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RebelHill
08-05-2010, 08:48 PM
So, yeah...

What the thread title says.

Just over a year ago I released my set of RHR character rigging tutorials, which have received a lot of attention, and, I hope, been of considerable use to many people.

But still there's no getting away from the fact that to set up higher end rigs, with stable and diverse controls, and good deforms takes a long time, and a lot of practice... often a lot more than many folks have either the time, or patience for.

So now Im adding to the family with my own autorigging tool, RHiggit. A fantastic tool, delivering dependable, professional results in minutes. What more can I really say other than take a look for yourselves.

Details on the site. (or in the sig).

www.rebelhill.net

TeZzy
08-05-2010, 08:59 PM
looks awesome mate. You make rigging look easy haha

probiner
08-05-2010, 09:32 PM
Oh wow hot stuff. Nice swing with the title name :D

Cheers

Troyano
08-05-2010, 09:34 PM
Very attractive price.

boomforeal
08-05-2010, 09:36 PM
Hey that looks great. Was just wondering if its been tested on Mac platform?

Cageman
08-05-2010, 09:40 PM
Cool stuff, RH! :) :thumbsup:

One nitpick here, there is no information about what the products you offer costs. :)

EDIT: Ok, I found the price for RHiggit Lite, but I really had to look for it. It would be nice if the price can be more in your face, so to speak, not having to look for it.

probiner
08-05-2010, 09:47 PM
Agreed with cageman. you have a price in the midle fo the text, not the price tag. Which is very acessible by the way.

nickdigital
08-05-2010, 09:50 PM
Wow, congrats on this. Your tutorials are awesome.

Will definitely be on a look out for the Pro version.

geo_n
08-05-2010, 09:56 PM
Looks like a great tool :thumbsup:. Are add on packs still planned even for the lite version?

GraphXs
08-05-2010, 10:03 PM
Nice rig! does it show how also to set up a character with the rig and switch out characters and re position the rig. Really amazing stuff! Also do you show how to set up the morphs, etc. Looks like a great time saver!

Dreamcube017
08-05-2010, 10:15 PM
Wow this looks awesome! And thanks for the demo as well. As soon as I get my character finished, I'll have to test it out. Thanks for making this.

OFF
08-05-2010, 10:38 PM
great news, great work, congratulation RH!

(p.s.:can't find registration button on the site board)
(p.p.s.: how about rigging multiply characters in the same scene?)

wesleycorgi
08-05-2010, 11:30 PM
Hi RH, are your tutorials changed from the last month or so. I recently purchased before your site update with RHiggit. Also any discount for us who have bought your tutes in the past? I'm definitely going to buy RHiggit, but can you help a brother out? :)

Dodgy
08-06-2010, 12:18 AM
Good stuff RH. Good price too!

Jim M
08-06-2010, 04:00 AM
Also any discount for us who have bought your tutes in the past? I'm definitely going to buy RHiggit, but can you help a brother out?

Its £40 ! surely you arent going to barter

rdrdrd23
08-06-2010, 04:14 AM
Excellent stuff as always Craig. For £40, you really can't go wrong....
no, *WE* can't go wrong, just you won't be able to afford your Aston Martin! 8)))
Fair play to you mate, its another great addition to your portfolio

wesleycorgi
08-06-2010, 05:40 AM
Its £40 ! surely you arent going to barter

I'm definitely going to buy. But I'm a bit skint right now. :)

RebelHill
08-06-2010, 06:08 AM
Thanks for the kind word fellas.

Ive added some FAQ for RHiggit on the /board, re the mac Q, and other stuff.

As for the price, thanks, Im trying to make it competetive, and worth having for folks who may not want to rig new characters that often, but who're (probably consequently) not that up on the whole rigging thing.

As for the discount... not on Lite, sorry. But there shall be discounts for buyers (new and old) of RHR with RHiggit pro.

WillBellJr
08-06-2010, 06:10 AM
Wonderful rigs! I also LOVED your reel - watching the eggs and the pig trip and fall was a hoot!

I'd be so cool if you could collaborate with Newtek and make the next era of Lightwave's character animation that much better by having them incorporate into LW some of your advanced rigging concepts!

I'm definitely sold on this - lite and pro when available.

I'll play with the demo a bit; I really want to take good advantage of these tools - unfortunately being mostly a modeler, I need a kick in the pants to get my animation / rigging skills in LW out of the stone ages...

-Will

wesleycorgi
08-06-2010, 06:22 AM
As for the discount... not on Lite, sorry. But there shall be discounts for buyers (new and old) of RHR with RHiggit pro.

Sounds good.

erikals
08-06-2010, 07:42 AM
wondering, what's the difference between RHiggit pro and RHiggit lite...

RebelHill
08-06-2010, 08:13 AM
wondering, what's the difference between RHiggit pro and RHiggit lite...

