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DColboch
12-01-2010, 02:03 PM
The latest information on LightWave 10 posted here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114586

Liber777
12-01-2010, 03:23 PM
This is going to be a great upgrade. Is the release planned for this month?

calilifestyle
12-01-2010, 04:13 PM
I hope not. I cant spend money on my self, this month. hehe

Titus
12-01-2010, 04:23 PM
Finally I can use my Space Navigator... with LW.

dwburman
12-02-2010, 12:49 AM
Yes. Lightwave 10 ships this month, but the upgrade price doesn't go up until sometime in 2011.

Kuzey
12-02-2010, 04:54 AM
LightWave CORE will officially begin shipping with LightWave Modeler and Layout in 2011 and will be delivered to LightWave 10 owners at no additional cost.

If you have not yet upgraded to LightWave 10, you can continue to purchase LightWave through our Special Limited Time Offer of US$495 for upgrades and US$895 for full units. This Special Offer includes membership in the LightWave HardCORE community with all of the HardCORE benefits. In 2011, when an updated version of LightWave 10 ships with Modeler, Layout and CORE together, the price will increase to US$695 for upgrades and US$1495 for full units.

The wording is a bit strange so it's kinda confusing...does it mean?

Will LW Core be an additional release after the LW10 release in 2011, but before the LW11 cycle....will there even be a LW11 cycle???

Wasn't LW Core already shipping with LW10 beta and what everyone was waiting for....is the official gold release????

If you upgrade now, how long will your HardCore membership last, I thought it will be closed to new members and or not have full benefits??


Kuzey

Kuzey
12-02-2010, 04:58 AM
Oh and DColboch...can you get your avatar/information updated to reflect that you work for Newtek :D

Kuzey

mav3rick
12-02-2010, 05:17 AM
Yes. Lightwave 10 ships this month, but the upgrade price doesn't go up until sometime in 2011.

who told you this?

Nicolas Jordan
12-02-2010, 05:50 AM
The wording is a bit strange so it's kinda confusing...does it mean?

Will LW Core be an additional release after the LW10 release in 2011, but before the LW11 cycle....will there even be a LW11 cycle???

Wasn't LW Core already shipping with LW10 beta and what everyone was waiting for....is the official gold release????

If you upgrade now, how long will your HardCore membership last, I thought it will be closed to new members and or not have full benefits??


Kuzey

Core will be released sometime next year to anyone who purchased the LW10 upgrade. My guess is that Core will probably be ready later next year rather than sooner.

Kuzey
12-02-2010, 06:01 AM
Core will be released sometime next year to anyone who purchased the LW10 upgrade. My guess is that Core will probably be ready later next year rather than sooner.

Thanks Nicolas,

I thought it would have taken longer to get Core1 (the standalone version) out the door. It's still strange, as it mentions Modeler and Layout in that first section I quoted, so it still feels like they are talking about LW10.5 or LW11(with Core) and not Core on it's own.


Kuzey

lardbros
12-02-2010, 06:30 AM
Wowwwww!! This is brilliant... definitely buying into this!!! ;) Best version of Lightwave ever!!!

Nicolas Jordan
12-02-2010, 07:48 AM
Thanks Nicolas,

I thought it would have taken longer to get Core1 (the standalone version) out the door. It's still strange, as it mentions Modeler and Layout in that first section I quoted, so it still feels like they are talking about LW10.5 or LW11(with Core) and not Core on it's own.


Kuzey

I'm still pretty sure that Core will still be no where close to being a complete pipeline(standalone) in one app and will still need to be used together with LW10. I didn't mean to make it sound like it will be a stand alone program that won't need modeler and layout.

dwburman
12-02-2010, 08:53 AM
who told you this?
The 2nd to last paragraph says Layout and Modeler (with access to the pre-release version of Core) are shipping Q4 2010. Since this is the last month of Q4 2010, Lightwave 10 is shipping this month.

The last paragraph of the announcement gives the pricing info.

Kuzey
12-02-2010, 11:40 AM
I'm still pretty sure that Core will still be no where close to being a complete pipeline(standalone) in one app and will still need to be used together with LW10. I didn't mean to make it sound like it will be a stand alone program that won't need modeler and layout.

No problem...it's just the wording of the whole section I quoted that doesn't make sense :hey:

LW10 with Core, released this last quarter and LW Core (with LW10 or higher) released next year and free by the sounds of it.

Kuzey

hrgiger
12-02-2010, 12:56 PM
No problem...it's just the wording of the whole section I quoted that doesn't make sense :hey:

LW10 with Core, released this last quarter and LW Core (with LW10 or higher) released next year and free by the sounds of it.

Kuzey

Yes CORE will be included with your purchase of LW10 regardless of when you buy it, but only people who buy a hardcore membership (before 10 is released) will receive any kind of updates to 10. Bug fixes will continue to be free to all.

calilifestyle
12-02-2010, 01:55 PM
don't forget people that bought fiber fx prior to it being part of Lightwave get a free update to lw10 also. hehe

Kuzey
12-02-2010, 03:53 PM
Yes CORE will be included with your purchase of LW10 regardless of when you buy it, but only people who buy a hardcore membership (before 10 is released) will receive any kind of updates to 10. Bug fixes will continue to be free to all.

Good to see you around hrgiger...it's been awhile :D

Does that mean only updates during the 10 cycle and not say LW11, because, it sounds like they are planning another major release...that will be part of your original purchase of LW10. That is, buy now and get the next major version free...going by the previous quote???

I do remember...that if you bought after LW10 was released (or was it before LW10 is released), you get to test the LW11 beta...but not get the final gold build at the end of the year. Sounds like that policy has changed yet again??

Kuzey

pnevai
12-02-2010, 04:29 PM
This is really frustrating. Over 1 year ago we purchased lightwave 9.6 with a upgrade to LW Core, and Hardcore membership for 1 year. Well it is over a year later and still no upgrade? Now all I read is that you have to purchase LW10???????? I have emailed Newtek customer service a few times asking about this and have not gotten any clarification on this issue. Yet my account shows a HardCore Membership ID and License Key for LW Core but no facility to DL the product.

My suggestion to everyone would be to hold off purchaseing LW 10 until Newtek clarifies this or until Core is officially released. We've been flapping in the wind since October 2009 and still no promised and paid for product.

Lewis
12-02-2010, 04:33 PM
If you purchased HCmembership you will get LW10 for free (no need to pay again for it) and your membership is already extended well into 2011 (check your registration page).

LW_Will
12-02-2010, 06:05 PM
NEWTEK: We Will Sell No Program Before Its Time. ;-)

Greenlaw
12-02-2010, 06:59 PM
Yet my account shows a HardCore Membership ID and License Key for LW Core but no facility to DL the product.

Downloads for the LW10 beta and CORE have never been available through the user account. For specific info on how to download 10, you should look in the official Hard CORE threads. As a registered user, you will find the Hard CORE section is listed near the bottom of the forums list. If you don't see it there, you should contact Newtek's support department about gaining access.

G.

lardbros
12-03-2010, 02:25 AM
Come on guys...if you really had an interest and bought into it all early you'd have gotten emails to download the latest build and try out Core... this has been going on for a year or more... so just get your facts right, and try the latest builds! :D

Kuzey
12-03-2010, 04:34 AM
Oh and DColboch...can you get your avatar/information updated to reflect that you work for Newtek :D


@ DColboch

Oooooooh...that's more like it :thumbsup:

Kuzey

geothefaust
12-03-2010, 12:26 PM
Come on guys...if you really had an interest and bought into it all early you'd have gotten emails to download the latest build and try out Core... this has been going on for a year or more... so just get your facts right, and try the latest builds! :D

Not everyone got the emails, for one reason or another. NT really never made the process easy to do, nor understand. It's been nearly 2 years and still it's in shambles.

NT dropped the ball time and again. Defending them at this point, frankly, is just plain silly.

DColboch
12-03-2010, 12:41 PM
Pre-view builds of LightWave 10 are available through the HardCORE forums. A guide on how to get started with HardCORE is located here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112155

lardbros
12-03-2010, 01:37 PM
Not everyone got the emails, for one reason or another. NT really never made the process easy to do, nor understand. It's been nearly 2 years and still it's in shambles.

NT dropped the ball time and again. Defending them at this point, frankly, is just plain silly.

But if people didn't get the emails, they would still have noticed that the beta forums were active... I dunno... just feels like Newtek are getting a lot of bad rap for not getting the builds to people, but if people were really that interested they would have found the builds easy enough!

That's all I am saying

Greenlaw
12-03-2010, 02:52 PM
NT dropped the ball time and again. Defending them at this point, frankly, is just plain silly.
There are a few things I can complain about with CORE, but this isn't one of them. I think CORE availability has been well publicized for a couple of years now, and any user who is really interested can easily find the information here or on the main website, even if they never got an email.

Honestly though, if I never got an email regarding download instructions after purchasing the software, I would have inquired Newtek CS about it immediately.

Just sayin'. :)

G.

JCG
12-04-2010, 04:59 PM
No problem...it's just the wording of the whole section I quoted that doesn't make sense :hey:

LW10 with Core, released this last quarter and LW Core (with LW10 or higher) released next year and free by the sounds of it.

KuzeyThat would be, "LW10 [which includes] Core Beta, released this last quarter and [you'll continue to get CORE builds until] LW Core 1.0 (all by itself) released next year and free as confirmed."

Philbert
12-04-2010, 11:58 PM
My response? Thank goodness! It's been a rough time since the Core announcement and I have not been able to upgrade, as much as I wanted to. I think I have some work coming in next week that should cover it, but I'm still really glad to have some extra time before the price goes up and it's too late to get into HC.

I was just thinking, just to clarify, LW 10 (Modeler / Layout) will be released this month. Then some time later in 2011 CORE will officially come out. So in the mean time... CORE will still be available in open beta right?

Kuzey
12-05-2010, 06:00 AM
That would be, "LW10 [which includes] Core Beta, released this last quarter and [you'll continue to get CORE builds until] LW Core 1.0 (all by itself) released next year and free as confirmed."

Oooh...that does sounds nice, I hope they don't go and change it again in the next few weeks :D

Kuzey

Philbert
12-05-2010, 12:20 PM
I guess that quote answers my question. :)

erikals
12-05-2010, 10:41 PM
Lightwave Modeler /Layout is released this quarter,
and the new application Lightwave CORE (free upgrade) is released next year.

...maybe something like that

hrgiger
12-05-2010, 10:43 PM
I was just thinking, just to clarify, LW 10 (Modeler / Layout) will be released this month. Then some time later in 2011 CORE will officially come out. So in the mean time... CORE will still be available in open beta right?

Yes, that is correct Phil.

colkai
12-06-2010, 03:23 AM
So the whole thing with Jay pushing CORE and "Legacy LW" being removed has died the death? So is the new focus LW as we know it then? If it is and that whole Jay/CORE thing was a fubar I'm gonna be mightily peeved as that's the reason I bailed, I hated what Jay was doing to "my Lightwave".

What I'm getting a sense of here is CORE is "yeah, maybe sometime in the future" and LW10 is what we expect of LW.

Ahh well, such is life. :(

Philbert
12-06-2010, 03:36 AM
It seems as though CORE is still intended to replace Layout / Modeler, only now it's later rather than sooner.

erikals
12-06-2010, 04:25 AM
CORE will replace L/M, certainly... just not now

Kuzey
12-06-2010, 05:01 AM
So, how much of a complete app will LW Core be when released next year (the free update for HC members)??

Lets say...that Core 2010(current release) is at 50% completeness, then Core 2011 should be something like 75% complete and we'll see a full product in 2012....with no legacy LW?

I put the year in there to make it less confusing...hehe.

Of course those dates will change....if Newtek hit an unexpected wall of bugs down the road.

Kuzey

erikals
12-06-2010, 05:27 AM
it's mostly about bug squashings and tweaks, that's all.
for more info you'll have to join HC :]

i'm personally quite relaxed about it, as i'm not in a rush.
remember, Rome wasn't built in a day, neither will CORE be... :]
imo, the development speed of Layout /CORE has been quite fast, if you look at the big picture.

 

lardbros
12-06-2010, 05:42 AM
So the whole thing with Jay pushing CORE and "Legacy LW" being removed has died the death? So is the new focus LW as we know it then? If it is and that whole Jay/CORE thing was a fubar I'm gonna be mightily peeved as that's the reason I bailed, I hated what Jay was doing to "my Lightwave".

What I'm getting a sense of here is CORE is "yeah, maybe sometime in the future" and LW10 is what we expect of LW.

Ahh well, such is life. :(

Yeah, I remember when you bailed! I like the new direction... most of my panic was down to a CORE that we all knew just wouldn't ever be production ready in time. Now they are getting LW10 updated, and CORE will get it's fair share of work next year... Im happy with this.

As erikals said he's not in a rush, either am I... I can see the potential of CORE and it will get there, just not this Christmas!

Kuzey
12-06-2010, 05:46 AM
it's mostly about big bug squashings and tweaks, that's all.
for more info you'll have to join HC :]

i'm personally quite relaxed about it, as i'm not in a rush.
remember, Rome wasn't built in a day, neither will CORE be... :]

Sure, for the current release that would be true...I hope they aren't adding features at this late date :D

I'm more interested in why they chose to name next years release LW Core (with LW)...instead of LW10+(with Core). Obviously, there is a shift in focus, moving away from the legacy app to the new product. I just want a rough idea of how far along LW Core1(2011) will be in regards of the final goal.


Kuzey

Kuzey
12-06-2010, 06:46 AM
it's mostly about bug squashings and tweaks, that's all.
for more info you'll have to join HC :]


 

Oh wait...are you saying that next years LW Core release is just bug fixes?

