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oliversimonnet
10-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Hello every one :)
I have just watched "the forth kind".
And it was a brilliant film.

Has any one else seen it?

But i was just wondering what are your thought on alien abductions? or just aliens in general.

If you have seen the film, do you think its real or not?

Personally i think it probably is real (based on true events) since that footage is told to be REAL footage, its pretty convincing :)

But that's just my opinion, what are yours?

raw-m
10-11-2010, 11:03 AM
Aliens, Shmailens :)

oliversimonnet
10-11-2010, 02:00 PM
haha
i take it, you dont belive then? :)

Tonttu
10-11-2010, 02:18 PM
I think that stuff happens on the astral plane and not physical. Grab this DVD (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dimethyltryptamine/pre-buy-the-spirit-molecule-dvd) to find out more, maybe.

cresshead
10-11-2010, 02:21 PM
personally, i've not abducted any aliens...though i have been tempted to!

oliversimonnet
10-11-2010, 02:42 PM
I think that stuff happens on the astral plane and not physical. Grab this DVD (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dimethyltryptamine/pre-buy-the-spirit-molecule-dvd) to find out more, maybe.

cool thanks for the link, i cant wait to understand what this so called "spirit milecule" is :)


personally, i've not abducted any aliens...though i have been tempted to!

hahaha :)

(i have had a look into these "Nome disappearances" and it turns out they are true, but i dunno if it was aliens but if you read the page i have linked it does say "so many disappearances but remains have never been found")
http://www.rlnn.com/ArtNov05/UnsolvedCasesNomeAttractFBI.html

Tonttu
10-11-2010, 02:51 PM
cool thanks for the link, i cant wait to understand what this so called "spirit milecule" is :)

Here's a little spoiler for you from http://www.cottonwoodresearch.org/

Naturally-occurring hallucinogens in humans

We believe the existence of hallucinogenic tryptamine compounds in the human body, such as N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), 5-methoxy-DMT, and bufotenine requires explanations taking into account multiple perspectives. These discussions should address evolutionary, cultural and social, and spiritual implications.

Earlier investigators in this field focused on the tryptamines’ relevance to psychosis, it is just as likely that they play a role in mediating other states of consciousness, such as dreams, religious/spiritual experiences, creativity, near-death states, as well as normal waking consciousness.

Elmar Moelzer
10-11-2010, 02:51 PM
I am pretty sure that there are somewhere out in the near endless universe some sort of alien life forms living somewhere on a planet. But I cant say whether there is intelligent life anywhere nearby. I am a little sceptical of that.

What I am 99% sure of is, that all ufo sightings and alien abductions/disections/encounters/crashes/conspiracies/cover ups, etc can be explained with something more rational and more believeable.
Many reasons for that. You could start by reading up on what Carl Sagan had to say about this. He was after all one of the greatest speakers for SETI and he also designed the record that went on the voyager craft (I believe). So he was not saying that there are not aliens. He was just very sceptical of all UFO related claims that have been made.

oliversimonnet
10-11-2010, 03:00 PM
Here's a little spoiler for you from http://www.cottonwoodresearch.org/

Naturally-occurring hallucinogens in humans

We believe the existence of hallucinogenic tryptamine compounds in the human body, such as N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), 5-methoxy-DMT, and bufotenine requires explanations taking into account multiple perspectives. These discussions should address evolutionary, cultural and social, and spiritual implications.

Earlier investigators in this field focused on the tryptamines’ relevance to psychosis, it is just as likely that they play a role in mediating other states of consciousness, such as dreams, religious/spiritual experiences, creativity, near-death states, as well as normal waking consciousness.

aa cool thanks for the info dude :)


I am pretty sure that there are somewhere out in the near endless universe some sort of alien life forms living somewhere on a planet. But I cant say whether there is intelligent life anywhere nearby. I am a little sceptical of that.

What I am 99% sure of is, that all ufo sightings and alien abductions/disections/encounters/crashes/conspiracies/cover ups, etc can be explained with something more rational and more believeable.
Many reasons for that. You could start by reading up on what Carl Sagan had to say about this. He was after all one of the greatest speakers for SETI and he also designed the record that went on the voyager craft (I believe). So he was not saying that there are not aliens. He was just very sceptical of all UFO related claims that have been made.

ye same here
but i done know if anyone has seen the documentary on area 51
its called "dream land: area 51"

it was very interesting, and it turns out that the Americans and the Russians have successfully made flying disc shaped transports that actually work (hover in mid air and maneuver very rapidly and well)

so the people that say they have seen UFO's it is most lightly they have just seen a test run of one of the American military experiments.

oliversimonnet
10-11-2010, 03:09 PM
Doubtful that this was behind UFO's in the distant past or even as early as the 1950's. :)

I don't think we had that kind of tech and I seriously doubt we have that kind of tech now where saucers can change direction on a dime and speed off at mach 5 or greater as has been observed. And if we DO, it's alien tech. :thumbsup:

mm ye that's true.
but it is known (im not 100% on this)
that the tech that is about publicly NOW, is 10 years behind what is actually available tot he personal in places such as Area 51.

which i think is an outrage haha, if there is cool stuff available i wanna see it hehe :)

back on the subject of alien sightings before the 1950, it has been said that in ancient hieroglyphics (4000 BC) that there are images of shuttle's that look like Apollo and drawings of men in space suits and oxygen masks.

wich is strange haha :)

cresshead
10-11-2010, 03:15 PM
well if we say that the 'aliens' didn't have any problems using a Nuclear pulse propulsion so they could achieve 5% the speed of light then the nearest earth is just 85 earth years away for them...if they are from our nearest star [not the sun btw!]



http://www.universetoday.com/15403/how-long-would-it-take-to-travel-to-the-nearest-star/

oliversimonnet
10-11-2010, 03:56 PM
well if we say that the 'aliens' didn't have any problems using a Nuclear pulse propulsion so they could achieve 5% the speed of light then the nearest earth is just 85 earth years away for them...if they are from our nearest star [not the sun btw!]



http://www.universetoday.com/15403/how-long-would-it-take-to-travel-to-the-nearest-star/

85 years thats a while :)

ooo we have found a planed that is almost the same as earth but its like a few thousand light years away

but it does exist, it has water and an atmosphere looks a bit like earth to :) i cant remember what it is called now i thought it might have been "Gliese 581 c" but i don't think that's the one i am thinking about :S

oliversimonnet
10-11-2010, 04:13 PM
Yeah, this is on the most recent Discovery Channel specials - Ancient Aliens - and it's been on their shows before. Actually very convincing arguments. There are UFO's in religious paintings and in old "newspapers" from hundreds of years ago. And then there's the stuff in India, Japan, China, etc. You would think that earth is the grand Central Station of the galaxy with the number of sightings we've had.

But then "aliens" may not even come across lots of space - perhaps they bend it and travel anywhere by point and click? Using anti-matter or exotic matter or.... who knows what power sources are available?

Interesting topic. I follow this stuff all the time. :alien:

ye we do seem to have aparently had a lot of visits hehehe :)
i wounder if well ever find out if they do exist or not :S

i wounder if there were ant "abductions" back in the ancient times hehe :)

for all we know it could be like the films "the day the Earth stood still"

and they could have been here before us, and still waching us now :S

scary stuff when you think about it :)

rwhunt99
10-11-2010, 06:58 PM
I've seen the movie "the fourth kind" and it is a bit scary, but I'm a skeptic and unfortunately they put enough facts in there to keep you hooked, but I don't believe it's true. Most problems up there are caused by isolation, and lack of sunlight and it causes deep psychological disorders in some people.

I've read Chariots of the Gods and several other books by Erik Von Daniken and he too makes it sound possible but again he wrote the first book while in prison and I think he's just a con man.

There was another set of books by Whitley Strieber ( I can't seem to remember the titles, they made a movie out of one of them) where he's been kidnapped by aliens all his life and no matter where he goes they find him. He has a lot of so called facts to corroborate his story, but here again, he is the author of a horror story and that strains his credibility.

shrox
10-11-2010, 07:00 PM
Maybe, a very long time ago, somebody came by. But it is dim in human memory now...

crashnburn
10-11-2010, 08:55 PM
I've read Gold of the Gods by Von Daniken, an interesting read, but still doubt his integrity.

erikals
10-11-2010, 09:18 PM
what i think is funny is that if there really were aliens orbiting this planet, shouldn't they be able to make the crafts invisible, and if they decided not to, why would that be?

"hey, we are here, look what we can do...!"

nah, aliens must be smarter than that, if they have the tech to visit earth that is...

if they were here, chances are you would never know...!!! :O

erikals
10-11-2010, 09:21 PM
I've read Gold of the Gods by Von Daniken, an interesting read, but still doubt his integrity.

well, he did go to jail for fraud once, or so i heard... :]

crashnburn
10-11-2010, 09:41 PM
Well I've read his book and come to the conclusion that I don't believe him lol. If an alien comes to visit and tells me Von Daniken was right then I will accept it. But we come to our own conclusions, and I don't believe him.

danielkaiser
10-11-2010, 09:46 PM
All I know is the Anal Probes have to stop.

crashnburn
10-11-2010, 09:48 PM
:alien: :eek:

erikals
10-11-2010, 09:56 PM
You people seem to be missing the point. Von Daniken isn't the only one who has these theories. There are MANY others and some evidence is more compelling than others. To dismiss an entire concept because of one man is rather narrow-minded - wouldn't you say? Just because some of his items have proved less than satisfying doesn't mean that ALL of them have been proven the same. Perhaps we should name all of the OTHER authors who believe similarly and then try to disprove them all?

well, so are all Christians right about their religion too, since so many believe it?
or are all Muslims right about their religion, since so many believe it?

most scientists today say that there most likely is life out there,
this was not the case years back, where they would be laughed at, kinda funny in a way, how time changes things :]

i just find it strange that Aliens would use such old technology.
heck, humans have almost outdone them...
(controlling molecules over a distance, converting human cells, to a small extent read thoughts...)

last thing i read is that scientists have made objects invisible by controlling the airwaves around them...

...so why, on earth, are these aliens so damn old-fashioned...

 

crashnburn
10-11-2010, 09:59 PM
Megalodon- I'm not missing the point, I have my own opinion, you have yours. I'm not saying that there aren't aliens, there may well be. But I base my opinion on what evidence I have seen. Maybe you could recommend some other books. As much as I don't believe it, the subject can be interesting.

erikals
10-11-2010, 10:02 PM
 
now,... go Destroy All Humans! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egdqD6-zPLw)

 

erikals
10-11-2010, 10:44 PM
You're talking about the people who are listening to the message and I'm talking about the messengers. You are equating opposites.
yes, my wrong, skimmed too fast...


So you haven't seen the programs showing ancient stone blocks with cuts that have the precision of a laser? Blocks cut in ancient times that would be VERY difficult to replicate today using modern technology?
nope. (have a youtube link?)


Old fashioned? You don't seem to know what is available and what evidence some of these people use. How about high-tech that we would find difficult to replicate even today? That's the sort of "evidence" that many of these experts point to. You need to do a little more research. :)
not saying we have this tech, but saying it's not too far away.
if Aliens have the tech to travel between stars, surely they must have great tech as well...


I would be like others in these forums and provide a link to a Google search, but I find that offensive and most people here don't need it. Just check out Amazon.com and type Ancient Aliens - there are LOADS of books & DVD's with lots of information.
sure, but i have yet to see anything of interest.


The point is... yes... I do have my opinion, but it is based on reading ALLOT of books and watching many "Discovery channel" specials. I'm not just picking Von Daniken out of my a$s and saying "look... he's the ONLY one with theories." There are many others out there who have other theories and back them up with similar suppositions. I won't dismiss ANY of them until I know a little bit more about those theories.
i know, i watch them too... but different people see different answers.


And by the look of some answers here, most don't even know what many of these theories are even based on, let alone understand them. Yes, you can have your opinions, but it helps to base them on more than a critical review of one person or one piece of evidence. As the OP stated, there are MANY items that are used as evidence that we have been visited. Maybe we have, maybe we haven't, but I won't say either way since I don't have all of the facts. But... some of the evidence ie quite compelling.
i'm not saying it's not possible, but from what i've seen there is (unfortunately?) no evidence that this can have happened, or happens...

