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mercz
09-20-2003, 07:23 AM
Hi,
I am long time linux fan and user
I am curious what ratio is (can be) among users of three main OS in case of suppositional conditions.
1. You are going to buy new LW seat.
2. Newtek offers Lightwave for Linux (let's say for RedHat distro), Mac OSX and Windows 2k/XP at the same conditions (price, support etc.).
3. All of the plugins that you are using are available for that OS too.
4. Other apllications (like image editor, compositing appl.) are available too or you have to crossgrade to other one.

I guess that these conditions are suppositional right now (2. and 3.) but in near future ...?

Martin

Hiraghm
09-20-2003, 09:58 AM
I would actually prefer either Mac or Linux, but lean toward Linux. However, any OS will do to get away from Windows; I just don't like the idea of licensing my computer from Microsoft.

"Want to use your $2,000 computer? No problem; license it with Microsoft and we will control all that you see and hear..."

Beamtracer
09-20-2003, 05:47 PM
Polls about what platform people use (or want to use) are often not very accurate.

For example, many of the Mac users stay in the Lightwave Mac forum, and there are quite a lot who don't venture into the community forum.

I get the impression that lots of the Windows users hang out in the Community forum, as the Windows section doesn't get many posts.

Linux users (well, Screamernet users) don't have their own section, though it's official policy for Linux issues to be posted in the Windows-PC forum.

In fact, I wonder how Newtek keeps statistics about how many users are on each platform. The duo-dongle means that Mac and Windows users get the same package.


Linux & Mac: I'm not a programmer, but I often wonder whether a Linux and Mac Lightwave could be created with some commonality in the code base. After all, both platforms have a UNIX heritage.

Linux & Windows There would be some advantages to using Linux on an x86 PC. Lower costs. Your Opterons would gain access to their full 64-bit architecture.

milkman
09-20-2003, 07:05 PM
I agree with hiraghm

hairy_llama
09-20-2003, 07:30 PM
I would start using linux this second if all my graphics apps worked on it.

Beamtracer
09-21-2003, 05:37 AM
Do people really like using Microsoft Windows?

Karmacop
09-21-2003, 05:52 AM
I don' think so, I think the problem is they're using 5 other programs that only run on windows.

I'd personally use OSX if it ran on x86 .. ahh .. I can dream can't I? ;)

Sho
09-21-2003, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Linux & Mac: I'm not a programmer, but I often wonder whether a Linux and Mac Lightwave could be created with some commonality in the code base. After all, both platforms have a UNIX heritage.
Unfortunately, it's not as easy. "Under the hood", both are Unix-derived operating systems, but the graphics layers are very dissimilar. Properly porting LightWave's GUI portion to X11 (the most commonly used graphical sub-system in the Unix/Linux world) is not a trivial task and probably couldn't be done without some serious effort.

Matt
09-21-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Do people really like using Microsoft Windows?

You know I thought I'de never say this but Windows ain't too bad these days!

I was a total Mac head for years, hated Windows (still don't like Bill Gates) but _had_ to go Windows due to certain software not being available on Mac (SolidWorks).

But after playing a little with OSX (an early version admittedly) I didn't like it!

Sure it looks nice in places, and it was different, but a lot of it I found gimmicky, and the big rounded pulsating buttons look child-like, the screen font is too big and you can't change it! I don't know it looked a little playskool!

I was un-impressed unlike the rest of the world! I think they lost something in the change over, and certain areas I think they actually made more difficult to use in the process (the file requesters for one, which is why in the upcoming "Panther" they've changed them)

http://a320.g.akamai.net/7/320/51/58fc2fadce18ec/www.apple.com/macosx/panther/images/index_finder_062303.jpg

But that's the OS, the 'i' apps I think are Apples best efforts to date, they are so simple and clean, and not gimmicky, they should roll that philosophy out to the rest of the OS.

Having said that XP's 'luna' theme is much, much worse - a knee jerk reaction to Aqua basically (I have my XP set to Windows 2000 look)

I prefer the look of FinalCut Pro and the like, they should go that route IMO.

Having used both OS's extensively, I like how OSX does certain things, I also like how Windows does certain things.

But Apple always pay more attention to detail though, Microsoft haven't grapsed that yet!

(This is where I get shot down my some Mac die-hards now!)

:)

Beamtracer
09-21-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
I'd personally use OSX if it ran on x86 .. ahh .. I can dream can't I? ;)

If you like making a low cost build-your-own box then you'd probably need a x86 with Linux or Windows.

If it's speed issues you're thinking about, the G5 holds it's own against Xeons.

If it's the G5 processor you like, don't forget that IBM will soon bring out boxes with the same IBM970 (G5) processor in it, but running Linux.

If Newtek did do a full port for Linux it would take a while to gain momentum. At first there would be no plug-ins, but eventually the main plug-ins would arrive, maybe after a couple of years.

