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DColboch
12-30-2010, 10:33 AM
Get the details here (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115462).

Let the discussion begin.

Donetta

GraphXs
12-30-2010, 10:41 AM
Great News! LW10 is finally here!

cresshead
12-30-2010, 10:45 AM
let go luke...feel the force of VPR...lower your blast shield...don't let the wait for F9 cloud your senses...


http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/05/500x_luke_lightsaber_training.jpg

OnlineRender
12-30-2010, 10:48 AM
downloaded ready to give it a whirl :

www.3djunkies.net :) we can talk about it now ?

Svenart
12-30-2010, 10:59 AM
congratulations to newtek for the probably best Lightwave release ever :thumbsup:

helixirb
12-30-2010, 11:03 AM
hahah well.. 2 days before 2011.. at least they followed through on the Q4 thing ;) Looking forward to using LW 10 :)

cresshead
12-30-2010, 12:11 PM
quick look at VPR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsZK8HaDi1I

MAUROCOR
12-30-2010, 12:22 PM
Amen!:)


BLUE is SO COOL!!!

cresshead
12-30-2010, 12:36 PM
another vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRyeUcLbjQ

and this...now of course i can reveal it was lightwave 10's VPR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXU3GsH2-B8

djlithium
12-30-2010, 01:31 PM
Ok for fear of being a bit cross promotional, we just wanted to say thank you NewTek for seeing through to the other side! We know its been quite a battle, but its for the greater good and we love you :)

We at Liberty3d we are very excited to see this release shipping, so we will extend our LightWave10 promotional sale until January 1st, 2011 to help celebrate this release a few more days.
It's a great day for LightWavers for sure!

You can get 25% off everything in our store by using the coupon code LW10 at the check out stage. That includes UberCam 1.5 (Fully LW10 and backwards compatible to 9.3.1) QuadPanels, Ref Image and all our videos.

We will have brand new videos featuring LW10, plus our other favorite apps like 3Dcoat, Fusion, etc online for you shortly over the next few days. Keep a look out for them!

WE LOVE LIGHTWAVE!
Thank you NewTek for making this a very powerful release! Keep at it! We are with you!

I also want to thank everyone who has supported our efforts over at Liberty3d.com over the last 8 months. We all really appreciate it and we are hard at work on new tools, videos and goodies for the LightWave community.

I personally can't wait to record a new tutorial using LW10 on the new machine I have picked up and configured with SLI GTX275 sparkle brand cards with 1782MB of DDR3 ram on board each card, matched with a brand new x6 PhenomII 1075T at 3ghz.. I have to say wow... what a major improvement in performance across the board and it was already getting pretty awesome before I upgraded just because of the openGL performance enhancements. It's very sweet! :)

This is an awesome release! :)

archijam
12-30-2010, 01:41 PM
Congrats, team! :)

djlithium
12-30-2010, 02:14 PM
We love LightWave!

Lamont
12-30-2010, 02:30 PM
Man, let's see what they have for the game stuff...

WilliamVaughan
12-30-2010, 02:46 PM
Congrats to all involved!

Svenart
12-30-2010, 02:56 PM
maybe its time now to melt the lw9.6 and the regular gallery and to open a lw10 gallery?

Kuzey
12-30-2010, 03:39 PM
Ok....this is fun...not!

Why the installer for the Mac :phone_cal 8~

I'm getting the beach ball of death when I click the next button at the start of the set up wizard.

Edit: it took about 10 minutes to become responsive again...Newtek, Please get rid of the installer ASAP!!!

Kuzey

Skonk
12-30-2010, 03:47 PM
quick look at VPR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsZK8HaDi1I

Using VPR with limited region looks very useful, especially on a slow-ish machine like this macbook pro.

Btw, OpenGL Wireframe works, but you have to select an object for it to become visible.

Kuzey
12-30-2010, 03:51 PM
Ok...here's my experience with LW10.....the good thing is the hub works, however.....Modeler & Layout crash like crazy.

What's the minimum supported OS...I have Mac OS 10.5.8 on my MacBook?

Kuzey

calilifestyle
12-30-2010, 03:52 PM
so many new updates on all fronts. So hard to pick which one to upgrade.

Kuzey
12-30-2010, 04:07 PM
Uninstalled LW10...way to go Newtek.

The process leaves the Newtek folder in my Application folder behind and I need to input my password to trash it...what the hell??

Edit: I'm just venting, but boy, I do feel like I have the right to....after this whole process.

Kuzey

Fsoto
12-30-2010, 04:22 PM
LightWave 10 needs Snow Leopard® 10.6 or better

3D Kiwi
12-30-2010, 04:26 PM
Ok been playing with vpr for a little bit now. Cant get Photoreal MB or DOF to work in the vpr. And hypervoxles dont seam to update with every change. Are there some settings im missing???

Kuzey
12-30-2010, 04:28 PM
LightWave 10 needs Snow Leopard® 10.6 or better

Thanks....I guess there is one good reason to upgrade :D

I sure hope LW9.6.1 won't need Snow Leopard to run.

Man....I'm still in shock over the installer and uninstaller and the crazy things that happen to folder Permissions etc.

Kuzey

Lamont
12-30-2010, 04:42 PM
Man, let's see what they have for the game stuff...Nah, same old, same old. Enjoy the rendering enhancements.

Skonk
12-30-2010, 04:56 PM
I sure hope LW9.6.1 won't need Snow Leopard to run.
Kuzey

Pretty sure it will do I'm affraid.

Kuzey
12-30-2010, 05:04 PM
Pretty sure it will do I'm affraid.

Thanks for the heads up!

For some reason, since both 32bit & 64bit are bundled together...I thought the 32bit version would at least run in older OS's....time to upgrade.

Kuzey

calilifestyle
12-30-2010, 05:08 PM
so whats up with the mdd thing. it's new updated to the loader or exporter.

Skonk
12-30-2010, 05:10 PM
I would suggest you try it because I don't have an older OS installed to test it myself; but I seem to remember seeing a post by someone who had similar issues to yours, but when trying to use 9.6.1.

Cageman
12-30-2010, 05:50 PM
so whats up with the mdd thing. it's new updated to the loader or exporter.

Regarding loading:

Supports MDD and Autodesk GeoCache and there is a node avaliable in Displacement that you can use instead of the original Deformer-type solutions. There are some enhancements regarding control of how the MDD or GeoCache is used, with Envelopes for pretty much everything. Also, worth mentioning, that finaly, the start time is in frames now, not in seconds (makes life very much easier, really). :)

Regarding saving:

You simply select the object(s) that you want to bake down to MDD or GeoCache and run the Multi MDD Exporter. You have the option to bake down just the cage mesh, or, if you are using displacements and want the results of those to be encoded into the MDD or GeoCache file, you should use the Subdivision setting. By doing this, you would most likely want to also export either an LWO or .OBJ, there are checkboxes to enable those within the interface. You can bake to MDD and GeoCache in the same go as well.

Cheers!

:)

cresshead
12-30-2010, 05:59 PM
regards non supported shaders:
besm crashes when using VPR..kills off lightwave.

loading up cel shader works okay btw.
poly edges [object properties] don't render in VPR

Fog works in VPR okay as far as i can tell

Lewis
12-30-2010, 06:03 PM
another vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRyeUcLbjQ

and this...now of course i can reveal it was lightwave 10's VPR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXU3GsH2-B8

Next time when you turn on "wireframe overlay" try to select object in scene ;).

Lewis
12-30-2010, 06:07 PM
NT Congrats for shipping LW10 and happy holidays to you all.

cheers

cresshead
12-30-2010, 06:13 PM
Next time when you turn on "wireframe overlay" try to select object in scene ;).

yeh...discovered that this afternoon...doesn't draw too well mind you.
uploading a new video to cover that omission from me.

vpr video 3
showcasing fog, nodes, cel chader and open gl wireframe views
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuU5p9J20Iw

We-Co
12-30-2010, 07:26 PM
Lw, lw, lw!!!

caesar
12-30-2010, 07:50 PM
Congrat NT

lertola2
12-30-2010, 08:56 PM
Where do you download LW10? I don't see it listed on my newtek download page.

-Joe

dwburman
12-30-2010, 09:26 PM
Ok been playing with vpr for a little bit now. Cant get Photoreal MB or DOF to work in the vpr. And hypervoxles dont seam to update with every change. Are there some settings im missing???

VPR does not support MB or DOF. To get HyperVoxels to update, try checking "Show Particles" in the HyperVoxel panel.

dwburman
12-30-2010, 09:32 PM
Ok...here's my experience with LW10.....the good thing is the hub works, however.....Modeler & Layout crash like crazy.

What's the minimum supported OS...I have Mac OS 10.5.8 on my MacBook?

Kuzey


I was hoping the 10.6 listed in the feature requirements was a suggestion, but I eventually had to cave in and upgrade. It wouldn't run at all on OS 10.5 for me. Upgrading to 10.6 was fairly painless, though and LW10 runs pretty well for the most part on the 2006 MacPro I'm using. At least the upgrade is fairly cheap.

sculptactive
12-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Where do you download LW10? I don't see it listed on my newtek download page.-Joe



As far as I can tell the only available download is the trial version here...

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwtrial.php


.

Cageman
12-30-2010, 11:40 PM
Where do you download LW10? I don't see it listed on my newtek download page.

-Joe

Have you upgraded to LW10?

If so, you should head over to HC-forums and download the gold master. It will probably take some more days until it is avaliable as download in registration, so if you have the patience you can always wait for that.

:)

sculptactive
12-31-2010, 12:25 AM
Have you upgraded to LW10?If so, you should head over to HC-forums and download the gold master.:)

Or (as worked for me) download the trial version and use your core s/n for the license key.

.

MDSPECIFIC
12-31-2010, 01:12 AM
Welcome 10!

pat-lek
12-31-2010, 01:32 AM
Cool news... Thanks Newtek.

nightrider
12-31-2010, 02:00 AM
Have you upgraded to LW10?

If so, you should head over to HC-forums and download the gold master. It will probably take some more days until it is avaliable as download in registration, so if you have the patience you can always wait for that.

:)

HC-forums and download the gold master

Where can I found this section ????

funk
12-31-2010, 02:13 AM
HC-forums and download the gold master

Where can I found this section ????

The trial and the files in the HC forum are exactly the same. Download the trial.

Mitja
12-31-2010, 02:47 AM
Supa dupa!!! But where's instancing?! Will it come with Core, somewhere in the 2011?

jakuzaa
12-31-2010, 03:01 AM
"All 30 day Trial Edition keys have been issued for this serial number. Please contact customer service at 1-800-862-7837 if you need assistance." :help:
I mean, are you kidding me?

Bona
12-31-2010, 03:27 AM
Thank you jakuzaa!! How can u find it? I almost decided to let it stucks in discovery mode for good :compbeati

First impression - VPR is accurate, Modeler is Modeler :D,
Some bugs I recalled in 9.6 cocoa got fixed, overall feels very stable, salutes to all coders & HC testers!

It's New Year's Eve on this side of the world, Happy New Year to all of U! :beerchug:

colkai
12-31-2010, 03:37 AM
First impression - VPR is accurate, Modeler is Modeler
That's all I needed to hear, upgrade unlikely.

mykyl
12-31-2010, 03:41 AM
"All 30 day Trial Edition keys have been issued for this serial number. Please contact customer service at 1-800-862-7837 if you need assistance." :help:
I mean, are you kidding me?

Exactly the same here.

Mike R

Weetos
12-31-2010, 03:56 AM
:/ Same message here. Can't register !

Installed it on my laptop, but I was wondering before I install it on my prod machine - does 1O can co-exist with 9.6 and 9.6.1 ? Do we have to use shortcuts like we used to, so the configs files don't mix between versions ?

Thanks NewTek and congrats to the team !

rush
12-31-2010, 04:06 AM
yeh...discovered that this afternoon...doesn't draw too well mind you.
uploading a new video to cover that omission from me.

vpr video 3
showcasing fog, nodes, cel chader and open gl wireframe views
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuU5p9J20Iw

Does caustics, volume lights, and hair work with the vpr?

cresshead
12-31-2010, 04:16 AM
Does caustics, volume lights, and hair work with the vpr?

download the demo and try it!:D

hrgiger
12-31-2010, 04:48 AM
That's all I needed to hear, upgrade unlikely.

Were you expecting something Colkai? They aren't updating modeler at least for this version and I doubt it will see any significant updates in the future. At least as far as new modeling capabilities go. All the new modeling will be in CORE only I'm guessing. The only thing that has changed for this version is 3Dconnexion support as well as the new I/O options.

colkai
12-31-2010, 05:07 AM
Were you expecting something Colkai? They aren't updating modeler at least for this version and I doubt it will see any significant updates in the future.
Yep, I was, I was expecting the overhaul of modeller that was promised at the start which made me plump down for HC.
I'm sure VPR is super for those who don't live in modeller as I do.
Now, frankly, I simply do not trust Newtek to produce anything they say up front. So whilst I am sure many will love what they have done with layout and the renderer, (which is obviously becoming their 'baby'), their complete inability and unwillingness to upgrade modeller leaves me with a similar POV regarding upgrading Lightwave.

As I say, I am not denying the upgrade will make many people happy, but I'm done frankly. Why they couldn't even do some simple updates to tools is beyond me, I guess they just can't be bothered and see the market for LW as being elsewhere now, that is, primarily as a pre-vis tool and renderer, leaving the good modelling advancements to other packages. Which is where I'll be looking in future.

Lewis
12-31-2010, 05:18 AM
.... I guess they just can't be bothered and see the market for LW as being elsewhere now, that is, primarily as a pre-vis tool and renderer, leaving the good modelling advancements to other packages. Which is where I'll be looking in future.

Sorry to hear that but you are right they didn't update modeler for very very long time (is it 5+ years by now?) so it's hard to stay loyal if you are seeking for modeling additions :(. And also yes they did say it few times "in next update.." so i feel your frustration :(. Only thing what i can tell you now is that with new additions of personnel for Team i strongly believe CORE will be much better to LWavers than it was before so if you can stick around for few more quarters maybe it'll workout for you too.

cheers

-EsHrA-
12-31-2010, 05:28 AM
"new additions of personnel" ..

Rob and Matt?

id say its the old personel that needs to be looked at..
not the new ones.

im pretty sure Matt and Rob work their balls of..

mlon

Lewis
12-31-2010, 05:29 AM
im pretty sure Matt and Rob work their balls of..

mlon

And where did i say that they don't ?

-EsHrA-
12-31-2010, 05:37 AM
you didnt, that was not what i meant.

extra staff is always ok but decisions are made at the top.
that is where 'bug' fixing is needed.


mlon

Lamont
12-31-2010, 05:38 AM
Only thing what i can tell you now is that with new additions of personnel for Team i strongly believe CORE will be much better to LWavers than it was before so if you can stick around for few more quarters maybe it'll workout for you too.If Core is everyting it appears to be, I'd upgrade to that 100% (because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than upgrading Maya). But like Colkai, all I do is model with a render here and there. And to see the toolset not really change much since v6 (sans a few plugin absorptions), it's disheartening. But thanks to plugin devs, the pain isn't so much, and I am always thankful for them.

I want Core to be this kick-arse modeling app. That's it. I know it will render like a demon, and come with all kinds of bells and whistles that rendering and shaders demand.

I'm going to still root around LW 10 and play with every plugin and script.

Kuzey
12-31-2010, 05:50 AM
Speaking of "old personel"...any chance of Chilton coming back on board??
:D


Mac OS X:
Double click the zip file to extract the installer and double click on it. Drag and drop the LightWave folder to the Applications folder on your hard drive

I just noticed this, that is not what I have experienced...there is no drag and drop, but a PC styled installer....Grrrrrrrrr!

Also:


Additional user benefits include:

* Versions for 32-/64-bit Windows
* World-class rendering with 999 network render nodes
* Unlimited technical support by phone, fax, email and forum


When I first read that, I thought the Mac version was delayed yet again. They could also mention the OS requirements on that page...to make life easier :hey:

Ok.....I'm feeling better now :neener:


Besides all that....well done Newtek and here's to a better process for LW11 :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Lewis
12-31-2010, 05:52 AM
you didnt, that was not what i meant.

extra staff is always ok but decisions are made at the top.
that is where 'bug' fixing is needed.
mlon

Hehe but Rob is at the top or very close to it ;). Also Matt didn't have time to do any significant work on CORE since he was brought up at team very late this year, also don't forget James Willmot who is also added to Developing team this year.


If Core is everyting it appears to be, I'd upgrade to that 100% (because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than upgrading Maya). But like Colkai, all I do is model with a render here and there. And to see the tool set not really change much since v6 (sans a few plugin absorptions), it's disheartening. But thanks to plugin devs, the pain isn't so much, and I am always thankful for them.


Well let's not push it that far and say that modeler 9.x or 10 are little different than v 6.0. Let's remember that LWModeler 9 got us Edges and it was pretty big/nice upgrade to modeling since it changed many things then. Later in 9.2 they added new OpenGL models as VBO buffering for much faster tumbling in viewports. There was also some very nice modeling tools additions in that period. Granted nothing ground shattering and not ahead of competition but still OK and usable today. Modelers main problem is low speed editing on medium/hi-poly meshes and that's why i believe they are making it in CORE. I've used CORE and i can't say much but i can say that i liked new tools more and more in latest builds, there is still lot of work but at least it's fresh start and they can't tell us "can't be done in old code" anymore :D. So if nothing else they can't make "old code" or "old team" excuses anymore :D. If is wrong or bad then it's their fault ;).

Also consider that I'm doing modeling for 80% of my time (8 hours at work and 4-5h at home freelancing) so i know how painfully is to watch other apps get great modeling tools while we are stalling for quite some time :(.

One thing i'd like to see form NT is no more promises and no more public announcements of "what's gonna be". Show videos/demos of what you have or will be ready in very short time but don't pre-sell something you don't really have and do "subject to change" or "forward looking" statements all the time :). If they could just "catchup" with selling existing product instead "future product" that would be ace and it would solve most of negative stuff since people would know what they are buying right away.

OnlineRender
12-31-2010, 06:09 AM
installer : would nice to see some tool tips embedded into the installer , the artwork is great ,but if you have slow machine , the images just loop would be nice to see some tool tips also included . . . .

happynew year btw

EmperorPete
12-31-2010, 06:23 AM
OK; now that LW10 is officially out, maybe someone can answer my question:
What exactly do I get for upgrading from 9.6? And what exactly is going on with CORE?

Lewis
12-31-2010, 06:27 AM
OK; now that LW10 is officially out, maybe someone can answer my question:
What exactly do I get for upgrading from 9.6? And what exactly is going on with CORE?

You get Layout 10 and modeler 10 and CORE 1.0 somewhere in 2011 when it's ready + you get access to HCforums where you can see/download updates of CORE and see progress and stuff regarding it.

Skonk
12-31-2010, 06:35 AM
Let's remember that LWModeler 9 got us Edges and it was pretty big/nice upgrade to modeling since it changed many things then.

It was never a real edge mode though, everything that works in "Edge Mode" also works in Point mode.

The reality is it was nothing more than a different way of displaying point selections and didn't add any real advantage over using Point mode.

Bit of a half-assed implementation like their attempt at adding Catmull Clark subd's.

That said, I'm reasonably happy with LW10.

Lewis
12-31-2010, 06:46 AM
... everything that works in "Edge Mode" also works in Point mode.
.

Not really, you can't simulate "Add Edge" tool with points or it's that easy nor it's same to Weight edges and wight points. Edge weight of a Subds BOX won't destroy your roundness while point weights will make it sharp at edges in subDs mode and it won't be a round anymore :).

There is few more differences but these two are very obvious ones that come to my mind instantly.

colkai
12-31-2010, 06:47 AM
OK; now that LW10 is officially out, maybe someone can answer my question:
What exactly do I get for upgrading from 9.6? And what exactly is going on with CORE?
You get what you see in the LW10 demo I presume with CORE as and when it comes out, making LW a 3-app pipeline with, I presume, anything upto 100% cross-over of assets between CORE and LW10.
What exactly that percentage will be I think is anyones guess. To be honest, at this point, I wouldn't waste money putting down for what CORE may bring if LW10 does not give you anything you don't need.

If LW10 gives you something you like, then I guess CORE will be a bonus as and when it arrives. However I certainly wouldn't rely on anything said between now and when CORE does ship as regards to what it will, or won't be.
Simply put, "forward looking and subject to change", means, in real terms, "just because we said we will do it it doesn't mean we will do it", that is, take anything said with a huge side-order of salt until you can see it with your own eyes.
There is no obligation for Newtek to deliver on anything they say up front and I agree that really, all this pre-development / pre-alpha talk of where the product is going should remain in house.
(BTW I also agree pre-order should be dropped completely until the RC build is ready to go, that way, people cannot be disappointed by what will be revealed regarding features as it will have to be a built feature to be shown. This I think would avoid a lot of confusion over what is vs what was said would be).

