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View Full Version : Simple Plug Ins that don't currently exist? That would be a big help to lightwave



MovieMaker1972
09-21-2010, 02:11 AM
I am wanting to educate myself on plugins that I think don't exist

Example:

The morph one object to another with different numbers of points?
Does that exist? It think this is pretty trivial if the middle object is a circle.


Plug in to average 2 motion capture files so that I can load 1 bvh and another bvh and morph between one and the other to produce different child bvh with many variations possible.

Particle generator where each particle is a pixel in a photo or movie and they can be animated around. I have seen some pretty interesting things done with this. in 2d.

Also are there any crowd control plugins for lightwave like massive?
can lightwave render very large poly count scenes like that or would vue be better?
If i had 1000 bvh files could lightwave execute them?


If there are other simple plugins you can think of what are they?

bazsa73
09-21-2010, 03:11 AM
Massive as a simple plugin? How?

stevecullum
09-21-2010, 03:37 AM
Liquid fluids simulator, voronoi shatter, flocking particles, bullet dynamics for layout, spline IK for 64bit.

tudor
09-21-2010, 05:21 AM
A button that makes everything photo-realistic automatically.

MovieMaker1972
09-21-2010, 09:18 AM
Liquid fluids simulator, voronoi shatter, flocking particles, bullet dynamics for layout, spline IK for 64bit.

Flocking particles?

So a bird like flock doesn't exist?

nickdigital
09-21-2010, 09:23 AM
Flocking particles?

So a bird like flock doesn't exist?

You could try this tutorial.
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/.../flocking_birds/flocking_birds.pdf

MovieMaker1972
09-21-2010, 09:31 AM
Massive as a simple plugin? How?

crowd movement in lightwave
http://www.the123d.com/tutorial/lightwave2/crowd01.shtml
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-13719.0.html
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=399680

I like this one as the crowd is varied
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77002

So the simple part would be to copy the walk cycle approach or morph approach and randomize the look of the person. Then apply some AI for the path selection and combat or action choice.
the idea isn't to make massive. The idea is to make something simple that can do some of the things massive can do.

For example the scene from lord of the rings where they charge on horseback would have been only slightly less powerful if a hobbit was hanging from some high point about to fall and the camera took his perspective and scanned the charge wildly from left to right hiding the lower resolution and less than perfect actions but showing a massive sea of random motion that behaves reasonably intelligently.

stevecullum
09-21-2010, 09:32 AM
So a bird like flock doesn't exist?

There isn't any specific flocking behaviours in LW Particles, so you normally have to fake it.

nickdigital
09-21-2010, 09:32 AM
Plug in to average 2 motion capture files so that I can load 1 bvh and another bvh and morph between one and the other to produce different child bvh with many variations possible.
Motionbuilder is better suited for this.



Particle generator where each particle is a pixel in a photo or movie and they can be animated around. I have seen some pretty interesting things done with this. in 2d.
You might be able to do this with voxel sprites. I don't think it's possible to specify which particle plays which movie though.




Also are there any crowd control plugins for lightwave like massive?
Not really. You can do crowds with HDInstance and offsetting looping animation. It won't be true intelligent crowd control though. Something like Massive is the result of years of proprietary research and money directed at a single problem.



can lightwave render very large poly count scenes like that or would vue be better?
Vue is geared towards environments. To me this question sounds confusing. Are you asking if LW can handle high poly counts or handle generating sets/terrain. LW can do both. If you're looking for a terrain generator then Vue is good but it's a specific piece of software for a specific task.



If i had 1000 bvh files could lightwave execute them?
Define "execute" them.



If there are other simple plugins you can think of what are they?
Not sure what you're asking...define "simple". Flay.com and lwplugindb.com are good sites that list what plug-ins exist for LW.

MovieMaker1972
09-21-2010, 09:34 AM
There isn't any specific flocking behaviours in LW Particles, so you normally have to fake it.


This qualifies to me as a simple plugin.

Thank you

Simple flocking where each bird seeks out the center would work like this

Calculate the center of the flock
For number of birds
{
Calculate my error from the center of the flock
Am I in formation?
If I am in formation then my eagerness to deviate course is multiplied by one value (for smooth flock behavior)
If I am not in formation calculate where my formation would be (so ball or V pattern can be modeled)
Randomize my increase/decrease in eagerness to be in the group and adjust my eagerness
Adjust my 3D line path to match the needed course based on my eagerness
Maybe add collision avoidance (this is harder to me)
}

nickdigital
09-21-2010, 09:35 AM
So the simple part would be to copy the walk cycle approach or morph approach and randomize the look of the person. Then apply some AI for the path selection and combat or action choice.
the idea isn't to make massive. The idea is to make something simple that can do some of the things massive can do.


You found good examples but creating the AI is the hard part. That's some pretty high-end programming.

