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View Full Version : Trueart┤s TrueObjImport!..Alternatives or demo?



prometheus
12-08-2010, 09:01 AM
Im constantly converting objects from solidworks to lightwave trough deep exploration, but even with exported vertex maps, It is hard to get good clean surfaces for certain metal logo┤s and emblems wich has slighly curved faces and are very triangulated.

I would like to know how TrueartsObjimport could handle this, unfortunatly I cant see any demo for that plugin thou.

So Is there any other plugin handler or maybe there┤s some dpon┤t node that could do the same to fix the shading render problem with smoothing errors?

Michael

-EsHrA-
12-08-2010, 09:22 AM
you've tried it with http://micromouse.ca/ ?..

mlon

prometheus
12-08-2010, 12:01 PM
you've tried it with http://micromouse.ca/ ?..

mlon

You mean accutrans...nope, we already use deep exploration for conversions.

Do you know for fact that accutrans would help get rid of smoothing errors from obj exports? does it have such feature?

Michael

StereoMike
12-08-2010, 04:07 PM
Wasn't 9.6 capable of using the normal data of obj? I remember I bought the trueart plugin but never really used it. Shortly after I shelled out the money Newtek announced obj support. But I never used that aswell.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but if you have a nice obj which looks smooth cause it has normal data applied - and then you edit it in modeler - won't it get messed up? I never tried it though, but these were my fears.

mike

jwiede
12-08-2010, 05:36 PM
Wasn't 9.6 capable of using the normal data of obj?
I definitely seem to recall that was added in 9.x's OBJ handling at some pt.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but if you have a nice obj which looks smooth cause it has normal data applied - and then you edit it in modeler - won't it get messed up
That matches with my recollection as well (any editing of the geometry within Modeler would potentially erase the OBJ-provided normal data), but I don't recall ever actually putting it to test.

evenflcw
12-09-2010, 12:49 AM
It won't ruin the OBJ-provided data. The problem is the vertex normal shading implementation in Modeler. It is the simplest possible variant - it expects and works in object coordinates. So when you edit the position of a vertex, and likely alter the geometric normal by doing so, the vertex normal still points in the same absolute direction. If it initially points downward, but the user rotates the mesh 180 degrees so the geometric vertex normal now points in the opposite direction, the vertex normal will still point downward, instead of following the mesh transformation and end up pointing straight up. I would venture a guess that most user would expect and want it to do the latter (end up pointing straight up), ie want the vertex normal to stay relative to the geometric normal. What we need is an optional local/tangent space variant, that just like a normal map (image) will "adapt" to a deforming mesh instead of naively maintain it's vector in object space.

All NT needs to do to fix this is to implement a slightly different shading algorithm (tangent) and add an option in the gui for the choice of shading method, object or tangent. It will then be up to the user to construct his vertex normal map to suit the predestined mode. One could perhaps add another vertex normal vmap type, analogous to relative and absolute endomorph, just to better communicate to the software what it should expect (obj or tangent coord).

To my knowledge this is only an issue in Modeler. In Layout, when deforming the mesh, the vertex normals, which are in object space, will transform along with the vertex positions, to shade as expected in world coordinates. This is similar to how a projected texture in modeler won't stick, but will be stuck in layout.

EDIT: Oyeah. I should mention none of my experience is with OBJ import specifically, but with LWs internal vertex normal handling only.

prometheus
12-09-2010, 12:55 AM
I definitely seem to recall that was added in 9.x's OBJ handling at some pt.

That matches with my recollection as well (any editing of the geometry within Modeler would potentially erase the OBJ-provided normal data), but I don't recall ever actually putting it to test.


Uhhmm...I didn┤t recognize that changes made to the geometry could do that, I should have thou:)

In my case I have exported out a machine and deleted original cushion on a machine and replaced with subpatched remodeled cushions, and added some welding seems on the model, so It┤s possible that might have ruined the vertex normal data, I have to check that.

And yeah IvÚ been using the vertex normal map in the surface editor, without bigger sucess.

However I guess the trueart objimport would then be of no use if it was
as simple as applying the vertex normals in the surface editor, except for those with older lw versions.

I┤ll check to see if I can attach some samples later on.

Edit.....http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/TrueOBJImport

Michael

Sensei
12-09-2010, 02:23 AM
Im constantly converting objects from solidworks to lightwave trough deep exploration, but even with exported vertex maps, It is hard to get good clean surfaces for certain metal logo┤s and emblems wich has slighly curved faces and are very triangulated.

So you're using LW v9.6 native OBJ support, without success..



I would like to know how TrueartsObjimport could handle this, unfortunatly I cant see any demo for that plugin thou.

Just attach source OBJ to message, and I will show you how it looks after conversion in render..



However I guess the trueart objimport would then be of no use if it was
as simple as applying the vertex normals in the surface editor, except for those with older lw versions.

Do you guys don't have any 3rd party renderers?! Anyone Fprime?
TrueOBJImport is the ONLY way to have correct renders of OBJ in Fprime, Kray and TrueHair Previewer..



That matches with my recollection as well (any editing of the geometry within Modeler would potentially erase the OBJ-provided normal data), but I don't recall ever actually putting it to test.

That's correct. The same way as Weights, Morphs, UVs will be gone, if you edit something..

prometheus
12-09-2010, 03:26 AM
So you're using LW v9.6 native OBJ support, without success..



