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virtualcomposer
10-15-2010, 06:30 PM
I'm trying to be as economical as possible and would not like to waste money where I don't have to spend it. Can I get away with using After Effects as my main editor instead of buying Final Cut Pro? I can purchase AE but I can't afford to buy both. I know After Effects I can embellish on my animation with LW and also much much more! I don't really edit much except scenes and composites of my LW animations. What do you think? Software is extremely expensive when trying to buy allot of and it's difficult to find a CS4 version of AE that isn't registered and legal. Is there a discount website that sells legal Adobe software of version of the past that I can register through Adobe?

Hopper
10-15-2010, 06:39 PM
I would suggest downloading trial versions of both (if you're not already familiar with the products) and attempt to apply your general workflow to each and see which one best suits your needs. Like you said, they are both very expensive, so I would definitely make a list of features you absolutely cannot do without.

virtualcomposer
10-15-2010, 06:41 PM
I would suggest downloading trial versions of both (if you're not already familiar with the products) and attempt to apply your general workflow to each and see which one best suits your needs. Like you said, they are both very expensive, so I would definitely make a list of features you absolutely cannot do without.

I don't think Final Cut Pro has a trial version unfortunately. ) :

Hopper
10-15-2010, 06:43 PM
Damn .. there goes that idea. Do you happen to know someone else that uses it perhaps? Maybe you can temporarily sneak off with an installation and try it?

virtualcomposer
10-15-2010, 06:50 PM
Damn .. there goes that idea. Do you happen to know someone else that uses it perhaps? Maybe you can temporarily sneak off with an installation and try it?

well, I've been using FCP for years and now that I'm a full time freelancer, allot of my project "askings" are for stuff with 3D and After Effects but also I've had some clients wanting me to edit some videos and add some effects as well. Because I'm on a tight budget, I'd rather just use what's going to get me by for now but have the power to make my work look really good so that I get repeat business. I'm loving the power that After Effects has and reading up on it, it's pretty amazing. You can also add audio as well so it makes me wonder if FCP can be bypassed for now.

Hopper
10-15-2010, 06:54 PM
Then I'm assuming you've already visited the Video Copilot (http://www.videocopilot.net/) site and seen all the nifty tricks you can do with AE.

virtualcomposer
10-15-2010, 07:11 PM
Then I'm assuming you've already visited the Video Copilot (http://www.videocopilot.net/) site and seen all the nifty tricks you can do with AE.

actually no but now that you've sent me the link, I can check out all of the great stuff now. Thanks for the link. I may just buy After Effects for now and only buy FCP once I make some money and I have to have it. No sense in buying a billion dollars worth of stuff I may or may not use. For what I'm seeing a major demand on with clients asking me for project work, is Lightwave, After Effects, Photoshop & Digital Performer. I own all but After Effects. I actually saw After Effects (Sealed in box) on ebay for $499 and it's non-educational. The guy said he was a business and has allot of software overstock. He had thousands of positive feedbacks so I'm assuming it's all legit? $999 for After Effects is a major setback if I have to come up with that kind of money. What do you think?

nickdigital
10-15-2010, 07:21 PM
I'm trying to be as economical as possible and would not like to waste money where I don't have to spend it. Can I get away with using After Effects as my main editor instead of buying Final Cut Pro? I can purchase AE but I can't afford to buy both. I know After Effects I can embellish on my animation with LW and also much much more! I don't really edit much except scenes and composites of my LW animations. What do you think? Software is extremely expensive when trying to buy allot of and it's difficult to find a CS4 version of AE that isn't registered and legal. Is there a discount website that sells legal Adobe software of version of the past that I can register through Adobe?

AE isn't really a video editing tool. It's painful in that regards.

virtualcomposer
10-15-2010, 07:25 PM
AE isn't really a video editing tool. It's painful in that regards.

So if I'm basically just adding parts like a 20 sec ad or CG/effects scene, is it best for that? I'm not really an editor. I just add stuff to scenes or do 15-30 ad commercials.

Hopper
10-15-2010, 07:26 PM
He had thousands of positive feedbacks so I'm assuming it's all legit?
Unfortunately, I wouldn't feel comfortable affirming someone's legitimacy as an eBay seller. But one thing you can do is to review items that the business has sold. There are quite a few shady dealers out there that have agreements with other shady dealers in which they will sell back and forth to get their selling numbers high enough to seem legitimate. I have never purchased software via eBay or any other non-authorized vendors (at least not for significantly priced software anyway).

However, if you do feel that the seller is indeed as they seem, make sure that all the associated licensing requirements are in order (i.e. previously registered licenses are transferable if it is "used", being a non-authorized dealer, etc...).