That is.....there is no major difference between LW10(with Core) & LW Core(with LW), other than bug fixes and a name change?

Kuzey

Lightwolf
12-06-2010, 06:55 AM
That is.....there is no major difference between LW10(with Core) & LW Core(with LW), other than bug fixes and a name change?

I don't even think that there's a name change... it's LW Core just as it's LW Layout and LW Modeler.

Cheers,
Mike

Kuzey
12-06-2010, 07:07 AM
Mikeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....don't do this...hehe :hey:

Well, my impression is that there is a) a name change and b) as such is a major update and not a bug fix update?

That's what I got from the Newtek post...heck...check the heading of this thread...hehe.

Newtek......jump in anytime you wish :D

Kuzey

erikals
12-06-2010, 07:21 AM
to put it simple, nothing has changed.

Skonk
12-06-2010, 08:35 AM
Lightwave 10 was supposed to be Layout 10, modeller 10 and Core 1.0 and was supposed to be released before the end of this year (or at least that was Newtek's latest interpretation of the new product).

Clearly they realised the Core 1.0 was not going to be ready in time so are releasing "Lightwave 10" without it (so just Layout + Modeller).

Core 1.0 will then be released when it's done and owners of "Lightwave 10" will be able to download it for no additional charge (which makes sense since they have already paid for it).

In the mean time owners of "Lightwave 10" will continue to have access to the beta builds of Core.

That's how I understand it.



In all honesty though; I'm just glad I got a refund after buying into Hardcore back when it was first announced because what people are actually going to get is nothing like what was promised back then.

erikals
12-06-2010, 08:50 AM
yes, that's right.

Kuzey
12-06-2010, 10:56 AM
Lightwave 10 was supposed to be Layout 10, modeller 10 and Core 1.0 and was supposed to be released before the end of this year (or at least that was Newtek's latest interpretation of the new product).

Clearly they realised the Core 1.0 was not going to be ready in time so are releasing "Lightwave 10" without it (so just Layout + Modeller).

Core 1.0 will then be released when it's done and owners of "Lightwave 10" will be able to download it for no additional charge (which makes sense since they have already paid for it).

In the mean time owners of "Lightwave 10" will continue to have access to the beta builds of Core.

That's how I understand it.



In all honesty though; I'm just glad I got a refund after buying into Hardcore back when it was first announced because what people are actually going to get is nothing like what was promised back then.


yes, that's right.

That's more like it....Since these posts are for people outside of the HC universe, they should be precise :hey:

When I read LW Core, the first thing that came to mind, is the next major update....post LW10. They should have said something like, the Core component of LW10, will be released at a later date....since it's not ready at this time etc. etc.

Shame....I was getting excited about Core too :D

Kuzey

colkai
12-06-2010, 10:59 AM
In all honesty though; I'm just glad I got a refund after buying into Hardcore back when it was first announced because what people are actually going to get is nothing like what was promised back then.

That was a lot of my frustration. Just annoying that due to currency fluctuations, my refund was somewhat less than my outlay, but that's not Newtek's fault obviously.
Ahh well, I've got a 2nd hand bass guitar with it anyways so I have something in my hands now, which I can use (depending on who you talk to :p ).

dwburman
12-06-2010, 11:23 PM
It's buried in the second to last paragraph:



LightWave HardCORE users worldwide have previewed LightWave 10 and have shared that it provides a huge improvement in their workflow and results. LightWave 10 consists of Modeler, Layout and CORE. The upcoming release in Q4 2010 includes LightWave 10 Modeler and Layout with pre-release builds of CORE, delivered through the HardCORE forums. LightWave CORE will officially begin shipping with LightWave Modeler and Layout in 2011 and will be delivered to LightWave 10 owners at no additional cost.

:)

colkai
12-07-2010, 02:36 AM
Here's a simple question.
I've seen much talk of the new vaunted VPR stuff and lots of Layout / render / camera stuff (as was the case with the 9.X release).
However, I ain't seen much of the much hyped and pushed "focus on modeller" that was promised at the start of the CORE/LWX/LW10 cycle.
So can anyone say, just how far advanced LW10 modelling tools are to say, oh, I dunno, (looks on his HD), Hmm, LW9.6 with LWCAD and Bevel++ ?

Or is it another case of "yes, this is the way forward", "well, subject to change", "well, actually, we never did manage to get around to it, it's okay, next release we will HONEST"?

Kuzey
12-07-2010, 04:02 AM
It's buried in the second to last paragraph:



:)

Haha...was that always there or added later...I don't think I got that far and no one mentioned it earlier....funny stuff :D

Kuzey

Skonk
12-07-2010, 04:22 AM
Here's a simple question.
I've seen much talk of the new vaunted VPR stuff and lots of Layout / render / camera stuff (as was the case with the 9.X release).
However, I ain't seen much of the much hyped and pushed "focus on modeller" that was promised at the start of the CORE/LWX/LW10 cycle.
So can anyone say, just how far advanced LW10 modelling tools are to say, oh, I dunno, (looks on his HD), Hmm, LW9.6 with LWCAD and Bevel++ ?

Or is it another case of "yes, this is the way forward", "well, subject to change", "well, actually, we never did manage to get around to it, it's okay, next release we will HONEST"?

From what I can tell; I dont think anything has changed in modeller at all other than the look of the UI.

I suspect because the plan was for Core to take care of it but obviously thats all gone to pot now.

lardbros
12-07-2010, 05:23 AM
They have done some small things with modeller.... but not sure if i can say without breaking NDA... or even if that breaks NDA already?

Not any LWCAD tools as standard in there though.

colkai
12-07-2010, 08:28 AM
They have done some small things with modeller.... but not sure if i can say without breaking NDA... or even if that breaks NDA already?

Not any LWCAD tools as standard in there though.

Wow, so much for the promises then. It depresses me that after several years, modeller remains the very poor cousin in LW, I dunno why I am surprised, after all, I've seen nothing major on the modelling front for years from Newtek, without 3rd parties, just how old would modeller look toolset wise?
I wonder if they have anyone there who actually has the coding skills to come close to Viktor, Pictrix et al, never mind surpass them.

Ya know, after wondering if I was wrong to bail, I'm starting to feel a lot better about my skepticism about where this would end up.
I always used to say I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, but now, I'm suspecting that ain't likely to be the case and once again it will be "ahh, we didn't have the resources...next time" (repeat per release cycle).

lardbros
12-07-2010, 09:07 AM
But Colkai.... VPR is truly an awesome beast!!! :D

Every cloud and all that...

JCG
12-07-2010, 09:12 AM
Wow, so much for the promises then. It depresses me that after several years, modeller remains the very poor cousin in LW, I dunno why I am surprised, after all, I've seen nothing major on the modelling front for years from Newtek, without 3rd parties, just how old would modeller look toolset wise?
I wonder if they have anyone there who actually has the coding skills to come close to Viktor, Pictrix et al, never mind surpass them.

Ya know, after wondering if I was wrong to bail, I'm starting to feel a lot better about my skepticism about where this would end up.
I always used to say I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, but now, I'm suspecting that ain't likely to be the case and once again it will be "ahh, we didn't have the resources...next time" (repeat per release cycle).Well, it does make sense that they focus on the modules that are going to be released this month first. The "modeling focus" was always supposed to be for CORE, but, as the announcement indicates, that will be worked on in 2011.

colkai
12-07-2010, 11:32 AM
But Colkai.... VPR is truly an awesome beast!!! :D

Every cloud and all that...

Aye, and I'm sure once again those that live off Layout / cameras etc are truly happy.
However, the old "next year / next release" for the work on modeller got really a couple of years ago.
I shall expect that in reality, it's going to be LW11 or LW12 before Newtek tackle modeller full on. That is, of course, unless they find another new rendering or visualization feature that takes precedence, 'cause the Gods know, there's a precedence for that. :devil:
After all, once LW10 is released, any feature updates are only going to be in LW11 given what I'm reading these days. So if it ain't in LW10 when it ships, not likely to appear I'm guessing.

erikals
12-07-2010, 11:40 AM
colkai, what kind of upgrades /features are you waiting for?...

Lewis
12-07-2010, 11:51 AM
colkai, what kind of upgrades /features are you waiting for?...

Ins't that clear from his couple of posts ? He want modeling upgrades (Modeler or CORE but fully working tools, no half finished tools). NT did "promise" those years ago even before CORE was mentioned.

erikals
12-07-2010, 11:57 AM
no, it's not clear, it's actually quite vague.
it needs to be way more specific than that...

Lewis
12-07-2010, 12:00 PM
no, it's not clear, it's actually quite vague.
it needs to be way more specific than that...

Why ? would it make any difference if he name exact tools what needs to be updated/fixed in modeler? I've tried that, and explained and showed and sent as requests and it didn't help so i fully understand him :D.

Kuzey
12-07-2010, 12:03 PM
no, it's not clear, it's actually quite vague.
it needs to be way more specific than that...

Hang on.....can you actually model in Core, from start to completion without needing to jump into modeler ??

Kuzey

erikals
12-07-2010, 12:29 PM
ok, maybe i misunderstood,
i though he meant changes to the LW modeler, not the modeler in CORE... ?

erikals
12-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Why ? would it make any difference if he name exact tools what needs to be updated/fixed in modeler? I've tried that, and explained and showed and sent as requests and it didn't help so i fully understand him :D.

well, as far as the CORE fix videos you made you have my 100% support on those.
...a 100% :]

 

Lewis
12-07-2010, 12:36 PM
well, as far as the CORE fix videos you made you have my 100% support on those.
...a 100% :]

 

Hehe Thx :).

Guys/girls outside of HC don't know what they are missing, all that "fun" with those videos (it's over 1.5GB by now) ;).

Kuzey
12-07-2010, 12:41 PM
Hehe Thx :).

Guys/girls outside of HC don't know what they are missing, all that "fun" with those videos (it's over 1.5GB by now) ;).

Now....that is down right mean...haha

Just curious, has any of your "Core fix videos" made it into Core...that's a lot of effort I must say :hey:

Kuzey

erikals
12-07-2010, 12:45 PM
Kuzey, this area is outside the beta... hehe... :]
join CORE... :]

Kuzey
12-07-2010, 01:03 PM
Kuzey, this area is outside the beta... hehe... :]
join CORE... :]

Haha...I was thinking about it, when I thought Newtek was going to do a special promotion....buy one(LW10), get one(LW11) free sale...a few pages back :)

But..there's still a free copy of LW10/Core floating around at preset central, so you never know.

Actually, I'm sure it won't be me that they give it to...but it's all fun :hey:

Kuzey

OnlineRender
12-07-2010, 01:18 PM
Haha...I was thinking about it, when I thought Newtek was going to do a special promotion....buy one(LW10), get one(LW11) free sale...a few pages back :)

But..there's still a free copy of LW10/Core floating around at preset central, so you never know.

Actually, I'm sure it won't be me that they give it to...but it's all fun :hey:

Kuzey

Kuzey why don't you just ask NT to give you a free copy , or even quicker contact customer services and say that you are interested in buying it , can you please give me quick tour of core/lw ,cityengine do this as standard ,even have a booking form for demos

Kuzey
12-07-2010, 01:29 PM
Na...that won't work....not after all my Core questions...I'm sure they are sick of me...hehe :hey:

I'll wait until Core is more complete....maybe around 2012 or 2013.

Kuzey

OnlineRender
12-07-2010, 01:35 PM
Na...that won't work....not after all my Core questions...I'm sure they are sick of me...hehe :hey:

I'll wait until Core is more complete....maybe around 2012 or 2013.

Kuzey

I would be looking to buy lw10 first ! core is just a bonus ! "something to play around with " .

Lewis
12-07-2010, 01:39 PM
Na...that won't work....not after all my Core questions...I'm sure they are sick of me...hehe :hey:
Kuzey

Sick of you ? Then what should I say with all those videos and feature requests and bug reports, naaaahh man if they are sick of you then they would send me to Mars by now :D :D.

OnlineRender
12-07-2010, 01:53 PM
man if they are sick of you then they would send me to Mars by now :D :D.

beg to differ :D

This THread
EVIDENCE A) Kuzey 17
erikals 10
lardbros 6
colkai 5
Lewis 5

forums not showing other core threads "mainly because most of them shut down " and I think Kuzey wins hands down on they threads as well .


:rock:

Skonk
12-07-2010, 01:55 PM
Kuzey why don't you just ask NT to give you a free copy , or even quicker contact customer services and say that you are interested in buying it , can you please give me quick tour of core/lw ,cityengine do this as standard ,even have a booking form for demos

A few months back I asked Newtek Europe if they could give me tempory access to the core beta so I could evaluate it because I was in a position at work to upgrade our 40 Lightwave 9 licenses (I was just hoping for a 1 week key or something).

If it looked like it would be useful and wouldn't just complicate things for the students then I would have upgraded all of our licenses.

They said they would see what they could do and get back to me; they never got back to me (what a supprise) and even when I mailed back asking "Has there been any progress...." I got no reply to that either.

End result..... we switched to 3D Studio Max 2010/2011.

Note: I work at a college, which for the last 5 years has been putting students out into the world with experience in using Lightwave 3D... but no longer.

Kuzey
12-07-2010, 01:56 PM
I would be looking to buy lw10 first ! core is just a bonus ! "something to play around with " .

Yeah...but LW10 is too similar to LW 9.6, except for VPR and linear work flow and maybe a few other features. I want to try interactive modelling, try and figure out new solutions to old modelling problems from old LW :D



Sick of you ? Then what should I say with all those videos and feature requests and bug reports, naaaahh man if they are sick of you then they would send me to Mars by now :D :D.