MovieMaker1972
09-21-2010, 09:38 AM
If I took 10,000 low poly characters and gave them each unique bvh commands would lightwave die?

Making a bvh that is like massive is actually not all that hard if you are cutting and splicing existing motions. Think automated Jimmy rig with the computer doing the part the human usually does.

But Lightwave needs to be able to handle it and let my personal machine be the limiting factor not the architecture of the software.

jeric_synergy
09-21-2010, 09:42 AM
That "simple" is really out of place in the subject line.

MovieMaker1972
09-21-2010, 09:57 AM
Liquid fluids simulator, voronoi shatter, flocking particles, bullet dynamics for layout, spline IK for 64bit.

Voronoi shatter would be much easier with a solid mesh. Does lightwave have solid mesh?

Lagao uses a solid mesh which I think have pretty simple physics
http://www.theresidentarchitect.com/2010/08/amazing-physics-simulator.html

The actual physics each particle in each mesh is reacting to could be pretty simple to get a lagao like simulation. Finite element Analysis is built on very simple differential equations but when you do it on 100,000 particles it still takes forever. This is because the actual newtonian physics is conceptually not that complicated if you treat friction and attraction with fudge factors. All of the fun behavior will emerge from the initial conditions which would need to be randomized for a good look.

Again I am talking about making a cheap copy.

But if I had 100,000 particles and automated collision detection the dirt dropping seems like its pretty easy to do with no promises related to time of execution for a 10 second simulation (may take 2 weeks).

nickdigital
09-21-2010, 10:17 AM
This qualifies to me as a simple plugin.

Thank you

Simple flocking where each bird seeks out the center would work like this

Calculate the center of the flock
For number of birds
{
Calculate my error from the center of the flock
Am I in formation?
If I am in formation then my eagerness to deviate course is multiplied by one value (for smooth flock behavior)
If I am not in formation calculate where my formation would be (so ball or V pattern can be modeled)
Randomize my increase/decrease in eagerness to be in the group and adjust my eagerness
Adjust my 3D line path to match the needed course based on my eagerness
Maybe add collision avoidance (this is harder to me)
}

Hm, I don't think this is possible directly in LW. Maybe via a plug-in but this would definitely be a 3rd party thing.

nickdigital
09-21-2010, 10:25 AM
If I took 10,000 low poly characters and gave them each unique bvh commands would lightwave die?

Making a bvh that is like massive is actually not all that hard if you are cutting and splicing existing motions. Think automated Jimmy rig with the computer doing the part the human usually does.

But Lightwave needs to be able to handle it and let my personal machine be the limiting factor not the architecture of the software.

10,000 is a lot of objects. Factor in that each character is going to be rigged and then each rig will have mocap on it...that's a pretty heavy scene.

I think the way to tackle something like this would be to get your AI animation done the way you want and then to bake out the animation to a mdd file.

nickdigital
09-21-2010, 10:28 AM
Voronoi shatter would be much easier with a solid mesh. Does lightwave have solid mesh?


There's C4, CrackIt and MGBreakUp that'll break up an object.

stevecullum
09-21-2010, 11:11 AM
MovieMaker1972, are you planning on coding one of these plugins being discussed here? Or looking for alternative Lightwave methods of creating similar functions found in other packages?

MovieMaker1972
09-21-2010, 11:53 PM
MovieMaker1972, are you planning on coding one of these plugins being discussed here? Or looking for alternative Lightwave methods of creating similar functions found in other packages?

I dream big but that doesn't mean I will follow through lol.

Lets see how long it takes me to code the flock of birds one =)

I just made my first test render today in lightwave so I am taking baby steps.

stevecullum
09-22-2010, 03:17 AM
I dream big but that doesn't mean I will follow through lol.

Lets see how long it takes me to code the flock of birds one =)

I just made my first test render today in lightwave so I am taking baby steps.

Good luck with that! Hope the SDK is not too flocking painful!:)

Dodgy
09-22-2010, 03:21 AM
I'd really like a water fluid plugin which doesn't cost the earth :)

stevecullum
09-22-2010, 04:02 AM
I'd really like a water fluid plugin which doesn't cost the earth :)

Or even a 64bit compatible plugin for importing blender fluid sims would do me...

Cageman
09-22-2010, 05:28 AM
I'd really like a water fluid plugin which doesn't cost the earth :)

I believe Turbulence 4D will have water-sim capabilities later on... and it doesn't cost the earth. :)

stevecullum
09-22-2010, 06:53 AM
I believe Turbulence 4D will have water-sim capabilities later on... and it doesn't cost the earth.

That would be great - except development seems to be crawling along a bit, so who knows when we will see any liquid options...

nickdigital
09-22-2010, 08:41 AM
I dream big but that doesn't mean I will follow through lol.

Lets see how long it takes me to code the flock of birds one =)

I just made my first test render today in lightwave so I am taking baby steps.