 

erikals
10-11-2010, 11:29 PM
well, Aliens flying to earth to carve a rock just sounds,... weird.

it's still very interesting though, i guess there is some hope in me saying "what if...." ?  :]

oliversimonnet
10-12-2010, 01:11 AM
wow, when i went to bed it wwas just on page 2 haha)


Here is an interesting item that was pointed out in one of the specials:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

Down in the section Engineering:

"In assembling the walls of Pumapunku, each stone was finely cut to interlock with the surrounding stones and the blocks fit together like a puzzle, forming load-bearing joints without the use of mortar. One common engineering technique involves cutting the top of the lower stone at a certain angle, and placing another stone on top of it which was cut at the same angle. The precision with which these angles have been utilized to create flush joints is indicative of a highly sophisticated knowledge of stone-cutting and a thorough understanding of descriptive geometry. Many of the joints are so precise that not even a razor blade will fit between the stones. Much of the masonry is characterized by accurately cut rectilinear blocks of such uniformity that they could be interchanged for one another while maintaining a level surface and even joints. The blocks were so precisely cut as to suggest the possibility of prefabrication and mass production, technologies far in advance of the Tiwanaku’s Incan successors hundreds of years later."

Seeing these stone blocks up close is quite incredible. You don't even see such precision in the Egyptian pyramids. It boggles the mind.

oo that sound interesting, i wounder how it was done.
i whish we could find out.

Elmar Moelzer
10-12-2010, 01:17 AM
It is amazing how people will just believe everything the mass media tells them. "Hey it must be true, because I read it in a book!".
Mhmmm...
I have my own opinion on a lot of things, not just aliens and the mass media never looks good in any of them. And no it is not because of some conspiracy, but because they too have their agendas, most of all they want to make money though.
Books about the non existance of aliens will not sell. Books about the existance of aliens will sell. It is as easy as that.
Journalism these days is not about facts, but about sensationalism. It is called edutainment.

Tonttu
10-12-2010, 03:06 AM
About getting tech from aliens: it could just as well happen in dreams or visionary encounters, because what is transmitted are ideas. Many scientific discoveries have involved visionary states or dreams, for example the 3D structure of DNA (LSD).

Consider this:
Ritual Magic, Mind Control and the UFO Phenomenon (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/UFO_Ritual_Magic.htm)

It was through the Amalantrah Working — which included the ingestion of hashish and mescaline in its rituals — that Crowley came into contact with an interdimensional entity named Lam, who by the way just happens to be a dead ringer for the popular conception of the "Grey" alien depicted on the cover of Whitley Strieber's Communion. Crowley called them "Enochian entities" because he purportedly contacted them by using "Enochian call", a Cabalistic system/language devised by 17th century Elizabethan magician, Dr. John Dee.

oliversimonnet
10-12-2010, 03:40 AM
Never knew that. Perhaps the human mind in an altered state can tap into something metaphysical? Who knows? But it's interesting to debate and hypothesize. :)

haha i had to google that (metaphysical)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics (for any one els who dont knoww what it means :) )

Tonttu
10-12-2010, 03:42 AM
For reference, on visionary scientific work: http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/francis_crick_dna_lsd.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#Use_of_LSD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_August_Kekul%C3%A9_von_Stradonitz#Benzen e

Skywatcher_NT
10-12-2010, 05:32 AM
check this out:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/
http://www.enterprisemission.com/

lots of info on the subject with lots of links to books and other stuff.

meshpig
10-12-2010, 05:49 AM
Ah, been abducted many times. You ought to check out the waiting lounge if you can and the array of alien magazines whilst they, the aliens prepare the needle to sew your head back on. Truly amazing.

- Sleep paralysis. What you've never experienced being unable to move in the moments after a disturbing dream?

Iain
10-12-2010, 06:14 AM
I think it is good to be objective on topics like this.

I would love there to have been visitors here. It's just that, like with religion, logic seems to stand solidly in the way of the theories and the majority of the theory proponents are total f***ing nutbags.

Graham Hancock used to put forward sound, logical theories but even his site looks like a mystic's junkyard now.

Oh, and I agree, the probes are just unnecessary and damned intrusive!

erikals
10-12-2010, 06:26 AM
For reference,.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#Use_of_LSD...

funny guy that man  :]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJttdkKo4nM

 

Elmar Moelzer
10-12-2010, 08:36 AM
you are more than likely to be cynical about everything and will tend to believe nothing. That's fine.
There are facts and there is the scientific method. Everything else is religion, one way or the other. Of course everybody is entitled to their belief, but dont state your beliefs as facts or even as a scientific theory.

I do know that most of the reported UFO sightings are resolved as being just the planet Venus (any astronomer will tell you).
I do know that most alien abductions can be explained with much more likely explanations such as an episode of schizophrenia, hallucinations (maybe even drug induced), or sleep paralysis. My wife used to suffer from sleep paralysis and she will tell you that it can be very powerful and can convince you all sorts of things. Depending on where your beliefs are, your mind will make up all sorts of stuff to explain the situation.

I do also know that the human mind is easily fooled into seeing things that are not there, or seeing things differently from reality. Ask ANY illusionist how he tricks his audience. This has nothing to do with intelligence, btw.
Intelligent people are as easily fooled, or maybe even more easily.
I strongly recommend James Randis talks at NASA and elsewhere. He is a highly regarded sceptic (and former magician). It makes you understand why we fall victim to our own mind so often.
E.g. his talk about assumptions is really interesting. Quick recap: We all make assumptions about something, we have to, or we would end up being catatonic. You dont check your chair every time before you sit on it. No, you are assuming that it will carry your weight. You dont check the sidewalk either before you step on it, no, you are assuming it is made from concrete and not from peanutbutter jelly sprincled with gravel, or something like that.
And normally these assumptions that we and our brain make all the time are very safe assumptions to make.
But sometimes, sometimes they can fool you. As I mentioned, magicians make use of that all the time. But this can also happen quite by accident and we happen to see something that did not quite happen that way (simply because our brain was incorrectly filling the gaps based on our past experience and assumptions based on those).
Anyway, here is the link to the first part (of 12) of James Randis NASA speech. It is all very "common sense" stuff, but you would be surprised how easily we often forget even this basic stuff and fall for trickery (whether deliberate or accidential).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQHBHRV6eBQ

erikals
10-12-2010, 08:48 AM
many people also make fake UFOs just for fun,
be it CG, radio controlled vehicles, photoshop, puppets, or, flying burning tampons in the sky... (yes.)

erikals
10-12-2010, 08:51 AM
 
"as" for implanted probes,...
http://hubpages.com/hub/Parents-Beware-of-Vodka-Soaked-Tampons

 

Iain
10-12-2010, 09:09 AM
 
"as" for implanted probes,...
http://hubpages.com/hub/Parents-Beware-of-Vodka-Soaked-Tampons

 

Oof I've just tried that out. Sore at first but I'm not feeling any pain now [hic]

erikals
10-12-2010, 09:18 AM
 
anyway, my former neighbor and i (she was abducted, :P) some years back saw a huge unidentified flying lights, (we couldn't see the shape, if there was a shape, it was pitch black) which was in the air for minutes, for then suddenly to disappear. this could have been a hoax. it was weird though.

years later i saw a green light flying over me at high speed, not a rocket, not a flashlights aimed at the clouds. till this day i still wonder what it was... lasted for a second. strange stuff.

but even though i cannot explain this, doesn't mean that it's aliens in crafts.
maybe it was a natural phenomena, like the Hessdalen phenomena lights...
(beware, many Hessdalen phenomena lights on youtube are fakes... but for the real ones, scientists are trying to figure out what they are and how they emerge)

i might as well post some picture here, as they're very hard to dig up...

erikals
10-12-2010, 09:19 AM
Oof I've just tried that out. Sore at first but I'm not feeling any pain now [hic]

hehe, :]
can't believe people do that stuff... LoL...!

Elmar Moelzer
10-12-2010, 09:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/user/mozart595#p/u/5/JdIVK74n3hk
Morristown UFO Hoax.
Good watch.

Tonttu
10-12-2010, 09:50 AM
I do know that most alien abductions can be explained with much more likely explanations such as an episode of schizophrenia, hallucinations (maybe even drug induced), or sleep paralysis. My wife used to suffer from sleep paralysis and she will tell you that it can be very powerful and can convince you all sorts of things. Depending on where your beliefs are, your mind will make up all sorts of stuff to explain the situation.


But what is sleep paralysis? Or near-death or out-of-body experiences or shamanistic journeys? You can't say you have explained these phenomena until you have explained consciousness and that is extremely difficult to achieve within the limits of materialism. I am not sure you are a materialist, but that is my assumption based on how you give your explanation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism


Physicalism may be defined as the theory that the universe is comprised exclusively of physical entities. However, consciousness, for example, appears to be problematic for this thesis, as it exhibits properties not ordinarily associated with most other physical entities.

erikals
10-12-2010, 09:55 AM
good find :]

like i said, it's hard to get "real" pictures of the Hessdalen phenomena, so here are some i had stored on my computer from previous documentaries /books. these pictures are taken by scientists or people who worked on the project.

again, these are just lights, not physical objects.

(the Norwegian government is of course curious if this could be a new energy source)

 

Elmar Moelzer
10-12-2010, 10:00 AM
But what is sleep paralysis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

Tonttu
10-12-2010, 10:24 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

So you stopped reading after the first sentence? :D Dude, I've had sp like 30 times, I wasn't asking for a description..

Elmar Moelzer
10-12-2010, 10:36 AM
You were asking what it was. I showed you a link that explained it. The Wiki Article is not very detailed, btw. It clearly is missfiring in the brain. Plenty of rational explanations for why that can happen (electrochemically).

Tonttu
10-12-2010, 11:03 AM
I was arguing that you can't prove the nonexistence of aliens by saying abduction experiences are sleep paralysis. The sp explanation only proves the abductions have taken place on a non-physical plane. The aliens could still be conscious non-physical entities and not products of the imagination.

If you try the explain the mind and consciousness by referring to electrochemical processes, you will run into problems pretty quick.

If I claim I was moving in my astral body while lucid dreaming or in sleep paralysis (after getting out of the paralysis), you could not say this is false before conducting extensive empirical investigations yourself. Why should we reject empirical studies in the case of non-physical phenomenon and pretend it's enough to just throw around superficial observations like neurochemical states or electrical activity?

erikals
10-12-2010, 11:46 AM
...why should we reject empirical studies in the case of non-physical phenomenon and pretend it's enough to just throw around superficial observations like neurochemical states or electrical activity?

...it's not rejected, it's just that the cases who show some potential of credibility are very few and this makes it very hard to study the phenomena, if it at all exists.

project hessdalen is such an example, it luckily happens a couple of times a year, enough to make it possible to study it.

say, if i could actually be able to read someones mind, but only do it once every 10 years or so,
(without knowing myself) it would make it next to impossible to study /confirm this event.

same could be said about most UFO cases, there is too little /bad data for scientists to use.

 

bazsa73
10-12-2010, 11:53 AM
Star Trek rulez, the rest is crap.

Elmar Moelzer
10-12-2010, 12:39 PM
I was arguing that you can't prove the nonexistence of aliens by saying abduction experiences are sleep paralysis.

You can not prove the non existance of something.
But there is very little hard evidence that this is indeed the case. The person making the extraordinary claim (alien abduction) should be the one required to bring the proof, not the one being sceptical of it.
So far I have seen no evidence whatsoever of anything so called "supernatural" that holds during even a simple test.
If there is such a thing, there are 1 million USD for anybody who can proof this on offer by the James Randi Foundation. They have been out there for decades. Nobody has claimed it. Many applied and they all agreed to a series of simple tests to proof their claims under conditions that were set in agreement with the candidates. Nobody, not in decades was able to proof their claim.

oliversimonnet
10-12-2010, 01:21 PM
You can not prove the non existance of something.
But there is very little hard evidence that this is indeed the case. The person making the extraordinary claim (alien abduction) should be the one required to bring the proof, not the one being sceptical of it.
So far I have seen no evidence whatsoever of anything so called "supernatural" that holds during even a simple test.
If there is such a thing, there are 1 million USD for anybody who can proof this on offer by the James Randi Foundation. They have been out there for decades. Nobody has claimed it. Many applied and they all agreed to a series of simple tests to proof their claims under conditions that were set in agreement with the candidates. Nobody, not in decades was able to proof their claim.

that is all very true :)
i didnt know some of that hehe :)

danielkaiser
10-12-2010, 01:47 PM
So you stopped reading after the first sentence? :D Dude, I've had sp like 30 times, I wasn't asking for a description..

