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stoecklem
12-30-2010, 05:45 PM
Hi

It was very careless of me not to set up the 850 and do some testing after I switched to Lightwave 10.

Today I started compiling all my EXR's and found out that the video and FX are distorted in the liveset. I just wasted a week of rendering and was pulling my hair out trying to find out why.

then I went back and re-rendered the same scene in 9.6 and all is well. and did multiple tests with just V0 textured plane. Every render setting is exactly the same and everytime the LW 10 render's video came out distorted in the liveset.

is there something i'm missing... back to 9.6 for now.
could anyone confirm or refute this problem. to me it seems like there is something seriously wrong. Thanks for any help with this.

SBowie
12-30-2010, 06:01 PM
When this sort of thing happens, it's generally because the UV maps were bunged up during either processing or saving. Off the top of my head, I'd give some thought to whether anything in the new linear workflow could be messing with your video input textures, or possible some EXR export option that is set differently in one installation versus the other.

joseburgos
12-31-2010, 05:14 AM
Is dithering off?

stoecklem
01-14-2011, 10:56 AM
I finally got some time to try to get to the bottom of this and I am completely stumped. Dithering has always been off.

I'm still learning linear workflow. I think Linear color space in and out should be correct, but I tried every possible different color space combination.

operation
02-05-2011, 07:12 AM
Hi,

I have got the same issue.
It's a lightwave 10 bug, Lw is shifting the Green channel (Lw apply a gamma correction on it).
Download the last update (beta 20 january ).

If you are lucky , you will not have the 20 deg rotation in V0 and V1 input.

cheers

stoecklem
02-07-2011, 10:38 AM
Thank You!

I will download it and give it a try later today.

merovingio
04-11-2011, 03:33 AM
Same problem here. Last update does not resolve the issue.

Any ideas?

SBowie
04-11-2011, 06:33 AM
I'll be talking to both Rob and the good Dr. Cross today, I'll try to see if we can get a handle on this (although realistically any sort of resolution that requires anything beyond modified technique isn't going to happen when NAB is on - so thanks kindly for your patience).

joseburgos
04-11-2011, 07:49 AM
I have not tested this myself but maybe I can finally try this week but it looks like I will be confirming all your results.
That said, have you guys tried not using the sequence for V0 and V1 and instead used a nodal shader to produce the RAW texture? I'm just curious if the shift in color is image based only and if nodes work?

merovingio
04-11-2011, 08:25 AM
The nodal shader approach seems very interesting. But how to achieve that shader setting? It is maybe a 4 ramp shader. We just need to know both the rbg floating values for raw mode and sequence mode.

joseburgos
04-11-2011, 08:48 AM
No much easier. First start with a simple rectangle plane and make a UV map for it. If this was the V0, I would make it 16x9 and then use front on the Z to make a UV map of the whole rectangle.
In Layout, Select it's surface and make it 100% lum and 0% diffuse. Then enable node and select edit node. Add a Make Color from the Tools section. Double click on it and make blue zero value. Now add a UV Map from the Vertex Map section. Map the U out to the Red and the V out to the Green. double click on UV Map and select the UV Map for the plane. Now if you render this it looks good but the Green is going the wrong way, bottom right instead of top right. So back into node edit and add a Invert tool from the Math Scalar section. Map the V out off of Make Color and to the Invert In. then map the Invert Out to the make Color Green.
Now render and you have your RAW image which can also be used to render UVW passes.

Take care,

merovingio
04-12-2011, 03:27 AM
Thank you. I did it and it works perfectly!

mex3d
04-12-2011, 08:54 AM
I had the same problem here working with 3ds max and the issue was the gamma workflow.

Just be sure that you are not applying a double gamma correction.