Haha....it's good to know there is more than one, I was feeling like the odd one out :D

I hope Newtek will allow you to post those videos in the public section....once the NDA runs out...it sounds very interesting indeed :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Kuzey
12-07-2010, 01:59 PM
beg to differ :D

This THread
EVIDENCE A) Kuzey 17
erikals 10
lardbros 6
colkai 5
Lewis 5

forums not showing other core threads "mainly because most of them shut down " and I think Kuzey wins hands down on they threads as well .


:rock:

Haha...but that's just the public section, I'm sure Lewis is running riot in the HC forums :D

Kuzey

Lewis
12-07-2010, 02:07 PM
Haha...but that's just the public section, I'm sure Lewis is running riot in the HC forums :D

Kuzey

Nahh I'm not making riot(s) I'm always trying to be constructive and say/show what I mean exactly and WHY ;).

OnlineRender
12-07-2010, 02:15 PM
we switched to 3D Studio Max 2010/2011.

Note: I work at a college, which for the last 5 years has been putting students out into the world with experience in using Lightwave 3D... but no longer.

SNAP ! why wouldn't you when AD have free EDL and an app you have higher success rate with employment !esp in the UK

Kuzey
12-08-2010, 05:21 AM
Nahh I'm not making riot(s) I'm always trying to be constructive and say/show what I mean exactly and WHY ;).

Of course....I was talking about the frequency of posts...regarding those constructive comments and videos...not if they were heated or not :hey:

I'm sure it's all civil and what not in the HC world :D

Kuzey

colkai
12-08-2010, 07:04 AM
no, it's not clear, it's actually quite vague.
it needs to be way more specific than that...

Well, to clarify, yes I was talking about modeller, as I understand it CORE is "down the pipe" and yes, they did make all sorts of noises about the focus being on the long neglected modelling side of things.
I think anyone at all who has spent a fair amount of time in modeller could give you a long list of things that, in large terms, have barely changed since the 7.5 days. Think LWCAd, Bevel++, Trueart plugins PICTRIX functionality, a large portion of that functionality SHOULD be in any decent modeller, yet Newtek seems quite happy to rely on 3rd party to fill the gaps it leaves.

Indeed, I'd go further, at times, it's almost as if they hope 3rd parties will step in to cover the holes in the software.

Now if, as and when CORE is released, it does talk 100% to modeller / layout without the loss of any settings / structure / assets of a model and it DOES have this functionality built in, fine, I'll take me a demo and see if it's worth my attention.
However, my understanding is LW10 is on the horizon and I'm hearing nothing which suggests that any time has been spent producing what was supposed to be a main focus of this release. CORE, it appears, will be at some later point, so at LW10 release, if modeller has not been updated, it is difficult to use tools which are not present and may, or may not be at some indeterminate future time and release version.

Now, some if this could well be, CORE did not turn out to be what was hoped / aimed at / theorised and avenues may have been explored which have come to nought, whether that should have ever occurred anywhere outside the dev. department is a matter for conjecture.

Suffice to say, any focus on modelling tools is, as far as I can tell, not been done for the LW10 release, a focus that was assured at the start and the main reason I naively put down my pre-order back in April of 2009, (yep, 18 months ago) . One thing is for sure, should I upgrade my LW9.6 at all in the future, it will never again be on a pre-order basis.

I do not feel I need to "suck it up" when it comes to my expectations of software being what it was announced it would be.

erikals
12-09-2010, 12:04 AM
...they did make all sorts of noises about the focus being on the long neglected modelling side of things.

no, actually they didn't, this is a common misconception,
they said modelling would get the attention first, then animation...


Indeed, I'd go further, at times, it's almost as if they hope 3rd parties will step in to cover the holes in the software.

yes, i can agree with that,...
then again, take Maya for example, it has major modeling tool lacks,
and they haven't been fixed in years. the old "bugs" are still there.
sure modeler is not king of the hill, but if you look at other big packages, most of them have major lacks too, unfortunatly... :/

i've suggested to people that want better modeling tools get into Modo,
it's definetly the best alternative.

as for why NT is focusing on other areas, i'm sure that is because these are better for some reason to improve right now.
i've never expected CORE 1.0 to have great modeling tools, as i think that is too much to ask, i do however expect some major updates within Lightwave 11 /CORE 2...

 

geothefaust
12-09-2010, 02:01 AM
no, actually they didn't, this is a common misconception,
they said modelling would get the attention first, then animation...


 

How is that a misconception? They bloody well did say the modeling tools would get attention, and to a large degree. They said that the first version of CORE would be modeling modeling modeling, with a hint of render engine and some bullet dynamics. Now it's just a render engine. LW10 doesn't appear to have had any real worthy changes in modeler, either.

Why do you think one of the reasons I left the ridiculousness of HC? It sure wasn't simply because I felt like it... No, it was because NT is wishy washy and changes their tune every few weeks to suit the current fad. They have no idea how to stick to a plan.


That's just one of the reasons, I'm sure Skonk, Colkai and AndyJaggy don't feel that's a misconception either. All three of us left for identical reasons. NT lies and blunders, and whatever the flavour of the week is.


No offense man, but defending that point as a "misconception" is real BS. They effed up, plain and simple.

Philbert
12-09-2010, 02:04 AM
All I heard was that CORE 1.0 would focus more on modeling because that was needed before animation could be done.

erikals
12-09-2010, 02:10 AM
because of the magnitude of writing a 3D app from scratch, any 3D app, it's not just simply to snap the fingers and say "we'll follow this road map, there will be no big changes"

i knew this would happen, and so should others, NT also said that Core was not for everyone.

they failed on the communication part though, big time perhaps.

but where did they say modeling tools would get attention to a large degree?
i've never ever seen this stated, i don't think that is true.
though it might have seemed like that was what was being said.

Skonk
12-09-2010, 02:36 AM
because of the magnitude of writing a 3D app from scratch, any 3D app, it's not just simply to snap the fingers and say "we'll follow this road map, there will be no big changes"

i knew this would happen, and so should others, NT also said that Core was not for everyone.

they failed on the communication part though, big time perhaps.

but where did they say modeling tools would get attention to a large degree?
i've never ever seen this stated, i don't think that is true.
though it might have seemed like that was what was being said.

It was said a number of times in various bits of info that came out early on (info on he Core site, forum posts etc), most of which has progressivly been removed by Newtek as they realised it wasn't going to happen (on the Core site at least).

The real "common misconception" is people thinking that just because they don't see it being said now, they think it was never said.

Esentially it was said that the initial focus for 1.0 would be the modelling toolset; as someone said above, because with the new system the modelling tools would all be animatable so need to be implemented before the animation system it's self (i.e time line, key framing etc).

For anyone who has forgot what Newtek put on offer when they first announced Core; the original Reveal video is still up on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkQO5l5PJA (split into seveal parts).

Very different to what people are going to get now.

Philbert
12-09-2010, 02:46 AM
Again, things can change heavily in the time since that video was released, especially with the big changes at the top.

erikals
12-09-2010, 02:53 AM
well, i think we can go back and forth again for a long time on that subject,
and never get a final answer that we all agree to.

Skonk
12-09-2010, 02:56 AM
Again, things can change heavily in the time since that video was released, especially with the big changes at the top.

That's my point, they have changed massivly.

Dont get me wrong, I still think LW 10 is a valid update even ignoring Core; it has some major improvements at least in layout.

But you have to remember that some people bought into Core/Hardcore based on the information Newtek gave in this reveal video and the information they put on the Core website at the time.

A lot of what they promised at that time has now been removed (which is why I opted out of Core and took a refund).

If you buy into LW10 now, it's all good since it's much clearer now what you are going to get; but for all the folk who bought in early, they will be getting a product with very little of what they were expecting when they handed over their cash.

Nemoid
12-09-2010, 03:15 AM
What i think is actually they changed strategy and focus, because still Lw is a complete product, even if not modern and up to par with high end apps like Maya or XSI. But it has advantages on fast workflow.

Its clear that Nt choosed to update first the areas which could be more interesting production wise, especially for TV/movie production, and VPR + interactive feedback with camera was a good point, maybe even valid for things like preproduction for movies, like happened for Avatar.

Simply, what i think is that actual new stuff with modern workflow, should find its place in CORE, because it offers a new environment and more possibilities for these tools to expand in time.
Modelling tools, for example could be more realtime and flexible within CORE than LW, so that, it would be a total waste of time, now, coding new tools for modeler:
It would be great instead, using modeler and other apps as an inspiration for CORE modelling tools to offer an efficient workflow with new possibilities.
Another example is VPR itself.
Lw has now it in Layout, but the CORE one will surely be able to offer an even better experience coupled with the entire toolset. What could fit for Layout and its workflow was put into it, but the real one was projected for and within CORE.
So, the point is.
They still work on LW and it'r right to do this, because CORE will need time to replace it, so, all the enhancements they can reach making to Lw are surely welcome but at the very same time, new fundamental stuff, changing actually the way we work in better, should be coded for CORE, with possible introduction of what fits, in Layout or Modeler too. (this is what happened for VPR):thumbsup:
In this way, CORE progresses, Lw gets enhanced however, and transition goes ahead until CORE will be more mature. There will also be a time where CORE could be used together with Lw, untill it will be able to totally substitute LW. A transiion period. :agree:

Philbert
12-09-2010, 03:29 AM
But you have to remember that some people bought into Core/Hardcore based on the information Newtek gave in this reveal video and the information they put on the Core website at the time.

A lot of what they promised at that time has now been removed (which is why I opted out of Core and took a refund).


Yeah IMO those who bought in early should have expected that things might be different by the time it's released. Also they never promised anything. I hear people saying they promised things a lot, which just never happened. At least not publicly.

Skonk
12-09-2010, 03:37 AM
Yeah IMO those who bought in early should have expected that things might be different by the time it's released. Also they never promised anything. I hear people saying they promised things a lot, which just never happened. At least not publicly.

Expecting some changes is one thing.

Newtek stated a feature list, people handed over their money based on this feature list.

Roll on to now, the feature list is about 10% of what it was.

To say people should have expected that is just plain insulting.

Philbert
12-09-2010, 03:40 AM
Well All I know is I would have forked over my cash on the first day if I had any and I'd be totally cool with it right now if I had.

erikals
12-09-2010, 04:38 AM
again, that the feature list is about 10% of what it was is simple false.
i guess i've stated what i think, this discussion seems to be turning into a loop.

Philbert
12-09-2010, 04:46 AM
Sure yes you say 10% is in there, I disagree from what I've seen, but whatever. They also added things that were not in there to start, I don't recall VPR or the InterSense bit being in the original list.

colkai
12-09-2010, 04:49 AM
no, actually they didn't, this is a common misconception,
they said modelling would get the attention first, then animation...
As others have said, how in Hades is my statement about modelling being the focus as misconception when even you state what they said?

Feel free to defend all you want, but as others have stated a HUGE deal was made how modelling had to be done before anything else could be done. Now we find, actually, everything BUT modelling is done, so I am sorry but I feel I have every right to be aggrieved.
I am perfectly aware that folks are happy to future fund Newtek and take whatever is put out regardless of what was stated and what one ends up with in the hope that down the line, LWXX will be something amazing. Obviously you are happy with any changes to the software that may or may not occur and will take whatever features are there and not miss features which were laid out at the start and dropped. Me, not so much, especially in the current economic situation.
So fair to say, we are never going to agree on this development structure and road-map.

I will add however, as a developer of some 3 decades+, I am not oblivious to the nature of coding, however, my rear would be on the line and my pockets empty if I suggested to our clients a product with features X,Y,Z then delivered something which did not have the features I'd laid out.
I can only presume the software game is much more "fluid" in the 3D world than it is in the private business sector.

Kuzey
12-09-2010, 05:04 AM
As I remember it, it was something like modelling for the 1Q, something else (animation?) for 2Q, render engine in 3Q....full product in 4Q. It was vague and it was before the process began.

Yet..I do remember asking, what was the new focus at the start of the each quarter and the impression I got...it's still modelling....but that was during the first year.

The problem, was that the Core concept was released too early, just a few months after 9.6 going gold. HC should have started about now, when they have an actual program to work from and not just a concept...but that's hindsight for ya :)

Going by the comments at the time, I was hoping that Core would have replaced Modeler by release date....I would have been extremely happy with that.

Anyway....a transition period is fine, but it won't look too good if you have LWCore 8 and it's still not a full standalone product...just saying :hey:

Kuzey

artstorm
12-09-2010, 05:14 AM
The problem, was that the Core concept was released too early, just a few months after 9.6 going gold.

Actually, the first Core reveal site (22 Jan 2009) popped up just 2 days after 9.6 went gold (20 Jan 2009).
Which was a bit strange, as 9.6 was a solid release which probably could have generated more sales if it hadn't been announced as product ready to be replaced just after its release. :D

Kuzey
12-09-2010, 05:47 AM
Actually, the first Core reveal site (22 Jan 2009) popped up just 2 days after 9.6 went gold (20 Jan 2009).
Which was a bit strange, as 9.6 was a solid release which probably could have generated more sales if it hadn't been announced as product ready to be replaced just after its release. :D

Haha....I thought it was a bit longer than that....but so true.

Kuzey

Skonk
12-09-2010, 06:05 AM
again, that the feature list is about 10% of what it was is simple false.
i guess i've stated what i think, this discussion seems to be turning into a loop.

10% was me being generous.

Lightwave 10 when it ships, will not even have Core.