Skonk
12-31-2010, 07:00 AM
Not really, you can't simulate "Add Edge" tool with points or it's that easy nor it's same to Weight edges and wight points. Edge weight of a Subds BOX won't destroy your roundness while point weights will make it sharp at edges in subDs mode and it won't be a round anymore :).

There is few more differences but these two are very obvious ones that come to my mind instantly.

Add Edge was part of a free plugin suite that had been around for a while, that got added to lightwave, and has nothing to do with the Edge Mode inside Modeller (as it worked long before they added it).

Edge Weighting only works with CC SubD's and we all know how well that was implemented.

Lewis
12-31-2010, 07:41 AM
Add Edge was part of a free plugin suite that had been around for a while, that got added to lightwave, and has nothing to do with the Edge Mode inside Modeller (as it worked long before they added it).


Doesn't matter if it was plugin when it's n ow include din LW negatively. By that definition 3DSMAX wouldn't even exist 'coz almost all the good stuff come from Ad buying 3rd party stuff :).



Edge Weighting only works with CC SubD's and we all know how well that was implemented.

I wanted to show you difference and it is different with points and edges weight. Not fixed CCs is another part of story. You specifically said you can do all same whit points like with edge sin LW which ain't true :p.

- Another tool would be "connect", you select some edges and hit connect tool and you split those in middle - you can't do that with point selections unless you dd free floating point sin middle of polys which ain't easy process.
- Next ones would be " Loop expand" and "loop Contract" selection tools which work only with edges and it's very useful and cant' be used with points :),
- then for selecting loop you only need one edge so it's faster than selecting 2 points and using regular loop :).

I could probably find few more which makes using edges easier than points but my point is that i understand LWmodeler lacks some stuff but it's not THAT bad that's not even usable ;). It's behind competition that's sure but to say LWM 9.6/10 is same as LWM6 that's not true in any case. I wouldn't go back to 6 modeling options in any case :).

Skonk
12-31-2010, 07:49 AM
Doesn't matter if it was plugin when it's n ow include din LW negatively. By that definition 3DSMAX wouldn't even exist 'coz almost all the good stuff come from Ad buying 3rd party stuff :).


I wasn't trying to suggest that adding plugins was a bad thing; you brought up Add Edge in reference to modeller Edge Mode and I was just pointing out that Add Edge was availible before the Edge Mode was added to Modeller and doesn't have anything to do with that mode.

chris_lwgr
12-31-2010, 08:44 AM
VPR ROCKS!!!
Works also with make Preview for quick animated presentations.

Happy New Year to all

trevlb
12-31-2010, 09:14 AM
I am trying to install the Mac version of the 30-day trial. After I run the installer, I try to launch to proceed with the registration step, but layout crashes every time. I am running OSX 10.5.8. Is anyone else having this problem?

Thanks

BlueApple
12-31-2010, 09:39 AM
I am trying to install the Mac version of the 30-day trial. After I run the installer, I try to launch to proceed with the registration step, but layout crashes every time. I am running OSX 10.5.8. Is anyone else having this problem?

Thanks

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/requirements.php

You need 10.6.

trevlb
12-31-2010, 09:45 AM
Ok. Thanks for the help.

Samus
12-31-2010, 10:29 AM
Hi all!!

CRESSHEAD you might add that VPR also works when Previewing an animation, and by that i mean "make Preview", also use the undocking of a Opengl(VPR ) Preview in dysplay Options, Also FiberFx is previewable in VPR when clicking ok Volumetric checkbox in FiberFx.

Have Fun!!!

PS: Newtek should have implemented Bullet Physics in LW10 instead of Core.

OnlineRender
12-31-2010, 11:18 AM
I want Core to be this kick-arse modeling app. That's it.

I think modeller would be a good place to start first , fair enough working on Core from the sidelines but any integrated 3D app should go a b c or as Newtek call it Model ,Animate ,Render .




Newtek should have implemented Bullet Physics in LW10 instead of Core.

+1 its very nice playing around on LW10 but as a whole we are still separated as a group . people with Core people without .

hrgiger
12-31-2010, 12:41 PM
Yep, I was, I was expecting the overhaul of modeller that was promised at the start which made me plump down for HC.
I'm sure VPR is super for those who don't live in modeller as I do.
Now, frankly, I simply do not trust Newtek to produce anything they say up front. So whilst I am sure many will love what they have done with layout and the renderer, (which is obviously becoming their 'baby'), their complete inability and unwillingness to upgrade modeller leaves me with a similar POV regarding upgrading Lightwave.



But they never promised any update to modeler. All of the new modeling tools were supposed to be via CORE which is still a WIP.

Having said that, I can't say I disagree with your sentiments Colkai. Lightwave 9 focused heavily on rendering enhancements. Nodal shading, a complete rewrite of the raytracing engine, new AA, new motion blur, new Global illumination, new light types, new cameras, the list goes on and on.... And now with Lightwave 10, we have another major release with another large focus on rendering with VPR being the key feature (as in its always toted first on the list of new features for 10). Without CORE, it's not a very well balanced upgrade. If they do good with CORE, at least it will make 10 seem like a much more worthy upgrade depending on how good the implementation is of the UV tools, new modleing tools and of course the bullet dynamics.

Paul_Boland
12-31-2010, 01:06 PM
OK; now that LW10 is officially out, maybe someone can answer my question:
What exactly do I get for upgrading from 9.6? And what exactly is going on with CORE?

Just to add to what others above have already answered on your questions, if you buy into Lightwave 10 CORE now you'll also get the rigging DVD which I have to say I'm quite looking forward to. Also, CORE has the Bullet Physics which is also something I'm very much looking forward to getting my hands on.

MacDoggie
12-31-2010, 02:07 PM
That's all I needed to hear, upgrade unlikely.


Why the long face matey!? Still worth having a go though ASFAIC. I wasn't expecting any changes in Modeller. Besides, that's what Modo is for:D:D

MacDoggie
12-31-2010, 02:23 PM
But they never promised any update to modeler. All of the new modeling tools were supposed to be via CORE which is still a WIP.

Having said that, I can't say I disagree with your sentiments Colkai. Lightwave 9 focused heavily on rendering enhancements. Nodal shading, a complete rewrite of the raytracing engine, new AA, new motion blur, new Global illumination, new light types, new cameras, the list goes on and on.... And now with Lightwave 10, we have another major release with another large focus on rendering with VPR being the key feature (as in its always toted first on the list of new features for 10). Without CORE, it's not a very well balanced upgrade. If they do good with CORE, at least it will make 10 seem like a much more worthy upgrade depending on how good the implementation is of the UV tools, new modleing tools and of course the bullet dynamics.

Colkai, This guy makes sense and I agree with him.

The enhancements at the core level are going to really enhance Lightwave as we know it and that my friend is definitely worth the price of admission. As a modo user (modelling) I can understand your frustrations, they too (the modo community) are having expectation issues as well. But the enhancements in Modo 501 were IMO necessary to carry the base capabilities to the next level. Animation (which very rudimentary at the moment) and CA in modo will be coming but that will take time. Which is why I use LW for animation anyway (don't do CA). What started as a stop gap solution has snowballed into a serious modelling, UV and alternative rendering solution (stills).

So what I reckon I am trying to say is the between the Modo 501 and LW10 I now have a very formidable set of tools.:D:thumbsup::D

colkai
12-31-2010, 02:26 PM
Why the long face matey!? Still worth having a go though ASFAIC. I wasn't expecting any changes in Modeller. Besides, that's what Modo is for:D:D

Ahh, but I don't got that either :p
I don't really get anything out of the LW10 upgrade that isn't already covered by LW9.6 for what I do. The thing I was hoping for, is once again pushed back to some indeterminate time / release.
Just fed up I guess, I know a lot of folks will be delighted with the layout / render centric update once again, maybe it's just the LW I wanted is no longer the direction Newtek intend to take.
Everything is subject to change I guess, after all, change is, so they say, the only constant.
Maybe once the apparent fubar with people not being able to get reg. keys for the demo is sorted out, I may see if it is at least, any quicker than 9.6, possibly, assuming it also un-installs tidily too.

MacDoggie
12-31-2010, 02:35 PM
Ahh, but I don't got that either :p
I don't really get anything out of the LW10 upgrade that isn't already covered by LW9.6 for what I do. The thing I was hoping for, is once again pushed back to some indeterminate time / release.
Just fed up I guess, I know a lot of folks will be delighted with the layout / render centric update once again, maybe it's just the LW I wanted is no longer the direction Newtek intend to take.
Everything is subject to change I guess, after all, change is, so they say, the only constant.
Maybe once the apparent fubar with people not being able to get reg. keys for the demo is sorted out, I may see if it is at least, any quicker than 9.6, possibly, assuming it also un-installs tidily too.

Fair enough, Personally, I feel the increase in rendering efficiency as well as further enhancement to handle lager complex scenes as well as the enhanced VPR alone is worth the price. Something like this is surely to be a boon to you eh?? Nevertheless, I do understand what you're saying here. Be well...

calilifestyle
12-31-2010, 03:30 PM
"new additions of personnel" ..

Rob and Matt?

id say its the old personel that needs to be looked at..
not the new ones.

im pretty sure Matt and Rob work their balls of..

mlon
i remember hearing/reading this same excuse here on the forums. Blaming the Modo team for leaving Newtek with old legacy code. in version 9 of Lw everyone saying just wait and see what the new team will do for lw. so i guess new team excuse all over again.
It's cool , i guess. yeah I'm not upgrading either. Not really a big deal saving few hundred right now.

BlueApple
12-31-2010, 03:59 PM
I put together a comparison between FPrime under 9.6 and VPR under 10, and must say that VPR handles quite well. VPR is impressive work, without question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WHx5iJbKo4

Like some other users have already stated, this update may not be for me. I just don't see any new features in Modeler10 or Layout10 that I need as of now. Perhaps when there is a Core demo available (instancing, animatable everything, etc.) I'll need to open the wallet.

MacDoggie
12-31-2010, 04:23 PM
i remember hearing/reading this same excuse here on the forums. Blaming the Modo team for leaving Newtek with old legacy code. in version 9 of Lw everyone saying just wait and see what the new team will do for lw. so i guess new team excuse all over again.
It's cool , i guess. yeah I'm not upgrading either. Not really a big deal saving few hundred right now.

Whew! tough crowd! :D

Perhaps I would feel the same had I not subscribed at the beginning of the program. Blaming Brad and the sunshine gang is ludicrous at best I agree. All of that legacy code needs to be ripped out anyway. I feel the new crew have worked very hard and in time LW will be up there with the rest. It is just going to take time.

The previous builds of LW 9.6 will serve for sometime and addition purchases of third party solutions will bolster LW till the real deal arrives as far as I am concerned... Til then it's business as usual:thumbsup:

IMI
01-01-2011, 04:09 AM
That's all I needed to hear, upgrade unlikely.

You know, I was thinking the exact same thing, then read what you wrote above. ;)

I guess I'll try the trial at least. Eventually, maybe.

I'm totally lost now though. What happened to CORE? I remember seeing those early CORE videos and the interface and everything was totally new - more like Modo than LW from what I recall, but after looking over a few videos it looks like regular old LW with new interface colors.
Not that I'd complain about that - it looks much better, but it doesn't look like what I remember from the CORE videos.

So is CORE something different? I had thought that there was going to be no LW 10 and that CORE was going to be the next LW, and that Modeler and Layout were going to be merged into one app.

But I also remember something about this mysterious interim version of CORE that was going to need to work with legacy LW in some capacity for a while. Is that what LW 10 is - the bridge between legacy LW and CORE?

I haven't followed LW development at all for a while now, and I have to say, trying to keep up with it casually is virtually impossible. It's like a soap opera you have to watch every day in order to understand. ;)

sculptactive
01-01-2011, 04:36 AM
does 1O co-exist with 9.6 and 9.6.1 ? Do we have to use shortcuts like we used to, so the configs files don't mix between versions ?

Yep they co-exist. I have 9.6, 10 and core running. It is essential for me as one of my favourite plugins, "fertilizer" gets errors in 10, so I am stuck with 9.6 until I find a work around.

.

colkai
01-01-2011, 08:12 AM
So is CORE something different? I had thought that there was going to be no LW 10 and that CORE was going to be the next LW, and that Modeler and Layout were going to be merged into one app.
All change since Rob Powers came on board, the idea of it being CORE with LW tagged on until it can up and run has, for now, been reversed to LW10 as a product with CORE coming later, which will, I presume tagged on to LW10. At what point CORE becomes the "main" app with the others just there to offer support is anyones guess.
All this of course, is also subject to no further changes in personnel who then bring their own vision of what the future should be as happened with the switcheroo from Jay to Rob.

For now, LW10 is, apparently, an upgrade to Layout to give VPR and linear colour space et al. CORE is not yet ready and will be along at some point for it's first stage, having now taken a back seat to getting LW10 out the door.

It remains highly confusing as to exactly what is coming what and where things are headed.

I think the idea is to still eventually have a single app. LWCORE or whatever, but frankly, the chances of seeing that in the next 5 years I think are pretty slim seeing as it's taken over 2 years to get here AFTER the 2 years that the new product was theoretically in development prior to that.

Basically, as I said earlier, if you don't think LW10 offers you anything new after viewing the trial version, I would be tempted to hold off any upgrade until we actually see what CORE is as and when it arrives.

Of course, thats is my personal viewpoint, as they say, you mileage may vary. ;)

robertoortiz
01-01-2011, 08:52 AM
i remember hearing/reading this same excuse here on the forums. Blaming the Modo team for leaving Newtek with old legacy code. in version 9 of Lw everyone saying just wait and see what the new team will do for lw. so i guess new team excuse all over again.
It's cool , i guess. yeah I'm not upgrading either. Not really a big deal saving few hundred right now.

Good for you.
That is your right, and i wish you a good journey.

Havig said that, the experience of being part of the beta team has been quite positive, and the whole blaming Modo for x y or Z is not mentioed there at all.

As a developer of more that 20 years I can attest that the codebase of Lightwave is indeed quite old. The fact that Jay and now Rob, Chuck and Matt have bee able to take it as far as they have is a credit to their skills as developers.
The idea behind CORE is a groud up rewrite of LW. Is to provide a foundation, a CORE for what will be next ge LW.
Think of it of the XSI for Softimage. That trasition also took time, but the final product NOW is the stuff of dreams.

A lot of us have already played with it, and we ca all agree that it is ot yet ready. But the foudation being set is a solid one.
We i the LWCORE forums are helping guide the application.

steamthunk
01-01-2011, 10:26 AM
Finally got around to downloading LW10 and installing. Got a lot of catching up to do since I've totally been out of the loop on the whole CORE stuff. Sadly it seems like the same topics and complaints as earlier in the year. At least I got my t-shirt... boy that was an unexpected surprise!

Lightwolf
01-01-2011, 10:36 AM
As a developer of more that 20 years I can attest that the codebase of Lightwave is indeed quite old. The fact that Jay and now Rob, Chuck and Matt have bee able to take it as far as they have is a credit to their skills as developers.
Which is interesting, as neither of them are. Now imagine what could could happen if they were real developers and actually knew some programming languages (besides Matt's LScript and C hacking expertise) ;)

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
01-01-2011, 11:00 AM
my view...
core development from 4th feb 2009 until december 31st 2010 was not going as fast as some hoped/predicted/prayed for, we've seen some alpha/beta versions..nothing as developed as a near to release version...and NEWTEK wanted to release an update to their 3d software so switched over to lightwave layout and gave that a boost for a end of december update and new lightwave version 10.

now that's out the door the 'pressure' to release is over...they have a new app out... and can now turn their full attention BACK to core for 2011-2012

IMI
01-01-2011, 11:03 AM
Of course, thats is my personal viewpoint, as they say, you mileage may vary. ;)

Thanks for the 'splaination, colkai - no I don't think my mileage varies any. ;)

So Jay Roth is gone now? What happened, a coup d'état?
In the time since my last post I read a little more and was thinking that it seems like LW 10 was created just for some cash flow while CORE continues to cook. Have to say though, I'm honestly very surprised that CORE is not yet released. I'm even more surprised by the decision to create a LW 10 in the meantime, to tell you the truth. Seems to me that would either take away from CORE development time, or result in a LW 10 that doesn't offer much new - or both.

What ever happened to CORE? Will anybody ever be able to register their LW 10 trial? Will there be another coup to topple the LW kingdom once again? And is the Holy Order of the HardCore secretly holing up Jay Roth in safety, preparing for his triumphant return to power? Tune in next season to As The Wave Turns for these answers and more....

As I said, it's a soap opera, man. ;)

geo_n
01-01-2011, 11:05 AM
Not sure if the deal is still on but if you upgraded to lw 10 your upgrade for the next five releases is locked to whatever upgrade price you paid for, 495 for me. I think that's a very good deal.
And I think people are forgetting that lw 10 includes core 1.0 when it is finished. The fulltime modellers here can receive atleast core 1.0 wherein the focus is modelling. It probably won't replace modeller but its a start to the same 7 year modelling app journey :p.

frantbk
01-01-2011, 11:32 AM
my view...
core development from 4th feb 2009 until december 31st 2010 was not going as fast as some hoped/predicted/prayed for, we've seen some alpha/beta versions..nothing as developed as a near to release version...and NEWTEK wanted to release an update to their 3d software so switched over to lightwave layout and gave that a boost for a end of december update and new lightwave version 10.

now that's out the door the 'pressure' to release is over...they have a new app out... and can now turn their full attention BACK to core for 2011-2012


How do you figure the press to release is over? Lightwave 10 with core technology is really just lightwave 9.7 with core technology. The next question after that is "Just how much Core technology is in Lightwave 10?"

Is The core technology the VPR function that the big talk is about Lightwave 10, or is there much more?

If anything there is more pressure on NewTek to meet the 2011 release date of Lightwave Core since it will be two years after NewTek missed its original released for Core. This current release is just Lightwave 9.7 remaned 10 because sale of 9.x were dropping off and the company wants to keep people interested in lightwave.

As for the much talked about VPR. Nobody has said what the minimum cpu & video is required to have a usable working environment. Power's clearly stated that the box used in video was an intel box with 25 processor. What wasn't said was whether they were 25 phyiscal processor, or 12 phyiscal an 12 hyper-threading. Twenty-five phyiscal cpu's means he was using X7xxx series cpu. The lowest X7xxx cpu gos for just under $4,000.00 per cpu at Newegg, so it makes a difference what was in the intel box.

Also when he was talking about the video card he stumbled and sputtered about what it was and what was on it. Was it a $20,000.00 video card, $8,000.00, $3,000.00, or a $618.00 video card? in that box. Was it a group of Nvida CUDA (Not sure I have that spelled right) units.

MacDoggie
01-01-2011, 11:53 AM
Thanks for the 'splaination, colkai - no I don't think my mileage varies any. ;)

So Jay Roth is gone now? What happened, a coup d'état?
In the time since my last post I read a little more and was thinking that it seems like LW 10 was created just for some cash flow while CORE continues to cook. Have to say though, I'm honestly very surprised that CORE is not yet released. I'm even more surprised by the decision to create a LW 10 in the meantime, to tell you the truth. Seems to me that would either take away from CORE development time, or result in a LW 10 that doesn't offer much new - or both.

What ever happened to CORE? Will anybody ever be able to register their LW 10 trial? Will there be another coup to topple the LW kingdom once again? And is the Holy Order of the HardCore secretly holing up Jay Roth in safety, preparing for his triumphant return to power? Tune in next season to As The Wave Turns for these answers and more....

As I said, it's a soap opera, man. ;)

ROTFLMAO!!! At least it's entertaining...:D

In true LW tradition the turmoil reigns supreme. Issues or inquiries pertaining to Jay and the sunshine gang should be addressed to their secret HARDCORE mountain fortress located high in the Bavarian Alps (was modelled in LW by the way). Concerning the Jay Roth thing, lets don't and say we did ... Please, no more jay roth, once was enough...:thumbsup:

cresshead
01-01-2011, 12:05 PM
How do you figure the press to release is over? Lightwave 10 with core technology is really just lightwave 9.7 with core technology. The next question after that is "Just how much Core technology is in Lightwave 10?"

Is The core technology the VPR function that the big talk is about Lightwave 10, or is there much more?

If anything there is more pressure on NewTek to meet the 2011 release date of Lightwave Core since it will be two years after NewTek missed its original released for Core. This current release is just Lightwave 9.7 remaned 10 because sale of 9.x were dropping off and the company wants to keep people interested in lightwave.

