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SonicN2O
09-07-2010, 03:31 PM
I just found out that shock therapy is legal in the U.S.! those clowns in Washington better get there act together!

Shnoze Shmon
09-07-2010, 04:01 PM
ohhh This BEGS the question of HOW he found out.

zap...zap...zap...zappity-zap-zap


:D

SonicN2O
09-07-2010, 04:03 PM
:twak:<you
you have no sense of decency, do you?

evenflcw
09-07-2010, 05:06 PM
Guns don't kill, people do! Analogous, it's not the method that's (potentially) bad, it's (some) people that prescribe/perform it.

It might sound gruesome, but apparently it could and can work well. So why exactly should they ban something that can help people? There are more modern versions that involve brain surgery and planting electrodes right were you need them though. But I suppose they don't know where exactly for all ailments yet.

Generally banning is a very inflexible, unfair and excessive way of getting rid of (potentially) bad practices since those practices may be the only option sometimes. If shock therapy, administered properly, has the possibility to help someone, do you think it is fair to those people to ban the method completely, just because some other people misused it?

cc3d
09-07-2010, 05:07 PM
zap 'em good!

Is it any worse than putting someone on 9 different anti-depressants!

SonicN2O
09-07-2010, 05:12 PM
What shock therapy is to autistics, is what drugs are to someone with ADD/ADHD. A mom get's scared that her baby has a horrible disease, a doctor says that there is a cure, and it (seems to) work. but really, the kid is turned into a lethargic zombie, because they're afraid of being tortured with shock therapy. It seems to work, but really it doesn't.

SonicN2O
09-07-2010, 05:14 PM
it's not therapy, it's torture! as to ADD/ADHD drugs, It artiificially makes them lethargic, and I've known people who take those drugs, and they say they feel like zombies.

DragonFist
09-07-2010, 05:17 PM
zap 'em good!

Is it any worse than putting someone on 9 different anti-depressants!

Neither one is good. Nor even safe.

cresshead
09-07-2010, 05:18 PM
shocking news....

Amurrell
09-07-2010, 06:30 PM
ECT or electroconvulsive therapy is used predominantly in depressed patients in which a normal regimen of medication and psycho therapy works with limited effectiveness. There was a steering away from this type of thing for a long time and it almost went into disuse until further studies showed that it was effective in some cases and some disorders that did not respond to medication. The exact reason for this is still largely unknown. We have patients that come on a regular basis as outpatients to go through ECT and many by their own volition because they are near the point of being suicidal, and on meds which are not working. Many have said to me personally that if it weren't for ECT, they may have been gone a long time ago.

The thing we worry about most is if the patient ate within 8 hrs as this can cause a risk of vomiting and subsequent aspiration during the procedure.

On a personal note, my mother volunteered for ECT when her other options were rapidly running out. In the end, her disease won, but she never felt the treatment was cruel in any way and it offered her some hope.

prometheus
09-08-2010, 01:51 AM
electric chair still going strong?

Im more shocked that the US still has death sentences, the ultimate failure of a society to correct criminals and to raise decent citizens from the day they are born, if the criminals has forfit their rights to live openly in society, give them at least an option to either choose themself to get to be put to sleep, or stay the rest of their life in hard labour.

electric shocks are allowed here in sweden too, there was a documentary on that recently,wich focused on how long term shocks can give persistent damages to the memory.

Michael

SBowie
09-08-2010, 06:34 AM
Is it just me, or does this seem ever so slightly "Off-topic and controversial" (and very likely to lead to no end of tangential arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, etc., with no real effect on on anyone's core views)?

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=500391&postcount=1

JeffrySG
09-08-2010, 07:17 AM
ECT is not what it was many years ago. Unless you're in the Psychiatric field or an MD or have had a member of your family benefit from it you may not be aware of its benefits. Mental illness can be devastating. ECT can and does save lives.

This might be enlightening: http://www.ted.com/talks/sherwin_nuland_on_electroshock_therapy.html

meshpig
09-08-2010, 07:26 AM
ECT or electroconvulsive therapy is used predominantly in depressed patients in which a normal regimen of medication and psycho therapy works with limited effectiveness. There was a steering away from this type of thing for a long time and it almost went into disuse until further studies showed that it was effective in some cases and some disorders that did not respond to medication. The exact reason for this is still largely unknown. We have patients that come on a regular basis as outpatients to go through ECT and many by their own volition because they are near the point of being suicidal, and on meds which are not working. Many have said to me personally that if it weren't for ECT, they may have been gone a long time ago.

The thing we worry about most is if the patient ate within 8 hrs as this can cause a risk of vomiting and subsequent aspiration during the procedure.