Hopper
10-15-2010, 07:30 PM
AE isn't really a video editing tool. It's painful in that regards.
What functionality do you feel it lacks, if you don't mind me asking. I don't do an enormous amount of actual editing, so I sincerely would like to know. I would hate to recommend the package to someone who is perhaps expecting something completely different.

virtualcomposer
10-15-2010, 07:36 PM
Unfortunately, I wouldn't feel comfortable affirming someone's legitimacy as an eBay seller. But one thing you can do is to review items that the business has sold. There are quite a few shady dealers out there that have agreements with other shady dealers in which they will sell back and forth to get their selling numbers high enough to seem legitimate. I have never purchased software via eBay or any other non-authorized vendors (at least not for significantly priced software anyway).

However, if you do feel that the seller is indeed as they seem, make sure that all the associated licensing requirements are in order (i.e. previously registered licenses are transferable if it is "used", being a non-authorized dealer, etc...).

that's a great point. I might call Adobe and have them check it out to make sure all of the ducks are in a row.

G-Man
10-15-2010, 07:46 PM
If you have AE CS5 and a lot of RAM you can do some small sequences and piece them together, but AE really isn't built for it. I have used FCP for years and really like it, however, have you taken a look at Premiere CS5? The latest version has really come a long way, and it works hand in hand with After Effects. You can send a multilayered project from AE to Premiere, edit it, send it back to AE for enhancements then send it back again for final edit.

I don't know your financial situation, but if you're serious about doing this stuff, you're going to have to get the right tools. 15 years ago I didn't have much money, working a job paying $16,000 a year. I took out a loan for a Video Toaster editing machine including a camera and a deck for $8,000. By today's standards that machine is an antique. That purchase made a huge difference in my career.

My point is, even though you may not think so, the tools of today are dirt cheap. Find the ones that work for you and find a way to make it happen.

Rayek
10-15-2010, 09:18 PM
I do not really understand the problem? There are a number of quite (semi-)professional non-linear video editors available for Linux. So why not install Ubuntu alongside your Mac, and cut in these for free? Not as flexible as FCP, or Premiere, but it works quite well.

Or even better, wait for about a month, or so, and download Lightworks (!) for free - it is going open source. When that happens I will probably throw Premiere in the bin. :-) It supports After Effects, FCP, etc.

http://www.editshare.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=203
http://www.editshare.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=180&Itemid=54

Just get After Effects, be a bit patient, and install Lightworks. Done, and be happy!

nickdigital
10-15-2010, 09:19 PM
What functionality do you feel it lacks, if you don't mind me asking. I don't do an enormous amount of actual editing, so I sincerely would like to know. I would hate to recommend the package to someone who is perhaps expecting something completely different.

Well CS5 may be better with this since it's 64 bit but you can't really easily scrub video like you can in something like Premiere.

You can't even really scrub audio unless you hold (I think ctrl down) and even then it's not really quick at that.

If you start layering a bunch of fx on cuz you're in an AE mindset AE starts to just need a lot of time to re-render.

CS5 might be better. But I would cringe at the prospect of having to edit someone's project in AE. Doing FX shots that's fine...but having them ask for holds, speed up footage, replay it, cut here, cut there, trim frames here, trim frames there, etc...I would wanna poke my eyes out.

ericsmith
10-15-2010, 09:44 PM
It's worth noting that FCP can do most of the things that AE can. Maybe not quite as elegantly, but it's got the same nested composition features, direct control and animation of elements right in your workspace, time stretching, color grading, etc.

If you were doing advanced motion graphics and/or compositing (ie. motion tracking or masking/roto) you would probably still want AE, but for day-to-day editing and comping, FCP will get the job done, and much easier than AE.

Eric

ericsmith
10-15-2010, 09:50 PM
What functionality do you feel it lacks, if you don't mind me asking. I don't do an enormous amount of actual editing, so I sincerely would like to know. I would hate to recommend the package to someone who is perhaps expecting something completely different.


In my opinion, it's not so much a lack of features, as it is the workflow. For example, in AE, you have a timeline, but every element is it's own layer, and this includes every cut. So a project with any significant length/complexity can be very difficult to decifer in the timeline with all those layers (imagine a half-hour show with 300 cuts, which would mean 300 layers if all you had were simple video segments - add anything on top of that and the layer count goes up even more).

And then there's the fact that you can't even watch your project in real time without creating a preview, and even that will only give you as much as you can fit in RAM. I've had one minute projects that I couldn't watch from start to finish without doing a final render.

Eric

Hopper
10-15-2010, 09:59 PM
CS5 might be better. But I would cringe at the prospect of having to edit someone's project in AE. Doing FX shots that's fine...but having them ask for holds, speed up footage, replay it, cut here, cut there, trim frames here, trim frames there, etc...I would wanna poke my eyes out.