As for the much talked about VPR. Nobody has said what the minimum cpu & video is required to have a usable working environment. Power's clearly stated that the box used in video was an intel box with 25 processor. What wasn't said was whether they were 25 phyiscal processor, or 12 phyiscal an 12 hyper-threading. Twenty-five phyiscal cpu's means he was using X7xxx series cpu. The lowest X7xxx cpu gos for just under $4,000.00 per cpu at Newegg, so it makes a difference what was in the intel box.

Also when he was talking about the video card he stumbled and sputtered about what it was and what was on it. Was it a $20,000.00 video card, $8,000.00, $3,000.00, or a $618.00 video card? in that box. Was it a group of Nvida CUDA (Not sure I have that spelled right) units.

my youtube video with VPR
my computer is a intel quadcore 2.4ghz [old]
nvidia 8500gt [poo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsZK8HaDi1I

dwburman
01-01-2011, 12:06 PM
The pressure to release something by the end of the year is over so the focus can now shift from Layout/Modeler back to CORE.

VPR uses CPU power, not GPU power so you don't need a super graphics card for VPR. You don't need a 12 CPU system to get decent results with VPR. I'm getting decent results with my 2006 QuadCore MacPro. Of course, VPR performance is directly effected by the scene you're working on (polygon count, raytracing options, surface settings, lighting options, etc) and CPU power you have.


How do you figure the press to release is over? Lightwave 10 with core technology is really just lightwave 9.7 with core technology. The next question after that is "Just how much Core technology is in Lightwave 10?"

Is The core technology the VPR function that the big talk is about Lightwave 10, or is there much more?

If anything there is more pressure on NewTek to meet the 2011 release date of Lightwave Core since it will be two years after NewTek missed its original released for Core. This current release is just Lightwave 9.7 remaned 10 because sale of 9.x were dropping off and the company wants to keep people interested in lightwave.

As for the much talked about VPR. Nobody has said what the minimum cpu & video is required to have a usable working environment. Power's clearly stated that the box used in video was an intel box with 25 processor. What wasn't said was whether they were 25 phyiscal processor, or 12 phyiscal an 12 hyper-threading. Twenty-five phyiscal cpu's means he was using X7xxx series cpu. The lowest X7xxx cpu gos for just under $4,000.00 per cpu at Newegg, so it makes a difference what was in the intel box.

Also when he was talking about the video card he stumbled and sputtered about what it was and what was on it. Was it a $20,000.00 video card, $8,000.00, $3,000.00, or a $618.00 video card? in that box. Was it a group of Nvida CUDA (Not sure I have that spelled right) units.

cyatic
01-01-2011, 12:31 PM
my view...
core development from 4th feb 2009 until december 31st 2010 was not going as fast as some hoped/predicted/prayed for, we've seen some alpha/beta versions..nothing as developed as a near to release version...and NEWTEK wanted to release an update to their 3d software so switched over to lightwave layout and gave that a boost for a end of december update and new lightwave version 10.

now that's out the door the 'pressure' to release is over...they have a new app out... and can now turn their full attention BACK to core for 2011-2012

This is funny. This reminds me of the scene in Tron Legacy where Encom's about to roll out it's new OS and the guy says the OS is the same one, just a new number slapped on the box. :newtek:

cresshead
01-01-2011, 01:38 PM
This is funny. This reminds me of the scene in Tron Legacy where Encom's about to roll out it's new OS and the guy says the OS is the same one, just a new number slapped on the box. :newtek:

well that's not accurate, VPR is a major advance for the renderer and how artists will work in the future....it'll save days/weeks compred to waiting for f9 renders to calculate.

IMI
01-01-2011, 01:49 PM
well that not accurate, VPR is a major advance for the renderer and how artists will work in the future....it'll save days/weeks compred to waiting for f9 renders to calculate.

Well truthfully, yes it is a major advance... for LW, that is. But not really a new idea being that all the major programs have had their own VPR for years now. ;)
And long before this, there was FPrime, which it seems like most people have been using for a while now.
The VPR wasn't really spawned from any creative/groundbreaking design decisions, but more out of necessity in order to not look silly compared to the other apps in 2011. ;)

I'm not knocking it though, but IMO it should have been part of LW somewhere along the 9.x cycle. It's still actually cheaper to stick with LW 9.6 and just buy FPrime though, for that feature. Plus of course FPrime isn't only for previews as we all know. However it also doesn't render everything correctly, such as some of the pre-pass nodes.
I watched your videos and it does look very cool, but it doesn't make it worth the upgrade IMO.

Dexter2999
01-01-2011, 02:08 PM
VPR isn't 100% correct. FPrime is not 100% correct.

Thus PREVIEW RENDERER, not INSTANT RENDERER.

I swear if I keep reading the whining about this I'm going to turn into an effin' troll.

IMI
01-01-2011, 02:20 PM
VPR isn't 100% correct. FPrime is not 100% correct.

Thus PREVIEW RENDERER, not INSTANT RENDERER.

I swear if I keep reading the whining about this I'm going to turn into an effin' troll.

Who are you directing that at? I don't see anyone here implying VPR is anything BUT a preview renderer...

speismonqui
01-01-2011, 03:00 PM
Think of it of the XSI for Softimage. That trasition also took time, but the final product NOW is the stuff of dreams.


:agree:
Seems to be a lot of confussion about LW10 and CORE and etc (still). Youre right about XSI, its just the way it is... my only concern is whats going to happen when Excalibur finally arrives? will CORE still have a chance? you know, being AD a significant bigger company, and the fact that they dont announce it as a "coming in Q wathever" but rather a "how about this max 2011?" and secretly develop the rewrtite?

Cageman
01-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Who are you directing that at? I don't see anyone here implying VPR is anything BUT a preview renderer...

While it is true that it doesn't do renders like FPrime, it seems to be more truthfull to what an F9 or F10 would look like.

Also, if you have VPR activated and make a preview, you can output an image sequence/avi or mov rendered by VPR.

Here (http://hangar18.gotdns.org/~cageman/LightWave10/Tank_animation_using_VPR.mov) is an example where I used VPR to output an imagesequence that I then converted into a quicktime. I can't remember the exact time/frame though (maybe around 8-12 sec/frame), but it wasn't much concidering my current computer (QuadCore [email protected]).

IMI
01-01-2011, 03:41 PM
While it is true that it doesn't do renders like FPrime, it seems to be more truthfull to what an F9 or F10 would look like.

Also, if you have VPR activated and make a preview, you can output an image sequence/avi or mov rendered by VPR.

Here (http://hangar18.gotdns.org/~cageman/LightWave10/Tank_animation_using_VPR.mov) is an example where I used VPR to output an imagesequence that I then converted into a quicktime. I can't remember the exact time/frame though (maybe around 8-12 sec/frame), but it wasn't much concidering my current computer (QuadCore [email protected]).

Thanks for the clarification, Cageman, that's pretty cool for a preview. :)
Okay, so VPR can be used as more than just a single frame real-time preview. That's definitely a step in the right direction.

VoltisArt
01-01-2011, 04:04 PM
So...here I am rockin' the 2005 release of LW8.5. I want to -want- 10 and Core but I see several fellow primary modelers being terribly underwhelmed. I have downloaded the trial and will get to installing and playing sometime this weekend, but two questions stand firmly in the way of me keeping my hopes up:

Why should I want this? The rendering stuff sounds cool, but a couple hours of browsing didn't get me a complete feature list like the kind much cheaper or -free- apps have easily available at, say...DAZ. I need to know what I'm really going to get before I even think about upgrading...and yeah, some real info on Core wouldn't hurt if I'm paying for that, too. My $21 upgrade of Bryce shouldn't be making LightWave look bad in ANY way...seriously. I knew everything I was getting before I hit Add to Cart on that one.

The edge modeling sounds intriguing...will definitely look into that.

Second, I'm glad for many of you that you are either established pros or otherwise comfortable enough with money to have already purchased, but I'm going to have to either wait for my tax return or borrow money before I've got $495 to spend...if I decide I want to spend it, per the above. What's with the vague "Limited Time"? When will the sale end and once again, why are low-end stores making NewTek look bad by being open and up front?

I love LightWave. I understand it and it gets me. I don't want to wind up five+ versions behind when we're all at the 128 bit level and eventually decide something else fits my needs or simply tells me what I'll get so I feel more comfortable buying it...nor do I really want to wait that long being stuck in 2005, lol. I want to continue wanting LightWave...but I need some of that love back, too.

Wout
01-01-2011, 04:26 PM
So I downloaded the trial to have a look at that the VPR feature. Now it does not seem to take into account the number of bounces and RPE settings in the Global Illumination panel. Something that perhaps would make sense in a interpolated radiosity scenario because 1 bounce and a fixed low RPE result in a faster preview but even in a non interpolated scenario changing those values doesn't seem to have any effect... Bug or deliberate ?

Woops my bad => 'Draft Mode'

MentalFish
01-01-2011, 07:51 PM
Congrats with the release NewTek! I just tried the demo and so far it seems to be handling well on my Mac Pro on Snow Leopard, neato.

I am really close to upgrading to 10, but I am missing one specific feature I would like to see before upgrading:

In LScript this works as intended, spitting out a file no questions asked:
cmdseq("ExportOBJ", "my/path/to/file.obj");

While this interrupts with export settings and file requester:
cmdseq("ExportFBX", "my/path/to/file.fbx");

I have been wanting a slient FBX export via LScript since I started using Unity some years ago. Pretty please with cherry on top? This would allow for some automagicness between LightWave and Unity, especially if it is available both in Layout and Modeler.

MacDoggie
01-01-2011, 08:07 PM
Congrats with the release NewTek! I just tried the demo and so far it seems to be handling well on my Mac Pro on Snow Leopard, neato.

I am really close to upgrading to 10, but I am missing one specific feature I would like to see before upgrading:

In LScript this works as intended, spitting out a file no questions asked:
cmdseq("ExportOBJ", "my/path/to/file.obj");

While this interrupts with export settings and file requester:
cmdseq("ExportFBX", "my/path/to/file.fbx");

I have been wanting a slient FBX export via LScript since I started using Unity some years ago. Pretty please with cherry on top? This would allow for some automagicness between LightWave and Unity, especially if it is available both in Layout and Modeler.

I have a friend of mine who develops for Unity. He does his modelling in Modo then imports into LW where he then textures and bakes then exports out of LW using the FBX exporter and says it works pretty well. He did say the there still was no support for layered objects though. He also said that he just upgraded to 10 and was very excited about it...

erikals
01-01-2011, 09:29 PM
Supa dupa!!! But where's instancing?! Will it come with Core, somewhere in the 2011?

hi, try DPont's instance plugin... (beta)

erikals
01-01-2011, 10:05 PM
...Here (http://hangar18.gotdns.org/~cageman/LightWave10/Tank_animation_using_VPR.mov) is an example where I used VPR to output an imagesequence that I then converted into a quicktime. I can't remember the exact time/frame though (maybe around 8-12 sec/frame), but it wasn't much concidering my current computer (QuadCore [email protected]).

not bad, added noise reduction in post, great preview...
(ups, hope it's ok i uploaded it here...)
 

Bona
01-02-2011, 12:12 AM
I think LW10 is a very good deal for all pre-9 users, but I've got 9.6, fPrime and Sas, I'll wait for more CORE details to make my move.

When CORE was announced many Q's ago, it's new features made me feel that LW 9 is somewhat outdated and triggered my needs to upgrade my toolsets, since then, I've tried Blender 2.5, 3D-Coat & Modo while waiting for it's arrival. The longer I've tried with other apps, the more I found missing in LW … finally I bought 3D-Coat in Oct and 501 in X'mas because CORE is still a mystery.

Many members mentioned locking 5 upgrades at $495 is their main reason to get HC but I'm thinking the other way -- with $495 x 5 = $2475, what can I do with this budget to enhance my toolset immediately? I guess NT would not be happy knowing a customer thinks this way but I'm telling the truth, an un-loyal customer would just walk away without saying anything.

geothefaust
01-02-2011, 12:18 AM
I think LW10 is a very good deal for all pre-9 users, but I've got 9.6, fPrime and Sas, I'll wait for more CORE details to make my move.

When CORE was announced many Q's ago, it's new features made me feel that LW 9 is somewhat outdated and triggered my needs to upgrade my toolsets, since than, I've tried Blender 2.5, 3D-Coat & Modo while waiting for it's arrival. The longer I've tried with other apps, the more I found missing in LW … finally I bought 3D-Coat in Oct and 501 in X'mas because CORE is still a mystery.

Many members mentioned locking 5 upgrades at $495 is their main reason to get HC but I'm thinking the other way -- with $495 x 5 = $2475, what can I do with this budget to enhance my toolset immediately? I guess NT would not be happy knowing a customer thinks this way but I'm telling the truth, an un-loyal customer would just walk away without saying anything.

That is my thinking exactly, too. I've already picked up Messiah earlier last year and upgrade to 5, and soon I'll be getting Modo. No sense in waiting around for tools that may or may not ever show up. It made the most sense just to get what works right now instead of living on some empty promise of new tools, bug fixes and whatever else.

geo_n
01-02-2011, 01:42 AM
Many members mentioned locking 5 upgrades at $495 is their main reason to get HC but I'm thinking the other way -- with $495 x 5 = $2475, what can I do with this budget to enhance my toolset immediately? I guess NT would not be happy knowing a customer thinks this way but I'm telling the truth, an un-loyal customer would just walk away without saying anything.

Actually I think I'm the only one that mentioned 495US for the next 5 upgrades.
Personally, 495US is just right for the update to lightwave 10 plus the new core 1.0 which I expect to be a basic modeller much like modo 1.0, etc. How much was modo 1.o anyway?
More than 495, I would think twice before upgrading, really the price is a factor and I am using AD software at work, no more lightwave, it did cross my mind not to upgrade. But looking at other similar appz seems redundant, too. If they show something that can't be produced in lw then its worth looking at, like xsi,houdini,maya.3dmax,c4d stuff.:D

Bona
01-02-2011, 02:17 AM
Actually I think I'm the only one that mentioned 495US for the next 5 upgrades...
Some users in other threads also mentioned about that :D

I'm not switching away, just waiting for more info, when CORE does what NT said at the beginning of it's announcement (still remember the countdown? ), I think it'll worth more than the normal price at $695 and many will rush in for an upgrade.

gordonrobb
01-02-2011, 02:40 AM
Ahh, but I don't got that either :p
I don't really get anything out of the LW10 upgrade that isn't already covered by LW9.6 for what I do. The thing I was hoping for, is once again pushed back to some indeterminate time / release.
Just fed up I guess, I know a lot of folks will be delighted with the layout / render centric update once again, maybe it's just the LW I wanted is no longer the direction Newtek intend to take.
Everything is subject to change I guess, after all, change is, so they say, the only constant.
Maybe once the apparent fubar with people not being able to get reg. keys for the demo is sorted out, I may see if it is at least, any quicker than 9.6, possibly, assuming it also un-installs tidily too.

Colkai, I am with you in the dissapointment stakes but having paid to get in board with core yiu woukd be mad not to at least install ten. You won't have anything more to pay till version 11. And I am still hopefully that core will be something prior to 11. Also, whilt you don't do many proper renders, what VPR will give you is the ability to quickly fire your model over to Layout and have a 'rendered' look at it tumbling it about. Something you may not bother to do if you has to wait for F9.

Also, I have to say the linear workspace enhancements are superb for when you do want to render something.

JBT27
01-02-2011, 03:03 AM
The VPR is not displaying the Liberty3D Super Pano Cam at all accurately, in fact it's just plain not working with it ... whereas Fprime still displays the output from the pano cam correctly.

As I'm matching pano plates to LW, I had hoped the VPR would be a real bonus to this work, but quite the opposite.

So, what is Fprime rendering to show the camera correctly that apparently VPR just can't handle?

I've posted to the Liberty3D forums, but this seems very curious.

Julian.

funk
01-02-2011, 03:50 AM
The VPR is not displaying the Liberty3D Super Pano Cam at all accurately, in fact it's just plain not working with it ... whereas Fprime still displays the output from the pano cam correctly.

As I'm matching pano plates to LW, I had hoped the VPR would be a real bonus to this work, but quite the opposite.

So, what is Fprime rendering to show the camera correctly that apparently VPR just can't handle?

I've posted to the Liberty3D forums, but this seems very curious.

Julian.

The problem is that VPR isnt rendering a camera view, but an opengl view.
So VPR cant render any advanced cameras like the surface baking cam etc.

I sent feature requests in for this stuff during the beta.

JBT27
01-02-2011, 05:05 AM
Oh right ... that's a shame then ... but at least I have some way to deal with it then ... Fprime!

Julian.

colkai
01-02-2011, 05:40 AM
Many members mentioned locking 5 upgrades at $495 is their main reason to get HC but I'm thinking the other way -- with $495 x 5 = $2475, what can I do with this budget to enhance my toolset immediately?
That's what I thought too, not that I actually have 2475 to spend at the mo'. heck, I ain't even got 247.50 :p

Of course, we are spoilt these days as I inferred previously.
Blender, for a free package, has many things LW10 / CORE has, such as bullet physics, it also has fluids / smoke and includes an NLE to boot.
Compare that to Povray and Moray (which wasn't even free) and you think, hmm, yep, those folks asking us to part with hard cash better have something stunning to make it worthwhile. :)

IMI
01-02-2011, 05:56 AM
That is my thinking exactly, too. I've already picked up Messiah earlier last year and upgrade to 5, and soon I'll be getting Modo. No sense in waiting around for tools that may or may not ever show up. It made the most sense just to get what works right now instead of living on some empty promise of new tools, bug fixes and whatever else.


Well I saw all this coming over a year ago and pretty much decided LW was dead for all intents and purposes and there's little point in sticking around to mourn the corpse, so I tried Softimage, fell in love with it and haven't looked back since.
Like Bona said, once you get into some app that has the latest of everything, it just amplifies how much is missing from LW.
I want to keep up with what's happening on the LW front though, to see if the corpse will be resurrected one day, but each new piece of news I see about LW turns out to be mostly disappointment, or someone praising it for new features it should have had 5 years ago.
And then, since I really do love LW and have for quite some time, I get all pissed off and frustrated and end up writing posts like this one. ;)

Traveler
01-02-2011, 06:12 AM
Real nice, lw10 is two days old and already it's all about how much greener the grass is on the other side of the fence. :(

robertoortiz
01-02-2011, 06:12 AM
Well I saw all this coming over a year ago and pretty much decided LW was dead for all intents and purposes and there's little point in sticking around to mourn the corpse, so I tried Softimage, fell in love with it and haven't looked back since.
Like Bona said, once you get into some app that has the latest of everything, it just amplifies how much is missing from LW.
I want to keep up with what's happening on the LW front though, to see if the corpse will be resurrected one day, but each new piece of news I see about LW turns out to be mostly disappointment, or someone praising it for new features it should have had 5 years ago.
And then, since I really do love LW and have for quite some time, I get all pissed off and frustrated and end up writing posts like this one. ;)


OK let me put it this way.
Cut the dev team some slack.
The infrastructure of LW (that is the original code) can only be take so far. So yes i a way you got a point.
Thus the need for a new code base, one that allows for the app to be able to have its components to be able to talk to each other. Thus CORE.

We have been testig CORE for over a year, and it shows potential, BUT it is NOT ready yet.

frantbk
01-02-2011, 06:19 AM
my youtube video with VPR
my computer is a intel quadcore 2.4ghz [old]
nvidia 8500gt [poo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsZK8HaDi1I

Thanks for the link. I think I'm confusing VPR with Rob Powers demo of the virtual Cinematography, and the overhead that, that required.

Ryste3d
01-02-2011, 06:25 AM
Well if you ask me I could absolutely fall in love with LW 10. And I thought I did. But after playing around with her for a while I don't know any more. She is simply to unstable for me. And my life is to short
for that kind of a relationships.

How they manage to screw up LW 9.6 by adding a few "built in plug-in" and calling it LW 10 is very strange. I simply hope they forget all about Core at this point and focusing on getting LW back on track. We are already falling behind and now we have nothing. Absolutely nothing other than the most unstable LW ever.

I hope when Newtek sell LW 10 to new customers they also give them the opportunity to download the very old version of Lightwave: LW 9.6

zarti
01-02-2011, 06:26 AM
well ... 495 x 5 always and immediately gives 2475 in every calculator , but that goes dispersed in 5 upgrades .

if you wd immediately pay 2475 for an app today , rest assured that the next up wd cost at least 1000 + .

that ' immediate ' $$$ math doesn't seem fair without the time factor ...

... and it is there were lw was hurting me ; it simply is 5 years behind . they are trying to equalize that .

--

so the whole issue , imho , reduces itself in a single question ;

where anyone wd spend its next 5 years ??



.cheers

frantbk
01-02-2011, 06:31 AM
The pressure to release something by the end of the year is over so the focus can now shift from Layout/Modeler back to CORE.