On a personal note, my mother volunteered for ECT when her other options were rapidly running out. In the end, her disease won, but she never felt the treatment was cruel in any way and it offered her some hope.

Yes it's the same story here, although how it came back from near disuse is a mystery because in the late 80's it was more like the 1950's and "one flew over the cuckoos nest" where any hack psychiatrist could assign people to whatever treatment deemed necessary to keep law and order.

It's curious how Depression is on the increase because it's an illness from another age... Karl Marx observed that the "Primitive" socius made Hysteria it's form of madness/confusion/mental illness ( casting out devils etc) and the "Imperial" or medieval societies Depression ( I'm worthless punish me).

Arguably the madness of Capitalist social production is schizophrenia... (I'm not who you say I am or want me to be because we no longer say "I").

oliversimonnet
09-08-2010, 07:29 AM
it's not therapy, it's torture! as to ADD/ADHD drugs, It artiificially makes them lethargic, and I've known people who take those drugs, and they say they feel like zombies.


What shock therapy is to autistics, is what drugs are to someone with ADD/ADHD. A mom get's scared that her baby has a horrible disease, a doctor says that there is a cure, and it (seems to) work. but really, the kid is turned into a lethargic zombie, because they're afraid of being tortured with shock therapy. It seems to work, but really it doesn't.

i have ADHD, and i did not feel like a zombie when i useto take drugs for it, i felt alot better and was able to doalot more :)

meshpig
09-08-2010, 07:55 AM
i have ADHD, and i did not feel like a zombie when i useto take drugs for it, i felt alot better and was able to doalot more :)

Of course you wouldn't have because ADD and Hyperactivity are countered by stimulants: methylphenidate. No zombies there, the chemistry came out of drugs designed for WW2 Messerschmitt pilots.

Shnoze Shmon
09-08-2010, 08:14 AM
I've had electro-shock therapy to neutralize venom in my body. Works like a charm! Mild electric shock helps heal muscles.

And for those who went political...

Electric chair has never failed to cure a criminal of his behavior. Alas the anti-religious nuts have caused a great cure to diminish in use. Thankfully in Texas we still euthanize many criminals with drugs.


We also have a quaint little saying; "Put that in your pipe and smoke it."

meshpig
09-08-2010, 08:19 AM
Is it just me, or does this seem ever so slightly "Off-topic and controversial" (and very likely to lead to no end of tangential arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, etc., with no real effect on on anyone's core views)?

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=500391&postcount=1

No, I'd say mental health is pretty much on topic...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112057

SBowie
09-08-2010, 08:24 AM
No, I'd say mental health is pretty much on topic...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112057Arguably almost any topic can be, if approached regarding artistic considerations or technical challenges. I've written on this before, and am generally in favour of tolerance... to a point. However, that is not the case in this thread, which has already shown some inclinations toward veering into even more overtly OT territory. It's on very thin ice ...

meshpig
09-08-2010, 08:48 AM
Arguably almost any topic can be, if approached regarding artistic considerations or technical challenges. I've written on this before, and am generally in favour of tolerance... to a point. However, that is not the case in this thread, which has already shown some inclinations toward veering into even more overtly OT territory. It's on very thin ice ...

Quite possibly. Seems pretty reasonable in any case. I mean Engineers are trained not to think beyond the task/topic and yet here we have a conjunction of engineers and artists? I quite like it but it's unlikely.

SBowie
09-08-2010, 08:50 AM
Quite possibly.Oh, it is - trust me. :)

KorbenD
09-08-2010, 08:58 AM
it's not therapy, it's torture! as to ADD/ADHD drugs, It artiificially makes them lethargic, and I've known people who take those drugs, and they say they feel like zombies.

ECT is generally done under short term general anesthesia, so calling it torture is a bit silly.

It's also relatively rarely used these days, more of a 'last resort' when everything else has failed, and even then only on a few narrowly defined conditions.

meshpig
09-08-2010, 09:06 AM
Oh, it is - trust me. :)

Must be getting a bit chilly in your neck of the woods by now...? Le printemps est arrivé like all the signs of but it's still 18 degrees by day. Another week or so... :)

SBowie
09-08-2010, 09:15 AM
Must be getting a bit chilly in your neck of the woods by now...? Sadly, it has been a little 'autumnal' this last week, down to 12°C last week, but it warmed up to 30° again yesterday, so there is still hope for some nice weather.

meshpig
09-08-2010, 09:35 AM
Sadly, it has been a little 'autumnal' this last week, down to 12°C last week, but it warmed up to 30° again yesterday, so there is still hope for some nice weather.

