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View Full Version : BLENDER 3.0 RIG - Lattice and Muscles and LW Solutions



silviotoledo
09-11-2010, 03:59 AM
Blender in going impressive. See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9pwBEKvTBg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzJECBo4TUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbRtG4B9hF4

http://www.youtube.com/user/jpbouza
www.jpbouza.com.ar


And now discussion:

Lattice in lightwave may be simulated with 2 free plugins:
FIS Deform - wich is better than Metalink
LayoutMETool - to edit points in layout. A better way than cloth fx edit, that will work better with bones.


Muscles
maybe FIS Deform can also help us someway, once it works as influence object

silviotoledo
09-11-2010, 06:08 PM
it seems noboby is interested in CA in LW anymore :(

speismonqui
09-11-2010, 06:25 PM
you're kidding right? cant wait to see RebelHill's reply :D

Every single LW artist is hoping (and praying) for amazing CA tools in Core. Even non CA animators.

It amazes me that a lot of people thinks Blender is kind of a joke. :cursin:

DragonFist
09-11-2010, 06:36 PM
I certainly am. I would love to see some of the underlying mechanics of this implemented in Core, such as the "shrink wrap modifier" he mentions in the video. there are some very talented riggers in the community. Just give them the tools to easily implement rigs and muscle systems like this.

RebelHill
09-12-2010, 04:20 AM
No, plenty of folks are interested in CA in LW...

However I suspect that many folks (and I confess I speak to my own thinking here) are SICK TO DEATH of you banging this SAME OLD DRUM!!!!

Muscle simulation IS NOT some holy grail that's gonna make character animation perfect and easy, and wonderful.

And as for... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9pwBEKvTBg

Did you not happen to notice the fact that the entire torso is wobbling, ribcage and all, what a joke... really. If that's what you think realistic character deformation looks like, then you can have it buddy, I'll pass.

stevecullum
09-12-2010, 04:52 AM
Muscle simulation IS NOT some holy grail that's gonna make character animation perfect and easy, and wonderful.

I think some folks believe muscle sim will prevent you having to worry about proper weighting and deformations. While I'm sure it can assist with that, you still have to know the basics before applying this stuff.

Tech can't replace talent...

RebelHill
09-12-2010, 04:58 AM
Tech can't replace talent...

If this industry has one unalterable truth... this is it!

*Pete*
09-12-2010, 05:30 AM
]

Did you not happen to notice the fact that the entire torso is wobbling, ribcage and all, what a joke... really. If that's what you think realistic character deformation looks like, then you can have it buddy, I'll pass.

agreed...its a joke.


when i think of muscle simulation, i dont think about wobling torsos, but more of different muscles getting activated by different poses.

to see what im talking about, just look at your shoulder in the mirror and rotate your wrist and arms...youll see different muscles activised depending of the poses you do.

simple thing as tying your shoelaces will do the same trick for your shoulders...the same is true for all of the muscles in the human body, but few places are so visible as the shoulders...and no, they do NOT wobble.

Cageman
09-12-2010, 06:29 AM
Muscle simulation IS NOT some holy grail that's gonna make character animation perfect and easy, and wonderful..

Exactly. Digital Domain talked at the AD-booth about a hero creature (I think it was a dragon) they did and they found that Muscle Sims were to tiresome and unpredictable to use, so they ended up using good old tricks with blendshapes etc and linked that to controllers for animators. It ended up being a much better process and they could design how the muscle would behave rather than relying on some arbitrary simulation that would end up hard to solve if going wrong.

wesleycorgi
09-12-2010, 08:24 AM
Being a newbie to rigging and CA, I am impressed. But as a newbie, I am easily impressed on this subject matter :).

Regarding wobbling torsos, looking at some of this guy's other vids it looks pretty in control (the one where the model is running and fully rendered).

Dreamcube017
09-12-2010, 08:25 AM
Hm I don't see why I didn't notice that before.

To be honnest, I'm more of an animator, shader creator, and lighting person than a character designer and rigger, so I'm afraid some of this is a little beyond me, but I see what you're talking about. I also agree that a good rig with correctly painted weights (if any) and nice shape keying is good enough. You just need to know how the character is suppose to move.

silviotoledo
09-12-2010, 11:05 AM
"SICK TO DEATH of you banging this SAME OLD DRUM!!!!"

Not only you. I confess I am too :). Almost a dead zoobie. Need a rest :).

I hope Newtek have seen all and minimal INFLUENCE OBJECTS that works on lightwave to fake some corrective effects would be implemented. It's not a muscle system in blender, it's an easy way to control morphs and use one geometry to influence other. I just see all the other lower packs have a solution like this and lightwave would be dead somewhere in time if don't. Of course CORE will have it in... maybe 2 years...

So all we need to do is to wait and going sick :).

About the cage deform, it seems FI's Deform would be a solution
Mr. FI also have a plugin called MiniMo that edits points in layout and other point deform I must look at.