VPR uses CPU power, not GPU power so you don't need a super graphics card for VPR. You don't need a 12 CPU system to get decent results with VPR. I'm getting decent results with my 2006 QuadCore MacPro. Of course, VPR performance is directly effected by the scene you're working on (polygon count, raytracing options, surface settings, lighting options, etc) and CPU power you have.

As I posted to cresshead. I think I'm confusing virtual cinematography (VC) with VPR. Which VC has other applications that Rob Powers didn't talk about. If you can use a camcorder to control the camera in virtual space then you should be able to use almost any other control to control an object in virtual space.

Think of it this way. You have a virtual person and ball in the scene, and you want the ball to go away from the camera and then bounce back. If VC supported a Wii controller then you could have the virtual person hit the ball. The ball flys away from the camera'(based on the Wii inputs) and then bounces back.

frantbk
01-02-2011, 06:36 AM
Well if you ask me I could absolutely fall in love with LW 10. And I thought I did. But after playing around with her for a while I don't know any more. She is simply to unstable for me. And my life is to short
for that kind of a relationships.

How they manage to screw up LW 9.6 by adding a few "built in plug-in" and calling it LW 10 is very strange. I simply hope they forget all about Core at this point and focusing on getting LW back on track. We are already falling behind and now we have nothing. Absolutely nothing other than the most unstable LW ever.

I hope when Newtek sell LW 10 to new customers they also give them the opportunity to download the very old version of Lightwave: LW 9.6

Here's on question for new purchasers of Lightwave 10. NewTek states that the new buyer will receive 5 upgrades of Lightwave 10. Is a bug fix an upgrade, or is an upgrade a release with enhanced functionality of new tool-sets?

My thinking is, is an upgrade is new tool-sets, but Newtek could be thinking bug fixes are upgrades. There needs to be some clarity on that issue.

Ryste3d
01-02-2011, 06:52 AM
Here's on question for new purchasers of Lightwave 10. NewTek states that the new buyer will receive 5 upgrades of Lightwave 10. Is a bug fix an upgrade, or is an upgrade a release with enhanced functionality of new tool-sets?

My thinking is, is an upgrade is new tool-sets, but Newtek could be thinking bug fixes are upgrades. There needs to be some clarity on that issue.


I don't know how it will be in the future but until now we only have to buy upgrades like 7, 8, 9. 10 and 7,5 8,5 9,6 is free upgrades/bug fix.

But with a timespand of 2 years for very .5 upgrade its a 10 year deal from Newtek.

cresshead
01-02-2011, 06:54 AM
The VPR is not displaying the Liberty3D Super Pano Cam at all accurately, in fact it's just plain not working with it ... whereas Fprime still displays the output from the pano cam correctly.

As I'm matching pano plates to LW, I had hoped the VPR would be a real bonus to this work, but quite the opposite.

So, what is Fprime rendering to show the camera correctly that apparently VPR just can't handle?

I've posted to the Liberty3D forums, but this seems very curious.

Julian.

VPR is a viewport renderer not a camera renderer...you can use VPR in perspective, front, back, left, right, top, bottom and lightviews...as well as camera views...the hint is in the lettering!:D

VIEW PORT RENDERER.....:eek::devil:

sorry to be so annoying but i think near everyone has missed this feature...

erikals
01-02-2011, 08:25 AM
Here's on question for new purchasers of Lightwave 10. NewTek states that the new buyer will receive 5 upgrades of Lightwave 10. Is a bug fix an upgrade, or is an upgrade a release with enhanced functionality of new tool-sets?....

...it's an upgrade release with enhanced functionality of new tool-sets.
(that means CORE 2.0 / 3.0 / 4.0 / 5.0 / 6.0)
(or possibly, CORE 1.5 / 2.0 / 2.5 / 3.0 / 3.5)

...but i seem to remember that some time back NT said they won't have any more .5 and such upgrades.

...anyway, what it means is that you'll get the official future upgrades for a very cheap price.

IMI
01-02-2011, 08:45 AM
OK let me put it this way.
Cut the dev team some slack.
The infrastructure of LW (that is the original code) can only be take so far. So yes i a way you got a point.
Thus the need for a new code base, one that allows for the app to be able to have its components to be able to talk to each other. Thus CORE.

We have been testig CORE for over a year, and it shows potential, BUT it is NOT ready yet.

I'm not giving the dev team a hard time. Not intentionally at least. I got over that a long time ago. I was just throwing in my story since a few others had too. Simple fact is, my needs surpassed Lightwave's development. And I bet for every one person who actually takes the time to write about it, several people just queitly walk away and say nothing.
The dev team really needs to hear from those of us who care but lost faith.
When I saw there was a LW 10 I got excited. Finally some progress, I thought. Then I read about it, watch some videos, read some forum posts and it looks to me like very little new has been offered, so yeah, it's a disappointment.

I don't have the time to devote to the demo right now, but I'll get around to it. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I'll at least give it the chance it deserves.

erikals
01-02-2011, 08:48 AM
you will get CORE for free though...

IMI
01-02-2011, 08:52 AM
sorry to be so annoying but i think near everyone has missed this feature...

Who missed it? It's a very nice camera renderer. How could anyone miss that? :rock:

Cageman
01-02-2011, 10:39 AM
Well, pretty much everyone do renders, so having a good and solid renderengine updated to take care of LCW for you is awesome. So, even for someone who use XSI for most of the work, the updates with new buffers, LCW and MDD/GeoCache/FBX are very usefull. If those updates are viewed as something not so important or worth the upgrade, then, perhaps rendering isn't something that is important in the first place.

erikals
01-02-2011, 11:24 AM
i've tried some Hypervoxel VPR previews, it's very welcome :]
fun stuff :]

universalpenman
01-02-2011, 01:12 PM
Hello there and Happy New Year!! BTW, I been trying LW10 trial since came out and I'm just hoping that the VPR is incredibly slow in my Rig,due some lack of.......something what is it? No clue so far, but I read in the sys req for LW10 that I need an gfx 8400 GPU card,
how good is that card no idea neither, I'm really upset with this because I' been waiting long time for this release, its good to mention that I' tried luxology 501 and i dont have any problems with the interactive render preview at all.... I' really wish somebody here in the forum can giveme a hand to find out what the problem can be with my really slow VPR on this trial.

Thanks!!

erikals
01-02-2011, 01:41 PM
VPR does not use the GPU, but rather you need an ok CPU (fast processor)

cresshead
01-02-2011, 02:08 PM
Hello there and Happy New Year!! BTW, I been trying LW10 trial since came out and I'm just hoping that the VPR is incredibly slow in my Rig,due some lack of.......something what is it? No clue so far, but I read in the sys req for LW10 that I need an gfx 8400 GPU card,
how good is that card no idea neither, I'm really upset with this because I' been waiting long time for this release, its good to mention that I' tried luxology 501 and i dont have any problems with the interactive render preview at all.... I' really wish somebody here in the forum can giveme a hand to find out what the problem can be with my really slow VPR on this trial.

Thanks!!

a few things to speed up VPR on a slower computer.

1. use only 1 viewport...not a quad view even if the other views are wireframe etc...VPR runs slower with quadview ports etc...
2. use limited region rendering in vpr
3. if your running on a HD screen [1920x1080] don't maximise lightwave, reduce lightwave to say 1280 x 720
4. try the half res opion in the viewport settings.
5. reboot lightwave...i've found that after sometime lightwave slooooows down with VPR...could be a memory leak in lightwave 10.
6. having open gl wireframe selcted option makes VPR 'twitchy' with constant refreshes

universalpenman
01-02-2011, 02:23 PM
Ok here is what I have in my computer:

OS: MS Win7 Pro 64 Bit
CPU: Intel Core i7 930 2.80 Ghz
RAM: 12Gigs DDR3 499 Mhz
GPU: nvidia Quadro FX580 LP 512 MB
LD: Apple Cinema Display 1680 x 1050


and yes my display is at high settings (1680x 1050) probably that's why, but I'll check it out right away thanks a lot for the info guy's ;)

calilifestyle
01-02-2011, 02:45 PM
Actually I think I'm the only one that mentioned 495US for the next 5 upgrades.
Personally, 495US is just right for the update to lightwave 10 plus the new core 1.0 which I expect to be a basic modeller much like modo 1.0, etc. How much was modo 1.o anyway?
More than 495, I would think twice before upgrading, really the price is a factor and I am using AD software at work, no more lightwave, it did cross my mind not to upgrade. But looking at other similar appz seems redundant, too. If they show something that can't be produced in lw then its worth looking at, like xsi,houdini,maya.3dmax,c4d stuff.:D

well in all honesty Modo 101 cost the same as an upgrade to lightwave 3d. when modo came out they offered cross competitors upgrades. So basically everyone that had any 3d program could have modo.

universalpenman
01-02-2011, 03:01 PM
Ohhhh man this is really cool!! :D but I still thinking that if newtek arrange that the VPR runs on GPU would be faster, because even that I have a good CPU seems like VPR is sucking all of it..... then Lightwave will be the s..t bro I'm almost shure of it, thats just my point of view as I' said, but so far is awesome that we have VPR ;) thumbs up for this to Newtek!!

IMI
01-02-2011, 04:29 PM
Well, pretty much everyone do renders, so having a good and solid renderengine updated to take care of LCW for you is awesome. So, even for someone who use XSI for most of the work, the updates with new buffers, LCW and MDD/GeoCache/FBX are very usefull. If those updates are viewed as something not so important or worth the upgrade, then, perhaps rendering isn't something that is important in the first place.

Well I've been doing most of my rendering lately in Softimage and going back and forth between SI and LW and Modo and ZBrush for modeling.
But I've really come to love mental ray in Softimage, mostly because I find the nodes more intuitive and easier to control, especially with gradients. And importons and irradiance particles are amazingly cool to work with, not to mention mental ray's caustics actually work. Have they done anything about the caustics with LW 10? Last time I tried it was like pulling teeth to get a decent caustic effect out of Layout.
However, for many things LW's render engine gives better results faster and the fact you can use either nodes or the older simple way of surfacing and mix and match the two makes some things a whole lot quicker. (For example, texturing with image maps in SI is a painful ordeal for some things) On the other hand you can save out material libraries in SI, which is a step up over saving out individual materials in LW... although you can create organized material collections in LW too - it just takes a little longer to set it up.
And... history stack, creation modes, animation layers...

Well it's like... nothing has it all. In a perfect world, there would be the all around perfect 3D app, but I have yet to see it. ;) Hopefully CORE is heading in that direction.

Truth is though I've spent MOST of my time over the past year learning ICE and Syflex and character rigging in Softimage. And now they throw Lagoa at us (with the Subscription Advantage Pack only), and it's a whole new thing to try wrap our heads around. But man is it cool... :D

I have every intention of trying out the LW 10 trial, particularly with FBX and simulations and although I doubt I'll want to upgrade, I'm hoping I at least come away from it feeling like it was worth the effort and feeling glad for the dev team.

I know you guys are working hard on CORE. Umm, no pun intended there. ;)
Cageman, you're one of the most talented 3D guys around here (not to mention a brutally efficient CoD player :D), and I'm glad that CORE has guys like you on it. I know you work in a professional capacity with Maya as well, in a game studio, and I'm confident that you are a strong voice in the HardCORE development trying to do your part to push it in the direction it needs to go.
As a result of yours and everyone elses efforts, I have every confidence that CORE will be the shiznik when it's released, and I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for new developments on the CORE front.
I feel kind of bad now for coming down so hard on LW 10 earlier, thinking about it, because you're right about what you wrote. PMS, I guess. ;)

Cageman
01-02-2011, 05:19 PM
Cageman, you're one of the most talented 3D guys around here (not to mention a brutally efficient CoD player :D), and I'm glad that CORE has guys like you on it. I know you work in a professional capacity with Maya as well, in a game studio, and I'm confident that you are a strong voice in the HardCORE development trying to do your part to push it in the direction it needs to go.
As a result of yours and everyone elses efforts, I have every confidence that CORE will be the shiznik when it's released, and I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for new developments on the CORE front.
I feel kind of bad now for coming down so hard on LW 10 earlier, thinking about it, because you're right about what you wrote. PMS, I guess. ;)

Haha... well, I'm certanly NOT one of the most talented 3D guys here... I might have an idea or two how to solve things, but other than that... no way... but thanks for your nice words. :) And yeah... it was way too long time since we had a COD4 battle. :)

Regarding XSI and MR... I've heard that it is the best implementation of MR in any package, but this is actually not a good measure, because Maya is quite bad, and 3DS Max is slightly better. Where makes that XSI MR stand then? :)

Honestly though, there have been alot of people who have said that if MR is important to use, then go XSI, so I'm not surprised you've got hooked. Hopefully more goodies will be revealed regarding LW/CORE and all that, but as long as LW delivers what I see as good bang for the buck (and, yes there is still quite some if you surround yourself with good artists and other apps that do take care of the shortcommings of LW) I will keep using and abusing it as much as I can... it IS fun. :)

Oh, and while it is true that I work with Maya/LW/Mbuilder at a games-studio, the stuff I usually do are either Ingame Cutscenes or fullblown pre-rendered cinematics, so, I've seen both worlds from within those apps and together they do form a very solid ground.

:)

tyrot
01-02-2011, 11:32 PM
actually using CPU for VPR is a bit old fashion.. what do you think? Especially i m very spoiled after using Octane Renderer runs on GPU..

BTW ... i really think as Colkai here. We have almost (in some areas better some areas not even close) an Fprimish implementation.

I watched couple of times promotion videos, I loved the style (seeing veterans always a nice cool (especially he WHO doesnt use NT forums anymore!..he Who knows himself!))
but THIS is NOT anything new. If there was NO Fprime on the face of earth ..than OK..this is revolutionary. But come on everybody has it.

So worley can make his own promotional video "Lw artists can work faster better than ever etc etc " and put the stamp year 2004 (i dont remember exact time) Come on..come on..

"I also think he is one of the best 3D artist and THE santa of this community" Mr. Cageman, the improvements they put here in LW10 must be working in 9.6 right.. So the things you promised to put in 9.6 ..here in LW10... FBX etc...

Plus riggy issues...Only thing sounds exciting is Linear Workflow...etc..

Zero care to modeler...Colkai..."Honestly i dont think NT should touch its own modeler..." LWCAD's Victor should release new versions from now on (pictrix, trueart couple of others should help him...)

There were lots of promising plugins there, Turbulent for example..Why dont you spend a month to add Bullet to LW10.. Or get some bundle deal with 3D coat...

Weakest link in LW chain... I guess i ll update just for supporting development of LW's future..

Bona
01-02-2011, 11:46 PM
I think we should stop comparing other apps with LW 10, we all know it's just a stepping stone to CORE, I do miss some functions in LW when using Modo & Blender, none of them are perfect in all fields. I pass this upgrade because with my tools in hand, adding LW 10 could only offer me a little boost in productivity atm. For those who don't have LW yet, $895 for a full version is a steal!!:agree:

Hi Cageman, I know you're a dedicated HC member, would u mind proposing an importer for CORE to read NATIVE files from Modo, Blender? That'll be a killer feature for CORE to get the users back. If there'll be too much trouble to get the jobs back to CORE, a lot of users will be gone for good. I hope this "reader" can convert all procedurals, hair/fur data into CORE's native format, AFAIK, hair solution is totally different in these 3 apps but it's not impossible. I can see all HC members are very helpful in development of CORE, but die-hard supporters might miss some functions that's useful for users of other apps. :D

geo_n
01-03-2011, 04:32 AM
If there is any format worth coding for import into core, it is max and maya. But highly unlikely due to closed format.
From turbosquid data, the top 3 3d format that is being used by their clients, which imho is a good representation since they're the number one 3d content provider worldwide, is max, maya and.....drumroll.....lightwave.
Lightwave is far from dead, especially as a 3d format.
There are hundred thousands of lwo models that are easily convertible to other formats.
That's why in hc forum I keep mention to make core backward compatible with lw format. Its worth saving.:thumbsup:
Sad to say but modo and especially blender don't sell much in 3d sites. Given that many studios worldwide, including the studio I work for, buy 3d assets all the time, its a good indication of how popular a 3d format is. And lwo is top ranking :D:thumbsup:

MAUROCOR
01-03-2011, 07:06 AM
I was playing with Hypervoxels and VPR... that is incredible! Great feature, NT, congrats on that one!:)

MacDoggie
01-03-2011, 09:23 AM
I'm not giving the dev team a hard time. Not intentionally at least. I got over that a long time ago. I was just throwing in my story since a few others had too. Simple fact is, my needs surpassed Lightwave's development. And I bet for every one person who actually takes the time to write about it, several people just queitly walk away and say nothing.
The dev team really needs to hear from those of us who care but lost faith.
When I saw there was a LW 10 I got excited. Finally some progress, I thought. Then I read about it, watch some videos, read some forum posts and it looks to me like very little new has been offered, so yeah, it's a disappointment.

I don't have the time to devote to the demo right now, but I'll get around to it. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I'll at least give it the chance it deserves.

Understood and under the circumstances I certainly would/not could not fault you for that perspective... I don't expect it to be without casualties or loss. NT is running out of chances so from this point on they will ave to maintain a really tight ship. They just don't have the luxury that they had in the past mainly because (I mean this in a constructive way) they have made far too many mistakes. They have the talent they just need to be real careful how they run the next development phases in days to come.

MacDoggie
01-03-2011, 09:35 AM
Hello there and Happy New Year!! BTW, I been trying LW10 trial since came out and I'm just hoping that the VPR is incredibly slow in my Rig,due some lack of.......something what is it? No clue so far, but I read in the sys req for LW10 that I need an gfx 8400 GPU card,
how good is that card no idea neither, I'm really upset with this because I' been waiting long time for this release, its good to mention that I' tried luxology 501 and i dont have any problems with the interactive render preview at all.... I' really wish somebody here in the forum can giveme a hand to find out what the problem can be with my really slow VPR on this trial.

Thanks!!

Modo is now sporting a Ray GL preview mode which is truly amazing. It is not dependent on your card it focuses instead on your CPU capacity. Good performance with a dual quad but even better with a 12 core model. It is really nice, I don't even use the previewer as much as I used to. As to the previewer in Modo you don't have to resort to turning it down to "daft" mode for it to work as expected. You only resort to that when truly large scenes are in progress and the new previewer in Modo 501 is now twice as fast... Pretty nice stuff indeed.

However, I am appreciative of what NT is offering in this release. The enhanced environment is a lot more tolerant of larger scenes and VPR is actually performing as it was supposed to. I never cared for VPR and only used it to preview volumetric s and that was dicey as well. So, yes VPR is as some put it something that should have been resolved sometime ago. Nevertheless it is a welcome addition to working in LW...

Since we are on the subject of LW, do people still use HD Instance around here?? What type of instancing system is available???

MacDoggie
01-03-2011, 09:46 AM
I think we should stop comparing other apps with LW 10,

Hi Cageman, I know you're a dedicated HC member, would u mind proposing an importer for CORE to read NATIVE files from Modo, Blender? That'll be a killer feature for CORE to get the users back. If there'll be too much trouble to get the jobs back to CORE, a lot of users will be gone for good. I hope this "reader" can convert all procedurals, hair/fur data into CORE's native format, AFAIK, hair solution is totally different in these 3 apps but it's not impossible. I can see all HC members are very helpful in development of CORE, but die-hard supporters might miss some functions that's useful for users of other apps. :D


Perhaps you are right, In regards to Mod to Core, can't you just export as a .LW object??? Or does core not read .LW objects??... You can always bake the procedurals as to hair well that seems like quite an undertaking and I would be very surprised (albeit pleasantly) to see success in this aspect... Please do prove me wrong as nothing would make me happier... :D

Bona
01-03-2011, 10:56 AM
Perhaps you are right, In regards to Mod to Core, can't you just export as a .LW object??? Or does core not read .LW objects??... You can always bake the procedurals as to hair well that seems like quite an undertaking and I would be very surprised (albeit pleasantly) to see success in this aspect... Please do prove me wrong as nothing would make me happier... :D

Yea, bake and save as lwo is one solution but it's somewhat destructive, it'd be perfect if CORE can let us continue to modify procedurals without going back to the source. As for hair, I think FFX is capable to reproduce similar effects in many apps, the conversion process might act like "reverse-rendering" to get all data back to FFX, at least it's possible in my imagination.:goodluck:

Imatk
01-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Ok so LW10 does NOT have Bullet physics... why do I remember seeing a video showing the Bullet physics running in Layout?

colkai
01-03-2011, 11:05 AM
That was CORE - methinks there is some juggling around going on.
If you need Bullet Physics now though, Blender has it.

erikals
01-03-2011, 11:39 AM
yes, but please note that you cannot export that bullet explosions to LW,
as Blender can't export multiple objects with animation in an MDD file... :[

MacDoggie
01-03-2011, 12:22 PM
Yea, bake and save as lwo is one solution but it's somewhat destructive, it'd be perfect if CORE can let us continue to modify procedurals without going back to the source. As for hair, I think FFX is capable to reproduce similar effects in many apps, the conversion process might act like "reverse-rendering" to get all data back to FFX, at least it's possible in my imagination.:goodluck:

Ah yes, in a perfect world:thumbsup:

hazmat777
01-03-2011, 12:48 PM
Anybody know if Photo Real Motion Blur works with particles and hypervoxels?
Thanks for any update :D

frantbk
01-04-2011, 04:36 PM
I think we should stop comparing other apps with LW 10, we all know it's just a stepping stone to CORE, I do miss some functions in LW when using Modo & Blender, none of them are perfect in all fields. I pass this upgrade because with my tools in hand, adding LW 10 could only offer me a little boost in productivity atm. For those who don't have LW yet, $895 for a full version is a steal!!:agree:

Hi Cageman, I know you're a dedicated HC member, would u mind proposing an importer for CORE to read NATIVE files from Modo, Blender? That'll be a killer feature for CORE to get the users back. If there'll be too much trouble to get the jobs back to CORE, a lot of users will be gone for good. I hope this "reader" can convert all procedurals, hair/fur data into CORE's native format, AFAIK, hair solution is totally different in these 3 apps but it's not impossible. I can see all HC members are very helpful in development of CORE, but die-hard supporters might miss some functions that's useful for users of other apps. :D


Even at $895.00 I don't see any reason to buy Lightwave 10. The same reason for not buying Lightwave 9.x back in 2008-2009 are still there. If NewTek is still intent on running Lightwave 9.x, now renamed 10, while they poke around with several releases of Core at half capacity of Lightwave 10. I think people will just walk away from it.

