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Paul_Boland
08-19-2010, 01:31 PM
Issue 133 of 3D World arrived in the post today. Pages 24, 25 and 26 have an article called Lightwave's New Roadmap in which it talks about Lightwave CORE. I read it upon seeing it and I have to say, it doesn't paint CORE in good light. Well, to be fair, it doesn't condemn it and does talk well of it, but a lot of the article is quite bleek.

Here are some extracts from it:

"By May of this year, CORE had been around for nearly a year and a half. While some cool features had been added, there was nothing truly groundbreaking and enough was broken that the software was till nowhere near being of releasable quality."

"At the end of May, Newtek president of 3D Jay Roth announcd a leave of absence. In stepped Chuck Baker, Lightwave's project manager, and Rob Powers, Newtek's new director of entertainment and media development - hired hot off his efforts leading the previsualisation team for Avatar."

"With three versions of Lightwave in development over five platforms, however, confusion amoung costomers over which version to choose and invest in is mounting, and a series of unclear communications from Newtek to users hadn't helped. Development team members are having to clarify over and over again what they said in a forum that's increastly fast-moving and noisy."

"Newtek's CEO Jim Plant offers a more definitive release schedule: "Q4 2010 for a final release of CORE v1, but you have to understand that that's Lightwave 10, CORE is part of that.""

"...it will offer only HardCORE members the benefit of constant updates. "The only time non-HardCORE users will get updates, barring major bug fixes where we need to correct something that's preventing Lightwave from working correctly, is when we release a new version that they can upgrade to," says Powers."

"How will Lightwave HC and CORE work together? What about creating polygon heavy assets in CORE and brining them into Lightwave for traditional texturing and rendering, for instance? "The issue of working with high-res in CORE and then taking it back to Modeler is equivalent to ZBrush to Modeler, and exact the same is true for any other package," says Powers. "You just have to think logically: how can you go around a problem, step over it, dig under it. We'll give you a ladder. We don't want CORE to be limited to only what Mdoeler and Layout can handle.""

"Lightwave 3D has always relied on a hardware dongle for program security - and also to lock third-party plug-ins to a specific licence. The plan for CORE is to do away with the dongle and rely on a software solution. This opens the way for completely electronic sales, but more importantly for renewed interest from schools and large facilities that don't want to have to deal with the issue of dongles going missing."

"Although Newtek seems bullish about its new deadline, it will still appear to be short on seasoned Lighrwave users - even more so with the renewed emphasis on what can be called 'classic' Lightwave, and the fact that a user interface designer hadn't been hired at the time of writing. Nevertheless, it's excting to see how committed Newtek is to the future of an intergrated next-generation Lightwave based on CORE architeture."

At the end of the article, there is a box-out of comments called, "CORE thoughts: comments from profressional Lightwave users". here are some of them:

"The biggest concern is that they are trying to make it more like Maya. That is a huge mistake. While it's a very deep and capable program, Maya takes forever to do anything. No matter how good Lightwave is or can be, the perception in Hollywood is that it is falling behind. Newtek must address this, or it will all be for naught."

"I think a really good Lightwave CORE might give me renewed confidence in Newtek, but it needs to be better then the competition."

"In my opinion, it will be years before CORE is a complete and reliable production tool. Too little, too late. Lightwave development has always been lagging way behind the pack for whatever reasons, and too many tools don't work properly. Newtek's agenda has always seemed confused: they have a disappointing history in inept support, and of not listening to the experienced users. I see little reason to think things are different."

stevecullum
08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
I think a lot of that is pretty fair, but the comments made about inept support I would challenge. I've always had first class support, NT have always been very approachable.

I don't see the article as bleek, just a little reserved. Its difficult to predict what the reaction to CORE will be once its properly released. I understand the concerns regarding workflow, but Rob Powers knows Lightwave really well and brings a renewed sense of faith to CORE's development.

If NT can carry on as they have done for the last 6 months, Lightwave will have a bright future :)

wesleycorgi
08-19-2010, 01:48 PM
Yes, I thought the same when I read this issue. Also, I am always upset that there is more coverage and how-to's of just about any other package. C'mon, more tutorials on Poser and Carrara? Really?!?!

raw-m
08-19-2010, 02:19 PM
Good news about the dongle, though! :)

UnCommonGrafx
08-19-2010, 02:50 PM
C'mon, more tutorials on Poser and Carrara? Really?!?!


I think our passions and inside knowledge of LW belie the facts: it's about currency; dollars, for today, euros or yuan tomorrow. Daz has a heller cottage industry around Poser! There should be no surprise that Daz is starting to put more money into their advert budgets, thus, being better seen in the tutorial section.
I used to feel such frustration. As of late, coming to forums such as this, I've found that I can find what I want, learn a bunch of what I didn't know and really have no need of the magazine for the purposes of LW interaction. Instead, I get it to see what the other guys can do and how I might be able to accomplish in LW. Dings when it's harder & kudos when it's not; when the other program is a serious impressor, then it all gets a look compared to where,how, and whether or not, Core will achieve the same.

LW's paradigm hasn't changed in a long time. A really long time. This is flat out brilliant because so many of the tutes of old work a TREAT faster now. Every old book is applicable to 9.6 and then some. Learning older tutes gets you some serious Master-level knowledge.