I kinda like the odd seasons, summer here is so spoken for. Represents the change from rugby league to cricket... though we do have a female prime minister still.

DragonFist
09-08-2010, 11:09 AM
ECT is not what it was many years ago. Unless you're in the Psychiatric field or an MD or have had a member of your family benefit from it you may not be aware of its benefits. Mental illness can be devastating. ECT can and does save lives.

This might be enlightening: http://www.ted.com/talks/sherwin_nuland_on_electroshock_therapy.html

Or had a member of your family's life ruined by it.

ECT is exactly what it was many years ago. A large amount of electricity passed through the brain with the intention and actual effect of destroying brain tissue. It hasn't changed in any way, other than the use of anesthesia has entered in.

If you call more quiet and docile "better" then I suppose it has a benefit. But the benefit isn't for the person receiving it.

JeffrySG
09-08-2010, 12:53 PM
Or had a member of your family's life ruined by it.

ECT is exactly what it was many years ago. A large amount of electricity passed through the brain with the intention and actual effect of destroying brain tissue. It hasn't changed in any way, other than the use of anesthesia has entered in.

If you call more quiet and docile "better" then I suppose it has a benefit. But the benefit isn't for the person receiving it.

I'm really sorry if you know someone who has been hurt from ECT, but it does help many people where nothing else helps. And you might be mistaken on some of the facts. ECT is not designed to destroy brain tissue nowadays and the way it is used currently it does not use a large amount of electricity. The currents cause brief controlled seizures that can dramatically help with some types of mental illness where other solutions cannot. While there are still some side effects it is different from the way it used to be many years ago. Just like many medical practices that were extreme years ago now are changed and save lives.

JeffrySG
09-08-2010, 01:15 PM
ECT, like everything else, plays the percentages. Perhaps on most people it works well enough, but a few do not get the advantages at all. Look at drug trials - "this worked in 65% of patients; 30 percent had no reaction and 5% had a negative reaction." Being in the 5% (in this hypothetical case) does not make you optimistic about the therapy - but if you were in the 65% group, you would think quite the opposite. Perhaps ECT is similar?

Agreed. I'm sure for the people that it's help it's a godsend and to those it's hurt the very opposite. Hopefully one day will have a more perfect way to help all mental illnesses. And I do not mean any disrespect for anyone that has negative experiences with it. I know there are negative and positive to this topic as well.

SonicN2O
09-08-2010, 03:52 PM
Or had a member of your family's life ruined by it.

ECT is exactly what it was many years ago. A large amount of electricity passed through the brain with the intention and actual effect of destroying brain tissue. It hasn't changed in any way, other than the use of anesthesia has entered in.

If you call more quiet and docile "better" then I suppose it has a benefit. But the benefit isn't for the person receiving it.

I totally agree with you. ECT was developed when people first discovered electricity. It was thought as some sort of "magical power" that could cure any disease, or even bring the dead back to life (i.e. 'Frankenstien'.) You should really read "one flew over the cukoos' nest" because it proves a point.

oliversimonnet
09-08-2010, 04:23 PM
of topik: nothing to dowith anything but i had to ask
isnt Megalodon a big shark haha :)

stevecullum
09-08-2010, 04:27 PM
No, I'd say mental health is pretty much on topic...

Agreed!

By day I work for a healthcare trust, where ECT is performed routinely and benefits many clients where conventional treatments have failed. By night I work as a Lightwave artist, creating vfx for film and tv, so it's all on topic for me ;)

SBowie
09-08-2010, 04:45 PM
By day I work for a healthcare trust, where ECT is performed routinely and benefits many clients where conventional treatments have failed. By night I work as a Lightwave artist, creating vfx for film and tv, so it's all on topic for me ;)Well, it would be if the discussion was about LightWave techniques ... as opposed tothe pros and cons of medical procedures - much less religion, euthanasia, the death penalty, etc.

oliversimonnet
09-08-2010, 04:48 PM
THE biggest. :thumbsup:

haha love it

SBowie
09-08-2010, 05:00 PM
Could be interesting. :)Keep that up and you might actually drag this thread onto a relevant topic. I doubt it will stay there long, though. :devil:

JeffrySG
09-08-2010, 05:08 PM
I totally agree with you. ECT was developed when people first discovered electricity. It was thought as some sort of "magical power" that could cure any disease, or even bring the dead back to life (i.e. 'Frankenstien'.) You should really read "one flew over the cukoos' nest" because it proves a point.

lol, if you're using 'nest' as your judge of ECT in today's usage you are sadly misinformed.