Sho
09-21-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
If Newtek did do a full port for Linux it would take a while to gain momentum. At first there would be no plug-ins, but eventually the main plug-ins would arrive, maybe after a couple of years.

If NewTek did a proper port of its SDK, porting plug-ins shouldn't take very long, actually.

hrgiger
09-21-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Do people really like using Microsoft Windows?

Yes.

cresshead
09-21-2003, 10:13 AM
the nice things about a windows pc?

cheap
powerful
easy to use
all the top 3d apps are on it..maya unlimited,xsi,max,houdini,lightwave.

linux?..
v cheap and a good fast stable o/s that runs on a pototoe hooked up to the mains..ie you don't need load of ram n fast pc to run it well...unlike windows.

mac?
looks nice and is potentially a good bet now that renderman is on it so that it may entice more 3d app to it and maybe maya unlimited and xsi at s ome point that would then give it a good reason to look into it more as a serious contender for hi end film work.

of course a max g3 g4 or g5 is a quite capable pc for lightwave or maya complete just that the plugins IF you need them are in lower number and may cost more.

mac's look nice too. a bit OTT for the price/power currently.

stee+cats

GruvSyco
09-22-2003, 01:17 AM
I'd like to see LW for OSX on x86.

mercz
09-22-2003, 03:04 AM
Beamtracer I am sure that are often not very accurate . Indeed it is not what I want. I would like to find out reasons why people want to change their current OS (or to stay with).
At first there would be no plug-ins Of course but Newtek have to port LW to linux first. We can't await any plugins for nonexisting product.

Sho It can't be harder than previous port to OSX. I am not sure but I suppose that LW GUI is programmed being independent. LW OSX does'nt look as a native OSX apllication.

My point of view:
It is hard to compare because all three OS have different business policy, different main application area, different market share ...

Linux
little or no professional apllications, all other things are better than Mac and Win FOR ME
Mac
overpriced PC architecture with different processor (exclusive goods) and sophisticated GUI, goodish amount of the professional apllications
Windows
NT platform is quiet stable (I have never used 3.1,95 or 98), almost all applications, 'disgusting' business policy


Martin

mercz
09-22-2003, 03:04 AM
But I want not to start a flamewar :-)

Martin

tasmanian
09-22-2003, 03:20 AM
I originally came from the Amiga so I know about the "culture shock" moving onto a PC. I have to say though that XP isn't that bad compared to previous windows versions, didn't have a crash yet. That's the main point for me, I don't want things to look fancy, I want them to simply work. Some sort of XPLite or OSXLite without all the gizmo's and gadgets would be perfect. (okay, I guess LinuxLite would be okay too). I think LW should be available for all platforms. Choice is always a good thing to have.

Elmar Moelzer
09-22-2003, 03:24 AM
I think many people here have little idea what it means to port a software over to another OS/platform.
This does not just mean a recompile or something.
There are currently tons of plugins that actually ship with LW.
All these will have to be redone too.
Then there are tiny incompatibilities especially in the graphics- area, that have to be considered.
Every platform has some small limits. If you want to have LW behave the same on all of them, you will limit other platforms as well.
One example is support for D3D. Users of other platforms than Windows would have no benefit from that.
If NT added D3D- support I can see some Mac- users feel neglected by NT.
There are other things like these that apply to every platform.
Some Mac- users want LW to get an interface, that is more mac- like.
So IMHO, the more platforms get supported the more compromises there will be.
Never forget that.
One thing really puzzles me too: 3DS MAX is one of the most popular 3d- apps out there and it is only available for Windows.
CU
Elmar

Sho
09-22-2003, 03:57 AM
mercz: No, it's not harder that porting it to OSX, that's true. But it is also a matter of fact that there are two times as many Mac seats as there are Linux seats, especially in multimedia.

And just for protocol, I'm running Linux and LightWave on Linux via wine.

Phil
09-22-2003, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by Elmar Moelzer
I think many people here have little idea what it means to port a software over to another OS/platform.
This does not just mean a recompile or something.
There are currently tons of plugins that actually ship with LW.
All these will have to be redone too.


Not being familiar with the LW SDK, I am not sure, but I had the impression that most of these plugins were designed to exploit the SDK to build the interface. As such, you make the changes at the SDK level, abstracted out to the interfaces that the plugin expects to find. Then it should actually be a recompile for the most part. I am happy to be corrected on this, but I had the distinct impression that the only real changes between the code bases of LW (at least in the past) were the OS and CPU specifics. In that case, what's different about adding linux to that scenario?



One example is support for D3D. Users of other platforms than Windows would have no benefit from that.
If NT added D3D- support I can see some Mac- users feel neglected by NT.


LW 5.5 and 5.6 did have D3D support, but it seems to have disappeared with LW6 and later. I can understand why (to some extent - feature parity), but this does limit the potential for game design because 3dsmax (for example) folks can preview their designs in the package.