Well... dont wanna talk too much just yet about whats on the cards for RHiggit pro.. A, cos it spoils the suspense, B, cos if I promise something I aint quite worked out yet, hit a snag, and cant do it, pepole will point and laugh and call me a dumbass.

A couple things I can say though.

First off, the same stuff as lite but more advanced... more advanced control systems/options/more advanced deforms, etc.
A few additional little goodies and rig tools to help out with different aspects of the character pipeline are also planned.

And one of the main features is gonna be pose independent rigging... so even less messing around, doing away with getting meshes into rig ready Tposes, and faster exchange when working on character creation. So roughly rig a base mesh... pose it somehow that looks comfortable, send the mesh to ZB, sculpt it, reposing it and changing proportions as you go, sling it back, adjust the rig (couple minutes max), test out deforms, etc, back and forth, back and forth. It'll let you put rigging, and rig testing into your whole character creation pipeline, enabling you to work up a design, and topology that poses, and deforms EXACTLY the way you want it to...

and all that jazz!

Netvudu
08-06-2010, 08:30 AM
Will Lite users get an upgrade option for Pro? I´m sure it´s not good business for me telling you I will purchase Pro anyway, but I would still want to know.

This thing rocks.

RebelHill
08-06-2010, 08:51 AM
of course. just a straight forward pay the difference option.

Castius
08-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Looks great RebelHill. I hope with rigs like this we will start to see Lightwave animators start to return to LW.

mav3rick
08-06-2010, 09:27 AM
oh already ordered ;) i just cant resist when we talk about characters :) great work rebel!

kosmodave
08-06-2010, 11:07 AM
of course. just a straight forward pay the difference option.

Great stuff, going to order right now :thumbsup:

Dave

erikals
08-06-2010, 04:24 PM
great stuff rebel hill...
(don't forget quadruped :]

oliversimonnet
08-06-2010, 04:32 PM
haha nice and only 40 quid :)
sounds good :)

Philbert
08-06-2010, 05:58 PM
I will definitely pick this up. I had to look up the price though. There should be a script or something that automatically converts the GBP to USD or whatever the viewers currency is. I used to use T4D but haven't touched it in a while. This looks much more useful by far.

h2oStudios
08-06-2010, 07:46 PM
Wow, how'd I miss this thread?

Great work, RH! Impressive as always. Oh, and your Site is looking pretty slick now, nice update...

As for Rhiggit Lite, I can personally say that this is one hell of an addition to LW. A BIG time saver, and a very stable, feature filled Rig.

Cheers!

3dWannabe
08-06-2010, 08:59 PM
looks very interesting!

I've had Maestro on my list of possible purchases for a while.

Not being an expert on rigging, I don't even know the proper questions to ask.

Can you compare RHiggit!! to Maestro?

ericsmith
08-06-2010, 10:57 PM
Can you compare RHiggit!! to Maestro?

While you could do a comparison of rig features back and forth, that's ultimately glossing over the issue that Maestro really isn't so much an autorigger as it is an animation control system.

I think if I look at the two as objectively as possible, I would say that RHiggit is an autorigger that creates a very comprehensive and industry standard kind of rig with what looks like a very elegant and easy to use joint placement system. It's price is quite good considering how comprehensive the rig is (consider that T4d's rig was quite simple, and ran in the $45 - $60 range, and the late ACS4 was $120 and even at that wasn't nearly as comprehensive as RHiggit).

Maestro, on the other hand, carries with it a very different approach to character animation. The rigs it creates are meant to be controlled primarily with the control interface, and they are more based on my personal ideas of what makes a character move in a fluid, emotive way. I'm definitely approaching the whole idea of controlling the rig in a unique way. (although that's not to say that I've gone completely off the beaten path with the fundimentals - they are definitely covered)

Ultimately, though, what it really comes down to is which way of working feels most comfortable to you. Fortunately, you can try both for free, and make the decision based on your own personal preference.

And I think it's worth pointing out that if it's financially feasable, you could do well to have both. Maestro's control interface and keyframe editor could be a great way to control the RHiggit rig, especially considering how many control items there are.

Eric

geo_n
08-06-2010, 11:08 PM
And I think it's worth pointing out that if it's financially feasable, you could do well to have both. Maestro's control interface and keyframe editor could be a great way to control the RHiggit rig, especially considering how many control items there are.

Eric


And that's exactly what I intend to do especially if the expansion packs are out. The selection system in layout is not so good especially with a tablet. Those sliders make me crazy.
I've used maestro to control cars and machines and I will control Rhiggit rigs with it too.