In my opinion, it's not so much a lack of features, as it is the workflow. For example, in AE, you have a timeline, but every element is it's own layer, and this includes every cut. So a project with any significant length/complexity can be very difficult to decifer in the timeline with all those layers ...
And then there's the fact that you can't even watch your project in real time without creating a preview...
And now I know. It makes sense to me.

It seems that AE is good at just that.. "after effects", and not production editing on anything larger than brief segment cuts. I guess it's just like most things around here. It's just another tool in the box, albeit a great tool, just not the only tool.

geo_n
10-15-2010, 11:42 PM
Video editing in AE would be difficult with all those layer per footage per effects and its not real time.
I think someone was using Ulead Videostudio in this forum and I looked at the price and its dirt cheap but only for Windows.

CaptainMarlowe
10-16-2010, 12:34 AM
OK, if I'm not misunderstood, you're searching a video editor capable of compositing ?
If it's the case, should I be you (but I'm just editing videos as a hobby, which is quite different from being a professional !!), I would go for Final Cut studio. It's far less expensive than AE and FCP7 is bundled with Motion 4. I haven't used motion since version 2, but I found it was a pretty decent compositing software for not too complex scenes, and it seems since then to have considerably matured. As the bundle also includes compressor, color pro, soundtrack pro and DVD studio pro, as a freelancer, I would consider FCS in the first place.

Now, Lightworks seems a very interesting move. Thanks Rayek for the info.

meshpig
10-16-2010, 01:17 AM
Then I'm assuming you've already visited the Video Copilot (http://www.videocopilot.net/) site and seen all the nifty tricks you can do with AE.

Hey thanks for that, had AE for about a month. Does anyone else have a problem with the mac touch screen mouse with scrolling and screen zoom on where it just opens panels, resizes windows and changes stuff by just moving it around?:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

cresshead
10-16-2010, 02:41 AM
how about final cut express rather than final cut pro?

or sony vegas running on bootcamp?

or blender for video editing?

virtualcomposer
10-16-2010, 03:08 AM
how about final cut express rather than final cut pro?

or sony vegas running on bootcamp?

or blender for video editing?

you can video edit with Blender? same features as fcp?

3dworks
10-16-2010, 03:12 AM
i would suggest you to use final cut express along with AE. it has very few limitations compared to FCP, and it's just the bare editing package (no motion or soundtrack included!). one of the few restrictions is that you can't do natively a timecode stamp, but there is a free script around which does it perfectly. if i remember correctly, the other notable restriction is that you won't be able to do multi camera capturing and the color grading tool of FCE is simplified. for the rest it's identical to FCP - with all the great workflow it is known for. also, it will run well on a macbook. i'm using it along with AE CS5, and as i'm not a video editor but doing 3d animation postproduction with it, i'm not missing any of the FCP editor's features.

you can even use the conduit nodal compositing suite http://www.dvgarage.com/conduit/ in FCE, thus using the same nodes in AE and FCE.

cheers

markus

virtualcomposer
10-16-2010, 03:17 AM
i would suggest you to use final cut express along with AE. it has very few limitations compared to FCP, and it's just the bare editing package (no motion or soundtrack included!). one of the few restrictions is that you can't do natively a timecode stamp, but there is a free script around which does it perfectly. if i remember correctly, the other notable restriction is that you won't be able to do multi camera capturing and the color grading tool of FCE is simplified. for the rest it's identical to FCP - with all the great workflow it is known for. also, it will run well on a macbook. i'm using it along with AE CS5, and as i'm not a video editor but doing 3d animation postproduction, i'm not missing any of the FCP editor's features.

cheers

markus

sounds good to me. I love it when someone writes a script to save us all money. lol

cresshead
10-16-2010, 04:13 AM
you can video edit with Blender? same features as fcp?

put it this way...
you can edit good enough in blender to produce Big Buck Bunny film or sintel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO0yXC0oyIA&feature=fvsr

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpg9yizPP_g&feature=fvsr

you can COMP good enough in blender to produce the same films as stated above.
:thumbsup:

virtualcomposer
10-16-2010, 04:32 AM
put it this way...
you can edit good enough in blender to produce Big Buck Bunny film or sintel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO0yXC0oyIA&feature=fvsr

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpg9yizPP_g&feature=fvsr

you can COMP good enough in blender to produce the same films as stated above.
:thumbsup:

Wow! Titles and all?

cresshead
10-16-2010, 04:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qf7Xx8SJ1I&feature=channel

a quick look at compositing in blender/color correction etc

virtualcomposer
10-16-2010, 04:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qf7Xx8SJ1I&feature=channel

a quick look at compositing in blender/color correction etc

I love the fact there's the scope option which is not available with FCE. Blender seems pretty amazing. For me anyway, I would do all my animations in LW but stuff LW can't do easily like water and stuff like that I would use Blender for. Can you export in any format and compression in Blender as well?