Core can look like Poser. I expect it to be able to, at least. Not because I want it (puke moment) but because someone might want it and be able to make use of it and teach us all something new. All, still, with our favorite tool. Or, the evolution thereof. Or... so I envision.

Paul_Boland
08-19-2010, 02:51 PM
Yes, I thought the same when I read this issue. Also, I am always upset that there is more coverage and how-to's of just about any other package. C'mon, more tutorials on Poser and Carrara? Really?!?!

I couldn't agree more on this point. And when a tutorial on Lightwave does appear, I find it's not on par with the other packages. The others get rigging, animation, stuff like that, Lightwave gets more basic stuff, though to those who requested them, I'm not putting them down, I'm sure they are delighted to see their question answered. But I'd like Lightwave to get a bit more beef!!

aurora
08-19-2010, 03:00 PM
I have not seen the article yet, and as normal won't till next month if this is the just released issue. BUT I would have to disagree about anything about the tech support. I have always had great service!

As for being to late for the changes. Its all relative. What was big and important a few years ago is all but obsolete. All app's have to go through periodic make/change overs. ALL APPS. Now is the time for LW. In the future you will see the other apps, as they have in the past, go through make overs as well. Evolution in software is the fastest evolutionary rate on Earth and do to the complexity of the app's not an easy thing to carry out.

Imagine redesigning a ribosomes every couple decades. A ribosome is so complex that a statistical challenge was made as to the ability for it to evolve from nothing on earth, or to be created on another planet, that planet blow up and a fragment of it, with intake ribosomes, landed on earth those seeding the first cells. The results, it was a 10^16th higher probability for the later. Redesigning a 3D app is not dissimilar to this complexity. (sorry this is one of my fav studies ever done and had to throw it in.)

hrgiger
08-19-2010, 05:44 PM
Hadn't you heard? Lightwave is a democrat. 3DWorld is Fox News.

Titus
08-19-2010, 06:25 PM
Hadn't you heard? Lightwave is a democrat. 3DWorld is Fox News.

He he. At least 3DWorld talks about LW in every release, and they have tutorials every month.

Tobian
08-19-2010, 06:37 PM
Where do they get these grumpy mean spirited 'professional lightwave users' from all the time, there's plenty of people who are excited and enthused about Core, in the 'professional' arena. I can pretty much guess who are few of those users are :p

As for the article, It seems quite fair, and we know when some of those quotes from Jim plant come from :D To be fair to 3D world, they just produce content for what sells the magazine, which is sadly mostly autodesk products, but then since they have pretty much cornered the market, it's of no surprise :) I certainly got a lot of good response when I did my article, so maybe it will encourage them to do more LW-centric articles in the future! :)

Nicolas Jordan
08-19-2010, 06:49 PM
Sounds like that article still carries some negative vibes that seem to be slowly dissipating since it was written.

I think there is way more to be excited about now than there was a year ago looking at some of the new talent Newtek has recruited should give Core a pretty good chance at shaping up to be a success in the long term.

Amurrell
08-19-2010, 06:54 PM
Hadn't you heard? Lightwave is a democrat. 3DWorld is Fox News.

So that's it... I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it's all so clear now...

Vincenzo
08-19-2010, 10:13 PM
Why dont they tell us a program that has something really groundbreaking?

hrgiger
08-19-2010, 10:39 PM
So that's it... I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it's all so clear now...

On a more serious note- I wouldn't disagree with several of the quotes that Paul posted, but I'd have to read the actual article to see how it was presented. But by large, Lightwave gets little notice in 3D World next to Max or Maya.

I would argue that VPR is a ground breaking feature of CORE. Yes, other software has interactive renderers now(and some third party options) but CORE is the first one that I've seen which acts more like a viewport shading method. You can actually manipulate and model objects in VPR while it works, the transform/rotate gizmos appear over top of the renderer.

Like I said, I'll have to read the article to determine if it's at all balanced. There are certainly a lot of good aspects of CORE that may have been either overlooked or just ignored.

CaptainMarlowe
08-20-2010, 12:52 AM
Sounds like that article still carries some negative vibes that seem to be slowly dissipating since it was written.

I think there is way more to be excited about now than there was a year ago looking at some of the new talent Newtek has recruited should give Core a pretty good chance at shaping up to be a success in the long term.

Dunno, I don't read 3D world. nd I'm no HC member. But I do feel really excited by the siggraph videos.

BTW, those wanting real good tuts on a magazine should have a look to HDRI3D. I can't count all the very good tips and techniques I learnt from this over the last two years.

Matt
08-20-2010, 02:22 AM
Bitter pill to swallow perhaps, but I think those are valid concerns.

Now let's see what we can do about it!

creacon
08-20-2010, 02:42 AM
We received that magazine 2 weeks ago, most of it is fair, but the statement about "too little too late", and saying that LW has always lagged behind the pack is rubbish.

Years ago we had Alias telling us that nurbs were the best there is and that SDS in Lightwave was just a child's toy, 2 years later they were back telling us the exact opposite, because Maya had them too.


Same goes for radiosity, HDR, floating point pipeline, ...