Soth
08-07-2010, 04:25 AM
And that's exactly what I intend to do especially if the expansion packs are out.
Someone will do it, definitely! If it wont be you I hope Eric will do it, if not and we will hang on to maestro here I will do it then. :)


The selection system in layout is not so good especially with a tablet. Those sliders make me crazy.
Yea, tell me about it. :)

erikals
08-07-2010, 05:08 AM
combining RHiggit & Maestro is definitely an idea.

colkai
08-07-2010, 05:51 AM
And I think it's worth pointing out that if it's financially feasable, you could do well to have both. Maestro's control interface and keyframe editor could be a great way to control the RHiggit rig, especially considering how many control items there are.

Eric
I think that's a great point, utilizing two very good products. Too easy I think for people to see Maestro and RHiggit as direct competitors when they could almost be considered complimentary packages. :)

I've never really tackled CA, but if I reach the end of the month before the end of my money, I will certainly be considering buying the RHiggit rig, if not just for the education of looking at it. At £40, it is within my "buy without checking with the missus first" range. :p

Soth
08-07-2010, 06:54 AM
At £40, it is within my "buy without checking with the missus first" range. :p
Lucky you, for me it is £5... ;(

RebelHill
08-07-2010, 07:22 AM
Can you compare RHiggit!! to Maestro?

Well sure. Tbh, Eric's right on the money with wht he says... but let me throw my own little take on it a bit.

If we're gonna compare just the RIGS... then ofc I feel that mine is superior. First, I wouldnt bother releasing it, and trying to compete with a product I already thought had me beat. Second... i wouldnt have even gotten as far as developing this rig... Id just be using maestro.

My rig is very industry standard in its design layout and available controls. Ive used this basic rig design for a while now on different projects, which have had animators across them all used to different softwares and systems, an every one of them has found the rig familiar, friendly, and very fast to understand and work with. (leaving them just to get to grips with LWs graph editor, selection sets, scene editor, dope sheet, etc, lol). theres a lot of good control available in the Maestro rig, and it handles well with respect to gimbal, etc... but it is very much designed for use with the Maestro interface... its a hog used directly in viewport/graph. (sorry eric, just imo;] )

The point is that a character rig is really an INTERFACE created for a given character model. Now whilst Im not one just to go with a particular design cos everyones using it... at the same time Im not one to do things different just to be different, and this industry standard rig that has evolved between users and packages over the years is pretty darn good, so if it aint broken, why fx it.

So yes my rig is very stable, and the IKs reliable, and all that technical jazz... but it is a commercial rig product, so you'd kinda expect that I think... like steering, and brakes. Whats really IMORTANT to my mind is the standardisation. Cos if you're a studio, and want to hire an animator, who may or may not have used LW... thi rig will help u get them animating faster. If you're a hobbiest, or student, or working in a studio that uses LW... maybe you'll move on someday, to toher schools,other shops, and other packages. Being used to and familiar with a standard character interface similar to what you'll find out there in the world will help you transition easier.

Now that said about the RIG... what Eric said about Maestro being an animation system is also very true... and theres stuff in there thats very industry standard too. Take for instance the character panel. You see these a lot in maya/max/softimage... They are you understand, not so much a feature of the program... they're custom setup by TDs on a per character basis... much like Eric has done with Meastro (the implementation is just easier in other packages than LW, which is one reason u see more of them there). Maestro, like u can with other packages, and plugs, gives you a picker that you can customise... it doesnt HAVE to be linked to the Maestro rig... so yes, using it with teh RH rig is certainly viable. Take as well the way u click to select controls on teh maestro picker, and then drag around over the Maestro interface. This can be seen as pretty analogous to Mayas virtual slider. Maestro also gives you different tools for keyframe management/timing, etc, etc. Though there have been improvements in LWs standard interface for these things, it does still fall behind some other packages in some ways, so Maestro fills in here very nicely.

But since RHiggit doesnt have an animation inteface, and its just a standard viewport/graph based rig... then to compare, I have to say I believe the RH rig is better as... Its the most up to date with teh current releases and tools of LW. It offers better deforms I believe, certainly more predictable deforms across a wider range of meshes/topologies/densities. This is largely due to new tools in 9.6+ that meastro doesnt take advantage of. I use far fewer hold bones, etc, and the greater simplicity in the deform rig makes it easier to make user edits to customise things on a per character basis where need be. The control system is full featured and complex, yet delivered in a very small number of controls... 1 main control for the lifting/turning/posing of the foot. The number of channels and objects you have to go adn adjust keys for is pretty small. Just to point that out... Taking all the main pivot points of my rig... root, spine, elbows, fingers, etc, etc... a full FK rig, with a joint at each of those joitns... no offsets, no nothing... just a hierarchy that you rotate joint by joint would require the placement of a total of 50 joints/control points. Thats 50 controls just to have a bend at every bend. My complete rig uses 88 controls total, to control the same set of bends, thats with the FK, IK stretch and so on. 38 extra nulls to click on and move or rotate for all that extra control. So when it comes to a rig that is built for working with the standard LW interface... there really is nothing else about that does the same for controlability, deformation, and speed of workflow.

