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silviotoledo
08-26-2010, 06:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFtCKdU5SnU&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk54jVpgFek&feature=related


V ray does the same, and V ray is better, he hehe
( community will kill me now )


I'm just kidding, VPR is really cool! But I really would like to see V ray on Lightwave or, maybe, K Ray as native.

That's why I'd like to see LW focused in Character Animation with better deformers and not rendering.

Captain Obvious
08-26-2010, 06:31 AM
Uhm, did you miss that LW10 is getting interactiv viewport rendering as well? It looks pretty fast. Kray is as close to native as it's ever going to get, and is a hell of a lot better integrated into LW than native renderers are in many other softwares.

Vray is nice and everything, but honestly, who cares?

silviotoledo
08-26-2010, 06:36 AM
:)

Elmar Moelzer
08-26-2010, 06:38 AM
AFAIK, Kray is better integrated into LW than Vray is into Max.
Only thing that Kray does not have is somethig like VrayRt, but LW has VPR instead and that should work just as well for Kray.
Kray is a really great plugin for LW and from all I know it should be considered equal to Vray.

silviotoledo
08-26-2010, 06:42 AM
Yeah, I agree K ray is so amazing as V ray, but v Ray is a little more updated.

I just thing VPR is not something impressive once other packages has duplicated this tech very well.

So, it's good to see LW rendering was updated, but we would like to see LW also updated in the weak areas lightwave has.

geo_n
08-26-2010, 06:49 AM
AFAIK, Kray is better integrated into LW than Vray is into Max.
Only thing that Kray does not have is somethig like VrayRt, but LW has VPR instead and that should work just as well for Kray.
Kray is a really great plugin for LW and from all I know it should be considered equal to Vray.

I have kray and love it but you`re mistaken. Vray is integrated better in max. Kray doesn`t support alpha and matt channels, light exlusions,etc. Just stating the facts notthing about render quality. Anyway for lightwave users there`s no vray so its not something to think about.

geo_n
08-26-2010, 06:54 AM
Regarding vpr and vrayrt. I just tried vray rt and no its not better. Vpr is faster on a modest machine. But its still early and chaosgroup is focused team on renderer(besides phoenix:thumbsup: ) only not like nt which is making entire program.

Netvudu
08-26-2010, 09:31 AM
I just thing VPR is not something impressive once other packages has duplicated this tech very well.

Seriously? Show me a package which does this and DOES work like in LW. Everything Iīve seen claims to be as fast or interactive and it is not. VrayRT is WAAAAY far from being as intuitive and easy to use (and to refresh) than FPrime or VPR for that matter.
All of them are big CPU-hoggers ruining the experience.

I think you are speaking from what you read over the net or watch on youtube as opposed to REALLY trying stuff around.

Netvudu
08-26-2010, 09:34 AM
I have kray and love it but you`re mistaken. Vray is integrated better in max. Kray doesn`t support alpha and matt channels, light exlusions,etc. Just stating the facts notthing about render quality. Anyway for lightwave users there`s no vray so its not something to think about.

Oh yeah? So Vray doesnīt need its OWN lights? (as opposed to Kray) and its OWN materials? (as opposed to using the standard Surface Editor the way Kray does)

silviotoledo
08-26-2010, 09:38 AM
Netvudu

Yeah, lightwave is still a little faster and easier to use, but V ray rendering is a little more "real" than lightwave one in my concept.

I've seen the videos on youtube there's a long time, but only today I did a real test with a friend that makes architectural models ( millions of polys ) in Max and uses V ray to render. V ray took from 1 to 5 seconds to render. It use to get hours in the past years.
We tried phisical correct materials and it works fine.

Well, I don't like to use Max, Maya and others, I preffer lightwave because it's easier for me. Anyway the realtime render power does not belong to lightwave users only.

I still preffer lightwave because of the process that comes before rendering.

geo_n
08-26-2010, 10:29 AM
Oh yeah? So Vray doesnīt need its OWN lights? (as opposed to Kray) and its OWN materials? (as opposed to using the standard Surface Editor the way Kray does)

Actually it doesnt. I dont know what version of vray you used but in 3dmax you can use standard lights and materials, volumetrics like fumefx,etc. Maybe you`re talking about cebas fr or brazil. Getting off topic anyway. Its vpr vs vrayrt which currently vpr is more impressive. But chaosgroup has a big team focused only on vray stuff

Elmar Moelzer
08-26-2010, 10:30 AM
Oh yeah? So Vray doesnīt need its OWN lights? (as opposed to Kray) and its OWN materials? (as opposed to using the standard Surface Editor the way Kray does)

Yeah, that is what I thought too. So how can Vray be better integrated into MAX than Kray is into LW?
I dont get it.