I get it every night, it's normal during REM. Otherwise I'd be going out my 9th floor window.

Tonttu
10-12-2010, 02:05 PM
The person making the extraordinary claim (alien abduction) should be the one required to bring the proof, not the one being sceptical of it.

But it is not extraordinary, if we take into account that there are and have been many societies, where such experiences/activity have been ritualized. The most visible example of this today are South American ayahuasceros, who drink their psychedelic potions. They have contact all the time with entities, who could be described as aliens in a different culture. One could say they have already brought the proof, ayahuasca, and you only have to drink it.

Other methods of obtaining evidence might be to practice lucid dreaming or some kind of technique to move from a waking state into an out-of-body state. Then you can call the aliens and see what happens. Not all contacts with aliens happen during sleep paralysis, after all.
And you can replace aliens with elves, djinns or whatever.

Elmar Moelzer
10-12-2010, 03:25 PM
from a waking state into an out-of-body state

From all that I know, out of body experiences can be easily explained as just being dreams. The aforementioned James Randi had one himself. The resolution of the experience was very down to earth.
It is easier if you just have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwKkbd2e-c

I can generally very strongly recommend checking out some more of his videos. They are not only interesting but also quite entertaining.

oliversimonnet
10-12-2010, 04:09 PM
@Elmar Moelzer: thanks for the link, i must say some of that stuff is Pretty interesting :)

i have found the "Dreamland: Area 51" documentary on Youtube hehe, (good old youtube)
its in 9 parts, but NOTE: the audio goes occasionally :( but its still worth the watch :)
check it out

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iEyEi20HkA&feature=related

prometheus
10-13-2010, 01:37 AM
well..My mind is pretty much set on that It´s simply to big distances between stars and planets, and its awfully quiet out there.

Even if I very much would wish for some friendly alien contact, I hold it likely to be something we probably never will reach.

But It would be an awful waste of space if there wasn´t any other life out there, wouldn´t it..:)

A little scary thou if you think that maybe we are the highest evolved lifeform in this galaxy and perhaps other galaxys, It makes you feel alone somehow.

Dont think the universe thinks or plans for distribution of life forms in any way, except for universe having a built in cosmic intelligence that creates what ever it can create under certain circumstances.

It doesn´t seem like any sort of evidence on space visitors Ever have hold up to proper exam as I know of.

I wouldn´t mind beeing abducted by some beutyful female aliens if they use protection thou:)

Michael

erikals
10-13-2010, 02:47 AM
well, here's how i go about it, if humans evolve and tecnology improves for say, 3000 more years,
i'm sure there will be a technology there that we wouldn't think was possible today.
now make that 6000 years, 9000 years,... 12000 years...

and sending humans through a wormhole is one thing, sending technology or waves is another...

prometheus
10-13-2010, 02:59 AM
Well... not that I know anything for certain, but...

1. We don't know what sort of transportation technology they have (if they exist) - it could be auto-wormhole with instantaneous arrival. Who knows?

2. Might not be aliens, might be interdimensional humans from another plane of existence.

3. Might be future humans and time travel.

4. Could be... LOTS of other potential explanations - including nothing at all happening.

Point is... we don't KNOW for sure. There MUST be something else "out there" that has intelligence. Of course if they DO come here, they will still be wanting for intelligent life. Earth is pretty much barren when it comes to that. Especially if they run into politicians first! :eek:


Well yeah...sure we could speculate over that everything is possible, gods, other dimensions etc..and sometimes my fantasy and imagery would like to have it that way, but I think it might be a good ground to base thoughts on what we know rather than what we don´t know and what could be out there.

There was a funny comment from an astro physisist on a tv-series about black holes here in sweden, where He mentioned the black holes are ruining everything we know about physics, physic laws as we know it aren´t valid at that state and we shouldn´t be surprized if a pink elephant with big ears would pop out from there.

Maybe just a comment on how the cosmologic world isn´t there to describe in a mathematic form that humans ever could come up with.

Still, I like to keep my feets on the ground and not letting my fantasy and big ears fly away too much.

The transportation wormhole thought is interesting, but one might think that such intelligent species would have contacted us already in such case, not sneaking around in hidden cultures at ancient times, sounds more reasonable than to speculate in to what possible hidden agendas they would have.¨

I can imagine that maybe in a future that even our sience might be able to create such things like Einstein-rosen bridge type of wormholes, but I don´t think lifeforms would be able to survive it thou, maybe some sort of probes perhaps.


Edit..don´t know if there must be intelligent life out there, It might be possible that we Are the highest intelligent life forms ever created in universe so far, and maybe there is a type of higher life form out there but not as advanced.
Michael

Tonttu
10-13-2010, 03:17 AM
From all that I know, out of body experiences can be easily explained as just being dreams.

I wonder, if you noticed my point: are dreams *just* dreams, ie. a somehow non-real form of reality? Or could the dream state in all its manifestations (OOBEs, SPs, NDEs) be a non-physical form of reality that we should take with as much seriousness as the physical world we normally see when awake? If this is the case, you can't simply write an experience off as "just a dream". And even if a scientist confronted with these things would presuppose them as hallucinations, there is no reason he shouldn't experiment in, study and "map" this allegedly non-real territory. After all, the subject (interacting with the non-physical realm) is fundamental to all human cultures.

I must say I was a hardened materialist, before learning about the DMT production in humans 10 years ago. This lead me to understand the weaknesses of materialist thinking. When a person thinks "dreams are junk", it is habitual, the philosophy behind this is flawed and often there is no philosophy at all.

prometheus
10-13-2010, 03:17 AM
Now I would bet that these UFO are just some aliens from the future looking back into our past to see what type of creatures we WERE since in their time we are all extinct. Kind of like the scenario of the movie A.I. without the time travel aspect.


That makes me wonder why the heck they don´t throw down some fly paper and warn us all??

I agree with you thou, that It is a bit scary if knowledge and technology of mass destruction get´s more available for nuts and terrorists.

Michael

erikals
10-13-2010, 03:25 AM
Megalodon, that's why i said "if".... ;]

prometheus
10-13-2010, 03:25 AM
If you JUST base your thoughts on science and what COULD be possible, I don't see that as fantasy. As erikals pointed out above, imagine OUR science if we survive 100, 1000, 10,000 years from now. We probably wouldn't even recognize ourselves let alone any technology. I think that people today simply cannot imagine what WILL be possible. When it comes to future science, our imaginations are still too limiting.



Considering the vast size of just this ONE universe... I think it would be a statistical impossibility that there isn't intelligent life out there - more and less intelligent than here. I doubt we are that special at all. As soon as we find life on perhaps Mars or Europa, the thought the WE are the only life in the universe will quickly be dashed. Hopefully it will be in our lifetime and before we destroy ourselves. :)

Where´s the other universes? underverse?:)

I agree in some extents to that there´s probably more advanced life than us out there, but there´s also a possibilite that there ain´t any more advanced.

How foolish the most advance life forms out there would be, if they thought there was more advanced life, when in fact there can´t be, but then again no species would probably never know for sure, most likely a waste of time to speculate on it.

Michael

Tonttu
10-13-2010, 04:00 AM
I think you're wasting your time here Tonttu, Elmar is a man of only rational hard science. When it comes to metaphysics, he won't allow his mind to acknowledge it as a "real" science. I doubt that area of science will prove anything within his/our lifetime. But... there is always hope. :)

Too much staring at those volumetric brain slices? :D
Well, I hope he would take a look at those articles about the philosophy of the mind and emergentism, when he has time. That stuff is hardcore and will make most forms of "rationality" look like fluff. When you start trying to solve the problem of individual consciousness within the bounds of materialism, your brain will just melt. Trying to preserve the concept of "I" when explaining the mind as a materialist is like stuffing a cylinder into a rectangular hole.

This is all fun stuff and I really feel there should be more practical self-experimentation instead of just philosophical musings and scientific measurements. From what I understand, the writings of the philosopher Plato were supposed to be something to prepare you for an initiation into the Mysteries, which meant taking psychedelics in a ritual setting. Now, I'm not encouraging anyone to smoke DMT or drink ayahuasca, because you should be able to "get high on your own supply", the pharmacy of the body. Let's see what happens, if the the Spirit Molecule documentary hits mainstream and it brings public demands of more research. I sure hope so!

prometheus
10-13-2010, 04:49 AM
You need to watch more science shows. :)

There may be universes attached end-to-end like soap bubbles. Not to mention other dimensions just a vibration away from ours. This is not fanatic science - this is mainstream. Science is really incredible and when you discover the sheer possibilities of what is possible... WOW.

Yeah..I would like to dig in to those cosmic mysteries if I had the time, and if I can go and expand my lousy math skills someday, It would surely help to comprehend the cosmic stuff.

I have wondered if super massive black holes is attracting so much mass that it simply cant exist in a singularity for all times, and that it collapses into other universes, or should I say that it would need to squeese out that mass by opening a rift to another universe, and at that universe it will show up like some big bang type, or some super quasar type.

Michael

meshpig
10-13-2010, 05:09 AM
I have wondered if super massive black holes is attracting so much mass that it simply cant exist in a singularity for all times, and that it collapses into other universes, or should I say that it would need to squeese out that mass by opening a rift to another universe, and at that universe it will show up like some big bang type, or some super quasar type.

Michael

I think until "dark matter" is understood rifts into other universes is sketchy. Black holes eventually evaporate as steven hawking's "hawking radiation" suggests.

:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2oYS9-Ee9U

meshpig
10-13-2010, 06:35 AM
I wonder, if you noticed my point: are dreams *just* dreams, ie. a somehow non-real form of reality?

What's "reality" but time and space... dreams exist in reality so there's no need to posit them in terms of metaphysics, which is about what doesn't or only might exist.

If matter is curled up in many more dimensions than just the 4 right under your nose what's to say dreams, since they happen in yer grey matter are any more or less in touch with the same extra dimensions than music or gravity?

erikals
10-13-2010, 07:43 AM
True. It's just that was a HUGE "if." But... you are right. "IF" we evolve.... I wonder if we will get the chance? I do hope so.

yes, the question here though is if other species have made it.
have other species been at the "level" we are at now for then been able to evolve 12000 more years or more... (?)

...if they did (the universe is BIG) who's to say that there isn't a chance they could invent technology we thought never would be possible (!?)

...and here is where the fun speculation comes in, if they decided to visit other places in the universe, then what, what would they do, how would they behave :]

 

prometheus
10-13-2010, 08:13 AM
What's "reality" but time and space... dreams exist in reality so there's no need to posit them in terms of metaphysics, which is about what doesn't or only might exist.

If matter is curled up in many more dimensions than just the 4 right under your nose what's to say dreams, since they happen in yer grey matter are any more or less in touch with the same extra dimensions than music or gravity?

Can we dream of something we never have seen or heard of? picking up outworldly vibrations somewhere?, I don´t believe that to be the case, sure dreams are very real and a part of our reality, but as such they are foremost reflections of what we have seen, and experienced ranging from everything from early fetus stage I guess, and it is also distorted and twisted in endless combinations, however I believe they are confined and do not exist in other dimensions than in our mind, until they are shared to the world by how we as single individuals are manifesting those to make them real, by music,art,sience,politics or whathavier.

Michael

oliversimonnet
10-13-2010, 08:21 AM
yes, the question here though is if other species have made it.
have other species been at the "level" we are at now for then been able to evolve 12000 more years or more... (?)

...if they did (the universe is BIG) who's to say that there isn't a chance they could invent technology we thought never would be possible (!?)