There are other things like these that apply to every platform.
Some Mac- users want LW to get an interface, that is more mac- like.
So IMHO, the more platforms get supported the more compromises there will be.
Never forget that.
One thing really puzzles me too: 3DS MAX is one of the most popular 3d- apps out there and it is only available for Windows.
CU
Elmar

Well yes, but I get the impression that discreet is beginning to look at the linux situation.

I would note that both Maya and Softimage have linux ports, but both are affected by the library differences between distributions. Even NT's own LWSN doesn't work happily under Redhat 9 due to a hard to locate library from an Intel compiler (should have been statically linked, guys). The only way to protect against these kind of problems (prevalent under linux) is to statically compile everything. The question then becomes one of the licensing, I guess.....

Personally, if they could spare a programmer to make the dongles work with Wine, that's all it would take for me to be happy. I don't need a native port (and complete loss of plugin access), but simply to be able to use the Windows version, unmolested, under linux.

Sho
09-22-2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Phil
Not being familiar with the LW SDK, I am not sure, but I had the impression that most of these plugins were designed to exploit the SDK to build the interface. As such, you make the changes at the SDK level, abstracted out to the interfaces that the plugin expects to find.

It's mostly about porting the SDK and base libraries to X11, yes.

Beamtracer
09-22-2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Elmar Moelzer
3DS MAX is one of the most popular 3d- apps out there and it is only available for Windows.
The reason Discreet doesn't port it is because its got all this old x86 code entwined around itself like spaghetti. They've tried before and they can't unravel it.

If they could port it to the Mac they'd make a lot of money, considering other cross platform 3D apps have between 25-50% Mac users. This will become more evident with Apple bringing out new IBM based hardware.

I mean, what is Discreet going to do about all that old Max code? They're even going to have a difficult time trying to recompile it for the new 64-bit platforms. 3D Max is going to lose market share.

mattclary
09-22-2003, 07:13 AM
Very happy with Windows XP. I'll believe the G5s outperform everything when I see some LightWave benchmarks on Blanos.com.

DarkLight
09-22-2003, 07:34 AM
I have a Mac and a PC, and I'm happy to run windows. There are areas of it i don't like, but i can say that about any operating system.

I've used OS9, OSX, Windows (All versions), Many versions of Linux, Solaris and others. Each OS has it's good point and bad points. The only interest i have in the OS now is good support by applications and stability.

Elmar Moelzer
09-22-2003, 08:00 AM
Hehe, if it only was that easy.
In fact you can use very OS- speciffic stuff in a plugin.
There are actually some developers around that have real problems porting their plugins to Mac.
Dont get me wrong, this is not the fault of Apple, it just means that a port is often not as easy as a simple recompile.
Well, as I am not a big fan of discreets products, I am not that much concerend about MAX loosing market- share and yes I have heard about their crappy code...
Still, there are many users that really like the D3D- preview in MAX, especially among the game- developers.
A Linux- version of MAX would not have D3D- support (of course not), so I think that a big part of the MAX- customers would have little interest in that. Also I have heard that the OpenGL in MAX is actually inferior to the D3D, because of not as good OpenGL- programing, making this again less interesting.
Then MAX depends even more on plugins than LW. Without that they would not even have an acceptable renderer (no MR, no Brazil, no Final Render). This too makes a linux- port less realistic.
The problem is that if you want to spread your customers over many platforms, you need to offer about the same for each, or it would make little sense, IMHO.
Ask a bit arround among the Mac- LW- users. I think that many of them would not be too happy with NT spending dev- time and dev- money into something they have no benefit of.
In the end Mac and PC- versions of LW cost the same, you know...
AFAIK the dongles are not developed by NT themselves.
CU
Elmar

pixelmonk
09-22-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Do people really like using Microsoft Windows?

I do. It has everything I need. I can run all my apps, games, and hardware on a single platform. Granted, I know that some apps *MIGHT* (a big might) run faster on a slimmed down, but the platform tests currently out there don't impress me enough to switch to Loonux. For people to say you "license your PC" from MS is a load of bat dung. You license the OS just like any other software. Most MS bashing is people not thinking for themselves and jumping on the bandwagon. They're the first to jump off the bridge just because others are doing it. Think for yourself.. don't be part of the flock. It's great to get something for free, but sometimes it pays to pay. BTW, if Red Hat (the monopoly) has their way, you'll one day be paying for their distro (as much as Windows). Linux or the Mac wouldn't be such a powerful alternative to Windows if Windows weren't a player in itself. Competition fuels change. AMD vs. Intel is a prime example. Years ago it was Intel pretty much it, in the Windows platform. AMD came along with the Athlon and Intel was blown away. Intel made a stand and outpaced AMD with the PIV. Enter the 64-bit chip era. Once again, AMD is gaining speed. If it weren't for competition between Apple, MS, and the pack of Linux developers, we wouldn't be where we are today.