Did you notice the article is written by Ben Vost? Isn't he working for Newtek Europe?

creacon

DogBoy
08-20-2010, 03:34 AM
Well, seeing as our own BeeVee is the author, a man who has had a lot involvement in the recent development events, I think it was pretty fair.

Yes, the article was critical, but it was also pretty positive on the whole. I'd rather honesty than another fluff piece.

wrench
08-20-2010, 04:09 AM
Hey all,

Just to let you know, the news piece was written a month ago. Things would have been different given the developments shown at Siggraph, but such is life. I tried to make it as balanced as possible and in no way does it stop me from being a LightWave user (and one of the first hazarders ;)).

As for the comment about inept support, it's never been my experience either (and heck I *supplied* the support for Europe, the Middle East and Africa!).

Personally, I feel very confident that the NewTek team will pull the rabbit out of the hat yet again and give us a brilliant new LightWave.

B

creacon
08-20-2010, 04:41 AM
As I said, most of it was fair if not all, but the user comments were a bit off, everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, but comments of "an anonymous professional lightwave artist" sound a bit cheap in any article.

creacon


Hey all,

Just to let you know, the news piece was written a month ago. Things would have been different given the developments shown at Siggraph, but such is life. I tried to make it as balanced as possible and in no way does it stop me from being a LightWave user (and one of the first hazarders ;)).

As for the comment about inept support, it's never been my experience either (and heck I *supplied* the support for Europe, the Middle East and Africa!).

Personally, I feel very confident that the NewTek team will pull the rabbit out of the hat yet again and give us a brilliant new LightWave.

B

lardbros
08-20-2010, 05:25 AM
So, BeeVee is now Wrench? Hey Wrench!

This is confusing me now...
I found the article slightly negative, especially regarding the latest developments... but to be fair... newtek haven't done anything great publicly for years until this years siggraph (which more than makes up for it)

As for tech support, I've always found them to be VERY pleasant on the phone and extremely helpful by email too. Of course some others have had problems but not me!

So, Ben... is there going to be a special siggraph article on LW10? I thought Newtek showed a great deal of stuff, and would be good to have a positive spin on the wholoe LW thing!

safetyman
08-20-2010, 06:52 AM
I must weigh in on the support -- I only called once to get my laptop back up after having it re-imaged, and the NewTek folks were very very helpful and extremely quick.

As for the other stuff -- no one, and I mean no one, can say for sure how this will all play out until we get to the point where LW CORE is a standalone app (i.e. not relying on legacy versions to make it a complete package). Heck, look how long it took Modo to get where it is now, and it is still an infant when it comes to animation.

We all know that 9.6 is a fully working solution, so I look at it as you're getting something right now that works well, and they are throwing in the next generation for us to use however we need to until it can get up to speed and stand on its own.

Sekhar
08-20-2010, 09:40 AM
At least we can strike out the point about UI designer not being hired...

Paul_Boland
08-20-2010, 01:20 PM
Just to say, when I was quoting parts of the article in my opening post, I tried to quote both positive and negative parts so I hope I gave an all round feel for it all. I personally think the article was more negative then positve and when I initially saw the title of it I was expecting a full blown exciting look at CORE. Instead I got some good points and a few more bad ones.

As for the comments at the end, I too couldn't understand the poor support comment and I agree with someone who posted above, the annominous comment was weird!

safetyman
08-20-2010, 01:28 PM
Uh-huh -- you're really just taunting us blokes here in the US about getting the 3d World issue first. It takes us about an extra month to receive it!

wrench
08-20-2010, 01:38 PM
If you had a sub you'd get it about the same time it goes on the shelves in the UK. I've been saying since I was editor on the mag and no doubt I'll say it some more... ;)

B

VirtualFM
08-20-2010, 04:02 PM
Good news about the dongle, though! :)

Sounds like the second best feature of Lightwave 10 until now, right after VPR and just slightly lagging behind.

I HATE the dongle... just hurts legit users.

Matt
08-20-2010, 06:45 PM
Just to let you know, the news piece was written a month ago. Things would have been different given the developments shown at Siggraph

I did think this was the case reading it, as the SIGGRAPH presentation definately changed things hugely.

Trulsi
08-21-2010, 02:33 AM
I live in Norway and have had problems with very delayed delivery of 3D World myself. They must use VERY cheap postage. Which is crap, because we pay for postage (the added price if you're outside of UK, I mean).

I also reacted to that comment from an "anonymous user". That shouldn't be allowed in this setting. I mean, if Newtek sent out a user questionnaire or something, of course people could have the ability to remain anonymous, because Newtek would be looking for as many opinions as possible, and opinions would weigh in almost equally. But here, the opinions carry a lot of weight because they are so few, and because the magazine is supposed to have picked people whose opinions really should carry some weight. They should only quote people who know what they are talking about. Therefore it is very important that we know who said it, and what that persons connection to Lightwave is. Using an anonymous person that bad-mouths Lightwave in the magazine gives me a feeling of the magazine not being objective enough, sort of like Fox News, as someone said:P

On the other hand, it was one of the first really critical articles in 3D World, something I have wanted for for years! Just so sad that it was my puppy application that was hit;) But it was great that you got to do one, Ben Vost! I hope to see more of the kind in the future:)

Also, I must chime in on the praise of HDRI! It has become great. The content is usually very helpful (and most of it is geared toward professionals/advanced users) and the print quality is great.