...and here is where the fun speculation comes in, if they decided to visit other places in the universe, then what, what would they do, how would they behave :]

 


i wounder if, they would be kind or evil haha.
what would the point be in coming and destroying us?

maybe there have been other species of life that have been around since before humans and they are all evolved and wars have came and gone (in some other area of the universe), so maybe we are a new and Young species, or maybe we could be the 1st

everything has a beginning, maybe we are it, there has to be one species 1st, so maybe we are alone in the universe, for now.

erikals
10-13-2010, 09:16 AM
i wounder if, they would be kind or evil haha.
what would the point be in coming and destroying us?

if they did they would already have done it.
i mean, why wait?

there are quite many factors i could list to why this is not likely.
it's not impossible, just not likely.


everything has a beginning, maybe we are it, there has to be one species 1st, so maybe we are alone in the universe, for now.

it's not impossible, just not likely :]

 

oliversimonnet
10-13-2010, 09:56 AM
if they did they would already have done it.
i mean, why wait?

there are quite many factors i could list to why this is not likely.
it's not impossible, just not likely. 

true :)
i was gona say, maybe they havent got here yet (everything had a 1st time)
byut then again they aparently have alrady been here :)


it's not impossible, just not likely :]

 

so you think that we arent the 1st, that there are probably more before us :)

i mean i recon 100 odd % that there are more species out there,

i mean the universe is soo BIG and we have already found a planet like earth (habitable)

so maybe there are pore planets taht can support life and probably do.

( i do liek this thread hahaha)

Elmar Moelzer
10-13-2010, 10:24 AM
Too much staring at those volumetric brain slices?
No, I was already like that before I moved to that kind of work.



That stuff is hardcore and will make most forms of "rationality" look like fluff.

I spend my spare time rather reading on various concepts for nuclear fusion and even "out there" stuff like reactionless drives, such as the MLT (Mach Lorenz Thruster). Things like these are much more likely and as a bonus have practical applications (if they work).

erikals
10-13-2010, 11:16 AM
one way to look at how evolution works,

this is a too big subject to go into in detail here, but look at how intelligent life has evolved on earth.

what's for example the difference between a dog and a man?
not too much when it comes to behavior i would say.
the difference is more about how intelligent they are.

so if life evolves on other planets, due to gravity etc life form will most likely evolve sort of the same way as on earth, and if you do some simple math the supreme beings will most likely have empathy, like humans, and dogs, and other "intelligent" species.

their culture will be different, but they will have many of the same values that we have here on earth (again, most likely...) like sympathy and empathy.

this brings in the interesting subject about culture.
if they were to reveal themselves it would have a major impact on major religions and cultures.
religious wars would start.

another reason why i don't believe in the 3rd encounters and flying saucer crashes.
aliens would just not be that stupid.

 

Tonttu
10-13-2010, 11:46 AM
What's "reality" but time and space... dreams exist in reality so there's no need to posit them in terms of metaphysics, which is about what doesn't or only might exist.

More specifically, the question here has been can you (or aliens) be conscious without a physical body? I think we all agree the mind exists, so it's "how", not "what".

When Elmar says a Mach-Lorentz Thruster is "much more likely" to exist than disembodied consciousness, he doesn't actually have anything to base this likelihood on. The fact remains: modern scientists have brought practically applicable things out of visionary realms and the surviving shamans of our time claim they obtain medicinal knowledge the same way. In addition we have historical texts and tradition about discoveries brought from the "other side".

Elmar Moelzer
10-13-2010, 11:54 AM
The fact remains: modern scientists have brought practically applicable things out of visionary realms
Uhm, citation of a peer reviewed paper please.


and the surviving shamans of our time claim they obtain medicinal knowledge the same way

A lot of people claim a lot of things. Not all of them are liers, but misslead, but many things that people claim, are simply not that way in reality.

Did you watch the video about James Randis out of body experience?


the question here has been can you (or aliens) be conscious without a physical body

How would that go? Counsciousness is simply a manifestation of the brain doing its very complex work. You switch of the brain and the consciousness is gone.
I know that out of personal expierence.

erikals
10-13-2010, 12:39 PM
...I know that out of personal experience.

˄ do not try this at home...! (http://www.dvdfever.co.uk/reviews/simp1a.jpg) :]

 

oliversimonnet
10-13-2010, 12:53 PM
˄ do not try this at home...! (http://www.dvdfever.co.uk/reviews/simp1a.jpg) :]

 

hahaha
thats a good one

Tonttu
10-13-2010, 01:07 PM
Uhm, citation of a peer reviewed paper please.


http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1067962#post1067962



Did you watch the video about James Randis out of body experience?


Yes and I have interacted with entities while in my dream body myself. It is something you have to see for yourself and explore thoroughly. I can't show it to you with my mind, you have to use yours.



How would that go? Counsciousness is simply a manifestation of the brain doing its very complex work. You switch of the brain and the consciousness is gone.


Please read whole message including links: http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1068058#post1068058

erikals
10-13-2010, 01:44 PM
when it comes to OOBE, it's one word against the other, so no point in speculating on it.
unless someone can prove this is actually a way one can interact.
...something that has yet to been proved through the last thousands of years.


...to quote an earlier post,

...it's not rejected, it's just that the cases who show some potential of credibility are very few and this makes it very hard to study the phenomena, if it at all exists.

 

Elmar Moelzer
10-13-2010, 02:26 PM
http://newtek.com/forums/showthread....62#post1067962[/QUOTE ]

Let me emphasize the word peer reviewed

What I have seen so far are personal accounts. These may be credible, or not. I dont know.


[QUOTE]Please read whole message including links: http://newtek.com/forums/showthread....58#post1068058
Philosophy and some wonky theories.
Again, nothing peer reviewed there. One thing is science, the other thing is religion. All that is talked about here is religion, not science.

Tonttu
10-13-2010, 03:01 PM
Philosophy and some wonky theories.
Again, nothing peer reviewed there. One thing is science, the other thing is religion. All that is talked about here is religion, not science.

Philosophy = religion? :D Fun conclusion to a fun discussion I must say!
I have to make an LW scene of an alien abduction or some other sleep paralysis visitation and we can argue, do rendered aliens dream of electric sheep!

erikals
10-13-2010, 03:34 PM
...and we can argue, do rendered aliens dream of electric sheep!

no... :P
http://www.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://image58.webshots.com/158/1/97/93/406419793eEbRWl_fs.jpg&imgrefurl=http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1406419793066785013eEbRWl&usg=__pYjJQCq5XoBhec9oguBUyX1_TjY=&h=2048&w=1536&sz=629&hl=no&start=40&sig2=W9P40l-vAsm0U2FDSB7ngw&zoom=0&tbnid=De1rSImGyoskuM:&tbnh=136&tbnw=112&ei=ySW2TOyGBsKbOrWHrJ8K&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dalien%2Bsheep%26hl%3Dno%26safe%3Doff% 26biw%3D1089%26bih%3D746%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10 %2C1305&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=758&oei=liS2TJOREMaUOp3hsdAJ&esq=45&page=3&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:40&tx=52&ty=57&biw=1089&bih=746

 

oliversimonnet
10-13-2010, 04:45 PM
@erikals: haha thats one weired looking sheep hahaha

Cageman
10-13-2010, 04:56 PM
Uhm, citation of a peer reviewed paper please.

This is absolutely non-scientific, but I have had dreams where I have worked on a LW-related problem, fiddled with it and solved it. Upon applying what I recolected from the dream, I got the problem solved. This is something that has happened a couple of times actually, and I would be surprised if I'm alone in this.

However, this might not be what you guys are talking about, but I'm absolutely sure that the brain can do amazing things while you are sleeping.

:)

erikals
10-13-2010, 06:32 PM
This is absolutely non-scientific, but I have had dreams where I have worked on a LW-related problem, fiddled with it and solved it. Upon applying what I recolected from the dream, I got the problem solved. This is something that has happened a couple of times actually, and I would be surprised if I'm alone in this.

However, this might not be what you guys are talking about, but I'm absolutely sure that the brain can do amazing things while you are sleeping.

:)

absolutely, some of my best ideas i get just before i fall asleep.
(not sure why, maybe because of bad day rhythm, but i often get REM like states just before i sleep)

the problem of course is as i get this cool idea, i have to write it down...  :]

(don't ask me what the idea was, it's written down, somewhere...)  :]

 

erikals
10-13-2010, 07:30 PM
But then add to that what will more than likely happen here - should we survive growth. The blending of man and machine. It's started already but will continue exponentially in the future by combining computers and humans. The Singularity is Near by Ray Kurzweil shows how this may happen. I think it will - again, if we survive - and I wonder how we will end up changing. Perhaps we will ultimately become a machine civilization. Will we still have the empathy and understanding of a flesh and blood culture?

as i see it "help" from machines is just a temporary stage.
i don't think this will reach very far, simply because of the chances of errors.
the next is DNA manipulation, but once again this is quite risky as well, as the chances of errors are once again, high.

"be careful what you ask for, you might get it"



If you think about it, there could be any number of reasons for this occurring. Could be just a severe malfunction, could be sabotage, could be dimensional travel instability, could be another force bringing it down. There haven't been THAT many crashes to think that it is a common occurrence. This really goes back to what you said earlier - we have no idea what kind of technologies will be available to us or them in the future. I don't think we can rule out something like this just because we don't understand HOW it could happen.

well, has there been any crashes at all?
has there been any aliens here at all?

why not just send "radio"-controlled probes to do the job? > much easier.
i'm sure they would have some kind of high-tech virtual reality device so it seemed that they were here anyway.
...much-much safer, more efficient too.

 

Mr Rid
10-14-2010, 01:55 AM
Intelligent, objective summary on UFOs as "mystery"- http://www.ufoskeptic.org/
The Disclosure Project is interesting to ponder- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk

I became utterly intrigued by the paranormal when I was 12 after coming across a couple of books full of supposedly 'True stories of the beyond!.' I worked in the school libray in Jr High and proceeded to read every book on anything related to ghosts, aliens, monsters, and psychic phenomenon. Then continuing on into high school, I read every book on the paranormal in their library, and some at the public library when I began to realize there was absolutely NO verifiable proof of ANY of it whatsoever. 99% of it is explainable by non-mysterious causes, vague hearsay, hallucinations (minor strokes and neurologic disorders can cause bizarre visions- look up The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat), or exaggeration and outright hoax (a LOT of that). Maybe 1% is truly unexplainable with highly credible witnesses and or evidence. But that doesnt mean its proof of anything other than perhaps a limitation of having enough info to explain it as something less fun and exotic as aliens or supernatural forces that humans need so desperately to believe in. We all crave mystery, and every one seems to have an exciting ghost, UFO, vision, or premonition story.

I've had several dreams of specific events that were unexplainably precognitive in nature (always within a few hours after the dream), but that were also too rare, inane and unpredictable to be of any practical use (similarly with occasional but verifiable results in remote viewing research). I've seen three startling nighttime UFOs (two of which were city-wide observations) that all later turned out to be readily explained as something earthly (an unusual illuminated advertising plane, a rocket with stages, and a satellite burn in). I know how the eyes may view a seemingly illogical sight and the mind will paint in more relatable details as something other than what it really is.

These days I approach such topics with great skepticism.

zarti
10-14-2010, 03:26 AM
they are here , but they can do noything to us . they hide away from us when we are pissed off .

they do not know even where to hide :D ( like this example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRuINsNf1S8&NR=1 )

but ... be careful : they own the night

and when ma' calls you to go back home early , there must be a reason ;) ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdWrCTMuQ1M )

there is nothing to worry guys . :beerchug:


edit : and another one :: just to honor this thread's title ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J07v7-Nb7dE

Elmar Moelzer
10-14-2010, 06:05 AM
The Singularity is Near by Ray Kurzweil shows how this may happen.

I know about the Singularity idea and the idea that one could store someones "mind" in a computer.
The idea does of course miss several points:
Our brain function is not limited to what is happening in the brain itself.
There are also chemical processes in our bodies and the bodies of others that can affect our brain function. E.g. hormones and pheromones. Your sexual organs produce hormones that can affect your thinking BIG TIME. Then you also have the pheromones produced by others. E.g. whether we like someone or not, can also be determined by that.
So, once you separate the brain from the body, you get problems.

erikals
10-14-2010, 06:17 AM
...So, once you separate the brain from the body, you get problems.
...unless one use the trick of affecting the brain from outside the body.
(ultrasound for example can do this afaik)

erikals
10-14-2010, 06:30 AM
You also say efficient - but then remember earlier you said we would find it difficult to realize what technology is possible. If we could go to Mars just as easily as sending robot explorers... humans would be on Mars. If aliens could be here just as easily as robot probes - meaning that they don't care how much energy it takes - then why wouldn't they decide to make the trip?

again, they shouldn't need to with the technology they have.
neither will we in the near future, like i explained earlier.
sure, it would probably be cool for them, but it's better to minimize the danger of crash landings compared to not to.