Every feature of the original Feature List (as in the feature list presented to us when "Core" was revealed) was a feature of Core.

Since Core isn't included in the release version of Lightwave 10; 100% of the original feature list has effectivly been removed.

Some new features have been added to Layout (such as VPR) which is why I said 10%.

Obviously, LW10 owners will have access to the Beta build of Core but I'm not counting that since it's beta and hasn't yet gone gold.

Once LW10 has shipped, Newtek are pretty much off the hook when it comes to the Core deadline so I wouldn't be supprised it if continued to stay in beta for long after 2011 has come and gone.

"That's fine, we can still use Core even if it stays beta" I hear you say.. but since it's beta Newtek have no obligation to have it in a production ready state.

EDIT:

I agree though that this is likely to just keep going round in circles so I'll try to stop myself from posting any more in this thread :)

Let me just say again though that I still do think LW10 is a good upgrade from 9.6; VPR looks great.

Dispite everything; if I had the money I would be tempted to come back to LW10 (dispite buying once and getting a refund) because I still prefere Lightwave over the other 3D apps I have to use and the changes to Layout look very useful.

Also what I said about Core staying beta for some time.. I really hope I'm proven wrong.

Elmar Moelzer
12-09-2010, 08:38 AM
Lightwave 10 when it ships, will not even have Core.

If I recall, you will still get CORE without having to pay extra, just not now, but later. So you will still get what was promised, just not now, but later.

Bona
12-10-2010, 12:54 AM
A year ago, I was told CORE itself would be the next major upgrade accompany by newer Modeler & Layout ( legacy LW ) to HELP the transition, now one must buy LW10 to find out what's really in CORE.

I don't understand this "buy AB to try B" marketing strategy, if one is not ready for demo, why don't NT separate the upgrade into "LW10 update" and "CORE pre-order"? May be I'm not HARDCORE enough to get it.

BTW, the HC NDA gives me the impression that things gone bad in beta, too bad that no user reviews are allowed to leak, I really hope that's not the case.

erikals
12-10-2010, 01:19 AM
there is no NDA, but NT has asked us to not leak info...
so no, we won't get kicked out of the program, then again, no point in leaking info... (imo)

OnlineRender
12-10-2010, 01:34 AM
there is no NDA, but NT has asked us to not leak info...


yeah and look how well that turned out :2guns:

erikals
12-10-2010, 02:11 AM
worked ok imo...
anyway, not much valuable info in this thread...

colkai
12-10-2010, 02:36 AM
A year ago, I was told CORE itself would be the next major upgrade accompany by newer Modeler & Layout ( legacy LW ) to HELP the transition, now one must buy LW10 to find out what's really in CORE.

I think it's simpler to view it as a flip-flop.
At the start, CORE was God, CORE was the future and LW legacy was dead development wise.
Now, LW10 is the main product and CORE will come along when it does.
How things change again down the line, well, anyones guess, depends who is driving the dev. and their vision for the future.
"Forward looking and subject to change", i.e. don't rely 100% on anything you read now because it is possible it may, or may not, be true come the end. Each one of us has to decide if that works for us or not.

Me, for any future dealings I may have, I'll always be waiting for a demo of the finished product before deciding. It's no good "saving money" off a product you find isn't what you think you're actually buying.
Want a PC with a powerful processor and lots of memory, get a PC with a powerful graphics card and a huge hard disk. :p

For others however, money is not an issue and "wait and see if it's what I want" works, which to be honest, I'd love to be able to do, but my budget isn't that healthy. Aww, heck, lets face it, it's on gorramn life support lately! :D :help:

hrgiger
12-10-2010, 07:00 AM
For others however, money is not an issue and "wait and see if it's what I want" works, which to be honest, I'd love to be able to do, but my budget isn't that healthy.

Actually for me it wasn't so much about money not being an issue as it was I saw it as a chance to upgrade for a lower price then if I had waited. I'm glad I did now because I'm locked into the $395 price for the next 5 upgrades of Lightwave.

I would also say that my decision to upgrade Lightwave also in some small way has become due to a lack of better options. I'd probably go with XSI at least as a companion app, but unfortunately as with all of the other AD applications, pricing puts it a little out of my reach. I don't like the modular approach of C4D, Houdini is not quite as artist friendly as I would like although it is looking nice these days, I still hate the blender interface, and Modo which I do also own won't be full featured for at least another few major upgrades.

Lightwave 10 is a good upgrade, Newtek has put a lot of work into it but some of the features I won't get much use out of. VPR as well as the new linear colorspace workflow is worth the upgrade price for me alone but I'm still in it for CORE and hardcore is supposed to get some news about what's next on that front once 10 is out the door.

colkai
12-10-2010, 07:37 AM
I'd probably go with XSI at least as a companion app, but unfortunately as with all of the other AD applications, pricing puts it a little out of my reach.

Tell me about it, if XSI Foundation was still going, I'd be using that now, very frustrating as I was right on the edge of buying it when it was 'retired'. :(

hrgiger
12-10-2010, 07:42 AM
Yes, life certainly doesn't have it's shortage of should of, could of, would of situations.

-EsHrA-
12-10-2010, 08:20 AM
What a mess!
This is soo typical of NT.

LW being dragged back from the dead when realized (uhuh..) CORE estimates were way off
and now our once beloved LW stuffed with candy CORE features to keep the crowd happy.

where is Wikileaks when u need 'em?!... :)


mlon

OnlineRender
12-10-2010, 09:16 AM
where is Wikileaks when u need 'em?!... :)




In Jail :rock:

Cageman
12-10-2010, 10:49 AM
Now it's just a render engine.

Actually, I've used COREs Bullet dynamics for real production tests and it certanly works for specific things. While the implementation of Bullet is limited at the moment (hence that it can't be used for ALL situations that is related to HBD), I was able to make use of it. Not only that, but the resulting sim was baked to keyframes, sent over to Layout and transfered to Motionbuilder, where I used the Ragdoll dynamics to affect running characters being hit by the tumbling blocks. Within 2-3 hours I had everything assembled in LW10 Layout and could hit the renderbutton, and that is the first time I actually made use of this pipeline and the ragdoll dynamics in Motionbuilder. It worked very well.

Cageman
12-10-2010, 11:00 AM
BTW, the HC NDA gives me the impression that things gone bad in beta, too bad that no user reviews are allowed to leak, I really hope that's not the case.

http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=51582

Look at T4Ds posts. For anyone not familiar with T4D, he has always been very vocal about the limitations and pitfalls regarding LW. When he says that he sense that things have progressed in a good way, it really has. Period. This is obviously regarding LW10 Layout and Modeler.

Regarding CORE, well... it's delayed, but can be used for some things (as I described in my previous post in this thread). The build I used for my production test can still be downloaded from within the HC-forums.

FHL
12-10-2010, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Skonk


A few months back I asked Newtek Europe if they could give me tempory access to the core beta so I could evaluate it because I was in a position at work to upgrade our 40 Lightwave 9 licenses (I was just hoping for a 1 week key or something).

If it looked like it would be useful and wouldn't just complicate things for the students then I would have upgraded all of our licenses.

They said they would see what they could do and get back to me; they never got back to me (what a supprise) and even when I mailed back asking "Has there been any progress...." I got no reply to that either.

End result..... we switched to 3D Studio Max 2010/2011.

Note: I work at a college, which for the last 5 years has been putting students out into the world with experience in using Lightwave 3D... but no longer.

Hello,
I am very sorry that you did not get a reply to your request and I apologize for that.
I will be pleased to arrange an evaluation of LightWave 10 for you and to get you on the Core program.
Please contact me directly so that we can arrange this test and your Core subscription.
You can either email me at the adress below or contact 3D Storm (AKA NewTek Europe)
using the free callback service available on newtek-europe.com home page.

Bona
12-10-2010, 11:08 AM
Thank you for your update Cageman, great to hear that! Do u mind leak us a bit more about stability? ( especially on Mac 64bit, FFX stuff )

Greenlaw
12-10-2010, 11:22 AM
Actually, I've used COREs Bullet dynamics for real production tests and it certanly works for specific things...Within 2-3 hours I had everything assembled in LW10 Layout and could hit the renderbutton, and that is the first time I actually made use of this pipeline and the ragdoll dynamics in Motionbuilder. It worked very well.
Cool! I would really like to see the test if possible. Early on, I played setups of Bullet by other users but haven't had the time to really look into it myself yet. It does look very promising.

I'll have to ask our lead fx guy about it. He's been spending more time with Houdini lately, but I noticed that he still falls back on Lightwave when he needs something done quickly. :)

G.

Titus
12-10-2010, 11:34 AM
Cool! I would really like to see the test if possible. Early on, I played setups of Bullet by other users but haven't had the time to really look into it myself yet. It does look very promising.

I'll have to ask our lead fx guy about it. He's been spending more time with Houdini lately, but I noticed that he still falls back on Lightwave when he needs something done quickly. :)

G.

Blender has Bullet as well. I presume the difference is how much of the API they have implemented. Bullet has a lot of features you can choose to use when integrating to your system. I hope NT goes deeper than Blender, otherwise I'll keep using it in Blender.

Cageman
12-10-2010, 11:39 AM
Cool! I would really like to see the test if possible. Early on, I played setups of Bullet by other users but haven't had the time to really look into it myself yet. It does look very promising.

I have been planning on doing a videotutorial on it, however, I will have to change the content to something not under NDA. :D I just havn't had the time to do it yet though, but I will...

No promises of when I'll get it done though... :)

Kuzey
12-10-2010, 12:29 PM
Is Newtek planing to finalize any current beta feature in Core...in a point upgrade before Core2 is released??

eg...will Bullet be complete, in say...Core1.5, or do you have to wait until Core2 or later?

Kuzey

calilifestyle
12-10-2010, 12:51 PM
I'm officially lost. I knew some time last year what LwCore was going to be. Last year it was 3 apps same 9.6+ with more point bug fixes, layout and modeler with Core 1. With few additions here and there to layout. Now it seems like all of it had drastically changed. I can't tell whats going on any more.
From what i can tell everyone seems to be getting core when it ships. I really don't see how that will work out. I mean groups that bought HC and people that buy LW10. so i do hope it ships before lw11. cuz then your going to have 3 groups waiting for their free Core shipment. Also the group that bought fiber factory get some kind of upgrade. So this sounds scary. It sounds very toxic

Kuzey
12-10-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm officially lost. I knew some time last year what LwCore was going to be. Last year it was 3 apps same 9.6+ with more point bug fixes, layout and modeler with Core 1. With few additions here and there to layout. Now it seems like all of it had drastically changed. I can't tell whats going on any more.
From what i can tell everyone seems to be getting core when it ships. I really don't see how that will work out. I mean groups that bought HC and people that buy LW10. so i do hope it ships before lw11. cuz then your going to have 3 groups waiting for their free Core shipment. Also the group that bought fiber factory get some kind of upgrade. So this sounds scary. It sounds very toxic

I was thinking about that too :hey:

How long will the Core1 release be delayed and how will it affect the LW11/Core2 program. Will they start LW11/core2 after Core1 is released or will they be working on both simultaneously...like 9.6.1 & LW10/Core?

Kuzey

Cageman
12-10-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm officially lost. I knew some time last year what LwCore was going to be. Last year it was 3 apps same 9.6+ with more point bug fixes, layout and modeler with Core 1. With few additions here and there to layout. Now it seems like all of it had drastically changed. I can't tell whats going on any more.
From what i can tell everyone seems to be getting core when it ships. I really don't see how that will work out. I mean groups that bought HC and people that buy LW10. so i do hope it ships before lw11. cuz then your going to have 3 groups waiting for their free Core shipment. Also the group that bought fiber factory get some kind of upgrade. So this sounds scary. It sounds very toxic

Actually, all people that upgrade to LW10 will become HC-members, up until a certain date when NT no longer accept HC-members. I believe this date is communicated to be when CORE v1.0 ships. Until CORE v1.0 ships, the upgradeprice is $495 and those people will also become HC-members. I think NT will give a heads up on that date so people who are still on the fence can get a last minute chance, so to speak.

Those of us who went in early on have paid $395, so I'm not sure what you mean by "toxic".

Cageman
12-10-2010, 05:24 PM
I was thinking about that too :hey:

How long will the Core1 release be delayed and how will it affect the LW11/Core2 program. Will they start LW11/core2 after Core1 is released or will they be working on both simultaneously...like 9.6.1 & LW10/Core?

Kuzey

Ask someone from NT through PM, email or phone. My guess is that you have to wait and see though...

:)

Kuzey
12-11-2010, 04:26 AM
Ask someone from NT through PM, email or phone. My guess is that you have to wait and see though...

:)

Haha....I think I'll have to wait too. Then again, NT staff are known to frequent their own forum...from time to time :D

Hrgiger has mentioned that HC members will get some news after LW10 is released. I presume...they'll make a comment on that then and not anytime sooner.

Kuzey

cresshead
12-11-2010, 06:38 AM
i'm on HC but havn't tried any updates for quite sometime..i've never bothered with updates to layout as yet but VPR does look appealing for layout...beta/alpha core was okay but i think i have spent more productive time with blender 2.5 alpha 1..looking forward i'm yet to be convinced Core will ever get to be finished, since Jay left the focus has done a 180 degree swing back to lightwave with Rob's vision to move lightwave forward toward a better newer version for studio's looking for a updated VAD app.

that's my overly simplistic view but i think i'm in the ballpark for it being the case.

Bona
12-12-2010, 02:34 AM
Yea, I've been testing 2.5+ for quite some time too, very enjoyable experience, but the lack of internal GI renderer and the incomplete hair solution stopped me from replacing LW with it. I have a strong feeling that when CORE is called complete, it'll be like Blender+Modo with LW's rendering ability.