Just attach source OBJ to message, and I will show you how it looks after conversion in render..



Do you guys don't have any 3rd party renderers?! Anyone Fprime?
TrueOBJImport is the ONLY way to have correct renders of OBJ in Fprime, Kray and TrueHair Previewer..



That's correct. The same way as Weights, Morphs, UVs will be gone, if you edit something..


Yepp true..lightwave 9.6 and It┤s obj support, for some things it works, but for certain stuff like logo emblems with a slight curved surface with engraved text, it doesn┤t do a good job, unless unchecking smooth angles of surfaces, that would however remove the effect of chromed reflected slightly curved surfaces.

Im not sure Im allowed to post the company logo, I┤ll check that, or create a similar with a different logo.

Fprime is used many times and it has uggly smoothing errors.

kray is not an option for the moment, maybe later when we the time to evalute it.

octane renderer seems promising, and deep exploration 6 for hdr renders,those two seem to handle smoothing angles better, but I still have to test that properly
with chromed surfaces and materials.


Michael

Sensei
12-09-2010, 03:50 AM
Yepp true..lightwave 9.6 and It┤s obj support, for some things it works, but for certain stuff like logo emblems with a slight curved surface with engraved text, it doesn┤t do a good job, unless unchecking smooth angles of surfaces, that would however remove the effect of chromed reflected slightly curved surfaces.

When you have picked up Surface Editor > Vertex Normal Map, toggling Smoothing on and off should do absolute NOTHING. And that's with OBJs that I have on disk. Because all normals should be taken from Vertex Normal Map, and nothing should be evaluated by LightWave..



Fprime is used many times and it has uggly smoothing errors.

That's because you're not using TrueOBJImport.. and 3rd party renderer has no idea about Vertex Normal Map that's set in Surface Editor. It is evaluating smoothing on it's own. Except when normals are given in Node Editor, in Surface's node Normal input - and that's how TrueOBJImport injects its normals to 3rd party renderer - and 3rd party or native renderer stops evaluating by itself, and start using what Node Editor provided.

prometheus
12-09-2010, 05:54 AM
Sensei!

You have a personal message notification.

Michael

gristle
12-09-2010, 01:21 PM
I have been using TureObjImport since it was released and have only had good results. You just have to make sure you don't accidentally rotate/translate etc the model in Modeller.

I did look at using the native solution in LW, but that went nowhere as I use FPrime and Kray.

There was a bug with the 64 bit plugin, it was ignoring the surface names on import.

Sensei
12-09-2010, 01:51 PM
To clarify- you can do some transformations - movement of the ALL points (Modify > Move, Modify > Center tools), scaling the ALL points by the same value in every axis (Modify > Size tool).

You should be able to select connected geometry, then cut, and paste to another layer. Then move such connected group of polygons.

gristle
12-09-2010, 02:00 PM
Yep, always scale by .1% after the import. OBJ from Rhino always comes in the srong scale.

I could select connected geom, but what a headache on files with lots of parts/materials. I just use the 32 bit plugin for import, then run surfaceSplit script to layer materials off. Not to much of an issue swapping between machines :)

Sensei
12-09-2010, 02:11 PM
Yep, always scale by .1% after the import. OBJ from Rhino always comes in the srong scale.


Apparently their 1.0 value is 1 mm, not 1 meter.. So, object in Rhino with size 1m has values between 0...1000, after conversion in LW has 0... 1km..



I could select connected geom, but what a headache on files with lots of parts/materials. I just use the 32 bit plugin for import, then run surfaceSplit script to layer materials off. Not to much of an issue swapping between machines :)

This thread gave me idea to make interactive vertex normal map editor. Every point would have blue handle coming from its position, when clicked, user could move to adjust it. This way, if something was broken by editing using LW regular or 3rd party tools, it could be fixed by user.

prometheus
12-09-2010, 03:17 PM
I have been using TureObjImport since it was released and have only had good results. You just have to make sure you don't accidentally rotate/translate etc the model in Modeller.

I did look at using the native solution in LW, but that went nowhere as I use FPrime and Kray.

There was a bug with the 64 bit plugin, it was ignoring the surface names on import.

Ahhhum a bug? ..I mostly use 64 bit.

Anyway Ive been checking again with some exports from deep exploration and It might have been some smoothing surfaces things unchecked in there sometimes just before export, anyway it looks good now with no smoothing errors directly from the lightwave renderer, so I will probably just switch over to simply final render with lightwave and not use fprime for that and those types of renders requring exported models with vertex maps.

Im Not sure I would add trueobj importer just to fix this with fprime, and we are also checking how octane renderer performs for the whole of 99 euro.

Michael

razorrust
01-21-2011, 11:40 AM
This thread gave me idea to make interactive vertex normal map editor. Every point would have blue handle coming from its position, when clicked, user could move to adjust it. This way, if something was broken by editing using LW regular or 3rd party tools, it could be fixed by user.
I have lately been messing around with some game modding lately, and this is one feature that would be KILLER to have in Lightwave!!!
All of the softwares that do this as far as I know are 3DS Max, Maya, XSI, and Houdini. Image based normal maps are great of course, but for many props they are unnecessary.
Smoothing groups are another way of doing it in other packages, and I have read about some workarounds to getting this done in LW. But the interactive method you mentioned would be a great boon to working with triangulated meshes from any source and get them tweaked to render beautifully in a realtime or raytraced environment!