Elmar Moelzer
08-26-2010, 10:32 AM
And lets not forget that you pay a real nice junk of money extra for Vray, while VPR and LWs renderer cost you nothing extra and come with unlimited rendernodes. Heck I think that Vray costs more than the whole LW at the moment. So lets not be unfair.
I distinctly remember Vray needing extra materials, but I guess that has changed now.

Netvudu
08-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Actually it doesnt. I dont know what version of vray you used but in 3dmax you can use standard lights and materials, volumetrics like fumefx,etc. Maybe you`re talking about cebas fr or brazil. Getting off topic anyway. Its vpr vs vrayrt which currently vpr is more impressive. But chaosgroup has a big team focused only on vray stuff

Well i donīt know what version of vray YOU tried, but you know...

...I didnīt create THIS webpage. Chaos group people did.

http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150SP1/render_unsupported.htm

Unless all this changed from 1.5 sp1 to 1.5 sp4 , some stuff needs its own features for rendering with Vray (such as Vray Sky because standard 3dsMAX skylight doesnīt work, or Vray Sun) and some stock materials suchs as the stock Raytrace material are NOT supported, or just partially. All Vray users I know (and they are a big bunch) use Vray materials because quoting them "theyīre the only ones that look any good using Vray for rendering"

Maybe I do know what Iīm talking about and Iīm not talking about Cebasī Final Render or Brazil after all. (not to mention the shameful Mental Ray integration into MAX)

I donīt think Vray itīs a bad render engine. Itīs very nice, but itīs as bolted as every other external render engine, minus some more effort because of the long time being used by MAX users.
The buffer problem is long-time LW-based problem, not a Kray problem, and Kray integration into LW is as good as it gets.

Again, my opinion.

Go VPR!!! :bday:

GraphXs
08-26-2010, 06:17 PM
VRay is far from perfect in Max. I did some wonderful final test renders in LW for this new project I'm working on at home. Everyone was blown away from the quality and its was really fast and easy to get the look and feel I wanted in LW. So now at work in Max and V-Ray I need to create the same look and feel....Ba'h such a struggle and very time consuming. It is because V-Ray doesn't always work with Max standard materials as expected. It causes a lot of rendering issues.

For example: I'm using the V-Ray Sun/Sky light and with it I'm using HVS Exponential color method so it lights the scene correctly. But any item I want self-illuminated with a standard material, the white turns "gray". So fine, I'll use a V-Ray light material....blown out or not working with alpha images! Ok.. now I'm going to have to set up a scene state and render out the self-illuminaton items as a separate pass and switch to linear color space in the V-Ray render engine.

Using V-Ray materials is the best method to get things to look right, but I do have a issue that the don't have a "fake" spec. Its lot more work to have to create "reflective" circles just to give me a fake spec. Ba'h!

I can't wait for VPR to support everything that LW can do . It will be the best render engine because its integrated in the LW render pipeline. Problem with MRay and VRay is they have to work inside of Max, and it can create lots of unexpected results when mixing it with Max stuff. If I can figure out a quick/easy pipeline to get the Max animation/camera back to LW for rendering I would do it in a heart beat!

lardbros
08-27-2010, 06:08 AM
but only today I did a real test with a friend that makes architectural models ( millions of polys ) in Max and uses V ray to render. V ray took from 1 to 5 seconds to render.....



Just out of interest, were these renders 10x10 pixels? :)

Seriously though, what were the settings for this 1-5 second render? and was this on V-ray RT, or standard V-ray? Also, V-ray is good if you have a bottomless pocket, you have to pay for the V-ray RT on top of V-ray, and then upgrade BOTH when you want to upgrade. VPR is very impressive, and although not supporting everything in LW yet, it's SOOO quick on both of my machines in my signature!

We have v-ray at work, and we used for a bit, but decided that Mental Ray did just as good a job, was slightly better implemented and we couldn't take the time to convert all of our materials to V-ray as well as MR.

silviotoledo
08-27-2010, 09:18 AM
My friend works with architectural images. He uses V Ray and Mental Ray. V ray looks beautier but have been too slow compared to Mental Ray in the past years. Now he did a little tests in V Ray RT and got amazing results in seconds. That's why he asked me to see. He gets perfect hi-res images in less than 1 minute!

In viewport ( small rendering ) VR RT does a great job and is just a little slower than LW VPR compared to the videos I've seen form Newtek ( I did not upgraded to Lw 10 yet ).