QFS
12-14-2010, 01:53 PM
Downloads for the LW10 beta and CORE have never been available through the user account. For specific info on how to download 10, you should look in the official Hard CORE threads. As a registered user, you will find the Hard CORE section is listed near the bottom of the forums list. If you don't see it there, you should contact Newtek's support department about gaining access.

G.

I have a Hardcore membership so how do I contact Newteks support? (Through the forums or through the registration system to get access to that part of the forum?)

Philbert
12-14-2010, 07:19 PM
Look in the top middle of this page at Customer Care, in there you'll find Customer Service.

Edit: Actually on the forum that goes to a slightly different page than it does on the main site. Here it is from the main site:
http://www.newtek.com/customer_care.php

GraphXs
12-14-2010, 09:58 PM
I really don't understand why anyone would jump ship during the beginning of HC. Such a small price tag for a software update that will be 2+ years in development, maybe even hit 3 years before we would have to pay for the next update at a "locked" price!

I understand it was a rough ride: Core was never really ready and needs alot more time in the oven. Old LW was just getting tiny updates until Rob shifted it back to LW to gives us workflow enhancments (mainly in layout) and better IO to work with other software. Yeah, I wan't modeler to get some love really bad, but hey we still have third party tools that make it better and give us features that imo are better than some other packages.

I'm happy with this new direction, and if this didn't happen (imo) Core would still be dealing with major delays and workflow issues, or possibly be released with half-baked tools sending LW artist running out the door!

A Big Thanks to Newtek! Rob has given more life to LW and has showen that it indeed has more life in it. For the small amount of time Rob came on board and what Newtek achieved is nothing less than amazing! If they keep this up we will have great software updates, with features we want at a steal!
...Now, please, please give modeler some love, and get back to making Core a new start with some next gen features!

Until then I'm glad we have amazing third parties making plugins like Turblance 4D, LW Cad, etc. I thought LW could never get tools like that!

tyrot
12-15-2010, 05:22 PM
Until then I'm glad we have amazing third parties making plugins like Turblance 4D, LW Cad, etc. I thought LW could never get tools like that!

exactly my feelings......

BTW i m not on HC .. i was not happy the way of Core idea so i didnt upgrade... But after Rob takes over things have become more Lightwave oriented... i ll upgrade it very soon.

So please do not burn me for asking this... but do we really need Core? If there can be fluid dynamics in LW, if new tools can be added (a japanese guy almost breaking every Layout rules with lattice deformer, weight painting etc)) and if there will be something like VPR.....why not integrating bullet directly to 10...leaving CORE behind...

best

Philbert
12-15-2010, 09:05 PM
I'm no programmer, but as I understand it LW's SDK is not nearly as wide open as CORE's, CORE's gives third parties all of the same tools CORE itself was written with, so any plugin can have 100% connection to any other part of the app. This is evident in current LightWave with FPrime, how it can't talk to any other plugins or use LW shaders.

I don't know about 10 but I think current LW also has limitations on how many points / polys in can handle.

A Mejias
12-17-2010, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Skonk



Hello,
I am very sorry that you did not get a reply to your request and I apologize for that.
I will be pleased to arrange an evaluation of LightWave 10 for you and to get you on the Core program.
Please contact me directly so that we can arrange this test and your Core subscription.
You can either email me at the adress below or contact 3D Storm (AKA NewTek Europe)
using the free callback service available on newtek-europe.com home page.

You're a bit late mate. They already "switched to 3D Studio Max".

A Mejias
12-17-2010, 01:49 AM
because of the magnitude of writing a 3D app from scratch, any 3D app, it's not just simply to snap the fingers and say "we'll follow this road map, there will be no big changes"

i knew this would happen, and so should others, NT also said that Core was not for everyone.

they failed on the communication part though, big time perhaps.

but where did they say modeling tools would get attention to a large degree?
i've never ever seen this stated, i don't think that is true.
though it might have seemed like that was what was being said.

No user is making the claim that 3D development is easy, but if you watch that reveal video again and reread many of the claims about the SDK, Core development sounded like it was going to be much faster than LightWave ever was.

They absolutely DID say it! They said that Core would concentrate firstly and mainly on modeling tools and that animation and rendering would be there too. They said that Core would only need Layout and Modeler for some features and functions -- such as bone deformation, hair, volumetrics, but that modeling would be the foundation.

They all so said it before Core was ever mentioned in public. Way back during LightWave 9.0 presales and beta. Modeler bug fixes, workflow improvements, and tool consolidation were stated as upcoming features for LightWave 9.0. After 2-3 years of betas and updates we got no Modeler improvements and they told us that even though they promised it we would have to wait for the next "ordinal upgrade" (read paid upgrade) to get those fixes, upgrades, and features. Now it looks like we'll have to pay AGAIN!

In any case it's not a problem of software development, it's a problem of customer relations and marketing.

I was always taught "If you can't do it don't say it. If you say it, then you better do it." This is one lesson that they never seem to learn.

calilifestyle
12-17-2010, 11:56 AM
:thumbsup: AMejias, very true.

i mean if your going to have a large group of people waiting for core 1. Either those that have bought into it, or just plan out waiting for the next gen app, newtek promised; In their Ustream announcement, not forgetting that pdf they released. So at some point in time no one will be buying. just alot of people waiting around.
In any case i really do hope they figure something out. :thumbsup:

bassmanjam
12-17-2010, 12:36 PM
So at some point in time no one will be buying. just alot of people waiting around.
In any case i really do hope they figure something out. :thumbsup:

Status: waiting... before, I didn't have the funds to go HC. Now I'm looking at my options. I'd be more than happy to keep supporting Newtek, but I don't get a clear message of intent or direction. I don't think I have this issue with any other software companies.

colkai
12-18-2010, 03:10 AM
They absolutely DID say it!

....

In any case it's not a problem of software development, it's a problem of customer relations and marketing.

I was always taught "If you can't do it don't say it. If you say it, then you better do it." This is one lesson that they never seem to learn.

Precisely.
I am a developer myself, I know coding is NOT easy, well sometimes yes, sometimes "easy" is the hardest bit to do. :p

However, this is about offering one thing and then doing a switch-a-roo.

If LW10 is nearing release and Newtek have already made plain that NO new features are going in once release date hits, then it seems LW11 is where modeller will, allegedly, finally, get focus.

Of course, this is "forward looking and subject to change" as they pretty much had promised us a revolution for the next release, (i.e. LW10), focused on modelling and that has plainly NOT come to pass. So pinch of healthy skepticism when it comes to what we will theoretically be getting in LW11 I feel is warranted.


It's down to Newtek now to deliver the product they made so many boasts and claims about. If and when they do deliver said product, is, in my mind, very much subject to discussion. Right now, after many years of trust and faith, I find myself in the camp of "I will believe it when I see it" in regards to Lightwave.

The really sad bit is, I *never* imagined I'd be one of those people saying that but even a loyal users viewpoint is "subject to change". :(

Really wishing I'd invested in XSI Foundation when I dithered with the CORE/LW10 upgrade, it was always going to be one or the other. Foolish "brand loyalty" hit me there. Ahh well, one lives, one learns. :foreheads

Philbert
12-18-2010, 03:21 AM
Perhaps CORE will get it's modeling tools in like they said, it's not close to release yet, but still before LW 11.

hrgiger
12-18-2010, 08:37 AM
If LW10 is nearing release and Newtek have already made plain that NO new features are going in once release date hits, then it seems LW11 is where modeller will, allegedly, finally, get focus.


That's not necessarily a logical conclusion to the CORE reveal debacle. First and foremost, the whole 'focus' on modeling was only implied towards the first release of CORE in March of 2009(as in the first alpha build). Things like the rendering, surfacing, animation, etc... were to come later that year. There was never meant to be a final release which focused on modeler/modeling tools.

Secondly, since Rob Powers has come on board, priorities have been shifted and agendas rewritten. He has stated himself that he can't speak for things that were said before he came on board. Which if translated to me says, everything that guy said (Jay Roth) is irrelevant. That's not a criticism mind you, I think Rob has given us a realistic view of what needed to be and what could be accomplished for the Lightwave 10 release and it looks like it will get out the door on time. He has also given us more detailed information then we got before, our hardcore updates now include videos demonstrating new features in Lightwave for example. I'm sure some of you will be glad to see some of the recent additions that haven't been revealed yet to the public coming in Lightwave 10.

My issue has been and continues to be that I bought in after the CORE reveal with a future direction of Lightwave that now is in question. I was investing in a vision for Lightwave which was to be an integrated, node based, non-destructible application built on a modern codebase that could take advantage of the newest technologies available. Supposedly, CORE is still the ultimate destination of Lightwave, but I dont' know if the above description will still be it's vision. They have since removed the technical page about what Lightwave CORE is which to me was a brilliant vision of what it would be. For those who didn't get a chance to read it, it described an application where every component of Lightwave could be represented as a node and that every node could communicate with other nodes. So you could in essence use a color node to drive a simulation node which could still be yet driving another node. They also talk about a integrated dynamics environment where all forces could affect other forces. It covered many other areas as well including that third party developers would be using the same SDK as the creators of CORE so that plug-ins would be fully integrated but I think the idea of all components of Lightwave being able to communicate was the most exciting part. The only information I can find on CORE at all and it's quite limited is here: http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/faq.php and nodes are not even mentioned. I hope they are not thinking of removing the nodal achitecture of CORE as the connection editor was to be the heart of it all. Now that page is just talking about the Lightwave 10 release so maybe it just wasn't relevant to mention there. I'm just concerned about what changes they might be contemplating with CORE. Will it still have nodes for everything (or at all)? Will it still have a modifier stack? Will everything still be animatable? We're supposed to be hearing about what's next for CORE after Lightwave 10 is released so maybe I'll know more then.

I have little interest in them further enhancing modeler or layout. In all honesty, for me personally, without CORE, Lightwave 10's layout and modeler do not offer much that I didn't already have with Lightwave 9.6. As I've mentioned, VPR is nice, the new linear colorspace workflow is very nice and the openGL improvents are good but I'm not sure I would have upgraded if I had known this would be it (and yes, of course there are more features in Lightwave 10 then what I"ve mentioned but the others will not affect my workflow personally). There's really nothing new about modeler at all except for some I/O and user interface additions. If CORE is released next year and the bullet physic implementation is solid and the UV and modeling tools are good, then that will make it worth upgrading. That and locking in my upgrades at $395. But I just hope that the next development cycle for Lightwave 11 sees much more focus on CORE since, again, supposedly is the future of Lightwave.

colkai
12-18-2010, 10:04 AM
A very excellent post HR and points raised which I think will not be simply a POV that you and I share. It can come in handy that "forward looking and subject to change" clause, but it means that a user has to therefore, be vary wary of "trusting" what is said as being anything like what they will end up with.

Maybe I've just become jaded with the whole debacle from start to end. Much was made of Jay coming on board, he leaves Rob joins 100% turn-about. Leaves me wary of future "changes" and any turn-abouts they may bring. Call me cynical and pessimistic by all means, you would not be wrong.

Nicolas Jordan
12-18-2010, 10:23 AM
For all we know they may end up extracting code from the program we know as Core and implement it into the old Lightwave and simply skin the old Lightwave with a nice QT UI and call it Core instead. If they take a totally different development direction as long as we still are getting a program called Core we will never know the difference. It seems this is what they did to get VPR into Layout anyway for the most part.

Lewis
12-18-2010, 10:27 AM
For all we know they may end up extracting code from the program we know as Core and implement it into the old Lightwave and simply skin the old Lightwave with a nice QT UI.......

Yeah right :D. If that was so "easy" why would they start over from scratch in first place ;).

Philbert
12-19-2010, 02:42 AM
So I guess we'll be getting 5 or 6 preview videos this week? I can only assume they were saving them all up to give us at once. :D :devil:

OOZZEE
12-23-2010, 08:59 AM
ok, i'm thinking about it... a big maybe.... but some things are still not 100% clear and I think the first thing Rob should do is CLARIFY !!! make a sincere attempt to win people back by really ensuring that nothing is left out to be questioned over and over in a forum post...

example - this from the FAQ page... the question says "get new" and the answer says "receive preview" - see below.

Will LightWave HardCORE members continue to get new software builds after LightWave 10 ships?

Yes, HardCORE members will continue to receive preview software builds (two to three per year).

- although I would like to believe all the answers from the users and I trust you are providing info to the best of your knowledge and it's surely very honest, It's NOT from the horses mouth!!! And as you can see many are still not understanding what should be a basic.... you pay this, you get this, not that !!

and why the heck would any company not show what's in developement to their existing customers ??? they are the ones that will likely give money to upgrade if you show them the goods ??? very very weird and whomever came up with that concept would never work for me !! but hey what do I know !!

but I do know I only stopped upgrading because I didn't feel the love from NT !!!

lardbros
12-23-2010, 01:10 PM
You stopped upgrading because you didn't feel the love from Newtek? What do you use instead now?
You CERTAINLY won't feel the love from Autodesk. We found a MAJOR bug in 3ds max, where it won't load on machines with over 18 cores... it just crashed. That was 3 years ago, their answer was to remove the hair plugin that caused it. (We wouldn't have got any help if we hadn't begged, we had accidentally not bought any support). This bug has only JUST been fixed in a hotfix, last week. Nightmare!