I've been lucky not to have some of the problems others have had. A lot of the problems aren't in fact with Windows itself, yet other developers and hardware coders. There's a lot of crap code out there and the first company people blame is MS. I've seen everything from directories to log files to DLLs that have remained on my system thanks to a company writing a shotty uninstall. Lightwave 6 install had a few problems, if I remember correctly. Then there's the pointless registry entries which seem to accumulate but never get erased once the program is uninstalled. Developers need to either take a bit more pride in their work or pay attention to detail.

I'm not waving the MS banner, by any means, but I know what works, and has worked for years, for me. To each his own.

:cool:

anieves
09-22-2003, 11:53 AM
Is Max really that popular? Half of the copies out there are probably cracks! How in the hell can discreet keep developing Max?

Anyway, I have a Mac a a PC I love OSX but PCs are by far cheaper, that's just the truth but the main reason that I work on the PC now is because that's what my employer's workplace has and we run some soft not available for the Mac. Graphics cards are MUCH better on the PC side as well.

If Apple made a PC version of OSX I wonder how many PC users would ditch MS. I would in no time flat!

cresshead
09-22-2003, 12:34 PM
last i heard 3dsmax had 200,000 liecenced users and 8 out of 10 games had 3dsmax in the production pipline...a pretty big number eh?
i'd imagine that the games are on the slide a bit now with maya being so cheap thesedays...

so for a 3d app that has only EVER been on microsoft o/s is done really well!

in the end the o/s is just a file format..the app is what i want to use not a file/ folder storage system....

if lightwave came out only on sun sparc or sgi irix..i'd have to figure out a way to get it!....

steve g:D ;)

anieves
09-23-2003, 07:47 AM
errr... I was being a little sarcastic.

but I'll tell you, I don't personally know any of those 200k ppl they claim OWN a copy of Max...

Karmacop
09-23-2003, 08:34 AM
Well you can't sell a 3DS license to if someone has one they're stuck with it, and they can only buy it new. If they go from a max 4 license to a max 5 license is that counted at 2 licenses or 1? So anyway, it's 200,000 licenses of how ever many years .. like 6 or so? Then what is there rendering license like? Do they need one for each render node? But as you can see, even though maybe their license number isn't inflated a great deal it is still inflated.

Just think about when 3DS was the only cheap 3d software with uvmapping, alot of game companies would have bought a copy. And which year was this that 8 out of 10 games used it? If it was 5 years I go I may have believed you, but not anymore.

hrgiger
09-23-2003, 10:00 AM
If Discreet didn't charge elitest pricing for their software, they'd make a hell of a lot more money then if they ported it to the Macintosh. Max has more pirates then a free pegleg and booty convention.

cresshead
09-23-2003, 10:42 AM
hi i know we're going a bit off topic here but the reference to 200,000 and 8 out of 10 games [re MAX] was made at the time of max 4 release about 2001 and regarding render nodes you have 10,000 fee render nodes in max scanline renderer..other renderers differ of course such as final render,brazil, vray and now mental ray.

BTW i am one of those 200,000!...though i've not upgraded to max 5 and max 6 looks as though i'll pass on that as well.the reason is that lightwave is now my "choice" 3d software..i still use 3dsmax as some things are just plain simpler/faster in it but on the whole i'll be moving to 90%-100% lightwave 8
i can use both with import export and fbx on the most part.

as re pricing of max well, they havn't changed the price since it was released in 1996 whereas maya started off at 28,000 then 7000 for the base module and now 1400plus vat.
so if anything maya has been very elitest...
I think nowdays that 3dsmax looks quite expensive and also in a minority of one being ONLY available on windowsNT and it's variants [win2000,winxp,winhomexp]

i know personally about 4 max owners but the number of lightwave owner grows each week as i teach the lightwave class at college..it's so affordable and you get the choice of mac or pc AFTER you have bought it and not like cinema or maya where you have to make your platform choise as you buy it and onlyget version...mac OR pc...way to go newtek!..you took over the reain that metacreation started with bryce 3!

steve g

hairy_llama
10-02-2003, 02:53 PM
According to this poll, more ppl would like to use LW on linux then mac. Maybe Newtek really should think about porting it to linux...

jcool
10-02-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Do people really like using Microsoft Windows?

Sure.. I use OSX heavily, but I like the Windows Explorer cut/paste file interface much better than the Mac finder (although the shortcut tab at the top on OSX is great). Being able to cut/paste/rename and click and save over files in the open/save boxes is something I really miss on the Mac as well. Windows has it's rough spots, but it generally works very well, especially if you buy good hardware and you know what you're doing.

mlinde
10-02-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by hairy_llama
According to this poll, more ppl would like to use LW on linux then mac. Maybe Newtek really should think about porting it to linux...
The problem with this (and any poll) is how it is promoted and circulated. I can tell you that I've see less than 10 names who regularly post in the Mac section of the boards out here. It's like they come to the forum, drop into the Mac forum, and leave. I'll see if I can rouse some of them for you ;)

hairy_llama
10-02-2003, 07:14 PM
There are at least 22 mac users who added their input to the poll... And the windows vs. mac on this poll sounds about right to me, I believe that there are more windows users...
I really did find this interesting though, I thought there would be like 5 linux vs. 100 windows/mac users.

