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3dWannabe
09-20-2010, 09:08 AM
I'm really confused.

Even if I put my money down for LW10, I don't get software I can use as I understand (I'm not under non-disclosure for LW10) that

[Confidential information removed by the moderators]

I am in the 9.6.1 beta, but I can't discuss that here or how that experience affects my desire to purchase LW10 due to 'non-disclosure'.

I can't try LW10 for a limited time (they do this for the betas, the keys are always expiring, so why can't I get a trial key for LW10)?

All this secrecy makes me believe they don't want me to try it and form my own conclusions as this would affect my purchasing decision.

I noticed a whole lot of the early supporters jumping ship from LW10, so I don't exactly know what to think of that, as I can't read or post to the LW10 forums -- isn't that crazy?????

I'd be happy if there were a paid subscription for just bug fixes. Just fix all the bugs in 9.6 and forget about new features.

Software companies never do this. They always focus on the new features and leave the old bugs, until their software becomes a bloated buggy mess.

But, what many users want, and would actually pay for, are bug fixes, stability and speed improvements.

The LW10 'deal' expires on Sept 30???

I just don't have enough information to make an informed purchasing decision - and of course, no one under 'non-disclosure' can even answer my questions about this?

Did I fall asleep and wake up in China? There are things we can't talk about? LW10 is so secret (after being shown at many trade shows) that a veil of silence (more like a 'cone of silence') surrounds it because all the other greedy 3D companies like Maya want to steal LW's secrets?

Ahhhhh!

Skonk
09-20-2010, 09:23 AM
LW 10 isn't out yet.

If you pay now then it's a pre-order with access to the beta; one would hope that the actual release version (which is what you are pre-ordering) will have those bugs fixed.

Myagi
09-20-2010, 09:35 AM
I can't try LW10 for a limited time (they do this for the betas, the keys are always expiring, so why can't I get a trial key for LW10)?

...

The LW10 'deal' expires on Sept 30???

I just don't have enough information to make an informed purchasing decision

It seems like a case of havecakeandeatcakeitis ;) I would be surprised if you couldn't download and try discovery edition of LW10 once it's done and make a well informed decision, just like you can with LW9. When wanting an early bird special deal and the benefits of buying a final product, it does get a little complicated though :).

Making a decision about bugs, stability and performance based on a beta would probably misleading too, so even with a trial it wouldn't necessarily make the decision "better".

4dartist
09-20-2010, 09:39 AM
LW 10 isn't out yet.

amen.

Cageman
09-20-2010, 12:32 PM
As far as I know, the bug you are reffering to is fixed and the fix will be in the next build.

EDIT: As you may be aware of, the same bug exists in 9.6.1 as well. This does happen when things are being updated and changed, so there is no reason at all to panic.

Cageman
09-20-2010, 12:36 PM
I noticed a whole lot of the early supporters jumping ship from LW10, so I don't exactly know what to think of that, as I can't read or post to the LW10 forums -- isn't that crazy?????

A whole lot? As far as I know, I can count the numbers on my two hands... maybe even just one hand.

3dWannabe
09-20-2010, 12:46 PM
As far as I know, the bug you are reffering to is fixed and the fix will be in the next build.

That's good to hear!

But, we are close to 2 years after 9.6's release, without a 9.6.1.

LW10 may the the promised land where 3D graphics flow like honey, but I'm less interested in new features than in getting the existing problems taken care of.

Time is spent on features where there are currently 3rd party solutions available - while many existing bugs go un-fixed.

I'm just not getting a warm-fuzzy feeling that this is going to change, especially as a lot of the folks privy to the inside info of the CORE program jumped ship not long ago and seemed rather negative.

I'm just having a hard time evaluating Newtek's intentions and ability to follow through - and I wish they would be a bit more open.

Possibly open the LW10 forums as read-only for those who've not pre-purchased LW10, and create one R/W LW10 forum for potential users to ask questions from anyone who might choose to answer.

3dWannabe
09-20-2010, 12:53 PM
A whole lot? As far as I know, I can count the numbers on my two hands... maybe even just one hand.

They were people I recognized as major contributors on the forums. Folks that I respected, who seemed very competent.

Possibly it just seemed like there were 'a lot' as they were quite vocal?

I'm not sure of the total #s who purchased CORE as opposed to those who left.

That would be interesting to know!

If 95% of CORE users stuck with the program, I'd certainly like to know that.

Silkrooster
09-20-2010, 10:51 PM
If you are confused. You can pay for it now to beat the deadline. And once you know for a fact some portion is not working as you expect it to, you can ask for your money back. But I have a feeling some of the additions will make you want to keep it.

nemac4
09-22-2010, 08:52 AM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw10.php

3dWannabe
09-22-2010, 09:27 AM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw10.php

That doesn't tell me how the VPR compares to fprime.