4th quarter of 2011 will be the breaking point. If NewTek misses the date, it pretty much a done deal that Lightwave is a dead product. If Core is released, and it doesn't have all of lightwave 10 in it, and all of the unified work area, history and more then people will refuse to pay $1495.00 for Core.

I can wait. Too much of Lightwave Core history is starting to look like that of Electric Image and Softimage's history of bad starts. We all know what happened to those two over time. I can wait.

Netvudu
01-04-2011, 05:30 PM
what happened to Softimage? it´s still here and kicking, even if it´s now being developed by Palpatine.

Lightwolf
01-04-2011, 05:41 PM
If Core is released, and it doesn't have all of lightwave 10 in it, and all of the unified work area, history and more then people will refuse to pay $1495.00 for Core.
It won't... no way it will.

Cheers,
Mike

3D Kiwi
01-04-2011, 05:45 PM
what happened to Softimage? it´s still here and kicking, even if it´s now being developed by Palpatine.

I think he is talking about Version 1 of XSI. We have a guy working here that used it and when the softimage people came around and gave us a demo of XSI 7 they apologised to him for XSI v1. Apparently it was pretty much usless and most studios then switched to maya. I think softimage3D was used in Jurassic Park and Softimage3D was then the king of the hill. But XSI v1 killed that and they had to play catch up. The difference is that they did catch up. Many versions ago. Got it fixed and it is now a very well thought out and powerful program.
Where Newtek dropped the ball (blame Brad if you have to) and are still struggling to get Lightwave up to par with the other apps out there.

That is my understanding of it anyway.

MacDoggie
01-04-2011, 06:46 PM
Hi Cageman, I know you're a dedicated HC member, would u mind proposing an importer for CORE to read NATIVE files from Modo, Blender? That'll be a killer feature for CORE to get the users back. If there'll be too much trouble to get the jobs back to CORE, a lot of users will be gone for good. I hope this "reader" can convert all procedurals, hair/fur data into CORE's native format, AFAIK, hair solution is totally different in these 3 apps but it's not impossible. I can see all HC members are very helpful in development of CORE, but die-hard supporters might miss some functions that's useful for users of other apps. :D

Please please please!!!!

It is an interesting time for me in 3D. My process begins with sizing up what needs to be accomplished and deciding which app the project should go with. You also have to factor in the possibility the the client might ask for animation. In my case that would be LW hands down. Modo is lacking in that it is incomplete. It has issues rendering animated GI. The work flow is a bit clunky IMO. Maybe I am just used to LW but it feels so good to animate in LW after flailing about in Modo in regards to animation. Anything that can help facilitate the hand off process would be most welcome...

So once more for the folks back home (hi mom) Please please please!!!

MacDoggie
01-04-2011, 06:50 PM
That was CORE - methinks there is some juggling around going on.
If you need Bullet Physics now though, Blender has it.

What's funny is that every app for the most part seems to have an adjunct in the pipe. It's getting to be the norm to use a suite of tools to accomplish goals in 3D these days... No one app seems to have it cornered.:hey:

erikals
01-04-2011, 07:31 PM
...an importer for CORE to read NATIVE files from Modo, Blender?

done, posted in the HC feature request section,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1097096#post1097096
(note 4 newbies, you need to be a HC member to access this link)

 

nbdy
01-04-2011, 10:35 PM
Unclear about this...
Bought the LW 10 upgrade couple months ago. Will the upgrade physically ship or is it only available via download?

What about the free rigging dvd?

hrgiger
01-04-2011, 10:46 PM
Unclear about this...
Bought the LW 10 upgrade couple months ago. Will the upgrade physically ship or is it only available via download?

What about the free rigging dvd?

If you just bought a few months ago, you should receive the rigging DVD in the mail. People who bought earlier last year will only be able to download it.

Lightwave 10 is currently available as a download and the hardcopy will ship later.

Bona
01-04-2011, 10:55 PM
done, posted in the HC feature request section,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1097096#post1097096
(note 4 newbies, you need to be a HC member to access this link)

 

Thank you, erikals :bowdown:

frantbk
01-07-2011, 01:19 PM
what happened to Softimage? it´s still here and kicking, even if it´s now being developed by Palpatine.

What happened to it. The company that owned Softimage was bought by Microsoft. Which was going to use it to enter the 3D market by making Softimage XSI. Five years one of the biggest clusterf**ks of management. Softimage was sold to Avid. Avid then struggled and worked to turn the product line around for the last (what?) 10 years. Then Bang sold it of to Autodesk. Everyone was surprised because they thought Softimage was doing great (After the sale of Maya to Autodesk). If Softimage is doing so great at Autodesk then why isn't it listed on the main page of the Autodesk website along with 3D Max and Maya?

frantbk
01-07-2011, 01:26 PM
It won't... no way it will.

Cheers,
Mike

If it doesn't, then watch out for the backlash of people complaining about overpricing of Core - $1495.00 isn't realistic for Lightwave Core if it is mostly Silo 2.2, Modo 101. NewTek will have to have something close to modo 501/601 to justify $1495.00. There is no way NewTek can package Lightwave 10 and Core like Cinema 4D. The current Pricing is all wrong and ***-backwards for capability (from your comment).

dwburman
01-07-2011, 08:28 PM
The $1495.00 is for Core+Modeler+Layout, not just Core. Basically, Core will cost $600 ($1495-$895). It may seem overpriced, but we're used to low prices and no maintenance fees. The question is what else is on the market that gives you the A to W feature set (I'd say A to Z, but we're missing fluid sims, decent painting on meshes/sculpting, and a few other key features of modern apps).

MacDoggie
01-08-2011, 10:21 AM
The $1495.00 is for Core+Modeler+Layout, not just Core. Basically, Core will cost $600 ($1495-$895). It may seem overpriced, but we're used to low prices and no maintenance fees. The question is what else is on the market that gives you the A to W feature set (I'd say A to Z, but we're missing fluid sims, decent painting on meshes/sculpting, and a few other key features of modern apps).

You bring some good points but as someone who uses Modo, I feel I might be able to contribute something...

I started using Modo out of necessity. I had issues with the lack of development in NT Modeller and at that time I found it to be very limiting in respect to high poly meshes as well as broken support for certain plug-ins. True, I could have bought some third party plugs once everything leveled out but at that time I wasn't too keen on having to rely anymore on third party plugs. I had an old seat of Modo so I dusted it off and upgraded and gave it a go. What i found was that first of all Modo was a joy to work with, Modlelling-wise. Modelling was actually fun again. The UV tools totally rocked! UV in LW made my head hurt, I personally found it to be a rather brutal process... Modo was a great modelling UV compliment to LW (which is why I can afford to be so magnanimous about the lack of progress in the development of Modelling tools. I have a solution and it works. The offering of the new P SubD modelling in Modo's 501 release further enhances Modo's modeling capabilities. We are now using modo more and more for the rendering of stills. Right we have to deal with the shader tree. While not necessarily a fan I now have a new found respect for it. It is truly a very powerful set up. However I still feel that that approach falls apart when your a scene reaches a certain complexity then you get mired in a quagmire of a layering system that vexes even the most accomplished on Modonauts... Personally I feel Lightwave has the best surfacing system it is IMO a great blend if the standard layering concept enhanced with a hybrid nodal system... sweet! Why put up with the shader Tree??? The answer is simple, Modo's rendering engine... It rocks! Especially for stills. Throw in Modo's instancing and replicators and you have a very formidable rendering solution.

When NT does deliver it modelling tools I am EXPECTING it to rival Modo in capabilities... Hands down. If not, no worries mate, I still have Modo. For us LW is king in regards to animation and the rendering of sequences but modo is garnering more and more of the other aspects of 3D simply because for us it is the best tool at the moment. So we are still waiting for NT to deliver and we can afford to wait.

In regards to modo's painting tools... here is my disconnect with modo. The painting tools are at best minimum. I use the paint tools in a very minimalistic sense. I still rely on BodyPaint for full featured painting. You can get UV Coat as well for a very reasonable price and it works very well. To be honest from my perspective, if you buy Modo for it's painting capabilities, you will be disappointed if not downright pissed.

Sculpting, again minimal at best in Modo Although the 501 release with muti-Res sculpting is going to add a very new twist to Modo's sculpting capabilities. It looks very promising and when I have a chance to try it I can say more. Regardless most people that do phenomenal sculpting in Modo do it Z brush or Mudbox or if they can afford it Mari when it debuts.

So from my perspective Modo is a great tool but it is lacking in some regards and is still a work in progress. Nevertheless it is a perfect compliment to LW and two lend very well to each other. I personally appreciate what NT has offered up for now the VPR is something I can definitely use as well as the ability to manage higher poly counts and complex scenes. Anything to enhance the present work flow is welcome. From a Mac perspective this upgrade is a welcome respite due to the 64 bit builds of LW which adds even more capability as well as the enhancements to the rendering engine... Good stuff! for me anyway and well worth the price i paid for it. I for one am glad I bought in when I did. It is still cheaper than buying a seat of Maya or C4Dfor a rendering/animation solution....

Oh and this is not necessarily a Modo cheering section you can of course insert any application that fills this niche...

MaDDoX
01-08-2011, 10:59 AM
But not really a new idea being that all the major programs have had their own VPR for years now. ;)
Are you actually saying that all (any?) of the major 3D competitors to Lightwave have anything comparable to VPR built-in? :oye:

IMI
01-08-2011, 11:36 AM
Are you actually saying that all (any?) of the major 3D competitors to Lightwave have anything comparable to VPR built-in? :oye:

Well, yeah, I guess I am. :D

Modo 501 has its new viewport render thing, which, according to neverko in a recent Modo 501 thread here, also offers the ability to mouse over and "paint" the area that you want preview rendered, and the CPU will concentrate its efforts there. Not like drawing a region, but physically interactively changing the region via mouse, as far as I understand it. And from what I've seen of the modo 501 demo vids it looks like it is pretty damn comparable to LW 10s new VPR, if not exceeding it in terms of usefulness.
But modo has also had built-in interactive rendering for a while now.

And Maya has the IPR, which it's had for a long time, and Softimage has two methods of interactive rendering - one where you draw out a region in a viewport and it will continue updating as you change things, and another where you open a render window and it updates in real time according to your render settings. What makes Softimage's system stand out though is the ability to have multiple regions drawn or render windows open in multiple viewports, each with their own specific quality settings, each able to render a different camera as well as different passes. :)
It's worth mentioning that Maya and Softimage also both have the ability to store preview renders in their IPR windows for the purpose of comparison.

And 3ds max has its own thing - Active Shade, although I don't think it's quite as powerful as Maya's IPR or Softimage's multiple IPR's/render views. And Softimage has a couple additional features in its Render Tree and Material Manager windows - the ability to preview not only shader balls, but also 3D and 2D previews on a shader ball that are actually mental ray renders, not just approximations.

And I will assume Cinema 4D has something similar, but I really don't know.

Are all these comparable? Yes, of course they are - they all do pretty much the same thing - give you a reasonable representation of what your render will look like, some better than others.

Why, what makes LW 10's so special that you have to toss a :oye: at me?

danielkaiser
01-08-2011, 11:36 AM
done, posted in the HC feature request section,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1097096#post1097096
(note 4 newbies, you need to be a HC member to access this link)

 

You don't need to be a HC member to make a feature request, use FogBugs (https://secure.newtek.com/FogBugz/default.asp?pg=pgPublicEdit)

*Pete*
01-08-2011, 11:44 AM
The question is what else is on the market that gives you the A to W feature set (I'd say A to Z, but we're missing fluid sims, decent painting on meshes/sculpting, and a few other key features of modern apps).

CORE has Bullet dynamics in it, and far as i understand it Bullet is developed outside of NT and any advances for Bullet will end up in CORE.

I have seen some Bullet dynamics experiments (by those who develop Bullet) to make it into a cheap & effective fluid simulation...so, it really wouldnt suprise me if CORE will have a "fluid simulator" in near future.


as for sculpting...CORE has some simple (very simple) sculpting functionality already, as CORE matures im sure this will also be improved on.

painting?...at the moment no, but who knows...i have 3DC for sculpting and painting anyway and i very much doubt that NT (or anyone else) can make a more effective and intuitive sculpting/painting app/feature than 3DC is today.

MacDoggie
01-08-2011, 12:08 PM
Well, yeah, I guess I am. :D

Modo 501 has its new viewport render thing, which, according to neverko in a recent Modo 501 thread here, also offers the ability to mouse over and "paint" the area that you want preview rendered, and the CPU will concentrate its efforts there. Not like drawing a region, but physically interactively changing the region via mouse, as far as I understand it. And from what I've seen of the modo 501 demo vids it looks like it is pretty damn comparable to LW 10s new VPR, if not exceeding it in terms of usefulness.
But modo has also had built-in interactive rendering for a while now.

And Maya has the IPR, which it's had for a long time, and Softimage has two methods of interactive rendering - one where you draw out a region in a viewport and it will continue updating as you change things, and another where you open a render window and it updates in real time according to your render settings. What makes Softimage's system stand out though is the ability to have multiple regions drawn or render windows open in multiple viewports, each with their own specific quality settings, each able to render a different camera as well as different passes. :)
It's worth mentioning that Maya and Softimage also both have the ability to store preview renders in their IPR windows for the purpose of comparison.

And 3ds max has its own thing - Active Shade, although I don't think it's quite as powerful as Maya's IPR or Softimage's multiple IPR's/render views. And Softimage has a couple additional features in its Render Tree and Material Manager windows - the ability to preview not only shader balls, but also 3D and 2D previews on a shader ball that are actually mental ray renders, not just approximations.

And I will assume Cinema 4D has something similar, but I really don't know.

Are all these comparable? Yes, of course they are - they all do pretty much the same thing - give you a reasonable representation of what your render will look like, some better than others.

Why, what makes LW 10's so special that you have to toss a :oye: at me?

Well Nervko would know... : ) Modo's previewer is on par with that of VPR. The regional rendering is nice but does have some issues. Hopefully the next SP (service pak) will alleviate the issues at the moment. So, yes Modo does have a regional rendering feature but it is not quite there yet...
But the previwer rocks always has and from the looks of it it always will. The new RayGL is also very impressive and in some cases I use it over the previewer.

caesar
01-08-2011, 02:41 PM
In personal tests, Lw 10's VPR is way faster than Modo 501 previewer. If the scene is not heavy in shaders (energy saving materials, SSS, etc) and 4k textures I can use it full screen every time, while not in modo. The performance of soft shadows, transparency with IOR, reflection s and GI are incredible. I lost many hours playing with volumetric lights and hypervoxels!!!

hrgiger
01-08-2011, 03:43 PM
Why, what makes LW 10's so special that you have to toss a :oye: at me?

Well, the one thing that makes VPR stand out is that it is more like a viewport shading method(although it gives nearly identical output to the F9 render in most cases) so you can see your widgets/scene helpers in the render so you can manipulate objects directly within the VPR.

Cageman
01-08-2011, 04:16 PM
And Maya has the IPR, which it's had for a long time

That doesn't mean it is good, now does it? And it doesn't behave at all like FPrime, VPR, Modo Previewer etc... If you want similar behaviour and interactivity in Maya, you should get this. (http://www.holomatix.com/cat/rendition/)

:)

MacDoggie
01-08-2011, 04:51 PM
In personal tests, Lw 10's VPR is way faster than Modo 501 previewer. If the scene is not heavy in shaders (energy saving materials, SSS, etc) and 4k textures I can use it full screen every time, while not in modo. The performance of soft shadows, transparency with IOR, reflection s and GI are incredible. I lost many hours playing with volumetric lights and hypervoxels!!!


Try setting the settings to the lowest common denominator then you will see a bit of a balance. Or try using the VPR when it is not in draft mode : ).


Actually they are pretty evenly matched so it is really not worth getting into a pissing match about. Regardless, I feel the enhanced VPR
is a very welcome component to Lightwave. Although it should have been this way sometime ago...

3D Kiwi
01-08-2011, 07:19 PM
After playing with LW10s vpr i have to say i still find xsi render region far more usefull. Sure its not a interactive render like vpr or modos. But you can do so much more with it. It has its own render settings seperate to the final render settings so you can in most cases get a very fast update.
Also the fact you can transfur the render region setting to you output render setting through the render manager. Were as vpr i found the render to be quite different compared to f9 causing me to have to render f9s to tweek anyway. Also the fact you can pause and unpause the xsi render region. Track one animated object, See motion blur dof. All buffers including custom ones. Save the regions (up to 4) and revert lighting and basic shaders back to the one you liked best. I think vpr has a long way to go. Sure its fast but i have found the look to be way different to a final f9 (I could be doing somthing wrong there) that it ends up being almost useless. Im sure they will improve it in time. But the time i have spent in 10 so far makes me quite happy i didnt give newtek any of my money.

rwhunt99
01-08-2011, 08:25 PM
I've been using vpr in the beta version and it tends to crash a lot, so I've learned to be careful about moving things around when using it. I hope the gold edition is more stable. I did spend the money and I'm not upset, in fact, I'm quite happy, but then I'm not much of a whiner like some. I'd rather just do what I can and work around the problems when I can't. It's just a tool.

IMI
01-08-2011, 09:59 PM
@ hrgiger and Cageman:

Well I did say in my previous post "...they all do pretty much the same thing - give you a reasonable representation of what your render will look like, some better than others."

That was in response to the other dude's ludicrous suggestion that other competing apps don't have anything comparable, so my whole post was just to show that yes, they do.

From Dictionary.com"
Comparable:
adjective
1.
capable of being compared; having features in common with something else to permit or suggest comparison

It just irritated me that he tossed that "oye" graphic at me, like he had made some profound point or something. ;)

Well I still have yet to even try LW 10's VPR, which is why I refrained from passing any judgment on it.
Hell for all I know it may be not only the single greatest 3D feature of all time, but may go down in history as the very pinnacle of human achievement, and may spawn both wars and world peace alike.
They might inscribe the code on a gold record and blast it into space for all the universe to enjoy one day for all I know.
They may already be talking about doing that. I bet there are spies in Texas from all the world over right now attempting to infiltrate Newtek. ;)

Netvudu
01-08-2011, 10:53 PM
No, no,noooo, wait a moment please.
Let´s be clear about something. I get when people discuss about LW not having rigging tools or animations tools to match XSI, or FX tools that match Maya or ICE or whatever. In fact I agree.
Now, if this very same people that "defends" this points (if defending a software is needed at all, :p) now come and want to stablish a fair comparison between LW´s VPR and XSI render region or Maya´s IPR, I will laugh and think all their previous points are nothing but marketing blah,blah.
I have tried Maya´s IPR and XSI render region (and Houdini´s IPR, and MAX Vray RT, Arion and afew more) and they don´t even get remotely close to the usefulness and specially the responsiveness you get from LW. I mean, the sole comparison is like a bad joke. Maya´s IPR is like a qualified VIPER and XSI render region is sloooooooooooooow like hell. Obviously, if you create a mini-little-tiny square with ultra low antialias you get fast feedback, go figure.