The point is, to my mind, RHiggit is very much focussed on rigging characters... ones with good control, taht are easy and intuitive to animate, so my aim is to help people get their characters rigged so as they can start animating. Maestro, having been around longer is, and has been, I think, more aimed at patching up the workflow holes in LWs character animation system... management/handling, etc, rather than its rigging, a lot of the stuff I use in a rig not even being available when it was designed. Maestro's autorigger is a necessary inclusion, as Maestro used as a character animation tool is of no use if someone doesnt have a rig already built.

Used apart each has their own strength over the other... if its toss up between the 2, Id (obviously) say RHiggit, as its the most up to date, and I feel gives the fastest control interface.

But used together Im sure the results could be for a very fast and efficient workflow indeed, because even though I think their aims are quite different, I also they think they're very much the same.

Neither is for people who want to rig, both are for people who want to animate.

digitaldoc
08-07-2010, 10:25 AM
It looks great. I am almost ready to buy. I find on the RH_Adam that moving the boxes for the face control does nothing to the model. Am I missing a plugin? Thanks :help:

RebelHill
08-07-2010, 11:52 AM
dd; thats unusual, there's certainly no plugins needed. Maybe try checking the mesh object properties to see that its morph mixer is activated, and take a peek in graph editor, to make sure that there's a nice big long list of expressions, and they all show connection to at least one channel.

Otherwise it def works off the downloaded file, maybe try downloading again if something did got broke.

Also... For those who already bought RHiggit Lite, first off thanks, but second off a bug has been noted and fixed, details are here...

http://rebelhill.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=53&sid=7a3fa362d79d798d735bcc782a3abdda

digitaldoc
08-07-2010, 12:05 PM
RH,

I just tried in 9.6 64 bit and it works just fine, but not in 32 bit. Go figue!
Thanks, will be ordering soon.

Steve

ericsmith
08-07-2010, 12:14 PM
Great post, Craig.

I want to keep my input on this thread minimal, as it's really about your cool new tool, not a debate, but if you'll indulge me, I'd like to respond to a few of your points.


If we're gonna compare just the RIGS... then ofc I feel that mine is superior. First, I wouldnt bother releasing it, and trying to compete with a product I already thought had me beat. Second... i wouldnt have even gotten as far as developing this rig... Id just be using maestro.

See, I don't quite see it that way. For example, you could use that argument to say that there's no reason for Newtek to release LW 10, as Maya has got it "beat". The reality is, it's not that simple. LW has strengths that Maya does not, even if Maya is more industry standard and has strengths that LW doesn't. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the rig I developed works the way I want a rig to work, and the rig you developed works the way you want a rig to work. There have got to be scores of different approaches to this, based on each animator's desires and workflow. When it comes to autoriggers, to a large extent, I think people are either buying your preferences, or mine, or Peter's (when he was selling T4d), etc.


theres a lot of good control available in the Maestro rig, and it handles well with respect to gimbal, etc... but it is very much designed for use with the Maestro interface... its a hog used directly in viewport/graph. (sorry eric, just imo;] )


Totally agree with you here. From my point of view, the interface is part of the rig. Without it, animation would not be fun.


at the same time Im not one to do things different just to be different, and this industry standard rig that has evolved between users and packages over the years is pretty darn good, so if it aint broken, why fx it.

Okay, I'd like to vent a bit here. Not at you or RHiggit at all, but rather at the "industry standard". See, I think the standard sucks. Not just in how rigs are designed, but the whole concept of how you select, translate and animate things. As has been discussed in other threads, simply selecting an item in the viewport can range from tricky to dam-near impossible. Then you have to either hit a hot-key or a button to decide if you want to move or rotate, then actually drag. It's a lot of steps just to modify one point of a character. And it really adds up when you've got an entire body to deal with.

Then, the thing that really kills me is the fact that dragging in the viewport doesn't necessarily respond the way one would expect. When I want to rotate a character's head to the left and down, I typically have to drag up and to the right. It's completely backwards. If I want to move something diagonally up and to the right, that's going to require two seperate click and drags, because you have to right click to move up.

I could continue with a long list of these kind of issues, but hopefully that's enough to make the point. Again, this is not a slant in any way against your rig. These gripes are my personal take, and it's coming from the perspective of someone who's obsessive about ergonomics and efficiency. I'm just trying to illustrate that there can be multiple points of view, and neither have to be wrong. (quick disclaimer: I'm not intimately aquainted with Maya or XSI, but the brief experience I have with them has led me to the conclusion that while they may not be quite as akward as LW can be on some of these points, they still suffer from the overall problems)


But since RHiggit doesnt have an animation inteface, and its just a standard viewport/graph based rig... then to compare, I have to say I believe the RH rig is better as... Its the most up to date with teh current releases and tools of LW. It offers better deforms I believe, certainly more predictable deforms across a wider range of meshes/topologies/densities. This is largely due to new tools in 9.6+ that meastro doesnt take advantage of.