Yes, it proves that science marches on and we learn and improve procedures. To base an opinion on a certain method used more than 30 years ago is too simplistic and does not illustrate ANY advancements (as members of this thread have already attested to) in the overall procedures. Hacking off a limb in the civil war gave you a better chance of dying than not - what does it say of removing the same limb using todays' methods?

It's called... scientific progress.

:agree:

Hopper
09-08-2010, 05:26 PM
ok .. someone told me this was where all the crazy people were at ... <wringing hands> what we doin?.. what's the plan? we all here? ready? :screwy:

oliversimonnet
09-08-2010, 05:28 PM
ok .. someone told me this was where all the crazy people were at ... <wringing hands> what we doin?.. what's the plan? we all here? ready? :screwy:
haha ye this is abit of a strange thread

DragonFist
09-08-2010, 07:30 PM
I'm really sorry if you know someone who has been hurt from ECT, but it does help many people where nothing else helps. And you might be mistaken on some of the facts. ECT is not designed to destroy brain tissue nowadays and the way it is used currently it does not use a large amount of electricity. The currents cause brief controlled seizures that can dramatically help with some types of mental illness where other solutions cannot. While there are still some side effects it is different from the way it used to be many years ago. Just like many medical practices that were extreme years ago now are changed and save lives.

Enough electricity is put through the brain to cause said seizures which often, yes even "today", causes memory loss, a "side-effect" which the "patient" or one legally responsible signs a waiver. The amount of electricity and the duration of application may have been lowered in addition so that "in many cases" it does not result in the breakage of bones and memory loss may not always be immediately observable.

But make no mistake, electricity is being channel through the brain. Brain damage does occur. If you want want to take the chance with your own life or the ones you love that ECT is safe just because doctors say so, I suggest you look up the thousands of cases in which it didn't work out that way before signing away your rights. Just one such incident, easily found via google:


In June 2005 in Columbia, South Carolina, a jury awarded $635,000 in a malpractice suit against a psychiatrist who referred a patient for electroshock treatment. The hospital had previously settled for a small amount and the doctor who administered the treatment was not found negligent. The plaintiff, Peggy Salters, is a former nurse who lost her memory for many years of her life, including her professional training and the raising of her children. Her cognitive abilities remain impaired for new learning as well. She was found permanently disabled by the shock treatment. Mrs. Salters viewed the jury award as a victory for all victims of electroshock.

Frankly, don't listen to me. Don't "listen" to anyone. Do your own research. Take your own counsel. I for one have seen the damage done. Unfortunately, those harmed by this "procedure" are often not in a state to see the damage that was done to them. And a LOT of money is made. But again, if you or someone you love has this procedure recommended, I strongly suggest that you find out what the real risks are. And don't sign any documents negating you rights. If you do go through with it, you want to be able to sue if anything "goes wrong".

shrox
09-08-2010, 08:01 PM
I find it much more "shocking" that organs are cut out of dead bodies and inserted into living ones. We can grow new organs now...

http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_growing_organs_engineering_tissue.ht ml

DragonFist
09-08-2010, 08:12 PM
Again, ECT cures nothing. At best, the patient becomes more docile and this is seen as an improvement. But there is no scientific proof that it cures or handles anything. And even those who promote it admit it.

Don't let your love ones be harmed so someone can make some money (Currently $5 billion dollars a year.)


“We do not know the causes [of any mental illness]. We don’t have the methods of ‘curing’ these illnesses yet.” —Dr. Rex Cowdry, psychiatrist and director of National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), 1995

“The time when psychiatrists considered that they could cure the mentally ill is gone. In the future the mentally ill have to learn to live with their illness.” —Norman Satorius, president of the World Psychiatric Association in 1994

Dr. John Friedberg, a neurologist who researched the effects of ECT for over thirty years, stated, “It is very hard to put into words just what shock treatment does to people generally.…it destroys people’s ambition, and…their vitality. It makes people rather passive and apathetic.…Besides the amnesia, the apathy and the lack of energy is, in my view, the reason that…[psychiatrists] still get away with giving it.”

Today, the psychiatric industry in the United States alone takes an estimated $5 billion (€4 billion) from ECT per year. In the US, 65-year-olds receive three hundred and sixty percent more electroshock than 64-year-olds, since Medicare (government health insurance) takes effect at age 65, evidence that the use of ECT is guided, not by medical compassion, but by profit and greed.

SBowie
09-08-2010, 08:23 PM
Once again, hinting doesn't seem to accomplish much. It seldom does, actually, but there's a tiny little optimist in me that wants to dignify people by giving them the opportunity to comply on their own. (He's not often right, but I'm hoping he'll come to that realization on his own. I may just be stuck in a loop.)

I fear some of you may have mistaken the NewTek forum for this one:

http://www.mentalhealthforum.net/