodgy
02-06-2017, 11:03 PM
With any of the Dpont shader nodes, make sure you have the surface it's on in only one layer, as I don't think it can detect the end of polygons like a full shader plugin can, so it uses the one layer limit. So the Tension node as well, maybe some of the others.

erikals
02-07-2017, 01:25 AM
Yep - DP Curvature works pretty good but it usually crashes LW for me. I can only use it on a few objects at once - any more and it's hang city.
next time, check if it is due to VPR, i've noticed other times it was due VPR+changing a shader of some sort.

thanks Dodgy, noted.   :)

Snosrap
02-07-2017, 07:51 PM
With any of the Dpont shader nodes, make sure you have the surface it's on in only one layer, as I don't think it can detect the end of polygons like a full shader plugin can, so it uses the one layer limit. So the Tension node as well, maybe some of the others.

Thanks for the heads up Dodgy!