You are right that Maestro doesn't use any of the new tools in 9.6+, but that was a very carefully considered decision. The fact is, using 9.6 and it's new tools comes at the price of speed performance.

Just to compare:

My machine - Quad core Intel 9560 running at 3.3 ghz. Not the fastest available, but pretty high end.

RH adam rig - 3670 polys
At subD level 0, I get around 8.5 fps in LW9.6. Frankly, that's too low to actually view your animation as you work. The only way to actually see the animation you're working on is to render a preview.

Maestro rig with female character - 6923 polys
At subD level 0, I get around 18.5 fps in LW9.6. Not quite real-time, but close. And in LW9.0, I get double that. I can set the character to subD level 2 and still get 24 fps.

Not being able to instantly see my animation work as I'm doing it is an absolute deal-breaker for me. It's the reason that I continue to animate in 9.0, and then move forward to 9.6 to light and render (I really like the new spherical light as well as Dpont's light kit). So the bottom line is, the new rigging features in 9.6 are not nearly worthwile enough to overcome that fundimental downfall, in my opinion.

Now all of that said, I do think you've done a very good job with RHiggit. There are some interesting and elegant solutions both in setup and control. So congrats, and I hope your plugin does very well.

Eric

ericsmith
08-07-2010, 12:26 PM
Update on interaction speed:

I just re-opened the RH adam scene, and now I'm seeing more along the lines of 10-11 fps at subD 0. Not sure why the discrepancy, but I don't want to mis-inform if my first attempt wasn't normal.

Eric

RebelHill
08-07-2010, 01:46 PM
Yes, you're right... the standard viewport navigation of pretty much everything in retty much every 3D package could probably use a rethink fundamentally from the aspect of character animation. Its a tricky thing to implement system wide though Id have thought, which is why for folks who really hate it, having the option of a different interface just for CA is a great thing indeed.

As for the changes made in 9.6... some of which have definately caused a slow down of interactivity, especially any rig interactivity... I go the other way. I find the new options allow for controls and systems that were previously not possible with LW, especially when it comes to newer deform controls. Deforms have always been my major bugbear... and Im not prepared to trade all my new deform goodness for the speed increase of stepping back a version, lol. I find that I get on average 10-12 fps out of my rigs, depending on the specific modification/optimisation... which is fine for scrubbing your motions while animating. Real time playback by just htting play would be NICE... but its not a necessity, and only getting around half realtime playback doesnt for me cause that much of a bottleneck in terms of my workflow.

If NT, however, could get some of the kinks worked out of 9.6 and implemented in 10, especially better performance for rigs, then I def think that LW, backed up with tools like RHiggit and Maestro could provide for a pretty formidable CA environment when compared to other packages, most especially in speed of workflow.

Netvudu
08-07-2010, 01:57 PM
I think eric brings some interesting points, but he didn´t account for one essential point that Craig brought to the table and is related to the "industry standards" topic.
As of today, there are very few character animators in LW (for those of you doing CA in LW, I know there are some, but not many). The reason I know it is because at our studio the one job we usually hire people for, is precisely this one.
Now, animators have grown to create their artwork in a very specific way, and if you want them to hit the ground running you have to respect their workflow, as opposed to changing their way of working.
It is much more cost effective for a small studio like us (3Monos VFX) to give an animator a rig and a way of working he´s used to, than trying to teach him something new. In the medium/long run we might discuss about the validity of the points Maestro brings into the table, but for a short term, which is the kind of work you hire freelancers for, I think Craig´s rig will make most animators feel more "at home".

I also think Maestro toolset remains absolutely valid and it surely is useful, but the fact that many people (i.e. my studio partners and me) find Craig´s tool as a must-buy (probably as soon as our holidays end and we get back to work) must mean something regarding the usefulness of it.

I think RHiggit alongside with up and coming Weighter 2 can make the whole character rigging workflow a breeze.

It still surprises me so heavily that nobody brought back old Keytrak´s functionality into the table (specially the part about having independent keys for selection sets and animation layers)...that´s some of what´s still missing from the equation...

khan973
08-07-2010, 02:00 PM
Just bought it!
I'm always down to support doing amazing things. I hope I'll get a disount on the PRO version as I bought RHR when it released.
I hope to get it soon in my mailbox!
Thanks!!!!

RebelHill
08-07-2010, 02:08 PM
Yes... I think the standardisation thing is very important. Having had to rig for lots of different folks, lots of different animators over the years, it has become quite clear that the more familiarity, and ease of access you can create in a rig, the better.