Good luck. 3rd party plug-ins are always welcome.

probiner
09-22-2010, 09:01 AM
I'd really like a water fluid plugin which doesn't cost the earth :)

What are you using now? One called The Flood? :D

MovieMaker1972
09-27-2010, 10:02 AM
Photo realistic city generation.

If the plugin took real modeled buildings that were built with abstract parameters. For example, if someone modeled the empire state building but did it with procedurals so that the rectangular floor plan, stories and window panes and exterior finish were variable but provided real photorealistic materials for the exterior and windows then many many empire state buildings could be made. It would take a library of maybe 30 buildings with this procedural to make photo realistic cities with a click and a wait of maybe 30 min to generate.

conceptually this isn't hard but it would require a bunch of building models and for the suburbs a bunch of house models and for the middle ages a bunch of huts and castles etc.

In the end it could be just like VUE does ecosystems but automated. Maybe you would select the city population and income and it would figure it all out.

Elmar Moelzer
09-27-2010, 10:24 AM
Photo realistic city generation.

There are several plugins and software packages like that already on the market.

MovieMaker1972
10-03-2010, 09:46 PM
A button that makes everything photo-realistic automatically.

Been thinking about this and how to do it simply.

Right now the closest I can come is an iphone app that will take a picture of a material under several different lighting conditions and angles. Then calculate the lightwave texture for the material.

Seems that a lot of the fundamental properties of the material could be captured.

So photo wood and get a setup that is largely like wood.

Mr Rid
10-03-2010, 10:42 PM
The morph one object to another with different numbers of points?

There was some kinda plug posted here that I never tried and doubted how it would work... http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74357


You found good examples but creating the AI is the hard part. That's some pretty high-end programming.

Was hoping SOMEbody would pickup where Bugz left off so many years ago- http://www.kolve.com/thesis/thesis.htm ANYbody!?

Or that the HD Instance guy might be inclined to extend features into a simple, low cost crowd sim. I've seen an example scripted in Blender, and this example I guess using a script in Max-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKgSKqv9AEU&p=571F63D412034686&index=3


Hm, I don't think this is possible directly in LW. Maybe via a plug-in but this would definitely be a 3rd party thing.

Particle Storm 1 had flocking behavior so it cant be too difficult. I needed bird swarms for a project last year and it was a mess trying to fake flocking in LW. There seems to be an example here using Relativity but its not explained-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt5Nt5ccAJk Seems like five people really know how to use that thing.

yaschan
10-04-2010, 12:23 AM
You could try this tutorial.
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/.../flocking_birds/flocking_birds.pdf

I can't open the link..

littlewaves
10-04-2010, 08:05 AM
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/Tutorials/animation/flocking_birds/flocking_birds.pdf

3dworks
10-04-2010, 10:16 AM
i'm missing a 'drop to ground' plugin for layout, which runs also on mac, and is capable to take any object in a scene and align it's geometry bounding box bottom with the underlying geometry. would be very useful for placing cars in those sloped parking lots or for placing vegetation on hills etc.

'ground those objects' by pepperchrome seems to do the job, but is windows only. maybe the developer would make 64 bit and mac UB versions?

markus

Mr Rid
10-04-2010, 01:27 PM
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/Tutorials/animation/flocking_birds/flocking_birds.pdf

There's another tut on YT but these are not about actual flocking. In LW 5 days, enable a button in Particle Storm, and the particles would loosely angle toward, and swim around a center. I used it for smoke trails to keep particles from drifting too far out the way current emitters inevitably do and you wind up with those damn HV puffballs ruining everything.

erikals
10-05-2010, 07:26 PM
i'm going through some of the Relativity example files provided at NT's server.
(download is located at the page you download your LW96 installation)

haven't played with them, but looks interesting.
(sorry can't say more than that atm)

check for example paper_bird2.lws
notice the left photorealistic bird gliding...

MovieMaker1972
10-07-2010, 12:41 AM
A texture rig.

I was looking for slider bars for textures and didn't find any and got to thinking. Just like RHriggit is to motion there should be a rigger for textures so that you don't have to build the texture instead you import a complex mesh and just change the analog values.

I don't see that at the level I am thinking about.

For example a node that is all hard woods. You have to tweak on say 10 or 15 variables but with that you can make very good hardwood tables.

Or human skin.

Conceptually the support work is easy, the figuring out the mesh and configuring it is pretty involved though.

erikals
10-07-2010, 07:22 AM
i'm going through some of the Relativity example files provided at NT's server.
(download is located at the page you download your LW96 installation)

haven't played with them, but looks interesting.
(sorry can't say more than that atm)

check for example paper_bird2.lws
notice the left photorealistic bird gliding...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=88681&d=1286328783

mixed with Howard's....
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?12468-Flocking-around-%29

Taa-daaa!!! http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/biggrin.gif
...it's nice to clean up the tutorial folder sometimes :]