And then again... how do we "KNOW" that any encounters (if there really ARE any) are not using robots that we merely mistake as aliens? Nano probes could be sent and recreate everything they need from local base materials. Perhaps nanotech is being used to recreate an entire ship with crew? There are stranger concepts written by experienced sci-fi writers that are just a plausible.

humanoid robots are unfortunately quite impractical, microscopic probes /robots or forms of waves are much more efficient.


Perhaps moving from one parallel world to another is easy for other civilizations?
yes, could be.


The point is... no one can dismiss it out-of-hand just because it 'sounds implausible.
right, and i never did, i just said that the crash landings and kidnappings are highly unlikely.

as for aliens spying on earth, i never said that was unlikely...
haven't really made up my mind on that one...

meshpig
10-14-2010, 07:07 AM
The problem with the idea of a super "advanced" civilisation is that civilisation itself so far hasn't advanced so much as kept pace with an exponential growth in population since Sumeria/ancient Mesopotamia for want of a starting point.

- ie. none of the technology we take for granted these days would have happened in such short succession if not for the exponential increase in number of people on the planet. "accidents" which lead to some form of forward movement or "progress" are more likely in larger aggregates.

So, if you're looking for an intelligent species in the universe who has radio capabilities you might also be looking at the random events between when Marconi figured out the science of radio and WW2 which made it an imperative.

Marconi might have been forgotten for another hundred years like Babbage's calculator in the C19 when people couldn't figure out why you would need one.

It's safe to say any super advanced species which understands radio frequencies as we transmit them would have to be more similar than exotic because radio frequency suits us, but not even yer domestic dog. That also makes 'em potentially dangerous.

If only too because "science fiction" is social realism...

Elmar Moelzer
10-14-2010, 07:58 AM
Mind play:
Assuming there are aliens that have the capability to travel through intersteallar space at relativistic speeds.
They visit earth.
According to UFO mystery, they dont want to be discovered.
Yet, they frequently do obviously quite stupid things that lead to their discovery. There is no logic to that. If I possess this advanced technology, then I can make sure that I wont be discovered. An abduction for the sake of an experiment is e.g. complete unnecessary. They would be able to clone human beings (or the interesting parts of them) by analyzing our DNA. No need to abduct anybody.
They would DEFINITELY not land into some random idiots backyard to have a coffee and talk about life, god and the universe and just this guy. Why? Because he is so trustworthy? Obviously he is not, because he emmediately went and wrote a book about it.
There is this famous abduction story that is often cited. It contains a supposedly very detailed description of a "cosmic trade route". "Experts" want to have determinded that this is indeed a real star constellation.
Again, completely idiotic. Star constellations only look the way they do from earths perspective. You move anywhere else in space and they will look very differently, because they are a two dimensional projection of a 3D- actually a 4D arrangement of stars that can appear close together from our perspective (say x and y plane), but really be thousands of lightyears apart in the z- direction (assuming z points to us).
Again, makes no sense whatsoever.
And so things go on and on.
On the "brilliant ideas" or "visions of future events" that people supposedly had in their dreams. How many times did you dream of things that did not happen? You sleep 365 times a year (some people more often) and you will usually dream something. It is quite logical that at some point you will dream something that you will remember once something simillar happens to you. Often we also subconsciously know something that we do consciously not want to accept. But again, this is all rationally explainable.
Anyway, out of those 365 dreams that you have had every year, all the other that you had made no sense whatsoever and did not predict anything whatsoever and you forgot them just as quickly. It is a random by chance event. You gave it a meaning after the fact.
It is like I was to predict your weather for tomorrow (without looking at any data, just by chance). I will probably get it wrong many times, but I will ignore all those failed attempts and just remember that one time, I got it right. Then I will go and say "Ha! I can predict the future".
Think about it.

prometheus
10-14-2010, 08:04 AM
Amen to that Elmar:agree:

Michael

erikals
10-14-2010, 10:24 AM
...still, is it impossible that beings spy on earth somehow?

zarti
10-14-2010, 10:25 AM
yes , aliens are flat idiots compared to us ...



how can vehicle have this shape ?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Ptkky2OnE&p=B7E615A922C263E9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_rR1IrVkik&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8RwdLtdfw&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydFPXKBI080&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYBhJd-Lc3Q&

haven't they seen audi R8 yet ?!

erikals
10-14-2010, 10:35 AM
...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYBhJd-Lc3Q&

+ the quote... "When does the UFO on the upper left corner move?"

prometheus
10-14-2010, 10:42 AM
Nahh..time for some Men in black or some x-files..:)

Uhhmm..I just noticed another U.F.O warning article published here in sweden based on an American article from old military retired personal working at Atomic bomb facilities.

Some officer called Robert Salas who was responsable for the Nukes at the Malmstrom Air Force Base says there were alien vehicles that was spying and those couldn´t have been man made..O well.

there might be aliens among us hiding and doing everything they can to convince us that they do not exists, Elmar might suspeciously be one of those:)..working with high tech graphics.


Michael

erikals
10-14-2010, 10:45 AM
yes, programmers are the most likely aliens i think... ;]

hence the denial... :O

 

Elmar Moelzer
10-14-2010, 11:14 AM
I am not a programmer. I am an artist who also does some programming (not the heavy weight stuff). I do design software though. That is a difference.
I am mainly an artist though. Artist can appear pretty alien to "normal" people though.

erikals
10-14-2010, 12:23 PM
"normal" people... show me One!...  :]

bazsa73
10-14-2010, 12:33 PM
"Snow is falling
Horse is farting
On his a s s
the boss is sliding"

RonB
10-14-2010, 01:46 PM
Have you ever seen a UFO?

I have in the middle of the night while driving highway 80 east through the Nevada desert. My fishing buddy and I were going to Minnesota for a camping trip. It was a moon lit night with some of big cumulus clouds scattered around. About 30 degrees up way off in front of us appeared a string of six big lights. Moving for all like roller coaster cars one after the other up, down and around following the leader. They dove into a huge cloud and the cloud lit up as they passed through. They exited the cloud heading in our direction, passing overhead very high up and were gone. The whole show lasted only seconds. I later found out that particular configuration is called the String of Pearls. Even though I believe what we saw to be a UFO or UFO's, I am nether here or there when it comes to UFO's, I can take them or leave them. (Below is a link to a little movie I made years later and my friend confirmed that is exactly what we saw.)

But I got to thinking about that experience and about visiting aliens and oh, by the way where do they come from? Some believe they have been coming here a long time, a long time by our meager standards anyway. It's even been postulated that these aliens started our human race and are keeping tabs on us. Lets just say for argument's sake that aliens are visiting us regularly. That brings the question of where do they live? I don't know for sure but I assume for some reason it's not all that close to us relatively speaking. Lets propose we do a search within say a radius of 12 light years. I picked that number because recently a star with a planet was discovered 10.5 light years away from us, relatively a stone's throw. Unfortunately that planet is a gas giant, an unlikely candidate for our alien's home. Could there be others better suited that we just haven't discovered within those 12 light years? Maybe, but then again it's a coin toss but not likely. So how far away do you think they live? How far away do people that ponder these things on a regular basis think they live?

Well interestingly where aliens come from has gotten farther away as we have gained more knowledge of the universe in general. For instance back in HG Wells day and up to the late 1930's Mars was the likely planet. Most folks claiming close encounters with alien types called them Martians and Martian was the accepted name for an alien. Then sometime in the 1950's Venus became the resident planet of choice and we didn't hear much about Martians anymore, then it was the benevolent Venusians. Who by the way were described as...well, Aryan like, whiter than Caucasian, more blonde and more perfect than any of us. Nothing was mentioned of their dancing ability, except for the odd landing now and then in New Orleans during Mardi Gras, where they fit right in with their silver lame body suits. I made that up. But these days you rarely if ever find anyone claiming to have met an alien from our solar system, that's really old school.

It all changed with Barney and Betty Hill who claimed to have been abducted by extraterrestrials on September 19, 1961. Their story was the first abduction claim carried nation wide. It was also published as a best selling book in 1966 called, "The Interrupted Journey", and even made into a television movie starring James Earl Jones. Around 1968 a model and maps were constructed from Betty Hill's memory of star charts she claimed to have seen aboard the craft. Those maps and models apparently pointed to a binary star system about 40 light years away called Zeta Reticuli. The binary stars, Zeta1 and Zeta2 rotate around each other and are both relatively the size of our own sun. Although their chromospheres, a measurement of a star's light, suggests they are only 2 billion years old. They are far enough apart to be seen with the naked eye as two separate stars from the southern hemisphere. There has been ongoing debates about those maps ever since. Now considering light travels 5,869,713,600,000 miles in a year...That is pronounced 5 Trillion 869 billion 713 million 600 hundred thousand miles per year. Forty times that number is a fair piece to come and go from! Carl Sagan once took up with the doubters and called the maps just a bunch of randomly drawn lines. None the less it's now generally agreed by UFO'ers that the most common form of aliens, the small guy's with big eyes and tear drop shaped heads, the Greys as they are called, come from the Zeta Reticuli system. Although no planet has yet been discovered in the Zeta system. But that is no big surprise as our planet discovery techniques are still in the early stages of development. But I am not placing any bets, personally I think the Zeta system will turn out to be a wash and go the way of the Martians and Venusians.

The question I keep coming back to is: how in hell did the aliens ever find our little dust spec of a planet amide the chaotic vastness of the universe in the first place? A toss off answer would be, well they are way more advanced than us and can do things technically that we can't even dream about. Then that brings up another question, what makes our planet, and apparently us, so fascinating that they regularly travel beaucoup miles to come hang out in and fly around these skies and even oceans? Don't they have more important things to do at home like prune alien roses or something? I haven't come up with any satisfying answers to these questions for myself. If you do let me know, I would love to hear them.

http://www.dahothouse.com/work/UFO.mov

Elmar Moelzer
10-14-2010, 02:09 PM
Barney and Betty Hill
Yeah and that is the story that I was referring to in one of my previous posts.
Again, the star chart does not make sense. Constellations as we are familiar with, only look this way if you look up into the sky from earth.
Once you move away from earth, the further you go, the less the constellations will look like ours. This is because a star constellation that we see, really is a 2d- projection of a 4 (four!) dimensional space.
They may look like they are close to each other if you look at the star pattern from earth, but their distance from earth can vary so much. In addition to this, the stars are probably not even at the position anymore that they were at, when their light started on its journey to reach us today. They might actually be somewhere else now, only we dont see it, because of the time it takes for their light to reach us (thus 4d).
So if you have a aliens traveling at faster than light speeds, they would not use star maps with positions of stars as they appear to use now. Instead they would have maps with the positions of stars as they actually are now. Does that make sense?
In any case, the familiar star constellations would look very different if looked at from any other position in space than earths.
So this star map that they supposedly saw there, makes absolutely no sense.
There are many more points where the whole story falls apart, but this is supposedly the one that is the "proof" for he UFO believers. Only that it is actually the best spot to disprove the story.

Elmar Moelzer
10-14-2010, 02:42 PM
Here is a good video with Carl Sagan explaining one issue with the story very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUCr9OorXU

oliversimonnet
10-14-2010, 03:14 PM
Here is a good video with Carl Sagan explaining one issue with the story very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUCr9OorXU

thanks for the link, that was pretty interesting :)

zarti
10-14-2010, 03:30 PM
The question I keep coming back to is: how in hell did the aliens ever find our little dust spec of a planet amide the chaotic vastness of the universe in the first place?

it is as easy as remembering " where i have parked my car today ?? " ...

( while i have been doing that everyday , for many years , at the same place )


=)

erikals
10-14-2010, 05:21 PM
 
...also, we can't dismiss that several of the UFO observations are actually "secret" military experiments.

(RonB, that's not too far away from what i saw... just 1 though for 1 second...)
 

erikals
10-14-2010, 06:01 PM
well, is the Chinese military not lying, or is it aliens from outer space?
what is more likely?

or is it a military craft from another country?

you have to look at what is more likely here. IMO
aliens from outer space sort of comes last on the list when one compares it to other more probable options.

 

Mr Rid
10-14-2010, 10:12 PM
Ever wonder why aliens anal probe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz7sBTHtcLU

Mr Rid
10-14-2010, 10:28 PM
Not true. ...you would still have to get lightyears away before you would notice a change. ..