Khan... TaDa! And yes... discount on pro. There will be a package deal for RHR+pro, which'll be valid for all owners, they dont have to be bought at the same time, and any purchase of Rhiggit Lite will also be discounted against pro, bought either on its own or in comination with RHR. Buy together, but at different times, everyone will get the same pricing overall.

stobbs
08-07-2010, 02:33 PM
Hi does it do quadrupeds?

geo_n
08-07-2010, 02:38 PM
Speaking of performance speed and animation workflow, why is lw 9.0 faster than 9.6?
The reason why there are few character stuff in lw, wheter it follow standard conventions or not, imho is the lack of mocap workflow that you can do in less than 2 minutes. Why newtek is ignoring this even for lw 10 I don't know. They can easily integrate something like maestro and make importing and retargetting mocap easier.

Sample stuff we do, all mocap. Hand animating this would take days. There are no rig setup at all only character studio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-uXwM4kbyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv2eSfXgqh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR3weKN5qeY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ElOdqpwTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0Lesxqbb7k

It takes only 1-3 people to do more than 30 min full cg (fx,cloth,hair,biped mocap) with the compositing team 1-2 people on a short deadline 4-6 weeks.
I know its not the best animation/quality comparing to western animation but this kind of projects pay a lot and the only way to do it fast is by using mocap. Someone should really make it easy to do in lw. No mdd, no fbx, no ikb. Just direct import and retargetting.

ericsmith
08-07-2010, 04:24 PM
As for the changes made in 9.6... some of which have definately caused a slow down of interactivity, especially any rig interactivity... I go the other way. I find the new options allow for controls and systems that were previously not possible with LW, especially when it comes to newer deform controls. Deforms have always been my major bugbear... and Im not prepared to trade all my new deform goodness for the speed increase of stepping back a version, lol. I find that I get on average 10-12 fps out of my rigs, depending on the specific modification/optimisation... which is fine for scrubbing your motions while animating. Real time playback by just htting play would be NICE... but its not a necessity, and only getting around half realtime playback doesnt for me cause that much of a bottleneck in terms of my workflow.

I'm definitely interested in improvements to deformation. I'm curious if it's predominantly because of the introduction of joints (vs. z-bones), or something else.

I am, however surprised to hear you say that 10 - 12 fps doesn't impede your workflow. Do you end up doing a lot of preview rendering, or is there some other way that you can get a good sense of the nuances of motion without watching it in realtime?

I suppose if you checked that "play every frame" checkbox, you'd get to see the motion accurately enough, even if it's in slo-mo. I wonder if you could get used to that and work effectively that way...


In the medium/long run we might discuss about the validity of the points Maestro brings into the table, but for a short term, which is the kind of work you hire freelancers for, I think Craig´s rig will make most animators feel more "at home".


Yes. It's worth noting that Maestro was developed around the need to animate a feature length film. It was also originally developed just for me, and my way of doing things. Selling it only came about when we saw what we had.


I also think Maestro toolset remains absolutely valid and it surely is useful, but the fact that many people (i.e. my studio partners and me) find Craig´s tool as a must-buy (probably as soon as our holidays end and we get back to work) must mean something regarding the usefulness of it.

Again, I think this re-enforces the idea that neither one has to be better or worse than the other, they just serve different needs.

Eric

Netvudu
08-07-2010, 07:16 PM
I need a "keytrak" :p

silviotoledo
08-08-2010, 08:47 AM
I've used Maestro for a JOB and it's amazing. The interface is so cool!
Some maya animators friends looks at it an says WOW!


But I also got some deformation problems. Sometimes, for some reason, I can't pose the character like I want after complete spin on character. This is probably a Lightwave problem with IK that needs improvements.
The other big problem is related to deform with realistic characters wich needs aditional controllers ( and better deformers, better set of bone muscles for neck, chester... ).


The Rebel's Hill rig looks also powerfull and promissing. Specially for cartoon characters ( squash and stretch rig included ) that Maestro does not cover and it uses the new Lw tools.

Both rigging tools are the best for lightwave, I would not say one is better than other and I would dream with Newtek hiring these 2 guys to make the super lightwave rigging tools for LW 10 era.


Come on Mr. Powers Hire these great developpers! And also include Larry and his magical Ik booster rigs!


lightwave also neds some better deformers for mesh I can't understand why Newtek doesn't work with it once all the other top packages has, blender included.

Things like object Influence and spline deformes that works, clusters, automated driven keys, edge slide...


At the end, I think the big Lightwave problem is to deal with mocap. Too bad.
Mocap is not usefull for animation if you can't work on the top of it, on a layer.


One thing I also hate on an LW rig is the fact that the goals gets outside of the model to prevent pop. Can't it be fixed??