Beamtracer
10-02-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
I'll see if I can rouse some of them for you ;) I don't think there'd be much point calling in people from the Mac section of this forum, at this late stage. Not unless you started a new poll.


Originally posted by hairy_llama
I believe that there are more windows users
You don't know what the ratio between Mac and Windows users is. Newtek said about a year and a half ago that they were generating more Mac Lightwave sales to Windows Lightwave sales.

A year and a half later that could have changed, especially since the Lightwave promotions have been aimed at Windows users. But don't think Mac users are an insignificant minority. They claim a substantial proportion of Lightwave sales.

I wonder if even Newtek knows the exact platform ratio. Now that the "duo" dongle is out (Mac and Windows versions are included in every box) it would be very difficult for Newtek to know who's using what.

Also, with new fast Apple hardware out, more may be tempted to go Mac.

Earl
10-02-2003, 11:20 PM
That's a good point, Beam. With each box of LW capable of installing on Macs and PCs, the ratio between the two has to be hard to track. After all, one seat of LW could count for both.

But regardless, as I pointed out in your other thread, votes are votes. It doesn't matter when they occur, the results aren't based on how quickly the vote is cast, but on how many votes are cast. The longer the poll runs, the more accurate it will be (well, in theory). Starting again would only deter people from every participating in these things (not that it's even that useful since many LW users don't even browse these forums).

hrgiger
10-03-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

You don't know what the ratio between Mac and Windows users is. Newtek said about a year and a half ago that they were generating more Mac Lightwave sales to Windows Lightwave sales.

A year and a half later that could have changed, especially since the Lightwave promotions have been aimed at Windows users. But don't think Mac users are an insignificant minority. They claim a substantial proportion of Lightwave sales.


I don't remember Newtek saying this but hey it could have happened. It'd be nice to see some actual numbers.
They say Lightwave sales, were they talking upgrades too? Because I could see that being true if there were already a large base of windows users but a higher number of new sales for the mac platform...
I guess my hunch would tell me that overall there are probably many more windows licenses out there then mac ones.

Jockomo
10-03-2003, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Do people really like using Microsoft Windows?

Yep, another satisfied windows user here.

Don't you ever get tired of defending the macs Beam? I'm a little worried that if you wave that Mac flag any harder you might break your arm.

js33
10-03-2003, 02:30 AM
I bet his arm is getting pretty tired by now. ;)

Beam don't you have some real work to do? Or does Apple pay you to post all this Pro Mac-Anti PC stuff. Oh wait that's Ed.

Cheers,
JS

mattclary
10-03-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by js33
I bet his arm is getting pretty tired by now. ;)


LMAO! From waving the flag or using his mouse left handed while surfing for pics of the G5!?

hrgiger
10-03-2003, 07:22 AM
Beam sounds to me like those stupid Mac commercials (not calling you stupid Beam, just the Mac commercials-Well, except for the ones with Jeff Goldblum...he rocks). You know the commercials where they have the people that supposedly used a pc before and now they use a Macintosh and this one was amazed at how his Mac didn't crash and this one how easy it was to plug in their digital camera. All I have to say about this is how retarded are these people? Has anyone ever heard of plug and play? Because everyone in the pc world has and if a now mac user couldn't figure out how to plug in hardware into their pc, well, they don't deserve a computer in the first place. And if they're pc was crashing all the time, well that sounds to me like they don't know they're computer better then any other piece of hardware they couldn't figure out how to plug into it.

VWTornado
10-03-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
However, any OS will do to get away from Windows; I just don't like the idea of licensing my computer from Microsoft.

What do you mean by that? Can you explain further?

gggraphx
10-03-2003, 11:03 AM
Just thought I'd vote.

Mac OS X. It's what I use.:)

hrgiger
10-03-2003, 11:46 AM
VWTornado, I've been meaning to ask. Why is your avatar guy ####### the Honda logo?

VWTornado
10-03-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
VWTornado, I've been meaning to ask. Why is your avatar guy ####### the Honda logo?

Thats how much I respect Honda's. ;) I've been meaning to change that avatar actually. I think he's ###### the Honda logo long enough. :D

Alliante
10-03-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
And if they're pc was crashing all the time, well that sounds to me like they don't know they're computer better then any other piece of hardware they couldn't figure out how to plug into it.

Actually it's a pretty common thing to happen with the 9x series of Windows.

I've yet to see Windows 2000 or XP give me crap more than once every other month or so (I leave my boxen on 24/7/365). I reboot perhaps once a month to update my drivers (though lately windowsupdate has had me reboot a few more times than I usually do, but this has slowed down).