cresshead
10-16-2010, 04:46 AM
my best advice on blender is the buy the sintel dvd so you get all the working files from the film as well as hours of tutorials on how they made it. As you can see there are some videos from that dvd on youtube but the fastest way to get them all is via the dvd.

regard books on blender be aware that 2.5 is a re write from the ground up compared to blender 2.49, it's a totally different beast so getting a book on 2.49 will lead to some confusion if your using 2.5

there are 2.5 books /video tutorials in production so keep an eye out for them.

i'll add that whilst the video editor is totally capable of editing video/films it's obviously not a purpose built video edit app from the ground up like sony vegas, speed edit, FCP or adobe premire. however it is CAPABLE and FREE...and!....running on osx, windos and linux.

virtualcomposer
10-16-2010, 04:51 AM
hey thanks. Yeah I have 2.54 beta which I think is the last build before the final release. It's nice to know I can save money right now with free software that I can at least own legally and get the job done until I can make more money and then buy more stuff. My wife and I are just really tight with money and we are very thankful for what we have and the newtek forum for all those good advices we get. :thumbsup: This forum has been great!

3dworks
10-16-2010, 06:25 AM
another free package available for OSX is this one http://www.cinefx.org/
but i never tried it. development seems to be stalled, but there is a downloadable intel-mac version at least. maybe worth a try.

markus

Danner
10-16-2010, 06:59 AM
nickdigital is right, interactivity is where you will suffer. Realtime playback, realtime transitions, filters, layering etc that you will find in good editing packages. They all add up to spending a whole lot more time fine tuning your edit.

3dworks
10-16-2010, 07:12 AM
yes, getting the work done fast with the help of an interactive and easy to use GUI, that's the main point of using a dedicated video editing package. but if you have to mess around with lazy screen updates (because the app is not smart in using opengl or dedicated hardware drivers), cryptic GUI's or time expensive workarounds like booting in another OS, you also can do it directly in AE whatever version. btw AE CS5 is *way* better for scrubbing and real time playback than any previous versions i used, but be prepared to have lots of RAM ready. not sure if this will work out well on a macbook pro, though.

markus

ingo
10-16-2010, 07:23 AM
How about AE Elements ?

cresshead
10-16-2010, 08:45 AM
How about AE Elements ?

AE Elements = Does Not Exist :)

http://www.adobe.com/products/

ingo
10-16-2010, 09:16 AM
Ah sorry, i forgot its Premiere Elements bundled with a crappy image editor :D

http://www.adobe.com/products/psprelements/

yaschan
10-16-2010, 09:35 AM
I am also in similar crossroads as you.

Honestly I can't stand the idea of editing any serious project with AE just because of the reasons other posted. AE is whole heartedly built only for compositing shots, and I find working with any kind of audio.. disturbing.

But then again things like Premiere allows no neat compositing tricks, even free placement of transparent image is beyond my idea(!). And Final Cut Pro can't do anything near to AE.

So, as soon as you can afford, I should recommend you to separate your workflow to compositing/editing with dedicated apps.

In any case, good luck! Let us know which you will choose.

CaptainMarlowe
10-16-2010, 11:19 AM
There is also a free nodal compositor for Mac, allthgou I've almost nerver used it. It's named Ramen (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ramenhdr/)

Dexter2999
10-16-2010, 11:46 AM
Finding a good compositing package to use as an editor, is like finding a good wrench to use as a hammer.

Rayek
10-16-2010, 11:47 AM
Lightworks NLE open source will probably be available sometime during the upcoming weeks:

http://olivierkoos.blogspot.com/2010/10/more-on-opensource-lightworks.html

Interesting interview, btw, on the reasons why to go open source.

Dexter2999
10-16-2010, 12:07 PM
Lightworks NLE open source will probably be available sometime during the upcoming weeks:

http://olivierkoos.blogspot.com/2010/10/more-on-opensource-lightworks.html

Interesting interview, btw, on the reasons why to go open source.

For the younger people who may not know about Lightworks.

When I was in college (many moons ago) there were only two broadcast quality NLE's available, Avid, and Lightworks.

Avid was a Mac only option back then (they introduced the AvidExpress the year I finished the program for PC's...which was practically a Mac slaved to a PC).

Lightworks was the PC only solution. It was also the first Multi-cam NLE as far as I know. I remember specifically they told us that the sitcom MURPHY BROWN was shot 16mm multi cam to get the film look. Then everything was transferred to tape and finished in Lightworks. Back then, these systems cost upwards of $70,000. Then again they were turnkey only.

Anyway, just wanted to impress upon some that just because the software is going OpenSource, "free" (if it is free, "OpenSource" doesn't have to be free) doesn't mean "worthless".