Hope to see more nice LW character animations!

silviotoledo
08-08-2010, 09:11 AM
lightwave have a lot of nice tools for everything wich is not integrated

Why does the SPLINECONTROL tool on lightwave layout does not allow more than one instance? and why does not allow use of weightmaps?

Why sock monkey can't be used as cluster deform?

Why can't effector act as a cluster deform?

Why isn't there a relationship between MUSCLE DISPLACEMENT ( T ) on bones properties and the bone rotation angle?

Why is the mapping options on MUSCLE BULGE not working according to the lenght of the bone? Almost impossible to map a texture to bulge bone the way we want.
Why isn't this texture animatable according to the bone angle rotation?

Why isn't VERTEX PAINT integrated on the modeler interface? Of course it would be better to have it on layout.

Why isn't CREATE JOINT MORPH integrated with vertex paint?

Why can't LW Weightmap airbrush used to paint color textures?


and the answer is.... CORE. Really?

MrWyatt
08-08-2010, 10:02 AM
....(bunch of good questions)...
and the answer is.... CORE. Really?

Yes. Moving on.

RebelHill
08-08-2010, 10:41 AM
the deform issues on the Meastro rig are to do with it being based on the idea of using the same rig both for deformations and controls... imo this has been one of the BIGGEST things that has hampered LWs character animation over the years... the fact that folks have tried to use combined control/deform rigs.

here's why it doesnt work...

LWs deform system is pretty good... tis very immediate and the tools available for solving deforming joints are very quick and easy to apply. The tools Im talking about are the Parent<>Child joint compensation/flex/bulge/etc. These are LWs eqivalent of clusters and flexors, and stuff like that, and they work great, and deliver really good deformations. You can tweak things quick and easy with weights, to prevent influence cross over (like legs for instance which are almost always too close together at base pose and so their bones affect both sides a bit, so u do L/R maps). And if you need a bit more, you can add a little morfing on top and tie it to a rotation to automate it in a number of ways.

All this is great... but the KEY thing to keeping deforms smooth is the comp/felx/etc deform tools.

The problem, is that they only work directly Parent<>Child... so at areas like shoulders, or hips, or anywherewe use an offset... be it an FK offset, or the everpresent IK offset that we've been using for years... that lil 2bone IK trick used at 3D joints to prevent IK gimbal lock/flipping. It breaks the Parent>Child chain... so now, in our shoulder for example... the arm bone is no longer a child of the Clavicle bone... theres a lil axis offset bone between them... so you now cant use the deform helpers at your shoulder... thats it, game over... bad deforms await... pretty much no matter what you do!!

All you've done, effectively... is take the gimbal lock problem (how co-ords are handled on the control items/bones), and exchanged it for a mesh deformation problem (how co-ords are handled for the displacement of mesh vertices). When rigging, you're effectively trying to create one set of co-ordinate based motion to control pose, and another to control deformation.

Its like having 2 separate puzzles... the solutions may be similar, but they wont be the same, and if u try to use one solution to solve both, neither answer will be completely "correct". Just close.

You can painstakingly pose test and work weights back and forth to get it just so... throw in a ton of hold bones every which way, and basically waste hours or days, at the end of which, if u got skillz, you'll get something, good, or passable, or good enough for the small range of poses needed in the given project.

But use a separate deform rig... and you change the game a lot. Cos only your control rig... which is the thing you're posing using FK/IK/Whatever with all the offsets, and gimbal filters, and single point nested hierarchies and so strung about... the deform rig only has to TARGET the shape... the pose, that the control rig is making, so u can build it without silly offsets, or anything like that, and construct it... RIG it in a way that befits the task you're trying to perform, mesh deformation... just like you design your control rig in a way that best fits that aim... pose control.

Ofc I didnt come up with this all by myself... This is just what I saw going around over the years... folks working in max and maya were often separating these things out, and got great results doing it.

Its often said that its the user and not the tool that gets the results... Ive always thought that was both true and false, and preferred to think that its what the user does with the tool that counts. Afterall, give a photographer a BnW film, and he's not gonna take many lovely colourful pics for you... but depending on how he lights, composes, etc... you may not care that theres no colour... the lack may even be used to artistic advantage.

My point is... i didnt think, Hmm... lets try changing package... I thought, Hmmm, lets try changing MY approach.

And this is nothing new... Ive been doing separated deform/control rigging, as well as other seemingly new tricks like LW native IK FK switching since back in 7.5... LW's always been able to do these things... but they have historically been a bit clunky, and this is what I think has driven this LW tradition of the standard "LW rig"... which weve all seen like a MILLION times... draw bones, add null, rest bones... yay look I got an Ik leg... and its outdated, its outmoded, and worse than irrelevent IMO as it actually HINDERS people from getting the best results both they and their too is capable of.