Please, I understand commenting the weak points of LW and stablishing comparisons with the other packages, but if we are not going to critic seriously, then please, better refrain from it. I really don´t want to read any more marketing than what Autodesk already does.

LW´s VPR is great. Other preview renderers commented here (I´m not referring to Modo here) suck by comparison. Unless, some brand new ultra fast version of all the other packages came out yesterday and I didn´t check them.

IMI
01-08-2011, 11:16 PM
I have tried Maya´s IPR and XSI render region (and Houdini´s IPR, and MAX Vray RT, Arion and afew more) and they don´t even get remotely close to the usefulness and specially the responsiveness you get from LW. I mean, the sole comparison is like a bad joke. Maya´s IPR is like a qualified VIPER and XSI render region is sloooooooooooooow like hell. Obviously, if you create a mini-little-tiny square with ultra low antialias you get fast feedback, go figure.


Well then please explain to me all the points that make LW's VPR so much above and beyond everything else.
I would hardly compare Maya's IPR to VIPER. VIPER sucks, IPR is fairly accurate. Even just *using* VIPER is a pain in the ***, while IPR just needs to be closed and reopened from time to time.
Softimage's render region and render preview are entirely customizable to suit the purpose and are far from slow.

As I said, maybe LW 10's VPR is *all that and more*, but all I've read is people saying it's super-duper hot and everything else blows.
The only realistic comments I think I've read about it are when cresshead said it's not a replacement for a real F9 camera render, and what hrgiger said up above. Sorry if I missed anyone who wasn't just trying to "sell" it. ;)

And that's the truth about all of them - they're preview renders. How well they perform is probably directly related to what you use them for and how far you push them.

And "usefulness" is in the eye of the beholder.
For all kinds of reasons I find my 5/16ths nut driver to be eminently useful, but I bet 90% of the population would disagree. ;)

Intuition
01-08-2011, 11:23 PM
Well, no one really uses maya's IPR the same way one would use F-Prime or Vpr.

BUT>>>> huge but... people in a certain beta do use Maya with Vray RT and this is like using F-Prime or VPR for sure only its better because.... DRUM ROLL... its F&*(ing Vray and its IN MAYA.

Sorry. Just had to check in from the Church of Maya. ;D

I just noticed LW10 is out. Pretty neat stuff in there for LW users for sure.

IMI
01-09-2011, 12:24 AM
Thanks for the link Cageman. :)
But no, I don't want anything in Maya, really. The only times I ever get to use Maya is when a new version comes out and I can get the demo. I have 4 good quad core PCs, so I can use each version for free for 4 months. :D
Truth is though, I just do it to learn various things in Maya, because I figure I probably ought to. Maybe one day they'll make a version I like, but I find modeling with it to be a painful ordeal (compared to Softimage, LW and Modo), and hypershade drives me nuts. Plus mental ray is just plain weird in Maya sometimes and somewhat slower than in Softimage. Personally I find Softimage to be far easier and more fun to use overall than Maya.

To Intuition:
Nothing against the Church of Maya, you understand. :D
If I were a pro 3D animator working on films or at a game studio I'd probably have a much different take on it.

cresshead
01-09-2011, 03:35 AM
The $1495.00 is for Core+Modeler+Layout, not just Core. Basically, Core will cost $600 ($1495-$895). It may seem overpriced, but we're used to low prices and no maintenance fees. The question is what else is on the market that gives you the A to W feature set (I'd say A to Z, but we're missing fluid sims, decent painting on meshes/sculpting, and a few other key features of modern apps).

1.Lightwave 9 + blender 2.5
2.Blender 2.5
3.Modo + Messiah
4.modo + Blender
5.messiah + Blender
6.cinema4d prime plus blender
7.cinema 4d prime + messiah
8. lightwave 9 + messiah
9.lightwave 9 + modo

http://www.awn.com/files/imagepicker/1/light02_Figure-001.jpg

http://pouvoir-choisir.org/logiciel-libre/public/blender_screenshot.png
http://www.cgfocus.com/images/article/modo/picture_002.jpg

http://lesterbanks.com/lxb_metal/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/messiah-studio-5-features-release.jpg

http://www.maxon.net/uploads/pics/screen_prime.jpg

:)

Intuition
01-09-2011, 10:27 AM
Personally I find Softimage to be far easier and more fun to use overall than Maya.

To Intuition:
Nothing against the Church of Maya, you understand. :D
If I were a pro 3D animator working on films or at a game studio I'd probably have a much different take on it.

Well IMI, I am not going to rough you up for using Softimage. It really is top notch. I miss it sometimes. Thankfully I don't have to use Mray much in maya at DD. Usually we use Vray with the occasional Mray trick for one of the passes if needed.

Maya and XSi are my two favorite generalist packages along with modo for modeling.

I have rigged characters in both XSi and Maya and they are pretty much identical in that sense. XSi having a few more modeling chops then maya with local group transforms/rotation/scale.

The VPR in Lightwave is really really nice. There is no doubting that. XSi's render region can be very effective though does not have the frame rate that VPR does in terms of using a virtual camera.

Even though I am egging it on about Vray RT its not as fast as VPR yet. You can move the camera around and see it update fast in the window but the response in VPR is just a bit better.

Vray RT may be out in public beta for Softimage in 2011. Vlado mentioned that the render region could probably be a Vray RT window in the beta.

One advantage of Vray RT over anything else though is its raw capability in Linux flavor.

While lookdeving Tron Legacy I had the rectifier loaded up. It has 9 sections that each have six 8k EXRs for layered textures. Each are unique. That is 54 8K textures it was able to cache somehow. Though its response refresh time (after a camera move or light move or shader tweak) was like 5-10 seconds before it would start cleaning up the image at a normal rate I was amazed it did it at all.

Still, I remember how many of us were asking Newtek to make F-Prime native so it could render all of LW's shaders like 4+ years ago. I am always amazed how they try to appease the insatiable LW crowd with their efforts.

I could say that if I ever did another LW project again that it would be much more productive with LW10 even if I did animate in XSI or maya. ;)

LW10 and Core is a hard deal to beat and offers a $#!t ton of awesomeness. I've seen some work by my buddies at EdenFX that was done with it recently and the renders look great. Kudos to NT for incorporating the linear workflow native to LW. Was one of the main reasons I went off to play with the other render engines. Its really great to see LW get the benefits of this now. Even though you could kind of hack it together before this new method is up to industry standards. :newtek::thumbsup:

erikals
01-09-2011, 11:28 AM
Well, no one really uses maya's IPR the same way one would use F-Prime or Vpr.

BUT>>>> huge but... people in a certain beta do use Maya with Vray RT and this is like using F-Prime or VPR for sure only its better because.... DRUM ROLL... its F&*(ing Vray and its IN MAYA.

Sorry. Just had to check in from the Church of Maya. ;D

I just noticed LW10 is out. Pretty neat stuff in there for LW users for sure.

...but it ain't for free, doesn't Vray for Maya cost like $1000...? http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/oye.gif

 

erikals
01-09-2011, 11:29 AM
...getting a good render takes skills, that's for sure, and with some neat tricks you can cut rendertimes too... :]

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?9618-RANT-Why-aren-t-there-any-lighting-texture-artists-out-there&p=275006#post275006

 

MacDoggie
01-09-2011, 12:02 PM
I actually find modo 501 faster in most cases :) Especially if you make use of the Update Under Mouse feature to paint in the areas of highest interest. But regardless of that a good speed test is setting modo's preview to full quality and disabling draft mode in LightWave's VPR. Then preview/VPR render a car or some other subd model using brute force MC radiosity with 300 (or thereabouts) indirect rays/RPE.

modo preview is also quite powerful in its ability to preview selected "effects" or buffers as well as its more extensive configuration options.

modo also defaults to Use Multiple Threads which will use all available CPU threads -1. This will help scene interactivity in some cases at the expense of slightly slower previewing speed, all depending on the system configuration. There is, of course, the option to Use All Threads.

(I should add that VPR respects the threading options under Render Globals, so you can configure something similar there, just not as handily as from the viewport dropdown in modo)

This is just general info for those who might not be aware, not aimed at you specifically, John :)

Aww shucks my brother ... Never took it that way! :D Yes there are always the little settings that can change the whole performance picture. Why they are always obscure and generally unbeknown to most is beyond me... It is the same thing in Modoland

As I said I find both to be very effective and I use both. Personally, I feel I win on both accounts... Truth is I want both to succeed because they are both great packages in their own right. At this point in time I see Modo as a support package for Lightwave. Now that could change and that depends on the development of each package. As to whether I will ever model in LW again, well,that will be determined when the LW core Modeller manifests. I personally am hopeful because I do have a kindred feeling for LW Modeller... Can't help that. But I just can't model in LW anymore after working in a package like Modo. On the other hand I find animating in Modo to be really cumbersome. luxology's approach is not very straight forward and IMO really clunky. In thier zeal to be different and revolutionary i find IMO that they have in fact (from my perspective) made it overly complicated. That being said, when I get back to LW animating fells right as well as comfortable. My comments regarding Modo are a simple points of comparison, not a Modo is better ... thing. Each have their strong points each can contribute generously to each other. For us Modo and LW are a great combination and ANY improvements in performance can only benefit as far as we are concerned...:thumbsup:


Good chatting with you Nerveko

IMI
01-10-2011, 12:55 PM
Vray RT may be out in public beta for Softimage in 2011. Vlado mentioned that the render region could probably be a Vray RT window in the beta.



Now that would be cool. :D

I'm not knocking LW 10's VPR at all though, and you're right - many of us have been asking NT to put something like FPrime in there for a good while now. I myself have brought it up numerous times. ;)

So it's cool that they finally did, and better late than never.
My only complaint about LW 10 though is that from what I've read it doesn't seem to be much of an update overall. I guess though that if you factor in the promotional deals that go with it, it's a much better deal than LW 10 alone.
I still have yet to try it though, and don't have the time for it any time soon, so I'll reserve any further judgment til then. :)

hrgiger
01-10-2011, 05:22 PM
My only complaint about LW 10 though is that from what I've read it doesn't seem to be much of an update overall. I guess though that if you factor in the promotional deals that go with it, it's a much better deal than LW 10 alone.
I still have yet to try it though, and don't have the time for it any time soon, so I'll reserve any further judgment til then. :)

Actually all of us have yet to try it because LW10 won't actually be complete until the CORE component won't be released until sometime this year. So we can all reserve a little judgement.

IMI
01-10-2011, 07:13 PM
Actually all of us have yet to try it because LW10 won't actually be complete until the CORE component won't be released until sometime this year. So we can all reserve a little judgement.


Huh? How's that again? I thought I read it was "Lightwave 10 with Core technology".
Now it's getting even more confusing...
So LW 10 is basically just another pay-for beta? ;)

hrgiger
01-10-2011, 08:07 PM
Huh? How's that again? I thought I read it was "Lightwave 10 with Core technology".
Now it's getting even more confusing...
So LW 10 is basically just another pay-for beta? ;)

VPR originated in CORE and was later ported to Layout. So that's why its Lightwave 10 with CORE technology. CORE is still a seperate application (and eventually the successor to modeler and Layout but not for some time) which is still in beta and will be released sometime this year to all Lightwave 10 owners. Lightwave 10 is modeler + Layout + CORE.

IMI
01-10-2011, 08:15 PM
VPR originated in CORE and was later ported to Layout. So that's why its Lightwave 10 with CORE technology. CORE is still a seperate application (and eventually the successor to modeler and Layout but not for some time) which is still in beta and will be released sometime this year to all Lightwave 10 owners. Lightwave 10 is modeler + Layout + CORE.

Well I know that CORE is still a separate app, but it was just the way you said "...LW10 won't actually be complete..."

So I'm thinking, what's the point in buying an incomplete app? Hence my "pay-for beta" comment.
The way they market it on their LW 10 Features Page (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw10.php) certainly implies it's a complete app.

hrgiger
01-10-2011, 08:23 PM
Well I know that CORE is still a separate app, but it was just the way you said "...LW10 won't actually be complete..."

So I'm thinking, what's the point in buying an incomplete app? Hence my "pay-for beta" comment.
The way they market it on their LW 10 Features Page (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw10.php) certainly implies it's a complete app.

Lightwave is a complete app. You're getting a complete app + CORE.

3D Kiwi
01-10-2011, 09:15 PM
But wait theres more. Not only do you get Modeler, Layout with CORE technology and Core with CORE technology but for a limited time, and only if your are the 1,256,589 caller you also get a copy of Softimage with GigaCore technology. Because Licenceing with autodesk is so much easyer than understanding What the hell is going on with lightwave.:)

akademus
01-10-2011, 09:28 PM
It was easier for me to figure out what is going on with LW than constantly figuring out whats going on with xsi, maya AND max and it so much easier when you know in what year you actually are ;)

3D Kiwi
01-10-2011, 09:31 PM
It was easier for me to figure out what is going on with LW than constantly figuring out whats going on with xsi, maya AND max and it so much easier when you know in what year you actually are ;)

Yes but you are a very strange person, where I am perfectly normal
well thats what my mum keeps telling me.

How you going mate.

IMI
01-10-2011, 10:15 PM
Lightwave is a complete app. You're getting a complete app + CORE.


Okay...
So then why did you write a few posts above:
"Actually all of us have yet to try it because LW10 won't actually be complete until the CORE component won't be released until sometime this year."

Not trying to give you a hard time Steve, but I think you should be able to see where my confusion came from. ;)

@ 3DKiwi:
LOL!
I haven't understood exactly what's going on with LW ever since CORE was originally announced. If you remember that massive first CORE thread, it began in confusion and ended in confusion.
Confusion has been the very essence of the entire direction of LW ever since.
They ought to call it COREfusion, maybe. Well, maybe not. ;)

I'm still not understanding though why FiberFX was never fixed before LW 10 was even released. Does it work any better in LW 10?

IMI
01-10-2011, 10:31 PM
Well... not really. By that I mean not really for many who were/are in hardcore. (That doesn't quite sound right....:D) Some of us have actually followed what was going on. I certainly did. But I can see it's VERY easy to become confused "outside" in the "real world." When Jay left and Rob took over, the vision changed and it wasn't easy to see this right when it happened. And of course if you were on the "outside" there was NO WAY you could really know anything. You figure if people were confused IN hardcore, then how could anyone outside of it know anything for fact?



Yeah, that sums it up pretty well.
I did more or less have a pretty good grasp of what was going on with CORE - the whole idea and so on, but having ignored it for so long then suddenly come back to read that LW 10 was released, it's like everything changed and now it's all fuzzy again.
Well, CORE was never difficult to understand in concept actually. You have CORE and you have HardCore, the beta program for CORE. Of course, the confusion was in the delays and the details of the app, not the substance of the plan.
But I'd imagine a whole lot of people who decided to just wait and see what was going to happen and didn't keep up with it all regularly may very well get the same impression - WTH is going on now?
For an outsider, CORE and LW 10 and how they relate and what's what could be seriously confusing.

3D Kiwi
01-10-2011, 10:34 PM
So i just want to see if i have this right im trying to explain it to a mate of mine.

9.6 was released and then the count down began
Core reveal was reveled to the world
Core was to replace Lightwave with maybe a 9.6.1 update
The change of guard at Newtek then decided to release Lightwave 10 and Core
Core was late so we got LW10 and Core will come next year but free to owners of LW10

Am i close???

BlueApple
01-10-2011, 10:36 PM
I'm still not understanding though why FiberFX was never fixed before LW 10 was even released. Does it work any better in LW 10?

I see no improvements to FiberFX in LW10, and don't believe that NT claimed they'd be improving it for this release. I just loaded a 24 poly subpatched object into Layout 10, applied FiberFX, turned on "Draw", and then attempted to change the color mode to "Textured" and Layout crashed.

Regarding FiberFX, you can probably expect the same reliability and results you saw in 9.6.

BlueApple
01-10-2011, 10:38 PM
Core was late so we got LW10 and Core will come next year but free to owners of LW10

Am i close???

The free part is certainly not right. When you buy LW10 you are most certainly paying for Core, in addition to the other elements of LW10. Nothing is free, friend.

3D Kiwi
01-10-2011, 10:40 PM
The free part is certainly not right. When you buy LW10 you are most certainly paying for Core, in addition to the other elements of LW10. Nothing is free, friend.

I get that i ment free as you dont have to pay again for core.

IMI
01-10-2011, 10:49 PM
I see no improvements to FiberFX in LW10, and don't believe that NT claimed they'd be improving it for this release. I just loaded a 24 poly subpatched object into Layout 10, applied FiberFX, turned on "Draw", and then attempted to change the color mode to "Textured" and Layout crashed.

Regarding FiberFX, you can probably expect the same reliability and results you saw in 9.6.

I don't remember ever reading Newtek saying anything at all about improving FiiberFX. There were a few times I got the impression they would just like to forget about that tragedy. ;)
They don't even mention FiberFX on the LW 10 new features page, which I guess is obvious being that it's not new, but finding *anything* about FiberFX in LW 10 is difficult. Doing a brief search I didn't come up with anything, actually, aside from a few pictures implying that LW 10 has hair and fur.

Thanks for the info though. Aside from FFX, LW 9.6 is still a pretty good package. :D

hrgiger
01-10-2011, 11:47 PM
Okay...
So then why did you write a few posts above:
"Actually all of us have yet to try it because LW10 won't actually be complete until the CORE component won't be released until sometime this year."

Not trying to give you a hard time Steve, but I think you should be able to see where my confusion came from. ;)



You're talking about 2 entirely different things. You're stating that I am saying that Lightwave is not complete because CORE has not been released yet. When I am merely saying that Lightwave 10 is not only the improvements to what has been done with Layout and the few minor changes to modeler, but also what CORE brings with it once it is finally released. Lightwave 10 is incomplete as a release but Lightwave is complete as an application. 2 seperate ideas.

And I don't get all the confusion, it's pretty simple. You buy Lightwave 10 then you are getting modeler, Layout and CORE. Modeler and Layout have just been released and CORE will be released later(and no @Kiwi, you don't have to pay seperately for CORE, it is all a part of the LW10 release). Modeler and Layout will continue to be supported/developed at least until CORE can replace both in functionality. Which won't be for quite a while. I won't even speculate as to how long it will take, though I imagine that one would be naive to think that it would be within the next few years.

Dexter2999
01-11-2011, 12:36 AM
Modeler and Layout will continue to be supported/developed at least until CORE can replace both in functionality.

I think there may be a slight issue with that statement. While they may continue to develope Layout, I don't know that there is any real intention to do any major work on Modeler. I haven't seen any statements to that end. Perhaps they will. Perhaps not. It really isn't for me to say.

I personally hope any modeling improvement is introduced in CORE.

hrgiger
01-11-2011, 12:48 AM
I think there may be a slight issue with that statement. While they may continue to develope Layout, I don't know that there is any real intention to do any major work on Modeler. I haven't seen any statements to that end. Perhaps they will. Perhaps not. It really isn't for me to say.

I personally hope any modeling improvement is introduced in CORE.

that's why I put both supported and/or developed. Modeler may not be receiving new modeling tools per se, but it did in this new version receive the UI changes, data interchange tools as well (I thought) space navigator support so it's not completely shelved. Bug fixes would also fall under support. But I do think any real development effort in modeling will be in CORE. As it should be.

IMI
01-11-2011, 12:54 AM
You're talking about 2 entirely different things. You're stating that I am saying that Lightwave is not complete because CORE has not been released yet. When I am merely saying that Lightwave 10 is not only the improvements to what has been done with Layout and the few minor changes to modeler, but also what CORE brings with it once it is finally released. Lightwave 10 is incomplete as a release but Lightwave is complete as an application. 2 seperate ideas.


I'm not saying that you said *anything*, man, aside from having quoted what you wrote. I didn't even start this thing about LW 10 being complete or not. I was just trying to figure out what you meant by "Actually all of us have yet to try it because LW10 won't actually be complete until the CORE component..."



And I don't get all the confusion, it's pretty simple. You buy Lightwave 10 then you are getting modeler, Layout and CORE. Modeler and Layout have just been released and CORE will be released later


Well you don't get the confusion, no. You have half a million posts here and are in HardCore and have followed LW religiously since the dawn of time. ;)
This is like what Megalodon said about it all being pretty straightforward for those involved. As I wrote earlier, to someone like me, it's not quite so straightforward after ignoring LW development for nearly a year and suddenly learning of a new LW 10.

The last time I paid close attention to what was going on in LW Land, there was *no* intention of there being a LW 10, no plan for legacy LW to be continued with development *aside* from CORE, and CORE was going to be the next version of LW. Chuck and Jay did however, on several occasions allude to some mysterious "companion" LW that CORE would need, but that was never called LW 10. And I think it was also clearly stated that there would be no LW 10 - at least not a version similar to LW 9, like LW 10 is.
Obviously that plan changed along the way, but like I said, for someone not following it, it's kind of a surprise to suddenly learn of all the changes in plans and structure that happened in 2010, and the sudden unexpected appearance of LW 10.