Rayek
10-16-2010, 12:33 PM
Lightworks was the PC only solution

Lucky for us they will be releasing Lightworks for Windows, Mac and linux.


Anyway, just wanted to impress upon some that just because the software is going OpenSource, "free" (if it is free, "OpenSource" doesn't have to be free) doesn't mean "worthless"

Indeed, just check out what happened with Blender. EditShare (company behind Lightworks atm) is going to offer paid-for modules and pro-support/hardware platforms as well, so they are basically cutting off piracy by offering the software for 'free' to (indy) filmmakers, hobbyists, animators, and everyone else who wants access to a professional NLE system. I'm hoping the stereoscopic option will still be available in the open source version.

cresshead
10-16-2010, 01:26 PM
Lucky for us they will be releasing Lightworks for Windows, Mac and linux.



Indeed, just check out what happened with Blender. EditShare (company behind Lightworks atm) is going to offer paid-for modules and pro-support/hardware platforms as well, so they are basically cutting off piracy by offering the software for 'free' to (indy) filmmakers, hobbyists, animators, and everyone else who wants access to a professional NLE system. I'm hoping the stereoscopic option will still be available in the open source version.

http://www.editshare.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=203


http://www.editshare.com/images/stories/images_product/scr_lightworks.png

virtualcomposer
10-16-2010, 01:56 PM
http://www.editshare.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=203


http://www.editshare.com/images/stories/images_product/scr_lightworks.png

hey, when I click on the download option and it ask if I want to be a part of it for Lightworks, do I fill the info out and then it downloads?

ericsmith
10-16-2010, 02:04 PM
And Final Cut Pro can't do anything near to AE

Can you be more specific?

In my experience, FCP can do most of what AE can do. Maybe not things like motion tracking or advanced color-keying (although FCP does have the ability, it's just not as advanced). But when it comes to the bread and butter stuff like dealing with layers of video, alpha channels, animating directly in the workspace, etc., it's all there.

Eric

3dworks
10-16-2010, 02:15 PM
hey, when I click on the download option and it ask if I want to be a part of it for Lightworks, do I fill the info out and then it downloads?

just check the last point "I would like to be notified when the free Lightworks application is available for download." - means that they are working on it ;)

nice discovery anyway - lets see if this will be a real thing...

cheers

markus

Rayek
10-16-2010, 05:47 PM
Can you be more specific?

In my experience, FCP can do most of what AE can do. Maybe not things like motion tracking or advanced color-keying (although FCP does have the ability, it's just not as advanced). But when it comes to the bread and butter stuff like dealing with layers of video, alpha channels, animating directly in the workspace, etc., it's all there.

Eric

As far as I know, FCP cannot do 3d layers? No advanced masking tools? 'nuff said. For that you will have to use either After Effects, Motion, or Nuke, etc: a compositing app. FCP's bread and butter is NLE, not compositing or motion graphics. Same holds true for Premiere: yes, you can use layers, blend modes, alpha channels, animate, etc., but it's a bit of a pain to do so, and After Effects kills Premiere and FCP in these areas.

It is like what one of the previous posters commented: you can use a wrench as a hammer, but do you really want to? Use the right tool for the right job, and it will save you loads of time, and the app will work FOR you, rather than AGAINST you. Comparing FCP and After Effects is comparing apples and bananas.

cresshead
10-16-2010, 06:44 PM
it's all a matter of taste...

i prefer bananas!

yaschan
10-16-2010, 07:12 PM
Lightworks sounds very interesting. I will check it out.

ericsmith
10-16-2010, 07:40 PM
As far as I know, FCP cannot do 3d layers? No advanced masking tools? 'nuff said. For that you will have to use either After Effects, Motion, or Nuke, etc: a compositing app. FCP's bread and butter is NLE, not compositing or motion graphics. Same holds true for Premiere: yes, you can use layers, blend modes, alpha channels, animate, etc., but it's a bit of a pain to do so, and After Effects kills Premiere and FCP in these areas.

It is like what one of the previous posters commented: you can use a wrench as a hammer, but do you really want to? Use the right tool for the right job, and it will save you loads of time, and the app will work FOR you, rather than AGAINST you. Comparing FCP and After Effects is comparing apples and bananas.

Okay, I can basically agree with the points you're making, especially if you're coming from a specialist point of view. But from the point of view of someone who's needs are kind of stuck in the middle of NLE and compositing, I think FCP does more to accomodate a compositor than AE does to accomodate an editor.

That's why I would personally recommend the original poster to go with FCP. But that, of course, is just my opinion.

Eric

wesleycorgi
10-16-2010, 08:49 PM
I've found that since I switched to AE, I no longer use Final Cut (Express). I primarily do mograph. Tons of great plugs (free and commercial).