JAW
08-21-2010, 06:52 AM
I couldn't agree more on this point. And when a tutorial on Lightwave does appear, I find it's not on par with the other packages. The others get rigging, animation, stuff like that, Lightwave gets more basic stuff, though to those who requested them, I'm not putting them down, I'm sure they are delighted to see their question answered. But I'd like Lightwave to get a bit more beef!!

Agreed, were are the LW tutorials and content :(

Trulsi
08-21-2010, 07:00 AM
I think 3D World is very little worth as a Lightwave resource. However, as someone else in here said, it's nice to see what "the others" are up to. Both as in other companies and in other software applications. 3D World is a good news and review resource. For usable tutorial content however, one should probably go to HDRI mag.

Off topic: I have signed up for a term at FXPHD.com. Great stuff so far! Cheap coursing with pro lectureres that answer your questions and follow up their lectures in the forums. No Lightwave courses yet, but you get the chance to check out a lot of apps. They have educational seats of Maya and C4D and compositing and tracking apps that you can run as long as you're connected to their VPN license server. Probably some of the most high value training I've come across so far.

Titus
08-21-2010, 09:30 AM
I couldn't agree more on this point. And when a tutorial on Lightwave does appear, I find it's not on par with the other packages. The others get rigging, animation, stuff like that, Lightwave gets more basic stuff, though to those who requested them, I'm not putting them down, I'm sure they are delighted to see their question answered. But I'd like Lightwave to get a bit more beef!!

Anyone, I mean anyone can submit tutorials to that magazine. I've been accepted in the past to write articles but due to workload and time constrains never had the opportunity to end my tutorials. The quality and quantity of their LW tuts/articles is just a sample of the interest of LW pros. I doubt it's an editorial decision.

Elmar Moelzer
08-21-2010, 11:54 AM
Well, I do hope that NT will still offer the dongle as an alternative. Those machine bound systems are a pain in the lower back.
I also dont know how we are supposed to license VoluMedic to users without a dongle. I guess we just wont?

Dexter2999
08-21-2010, 12:01 PM
Well, I do hope that NT will still offer the dongle as an alternative. Those machine bound systems are a pain in the lower back.
I also dont know how we are supposed to license VoluMedic to users without a dongle. I guess we just wont?

Issue your own dongle?

Elmar Moelzer
08-21-2010, 12:03 PM
Issue your own dongle?
At the small series that we are selling this would be way to expensive to make sense. Plus, I dont really feel like going through the hassle for something that the host application should provide us with.
Oh and I hope that people will also understand the consequence that none of their old dongle tied plugin licenses will work anymore when the dongle is gone...

Elmar Moelzer
08-21-2010, 12:08 PM
Also, I wanted to say that NewTeks customer support has always been very good and nice and on top of that free! NewTek is treating their users better than any other software company I ever had to deal with.

JamesCurtis
08-21-2010, 04:21 PM
"Oh and I hope that people will also understand the consequence that none of their old dongle tied plugin licenses will work anymore when the dongle is gone..." - Elmar

Of course one could always leave the current 9.6 LW version installed for that particular reason. No harm doing so either.

Lightwolf
08-21-2010, 05:37 PM
Of course one could always leave the current 9.6 LW version installed for that particular reason. No harm doing so either.
Which isn't going to help any of our customers, as our plugins are designed to be used for rendering...

Cheers,
Mike

Nemoid
08-22-2010, 04:03 AM
I'd say this.
The aticle has been published in a moment in which things are changing hopefully in better for NT and CORE. It describes the situation of the recent past quite well. But if i was the editor i'd probably not publish this now.

Now Lw has finally a good UI designer; we do know support is good, and i think dev time is working hard to to their job as best as possible to deliver Lw 10 and CORE the better they can.
I think that with Rob Powers leading dev team, things are now better, (even if wasted time never comes back) and that in incoming months we'll see some good news regarding Lw and CORE.

p.s. i also like VERY much the fact Meni is now gonna do an entire movie with LW for animation as well, this time. I guess this production could serve Nt to enhance Lw and CORE developing for the apps what's needed for a long and good quality 3D movie like Anthro is gonna be. :agree:

stevecullum
08-22-2010, 10:32 AM
The aticle has been published in a moment in which things are changing hopefully in better for NT and CORE. It describes the situation of the recent past quite well. But if i was the editor i'd probably not publish this now.

I suppose its never a good time with these things as changes happen very quickly these days. But assuming CORE is released in December this year, then we will see a proper review, where what is said is a better reflection of CORE as it should be.

Perhaps something small in their news section would be good in the meantime, confirming the appointment of a GUI designer...

Elmar Moelzer
08-22-2010, 11:58 AM
I would have thought that 3rd party developers would already have been "installed" in the loop and would know where things stand and what solutions may be available.
I dunno nothin'...
Mike, do you know something I dont?
I guess that Rob just has not had the time yet to talk to us. He only came aboard very recently and was certainly swamped with work for Siggraph.