Matt
12-24-2010, 02:10 AM
Maybe I've just become jaded with the whole debacle from start to end. Much was made of Jay coming on board, he leaves Rob joins 100% turn-about. Leaves me wary of future "changes" and any turn-abouts they may bring

Here's the thing, it's not a 100% turn-around, it is a re-aligned plan based on more realistic deliverables. Also, as CORE like any large scale application will take some time. Previously LW wasn't even going to receive much attention, but even with no work done on LW and everyone on CORE it STILL wouldn't be ready in a year, that was totally unrealistic (and naive) and should never have been suggested or hinted at.

As LW is still very much relevant in studio pipelines using it, it made sense to update it in parallel to CORE, the old phrase, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" comes to mind.

The ultimate plan hasn't changed, CORE will still be the future, what changed was the decision not to kill off the existing product that is still making money, and that to me was absolutely the right decision.

colkai
12-24-2010, 03:41 AM
To be frank, I think things may have gone a lot better if Mr Roth had never appeared on the scene, I likely be more inclined to be a bit more sympathetic rather than cynical.
That said, unless LW10 / this release has any outstanding modeller changes, then it still falls to Newtek to actually deliver anything like they promise in future as far I am concerned.
I'm not interested in new shiny features when fundamentals are still not being addressed after several years.
Until I see a demo if LW that bring in the *native* capabilities of modelling that fall to 3rd parties now (and have done for a long time), I think any viewing I have of Lw will remain simply as a demo.
Upfront payment for a product I am sold which may or may not have features I am told it will get is no longer a luxury I can afford.
Maybe if I win the lottery, I can become as blase about throwing money at it as others can be, but not until a miracle happens on the income front! :(

calilifestyle
12-24-2010, 04:55 AM
In 2011, when an updated version of LightWave 10 ships with Modeler, Layout and CORE together,

that quote came from the LW10 update.. I'm still blown away by that. I mean i remember everyone wanted Newtek to merge Layout and modeler. Its crazy that sometime in 2011 lw10 wil be 3 apps. man i know most people work with pipelines. But how many can say their main App is a pipeline of it's own.

cresshead
12-24-2010, 08:57 AM
that quote came from the LW10 update.. I'm still blown away by that. I mean i remember everyone wanted Newtek to merge Layout and modeler. Its crazy that sometime in 2011 lw10 wil be 3 apps. man i know most people work with pipelines. But how many can say their main App is a pipeline of it's own.

yeh on the face of it ....it does look abit silly:agree:

i don't think Core will do much in version 1.0 so it'll be 99% same as usual modeler+layout

Unless Rob kicks Core in a new direction...which he may just do8/

Philbert
12-24-2010, 12:52 PM
I just noticed the NewTek store now lists LightWave 10, not 9.6 with a 10 upgrade.

geothefaust
12-24-2010, 02:10 PM
You stopped upgrading because you didn't feel the love from Newtek? What do you use instead now?

I've moved to Messiah for rigging, soft bodies, animation, rendering, and soon Modo for modeling. I've realized that, a lot of the problems that seem to arise, are caused by internal strife at NT and not from some external force as some people seem to think.



You CERTAINLY won't feel the love from Autodesk. We found a MAJOR bug in 3ds max, where it won't load on machines with over 18 cores... it just crashed. That was 3 years ago, their answer was to remove the hair plugin that caused it. (We wouldn't have got any help if we hadn't begged, we had accidentally not bought any support). This bug has only JUST been fixed in a hotfix, last week. Nightmare!

NT doesn't fix bugs that quickly either. They still need to fix many of their tools, I recall in 2008 & 2009 reporting a good number of modeling bugs which were said to be getting fixed in the next version (which is now dubbed LW10) that aren't getting any "love" at all.

To be honest, I'd rather deal with AD at this point than NT. AD will not release update notes/info, features, etc., until they are well and ready. NT on the other hand, will say one thing, and then do another thing entirely (ie. Modeling tools being the focus, and then flip flopping to render stuff (again!)), and than when they do so, get all uppity with users when we call them on it, like they did us some big favour. AD will give what they say and say what they give.

The problem is that NT management drops the ball over and over, and can't stick to their guns. Wait until Rob gets the pooch screw just like Jay did, LW will be in worse shambles than it is now.

Time to move on. :devil:

archijam
12-24-2010, 05:39 PM
Aw come on guys, getting a bit melodramatic in here :)

geothefaust
12-24-2010, 06:46 PM
Aw come on guys, getting a bit melodramatic in here :)

Just statin' the truth. No harm in that. :)

COBRASoft
12-24-2010, 08:55 PM
Rob clearly stated what his vision was and why he made some decisions. He also stated that not everybody would like this new idea, but somebody had to make the decision.

And yes, a lot has shifted, changed, rotated since Rob came the decisiontaker. I'm not happy with everything that's happened, but I understand the why and when. LW10 gives a future for the people needing LW today and tomorrow. LW CORE will give a future to those and other people, all be it later than hoped and expected.

As a HC member, I really have the feeling NT is listening a lot more and better to its users than before.

Let's all enjoy the holidays and look forward to LW in 2011!

Philbert
12-24-2010, 09:21 PM
Cheers to that!

archijam
12-25-2010, 02:38 AM
The Core is dead, long live Core! ;)

(it's a UK thing ...)

hrgiger
12-25-2010, 04:39 AM
The Core is dead, long live Core! ;)

(it's a UK thing ...)

God save the CORE (its a sex pistols thing)

EmperorPete
12-25-2010, 07:43 PM
I mean i remember everyone wanted Newtek to merge Layout and modeler
I didn't. I never have. I prefer Layout & Modeler as separate programs.
I have to say, at this point I have absolutely no idea any more what I'll get if I pay for LW10. It feels like it changes every few weeks.

Bona
12-26-2010, 04:34 AM
I'd prefer Layout and Modeler as one, don't want to go back and forth for minor changes anymore. If they're going to be 2(3) apps for a long time, I hope there'll be Layout tools for changing materials of ploys and moving points in morphs, I'm not in HC, may be they're in 10 already :D

Happy Holidays!

Greenlaw
12-26-2010, 09:01 AM
I don't mind the two programs being separate, but I wish Layout had at least the basic mesh editing tools like point and lasso selection, translation, rotation, scale, and the magnet tool. In fact, I would happily give up ALL of the current existing 'Modeler' tools in Layout for just these capabilities. That, and the ability to select a morph map and edit it while testing joint deformations.

The free LayoutMeshEdit plug-in demonstrated that some of this was possible in Layout. All that was missing was the Magnet tool and the ability to edit morph maps in Layout. This sort of thing should have been standard in Layout ten years ago.

G.

Andrewstopheles
12-26-2010, 11:58 AM
I believe that the change in direction was the right decision for the company, but not for the users.
Why? They can sell more licenses to studios with the changes to Lightwave 10. Generalists and hobbyists see no real improvements.
My personal experience:
I stopped using HC builds from build 2057 and on since it crashes so often I can't get any use out of it. Build 2067 was equally crashy on my machine.
CORE is still unuseable.
From what I can tell I cannot use Lightwave 10 for more than 5 minutes without a crash, even in Modeler.
I'm sure the crashiness will get worked out before release, or shortly thereafter, but I can't do anything I couldn't do with 9.6. The linear workflow, I guess, is good. VPR looks like it could be fantastic but I can't use it without frequent crashes.
So, as a generalist, I find my upgrade money could have been better spent on something I can use. LWCAD, for example.
Again, I think Newtek made the decision they had to make. I feel that it cost me, because I never got the CORE I was sold, and I have nothing to show for it.
Long live Lightwave 9.6! haha

Andrewstopheles
12-26-2010, 12:03 PM
Where can I find LayoutMeshEdit? Can't find it on Flay.

Greenlaw
12-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Where can I find LayoutMeshEdit? Can't find it on Flay.

Go here: http://www.3dcel.jp/

...and then scroll all the way down to 2010-05-05

I used this plug-in at work to assist with shaping a mesh for camera mapping and it's almost ideal for that. A magnet tool would complete it for this use.

G.

Cageman
12-26-2010, 03:11 PM
To be honest, I'd rather deal with AD at this point than NT. AD will not release update notes/info, features, etc., until they are well and ready. NT on the other hand, will say one thing, and then do another thing entirely (ie. Modeling tools being the focus, and then flip flopping to render stuff (again!)), and than when they do so, get all uppity with users when we call them on it, like they did us some big favour. AD will give what they say and say what they give.

While I can understand your sentiment regarding alot of stuff in LW, you will have a hard time finding a cost-effective renderengine that beats LW for price/performance/features/number of rendernodes per license.

$495 is a pretty good price to pay to upgrade a pretty damn solid renderengine that comes with 999 rendernodes without extra cost.

:)

scratch33
12-26-2010, 03:28 PM
Go here: http://www.3dcel.jp/
Hi,

I don't understand, where can we download this plugins?

Thank you

Orimar
12-26-2010, 04:30 PM
hi,

i don't understand, where can we download this plugins?

Thank you




go here: http://www.3dcel.jp/

...and then scroll all the way down to 2010-05-05

g.

The Win32 and MacUB download link is under the 2009-05-19 date.

.o.

Greenlaw
12-26-2010, 04:33 PM
Win version in blog entry for 2009-05-19, Mac version in blog entry for 2009-05-05. Sorry for the confusion.

To use this plug-in, add it and make a button for it on your Layout menu, select an object and then click the button. A panel with editing options will appear. If you're familiar with Modeler, it should be easy to figure out. BTW, I think it's x32 only.

G.

Edit: I need to wake up before posting. The info above just corrected.

geothefaust
12-26-2010, 11:12 PM
While I can understand your sentiment regarding alot of stuff in LW, you will have a hard time finding a cost-effective renderengine that beats LW for price/performance/features/number of rendernodes per license.

$495 is a pretty good price to pay to upgrade a pretty damn solid renderengine that comes with 999 rendernodes without extra cost.

:)

I beg to differ in price/performance/features. Messiah is doing more than fine against LWs render engine. And last I checked my network doesn't have 999 render nodes, but alas it only has 4. I suspect I wont be needing them anytime in the near future. Since I'm not a company, but a mere generalist, I wont be using that many nodes any time soon anyway, so I think I'm doing just fine with out LW thus far. ;)

lino.grandi
12-27-2010, 02:51 AM
.

Wait until Rob gets the pooch screw just like Jay did, LW will be in worse shambles than it is now.



I think Rob has finally put LW and Core development in the right perspective.

He's been working for just 7 months, and I've seen big changes.

Rob is a very direct and clever person, and a very good artist with a huge experience.

I'm really happy of LightWave10. Both VPR and some rigging improvements just have speeded up my every day work a lot.

And I'm excited thinking of what Core is going to become.

I have to thank Rob, the whole development team and above all Newtek for what they are doing.

I really can't even think of jumping to other softwares now that LightWave has finally found the best leader and people. LW10 is shining for me, as the future of LW and Core are.

nessent
12-27-2010, 04:52 AM
I think Rob has finally put LW and Core development in the right perspective.

He's been working for just 7 months, and I've seen big changes.

Rob is a very direct and clever person, and a very good artist with a huge experience.

I'm really happy of LightWave10. Both VPR and some rigging improvements just have speeded up my every day work a lot.

And I'm excited thinking of what Core is going to become.

I have to thank Rob, the whole development team and above all Newtek for what they are doing.

I really can't even think of jumping to other softwares now that LightWave has finally found the best leader and people. LW10 is shining for me, as the future of LW and Core are.



hi - hi :)

in what way is the rigging better in LW 10, can you shed some insight on that for me please.

(cuz you know your word on this subject matter is gold... gold lino, gold : )

Matt
12-27-2010, 04:52 AM
i think rob has finally put lw and core development in the right perspective.

He's been working for just 7 months, and i've seen big changes.

Rob is a very direct and clever person, and a very good artist with a huge experience.

I'm really happy of lightwave10. Both vpr and some rigging improvements just have speeded up my every day work a lot.

And i'm excited thinking of what core is going to become.

I have to thank rob, the whole development team and above all newtek for what they are doing.

I really can't even think of jumping to other softwares now that lightwave has finally found the best leader and people. Lw10 is shining for me, as the future of lw and core are.

+10

-EsHrA-
12-27-2010, 05:40 AM
"$495 is a pretty good price to pay to upgrade a pretty damn solid renderengine that comes with 999 rendernodes without extra cost."

but...you have the engine allready dont you?..

so what's updated or enhanced in the engine?..
did it get a speed boost?.. and im not talking vpr.


mlon

Cageman
12-27-2010, 07:17 PM
"$495 is a pretty good price to pay to upgrade a pretty damn solid renderengine that comes with 999 rendernodes without extra cost."

but...you have the engine allready dont you?..

so what's updated or enhanced in the engine?..
did it get a speed boost?.. and im not talking vpr.


mlon

First of all, we have Linear Colorspace Workflow, which recalculates your sRGB images, colorpickers, lights etc to work correctly within Linear colorspace as that is the way the renderengine works. So, forget about gamma correcting your photoshop painted textures before loading them into LW, forget about doing gamma correction on textures in Image Editor, forget about having to use colorpickers that converted the selected colour from sRGB to Linear, forget about overblown renders with nuclear hotspots, forget about doing compensations with FP Gamma on output and so on. This alone will result in much more stable and predictable renders, GI included. This implementation also supports custom LUTs.

There are a bunch of new renderbuffers as well, such as Normal, Occlusion and GI and some more...

probiner
12-27-2010, 09:02 PM
First of all, we have Linear Colorspace Workflow, which recalculates your sRGB images, colorpickers, lights etc to work correctly within Linear colorspace as that is the way the renderengine works. So, forget about gamma correcting your photoshop painted textures before loading them into LW, forget about doing gamma correction on textures in Image Editor, forget about having to use colorpickers that converted the selected colour from sRGB to Linear, forget about overblown renders with nuclear hotspots, forget about doing compensations with FP Gamma on output and so on. This alone will result in much more stable and predictable renders, GI included. This implementation also supports custom LUTs.