Also I found you can upgrade to CS suite relatively reasonably if you already have Adobe product. I downloaded the whole CS suite as a trial.

Within days, what was painful in FC was pretty easy in AE. And I found certain things better in Premiere (although rendering video in Premiere is awkward). I upgraded well before my trial ended.

Dexter2999
10-16-2010, 11:08 PM
I've found that since I switched to AE, I no longer use Final Cut (Express). I primarily do mograph. Tons of great plugs (free and commercial).

Also I found you can upgrade to CS suite relatively reasonably if you already have Adobe product. I downloaded the whole CS suite as a trial.

Within days, what was painful in FC was pretty easy in AE. And I found certain things better in Premiere (although rendering video in Premiere is awkward). I upgraded well before my trial ended.

Well, if you do mograph primarily, you might try C4D and then find LW to be awkward.

Not slamming LW at all. It's the only app I use. But from all reports I have heard that C4D is near seamless with AE. I can't wait for LW to play catch up in this area.

wesleycorgi
10-16-2010, 11:35 PM
Well, if you do mograph primarily, you might try C4D and then find LW to be awkward.

Not slamming LW at all. It's the only app I use. But from all reports I have heard that C4D is near seamless with AE. I can't wait for LW to play catch up in this area.

Amen. Switching to C4D from LW, however, is more costly than the $500 (CS upgrade from Photoshop) vs $1500? Final Cut Studio (new license) decision. I've played with Motion and it has some cool features, but lacks the ones I really need from AE or AE plugs.

Way back when, I actually used both C4D and LW (the only Mac high end 3D packages at the time --- I also used Strata and Raydream). Coming from a somewhat CAD background at the time, C4D actually made more sense. LW won out because I could maintain the upgrade costs. Since I was mostly doing 2D graphics, LW worked fine for my infrequent usage.

It is only in the past few years, with more video production projects, I find that I'm exploiting more of LW's power. At the same time, I'm bumping my head against its limitations, where C4D seems to have strenghths.

Rayek
10-16-2010, 11:36 PM
Okay, I can basically agree with the points you're making, especially if you're coming from a specialist point of view. But from the point of view of someone who's needs are kind of stuck in the middle of NLE and compositing, I think FCP does more to accomodate a compositor than AE does to accomodate an editor.

That's why I would personally recommend the original poster to go with FCP. But that, of course, is just my opinion.

Eric, you're absolutely correct - it really depends what kind of focus his work will have. However, I do feel that any kind of semi-advanced compositing is much, much easier, convenient and faster in afx, motion, nuke, etc, but a NLE.


But from all reports I have heard that C4D is near seamless with AE. I can't wait for LW to play catch up in this area.

Blender has had pretty good support for After Effects for a while now. The newest 2.5 script is now available as well. Pretty amazing stuff.
http://www.blender.bartekskorupa.com/-video/109.html

Here is an interesting tutorial on using (free) icarus motion tracking in combination with Blender and After Effects. Almost as easy as C4D.
http://loran-cg.blogspot.com/2010/09/camera-tracking-icarusblenderafter.html


Within days, what was painful in FC was pretty easy in AE. And I found certain things better in Premiere (although rendering video in Premiere is awkward). I upgraded well before my trial ended.

Yes, Premiere had some rough rides and critique in the past, but has become a very viable option for a lot of people. The integration with After Effects, Photoshop, and the other Adobe apps is not something to underestimate. Some time ago I worked a pretty complex project, and the integration of having round-about editing in all the apps made it VERY convenient - I love none-destructive editing :-). Just make sure your machine has the 'oomph' to handle it.

Rayek
10-16-2010, 11:58 PM
Amen. Switching to C4D from LW, however, is more costly than the $500 (CS upgrade from Photoshop) vs $1500? Final Cut Studio (new license) decision. I've played with Motion and it has some cool features, but lacks the ones I really need from AE or AE plugs.

Way back when, I actually used both C4D and LW (the only Mac high end 3D packages at the time --- I also used Strata and Raydream). Coming from a somewhat CAD background at the time, C4D actually made more sense. LW won out because I could maintain the upgrade costs. Since I was mostly doing 2D graphics, LW worked fine for my infrequent usage.

It is only in the past few years, with more video production projects, I find that I'm exploiting more of LW's power. At the same time, I'm bumping my head against its limitations, where C4D seems to have strenghths.

Your experience mirrors mine! C4D's ever increasing upgrade costs made me switch to Lightwave too - and with each new version more and more people seem to complain about the high upgrade fees. The new Broadcast version looks nice, but for some obscure reason they left out caustics, subsurface scattering, sub-polygon displacement, toon/cel rendering, rigid and soft body dynamics, hair, cloth and thinking particles. All stuff that is, for the most part, standard in most other applications, and which I feel is very handy to have for motion graphics design.