I'm sure that those silly Mac commercials were geared towards disgruntled Windows 95 and 98 owners of older computers.

js33
10-03-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
LMAO! From waving the flag or using his mouse left handed while surfing for pics of the G5!?

Actually he uses the mouse with his foot since it only has one button while waving the flag with his left arm and shaking his fist in disgust with the right arm.

Cheers,
JS

eblu
10-03-2003, 02:38 PM
wow.
no wonder i don't visit this forum. I agree with beamTracer on many points, and even Ed Mag when it comes right down to the opinion part of his speeches (Its too much work to read many of his posts). And if Beam's bias is blindingly pro-mac, Its my opinion that this thread is anti-beam. And thats just a bit too personal a jab in my book.
Its been my experience that Apple gets a bum rap, when it comes to hardware, over performance/price/ and usefulness. i like the overwhelming optimism stemming from these guys, they offer a VALID and interesting Opinion.

As for Ed being paid to voice other people's opinions... I don't believe it. You couldn't pay me enough money to be That enthusiastic, I couldn't even fake it.

gentlemen...
-eblu

js33
10-03-2003, 04:22 PM
Hi eblu,

We're just poking a little fun at Beam. Nothing personal as I agree with much of what he says also. While I'm not sure what to think of Ed. He usually invites attacks on himself because of the pompous attitude he usually takes.

Cheers,
JS

stone
10-04-2003, 05:39 AM
i came directly from amiga to windows in 2001, and after installing directoryopus, xp had gotten somewhat usefull. though its still terrible at multitasking and programswitching its not a particular bad operatingsystem.

-----

having lightwave running on linux, mac, windows, beos and whatever, isnt really hard if the c(++) code was developed from skratch to support being ported. then it would come down to writing a different graphicsdriver for each system. which would also mean that the windows version could easily support both opengl and directx through simple drivers.

i dont know what state the lightwave sourcecode is in, by i got the impression that they are going to rewrite most of it towards v9, so hopefully they keep portability in mind.

-----

concerning max and pirats, you have to remember that illeagal copies are what earns discreet their money. having your software being the standard that everyone copies, also means that people when getting jobs will want to use your software and will push the companies into buying your 3d program, despite its higher price.

imagine microsoft made windows impossible to pirate. they would instantly loose most of the operatingsystem marked.

if i hadnt been able to get a pirated version of lightwave back in the days, i wouldn't ever have tried it out, and newtek would have lost me as customer and evangelist.

being heavily pirated _can_ be a good thing, since those serious about the 3d will eventually make money for newtek directly or indirectly.

/stone

hairy_llama
10-04-2003, 03:16 PM
"if i hadnt been able to get a pirated version of lightwave back in the days, i wouldn't ever have tried it out, and newtek would have lost me as customer and evangelist. "

Same here. Everyone I know who is now using LW professionally bought it. If I found a copy of max or maya first on the net then I would be shelling out my money to discreet/alias wavefront.

CaptainKirk
10-05-2003, 09:31 AM
According to the SCRI/DMN Digital Media Facility Trends Report
( just released )

Windows 2000 Professional is the most used OS in digital media facilities.

62.2% of facilities use it.

Mac OSX is used by only 27.1% of facilities.

Another "Mac is used more by creatives" myth down the toilet.

hrgiger
10-05-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by CaptainKirk


Another "Mac is used more by creatives" myth down the toilet.

Well, it used to be true. I remember when I first got into graphics 4 years ago or so when I used to tell people I did computer graphics, they said, oh you must use a macintosh.

Well, no.

mlinde
10-05-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by CaptainKirk
Windows 2000 Professional is the most used OS in digital media facilities.
Having trouble with full facts again CK? CaptainKirk tries to start platform wars in all the forums.

In general, Win2K is 62%, MacOS (9) is 47%, WinNT is 36%, MacOS (10) is 27%.

The funny thing about this statistical reading is that none of the stats add up to just 100%, which means that almost every facet of digital media production is multi-OS. In fact, in many facets of digital media production, about 50% of facilities use MacOS9 machines, and around 30% have MacOSX machines. In comparison, WinXP rarely breaks the 25% mark. WinXP has been the "flagship" OS for Microsoft for a couple of years. MacOS X has been a viable OS for almost one.

I'm not surprised that Win2K does so well. It was released 4 years ago, included all the benefits of Win95 and WinNT, and has faced little real competition from Apple and the MacOS until recently. OSX, which has been a viable operating system for about a year is already at 30%. In comparison, XP was released before the first beta of OSX, but accounts for less than 25% of the market.

Win2K was the ideal OS for digital media production for three years. A solid OS, combined with fast machines and inexpensive tools. The funny thing is, XP doesn't have the same advantages. It's not significantly better than 2K, and has significant drawbacks in the EULA/registration. Now, Win2K faces competition from MacOS 10, which is a solid OS (as of 10.2), can be combined with fast machines (in the G5), and inexpensive tools. I'm not placing or taking any bets. I would not be surprised to see this market level out at 50-50 in the next year, if the economy picks up at all.