There are a bunch of new renderbuffers as well, such as Normal, Occlusion and GI and some more...

Yeah that sounds like one of those things that once you work with it on a regular basis you ask yourself why the heck weren't you working like that before.

artstorm
12-28-2010, 02:20 AM
but it used x3 more ram right? and if you do it in nodes and image filter the old 9.6 way it doesnt right? or am i wrong?

You are right, using the old free plugins is much more memory efficient. And have some more options and possibilities.
The drawbacks with the old method is that you have to do it per image/color and not as a scene wide setting, and also that you can't see it in OpenGL.

RebelHill
12-28-2010, 05:04 AM
some rigging improvements just have speeded up my every day work a lot.

Rigging improvements?!?!?.. Are you kidding me?!?!

Rig evaluations are running 25% slower than 9.6 and deformations are going 30% slower than 9.6.

Thats not an improvement to my mind... its a DISASTER.

TeZzy
12-28-2010, 06:17 AM
what? are you serious?

if that is true, our studio won't be enjoying the ride with LW10. We are doing more and more character stuff....if rigs are reacting even slower than 9.6 that would be very bad.

Cageman
12-28-2010, 06:22 AM
but it used x3 more ram right? and if you do it in nodes and image filter the old 9.6 way it doesnt right? or am i wrong?

Well, it used to consume alot more ram, but that was because 8-bit textures were automaticly converted to float when loaded into a scene. You now have a checkbox option in CS panel to dissable this function.

Cageman
12-28-2010, 06:26 AM
what? are you serious?

if that is true, our studio won't be enjoying the ride with LW10. We are doing more and more character stuff....if rigs are reacting even slower than 9.6 that would be very bad.

I don't see a problem using LW9.6 for animation and LW10 for lighting/shading/rendering. Heck... I even don't see a problem using Maya or Motionbuilder for animation, and do lighting/shading/rendering in LW10.

TeZzy
12-28-2010, 06:32 AM
It actually makes more sense when you animate maya or motionbuilder then rendering in lw10. But 9.6 for animating and then 10 for rendering is just backwards and inconvenient.

Matt
12-28-2010, 06:58 AM
Rigging improvements?!?!?.. Are you kidding me?!?!

Rig evaluations are running 25% slower than 9.6 and deformations are going 30% slower than 9.6.

Thats not an improvement to my mind... its a DISASTER.

Have reported this to the devs.

But can you please FogBugz this and provide some simple content that shows the slow down.

rwhunt99
12-28-2010, 07:12 AM
I'm enjoying LW10 and I don't intend to be enjoying Core for at least another 4 years. I am a realist, I know the history of Newtek. Quality 3D apps don't grow on trees and that's why one company bought up all the big ones. They wouldn't waste their money if that wasn't the case.

I can understand everyone's frustration at changes of direction, focus etc. that is a fact of life. If you people didn't care about LW (it's just a tool) you wouldn't be posting and complaining, but you do, so you might as well admit it. You need to take the bad as well as the good and in your hearts there is hope for the future and until they make that brain - software link workable you just have to accept this is not a perfect world.

Now kids, go out there and create something!

RebelHill
12-28-2010, 07:12 AM
Have reported this to the devs.

But can you please FogBugz this and provide some simple content that shows the slow down.

Cheers matt... it has been mentioned a few times during the beta phase, though. Also not to forget that there was a HUGE drop in performance for rigs between 9.3 to 9.6, which LOADS of people pointed out, and that never got much of a performance clawback either.

I'll supply some stuff once ive gotten round to nailing down where the issues are occurring (there's some behaviours affecting hierarchies, etc), so Ill try to give y'all some clues as to where to start looking once my experiments are nailed for possible causes.

One thing I can point to straight away however, is that there was only a small dropoff in rig evaluation for most of 10, but as soon as the the new controls for SAI (to mimic follower) and texture was added, performance dropped off a cliff.

In the meantime, you can take...

http://www.rebelhill.net/downloads/LW-FBX.zip
http://www.rebelhill.net/downloads/RH_Adam.zip
http://www.rebelhill.net/downloads/Zulu.zip

Load em up in 9.6, and then in 10... just hit play and see the difference in frame rate.

Matt
12-28-2010, 07:24 AM
Lemme check these ...

Matt
12-28-2010, 08:06 AM
Cheers matt... it has been mentioned a few times during the beta phase, though. Also not to forget that there was a HUGE drop in performance for rigs between 9.3 to 9.6, which LOADS of people pointed out, and that never got much of a performance clawback either.

I'll supply some stuff once ive gotten round to nailing down where the issues are occurring (there's some behaviours affecting hierarchies, etc), so Ill try to give y'all some clues as to where to start looking once my experiments are nailed for possible causes.

One thing I can point to straight away however, is that there was only a small dropoff in rig evaluation for most of 10, but as soon as the the new controls for SAI (to mimic follower) and texture was added, performance dropped off a cliff.

In the meantime, you can take...

http://www.rebelhill.net/downloads/LW-FBX.zip
http://www.rebelhill.net/downloads/RH_Adam.zip
http://www.rebelhill.net/downloads/Zulu.zip

Load em up in 9.6, and then in 10... just hit play and see the difference in frame rate.

None of these are animated, they're just static rigs, or am I missing something?

Out of interest, how are you measuring performance?

Cageman
12-28-2010, 08:46 AM
It actually makes more sense when you animate maya or motionbuilder then rendering in lw10. But 9.6 for animating and then 10 for rendering is just backwards and inconvenient.

Is it?

It is VERY easy to load an LW9.6 lws-file into LW10 while working with MotionBuilder or Maya usually is a much more involved process, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

geo_n
12-28-2010, 08:54 AM
In relation to rigs and deformation being slower in lw 10, maybe someone can write a plugin that will do the opposite of t4d viewport toggle, shaded, wireframe, etc.
http://www.thomas4d.com/html/lightwave.html
It should toggle the selected object to change viewport display state instantly by kbshortcut, t4d plugin toggles the unselected objects, which is equally useful btw.
Anyway when I try to pose characters it slows down the pace when I click the tabs in each window to change from wireframe to texture, etc. Modeller has numeric viewport config but layout I dont think it has.

geo_n
12-28-2010, 08:59 AM
Have reported this to the devs.

But can you please FogBugz this and provide some simple content that shows the slow down.

Can you check maestro as well? :D Demo version and content is in http://www.stillwaterpictures.com/maestro/

Greenlaw
12-28-2010, 09:12 AM
Just be care where and how you import the FBX. If you import the FBX to LW 10 using Valkyrie, you won't be able to open that LW scene in 9.6.x or earlier; 9.6.x and earlier versions will ask for motion modifiers that are only available to 10. If you import FBX to LW 10, it's pretty much a one way street.

However, if you import the FBX to 9.6 as Cageman suggests, you should be okay though. (I use 9.6.x's Valkyrie; it seems better suited for Animeeple if you use a few workarounds. Cageman uses the 'legacy' FBX plugins, which work better with Motion Builder.)

It sounds like users of MB 2011 may be having better luck with FBX when using LW 10 exclusively.

G.

RebelHill
12-28-2010, 11:26 AM
None of these are animated, they're just static rigs, or am I missing something?

Out of interest, how are you measuring performance?

they dont have to be animated... rig performance is how quickly the rig evaluates, and thats the same be it animated or doing nothing.

As for how Im measuring performance, just from the frame rate. Load any of those rigs in 9.6, and you get a higher frame rate in the viewport than LW10. And its not just "rigs" that are affected, deforms are also slower, as demonstrated by the FBX setup, which has no real "rig", and is just a hierarchy of bones that influence the mesh, again, runs slower in 10.

Matt
12-28-2010, 11:37 AM
they dont have to be animated... rig performance is how quickly the rig evaluates, and thats the same be it animated or doing nothing.

As for how Im measuring performance, just from the frame rate. Load any of those rigs in 9.6, and you get a higher frame rate in the viewport than LW10. And its not just "rigs" that are affected, deforms are also slower, as demonstrated by the FBX setup, which has no real "rig", and is just a hierarchy of bones that influence the mesh, again, runs slower in 10.

Craig, can you drop me a video showing what you're experiencing?

Titus
12-28-2010, 11:45 AM
3 days to go guys!

hrgiger
12-28-2010, 02:46 PM
they dont have to be animated... rig performance is how quickly the rig evaluates, and thats the same be it animated or doing nothing.



Tried out the zulu rig. On loading and hitting play in Lightwave 10, I'm getting roughly 5.53 FPS. In 9.6, the same rig/scene is playing with FPS showing 9.57 FPS. So roughly a 43% drop in rig evulation/performance from 9.6.

nessent
12-28-2010, 03:54 PM
so would the finalized release of LW10 address this slow down (in the rig evaluation)... or would we have to live with it... ???

TeZzy
12-28-2010, 04:14 PM
Is it?

It is VERY easy to load an LW9.6 lws-file into LW10 while working with MotionBuilder or Maya usually is a much more involved process, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

But there is a problem, if the intention was to animate in maya and then render in lw then clearly the process involved is a must and that is a fact that can't be changed.

But why should I animate in 9.6 and render in 10 if 10 is suppose to have everything 9.6 has and better. Don't forget 10 is a paid upgrade not free.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is hard to load 9.6 files into lw 10 either....but that isn't the point. It is the fact I shouldn't have to do that

This is my opinion and some will agree and others will disagree.

Yog
12-28-2010, 04:56 PM
The rigs in LW-10 might be slower than in LW9.6, but at least the problems with CC-Surfaces have been sorted for LW-10.

probiner
12-28-2010, 05:12 PM
Oh really? what problems? UV mapping, exploded mesh? Edge Weight inconsitency?

RebelHill
12-28-2010, 07:04 PM
so would the finalized release of LW10 address this slow down (in the rig evaluation)... or would we have to live with it... ???

Well this IS the final release version Im talking about ofc, thats why I think its a bit of a disaster, especially considering that 9.6 itself got way slower than 9.3 in this respect... the overall effect being that CA in LW is going way downhill. The new tools that were added in the 9.5/.6 cycle made things a whole LOAD better from the perspective of what you could do, but the performance losses really take away from it big time.

So to that extent, the idea of working in 9.6 to then load into 10 is no kind of solution AT ALL... the whole perfomance issues need a hell of a lot of attention.

Also, yes, I minced around with the colour correction, and other ogl settings, makes no difference whatsoever.

And I will make a vid demonstrating all the different issuees Im finding, and things that affect it... when I get time, but its not hard... just hit play, or scrub the timeline and see what frame rates you get in viewport.

robpowers3d
12-28-2010, 07:42 PM
Well this IS the final release version Im talking about ofc, thats why I think its a bit of a disaster, especially considering that 9.6 itself got way slower than 9.3 in this respect... the overall effect being that CA in LW is going way downhill. The new tools that were added in the 9.5/.6 cycle made things a whole LOAD better from the perspective of what you could do, but the performance losses really take away from it big time.

So to that extent, the idea of working in 9.6 to then load into 10 is no kind of solution AT ALL... the whole perfomance issues need a hell of a lot of attention.

Also, yes, I minced around with the colour correction, and other ogl settings, makes no difference whatsoever.

And I will make a vid demonstrating all the different issuees Im finding, and things that affect it... when I get time, but its not hard... just hit play, or scrub the timeline and see what frame rates you get in viewport.

In response to your posts we checked with the piranha alien rig and the Adam Rig today and with Play at Exact Rate OFF it was 12 fps in 9.6 and 11 fps in LW 10.

cresshead
12-28-2010, 07:49 PM
so there is not that much of a performance drop off>> 1 frame per second dropped in lw10.

BlueApple
12-28-2010, 07:58 PM
Tried out the zulu rig. On loading and hitting play in Lightwave 10, I'm getting roughly 5.53 FPS. In 9.6, the same rig/scene is playing with FPS showing 9.57 FPS. So roughly a 43% drop in rig evulation/performance from 9.6.

43% drop? We've got two users who are seeing some pretty crummy performance (both of whom I respect and appreciate,) but I'd like to here if this is what others are experiencing too. Can anyone else share what they are seeing between 9.6 and 10 regarding rig performance? I don't deny what rebelhill and hrgiger are seeing, I'd just like to hear what others are seeing, too.

*Just saw the response from robpowers3d. I don't deny their results from the piranha alien or Adam rig, but wondering if they see the same results with the content rebelhill supplied. Any way you good folks (Newtek) could check it out and get back to us?

hrgiger
12-28-2010, 08:30 PM
In response to your posts we checked with the piranha alien rig and the Adam Rig today and with Play at Exact Rate OFF it was 12 fps in 9.6 and 11 fps in LW 10.

Rob I'm seeing some wildly different results. I loaded the piranha alien rig, turned off play at exact rate, and the results of that was around 13FPS in 9.6 and only 4FPS in LW10. In fact, I get just about the same results with Play at exact rate turned on.

RebelHill
12-28-2010, 08:46 PM
absolutely...

Ive also checked the piranha alien (using of course the 9.6 version rig in both LWs), and performance for me is 19fps in 9.6, and 15 fps in 10... around 25% drop... Interestingly the 10 version rig ran at only 8fps (in 10 ofc).

And this same drop off in performance is exactly the same for every single rig, adam, emissary, and every single one of my own, or those created by others.

