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stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 05:10 AM
Hey all,

I'm trying to stencil something but get funky results..I've tried to bevel the circle in.. and boolean.. any ideas?

Here's a picture of what I'm trying to do along with what's happening.

WilliamVaughan
10-04-2010, 05:21 AM
Are you trying to stencil a Subpatch object?

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 05:23 AM
no it's just a circle I made with the shift+O

Traveler
10-04-2010, 05:24 AM
Are you performing the operation with subpatch mode on?

edit: Ah too late ;-)

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 05:26 AM
here's the .lwo pre-stenciled

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 05:30 AM
Are you performing the operation with subpatch mode on?

edit: Ah too late ;-)

no everything is normal when i drill.. the thing is when I try to bevel the circle in and then subpatch everything turns to madness!

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 05:32 AM
Also, pre-stenciled.. the polygon face of the button is "missing" but when you subdivide it's there again.. why's that??

lardbros
10-04-2010, 05:48 AM
That model is definitely sub-patched... no doubt in my mind. Turn off subpatch on those polys (using the TAB key, on the selection) and then try the stencil...

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 05:54 AM
That model is definitely sub-patched... no doubt in my mind. Turn off subpatch on those polys (using the TAB key, on the selection) and then try the stencil...

Lardbros,

I don't know if you read my post.. but I turned off subpatch. 100% sure. If you'd like take a look at the .lwo and see for yourself. Am I missing something?

lardbros
10-04-2010, 06:07 AM
My apologies... there could be duplicate geometry? I'll have to have a look after work, but for now I'm thinking that you can't sub-patch any faces with more than 4 points, so it'll moan about that. After your boolean try merging points... booleans etc aren't as lovely as they first seem, they can generate nasty points and polys all over the shop.

Bare with me, I'll load this up later and have a look!

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 06:21 AM
Thanks :D I know I tried everything I could think of.. Ill try a couple more things when I get home too. Thanks again! :)

nickdigital
10-04-2010, 11:02 AM
It looks like the poly you're trying to stencil is non-planar. I duped that layer and put it in layer 10. I added more segments and the stencil operation worked fine.

I notice you're using CC patches. Be careful with those...I'm not sure they're totally working properly in LW.

lardbros
10-04-2010, 11:25 AM
Definitely steer clear of the Catmull Clark sub-d's... they were never implemented fully, they work for some things, but for most modelling tools they will break especially boolean type operations.

I've had a play with the model, and it's tough to say it, but many of the objects don't have any nice flow going on... the object you're trying to boolean right now needs sorting...

right... I've attached a slightly neater version... to get this, I:

1.) Found quite a few stray points floating about... they weren't attached to any geometry that I could see, so I deleted them.
2.) Removed the huge flat face that was invisible... this face was not doing you any favours.
3.) Rebuilt the face in a way so it matched the flow of the rear face... much neater, and satisfies my neatness a bit more.
4.) Stencilled again, and it works as it should, but this won't subpatch because booleans and subpatches don't work great... it'll need more work before it's okay for that.

Good luck with the rest of the model!

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 02:10 PM
Wow thanks to both of you! I am trying to learn to keep my flow neater so your lwos will help me fix that!

Earnest, so its best to always use regular subpatch? I guess thatll help me keep my modeling cleaner.I didn't know CC was so under developed.

Lardbros,
Thank you!! I was wondering why the A key would center so far away! I wonder how that happened 8~
So I'm guessing stenciling works better with more geometry is that it? Or is it just that it can't be non-planar? And what exactly do you mean by non planar?

Thanks again guys yall are awesome :D

nickdigital
10-04-2010, 02:18 PM
Yes stick with regular sub'ds.

With stenciling it's best to work with a polygon that's well defined. Non-planar usually means the polygon face is having trouble being defined because there's not enough edges.

When stenciling a complicated area I find it helps to isolate the area that you want to stencil by knifing and isolating that section. It also makes the stencil operation perform quicker since there's less it has to cut up.

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 02:36 PM
Ah.. When I cut a face and put it on another layer and paste ity back are the verts already merged or do I have to press M? I think I remember trying that and it was detached.

Also.. Is it easier to stencil geometry that isn't an ngon? Just trying to narrow down problems in the future!

nickdigital
10-04-2010, 02:40 PM
You'll have to hit "M".

N-gons are fine. If you have a n-gon that's got a crazy amount of points...then you might wanna start cutting up that face. Just doing something as quick as selecting two points and splitting the polygon helps.

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 02:48 PM
Ahh ok but mine wasn't too crazy right? Are you talking hundreds of points crazy?

nickdigital
10-04-2010, 02:49 PM
Yeah...that would be crazy.

The thing with your poly is that it wasn't even drawing properly in GL display so that told me it was probably non-planar.

Actually if you zoom into the corners of that polygon that's not drawing you'll notice your corners are crossed...that's why you were having so many problems.

lardbros
10-04-2010, 03:18 PM
No probs... it's tough in the beginning, but LW makes it easier than most software. Generally you can figure out why things don't work in LW, but in 3ds max, you can get issues that you'll never track down, it can just be a corrupt file for no apparent reason.

Anyway, if you check out as many training videos as possible, you will see that most poly models, even sub-patched models, are made out of quad polygons. This is ALWAYS the best way to model. Some n-gons are okay for the caps of a cylinder or something, but if you want them to be sub-patched objects you're much better off trying to connect edges to make them into quads. It can be tricky at first, but you'll get used to it after a while.

You have chosen quite a tricky object to tackle, but i'm sure it'll be a good learning experience.