EDIT:
I'm not faulting them for changing the LW game plan, or restructuring the company, BTW. You gotta do what you gotta do and all that.
Actually, I'm not faulting them for anything. I would have liked to have seen a FiberFX fix and/or LW 9.6.1 before any new versions though.

akademus
01-11-2011, 03:03 AM
Yes but you are a very strange person, where I am perfectly normal
well thats what my mum keeps telling me.

How you going mate.

Good man, doing well... you?

Well, some of my normals were flipped once but I sorted that out using the awesome align command from Modeler (and some pills too ;) )

Cheers!

hrgiger
01-11-2011, 06:16 AM
I'm not saying that you said *anything*, man, aside from having quoted what you wrote. I didn't even start this thing about LW 10 being complete or not. I was just trying to figure out what you meant by "Actually all of us have yet to try it because LW10 won't actually be complete until the CORE component..."



I was merely responding to your post when you said that "My only complaint about LW 10 though is that from what I've read it doesn't seem to be much of an update overall." by saying that more is yet coming out of LW10 via the CORE module. How useful that will end up being when its released is anyones guess, but provided the bullet physics, new modeling tools and new UV tools and whatever else are included are useful, LW10 may seem like a much more substantiative update to many.

MacDoggie
01-11-2011, 08:06 AM
You're talking about 2 entirely different things. You're stating that I am saying that Lightwave is not complete because CORE has not been released yet. When I am merely saying that Lightwave 10 is not only the improvements to what has been done with Layout and the few minor changes to modeler, but also what CORE brings with it once it is finally released. Lightwave 10 is incomplete as a release but Lightwave is complete as an application. 2 seperate ideas.

And I don't get all the confusion, it's pretty simple. You buy Lightwave 10 then you are getting modeler, Layout and CORE. Modeler and Layout have just been released and CORE will be released later(and no @Kiwi, you don't have to pay seperately for CORE, it is all a part of the LW10 release). Modeler and Layout will continue to be supported/developed at least until CORE can replace both in functionality. Which won't be for quite a while. I won't even speculate as to how long it will take, though I imagine that one would be naive to think that it would be within the next few years.

That is pretty much my impression as well but regardless this is very confusing especially to those who are considering LW as a new app. Things pretty much HAVE to develop in this manner not much choice. We are just going to have to be patient and I believe in time we will have a quality a quality modern 3D application. But I certainly hope a lesson has been learned here though. Personally, I am committed and am here for the duration but I can't help but recognized this self inflicted confusion based on poor planning or overzealous predictions...

I expected more but nevertheless, what we have received is useful so I can wait till the real deal arrives. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

IMI
01-11-2011, 09:49 AM
I was merely responding to your post when you said that "My only complaint about LW 10 though is that from what I've read it doesn't seem to be much of an update overall." by saying that more is yet coming out of LW10 via the CORE module. How useful that will end up being when its released is anyones guess, but provided the bullet physics, new modeling tools and new UV tools and whatever else are included are useful, LW10 may seem like a much more substantiative update to many.

Okay, I get you now, but the very next sentence I had written next after the one you quoted here was "I guess though that if you factor in the promotional deals that go with it, it's a much better deal than LW 10 alone."
Maybe it wasn't so obvious with the way I worded it, but that meant the updates that go along with a LW 10 purchase.

The bullet physics seems to be limited to rigid body dynamics.. By now I'd venture to say most current LW users have gotten into the practice of using other apps or plugins for UV layouts. I don't see anything there about improvements in Modeler aside from FBX, Collada, and the UV tools.
Just sayin' and all. ;)

Not that it's not a good deal for people looking for a good 3D package, but it's not so far advanced above LW 9.6 that it makes any real sense to upgrade, especially considering most of us have learned how to bypass all of LW's shortcomings through using other apps and plugins by now.

I can't help myself but to comment about one thing though - I think "3D Just Got Better" is a bit over the top. Unless they were talking about Softimage 2011 Subscription Advantage Pack with the ICE improvements and Lagoa, or Vray in Maya. ;)

Anyway, I'm going to get away from using the word "incomplete" here, but the more I read over the LW 10 product page, the more it seems like "HardCore Repackaged" to me...
- Buy now, get such and such...soon...later...eventually.

hrgiger
01-11-2011, 10:23 AM
The bullet physics seems to be limited to rigid body dynamics.. By now I'd venture to say most current LW users have gotten into the practice of using other apps or plugins for UV layouts. I don't see anything there about improvements in Modeler aside from FBX, Collada, and the UV tools.
Just sayin' and all. ;)



Bullet is capable of rigid bodies, soft bodies and there have been examples of fluids done with bullet. But rigid is the only thing implemented so far in CORE. The original features list for CORE mentioned soft body dynamics but I dont know if they'll still get it in for the first version. There aren't any improvements to modelers tools, I was referring to the new modeling tools that will be in CORE.

geo_n
01-11-2011, 10:51 AM
I'm so glad I got lw 10. The pointcache tools and vpr and linear workflow is helping my workflow I'm not even thinking about core right now. The tests I'm doing with turbulance 4D is making me think that its now possible to do fluid effects without the need for 3dmax and fumefx, awesome combo btw.
Well lw 10 plus t4d could change all that.
Wish I got in sooner with 395. That would have been a steal, lw 10 with core 1.0.
Looking forward to core and some more bug fixes to lw 10. Especially more bug fixes to vpr, fiberfx.

frantbk
01-11-2011, 11:55 AM
The $1495.00 is for Core+Modeler+Layout, not just Core. Basically, Core will cost $600 ($1495-$895). It may seem overpriced, but we're used to low prices and no maintenance fees. The question is what else is on the market that gives you the A to W feature set (I'd say A to Z, but we're missing fluid sims, decent painting on meshes/sculpting, and a few other key features of modern apps).

Which means you are paying $600 for Core and $895.00 for Layout. What will be the point of Lightwave 10's modeler if it is bundle with Core? Core is suppose to be a unified work environment of layout & Modeler. Therefore, what is the point of two specific systems being bundle together?

Core is suppose to be the missing fluid simulation, decent painting on meshes/sculpting and some other modern apps? Everything you've just described is modo 201. If you are not buying Lightwave 10 now, why would you buy it later? The original Core is suppose to be a complete program - the unified version of lightwave 9.x. Anything less then that at release will have a backlash effect against this product line.

hrgiger
01-11-2011, 12:19 PM
Which means you are paying $600 for Core and $895.00 for Layout. What will be the point of Lightwave 10's modeler if it is bundle with Core? Core is suppose to be a unified work environment of layout & Modeler. Therefore, what is the point of two specific systems being bundle together?

Core is suppose to be the missing fluid simulation, decent painting on meshes/sculpting and some other modern apps? Everything you've just described is modo 201. If you are not buying Lightwave 10 now, why would you buy it later? The original Core is suppose to be a complete program - the unified version of lightwave 9.x. Anything less then that at release will have a backlash effect against this product line.

I can see now how people get confused. Everything you said here is false and not based on anything that anyone at Newtek has said.

There is not a break down in price for any of the components of LW10. There is no buying them seperately. You buy LW10, you get all 3 programs. Lightwave 9 costed new buyers $895, the price for LW10 has been raised and after the introductory price is over, it will cost new buyers $1495.

CORE is not a unification of modeler and Layout. CORE is a completely new architecture which is unified in its own right meaning it will contain modeling, animation, and rendering all of it's own.

The point of CORE being bundled with modeler and Layout is because CORE is relatively young and will not be able to replace the functionality of modeler and Layout both for quite some time. If you think that Newtek has a full featured 3D application ready to go after only 4-5 years of design and development, you're overly optimistic. Look at where Modo is after almost 10 years now and the latest release which just came out last month is still not capapble of deforming characters, particle work or dynamic simulation.

CORE may one day do fluid sim or painting or sculpting but other then a simple deform brush which acts like a standard sculpt brush, CORE will not have any of those features upon initial release.

JBT27
01-12-2011, 03:49 AM
But on the subject of a multiple tool workflow, as far as sculpting and painting go, 3DC is a prime contender to go with LW. Works for me anyway.

In Modo 501, has that normal action centre been fixed yet? That nagged the hell out of me :D

Julian.

jwiede
01-12-2011, 06:43 AM
I don't remember ever reading Newtek saying anything at all about improving FiiberFX. There were a few times I got the impression they would just like to forget about that tragedy. ;)
They don't even mention FiberFX on the LW 10 new features page, which I guess is obvious being that it's not new, but finding *anything* about FiberFX in LW 10 is difficult. Doing a brief search I didn't come up with anything, actually, aside from a few pictures implying that LW 10 has hair and fur.

Thanks for the info though. Aside from FFX, LW 9.6 is still a pretty good package. :D
But, to be fair, it does raise an issue about just how many of those "A to W" features cited as offfered by LW are: Functional at a similar level to competitors Produce results at a similar level of quality as competitors Stable and reliable enough to be used in production

Arguing that competitors' offerings have to be 100% equivalent to VPR, while looking the other way when many of LW's features fall far short (FFX, caustics, LW10's dynamics, CC subd surfaces, LW10's UV tools, to name a few) is disingenuous at the least. If you only count as LW10 features those which meet the above criteria, the picture changes quite a bit, IMO. This declaring even minor issues with competitors as "useless" while turning a blind eye to serious flaws in LW helps nobody.

If folks really want to attempt an honest assessment of LW's features versus the competition, such issues must be taken into account. Sticking checkmarks in LW's column for hair, or caustics, while arguing nobody else offers useful IPR is just self-deception. Potential customers who notice such feature issues start questioning what other features are similarly "overstated". Customers who discover them after purchase have even less favorable reactions.

I'm not suggesting LW is a "bad" package, far from it. I'm simply suggesting that some in this thread are direly "over-selling" LW's features versus competitors, and need to recognize that doing so harms, not helps LW's market situation. Trying to position LW as competing feature-for-feature with other full-featured packages at a much lower price sets customers' expectations unrealistically high, leading to customer satisfaction problems down the road.

(edit) Just to clarify, IMI, I'm not directing this at you (quite the opposite). It was some others' responses to points you raised that concerned me, and your comments about FFX were simply a good segue.

jwiede
01-12-2011, 07:23 AM
The point of CORE being bundled with modeler and Layout is because CORE is relatively young and will not be able to replace the functionality of modeler and Layout both for quite some time. If you think that Newtek has a full featured 3D application ready to go after only 4-5 years of design and development, you're overly optimistic. Look at where Modo is after almost 10 years now and the latest release which just came out last month is still not capapble of deforming characters, particle work or dynamic simulation.
I think this is a little unfair to compare CORE and Modo in that way. Luxology never claimed Modo offered CA deformation or particle sims. Luxology have been quite clear about what customers can reasonably expect from Modo, and pretty reliable about meeting those expectations.

Much of the customer confusion about CORE stems from Newtek's own statements about what CORE's capabilities will be at release. Arguing that customers who believe those claims are being overly optimistic is pointing fingers in the wrong direction. Newtek never claimed CORE would offer fluid sims, that's absolutely correct. However, in terms of unified full-featured environments offering both Modeler and Layout functionality, those claims have been made from CORE's introduction, by Newtek themselves.

Until Newtek provide further guidance about what CORE will offer at release, it is reasonable (expected, even) for customers to set expectations from Newtek's past statements about CORE. If customers' expectations need to be reset, it is Newtek's responsibility to provide the guidance for doing so.

hrgiger
01-12-2011, 07:58 AM
I think this is a little unfair to compare CORE and Modo in that way. Luxology never claimed Modo offered CA deformation or particle sims. Luxology have been quite clear about what customers can reasonably expect from Modo, and pretty reliable about meeting those expectations.

No, Luxology have been prudent with any information regarding future features or functionality. But do you agree that they are moving Modo towards a full featured solution and that they've always had intention to do so? So it is relevant to say that after almost 10 years, they are still not there yet.


Much of the customer confusion about CORE stems from Newtek's own statements about what CORE's capabilities will be at release. Arguing that customers who believe those claims are being overly optimistic is pointing fingers in the wrong direction. Newtek never claimed CORE would offer fluid sims, that's absolutely correct. However, in terms of unified full-featured environments offering both Modeler and Layout functionality, those claims have been made from CORE's introduction, by Newtek themselves.


Well first of all, don't think I am defending Newtek because the CORE reveal was a disaster and Jim Plant was right to come out and apologize for the way it was handled. But again, other then the few features they showed in the reveal video(modeling, scripting, instancing, modifier stack), they never stated that CORE would offer modeler and Layout functionality by the first release. My issue is with people who are making assumptions about what was NOT said and not about people believing what Newtek DID say. They said CORE was unified. Is it not unified? Modeling, simulation, animation, rendering all under one roof? Unified does not imply complete in any way. It just implies that by design, all functions operate within a single environment. CORE is not yet complete and therefore, people will need to continue to use modeler and Layout for the time being. Newtek did not tell us that, but then they didn't tell us we wouldn't have to either. Bottom line on that point is that Newtek offered refunds to anyone who did not like the way things were going in hardcore. I think it's well been established by this time in hardcore what the actual state of CORE is at this point for people to correct their initial assumptions about how useful CORE would be upon release based upon what Newtek said in the reveal.

MacDoggie
01-12-2011, 08:06 AM
But, to be fair, it does raise an issue about just how many of those "A to W" features cited as offfered by LW are: Functional at a similar level to competitors Produce results at a similar level of quality as competitors Stable and reliable enough to be used in production

Arguing that competitors' offerings have to be 100% equivalent to VPR, while looking the other way when many of LW's features fall far short (FFX, caustics, LW10's dynamics, CC subd surfaces, LW10's UV tools, to name a few) is disingenuous at the least. If you only count as LW10 features those which meet the above criteria, the picture changes quite a bit, IMO. This declaring even minor issues with competitors as "useless" while turning a blind eye to serious flaws in LW helps nobody.

If folks really want to attempt an honest assessment of LW's features versus the competition, such issues must be taken into account. Sticking checkmarks in LW's column for hair, or caustics, while arguing nobody else offers useful IPR is just self-deception. Potential customers who notice such feature issues start questioning what other features are similarly "overstated". Customers who discover them after purchase have even less favorable reactions.

I'm not suggesting LW is a "bad" package, far from it. I'm simply suggesting that some in this thread are direly "over-selling" LW's features versus competitors, and need to recognize that doing so harms, not helps LW's market situation. Trying to position LW as competing feature-for-feature with other full-featured packages at a much lower price sets customers' expectations unrealistically high, leading to customer satisfaction problems down the road.

(edit) Just to clarify, IMI, I'm not directing this at you (quite the opposite). It was some others' responses to points you raised that concerned me, and your comments about FFX were simply a good segue.

So true, Nevertheless, LW is still in development. hrgiger summed it up rather nicely as far as the confusion goes here and based on the way the wording is set up. The wording at least offers up some of the shortcomings. Others wont cite the shortcomings at all. and claim a total solution in their "market speak" literature. I can just see the squirming when this was written :devil:. I can understand why some would get confused. What you are receiving is the early build of core bundled with LW 10 with some core technology and some still unresolved issues. it is not going to happen overnight mateys. Those of you who feel slighted better get ready for the wait or ask for your dosch back. Those of you who are stating that there is nothing there for you to upgrade for ... fair enough. I can live with all of this and NT well, like it or not are just going to have to as well.

Generally ALL 3d apps out there are using supplemental apps. Bad??? Perhaps but that is just the way it is. I am not concerned by the lack of development in the Modeller as most likely that will manifest with the advent of LW core. Till then, we make do. Those of us who insist/want to stay in LW modeller can be supplemented by a wealth of fine modelling plugs (thank the Gods) and with the increase of efficiency in managing high polys (a nice addition to the upgrade), makes for a reasonable solution till the new modeller arrives. The other solution of course is go outside of LW to find a total modelling solution til then.

Those who need painting tools generally do what most others are doing buying third party paint tools to do painting or sculpting if that is a serious endeavor. Most packages that contain built in paint tools are lacking. I can cite Modo while having a suitable painting capability for basic painting it starts to fall apart when the image resolution rises, it does not have multi layered painting capabilities, and tends to be rather sluggish when the complexity rises. But for basic painting it is nice to have, but it is far from being the total paint solution. I can also comment on the sculpting capabilities... pretty much the same although the new multires sculpting capabilities (while no ZBrush) does show great promise... 3DCoat has been cited and it is an excellent program for painting. Z brush and Mudbox for sculpting. Especially Z brush for those of you who don't have monster machines to rely on.

In a perfect world we would or should be doing EVERYTHING in our chosen 3D application but... We are not living in a perfect world...Are we??? :D

MacDoggie
01-12-2011, 08:21 AM
No, Luxology have been prudent with any information regarding future features or functionality. But do you agree that they are moving Modo towards a full featured solution and that they've always had intention to do so? So it is relevant to say that after almost 10 years, they are still not there yet.

Great point! Luxology has been bitten by over Zealousness in earlier marketing campaigns and to their credit, have learned. They are indeed as you cited, definitely more guarded in their predictions. Fact is, you don't just build a Major full featured 3D application overnight. It does in fact take years. The sooner we all accept that, The easier it will be on all of us... That is also a quite sore spot with most Modonauts. Especially those wanting CA.:hey:


Well first of all, don't think I am defending Newtek because the CORE reveal was a disaster and Jim Plant was right to come out and apologize for the way it was handled. But again, other then the few features they showed in the reveal video(modeling, scripting, instancing, modifier stack), they never stated that CORE would offer modeler and Layout functionality by the first release. My issue is with people who are making assumptions about what was NOT said and not about people believing what Newtek DID say. They said CORE was unified. Is it not unified? Modeling, simulation, animation, rendering all under one roof? Unified does not imply complete in any way. It just implies that by design, all functions operate within a single environment. CORE is not yet complete and therefore, people will need to continue to use modeler and Layout for the time being. Newtek did not tell us that, but then they didn't tell us we wouldn't have to either. Bottom line on that point is that Newtek offered refunds to anyone who did not like the way things were going in hardcore. I think it's well been established by this time in hardcore what the actual state of CORE is at this point for people to correct their initial assumptions about how useful CORE would be upon release based upon what Newtek said in the reveal.


Yeah my take as well. The Roll out was premature and a bit heavy handed in it's implementation. I respect Jim a lot for having the courage to come out and admit that. It's not about making mistakes, it's about learning from them. That being the case, this is what NT has to work with. You either go long for the ride or go somewhere else, or revisit at a later time when it makes sense to you. I am certain NT is aware of the some Market loss that will invariably occur, under the circumstances it should be a given...

Cheers

MacDoggie
01-12-2011, 11:49 AM
I think this is a little unfair to compare CORE and Modo in that way. Luxology never claimed Modo offered CA deformation or particle sims. Luxology have been quite clear about what customers can reasonably expect from Modo, and pretty reliable about meeting those expectations.


Uhmmm I am not so sure about that... Luxology did say that there would be Ca in an early release... It didn't happen. After that Luxology started getting very clear and somewhat reluctant about what is to come in the next release and now don't say anything till they actually have something in hand. Which is wise and saves a lot of misunderstanding and confusion. The thing I admire about Luxology is they seem to learn from their mistakes... CA??? From what I gathered from Luxology.... CA will happen when Luxology is ready to release it and not a minute more and while there is a bit if grumbling at release time it is accepted and people get on with them selves... A good lesson I'd say :thumbsup:

Cheers

IMI
01-12-2011, 03:24 PM
But, to be fair, it does raise an issue about just how many of those "A to W" features cited as offfered by LW are: Functional at a similar level to competitors Produce results at a similar level of quality as competitors Stable and reliable enough to be used in production

[snipped for brevity, but I agree with all you wrote. I wish I had thought to write that. :D]
What you wrote is all very true. Sure, great VPR, but overall the fact remains that in far too many areas LW is way behind the times.

Yes, I know, I know, Core, Core, Core... Core will be this, Core will be that, Core will set the world afire, take no prisoners, command innumerable throngs of worshipers and overall reinvent 3D for all time... ;)





(edit) Just to clarify, IMI, I'm not directing this at you (quite the opposite). It was some others' responses to points you raised that concerned me, and your comments about FFX were simply a good segue.

No I didn't think you were directing it AT me, but I appreciate that you clarified that. :)

dwburman
01-12-2011, 07:46 PM
haha, I don't think I've ever been quoted so much. :)

Yes, Lightwave has a lot of catching up to do which is the whole point of Core. Heck, most of the proposed features of Core are already available in competitor's packages. I was mainly responding to the previous post:


... $1495.00 isn't realistic for Lightwave Core if it is mostly Silo 2.2, Modo 101. NewTek will have to have something close to modo 501/601 to justify $1495.00 ...