As for the play at exact rate on off... ofc I always go with it off, but it should make no difference, as with it on LW just skips frames, whilst maintaining the same overall rate of playback.

I should mention this is the win 32 version... so maybe the smaller decrease in performance you're seeing is related to using a different OS version of LW... but irrespective, the problem IS still there, and the performance drops that came in during the 9.6 cycle from 9.3 have been pointed out a TON of times, and its just getting worse.

Honestly.

TeZzy
12-28-2010, 08:49 PM
I appreciate there are new features and overhauls on things, so I will continue to comment on CA side of things only.

Ideally lw 10 should have increased in performance or at the very least be the at the same performance of 9.6

hrgiger
12-28-2010, 08:54 PM
Ideally lw 10 should have increased in performance or at the very least be the at the same performance of 9.6

+1. A lot of this huzzah about LW10 was supposed to be it's immediateness, it's ability to see what you have right away without waiting. I don't think that should come at the cost of actual performance of scenes. We're gaining ground in rendering which Lightwave has been historically strong, and losing ground in CA where Lightwave has been historically weak.

geo_n
12-29-2010, 12:02 AM
Well with maestro rig it is absolutely unuseable with the control panel. Im back to 9.6. Maybe 10.6 would squash the bugs and improve performance.

Dexter2999
12-29-2010, 12:43 AM
Well with maestro rig it is absolutely unuseable with the control panel. Im back to 9.6. Maybe 10.6 would squash the bugs and improve performance.

Make that 10.1...and hopefully before the end of March

Sekhar
12-29-2010, 01:06 AM
absolutely...

Ive also checked the piranha alien (using of course the 9.6 version rig in both LWs), and performance for me is 19fps in 9.6, and 15 fps in 10... around 25% drop... Interestingly the 10 version rig ran at only 8fps (in 10 ofc).

And this same drop off in performance is exactly the same for every single rig, adam, emissary, and every single one of my own, or those created by others.

As for the play at exact rate on off... ofc I always go with it off, but it should make no difference, as with it on LW just skips frames, whilst maintaining the same overall rate of playback.

I should mention this is the win 32 version... so maybe the smaller decrease in performance you're seeing is related to using a different OS version of LW... but irrespective, the problem IS still there, and the performance drops that came in during the 9.6 cycle from 9.3 have been pointed out a TON of times, and its just getting worse.

Honestly.

Could be a 32 bit thing. I tried Piranha with the 64 bit version on Vista, and I actually got slightly better results with 10. With exact rate off, I get 8.61 on 9.6 and 8.64 on 10.0; with exact rate on, the numbers are 8.60 on 9.6 and 8.67 on 10.0. These are with the LW 9.6 rig. I got only 2.62 with the LW 10 rig using LW 10.

Cageman
12-29-2010, 04:42 AM
So to that extent, the idea of working in 9.6 to then load into 10 is no kind of solution AT ALL... the whole perfomance issues need a hell of a lot of attention.

Again, what I am suggesting here are things that could make life easier for the animator until LW10.x is released to fix these issues (if they actually can be fixed).

The way I would set things up would be to go for an MDD-based solution for renderscenes (which is something I allready do), meaning that it doesn't really matter from which version of LW the animation and deformation comes from.

nessent
12-29-2010, 05:04 AM
Well this IS the final release version Im talking about ofc, thats why I think its a bit of a disaster, especially considering that 9.6 itself got way slower than 9.3 in this respect... the overall effect being that CA in LW is going way downhill. The new tools that were added in the 9.5/.6 cycle made things a whole LOAD better from the perspective of what you could do, but the performance losses really take away from it big time.

So to that extent, the idea of working in 9.6 to then load into 10 is no kind of solution AT ALL... the whole perfomance issues need a hell of a lot of attention.

Also, yes, I minced around with the colour correction, and other ogl settings, makes no difference whatsoever.

And I will make a vid demonstrating all the different issuees Im finding, and things that affect it... when I get time, but its not hard... just hit play, or scrub the timeline and see what frame rates you get in viewport.

would it made a difference if LW10 running on 64bit Windows 7 ???

thanks RH ... You'er a well respected LW-rig master/LW lover, maybe an email of your findings, alil nudge in the right direction for the progammers at newtek.

so far, it seems like the concensus is that LW 10 rigs are slower... i totally agree with RH, working from backwards, 9.6>10.0, 'no kind of solution AT ALL' ... Given Newteks history of releases, I do not think there would be a 0.1 let alone a 0.5 hotfix in March... this isnt AD-Maya 2011, where Hotfixes was released pretty fast,.... the first one was like 4weeks, and the 2nd hotfix was released 6-8 weeks after... after maya 2011 was launched.

and yes i understand the newtek team is considerabley smaller... but still it would be nice to get the performance boost/recover and whatever bugs that pops up fixed in a 0.1 in a timely manner after a product launch.

thats my two penny!

: )

hrgiger
12-29-2010, 05:22 AM
would it made a difference if LW10 running on 64bit Windows & ???



I was running 64 bit windows on my tests.

geo_n
12-29-2010, 05:23 AM
The way I would set things up would be to go for an MDD-based solution for renderscenes (which is something I allready do), meaning that it doesn't really matter from which version of LW the animation and deformation comes from.

Have you successfully loaded an mdd from the new baker from lw 10 to lw 9?
Seems the new baker is also not backward compatible.

RebelHill
12-29-2010, 06:26 AM
Ok, well...

IMO using 9.6 to animate, and then bring things into 10 is good enough in the meantime for those who the performance issues get in the way of too much, but yes, only in the meantime, a fix should ultimately be seen as a must have at some point for 10.1/.2/.x

However, dont forget, there are additional tweaks to the rigging tools in 10... SAI can crossover which channels are followed (ala follower mot-mod), and there's the texture mappable option now (something which I should point out i think is VERY cool... gradient bias for constraints=GET IN!)

So what happens when using those new tools... there's no option to go back and work in 9.6 for rigs that use those lil nuggets.

But on the subject of those new tools...

10 was kicking out the exact same framerates as 9.6 up until those new tweaks to the motion options panel were added, so it's clearly their evaluation and addition that has caused the extra slowdown.

Now onto the issues as to why is it that Rob and NT noticed little to no slowdown on the rigs they tested... HERE'S the answer...

They've got subD level set to 1 or higher for the character mesh... In this case the frame rate slows down due to the extra polys, and the fact that subdivision is calculated each frame (as its a deforming object, after bones)...

This itself brings the framerate way below what the rig evaluation rate is, so LW is unable to reach its max framerate for the actual rig evaluation.

Set the character mesh to subD 0... or better yet, replace it with a null object, and all tahts left for LW to calculate is the actual rig controll, and this shows the slowdown in every rig, every time.

RebelHill
12-29-2010, 06:31 AM
PS... note to all, esp NT...

Ive taken the day off work, so Im gonna spend my time compiling some very thorough bug reports on this issue, as well as several others Ive encountered in LWs rigging tools.

So I'll aim to get those finished up, and posted today, and once up, I hope others will join in testing them through to confirm or deny them where possible so as NT can have a solid whack of info to help fix some of them for a future point update to LW10.

Ryste3d
12-29-2010, 06:39 AM
So what suppose to be Lightwave 10 10 10 is now 10 10 10 9.6. Just great...

RebelHill
12-29-2010, 07:06 AM
Oh yes...

And in response the a Q that nessent asked me on PM...

I also do character stuff in maya as well as LW. Generally I tend to jsut animate in maya, and prefer to be supplied rigged models for use there. I can also do some rigging in there, but jsut stick to the mroe basic, simple setups, as once you get into advanced stuff such as IKFk switching, autosnapping, etc then you really need to get much more heavily into MEL, and all I can say for that is I HATE IT I HATE IT (Jeremy Clarkson voice..).

So I do my advanced rigging only in LW as its far more accessible for such things, and I love being able to do almost everything to that regard b y just poitn and click in the motion options panel... its great.

So jsut so as y'all can be clear, this is no kind of LW bash in favour of maya... I much prefer LW... but it would really upset me to see its character tools slipping further behind, as Id be left with little choice but to take more and more of my work in that area across elsewhere, and confront the aforementioned HATE.

blah blah, yackety schmack!

TeZzy
12-29-2010, 07:48 AM
lw10 looks more and more like it was updated with look-dev as it's main focus.....nothing wrong with that though. That's just my feeling, of course I could be completely wrong.

Performance boost with rigs in LW10 was for some reason always dancing in my mind, don't know why though.

RebelHill
12-29-2010, 08:14 AM
well I do like the VPR, and the new geocache and fbx tools may be very helpful to me, once i get chance to check em out more indepth.

But certainly rig performance is gonna be impportant for me as I try to keep as much of my pipe as poss in LW native, as well as to anyone else doing CA stuff...

or not just CA stuff... anything that requires rigs using numbers of constraints really is gonna suffer the same fate atm.

Hopefully once I get the issues documented, and others can test and attest to them, NT will be able to improve things for the next .x update and the current strenghts that 10 has will grow even more.

Titus
12-29-2010, 09:00 AM
Just two more days!

GraphXs
12-29-2010, 09:20 AM
I hope NT gets on the rigging speed and overall OpenGL speed improvements. I wish I could get 100fps for complex rigs and scenes! LW OpenGL has some great features but is slow compared to Max on my machine at work. I don't really understand why, especially the world I'm using is a real-time based world, LW chokes in OpenGL unless I set the bounding box threshold to low.

-EsHrA-
12-29-2010, 10:35 AM
nope..
no lw10 in 2010!

mlon

Philbert
12-29-2010, 10:46 AM
Did they say there would be no LW in 2010?

nessent
12-29-2010, 11:12 AM
i dont think anyone's gonna mistake you for lightwave bashing, you'er a 100% lightwave lover : )

you'er just pointing out some kinks ....


thanks for all your work and help RH

Sekhar
12-29-2010, 11:18 AM
Set the character mesh to subD 0... or better yet, replace it with a null object, and all tahts left for LW to calculate is the actual rig controll, and this shows the slowdown in every rig, every time.

LW 10 is still a tad faster for me with subd 0: got 18.14 with 9.6 and 18.43 with 10.0. This is with the 64 bit versions on Vista. When you do your tests, may be you could try with the 64 bit version too?

EmperorPete
12-29-2010, 12:54 PM
So what suppose to be Lightwave 10 10 10 is now 10 10 10 9.6.
That's how it appears to me; I'm getting more and more confused. So before I throw down money for this, can someone please tell me what on Earth I'd be getting for it? :(

RebelHill
12-29-2010, 01:25 PM
Well, Ive no 64bit setup available here, so unfortunately I cant test things out there, though I see HR is using 64, and seeing similar issues to myself.

Any-which-how...

Ive done the bug reports as promised, so Id ask please for other users to check them out for themselves and see what they can or cant reproduce on their own setups and sytems.

Ive got others to come still, but for the moment Ive banged out the main 4 big bugs in rigging that bother me, most affecting LW9.6 as well as 10...

These are the ticket numbers...

36074
36075
36077
36079

Kuzey
12-29-2010, 01:27 PM
I hope NT gets on the rigging speed and overall OpenGL speed improvements. I wish I could get 100fps for complex rigs and scenes! LW OpenGL has some great features but is slow compared to Max on my machine at work. I don't really understand why, especially the world I'm using is a real-time based world, LW chokes in OpenGL unless I set the bounding box threshold to low.

I thought the OpenGL problem was fixed months/a year ago??

Kuzey

GraphXs
12-29-2010, 01:49 PM
I thought the OpenGL problem was fixed months/a year ago??

Kuzey

It could just be my setup. I'm using a Quadro FX 3500. I've tried a number of opengl settings and it's slow. (9.6) I will try to run some more test. I'm just surprised its not as fast as max for real time stuff.

Kuzey
12-29-2010, 02:00 PM
I had OpenGL issues, long before NT found out it was a bug...during 9.5/9.6 beta period. I'm hoping it was bad code and not my MacBook...which was brand new at the time.

Anyway....I'll have to test the 9.6.1 hot fix once it's out and see.

btw....thanks for the info!

Kuzey

Lewis
12-30-2010, 04:20 AM
I really can't even think of jumping to other softwares now that LightWave has finally found the best leader and people. LW10 is shining for me, as the future of LW and Core are.

That's great to hear Lino and i agree with most of that BUT you still model in modo - right :)?

RebelHill
12-30-2010, 09:04 AM
well... You cant ofc load 9.6 type rigs into 9.3, as much of the constraint stuff in 9.6 was new.

However if you take a rig that was done for 9.3 or earlier and load it into 9.6 (yes, the IK will go a bit wonky, but ignoring that) you'll find its considerably slower.

The maestro rig is a prime example of this.

3dWannabe
12-30-2010, 08:29 PM
Well, Ive no 64bit setup available here, so unfortunately I cant test things out there, though I see HR is using 64, and seeing similar issues to myself.

Any-which-how...

Ive done the bug reports as promised, so Id ask please for other users to check them out for themselves and see what they can or cant reproduce on their own setups and sytems.

Ive got others to come still, but for the moment Ive banged out the main 4 big bugs in rigging that bother me, most affecting LW9.6 as well as 10...

These are the ticket numbers...

36074
36075
36077
36079

When I try to check the status of those cases (ticket #s?), it can't find them:

https://secure.newtek.com/FogBugz/default.asp

When I've submitted bugs, I get back a long url where I can check the case.

How can I check the status of those and get info on what they are?

I'm also very interested in any FBX issues and understand from Greenlaw there are a number that are still outstanding and even worse in 10 so 'I think' he's reverted to 9.6.1.

Thanks!