Which plug-ins work and which don't?

Which bugs are fixed, and which new bugs have been introduced.

Stability.

That page is really rather lacking in useful info. For example the video on 'linear workflow' didn't tell me anything. I have a linear workflow now with fprime/G2, ccnode, etc. - and I watched that video maybe a month ago, and there was nothing in it about a linear workflow. Nothing.

I very much doubt the shows and movies they mention used LW10, as many were shot over a year ago.

As I stated originally, it's a complete unknown.

dwburman
09-22-2010, 10:39 AM
Your use of the words "complete" and "nothing" confuse me.

LW10 is basically what we have now (9.6) but with a few new features in Layout and a new app named Core. Since Layout and Modeler haven't changed much we know a great deal about them. Your specific questions are completely valid and justifiable (or at least will be when the software is out of beta) but to say that we know nothing is serious hyperbole. Core is very much an unknown and saying it's a complete unknown is less of a stretch. :)

I agree that features page is pretty useless at this point. Part of the problem is that Core doesn't have enough features to stand on its own yet and Layout and Modeler haven't changed much.


I was hoping that linear workflow video link would be a demonstration of LW10's linear workflow: why you need it and how you use it. However, the guy from EdenFX specifically mentions using the new linear workflow in HardCore (a.k.a LW10.) on Fast Forward and talks about it for a while. The video IS pretty useless in terms of information one can actually use in learning or decision making (other than using the linear workflow makes things look more realistic without the need for as much tweaking in compositing) but it was definitely mentioned.

When I first bought Lightwave, it was after LW6 had been announced but before it shipped. I first received LW 5.6 and I didn't get to see LW6 until after it went gold. There were no open betas or online video demonstrations. There were a lot of new features, a new interface design, and the chance that plugins and lscripts would continue to work. Now THAT was an unknown.

4dartist
09-22-2010, 10:42 AM
^ agree with above ^

Couldn't have said it better.

dwburman
09-22-2010, 02:01 PM
I do understand 3dWannabe's questions and concerns with LW10's bug fixes and stability... especially on the Mac.

GraphXs
09-22-2010, 05:55 PM
Well, just buy it, try the beta, and if ya don't like what ya see...get your money back. Or wait until Q4 or after that, wait for the reviews and full feature list and pay more.

It's not complicated, and if some plug-in doesn't work, you will have 9.6.1 still working!

IMO it's great to be apart of the Beta and discuss what expectations the users have. It's nice to have that communication wit Rob and Chuck and great that we can be apart of the future dev. of LW.

Chuck
09-22-2010, 06:22 PM
I'm really confused.

Even if I put my money down for LW10, I don't get software I can use as I understand (I'm not under non-disclosure for LW10) that

[Confidential information removed by the moderators]

The moderation team has removed the confidential information regarding HardCORE. We ask you to please respect confidential information whether you are a HardCORE member or not.

Yes, software in alpha and beta stages of development is not for production, and the advance purchase offer that HardCORE membership represents is not for everyone.

That said, for software that "shouldn't" or as some say "can't" be used, LightWave 10's new Layout and Modeler are actually getting exercise in several professional pipelines, something we certainly never anticipated would be the case at this point. The new linear colorspace workflow is perhaps the dominant new feature driving the early adoption. Please take this as just a comment we're sharing on events of interest, not a recommendation for the use of beta in production. We're still working on it, after all.


I am in the 9.6.1 beta, but I can't discuss that here or how that experience affects my desire to purchase LW10 due to 'non-disclosure'.

I can't try LW10 for a limited time (they do this for the betas, the keys are always expiring, so why can't I get a trial key for LW10)?

There's nothing unusual here. This is not a shipping product, but one still in testing and development. There will be a trial edition for anyone to try out when the product ships. NewTek has never provided free advance access to a new version in development. A qualifying purchase has always been a requirement, in all previous "Open Beta" cycles just as with HardCORE, which is essentially just a variation of pre-purchase of the forthcoming LightWave 10 upgrade with Open Beta access.



I noticed a whole lot of the early supporters jumping ship from LW10, so I don't exactly know what to think of that, as I can't read or post to the LW10 forums -- isn't that crazy?????

A few people have dropped out of HardCORE. NewTek was very aware that the very early access to a product in development would not be for everyone and we've remained willing to let folks withdraw if they chose to do so. Apologies, but I'd have to say that much of your phrasing seems to chosen to be alarmist in nature. That's simply not representative of the situation.

Are there any beta forums that you can read and post to when you are not signed up for that beta?


I'd be happy if there were a paid subscription for just bug fixes. Just fix all the bugs in 9.6 and forget about new features.