I assumed that's what Elmar meant.

meshpig
10-15-2010, 01:01 AM
I dunno, a few years ago here there was a reported sighting of the virgin mary on Bondi beach which actually ran in all the news of the day.

Ok sure. A sighting of the virgin mary, who doesn't exist and it turned out to be a fence post which some ignorant dullard couldn't distinguish from mere resemblance.

Ipso facto there aren't any freakin aliens and most people aren't good at plane spotting.

- One of the relevant TV shows... "the universe"(?) describes how in LA(?) during a blackout the authorities received thousands of panicky calls about all these strange lights in the sky. Um, you mean the stars?

meshpig
10-15-2010, 01:22 AM
... I think http://www.rael.org sums it up.

Elmar Moelzer
10-15-2010, 02:59 AM
The distances these constellations are are SO far away that even if you were to stand at Barnards star - 5+ lightyears away - our constellations would not change.

Uhm, I was thinking on a galactic scale and definitely not on a scale of <5 lightyears. There is a very low chance that there are any habitable planets within 5 lightyears from earth, so of course I was talking about much larger distances. I thought that was logical.


You assign YOUR logic but it has nothing to do with THEIR logic.

Logic, like math is a universal language. You can not talk about "my logic" and "your logic". There is only one logic and it is the same across the entire universe and every species capable of it.
Just like math. One plus one is always two. There is difference between "my one" and "your one".


You are saying "They don't want to be discovered; they do stupid things (using YOUR logic and reasoning); ergo they do not exist.
No, I am not saying that they dont exist, I am just saying that it seems unlikely and that other explanations in this context seem more likely, especially when you take these arguments into consideration.
As I said earlier in this thread: It is impossible to proof a negative. So I can not proof that there are no aliens visiting earth. However, I am not the one making the extraordinary claim. So I do not have to proof my point. It is the people that claim that there are aliens, or visitors from parallel universes, or timetravelers (the Vulcan science council says that time travel is impossible ;)), or anything metaphysical going on here instead of the more "down to earth" explanations for the same phenomena, that do actually exist as well.

meshpig
10-15-2010, 03:42 AM
Uhm, I was thinking on a galactic scale, not on a scale of 5 lightyears. There is a very low chance that there are any habitable planets within 5 lightyears from earth, so of course I was talking about much larger distances.

Extremely low, not likely even at 16 lr's either;

Nearest stars;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars
Nearest galaxies;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_galaxies

Rayek
10-18-2010, 10:59 PM
Extremely low, not likely even at 16 lr's either;

Nearest stars;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars
Nearest galaxies;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_galaxies

It depends. Life in Earth is abundant even in the most extreme of environments, and life based on other elements/energies could, in theory, proliferate just about anywhere. Whether this is intelligent life (what exactly defines intelligence, anyhow?) remains the question. One guy wrote a book on the probability of our Sun being quite aware of itself - just on a time scale that is by far broader than ours. Who is to say our entire eco-system isn't "conscious"? (Sheldrake)

Don't forget: a human's senses and brain are incredibly limited in relation to what is really going on in our surroundings and energy wave lengths/time. 99.99999999999% or more is filtered and most we cannot even sense at all.

meshpig
10-19-2010, 12:14 AM
It depends. Life in Earth is abundant even in the most extreme of environments, and life based on other elements/energies could, in theory, proliferate just about anywhere. Whether this is intelligent life (what exactly defines intelligence, anyhow?) remains the question. One guy wrote a book on the probability of our Sun being quite aware of itself - just on a time scale that is by far broader than ours. Who is to say our entire eco-system isn't "conscious"? (Sheldrake)



I agree, just that out of the billions of species which have been and gone here on earth already ( and the many more as yet unknown) only one of them has built machines capable of exploring space.

-Even if there is an earth like planet within 50 light years the chances that a crazy, over intelligent ape who builds machines like us is necessarily going to be there are slim again because even out of all the apes and humans that have existed Cro Magnon are just a fluke, a complete accident and one which might not have survived. The search for "ET" and the fact of finding life on other planets or elsewhere in the universe are different things.

- I doubt "consciousness" is an adequate definition of life or intelligence because it is an effect of being... an effect of being an animal whose particular awareness involves waking and sleeping ( being conscious and unconscious).

If the Sun is aware it's not going to be affected by anything we do... it has rather a long time to think being the sun too so it's probably not interested
in the sports results:)

meshpig
10-19-2010, 01:27 AM
Now you're getting silly.

Just because YOU don't see their logic does not mean it is illogical. Walking down a path a man who is thirsty turns left into the rocky section as opposed to going right where it's nice and grassy and you see a lake in the distance. YOU think it is illogical he goes left when obviously there is water if he goes to the right. He is not being logical according to what YOU see. But the man KNOWS this area and he knows that the path to the right has a huge patch of quicksand. Going to the left will detour around the quicksand and bring him to the same lake. His move was logical to HIM. Just because you didn't understand HIS logic does not make it illogical.

Logic is VERY different when different people view it - especially when they do not know the entire story. :D

That's beside the point. The logic of numbers for example doesn't change just because someone illogically gets the sum of 4 x 4 as 11.

4x4 is 16 here and everywhere else because numbers are like a markup code given by "nature" and not from a subjective point of view. Ask yourself where the number 4 is in time and space? Everywhere and nowhere and most if not all life forms on earth know the difference between 0 and 1 whether they know it or not.

pooby
10-19-2010, 01:29 AM
Just because YOU don't see their logic does not mean it is illogical. Walking down a path a man who is thirsty turns left into the rocky section as opposed to going right where it's nice and grassy and you see a lake in the distance. YOU think it is illogical he goes left when obviously there is water if he goes to the right. He is not being logical according to what YOU see. But the man KNOWS this area and he knows that the path to the right has a huge patch of quicksand. Going to the left will detour around the quicksand and bring him to the same lake. His move was logical to HIM. Just because you didn't understand HIS logic does not make it illogical.

With all due respect, I would suggest that your example is an illustration of the differing knowledge and perspective of two individuals, rather than logic.
True Logic is independant of knowledge or perspective. Of course, one can apply a warped or incomplete logic based on a lack of the full facts, that might not be the same as another individual, but that's not really worth bringing into the mix.

oliversimonnet
10-19-2010, 01:32 AM
Now you're getting silly.

Just because YOU don't see their logic does not mean it is illogical. Walking down a path a man who is thirsty turns left into the rocky section as opposed to going right where it's nice and grassy and you see a lake in the distance. YOU think it is illogical he goes left when obviously there is water if he goes to the right. He is not being logical according to what YOU see. But the man KNOWS this area and he knows that the path to the right has a huge patch of quicksand. Going to the left will detour around the quicksand and bring him to the same lake. His move was logical to HIM. Just because you didn't understand HIS logic does not make it illogical.

Logic is VERY different when different people view it - especially when they do not know the entire story. :D

thats a good story about "logic", and a good way of explaining what you meen.

meshpig
10-19-2010, 02:14 AM
Uhmm... in regards to the conversation we have been having about logic, my example is perfect. How do WE know what the aliens know and how can YOU assume YOUR logic is correct as opposed to what THEY know.

It's the other way around. The logic of WE, THEM, YOU and YOUR is firstly grammar and then linguistics. We will only ever know what the aliens know by applying logic like in the children's flick ET where they used the cycle of fifths:)

meshpig
10-19-2010, 02:26 AM
See my response above to Pooby. We are NOT talking numbers here and my response was to Elmars statement.

Edit: You can't equate numbers and mathematics to actions. That doesn't work and is not logical. :)

Isn't equating numbers and mathematics to actions the singular technological genius of computers?

meshpig
10-19-2010, 02:29 AM
No. You sum it up much too simplistically. WE, YOU, THEM, YOUR is not about grammar here, it is about HOW "they" think and what "they" know - "we" don't know what "they" know and therefore cannot assign logic. Until "we" can have the same point of view as "them," we will not know what is logical or not. :jam:

You've changed your tune a bit on the subject of "intelligent design" it seems?:)

meshpig
10-19-2010, 02:57 AM
So you can equate numbers and mathematics to the actions of aliens where you have no idea why they are doing what they are doing? If the actions they are taking are for a reason that is unknown to us... then how can you assign anything to it but a variable that we don't know? Wow... a puzzle.

Too much reliance on this vague if not questionable notion of aliens. The same universe is always just under yer nose too.

Metaphysics is not science or philosophy it's just stuff which will linger and make cosmology more confounded.

The fact is the future doesn't exist yet in every scenario. Sure if you believe in hope go ahead and hope but I don't understand why the F you would want to believe in an ultimately superior, super advanced civilisation in the first place? Isn't that an earthbound story?

I've answered your next post... on the subject of cryogenic suspension and living forever.:)

meshpig
10-19-2010, 03:22 AM
- it would prove that other civilizations have made it past their barbaric period and were able to refrain from destroying themselves. That's a pretty good reason. :)


It is indeed. Many civilisations have survived though but don't blame the so called "barbarians", they're a civilisation unto themselves. The Huns, Ghengis Khan; mobile civilisations who didn't leave much architecture behind them... talking of alien civilisations:)

bazsa73
10-19-2010, 04:26 AM
Interesting topic and all.

safetyman
10-19-2010, 06:00 AM
I don't believe in Aliens, but I have seen a Predator or two. Still haven't seen 3, though -- it's on my NetFlix list. :)

I read somewhere that some people are already vying for the Alien Ambassador job, as crazy as that sounds. I believe, due to all the movies, tv, fake ufo sightings, etc. that we have become sort of used to the idea of one day meeting dudes from another planet. So when if finally does happen, we won't be all "OMG -- Aliens! How can this be??", and we'll handle it without a lot of heart attacks in the streets and such.

meshpig
10-19-2010, 07:22 AM
I don't believe in Aliens, but I have seen a Predator or two. Still haven't seen 3, though -- it's on my NetFlix list. :)

I read somewhere that some people are already vying for the Alien Ambassador job, as crazy as that sounds. I believe, due to all the movies, tv, fake ufo sightings, etc. that we have become sort of used to the idea of one day meeting dudes from another planet. So when if finally does happen, we won't be all "OMG -- Aliens! How can this be??", and we'll handle it without a lot of heart attacks in the streets and such.

Yes but what do you think Montezuma, the "emperor" of the Aztec world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moctezuma_II
said to the Conquistador?

Freakin don't worry about it. I've seen someone sign over a cool $quarter mil to some UFO cult just so they could head up their magazine as if. Money is stranger than any alien life form:D

erikals
10-19-2010, 07:56 AM
 
about other aliens logic,
i somewhat explained this before.

all intelligent life on earth is based on the same logic, this logic is based on what benefits the individual creatures get, and evolve from there.

thousands of these creatures have basically the same mentality as a source, and for aliens from other planets do something else is illogical. (billion creatures on earth have chosen, and continue to choose, the same path)

even completely different built creatures (non-silicon based lifeforms) is believed to have the same logic.

simply because anything else would be self-destructive /non-beneficial in the long run.

 

Elmar Moelzer
10-19-2010, 08:24 AM
You can not build spaceships without higher math. Math is logic and universal.
If you do not want to be discovered, then you will avoid things that will lead to your discovery. This is logical.
If you do want to be discovered then why not show yourself in public.
"bring me to your leaders" and "all your bases belogs to us" and all that, you know the movie ;)
Anyway, so they either want to be discovered or they dont. If they dont want to be discovered then why do they abduct or even worse, invite people onto their spaceships, people that will then go and tell others?
Anyway, this is going nowhere. I am trying to bring reasonable arguments here and it does not help. You can not reason with a "believer". Because wherever believe comes in, all reason is turned off.

erikals
10-19-2010, 08:36 AM
 
math, reminds me of this thread... :]
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110292

 

erikals
10-19-2010, 09:46 AM
 
an example on non-beneficial "evolution"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rB5ToejoAg

 

Hieron
10-19-2010, 10:09 AM
I like the bits about old civilisations and nicely cut stones, seemingly similar templeshapes around the world and hieroglyphs showing spaceships.

Usually they come down to assuming ancient civ's were crap engineers, disregarding the fact that most old temples resemble a pile of stones which is more stable than almost any structure and just seeing a vague resemblance. Still great to watch/read about.. (Discovery channel has some retarded shows though)


For the rest, personally, I assume there's more intelligent life forms out there that may or may not end up here one day. Chances to me seem alot bigger that before then the human race sort of annihilated itself (oops, was it on?) and any sightings now have a more sensible (or less cool) source.