Lightwolf
08-22-2010, 02:03 PM
I dunno nothin'...
Mike, do you know something I dont?
Not in this case :D (and certainly not in any case when it's about NT ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

Titus
08-22-2010, 05:26 PM
Well... it looks like Rob and the Newtek gang had better get their act together regarding 3rd party developers - and SOON. You guys should have been involved before the article even came out, but you're not even included AFTER? Another Newtek communication problem that NEEDS to be resolved sooner rather than later to eliminate the rumor-mill AND negativity. Even if they're not sure yet as to how they will proceed, all 3rd party developers should be contacted and surveyed as to possible options. This is the "old Newtek" rearing it's head and we don't need to see this any more. The new Siggraph 2010 Newtek is what EVERYONE wants to see and we need that version of Netek to be the norm - not the other one!

I agree.

jeric_synergy
08-22-2010, 10:13 PM
Now Lw has finally a good UI designer;
Are you referring to Matt? Does his position encompass ALL ui issues?

Elmar Moelzer
08-22-2010, 10:26 PM
In all fairness, Jay and co has already announced that NT might change their licensing scheme and at least offer an alternative to the dongle many months ago, IIRC. However, it was never 100% sure whether they would actually drop the dongle all together, or whether it would just be optional or whether they would just offer some sort of server dongle for big studios, universities, etc, or what they had actually planned.
My guess is that until recently the people at NT themselves just were not entirely sure yet what the final solution would look like.
Yes, it would have been nice to get informed about this earlier, even better, be involved in the decision process. I can only guess why this has not happened. I still hope that whatever the final solution may be, it will at least be as userfriendly as the dongle currently is.
The currently very userfriendly model has been one of the main reasons we chose LW as our platform of choice.
I would really hate to loose that and so would our clients.
From the perspective of a 3rd party developer, being tied to LWs dongle has been wonderfully convenient for us. No need to license anything from somewhere else and no need to constantly reissue licenses because someone decided to reinstall somewhere else, or someones harddisc broke. It also allows us to keep track of sold licenses and where they go, whether they have been resold, etc. With a Modo- like scheme, we could not allow reselling of licenses, because we would have absolutely no control of where they go. Considering how pricey VoluMedic is (and has to be), this would mean a big disadvantage for our users.

robertoortiz
08-22-2010, 10:30 PM
Just wanted to add another vote in favor of the dongle here, before the mob gets here.

Elmar Moelzer
08-22-2010, 11:16 PM
Modos model is IMHO the only one that is as userfriendly as LWs, though it trade some advantages for disadvantages.
E.g. you can not run it on multiple machines at the same time within the same network. Until recently they did not allow you to resell it and I think that it is still frowned upon if you do.
I dont quite know what the limitations of the non floatig license are, but I would assume that it is tied to a single machine, just like PS is. Ah and yes, I absolutely hate Adobes model.

Lightwolf
08-23-2010, 03:24 AM
I can understand why guys like Elmar and Mike like the dongle, for their business, but from my perspective it is a useless little nag I'd love to see go poofie.
Actually, if it's like modos and also has hooks for third parties to use the same scheme then I'm all for it.

If we have to develop our own (or buy a third party system) - well, it's a cost either way. And the platform does need to be cost effective to an extent for us to bother with it (i.e. if you spend more time developing a license scheme than a product, or if a third party scheme costs as much as a plugin then that requires a change of plans or end user pricing).

Cheers,
Mike

Lewis
08-23-2010, 05:40 AM
Oh and I hope that people will also understand the consequence that none of their old dongle tied plugin licenses will work anymore when the dongle is gone...

Maybe that's going to be for CORE only and there is no dongle tied plugins in CORE (yet) so no harm done there.

safetyman
08-23-2010, 06:43 AM
I'd like to cast a strong "no vote" for the dongle. I can't get into why, but suffice it to say that the dongle severly limits my ability to use LW fully. Probably a rare circumstance, but still.

As for Adobe's model, I believe they allow you to load their stuff on 2 machines, you just can't use both copies at the same time -- intended for 1 work copy and 1 home copy I would assume.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 06:56 AM
I can move between them as I like, with absolutely no hassle. What's not to like? I certainly don't miss dragging my fragile dongle around
You are most certainly using the floating license then though. Or otherwise what is the difference between floating and non floating license.


Actually, if it's like modos and also has hooks for third parties to use the same scheme then I'm all for it.
I am not really. It does have nothing but disadvantages for me as a 3rd party. As I said, we would definitely prohibit the transfer of licenses between users then, because we cant control where they go. Even Luxology did the same thing until recently and they have more resources they can dedicate to this.


As for Adobe's model, I believe they allow you to load their stuff on 2 machines, you just can't use both copies at the same time -- intended for 1 work copy and 1 home copy I would assume.
First time I have ever heard of this. Adobes model is a major, major PITA, no matter what though. They also do not allow the transfer of licenses.

If NT goes with a model simillar to Adobes or ADs, it is only one reason less for us to stay with LW, to be bluntly honest.

lardbros
08-23-2010, 07:25 AM
So, Neverko... can i get this straight?

If Newtek employed the same system as Luxology, I could install a standard license of LW10 on all my machines, and as long as I didn't run them at the same time, everything would be cool?