"It amazes me that a lot of people thinks Blender is kind of a joke"

Blender is an amazing tool, advanced in tech, with an artistical feeling for CA. Have you seen Blender Anim Sculpt? So lovelly that Messiah copied it. It just needs an interface. Anyway ZBRUSH also needs one and nobody complain once it's paid :).

speismonqui
09-12-2010, 02:34 PM
Blender is an amazing tool, advanced in tech, with an artistical feeling for CA. Have you seen Blender Anim Sculpt? So lovelly that Messiah copied it. It just needs an interface. Anyway ZBRUSH also needs one and nobody complain once it's paid :).

:agree: Thanks to Matt, LW Core will beat the $%& out of ZB and Blender in terms of UI design (leaving Maya and Max out of topic, actually Softimage looks nice).

Anyway, I try to give credit to Blender whenever I can. It's a good friend of LW u know?

Cageman
09-12-2010, 02:41 PM
"It amazes me that a lot of people thinks Blender is kind of a joke"

Blender is an amazing tool, advanced in tech, with an artistical feeling for CA. Have you seen Blender Anim Sculpt? So lovelly that Messiah copied it. It just needs an interface. Anyway ZBRUSH also needs one and nobody complain once it's paid :).

I don't think anyone here says that Blender is a joke. What we think is a joke was one of the examples where the whole torso was wobbly and it did not at all look like something usefull. If wobbling torsos is something you want to achive you can easily use SoftFX in LW.

ZE_COLMEIA
09-12-2010, 02:47 PM
I think its not apropriated to judge blender's CA and Defformer features because of a not well thinked rig (I mean the character torso in that presentation). Lets be mature.

Mr Rid
09-12-2010, 06:45 PM
...
And as for... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9pwBEKvTBg

Did you not happen to notice the fact that the entire torso is wobbling, ribcage and all, what a joke... really. If that's what you think realistic character deformation looks like, then you can have it buddy, I'll pass.

Obviously, these rough renders are not intended to be completely realistic. But these examples clearly demonstrate the possibilities of some interesting types of advanced control.

silviotoledo
09-15-2010, 10:32 AM
Liam did this in 2004 on Max

Actually we can't do the same in lightwave 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyhf3JmODHE

This kind of face rig is impossible to do without muscles ( or influence objects ) and of course we can't do that with multiple blend shapes too.


Liam uses Hercules, and old plugin from Max

There's several muscle plugins available for max, other open sources for Maya. No one for lightwave yet!

We need minimal better deformers to manipulate geometry that way.

stevecullum
09-15-2010, 12:02 PM
This kind of face rig is impossible to do without muscles ( or influence objects ) and of course we can't do that with multiple blend shapes too.

What would be the reason you couldn't do something like that with sculpted blend shapes? (Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm not a CA rigger.)

silviotoledo
09-15-2010, 12:39 PM
you can, if you do frame by frame :). I mean you can't if you wanna use less morphs :).

The objects behind have their own behavior that makes the skin to slide over and this can't be simulated with morphs without inbetween morphs.

An alternative would be to try to use muscle bones and endomorphs. Bone rotations would change the floating point and the linearity of the morph, what would add an extra realism, but it would be very difficult to get that kind of realism and will give a lot of extra job to fake it.

stevecullum
09-15-2010, 01:03 PM
An alternative would be to try to use muscle bones and endomorphs. Bone rotations would change the floating point and the linearity of the morph, what would add an extra realism, but it would be very difficult to get that kind of realism and will give a lot of extra job to fake it.

Yeah this is what went through my head. I think it fair to conclude then, that its not impossible to do these things in Lightwave, just it requires lots of extra work and some ingenuity.

silviotoledo
09-15-2010, 01:06 PM
But it would be like to reconstruct PIRAMIDS without technology :)
It have been done in the past, but will hurt a lot.

ZE_COLMEIA
09-15-2010, 01:10 PM
But in a real world situation, it would be unpraticable. We (me and silvio) tried together at his studio some studies with effectors but its limitations makes the work impossible. Maybe if there was a way to make LW analyse vertex by vertex from one geometry to deform another as an effector but if you use many effectors at once it doesnt work propper.

erikals
09-15-2010, 04:50 PM
like i said earlier, i'd start with the UV morph method...
(combining it with polyfit can be an idea)

(sorry, no time, but if anyone feels like giving the muscle method a go...)
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1048139#post1048139

erikals
09-15-2010, 05:04 PM
as for the BlenRig 3.0

i haven't studied it that closely, but it definitely looks to have potential.
the wobbling torso looks weird, but after all i'm sure that function can be deactivated.

ZE_COLMEIA
09-15-2010, 08:50 PM
I tried to use an object proximity gradient to generate /control a displacement but it wasnt realtime feedback :/ so i quited.

erikals
09-16-2010, 12:41 AM
it might be realtime in LW10, afaik it's way faster.
(though to have it realtime is not important imo)

ZE_COLMEIA
09-16-2010, 01:21 AM
hmm.. sounds good!