But I'm always interested.. :)

oliversimonnet
10-19-2010, 11:33 AM
this may be of abit of waht we are talking about at the moment, but i had to post this
imagine if this is what they would do, or are like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYzr0jNBqp8

erikals
10-19-2010, 11:47 AM
talk about B movie.... :]

oliversimonnet
10-19-2010, 02:06 PM
ok come on fellas, lets not have any arguments :), we are all entitle to our own opinions.

erikals
10-19-2010, 02:15 PM
I can come up with MANY reasons for doing what they are doing

hmm, like...?
just curious...

oliversimonnet
10-19-2010, 02:45 PM
Ever watch The 4400?

- Humans from our future coming back to change things to alter the future. You can come up with dozens of reasons why and how to do this. Accidents happen. Time travel stories allow MANY scenarios.

- Aliens could have a plan that requires the solving of certain puzzles - cow mutilations, abductions, sightings. How many scenarios can you come up with that would/could incorporate these items? Then if the puzzle is solved, we get: the prize, or knowledge, or get to meet them, or grow up.

- Perhaps it's all just to prepare us for their arrival. They've done this before and know how to do it.

- Or maybe it's various species that are testing us to see if we're worthy of surviving?

- Or perhaps we're being tested to see if it's worth their while to end up using us as a food supply. (Like V.)

- Perhaps the crashes are two aliens fighting each other and one of them won.

This is just off the top of my head. As I said, you can come up with MANY possibilities - and of course they may not exist at all. But the fact remains, we don't know what their intentions are nor can we assign logic since we have no idea WHY they are doing what they are doing. And that's even IF these things are really happening. It's fun and interesting to speculate, but since we do not know the motivations behind the actions, we cannot say they are logical or not.

some pretty cool ways to look at it.
i do enjoy sometimes just thinking and coming up Worth reasons why.

and you are rite, we don't know what they wanna do, or even if they are doing it, but its always nice to live in hope that we are not alone.
i don't believe or disbelieve personally, but i am sure that some wear out there, there is life and maybe they have visited us and maybe they haven't.

as i said before that's my opinion, and we are all welcome to shear your opinions that's what this thread was all about, hearing all your opinions.

oliversimonnet
10-19-2010, 03:18 PM
I don't think it's a matter of being right about it, it's just a matter of keeping an open mind and trying to find reasons that fit the events. Regarding opinions.... yes, we all have them, but not all of them are "right." My sister is of the belief that the earth is only 6000 years old because she believes in the bible verbatim. Is she right? Most likely not. All evidence points to the contrary. Science would say that she is very wrong. So you CAN have an opinion, but that doesn't make it right nor does it buffer you from people stating the reasons WHY that opinion is incorrect. ;D

very well said/explained Megalodon
it all deals sown to...every one had an opinion and who are we to tell them that they are wrong even if they are or even if we KNOW they are.

erikals
10-19-2010, 04:08 PM
true, many scientists disagree   :]

erikals
10-19-2010, 04:43 PM
 
well, the difficult thing is to find a scenario / hypothesis that could be likely, that one then could prove /test.

i wrote about some obstacles when it comes to that earlier though, so did others.

none of the things you write in post #169 are impossible,
but a meteor looking like Mickey Mouse destroying earth tomorrow is also not impossible,
it's just very-very-very unlikely...

unless a hypothesis /theory can be proven, or can have a chance to be tested out somehow, it can go on forever, without being proven right /wrong, just like this thread.

there's always some hope though that a guy can come up with a new interesting idea, one that should be investigated.

 

erikals
10-19-2010, 05:09 PM
like in an earlier post, yes, aliens visiting earth from other planets is not likely, as they most likely would send probes instead, maybe at nano-scale level, or other...

the hypothesis of aliens coming from a parallel dimension though is interesting, as it would be more likely for these aliens to be less intelligent and therefor could have "manned" crafts, instead of probes. and if so was, they might only be as intelligent as us.

we haven't been able to prove that such a dimension exists, but some scientists have some interesting theories. maybe the CERN project will explain some things...

erikals
10-19-2010, 05:38 PM
he has some cool ways of seeing things,...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8dcb8iKSM
...don't agree to everything, still...

zarti
10-19-2010, 06:44 PM
we are all ALIENS in LITE edition :D





.

oliversimonnet
10-20-2010, 12:29 AM
Fortunately we don't have to agree with everything. Most likely everyone can't be right. Then again...

At least it makes us THINK! :alien:

i agree with that.


we are all ALIENS in LITE edition :D
.

hahaha, true, if aliens/other life forms do exist that makes us aliens to them.

Elmar Moelzer
10-20-2010, 05:44 AM
It is of course impossible for me to prove the negative. I can not prove that there are no aliens visiting earth and abducting people and doing all sorts of crazy stuff that makes no sense whatsoever (to me anyway).
But, I am not the one making the extraordinary claim.
So I should not be the one brining the proof.
This is a problem in general in this world. People are way to willing to accept claims made by other people as fact, even though they are not presented with any tangible evidence. This is why so much fraud is successful.
The number of people claiming to have been abducted is not that relevant. So far there have been 800 so called abductees, most of them after the Barney and Betty Hill case. Considering that this has been 50 years ago and that the world population is roughly 7 billion, those 800 are statistically a very low number.
Anyway, it is impossible for me to prove a negative.
Lets replace the UFOs with another claim.
A: "I have a pink dragon in my garage."
B: "That is interesting, may I see him?"
A: "No, he is invisible and will only show himself to me allone. He is very shy you know."
B: "So does he make any noise?"
A: (whispers) "No, he would be very quiet"
B: "Does he have a scent?"
A: "Yes, but he smells just like the paint of which I have some old cans tored in my garage. So you can not really keep the smells apart".
B: "So what if I put some flour on the floor and see whether he will leave some tracks in it?".
A: "He is flying, so he wont leave tracks"
B: "So what I tried to catch him with a net?"
A: "He can make himself really thin and slip through the net."

You can already see, I could spin this story on and on until all eternity and no matter what B says, our A here will come up with a way to counter B.
Of course this is a ridiculous claim, but how does it differ from all the UFO claims, other than by the fact that there are more people behind the claim? Almost all, please note that again, after Barney and Betty Hill got sooo much attention with their story.

Please forgive me for being sceptical, but I just can not blindly believe anything that anybody says without any proof, any hard, physical evidence, anything beyond this persons word.

zarti
10-20-2010, 06:19 AM
we are all ALIENS in LITE edition :D

LITE = Limited Edition

( not all features available / enabled ) ;)

erikals
10-20-2010, 04:01 PM
no, i disagree, i think you should read his posts over again.

it's not about excluding the possibility, but there is no good reason to pursue it, as the "evidence" that has been presented till date is beyond vague.

i think his posts makes perfect sense.
we're kind of walking in circles now...

erikals
10-20-2010, 05:12 PM
no, they should pursue it, but like i said before, there is too little /bad data for scientists to use, unfortunately.
so, it stops there. you can't find something that is impossible to investigate.

as for UFO cases that can be investigated, they usually are.
but again, it's extremely limited how much they can be investigated, as the "evidence" is,... extremely limited /vague.

 

erikals
10-20-2010, 05:56 PM
hm, did Elmar say that? where?

um, how can you have great tools to investigate ghosts if they don't exist?

as far as what it is, i explained that earlier too, hoax, mistakes, people having fun, military projects, science projects, secret projects, seldom natural phenomenas, drugs, hallucinations, the list goes on and on...

there are some things that are unexplained though, but these are being worked on.
but again, flying saucers and human kidnappings by aliens is usually put on ice, as the evidence is so vague or non-present, or like above, a hoax, mistakes... etc etc etc...

 

crashnburn
10-20-2010, 06:04 PM
The problem is sorting genuine from hoax. We live in a money orientated world and for a lot of media companies they don't care whats true, just what gets viewing figures or people buying their books, magazines etc. So to me this means that anything genuine can be lost in the swamp of mass media junk spoiling or destroying the integrity of genuine reports, stories etc.

Cageman
10-20-2010, 06:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfvhdmhQy4

I'm absolutely convinced that there are things out there that we do not know how to explain.

The truth is out there!

:)

crashnburn
10-20-2010, 06:21 PM
Nice one Cageman. Maybe there was once life on Mars, it's possible isn't it?

erikals
10-20-2010, 06:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfvhdmhQy4

I'm absolutely convinced that there are things out there that we do not know how to explain.

The truth is out there!

:)

what does his Apollo team-mates say about it, is there any video on that?

Cageman
10-20-2010, 06:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUx1SURbb3g&feature=related

What is he insinuating?

Cageman
10-20-2010, 06:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2qaZFC2PtM&feature=related

Food for thought... I guess... :)

Cageman
10-20-2010, 06:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgoi3i9AgbU&feature=related

Yet another NASA Employee going on record....

Cageman
10-20-2010, 06:48 PM
...and the plot thickens...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbhLad96JwA&feature=related

:)

erikals
10-20-2010, 06:53 PM
#196
he is talking about the science and scientists of the future and how to get there

#197
well, the man only repeats what he heard from others

#198
same here, two people repeat what they saw on a picture /heard from others.


if i was to have some fun on a Sunday morning i would do the same thing, fake some stuff to see how people would react.

considering there are 7 bill in the world, this is hardly good evidence...

Cageman
10-20-2010, 07:09 PM
#196
he is talking about the science and scientists of the future and how to get there

But why say it like that?

"...Breakthroughs avaliable to those who can remove one of truths protective layers..."

There are also TONS of videos from NASA related to communications between the shuttles and ground control about weird stuff.

All I'm saying here is that there are things out there that we do not know how to explain. Wether it is Aliens or not isn't really what I'm after here. Just that we, as humans, have to understand that we do not know everything there is to this universe.

erikals
10-20-2010, 07:28 PM
...All I'm saying here is that there are things out there that we do not know how to explain. Wether it is Aliens or not isn't really what I'm after here. Just that we, as humans, have to understand that we do not know everything there is to this universe.

true, i'd like to see the videos from NASA, they have soem interesting footage shot in space, still, how tempting isn't it to make a UFO hoax for a NASA guy. i know i would...

but there are certainly things that are interesting to investigate, such as the string theory (which if actual, opens up an infinity of more questions and possibilities) this is why they built CERN.

Project Hessdalen (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1068059&postcount=54)is another, less know, but interesting phenomena as well which scientists are working on finding out what is.

for Aliens to exist, sure, even travel between stars, sure, just because we haven't found a way doesn't mean that they can't.

but again, for Aliens to crash-land or even communicate with humans, not likely, an evidence that Aliens exists is also no good news, as it would create mass-hysteria and wars in religious parts of the world. (i know some people who would go bananas if so happened)

way too early,

the world is not ready for such an event /invasion, if there is one.

 

cgisoul
10-20-2010, 08:15 PM
Brilliant movie. I loved it.

meshpig
10-21-2010, 01:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2qaZFC2PtM&feature=related

Food for thought... I guess... :)

It's impossible to tell what they're actually testifying to.

meshpig
10-21-2010, 01:43 AM
Nice one Cageman. Maybe there was once life on Mars, it's possible isn't it?

There's ****e loads of frozen water at the poles on Mars, apparently more than the great lakes of the USA and elsewhere quite common too.

I mean the question is then what does it mean if there was once life on Mars? Mars by all accounts seems to have been a likely contender at one point.

Just by way of an example too, there are no alien beings or illogical civilisation building entities stirring in the frozen wilderness with very little atmosphere, huge and relentless storms with 700 km ph winds and nothing much to eat.


Mars could have been Earth... if not on Mars why anywhere else?

meshpig
10-21-2010, 01:51 AM
It wouldn't surprise me either if the Earth is to some extent unique...

prometheus
10-21-2010, 01:54 AM
one could list state categories types of evolved life forms.

1.bacteria type lifeforms.
2.amoeba, cell clusters.worms.
3.trilobites,fishes.
And the story continues..of course this is under presumtion that most life
is evolved from water environments( wich might be the most common environment for life)

when you think about it there´s a lot of criterias that needs to be fullfilled in order for intelligent lifeforms to evolve and then survive, and also it has to sync to our evolved life time span if we ever are going to get contact,
maybe civilizations has already evolved but died out, or maybe we are among the first and eventually will die out before other civilizations are evolved enough in order to contact us.