I have a few questions...
what is the catch?
does Modo do a search on the network for other copies using the same license key?


I'm confused, BUT, this seems an ideal way to do licensing. As far as I'm concerned... if people pirate software, they'll do it no matter what scheme is in place... so to make it easier for the end user is good for everyone!

I think Autodesk do a 'use at home' thing too. BUT you have to do all the 'borrow license' and then 'return license' thing... which is a massive pain in the a-hole!

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 07:26 AM
Ok, so you can not run multiple non floating Modo licenses within the same network at the same time, is that right then?
I am so confused by this now.

Phil
08-23-2010, 07:29 AM
From my point of view, I happen to like the dongle to some extent, but am constantly worried about it dying due to the inability to get a replacement dongle with the same ID. This is important in order to keep using those plugins that are essential, but the developer has vanished.

Aside from that, another big issue is that the dongle isn't actually portable. You need admin rights to be able to install the drivers on a machine that doesn't already have them available (Windows, at least). That's a major PITA.

To some extent, for software locks, I have tended to like the license system that is used by PointOven and also, before its acquisition, FiberFX (nee FiberFactory). That one would allow the user to deactivate and activate licenses without the developer needing to be involved. It probably didn't do much to deter copyright infringement for the more determine folks, but neither does the dongle when all said and done.

That's also a plus side. I'm not shy about it, but having had more than a few developers rip me off (Prem, Dosch Design, Can Tarcan, etc.), it's useful to have an option to work around any DRM (not applicable for Prem's works) that they don't remove before they close up shop and start ignoring all email. The record from developers here is not good - the vast majority, when they decide to call it a day, simply vanish without a trace and leave their former customers high and dry. That former stalwart of LW plugins, Dynamic Realities, did exactly the same thing. Given that widespread lack of respect, I'm not comfortable with the notion of a flawless DRM scheme - I want to continue to be able to use the software even if the developer no longer cares.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 07:36 AM
From my point of view, I happen to like the dongle to some extent, but am constantly worried about it dying due to the inability to get a replacement dongle with the same ID. This is important in order to keep using those plugins that are essential, but the developer has vanished.
And that would exactly change how, if you had a different licensing scheme?
Worse even, if you had a machine bound license, you could not even switch computers anymore, ever once the developer is gone. Because you would need their server to switch licenses. Please think a bit man!
Geez, I sometimes really wonder how many people here actually have bought the Adobe license that they are using.
Or, the Windows license...


it's useful to have an option to work around any DRM (not applicable for Prem's works) that they don't remove before they close up shop and start ignoring all email.

And a machine bound system would get you that how?

Also let me add that NewTek has always been very nice and compatible in their licensing and when dealing with the dongle.
I have never had a fried dongle, ever (and I had the old parallel port ones to). Biggest danger is of loosing the thing. But that is lower than the chance of your harddisk fying.

artstorm
08-23-2010, 08:03 AM
I must say I am absolutely not a fan of the dongle either.

Luxology's license scheme must be the best there is from a user perspective. They have a nice philosophy that the user trusts Luxology by paying them for the software and they show trust back by having such a hassle free license scheme as possible.
It's just a license key, not tied to any hardware, install it where you need it, take it with you, download a new one if you left your file at home etc etc. I can always get modo up and running on a new system within minutes, licensed and ready.

The dongle on the other hand is an accident waiting to happen. It's one of my biggest fears that the dongle dies on me in the middle of production close to a tight and important deadline. What then? I can ask NewTek to send a replacement but even with courier we're talking more than a day getting it to Sweden. And that's expensive and I guess that cost is on my dime. And it happens dongles are out of stock, the horror. And when the replacement arrives, the work starts to contact all plugin vendors to get new license keys for the plugins I rely on. Add probably another day or two before everything is back to normal. And the plugin vendors that have gone out business, those plugins are from that point unusable as they are tied to the old dongle.
And what to say to the client? Sorry, no delivery for you this week, the dongle died on me. I'm sure they would understand, or probably not.

That scenario could happen with the dongle tied system, and is an Achilles heel for Lightwave when relying on it to deliver on time if a failure should occur. That could never ever happen when using modo's license scheme.
So from a user's viewpoint I fail to see any advantage with using a hardware tied license system, only uncertainty what to do if it fails at the wrong time.
License schemes should not punish paying customers by getting in the way or adding another point of failure that could hurt the production done with the software.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 08:16 AM
As I said, Luxologies system is the only one that is acceptable to me beyond LWs own system.
Anything else is tied to hardware too, just your computer hardware and not a dongle-and if that hardware dies, then you are in real trouble.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 08:30 AM
If you want, you can do the same with LW, by unpluggin the dongle. Though I'm not sure this is a NewTek sanctioned process?

I know you can do that. I use it quite often. NT is not doing anything to promote this fact to the public, but they are not doing anything against it either. I think it is just one of these things that come in handy when you need it.

Phil
08-23-2010, 08:44 AM
And that would exactly change how, if you had a different licensing scheme?
Worse even, if you had a machine bound license, you could not even switch computers anymore, ever once the developer is gone. Because you would need their server to switch licenses. Please think a bit man!
Geez, I sometimes really wonder how many people here actually have bought the Adobe license that they are using.
Or, the Windows license...