It defies explanation!

I do still use my 8.5 license for xfrogging, though. And then export to LW and Blender. ;-)

virtualcomposer
10-17-2010, 02:29 AM
Eric, you're absolutely correct - it really depends what kind of focus his work will have. However, I do feel that any kind of semi-advanced compositing is much, much easier, convenient and faster in afx, motion, nuke, etc, but a NLE.



Blender has had pretty good support for After Effects for a while now. The newest 2.5 script is now available as well. Pretty amazing stuff.
http://www.blender.bartekskorupa.com/-video/109.html

Here is an interesting tutorial on using (free) icarus motion tracking in combination with Blender and After Effects. Almost as easy as C4D.
http://loran-cg.blogspot.com/2010/09/camera-tracking-icarusblenderafter.html



Yes, Premiere had some rough rides and critique in the past, but has become a very viable option for a lot of people. The integration with After Effects, Photoshop, and the other Adobe apps is not something to underestimate. Some time ago I worked a pretty complex project, and the integration of having round-about editing in all the apps made it VERY convenient - I love none-destructive editing :-). Just make sure your machine has the 'oomph' to handle it.

Incarus is free now?

wesleycorgi
10-17-2010, 04:42 AM
Blender has had pretty good support for After Effects for a while now. The newest 2.5 script is now available as well. Pretty amazing stuff.

I'll have to check this out. Thanks for the tip!

Rayek
10-17-2010, 11:05 AM
Incarus is free now?

http://www.colinlevy.com/tuts/IcarusTutorials/Icarus.php

Educational use only, though. Both Mac and Win.

Titus
10-17-2010, 05:11 PM
hey, when I click on the download option and it ask if I want to be a part of it for Lightworks, do I fill the info out and then it downloads?

I sent my info like a year ago, still waiting.

BigHache
10-17-2010, 05:44 PM
Wanted to chime in since I used FCP and AE on almost a daily basis in my production pipeline.

Keyframes
FCP 7 has a graph editor that supposedly allows easing of keys. Even still, editing keys in AE is much simpler and faster especially if you use keyboard shortcuts.

Expressions
Depending on how much you need them, they can be awesome and are not something available in FCP.

Scrubbing and RT Effects
As others mentioned, real-time scrubbing and effects/transitions in FCP is a major time saver. You pretty much have to do RAM previews to see what you've done in AE, which just equates to time. This is where FCP's render files come in handy. And if you have enough layers and effects going on you may even need to turn the preview quality down on the AE Composition while working.

Effects
If you need awesome masking tools, greenscreen keying and the like, AE is the app for the job. Additionally stacking effects and controlling keys are just easier in AE.

Color Correction/Grading
Apple Color really shines here if you get into the FCP Studio. Nearly every piece of footage I've shot runs through Color to put some sweetness on it. While you can do a significant level of color correction in AE, not having scopes becomes a hindrance especially if you're editing for broadcast.

Editing
While I have used AE for simple editing tasks, it's definitely not as fast as slamming clips together in an FCP sequence.

Capturing Footage
As far as I know AE does not have the ability to control a deck and capture footage from tape, or even print to tape, if that would be needed. I haven't used Premiere since '95 so I can't comment on it.


At the end of the day it really does come down to budget and what exactly you need to do. Hope this helps.

virtualcomposer
10-17-2010, 11:10 PM
I sent my info like a year ago, still waiting.

Yes, all I got was an email and submission form. Nothing else.

virtualcomposer
10-17-2010, 11:10 PM
Wanted to chime in since I used FCP and AE on almost a daily basis in my production pipeline.

Keyframes
FCP 7 has a graph editor that supposedly allows easing of keys. Even still, editing keys in AE is much simpler and faster especially if you use keyboard shortcuts.

Expressions
Depending on how much you need them, they can be awesome and are not something available in FCP.

Scrubbing and RT Effects
As others mentioned, real-time scrubbing and effects/transitions in FCP is a major time saver. You pretty much have to do RAM previews to see what you've done in AE, which just equates to time. This is where FCP's render files come in handy. And if you have enough layers and effects going on you may even need to turn the preview quality down on the AE Composition while working.

Effects
If you need awesome masking tools, greenscreen keying and the like, AE is the app for the job. Additionally stacking effects and controlling keys are just easier in AE.

Color Correction/Grading
Apple Color really shines here if you get into the FCP Studio. Nearly every piece of footage I've shot runs through Color to put some sweetness on it. While you can do a significant level of color correction in AE, not having scopes becomes a hindrance especially if you're editing for broadcast.

Editing
While I have used AE for simple editing tasks, it's definitely not as fast as slamming clips together in an FCP sequence.