Tom Wood
10-05-2003, 03:43 PM
Here's an older article by Neal Stephenson called IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE COMMAND LINE. He makes a funny analogy between the OS and car dealerships. I haven't made it thru the entire piece, anyone have a Cliff's notes take on it?

http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

(I choose applications first, and the OS follows.)

TW

CaptainKirk
10-05-2003, 05:27 PM
No, I'm not having any trouble.

Those are the full facts.

OSX is installed in only 27% of digital media facilties.

Windows 2K in 62.2%

I wasn't mentioning Mac OS9 just as I wasn't counting Windows NT or XP. If I were, windows NT and XP together would account for even more difference over Mac OS9. So, I was doing you a favor actually.

There is no need to upgrade from Win 2K to XP because Win 2K is essentially the same and just as stable.

OSX is supposedly this big new thing and the fact that only 27% have it installed shows how little use digital media producers have for OSX.

You are simply making excuses for Macs again and again and again. And you are lying again, and again and again. Now you say Win 2K has faced little competition from Mac OS9, but back then, before OSX, you were one of the people ( like all Mac fanatics ) saying how Mac OS9 was far superior to Win 2K.
Same as with G5, now you and Jobs are saying that not only has Mac caught up , buy surpassed PC with the release of G5, but just a few months before you were telling us how G4 was faster than any Pentium and megahertz didn't matter
So how do you catch up if you have been ahead all this time
It's illogical, makes no sense and just shows what kind of liars Jobs and his followers are.

I'm not starting a war, just debunking myths started by Mac fanatics.Nonsense like : G5 is first, fastest, Slowest iMac is faster than the fastest pentium and over 90% of all digital artists use Macs eclusively. We see that numbers show the reality to be quite different.

mlinde
10-05-2003, 06:51 PM
1) OS X is in only 27% of facilites. I don't disagree. OS X wasn't a viable option until 10.2 came out last fall. I'm actually surprised that 27% have made the upgrade to OS X from OS 9 because it requires almost 100% software upgrades. Since you don't know anything about the reality of Mac-based content creation, here's a tip: OS X is actually being adopted slowly, and 27% is a surprisingly large number, especially with the economy in a slump.

2) I don't understand the bit about XP v. W2K. Are you telling me that Microsoft sells a $100 OS upgrade that no-one needs? That XP has no features over Win2K? And I hate to mention this (since it's your baby), but don't you NEED to be running XP to utilize the 64-bit features of the Itanium, Opteron, and Alpha64 processors? Isn't the 64-bit beta for Windows XP-64?

3) I have NEVER claimed Mac OS 9 was better than Windows 2000. You can make up all the propaganda and bulls*** you want. I have often argued that Win2K (and NT before it) is the reason MS exists in the digital content creation market. That the stability of NT and the inexpensive nature of the Win/Tel hardware was a big selling point to digital content businesses in the 90s, and Win2K continued that, where Apple has had little to truly offer from 1998 until the release of the G5. If you had been working in the market for the last 10 years, you would realize these facts.

4) OS X is a new thing. As I have said in this thread, it's only been a viable option for about a year, and the hardware to run it on has been less than stellar until now. The G5 and OS X may convince some DCC businesses to revisit the Mac OS, they may not.

5) Personal accusations are great, aren't they? I accuse you of trying to start a platform war, and say positive things about Windows 2000, negative things about Mac OS 9, and you twist these things into misrepresentations and lies. Someone here has a great signature, about misquoting others.


I'm not starting a war, just debunking myths started by Mac fanatics.
That is about as self-contradictory as you can get. Let's review your postings, shall we?

You can't expect a single Athlon chip to be faster that two xeons or even 2 crappy G5s. But it obviously will beat a single xeon and could probably beat a single G5 while rendering a Maya and Lightwave scene simultaneously.

I think that Iraqi minister of misinformation got hired by Apple and is now posting here under the name od Ed M.

What bothers us is such blatant lying by Mac users and their CEO.
If nothing else, you are inflammatory and try to start platform wars. But don't worry, I'm done with you. I've just discovered the "ignore list". Bye!

Jockomo
10-05-2003, 09:10 PM
I'll know the mac system is a viable alternative to windows when the mac zealots finally stop pathetically trying to convince everyone that macs are better.

It's all a matter of insecurity... I know, I used to be an Amiga user. I mean if you really honestly believe your working on the best system available... why are you spending so much time trying to convince the rest of us?