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 03:28 PM
Yeah...that would be crazy.

The thing with your poly is that it wasn't even drawing properly in GL display so that told me it was probably non-planar.

Actually if you zoom into the corners of that polygon that's not drawing you'll notice your corners are crossed...that's why you were having so many problems.

Hahaha great image :D I beveled that top polygon out.. I guess it was the verts that were close together that caused the failed merging geometry :S

stevenpalomino
10-04-2010, 03:33 PM
Lardbros,

Thanks I'm trying to up the quality of my modeling and texturing so I really wanted to take my time on this and do this right.

I totally agree with LW being easy I also use XSI and Max and sure they're powerful but I find LW to be much easier.

nickdigital
10-04-2010, 03:40 PM
Hahaha great image :D I beveled that top polygon out.. I guess it was the verts that were close together that caused the failed merging geometry :S

Yeah the bevel tool will cause overlapping points like that.

You could either get bevel++ which will automatically merge points when beveling.
http://www.softgeometry.jp/lightwave/lightwave3d/bevelpp/

Or try the Rasp plug-in.
http://www.pictrix.jp/lw/Rasp/
I've gotten mixed results with this plug-in.

I don't have bevel++ but people swear by it.

stevenpalomino
10-05-2010, 10:54 PM
Hey all,

I finally got some time to keep working on this model and I'm still having problems with that middle button. I go in to bevel it in and I get this weird problem. Any ideas? I tried combining the polys as well as leaving them quaded.

stevenpalomino
10-05-2010, 11:06 PM
*Update*

I just decided to connect the polygons and run rounder on that middle vert. Didn't want to keep wasting time with the booleans and this should work fine for my purposes!

nickdigital
10-05-2010, 11:44 PM
For an object that needs to be pretty polished and smooth you probably wanna try to as much sub'd as poosible. Booleans are good when you can't get anymore detail with sub'ds.

See the attached file. It creates something close to what you want while still being flexible if I still need to modify it. Once you start doing booleans you're kinda committed to your mesh.

stevenpalomino
10-06-2010, 12:01 AM
ahh ok was that with the stencil as well? So pretty much stay away from booleans unless you can't get it with subd's?

nickdigital
10-06-2010, 12:09 AM
No stencil at all.

I started with a disc.
Bevel it to extend the ring.
Delete the n-gon.
Scaled the edge points to create the frame.
Selected the inner ring, made a poly, beveled it a couple of times.
Beveled the n-gon down to zero to cap it.
From there used the bandsaw to add edges to tighten up the crease areas.

My way might not be the most efficient...but it got there eventually. :)

I personally try to do as much with sub'd's as possible. It allows you to continue to modify it without committing to a frozen mesh. You might eventually have to freeze a mesh but try to get as far as you can with sub'ds. The thing with booleans is that if your mesh isn't hi-rez enough or your stencils aren't hi-rez enough your mesh might not be clean enough for what you need as a final render.

stevenpalomino
10-06-2010, 12:13 AM
ahhh ok ok.. and I've heard "frozen mesh" a few times recently.. is that similar to "delete history by type" in Maya?

nickdigital
10-06-2010, 12:24 AM
Kinda.

Classic LW doesn't have a history or modifier stack. So with your sub'd model you're not gonna be able to revisit how many segments your box started with and etc as you would with a modifier stack.

To best illustrate this, quickly doodle up something with sub'ds and then do Ctrl+d. It's the Freeze command found under Construct>Convert (at least it is in my menus).

Your sub'd object is now frozen. Depending on your needs, dealing with that mesh is gonna be very different compared to your cage. I only freeze when I absolutely have to. And always make sure to keep a copy of your sub'd cage as backup.

stevenpalomino
10-06-2010, 12:41 AM
wow.. never saw that before haha.. I just did what you said.. It's almost like subdividing but keeping all the resolution with more polys.. what good is that anyway?

stevenpalomino
10-06-2010, 01:27 AM
Thanks so much for the scene file! I actually put it to use on the earphone part! See! I do pay attention ;) :D

stevenpalomino
10-06-2010, 05:03 AM
Alright.. Here's a more complex shape.. i had to trace it with bezier curves and then stencil it.. it totally not working though.. any ideas? also.. connecting all the verts causes trouble too. here's a screenshot & lwo!

UnCommonGrafx
10-06-2010, 05:09 AM
Hmm,
Steve, look at your geometry. Wherever you see >4 points to a polygon, you will have a problem. That is, if you plan to subpatch it.
So your initial shape, though you plan to bevel it, needs to be made up of polys, 4 point ones being best. Multishift from there.

stevenpalomino
10-06-2010, 05:18 AM
So would it help to connect the verts from the inside or outside?

UnCommonGrafx
10-06-2010, 07:25 AM
Don't understand the question.

stevenpalomino
10-06-2010, 07:29 AM
You're syaing that I should make sure my polys have 4 verts.. So should I connect the verts on the inside so that its quaded?

UnCommonGrafx
10-06-2010, 08:56 AM
Yes. Particularly if you mean that one big poly in the middle.
:)

stevenpalomino
10-07-2010, 08:01 PM
wow I'm still having problems with that side geometry. I've even cleaned it up a bit and still having trouble! Any ideas? Here's a few pictures along with the scene file if anyone wants to give it a go!

nickdigital
10-08-2010, 12:16 AM
For areas that need higher detail than others what I usually do is separate that from the whole object, model it how I want and then re-attach it back to the main piece. You have a lot of triangles and odd intersections.

Jim M
10-08-2010, 03:19 AM
EDIT - I am dumb