By the way, john carter from Mars is soon on the theater:)

Michael

prometheus
10-21-2010, 01:58 AM
It wouldn't surprise me either if the Earth is to some extent unique...

Ivé been thinking in those terms more and more myself, But I would rather be wrong since I would love to know that weré not alone and that there´s actually a great civilization out there to contact us someday, but I beleive that is only a dream unfortunatly.

Michael

meshpig
10-21-2010, 02:40 AM
Ivé been thinking in those terms more and more myself, But I would rather be wrong since I would love to know that weré not alone and that there´s actually a great civilization out there to contact us someday, but I beleive that is only a dream unfortunatly.

Michael

We aren't alone as a species in the Universe, we're %100 dependent on the billions of billions of species which have already existed on planet earth and the billions which still do.

Great civilisations have been and gone already here too. See, all you hear with this alien nonsense is the story of religion; It would be nice if there were really a benevolent father who could just win the odd war and show us the way.

Hello!:)

Elmar Moelzer
10-21-2010, 02:57 AM
There HAVE been people that have seen UFO's.
No, there have been people that have claimed to have seen UFO's.
That is a big difference. There are many, many simple explanations for the UFO- sighting reports. Explanations that are much more down to earth (excuse the pun). Many have already been listed here. Of course there is also A LOT of fraud going on. I would say that actually most is fraud and things blown out of proportion, missquoted (whether on purpose or by accident) by sensationalist media outlets. As I said before: reports/articles/books/TV- shows on the non existance of UFOs dont sell.

Fact: Most reported UFOs actually turn out to be the planet Venus.
Fact: Astronomers belong to the group of people to report THE LEAST UFOs even though they are looking up into the sky ALL the time.
Why is that? Because they know how to identify what they are seeing.
Fact: Most UFO claims that have been reported could be debunked. Only very few could not be and that was usually because of a lack of data, not because of supporting evidence.
It can not

On the mysterious objects that were flying along Apollo 11 and other missions: They have long been identified as the lunar insertion stages of either the same mission, or previous missions.
Btw, Buzz and the others never believed them, not for a second, to be alien by nature. This was just, once again, missquoted (I would say purposely) and edited by the sensationalist media to look that way.
The other videos just proof that NASA employees are just as easily fooled as anybody else.
Which is why NASA invited James Randy a few years ago to give a speech.
I have posted the link to the first part of it earlier. If you have not watched it yet, watch it. It is a real eye opener.
Anyway, we are going circles here. I am not saying that there are no aliens, I am not saying that there are no visitors from other worlds/universes/future earths/past earths/other dimensions/the afterlife.
I am just saying that there is no evidence that there are.
No, blurry photos of hubcaps dont count, neither do fake autopsy videos, or Fox television shows (especially not those).
Trust me, I would be happy if we knew that there are aliens visiting our planet(unless they are out ot exterminate us, of course), because they would have the technology to solve all our problems and they would put and end to certain ideologies as well, but I just have no reason right now to believe that.
All we have is witness reports. We do have no physical evidence.

meshpig
10-21-2010, 03:02 AM
Occam's razor...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

erikals
10-21-2010, 05:26 AM
http://www.crazynews.net/dp/files/2-249.jpg   http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

 

zarti
10-21-2010, 05:41 AM
No, there have been people that have claimed to have seen UFO's.
etc . etc . etc . ...

that is the typical reaction of a sceptic till the moment he ( the sceptic ) or someone ' near to him ' ( a trusted one ) experiences something ' strange ' .
from that moment , you , like everyone else ( that was before like you ) will start to bend your thinking . slighlty at the begining ... .
so it is a matter of personal experience . trust me .




Fact: Most reported UFOs actually turn out to be the planet Venus.
Fact: Astronomers belong to the group of people to report THE LEAST UFOs even though they are looking up into the sky ALL the time.
Why is that? Because they know how to identify what they are seeing.
Fact: Most UFO claims that have been reported could be debunked. Only very few could not be and that was usually because of a lack of data, not because of supporting evidence.
...

All we have is witness reports. We do have no physical evidence.

Facts ?!?! Facts by whom ? debunked ? ;)

as you said " there is a big difference " on saying that we have facts and having facts . and what if they cannot explain what for many are facts . any example ? sure ... in Balkan ( not in my country , but a near one ) , some years ago , during a traditional marriage ceremony which was taking place in an open area and where there were nearly 300 people , after midnight , 2 or 3 o'clock , something extremely silent , something huge ( yeah , almost the size of a soccer field ) , not too high from heads of those people . shape was not described to me but the material was like a mirror nearly ... running slow , sloow , sloww ...and then ... fap! it goes away . [ this story was told by a friend of mine during a similar discussion like this one happening here ; he was there ;) ]

when i say , a friend of mine ; i know him very well . and when i say 300 people i say 300 people who have not the smallest interest to lie .

stories like this go not only unDebunked but unKonwn to everyone else but to those who have the chance to Hear something from those who Want to speak . and of course , there is nothing to investigate upon . here it is our limited scientific capability which rules or better ' dictates our life ' . ;)

to whom should i believe ; to NASA or to 300 ordinary people like me ??
to whom should i believe ; to a NASAs official or to my friend ?

of course you cannot believe me . who am i to modify your ' BIOS ' ;) ? i'm an unknown to you , just a forum member right ?
and that's what generally happens with these stories ... ;)


here comes up the most important word ; to Believe ( not in a religious conetxt )

and by the way , since religion came up in my post ,
we do not know what psychological process will make place inside the heads of 6.7 billion people if one day ... their thinking foundation will start to ... :beerchug:



i respect your opinion and i think you haven't met yet ' something ' .

Hieron
10-21-2010, 05:56 AM
some years ago , during a traditional marriage ceremony which was taking place in an open area and where there were nearly 300 people , after midnight , 2 or 3 o'clock , something extremely silent , something huge ( yeah , almost the size of a soccer field ) , not too high from heads of those people . shape was not described to me but the material was like a mirror nearly ... running slow , sloow , sloww ...and then ... fap! it goes away . [ this story was told by a friend of mine during a similar discussion like this one happening here ; he was there ;) ]



300 people at a marriage, and no one managed to snap a decent shot of the huge thing over their heads? Typical :)
At least nowadays everyone has a phone with a decent camera in it, if these aliens keep messing up and blowing their cover to all these masses, it can't be long before masses of footage start showing up. Right?


Btw, I believe many people actually see UFO's.. Unidentied Flying Objects that is. Aliens? nah.. If I do get abducted, I'll post my review here and surely ask them for some more Core technology :)

zarti
10-21-2010, 06:23 AM
some years before ... maybe 10 years nearly maybe more , not in a urban area , Balkan , etc . etc . etc . ... what was a mobile phone then ??

an alien device ... ;)

Hieron
10-21-2010, 06:26 AM
:) ok, fair enough. But now, we got it! Aliens everywhere should start showing up soon enough..

Neil and Buzz should have done the hoax, they had a perfect moment for it... :)
Superbly depicted by Eddie Izzard (second half):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vITJdaJ4xxM

meshpig
10-21-2010, 06:47 AM
:) ok, fair enough. But now, we got it! Aliens everywhere should start showing up soon enough..

Neil and Buzz should have done the hoax, they had a perfect moment for it... :)
Superbly depicted by Eddie Izzard (second half):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vITJdaJ4xxM

Hah you just can't beat pommy humour when it's on the money... the silly old ******** is the same age as me too:)

Elmar Moelzer
10-21-2010, 06:57 AM
Facts ?!?! Facts by whom ? debunked ?

I dont understand what you mean by this?
You do not believe my facts?
Read it up! There are plenty of statistics about this.

Not all astronomers work for NASA. Most of them are just hobby- astronomers. They too understand what they are looking at though.
Anyway, Venus is indeed the most reported UFO. It is a fact. It has been happening over and over again. Astronomers are statistically reporting much less UFOs than other people. They simply understand what they are seeing when they are looking up into the sky. Interestingly enough, they also are the ones that look up into the sky the most.

I have no idea what your friends could have seen at that wedding, but when they did not have digital cameras, they sure had A camera there, at the wedding. It was a wedding after all.
Maybe it was a glider of some sorts that was much smaller, but at night optical illusion can make distant objects appear nearer, or close objects appear larger.
As I said, I can not judge what your friends have seen, but I can come up with plenty of explanations that do not require an extraterrestrial force.

I prefer science over believe. And science says: There are no aliens visiting earth. There are no alien abductions.

Elmar Moelzer
10-21-2010, 07:20 AM
Anyway, for all my fellow sceptics, if you dont know it already, I strongly recommend that you read the blog of fellow sceptic and "Bad Astronomer", Phil Plait.
He covers a lot of the topics discussed here and he got world famous by debunking all sorts of urban myths related to astronomy (e.g. the whole balance the egg on its tip thing, or the sink- coriolis on the north and southern side of the globe thingy).
Good stuff:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/

This is his old homepage with a lot of cool info on it. He is also ripping apart bad movie physics and bad movie astronomy. Worth a read for all those VFX- people here:
http://www.badastronomy.com/index.html

prometheus
10-21-2010, 07:42 AM
[QUOTE=Elmar Moelzer;1071183]No, there have been people that have claimed to have seen UFO's.
QUOTE]

Actually that isn´t really correct, even I have seen UFO´s, to get the terms right... UFO´s are Unidentified Flying objects (not Unidentified F...(censored) objects:D

And as such unidentified flying objects, it can be anything from ballons to birds and weather phenomena, and it is not to be mixed up with an unfortunate common perception that it is flying saucers or alien space crafts, but Im sure you know this..I´m Just a little picky:D

Michael

meshpig
10-21-2010, 07:54 AM
Anyway, for all my fellow sceptics, if you dont know it already, I strongly recommend that you read the blog of fellow sceptic and "Bad Astronomer", Phil Plait.
He covers a lot of the topics discussed here and he got world famous by debunking all sorts of urban myths related to astronomy (e.g. the whole balance the egg on its tip thing, or the sink- coriolis on the north and southern side of the globe thingy).
Good stuff:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/

This is his old homepage with a lot of cool info on it. He is also ripping apart bad movie physics and bad movie astronomy. Worth a read for all those VFX- people here:
http://www.badastronomy.com/index.html

Man I'm a fellow skeptic but I love Star Trek the original, NG and Voyager because they're cheap and nasty retellings of old sea stories. I mean Why the F else would you go to "starboard" in space? Sci Fi is social realism and you can't get around that:)

zarti
10-21-2010, 08:12 AM
I prefer science over believe. And science says: There are no aliens visiting earth. There are no alien abductions.

exactly that's your " preference " and that's why i respect your opinion .

but being Scientifically Sure that there is no alien visiting earth ; isn't Scientific in itself . and thinking that scientifically would be Enough a single case to prove that wrong ;) and for me would be enough even not an unconvincing explanation .
yeah ! i like this kind of science .

keep in mind ;
i do not need to believe , that's not my passion , i'm not a fan of the theory , i do not live with this theme , etc . etc . on the contrary i try not to think or talk about it too much and take this in a funny way mostly ;)

the problem is that when you " see something that science hasn't admitted it exists " and nobody believes you , all that remains within the eyewitness . i'm fine with it and that's enough too .

...

regarding the ' marriage case ' ; i explained few details and those should be enough to explain the technological potential of the village where that happened .

...

and finally yes ! i got something with my camera ( maybe last year or a bit more ). let say 6 or 7 Venuses coming 2 by 2 :D in a lightning night . ( and if i continue to tell that story , there should have been more couples of Venuses before those , since the group of teenagers that attracted my attention were ' familiarized ' and where having fun watching them . you know kind of ' gratis fireworks ' . ;) )

oh ... and it is in HD format . yeah i have now a sony hdd hd cam :thumbsup:
only shooting that sequence was worth its money ;)





.cheers

Hieron
10-21-2010, 08:45 AM
Ow come on! Cough it up Zarti, show us! :)

You aren't making it quickly in LW now are you? bit of lensflare here, bit of saucer there, camera track and done :)

zarti
10-21-2010, 09:08 AM
Ow come on! Cough it up Zarti, show us! :)

You aren't making it quickly in LW now are you? bit of lensflare here, bit of saucer there, camera track and done :)

HyperVoxel needs optimization and defocus was taking too much time but in the end it looks so real ! :D