Since the $1495 price includes Layout and Modeler Newtek will have something close to Modo 501. That's not to say that Lightwave isn't behind in some areas, but it still does things that Modo can't.

Since the theoretical price of Core is $600 (New Price - Old Price) it's better to make the Modo 101 comparison at the $600 price point rather than the $1495 price point.

Even with the price increase LW has a lot of bang for the buck though not as much as it has right now. If you buy some big plug-ins for it, the gap starts to get pretty thin, but it's still feasible, especially if you don't like Autodesk.

FWIW, According to release notes, there were several fixes and adjustments made to FFX. I'm not saying it's more usable than it was in 9.6, but it did receive some attention.

geo_n
01-12-2011, 09:50 PM
1495US is not so bad for lightwave 10 and core 1.0.
I was considering to get modo 401 before and actually like the renderer and the modelling. But it felt redundant to get another modeller and the renderer, although really good, is best for stills, spinning logos. Plus that shadertree, which I will never like, is different but not better than other packages feature.
There's nothing that an experienced modeller or I can't model in modeller or 3dmax. Polys are polys. Sculpting is a different case.
If one was a modeller, product viz, spinning logos, still renders only modo would be a good package. But then again a cheap modeller plus zbrush,3dcoat, plus octane renderer offers really good value.
For generalists its not possible to have only modo without maya, 3dmax. xsi even lightwave.
Two software, two different targets. Modellers and generalists.
Maybe modo, will catch up someday, then I will switch...... if they beat 3dmax,xsi, maya.

MacDoggie
01-14-2011, 08:16 AM
1495US is not so bad for lightwave 10 and core 1.0.
I was considering to get modo 401 before and actually like the renderer and the modelling. But it felt redundant to get another modeller and the renderer, although really good, is best for stills, spinning logos. Plus that shadertree, which I will never like, is different but not better than other packages feature.
There's nothing that an experienced modeller or I can't model in modeller or 3dmax. Polys are polys. Sculpting is a different case.
If one was a modeller, product viz, spinning logos, still renders only modo would be a good package. But then again a cheap modeller plus zbrush,3dcoat, plus octane renderer offers really good value.
For generalists its not possible to have only modo without maya, 3dmax. xsi even lightwave.
Two software, two different targets. Modellers and generalists.
Maybe modo, will catch up someday, then I will switch...... if they beat 3dmax,xsi, maya.

Modo and LW complement each other very well and since LW is lacking in some respects Modo is a great stop gap. It shouldn't be this either and or thing. As mentioned Modo is a great renderer and a kick *** modeller as well as UVtool. It is also great for the rendering of stills especially where a lot of instancing is needed. That being said, we are using it more and more these days because of not only the speed but the quality of modo rendering engine. As said previously, Modo is not without it's issues but then again what software isn't??

The shader tree... As a LW user, I find it very clunky especially when working with complex scenes. It is just not made for that. Yet, since I have gotten used to it I can now effectively use it despite the fact that I don't really care for it. Having breached the familiarity stage also brings about a certain appreciation for it as well. In some respects once you understand the shader tree, you can see the brilliance of it which it does indeed possess. It's main weakness IMO is scalability... Your assessment is a fair one, "different but not better" In modo-land there are a lot of people lobbying for a hybrid system like the one found in LW. Which IMO would truly be a fair and efficient solution that wouldn't disrupt the shader tree "purist". Such a thing would be nice but at this time if you want to do anything noteworthy in Modo... You have to come to grips with the shader tree.

As you pointed out, Modo is definitely not a stand alone application at this point in time. It has rudimentary animation capabilities at best. but when combined with LW the two complement each other very well and help each other in their areas of deficiency especially with the new enhancements in Modo 501. In reagrds to LW 10 core, the new added features capabilities as well as enhancement brought about by core technology make LW even better for us. It would have been nice to have a larger offering but what has been released is very nice and useful as far as we are concerned...:thumbsup:

MacDoggie
01-14-2011, 08:31 AM
Yes, I know, I know, Core, Core, Core... Core will be this, Core will be that, Core will set the world afire, take no prisoners, command innumerable throngs of worshipers and overall reinvent 3D for all time... ;)


LOL! Yeah all of the "jingosim" is starting to wane as the realization that this NOT going to happen overnight and that we are indeed going to have to prepare for a loooong winter campaign or two... or three... etc etc. nevertheless LW is still very effective combined with third party plugs and supplemental apps (insert app of your choice here). We make do with what is in hand till that great day arrives...:D:lightwave:D

IMI
01-14-2011, 09:09 AM
LOL! Yeah all of the "jingosim" is starting to wane as the realization that this NOT going to happen overnight and that we are indeed going to have to prepare for a loooong winter campaign or two... or three... etc etc. nevertheless LW is still very effective combined with third party plugs and supplemental apps (insert app of your choice here). We make do with what is in hand till that great day arrives...:D:lightwave:D

Oh well yeah, I certainly do agree with you. I love LW 9.6.
I don't use it anywhere as near as much as I used to since I've been pretty deeply entrenched in learning ICE in Softimage lately, but I do regularly use Modeler in conjunction with Softimage when modeling. Some things are much easier in Modeler, while other things are much easier in Softimage. Haven't used Layout much lately though.

I have no doubts Core will be an amazing program when it's done, but yeah, it's gonna be a while.

frantbk
01-14-2011, 10:45 AM
I can see now how people get confused. Everything you said here is false and not based on anything that anyone at Newtek has said.

Read the post of the person I was responding to. He broke down the pricing on Lightwave Core, not I. All I did was respond to his posting.


There is not a break down in price for any of the components of LW10. There is no buying them seperately. You buy LW10, you get all 3 programs. Lightwave 9 costed new buyers $895, the price for LW10 has been raised and after the introductory price is over, it will cost new buyers $1495.

Which does not make anything I've said as false. What I said was that, that package deal is crazy and not worth $1495.00. What good is lightwave 10's modeller if Lightwave Core is suppose to be a modeller. Subtract $600.00 for Core from $1495.00 and you are left with $895.00 for lightwave 10. So, if Core replaces lightwave 10's modeler then what is the point of lightwave 10's modeling program? Nothing because Core usurps it. Therefore, you are paying $895.00 for layout and $600.00 for Core. You do not have any use for lightwave 10's modeler if you have Core as a modeling program.


CORE is not a unification of modeler and Layout. CORE is a completely new architecture which is unified in its own right meaning it will contain modeling, animation, and rendering all of it's own.

What is Core? is it a modeler? a animation generator? a fluid dynamtics generator? If Core isn't a modeler/layout then what is Core? a mesh paint program? What NewTek has demoed to the general public is that of a modeling program.

If as you say Core is a modeling, animation, rendering program. Then it is the embodiment of Lightwave 10's modeler/layout into a unified workspace based on the customers expectations that Core will have some familiarity of the lightwave environment.


The point of CORE being bundled with modeler and Layout is because CORE is relatively young and will not be able to replace the functionality of modeler and Layout both for quite some time. If you think that Newtek has a full featured 3D application ready to go after only 4-5 years of design and development, you're overly optimistic. Look at where Modo is after almost 10 years now and the latest release which just came out last month is still not capapble of deforming characters, particle work or dynamic simulation.

CORE may one day do fluid sim or painting or sculpting but other then a simple deform brush which acts like a standard sculpt brush, CORE will not have any of those features upon initial release.

Three years after the project was announced and it will be released as a incomplete package akin to that of modo 101-201, maybe modo 401. This is not a good deal. If you don't want lightwave 10 bundling Core as an incomplete with a product the customer doesn't want and hasn't wanted for the last years isn't going to sale this product in the 4th quarter of 2011 to anyone not already an owner of lightwave.

The problem here is you can't see that. The future sales of Lightwave Core are all about Core, not lightwave 10 & Core. If you are a hardcore member your there, your money is already paid. You and the others need to start looking at this through the eye of those not there (as a hardcore member). This package deal does not give these people what they want. A single package that has all of the functionality of Lightwave 9/10 using the Core environment as a single work environment.

MacDoggie
01-14-2011, 10:51 AM
Oh well yeah, I certainly do agree with you. I love LW 9.6.
I don't use it anywhere as near as much as I used to since I've been pretty deeply entrenched in learning ICE in Softimage lately, but I do regularly use Modeler in conjunction with Softimage when modeling. Some things are much easier in Modeler, while other things are much easier in Softimage. Haven't used Layout much lately though.

Interesting isn't it?? For me, modeller was the reason I left LW for modelling. LW modeller is still a great modeller it i just that I have been spoiled by Modo that and I don't want to form any more dependencies on third party plugs than I have to. There are even as good if not better alternative modellers out there as well. The enhanced polygon capabilities should be a total reason for upgrading to 10 if you are still modelling in LW modeller. I still use modeller in LW to adjust or make changes if I am not inclined to go back to Modo. But this enhancement makes it easier to stay. I am very anxious to see just what NT offers modelling-wise when LW core finally gets here. Layout is where we do the lion's share of work in LW...:D


I have no doubts Core will be an amazing program when it's done, but yeah, it's gonna be a while.

That's the spirit...:thumbsup:

hrgiger
01-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Which does not make anything I've said as false. What I said was that, that package deal is crazy and not worth $1495.00. What good is lightwave 10's modeller if Lightwave Core is suppose to be a modeller. Subtract $600.00 for Core from $1495.00 and you are left with $895.00 for lightwave 10. So, if Core replaces lightwave 10's modeler then what is the point of lightwave 10's modeling program? Nothing because Core usurps it. Therefore, you are paying $895.00 for layout and $600.00 for Core. You do not have any use for lightwave 10's modeler if you have Core as a modeling program.

Who said that CORE would yet replace modeler? Most likely not for this version. CORE will do some things better then modeler in specific instances, but there's little chance that it will have the sheer number of tools that modeler has acquired over the years. So, most people will still need modeler for Lightwave 10 if they want the same level of functionality.




What is Core? is it a modeler? a animation generator? a fluid dynamtics generator? If Core isn't a modeler/layout then what is Core? a mesh paint program? What NewTek has demoed to the general public is that of a modeling program.

If as you say Core is a modeling, animation, rendering program. Then it is the embodiment of Lightwave 10's modeler/layout into a unified workspace based on the customers expectations that Core will have some familiarity of the lightwave environment.

Well first, I would say you should probably read the tech specs of CORE which describe the design intent behind it: http://newtek.com/lightwave/core/techfaq.php Yes, CORE is a unified environment where modeling, animation, rendering, compositing simulation, etc.. are all done within one program. But it is incorrect to say that it's a unification of modeler and layout. CORE is a completely new architecture and not just extenstions or consolidations of modeler and Layout. But yes, you are correct that Newtek will try to introduce some familiarity into CORE so that it's not too alien coming from Lightwave. But it won't be full featured for quite some time, probably a few versions down the road at the very least.



Three years after the project was announced and it will be released as a incomplete package akin to that of modo 101-201, maybe modo 401. This is not a good deal. If you don't want lightwave 10 bundling Core as an incomplete with a product the customer doesn't want and hasn't wanted for the last years isn't going to sale this product in the 4th quarter of 2011 to anyone not already an owner of lightwave.

The problem here is you can't see that. The future sales of Lightwave Core are all about Core, not lightwave 10 & Core. If you are a hardcore member your there, your money is already paid. You and the others need to start looking at this through the eye of those not there (as a hardcore member). This package deal does not give these people what they want. A single package that has all of the functionality of Lightwave 9/10 using the Core environment as a single work environment.

Whether you believe it is a good deal isn't really the issue (and I mean you as a consumer of Lightwave not you personally). Lightwave is in transition. CORE could not have possibly replaced modeler and Layout in such a short amount of time and so Newtek decided to develop both programs so that Lightwave could keep moving ahead until the transition is complete and the focus can then move to CORE.

A lot of us want to see a unified environment with all the functionality (and hopefully more) of modeler and Layout. But that's just not a feasible reality right now.

Lightwave 10 is a pretty good deal I think. And I'm not just talking about what you get with modeler and Layout. For one, CORE will bring more options once it's released with new modeling tools, new UV tools and Bullet physics.(Mind you that's future speak for when CORE is released and depends upon what Newtek does with the first version of CORE) But also that by upgrading, you also get a price guarantee on the next five upgrades as part of your hardcore membership.

calilifestyle
01-14-2011, 02:52 PM
wow hrgiger. just wow. that's all i can say.

hrgiger
01-14-2011, 03:02 PM
wow hrgiger. just wow. that's all i can say.

Not saying anything that hasn't been known/said for quite some time now.

frantbk
01-14-2011, 03:32 PM
Who said that CORE would yet replace modeler? Most likely not for this version. CORE will do some things better then modeler in specific instances, but there's little chance that it will have the sheer number of tools that modeler has acquired over the years. So, most people will still need modeler for Lightwave 10 if they want the same level of functionality.

You're joking, right? Three years after the announcment of Core and you think it can be sold at the level of Silo, or Hexagon. You guys are dreaming if you think that will fly.


Well first, I would say you should probably read the tech specs of CORE which describe the design intent behind it: http://newtek.com/lightwave/core/techfaq.php Yes, CORE is a unified environment where modeling, animation, rendering, compositing simulation, etc.. are all done within one program. But it is incorrect to say that it's a unification of modeler and layout. CORE is a completely new architecture and not just extenstions or consolidations of modeler anad Layout. But yes, you are correct that Newtek will try to introduce some familiarity into CORE so that it's not too alien coming from Lightwave. But it won't be full featured for quite some time, probably a few versions down the road at the very least.

The architecture is, and isn't relevant. Three years ago (by 4th Q of 2011) Core was and still is the next generation of Lightwave. The underlying code is only the engine that drives the system. Three years have passed and you are trying to tell me and every other non-lightwave owner that our expecations of Core are too high? I don't think so.

What I do see is a group of hardcore members that are in for a rude awakening when Core is released. Once again you are not seeing the product from any perspective other then that of a hardcore member. If Core is release at the level you say it is, and it requires Lightwave 10 to fill in the gaps. Then the product is pretty much dead. Nobody will buy Core (that hasn't already bought it) for $1495.00. It is not a deal buying Core and getting Lightwave 10 when the people don't want lightwave 10. They want Core, and only Core. They also expect Core to be a full application package, not some half-*** bundled cluserf**k of two different products with two different base codes.

frantbk
01-14-2011, 03:43 PM
Lightwave 10 is a pretty good deal I think. And I'm not just talking about what you get with modeler and Layout. For one, CORE will bring more options once it's released with new modeling tools, new UV tools and Bullet physics.(Mind you that's future speak for when CORE is released and depends upon what Newtek does with the first version of CORE) But also that by upgrading, you also get a price guarantee on the next five upgrades as part of your hardcore membership.

This whole paragraph is a hardcore membership pipedream. If you are not a owner of lightwave the bundle at $1495.00 is a joke. NewTek is already selling lightwave 10 at $895.00 and giving the person a copy of Core when it is released. Just because Core hasn't been release (which NewTek missed its release dates) that you and NewTek think people will jump at Core when it is released because it is the same bundle just at a higher price.

Stop and think about how stupid this is. Lightwave 10 and Core (whenever they release it) for $895.00. Core with Lightwave 10 for $1495.00. People paying attention to NewTek are not that stupid that they can't see that nothing is different, except the pricing. There is nothing to warrent the pricing of $1495.00. Add to that, that NewTek is 3 years behind on the release of Core (by the 4th Q of 2011) there is nothing to invest in at this pricing. That is the problem you and the other refuse to see. You are not giving the customer anything for the inflated price of Core/Lightwave 10. That is what will bite you guys in the *** when Core is released.

hrgiger
01-14-2011, 04:11 PM
This whole paragraph is a hardcore membership pipedream. If you are not a owner of lightwave the bundle at $1495.00 is a joke. NewTek is already selling lightwave 10 at $895.00 and giving the person a copy of Core when it is released. Just because Core hasn't been release (which NewTek missed its release dates) that you and NewTek think people will jump at Core when it is released because it is the same bundle just at a higher price.

Uh, why are you lumping me in with Newtek? I'm just trying to tell you the state of things and shed a little reality on the matter and you're getting all up in arms. The price increase to $1495 has nothing to do with me and I have no stake in its result on Lightwave sales. Currently the price of Lightwave which includes CORE, the hardcore membership and price guarantee of your next 5 upgrades is $895. I think it's a good deal for a current non-Lightwave user. If you don't, that's your opinion and you are free to move on to other things.

Cageman
01-14-2011, 04:51 PM
Stop and think about how stupid this is. Lightwave 10 and Core (whenever they release it) for $895.00. Core with Lightwave 10 for $1495.00. People paying attention to NewTek are not that stupid that they can't see that nothing is different, except the pricing. There is nothing to warrent the pricing of $1495.00.

First of all, LW10 IS released and the price for a full commercial seat is $895, and with that you also get 999 rendernodes with a very solid renderengine for most types of productions. Yes... CORE is not yet avaliable, but the pricetag for LW10 and what it actually offers for a production, is very, very small in comparsion to alot of other options out there.

When CORE v1.0 has been released, LW10 will go up to $1495, true, but again, look at the alternatives regarding lighting/shading and rendering (again, factor in that you do get 999 renderlics).

So, lets do a comparsion regarding what you get with LW10 regarding rendering:

Maya Software: (not even developed anymore)

MR for Maya: You get 8 or 10 renderlics / license of Maya. To add more nodes, you need to buy another seat of Maya which goes for around $3495 / lic (so, in essence you pay $3495 for another 8 or 10 renderlics). Try budget a renderfarm with those prices (and yes...LWs renderengine can in many cases reproduce what MR can, you just have to find the right talent!).

LW: We went from 24 nodes to 105 nodes overnight buy adding all workstations into the renderfarm during nighttime, and it didn't cost us a dime.. well, except electricity. Being able to scale up to 999 rendernodes without any sort of payment is a HUGE plus in my book. And, again, LWs renderengine can, in many situations, reproduce what MR can do, but at a much, much lower price.

MR standalone: I couldn't find the current price, but from October 2008 I found this: €850 / rendernode. So... on our 24/7 farm we have 24 nodes, so we need to have €850*24 to fill our regular farm: €20400, and that is just the network rendernodes alone. Add another 81 nodes which is €850*81: €68850. To add to this, I do remember someone mentioning that you also have to pay a yearly maintanence fee (this could be incorrect though, as I've never read it anywhere, but heard it).

Granted though, is that Mental Images will have a disscount for those who needs to upgrade in these volumes, but even then, the cost-effectiveness of LW is very much unbeatable, if you not settle with Blender of course.

Off what I've heard, Maya 2011 doesn't have as a complete integration of LCW as LW has. Also, bare in mind, that all tools that I've encountered regarding LW and shading/rendering (exrTrader, infiniMap, vRoom, Sasquatch, HDInstance etc etc) are all having the same "limitation" as LWs Screamernet; 999 rendernodes. So, even if you buy a plugin for LW, you do not have to pay any extra to allow the plugin to render on your renderfarm!

As a comparsion with Maya... we added Shave and a Haircut to our toolpipe, and above that particular cost, we had to pay a license for each rendernode as well. Now, I'm not saying that the fur solutions avaliable for LW are better than shave; what I am pointing out though, is bang for the buck, and LW10 do add alot of that for those who use or want to use LW for rendering.

Oh, and despite being a somewhat "small" change, LW can now natively read and write MDDs AND Autodesk Geometry cache format, which means it is becoming easier for users and studios to transfer data to/from LW from apps like 3DS Max and Maya.

So, yes... LW10, with or without CORE, for a studio that needs alot of rendering capability will most likely be worth $895 or $1495 (if they are late) if they make sure they hire the right talent (of which there seems to be alot of, actually).

:)

Dexter2999
01-14-2011, 05:08 PM
...for the love of God, stop feeding it!

Cageman
01-14-2011, 05:22 PM
...for the love of God, stop feeding it!

LOL

:D

(yes.. I know.. but I couldn't resist). :)

zarti
01-14-2011, 06:03 PM
Amen !






.

cresshead
01-14-2011, 06:08 PM
...for the love of God, stop feeding it!

nom nom nom!:D

Mental Ray on 3dsmax is unlimited render nodes via backbruner so i too can use the phrase 'not a dime' just like Lightave!
:devil:

this is abit like Tennis isn't it? :devil:

hrgiger
01-14-2011, 06:15 PM
nom nom nom!:D

Mental Ray on 3dsmax is unlimited render nodes via backbruner so i too can use the phrase 'not a dime' just like Lightave!
:devil:


Steve- I just got an invite for another webinar for XBR. You going to see that too?

cresshead
01-14-2011, 07:17 PM
depends when it's on 'live'..i'll probably be stuck at work...will have to catch the re run no doubt