The v9.6.1 update is still in progress, and is free to all v9 owners. We have not released builds for a while but will resume doing so shortly. Some of the work we will have in progress on stability for the v10 update will also be applicable to v9.6.1 and so will be integrated there as well. For that reason closure on v9.6.1 may end up being concurrent or even a little later than the v10 release, but will thus include fixes that it would not have had, had we elected to close out development earlier.


The LW10 'deal' expires on Sept 30???

I just don't have enough information to make an informed purchasing decision - and of course, no one under 'non-disclosure' can even answer my questions about this?

Did I fall asleep and wake up in China? There are things we can't talk about? LW10 is so secret (after being shown at many trade shows) that a veil of silence (more like a 'cone of silence') surrounds it because all the other greedy 3D companies like Maya want to steal LW's secrets?

Ahhhhh!

Again, there is nothing new here and for that matter what's different from other 3D applications is that there is at least some information about beta progress available, whereas other folks would not likely have released as much information as has been regarding v10, some of it very far in advance of the expect shipping date. Purchasing at this point is not for everyone and if you need more information, from the sound of things your preference would be to test out the trial edition after LightWave 10 releases, and base a purchase decision on that. That's a very valid approach and the one that we expect will appeal to most of the userbase. We are working hard to insure that even at the release price the update will be a great value to purchasers.

When has anyone not actually enrolled in a beta program ever been allowed to test alpha or beta editions of Maya, Max or XSI, on request, in order to determine if they would want to buy that edition on release? So, there's nothing new on that score.

We have provided a limited amount of information and some demos, and folks who feel confident based on our track record that the release product will be a great value, can choose to purchase in advance at a discount. This comes with the benefit of advance access to the product in development, for those interested in alpha and beta testing. Many will not be, and that's understandable, and that's why we have been flexible about the membership for those who found the testing experience at these stages did not suit them.

geo_n
09-22-2010, 10:56 PM
I'm really confused.


I would wait until its actually released. This is not only for Core. Any software, plugins, etc that are still in early development. Bought too many stuff that promised to be developed further or have features that were not delivered. Unless you have disposable cash its better to wait. Lw 9.6 is rock solid and stable and many tricks that I've still yet to learn.

colkai
09-23-2010, 03:14 AM
I'd agree with geo_n, I bought in early and soon regretted it, so pulled out.
As and when CORE finally arrives, dependent upon finances, I may look at it again, but so far, given the embryonic stage of development, I will hold off for the foreseeable future. Newtek have now made it very clear LW10 is 3 products, Layout, modeller and CORE then anyone wanting to just have "CORE" as a product is definitely going to have to wait a not inconsiderable amount of time for that, until that point, it will simply be part of the Lightwave Suite of apps.

paladin82203
09-28-2010, 12:14 AM
Well, just buy it, try the beta, and if ya don't like what ya see...get your money back. Or wait until Q4 or after that, wait for the reviews and full feature list and pay more.

It's not complicated, and if some plug-in doesn't work, you will have 9.6.1 still working!

IMO it's great to be apart of the Beta and discuss what expectations the users have. It's nice to have that communication wit Rob and Chuck and great that we can be apart of the future dev. of LW.

This sounds easy - to try and return if you don't like it, but I don't see a return policy on the NewTek's site that would indicate this is possible:

"NewTek values its relationship with you, and offers you the option to return most unopened products you purchase directly from NewTek. You may return eligible products for a credit or a refund of the purchase price paid, less shipping and handling and any applicable restocking fees, as set forth in detail below..

15 Day Return Period for NewTek Products and Accessories: Unless you have a separate agreement with NewTek, or except as provided below, all hardware, accessories, peripherals, parts, and media-based software that is unopened and still in its sealed package or, that has not been downloaded, may be returned within 15 days from the date on the packing slip or invoice for a credit, or a refund of the purchase price paid, less shipping and handling and any applicable restocking fees."

Very much do not want to be left out of the upgrade loop. The purported $695 (after promo ends) upgrade price would essentially lock me into 9.6 indefinitely, so I may just bite the bullet and plunk down the $500 now, but it would be nice to know I could still return it if it didn't work out.

heavyhz
09-28-2010, 12:47 AM
I got LW9.6 a yr ago and ready to get 10 NOW but someone said I should wait til Dec. to upgrade for 150.00 vs 495.00, but after hearing some posts is that even worth it?

biliousfrog
09-28-2010, 02:06 AM
I got LW9.6 a yr ago and ready to get 10 NOW but someone said I should wait til Dec. to upgrade for 150.00 vs 495.00, but after hearing some posts is that even worth it?

Where did you hear that? Upgrade for $150?...you sure it wasn't $1500

Kuzey
09-28-2010, 03:45 AM
Where did you hear that? Upgrade for $150?...you sure it wasn't $1500

I would have thought it would be free....since 9.6 was bought after the core reveal...by the sounds of it.