The end rendering was done in a few seconds, I don't know about his settings, but he uses V ray Lights, Physical SKY and phisical shaders ( not sure if they are V Ray shaders ).

his site: http://www.3dreal.com.br/

I think MR and V Ray rendering are great and still a little better than LW one!
K Ray gets results so good as V ray.

geo_n
08-27-2010, 09:19 AM
Well i donīt know what version of vray YOU tried, but you know...

...I didnīt create THIS webpage. Chaos group people did.

http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150SP1/render_unsupported.htm

Unless all this changed from 1.5 sp1 to 1.5 sp4 , some stuff needs its own features for rendering with Vray (such as Vray Sky because standard 3dsMAX skylight doesnīt work, or Vray Sun) and some stock materials suchs as the stock Raytrace material are NOT supported, or just partially. All Vray users I know (and they are a big bunch) use Vray materials because quoting them "theyīre the only ones that look any good using Vray for rendering"

Maybe I do know what Iīm talking about and Iīm not talking about Cebasī Final Render or Brazil after all. (not to mention the shameful Mental Ray integration into MAX)

I donīt think Vray itīs a bad render engine. Itīs very nice, but itīs as bolted as every other external render engine, minus some more effort because of the long time being used by MAX users.
The buffer problem is long-time LW-based problem, not a Kray problem, and Kray integration into LW is as good as it gets.

Again, my opinion.

Go VPR!!! :bday:

You really want to drag this thread to vray vs kray?
i really dont want to list the limitation of kray because I think for one developer its good.
But I`ll just say that those limitations in vray on that page mostly have a vray implementation and similar functionality that is actually better.
raytracemap with blurry reflection in maxscanline..like blurry reflection in lw...its slow....vray version is better and more realistic with fast blurry reflection. But kray is faster with blurry reflection.
skylight? who uses that in max?:D The default lights and vray lights are all you need in most cases.
Renderelements..vray has a long list of available buffers. Very very long.
Theres nothing on that list that would break a compositing workflow afterwards.

Now with regards to kray. I`ll mention some workflow dealbreaker but kray developer is hard at work right now to fix things.
There is no equivalent implementation or functionality for matt and alpha settings via object or materials. Very very difficult to make renderpasses.
No way to manage object/light relationship, no exr support, limited buffers, etc.
If there is no implementation or similar functionality then how can it be better integrated?

my opinion.:D

Go VPR!!! :bday:

geo_n
08-27-2010, 09:27 AM
In viewport ( small rendering ) VR RT does a great job and is just a little slower than LW VPR compared to the videos I've seen form Newtek ( I did not upgraded to Lw 10 yet ).



In my tests vrayrt is a lot slower than vpr on a modest quadcore. And vpr is more interactive because you can actually move objects on screen. But its still early days and hopefully vpr can support volumetrics as well.

silviotoledo
08-27-2010, 09:30 AM
I think K Ray is really amazing and the quality is the the same level of V Ray!

Of course V Ray team is bigger, have more time in market, more users, more shaders, more money and more functionalities and now RT.
It works in all the other applications "except lightwave". People suggests there was a misunderstanding between Newtek and Chaos Group in the past. Will Newtek confirm this?
If it's fully integrated or not, I don't care. I've seem great jobs done with V ray and Max.

I just would like to see V Ray in Lightwave or K Ray advancing more and more.

silviotoledo
08-27-2010, 09:37 AM
Well, he uses an i7 processor and 8 giga ram.
VRay RT will be faster when he will turn on GPU functionalities from videoboard.

It seems VPR is faster and requires less hardware power, but, anyway the difference is only a few more seconds that is a low price to pay for a renderer like V Ray :).


VPR is really wellcome and is great! I just don't want to see Lightwave focused on rendering only, 'cause this is not the area in wich it's leader anymore.

Elmar Moelzer
08-27-2010, 10:16 AM
Does VRay render volumetrics? If so, does VRay RT?
VPR will render volumetrics, at least at some point and it will also work with 3rd party volumetrics. At least it should do that, if NT do the job right. I doubt that VRay RT will do that. IMHO, it cant do that, technically.

silviotoledo
08-27-2010, 10:34 AM
I've seen a V Ray "volumetric" shader that does things similar to Hypervoxels.
Maybe it's only a complex vector map or displacement, I'm not sure.

http://vray.info/news/article.asp?ID=267

Anyway I've not seen an amazing tool like Volumedic outside lightwave!

Actually it's not good try to use V ray with lightwave because of the FBX/Collada export.
V Ray and MR are independent softwares that need a big amount of learning and adjusts.
What is totally different form the easy way we have in K ray with easy presets!

I think that Lightwave have the best native rendering, but the others uses MR and V Ray as option, that Lightwave don't have.