I hope this help.

joseburgos
04-12-2011, 08:54 AM
No problem :)
Same for V1 texture and if you add a mixer node and map the make color out to it's background and then it's color out to the surface out, you can use the tools foreground color, via an envelope, to make black, white and pass via opacity to make the sequece.
Where you want the Make color to show, just make that frame via envelope, opacity 100% in the mixer. So you understand, all you are doing is telling to make the foreground 100% transparent for that frame which allows the background to pass at full color.
So you could easily make the two sequences via nodes and save them for future work which is what I do. For advance workflows, I use this same basic node but I use the make color out to feed a spot tool and DP tools to get UVW passes of just my reflections or refractions.

Take care,

stoecklem
04-12-2011, 02:22 PM
Interesting.. thank you for the tip, Jose. I do like Lightwave and will definitely keep it around, but right now I am considering switching to modo for Liveset creation.
I have spent hours now trying to get it to work in modo with every different type of mapping, UV, planar, camera,etc. The edges always get distorted in the compiled set.
I am aware of the gamma issue and always account for it as well as turn dithering off in modo. It could be a related problem.

I would love for both lightwave 10 and modo 501 to work perfectly with the liveset tools. If I remember correctly(i could be wrong) but modo 401 worked fine.

joseburgos
04-12-2011, 05:49 PM
The edge distortion is usually based on the matte the compiler made of the sequence. The way to test this is to use the compilers ability to create the four RAW layers. Then render the A and B surface with nothing else using the RAW V0 and V1 image as a reference. The V0 is easy except for the reflection if any. The B surface may require you to turn off geometry so as to render just the B surface. Render with no AA, no dithering or anything that can distort the image color grade. Now replace the new V0 and V1 for the old and use the compiler to use the four RAW images.
This should yield an error free LiveSet.
Remember to use the V0 & V1 RAW images as reference to create your new RAW images. Reflections and refractions require a knowledge of your softwares render pass ability in conduction with it's shader capabilities. Make sure you create UV maps for all your A and B surfaces as this will help the process.

mex3d
04-13-2011, 07:10 PM
I am trying to follow your advice to check my sets and something very strange is happening to me. The archives from the compiler of V0 and V1 are not like the RAW sample, the gradient goes from cyan to magenta.

But the liveset in the Tricaster looks good, just some minimal edge distortion.

Any idea?

joseburgos
04-13-2011, 07:26 PM
I am trying to follow your advice to check my sets and something very strange is happening to me. The archives from the compiler of V0 and V1 are not like the RAW sample, the gradient goes from cyan to magenta.

But the liveset in the Tricaster looks good, just some minimal edge distortion.

Any idea?

If you ignore the blue channel, it will look the same.

mex3d
04-13-2011, 08:21 PM
Gracias!!!! :)

joseburgos
04-14-2011, 06:11 AM
So if you have not guessed, it's hard to see if the UVW of V0 and V1 have any distortion until after you compile but again if it's on the edges, two reasons are usually at fault. One is you saved using compression which is a no no so make sure you save an EXR uncompressed render. In LW I use EXtrader plugin for my EXR renders. The other reason is just in your use of AA and the "mattes" the compiler created. When the compiler uses the white and black images to auto create the mattes, it also uses this to make adjustments to the V0 & V1 images. So if you have a lot of AA to make your edges look smooth, then this will transfer over to the alpha mattes the compiler will create.
This is why you should render in passes and then use a compositing program to first make your image sequence to feed the compiler to generate the four RAW images.
Then reuse your render passes to replace the V0 & V1 as well as clean up any matte edges in the fg or mg image as well.
I personally use Fusion 6 but I know a lot of you only have access to AE so if this is the case, I highly recommend you purchase YouVeelizer plugin for AE. Render in passes in your program be it 3D or 2D or a combo as I do and then compose in AE. The hardest part is getting yourself render passes of the UVW images for V0 & V1 in scenes that have reflections and refractions. But once you have that, assemble the comp with these UVW images and your usual render passes and then add the YouVeelizer plugin to all layers of the V0 & V1 layers. Then change the settings to match the render and then use a test image to test your set. You will need to add a key plugin to remove green for the V0 layers. This will allow you to mimic LiveSet without compiling. Once it looks good, you can change the test image to the texture sequences and render off the EXR sequence. I would then use the compiler to generate the four RAW images and then repeat the process of testing in AE with YouVeelizer on the V0 & V1 layers. If you don't like them, just replace using your render pass making sure it looks good in the four image RAW comp. Now feed the four RAW into the compiler and you should never have errors again :)