This capitalist society of ours has a simple basic rule of thumb however unfortunate it may be: He who has the most money wins. We all know who that is.

mlinde
10-06-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
I'll know the mac system is a viable alternative to windows when the mac zealots finally stop pathetically trying to convince everyone that macs are better.
I can honestly say I'm not in this group. I've had to convince die-hard mac guys to get PCs for their animation work, so I'm going to claim a milder case of zealotry. I will continue to rail against inflammatory statements like "pathetic mac zealots" You will never entertain the possibility that a Mac could be as good as your windows box. The language you use proves that.

The issue (for the Mac people) is that the rest of the world has been putting "going out of business" signs up at Apple for about 7 years now. Although the business reality at Apple is stable, the image pounded into the public is that of a company on the rocks. Mac zealots have succumbed to this false fear, and feel an illusory pressure to expand the Mac user base aggressively.

So, jockomo, even if you were open-minded about it, you will never see the Mac as a viable alternative. In fact, if you've been doing this for a while, it's not. Just like Windows isn't a viable alternative for me. If I go to my software shelf, and list the packages I use, then hunt down a good online reseller who will sell me upgrades and convert platforms, I'm spending close to $6,000 (USD) to convert my software to Windows. That doesn't include my font collection, which approaches an additional $3,000 (USD). For me to "switch" to Windows is about $9,000 without a new machine. I'm sure the same goes for you, but the other direction.

An independent user (or a business, for that matter) is invested in a generation of hardware and software. When the time comes to upgrade, both will take the past of least resistance and smallest cost.

Jockomo
10-06-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
I will continue to rail against inflammatory statements like "pathetic mac zealots" You will never entertain the possibility that a Mac could be as good as your windows box. The language you use proves that.


Actually, I would "entertain the possibility of a mac being better than my windows box.". In fact there is little doubt in my mind that any G5 will run much faster than my current 1.7ghz machine.
However, it is my opinion that how fast your machine is not as important as how many options that machine makes available to you.

I didn't say that mac zealots are pathetic, but that the effort they sometimes put forth to convince you to "switch" is pathetic.

mlinde
10-06-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Jockomo
I didn't say that mac zealots are pathetic, but that the effort they sometimes put forth to convince you to "switch" is pathetic.
Fair enough. I mis-represented your statement.

Can I ask you a question? What are the options you speak of, besides the obvious issue with video cards? I've been working on a Mac as my primary machine so long, I wouldn't recognize an omission in options if it hit me in the head.

Matt
10-06-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Tom Wood
Here's an older article by Neal Stephenson called IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE COMMAND LINE.

. . . in the beginning there was actually an OS written for the Xerox 8010 Star in SmallTalk that had windows, icons, menus, pointers, right click menus, email, ethernet, developed by Xerox PARC before Apple did anything and certainly before Microsoft did anything!

http://66.68.92.146:8080/cswebpage/parc_html/image004.jpg

problem was Xerox did nothing with it, Steve Jobs saw it, he wanted to do something like it! nicked most of the techs that wrote it and then created the Mac as we know it!!!

Xerox could have been bigger than IBM and Microsoft!!!

why did Xerox develop an OS before anyone else? because they were into paper! back then there was a lot of talk of the 'paperless office' brought about by the introduction of computers to the office, and they wanted a piece of the action, so they created the Xerox 8010 Star, not bad for a copier company!

Jockomo
10-06-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
What are the options you speak of, besides the obvious issue with video cards? I've been working on a Mac as my primary machine so long, I wouldn't recognize an omission in options if it hit me in the head.

Well the one that comes to mind immediately concerns a project I am currently working on. I am trying to animate fuel flowing through a fire retardant helideck and have found it totally impossible to do the shot I need with Lightwave alone (my collision object has a few hundred thousand polys in it's simplest form). I am able to complete the shot using RealFlow (http://www.nextlimit.com) which is only available for PC (the data converter is available for Mac, but not the program itself). In the situation I am in now, if I were on a mac I would probably have to go out and buy a PC just to run the simulation. AFAIK there are no water sims for Mac that could do this job.

A less important example would be my favorite MMORPG game - www.darkageofcamelot.com

mlinde
10-06-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Matt
. . . in the beginning there was actually an OS written for the Xerox 8010 Star in SmallTalk that had windows, icons, menus, pointers, right click menus, email, ethernet...
I finished the article. Basically it sounds like the author has two OSs he really likes -- Linux and BeOS. He's not particularly a fan of a straight GUI OS, he likes getting dirty with a command line.

His primary reasons are an open discussion of bugs (and repair of them), the useability of a terminal (tty/terminal) to perform command line functions, and the raw access to the CPU power that makes these OS's faster and more responsive than Mac or Windows.

Unfortunately, the article is at least 4 years old, predating Win2K & XP, and MacOS 10. However, the points he makes about the pros and cons of all the systems are valid even today. My two favorites thoughts are:
1) That without Lius Torvalds, Richard Stallman and Bill Gates, there would be no Linux.
and
2) The second is a reference to Apple "They have had GOING OUT OF BUSINESS! signs taped up in their windows for so long that they have gotten all yellow and curly."