Capturing Footage
As far as I know AE does not have the ability to control a deck and capture footage from tape, or even print to tape, if that would be needed. I haven't used Premiere since '95 so I can't comment on it.


At the end of the day it really does come down to budget and what exactly you need to do. Hope this helps.

thanks for the added info. :D

Rayek
10-17-2010, 11:51 PM
I sent my info like a year ago, still waiting.

Yup, same here. "All good things come to those who wait" - Or something ;-)

The guys at EditShare say it will be out in the upcoming weeks. We'll see.

BTW, to add to the discussion: if compositing is your main thing, you may want to save up some money for Nuke. Way nicer than Afx - Yes, it's quite doable in Afx, but node-based compositing is in a league of its own. (Try Blender's node compositing to find out what all the fuzz is about - it's really nice.) I wish someone would create a node-based Photoshop, or at least a plugin to add that functionality - I often feel very limited by Photoshop's layer-based approach.

Come to think of it: will Core have a node-based compositing solution, or is that asking for too much? I am still deciding whether to update to 10 or not. I really like the real-time preview. 10 is starting to look good.

virtualcomposer
10-18-2010, 01:04 AM
Yup, same here. "All good things come to those who wait" - Or something ;-)

The guys at EditShare say it will be out in the upcoming weeks. We'll see.

BTW, to add to the discussion: if compositing is your main thing, you may want to save up some money for Nuke. Way nicer than Afx - Yes, it's quite doable in Afx, but node-based compositing is in a league of its own. (Try Blender's node compositing to find out what all the fuzz is about - it's really nice.) I wish someone would create a node-based Photoshop, or at least a plugin to add that functionality - I often feel very limited by Photoshop's layer-based approach.

Come to think of it: will Core have a node-based compositing solution, or is that asking for too much? I am still deciding whether to update to 10 or not. I really like the real-time preview. 10 is starting to look good.

you know I tried using Blender's Video editing function and tried importing a .mov file and it crashed every time.

cresshead
10-18-2010, 01:15 PM
you know I tried using Blender's Video editing function and tried importing a .mov file and it crashed every time.

watch my video on how to...>> youtube!:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh8Q2Qh3GSM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Rao0NB0mE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0CK0mNFJjM

virtualcomposer
10-18-2010, 06:26 PM
watch my video on how to...>> youtube!:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh8Q2Qh3GSM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Rao0NB0mE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0CK0mNFJjM

is there a special way to import? I have 2.5 Beta and everytime I drag something into the time line, it crashes. I can't even get video in there.

Rayek
10-18-2010, 06:48 PM
You might want to try to download one of the newest builds for the mac @ graphicall.org. I use an optimized Intel Windows build, which works like a charm - no problems importing either mov or even flv (!) files.

virtualcomposer
10-18-2010, 07:05 PM
You might want to try to download one of the newest builds for the mac @ graphicall.org. I use an optimized Intel Windows build, which works like a charm - no problems importing either mov or even flv (!) files.

works great now. I was looking on blender's website for the updates. Guess there's more sites then I thought. Thanks.

Rayek
10-18-2010, 07:45 PM
On Blender.org only the 'official' build is available, while on Graphicall the lastest and greatest builds can be downloaded. If you can run the optimized builds, rendering becomes MUCH faster, and all the latest features become available as well.

I really like this approach.

Pixelthekid
10-23-2010, 03:09 PM
I hope this doesn't make me sound smug. I know how tight money is these days for all of us.

Anyway, if I was buying After Effects, I'd do my best to buy the Production Bundle. You get pretty much all of the related Adobe software for only $600'ish more dollars. Still way cheaper than FCP. I mean last I looked, AE was $1k and the production bundle was like $1600.

I wouldn't be without AE. It's something I rely on for far too much and by the way, Premiere CS5 is pretty hot (in my opinion).

Just my two cents!

Rayek
10-23-2010, 03:21 PM
I hope this doesn't make me sound smug. I know how tight money is these days for all of us.

Anyway, if I was buying After Effects, I'd do my best to buy the Production Bundle. You get pretty much all of the related Adobe software for only $600'ish more dollars. Still way cheaper than FCP. I mean last I looked, AE was $1k and the production bundle was like $1600.

I wouldn't be without AE. It's something I rely on for far too much and by the way, Premiere CS5 is pretty hot (in my opinion).

Just my two cents!

Yep, Premiere CS5 is a huge improvement - especially so with a decent CUDA enabled video card (which means an nvidia one). I've got an 280GTX, and with a little text file hack my rendering times got slashed into less than half (even on my [email protected]). And that's not even mentioning the boost to realtime playback of the timeline.

Getting the production bundle is the smart way to go, though at a higher initial cost...