Try reading more slowly and reacting less quickly. Your refraining from slipping in 'pirate' allegations would also be appreciated, Elmar. As you say, think a bit, man.

In the case of the mentioned FiberFactory and PointOven systems, there is no license server and there is no developer interaction up to the point where you screw the license up. At least then you only lose access to one part of the toolchain - not the whole damn thing, which is what the dongle does for you.

By the time you add up all the addons that rely on the dongle, it starts looking like a very high risk single point of failure that will shut you down. It's not as though LW runs in any kind of useful way once the dongle blows up, either. Not even a 30 day grace period, and certainly not one that will keep your addons available while you wait for NT to ship out a replacement dongle (with a different ID).

To repeat, since you happily excised the original, presumably skipping over it in a need to get all fired up :

The dongle would be a more viable model *if* the user could get a true replacement. One with the same ID as was originally issued. Getting a dongle replaced wouldn't be a pleasant experience - you'd still be down for however long it took to get a replacement, but at least you'd have the confidence that everything would keep working.


And a machine bound system would get you that how?

A random Google search suggests a buttload of keygens for all manner of products, including all of Adobe's latest and greatest DRM-locked products. Should the need arise, it would appear relatively straightforward. I know enough people who got burnt by Can Tarcan who have worked out this using the power of Google to be able to use software they paid for and then lost the ability to use due to dongle issues and a developer who didn't care.


Also let me add that NewTek has always been very nice and compatible in their licensing and when dealing with the dongle.
I have never had a fried dongle, ever (and I had the old parallel port ones to). Biggest danger is of loosing the thing. But that is lower than the chance of your harddisk fying.

NewTek isn't the problem. It's the fact that LW relies on an endless list of addons that all pin to the dongle. Without those addons, it's a much more limited beast. The dongle is also a relatively complex and vulnerable item. I've killed one in the past. I'm deathly afraid of losing or killing the Duo dongle I've had since LW 7.0 was released and I swapped out the parallel port dongle I had before then. NT aren't the only link in the chain - it requires 3rd party developers to still care about their customers. Many have opted not to do so in recent past.

With the recent build quality of hard disks, I'm thinking that you have set a very wide spectrum of tolerance for dongle failure. HDs seem to die with alarming regularity these days - external and internal.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 08:53 AM
Should the need arise, it would appear relatively straightforward. I know enough people who got burnt by Can Tarcan who have worked out this using the power of Google to be able to use software they paid for and then lost the ability to use due to dongle issues and a developer who didn't care.

Using a crack is possible no matter what system, dongle or no dongle. That does not mean that I would like it.

Again, all other systems, but Luxologys system tie themselves to a piece of hardware in your computer as well. If that fails, you have the same result to a broken dongle. Only that then you have to send out a harddrive or network card instead of a little dongle and hope that someone has mercy with you.

In the 15 years that I have been using LW, I have had tons of broken motherboards and harddrives. I never had a broken dongle.

artstorm
08-23-2010, 09:05 AM
Again, all other systems, but Luxologys system tie themselves to a piece of hardware in your computer as well. If that fails, you have the same result to a broken dongle.

Well, not if it's done properly by the developer. Two of my machine locked applications handles this very well, Vue / ZBrush. I had my system drive die two years ago, and I was back up and running within hours.

Getting a new drive was just a trip down to the local shop. Then reinstalling Vue on the new drive a new activation code was generated. Completely automatic. Up and running immediately, I could then later go into my account at e-on and delete the old activation. I don't know how many activations they allow per license, but if you use it up, you can always yourself delete activations.

The same for ZBrush, which allows two activations, so I could activate ZBrush immediately on my new drive with the second activation and then I called support to reset the prior activation as I couldn't do that myself. If both activations had been used up all it would have taken was a phonecall to have them resetted, much quicker (and cheaper) than waiting for a piece of purple hardware to get shipped.

Still Luxology's is the most hassle free, but machine tied doesn't have to be much of a pain either. As there was no problem to get each machine locked application back in production the same day in other words. With the dongle that wouldn't have been the case.

geo_n
08-23-2010, 09:13 AM
Yeah modo honor system is cool.
Actually slightly better than modo license scheme is 3dcoat license scheme. If you forget to close 3dcoat program on another pc, you can still use it somewhere but it will give you a warning only that another license is active. No render slave mode. Maybe after a few warning then Andrew will email you personally :D
Focus more on giving a good product and excellent updates than losing sleep whether a program is being pirated and I'm sure it will be profitable because people will buy it.
It is scary to lose dongle and all plugins tied to it. 3rd party devs should realize that no matter what they do they can't stop pirates. I'm waiting what octane render can do since they try to challenge pirates :D
Its one of those things you deal with when selling a product in real life or pc software.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 09:38 AM
3rd party devs should realize that no matter what they do they can't stop pirates.