Unless....it was bought second hand from a private user??


Kuzey

3dWannabe
09-28-2010, 08:45 AM
The new linear colorspace workflow is perhaps the dominant new feature driving the early adoption.



That may be the case, but without seeing it??? That video on the linear workflow told me NOTHING.

Without this, I can only base my decision on its usefulness on Gerardo's comments about it, which I won't repeat here. [and in all fairness, may not be valid comments any longer as the software could have changed]



I'd have to say that much of your phrasing seems to chosen to be alarmist in nature


Actually, my comments were designed to tell Newtek exactly how I feel. I really like Lightwave, I've continued to purchase plug-ins for it, and I actually want it to succeed very badly. I'd gladly put my money down just for updates.

That's why I'm making my comments here - as I made other comments in another forum where I didn't get any response at all, for maybe two months from NT, until a few days ago.

That tends to make for a very unhappy insecure LW user.

It should not be necessary for me to make any comments if the PR and communication were better.

And that's what I want to communicate.


When has anyone not actually enrolled in a beta program ever been allowed to test alpha or beta editions of Maya, Max or XSI, on request, in order to determine if they would want to buy that edition on release? So, there's nothing new on that score.


I beta tested Turbulence, which is still in beta, without cost.

I thought it was so well done that I bought it.

My guess is this would apply to any software.

The more folks who test it, the more bug reports you have.

The more folks who like what they see and work with, the more users who purchase.

Just because X,Y and Z don't do something doesn't imply that it's a good idea.

Lightwave should be the BEST, not just follow the example of the developers who use the 'dark side' of the force such as AD (actually, I have no direct knowledge of AD yet, but have not heard folks rejoicing when software was bought by them. As I get more into my recent purchase of MotionBuilder I'll have a better feel for them. I just don't have time to learn Maya 2011 even though I own it now. From what I hear, LW kicks Maya's butt for most TV and movie productions anyway as far as speed and quality are concerned)

paladin82203
09-28-2010, 09:05 AM
I got LW9.6 a yr ago and ready to get 10 NOW but someone said I should wait til Dec. to upgrade for 150.00 vs 495.00, but after hearing some posts is that even worth it?

Huwa? $150? Where did you see this?

Intuition
09-28-2010, 10:16 AM
I feel the need to chime in here.

Though I haven't used LW much over the last 3 years, due to the maya/vray pipelines emerging everywhere, I do have many friends who do use it daily at work at a few different fx facilities. The LW10 addition to their pipeline has greatly eased parts of the workflow as opposed to working in 9.6x.

I applaud NT for keeping classic LW going. I have been vocal about how I want more focus on Core but overall, even if they had 100 people on Core dev I would still want more. ;)

None the less NT has made a wise decision with LW10 and have helped numerous businesses keep deadlines tight and efficient.

I pretty much beta test every software in existence and NT is not doing anything less fair then any other beta program. Ultimately, though NT does not have as much dev power as say AD, they listen to the user base much more then they are given credit for.

3dWannabe
09-28-2010, 10:33 AM
I feel the need to chime in here.

Though I haven't used LW much over the last 3 years, due to the maya/vray pipelines emerging everywhere, I do have many friends who do use it daily at work at a few different fx facilities. The LW10 addition to their pipeline has greatly eased parts of the workflow as opposed to working in 9.6x.

I applaud NT for keeping classic LW going. I have been vocal about how I want more focus on Core but overall, even if they had 100 people on Core dev I would still want more. ;)

None the less NT has made a wise decision with LW10 and have helped numerous businesses keep deadlines tight and efficient.

I pretty much beta test every software in existence and NT is not doing anything less fair then any other beta program. Ultimately, though NT does not have as much dev power as say AD, they listen to the user base much more then they are given credit for.

Can you be specific as to how it has helped them?

For instance, I've been using fprime, G2, SG CCTools for immediate viewing, color management and linear workflow. (might not have bought them if LW10 info were more public early on)

Could you elaborate on how LW10 has improved this?

3dWannabe
09-29-2010, 06:28 PM
Well, I've decided that if I'm going to expect bug fixes, I've got to support Newtek and order tomorrow.

They may not be doing everything the way I want, but they are certainly moving forward.

Keeping modeler and layout for LW10 is what I wanted in the short term, and the real-time renders and linear workflow were important enough to me to piece them together with some expensive 3rd party plug-ins - so I really should be happy they are being integrated into LW10.

I've got a better chance of getting a great finished product if I support them now, than if I wait and see - as every company needs revenue to support new development.

All in all, I've been quite happy with Newtek, it's the best out there - and was just a bit frustrated this last month due to my perception of a lack of communication in another forum, which is no longer a problem.

Onwards ... thru the Fog!