Home sick since Monday,

mex3d
04-14-2011, 03:51 PM
Yes, I was jumping from one machine to the tricaster, test and back again, maybe 100 times or more, your workflow is the way to do it.

So you are telling me that always I need to manually clean the edges of the mates after the compiling process?

Definitively I must buy the YouVeelizer plugin and follow you workflow.

Thanks for sharing your knowlege.

joseburgos
04-15-2011, 05:32 AM
You are welcome.
Once you get used to it, you will be able to finish faster since you can now work in a render pass professional work flow.
Like I said, I use Fusion 6 because of it's 3D abilities and Nuke would work just as well. AE is a 2D program with layers but with plugins, it works. I taught myself the AE work flow to deliver post production virtual sets. Now I advance it for LiveSet simply because most people own AE because of it's lower price.
There are more tricks for using A compositing program to build LiveSets but maybe I'll share another time :)

I'm going back to bed to rest,

merovingio
05-23-2011, 05:04 AM
The problem persists. Lightwave renders with that channel shifted, so the image are distorted. An application like AE can handle this, but what when you have lots of distorted reflection, all around the set? Or reflection distorted by the bump map? Or, say, a video source wrapped around an object with UV coordinates?

It would be nice to have a "f9 render ready to go". Liveset and Lightwave are both from Newtek, they should look for a while at the program and see how to fix that.

Joseburgos, the node approach is good, but it can only produce the "raw texture". Am i right? I cannot reproduce the same spectrum for the 7 image based compiler.

joseburgos
05-23-2011, 06:29 AM
Mixer node and envelope keyframes but you need two, one for V0 and one for V1. Once you got it set, just save the two custom shavers for future use.

merovingio
05-23-2011, 06:53 AM
I mean that i cannot reproduce the same colors as the spectrum. The one with pink up-left, green up-right, purple down-left and green down right

joseburgos
05-23-2011, 07:07 AM
I mean that i cannot reproduce the same colors as the spectrum. The one with pink up-left, green up-right, purple down-left and green down right

I'm not familiar with this color spectrum you are describing. Maybe you were reffering to the texture with blue channel enabled render image but it does not have red and green. It's either one or the other but actually they are the same it's just one has the blue channel as part of it's render. If you view it with the blue channel off, they are both the same red and green raw texture spectrum.

merovingio
05-23-2011, 07:34 AM
This one.

The gradient i use to compile the virtual set when i am not in raw mode.

joseburgos
05-23-2011, 07:37 AM
Ok just view this with the blue channel off and you will see it as the raw texture.

merovingio
05-23-2011, 07:43 AM
Yes, ok. But is there a way to make THIS with nodes? Is this the same you use when not in raw mode? Or maybe you use other type of spectrum?

I generated this one using the old plugin for Lightwave 9.6. The one for the Tricaster SD.

joseburgos
05-23-2011, 07:50 AM
I'm not in front of my system but I believe you need to rotate your UV object map 90 degrees counter clockwise but not 100% sure. The model UV not the node.

stoecklem
05-25-2011, 09:35 AM
yes.. the problem does persist. I just did a test with lightwave 10.1 beta and it looks even worse. please fix this newtek.
For someone like me who only makes sets for producers occasionally in addition to my numerous other job duties, this is very frustrating.

At some point I will go into more depth with all the very generous information in this thread, but now I really miss just being able to create the finished EXR's with F9 like I could in lightwave 9.6.

stoecklem
08-03-2011, 01:10 PM
Looks like this is fixed!