Oh, I have no illusions about that, even though we have successfully prevented any cracks of newer versions of VoluMedic... with a more direct approach...
The honor system is a funny idea, only I have troubles with this after someone provided VoluMedic to Inferno only a couple of weeks after the release. This caused us to not issue fully featured demos anymore (yeah sucks, but thank the guy who provided).
Anyway, this experience somewhat annoyed me, quite honestly.
The other problem is that we- as I said- wont have any way of following up on what happens to the license after we have sold it. Someone could just go and resell it a few times and we wont know.
It makes a huge mess.
Anyway, I dont get the animousity towards the Dongle. We have never had any issues whatsoever... well except one incident, but the responsible person was stupid and that is not the dongles fault.
I really hate the Speed Edit licensing scheme, btw. In fact, I hate it so much, that we have decided to not update it anymore and take one of the other options on the market instead.

Lightwolf
08-23-2010, 09:39 AM
Focus more on giving a good product and excellent updates than losing sleep whether a program is being pirated and I'm sure it will be profitable because people will buy it.
Look at how well shareware or donation-ware is doing. And it ain't.

Its one of those things you deal with when selling a product in real life or pc software.
Unfortunately it is. And the point is not to make it crack proof, but to make it harder to "casual" copying (a term coined, I believe, by luxology).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
08-23-2010, 09:42 AM
I really hate the Speed Edit licensing scheme, btw. In fact, I hate it so much, that we have decided to not update it anymore and take one of the other options on the market instead.
Word!

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 09:42 AM
but to make it harder to "casual" copying
Exactlyl and to prevent people from selling you a registered license that they have alrady sold to someone else...
This is actually a huge problem with the Lux model and I dont see how they handle it.

Lightwolf
08-23-2010, 09:47 AM
Exactlyl and to prevent people from selling you a registered license that they have alrady sold to someone else...
This is actually a huge problem with the Lux model and I dont see how they handle it.
The license is linked to an on-line account.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 09:53 AM
The license is linked to an on-line account.
And users have an extra account for every license?

Lightwolf
08-23-2010, 10:01 AM
And users have an extra account for every license?
Not necessarily, no. Which is why they charge if you want to transfer it.

Cheers,
Mike

safetyman
08-23-2010, 10:01 AM
Just to follow up about Adobe's License.

Direct from the Adobe EULA: "2.4 Portable or Home Computer Use. The primary user of the Computer on which the Software is installed may install a second copy of the Software for his or her exclusive use on either a portable Computer or a Computer located at his or her home, provided the Software on the portable or home Computer is not used at the same time as the Software on the primary Computer."

Kinda interesting.

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 10:12 AM
Not necessarily, no. Which is why they charge if you want to transfer it.

Ahh, this is where the catch is, gggg
I knew it!
Still it is better than not being able to sell it at all (Adobe and AD).
Anyway the problem with online accounts and all that is, that either you need someone to maintain them, or they have to be somehow automatic. In any case this means resources and money that we do not have.

lardbros
08-23-2010, 12:15 PM
There appears to be no perfect answer.... so long as Newtek think with their heads and not their wallets, we should be ok i think.

Although, whoever's idea it was for the SpeedEdit licensing scheme should be for the high jump... it's licensing at its worsed.

I've found Vue's to be good also... but anything from Turbosquid is a bit of a pain. Photoshop is a nightmare... my hardrive died and when it was replaced, I had to reactivate PS on the install... not normally a problem, but i must have done it more than 3 times, so had to get put through to an American call centre... it's just too much of a pain trying to explain stuff to them. She wanted all of my details.... even my home details, despite being at work, so I just said no :)

3ds max is also a massive pain in the ring... especially when someone else is the administrator of the account, you can't even get the product key, that used to be on the CD case, from the online account login. Only if the admin guy has allowed everyone access can we access it... but he doesn't know us from Adam (our company is huge), and won't give us access.

Lightwolf
08-23-2010, 12:45 PM
There appears to be no perfect answer.... so long as Newtek think with their heads and not their wallets, we should be ok i think.
The only works if both "sides" think that way though.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
08-23-2010, 01:30 PM
Yes, listen to Lardbros and Megalodon! It pretty much sums up a lot of my concerns very nicely.
I would be willing to sacrifice some security for a system like Luxes, if there is no other way than to drop the dongle. Though I would really, really dislike doing that.
Any other system would put NewTeks licensing scheme on the same level with AD and Adobe and that means that they will be evaluated on that same level about a lot of things...

Lewis
08-23-2010, 01:41 PM
But I think that two different licensing systems (dongle free and dongle protected) would be nightmare to maintain and customer support :(. So either go with Luxology system or stay with dongle. For me both systems would be fine as long as it's not big hassle for users to activate it like with some other systems :(.

cgisoul
08-24-2010, 09:14 PM
Well, I never got problems with NT Customer Support. I specially give Ricky from NT CS 5 stars for his professionalism and willingness to help. I always get a reply within 10 hours, sometimes even right away when I get a problem. I don't know how it was in the past, but at present time, NT CS is 5 stars.

Yes, CORE will take sometime to be a complete program and work as it should, but like anything else, if you believe hard enough, eventually it will work.

Now what we need is a good serial of tutorials / documentation about CORE and it should be released in the same time as CORE v.1 is shipped out.

BinaryX
08-25-2010, 04:14 AM
Hey guys, we seem to be drifting off point here... :)

The dongle issue seems like a new thread really.