And as I say, this has been true for a while now, but with the new tools that were added in 9.6, making this "dual rigging" so much faster and easier... than the "traditional" way of approaching rigging doesnt just look outdated to me anymore, it looks truely primitive.

Oh this package does this... oh that package does that... etc.

Please... pretty please... before u think about changing your tool... take a little time to think about changing the way you use the one u already got.

And there you have it... more than anything if Ive tried to do anything with answering Qs on the forum, or my vids, or my rhiggit... its to try and get people to realise what they've got right there in LW, whats actually available that fixes these complaints people so often have, time, and time again.

Do of course understand... these complaints I make about LWs traditional approach to rigging, isnt meant as a bash on the Maestro rig thats rigged in that method... Christ on a bike, what Erics done over the years that he's tweaked and devved that thing has produced something that deforms like I never thought anything could with traditional methods... and as far as this traditional single rig method goes, its as good as it gets or is ever gonna get I should think. But I do believe that better deformation is possible, and much easier to accomplish with newer tools. Nor is this a bashon LWs crappy character tools... cos if u know how to use them... thy're pretty much not so crappy after all, in exactly the same way as Mayas character tools are horrific if u dont know how to use them... welcome to mis aligned joints, hierarchal scaling issues and double transforms... please tell me didnt think there was a "make good rig" button!? It is a bit of a bash on folks who bash LW, when they dont really seem to know how exactly to use LWs in the most advantageoous way, and when they then go on to sing up maya/softimage, etc... which, often, they dont actually know how to use either... I say a bit of a bash, cos its cetainly not intended in any mean way.. but cmon... we've all heard these complaints... yes, we've all seen maya.

So please, can we all just poop or get off the pot??

BTW, taht make good rig button... I hear LW has one nowadays (;

3dWannabe
08-08-2010, 11:17 AM
Great post, Craig.

I want to keep my input on this thread minimal, as it's really about your cool new tool, not a debate, but if you'll indulge me, I'd like to respond to a few of your points.

Eric

Eric - I hope you'll continue to contribute on this thread. The back and forth between the two of you is a great learning experience.

Both of you have excellent points, and ALL of us are learning a lot by this conversation between two masters of rigging who have differing viewpoints.

I have a question for both of you:

I'd been using JimmyRIG and reading with keen interest the Animeeple thread: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101917

Is there a way to take a character that has been animated with motion capture (either with JimmyRIG or Animeeple, and add/modify/extend that animation with your tools?

RebelHill
08-08-2010, 11:19 AM
Why does the SPLINECONTROL tool on lightwave layout does not allow more than one instance? and why does not allow use of weightmaps?
Why sock monkey can't be used as cluster deform?

Why can't effector act as a cluster deform?
...
Why isn't VERTEX PAINT integrated on the modeler interface? Of course it would be better to have it on layout.

Why isn't CREATE JOINT MORPH integrated with vertex paint?

Why can't LW Weightmap airbrush used to paint color textures?

They're Old. They werent intended for these purposes, for that reason some may not even be able to be adapted to do these things, whole new tools would be needed, or some may, but havent been updated in years. In either case people have learned to get on fine without using these things in these ways. New tools could be made/updated, but the present system can deliver good results, and there are bigger priorities, would be my best guess.


Why isn't there a relationship between MUSCLE DISPLACEMENT ( T ) on bones properties and the bone rotation angle?

Because this tool could also be put to other uses than just on characters, as a way to apply or move a textured displacement on, or across any mesh surface. Therefore a given user may not want there to be a relationship, therefore if you want a relationship, set one up using a gradient. There was a proton tutorial about doing this... dead easy. However also note, that using this to apply fine details (to high level SubD meshes) only works if the displacemnt order is set to FIRST... this basically renders it almost useless for character work. An fix for this would be a VERY welcome addition to LW10!!!!!!!!


Why is the mapping options on MUSCLE BULGE not working according to the lenght of the bone? Almost impossible to map a texture to bulge bone the way we want.
Why isn't this texture animatable according to the bone angle rotation?

You're not understanding what this texture function here does...

You're thinking that you apply a texture that displaces the muscle into its muscle bulge shape... Actually, its the same as any other "T" next to a % value spinner... its used to texture map the application of the effect. So if u apply a BW texture, rotate the bone... muscle bulge will be 100% applied where the texture is white, and no bulge where its black.

The bulge effect is already dependent on bone length and rotation angle, the texture simply allows mapping of the strength of this effect.

RebelHill
08-08-2010, 11:44 AM
Eric - I hope you'll continue to contribute on this thread. The back and forth between the two of you is a great learning experience.

...

Is there a way to take a character that has been animated with motion capture (either with JimmyRIG or Animeeple, and add/modify/extend that animation with your tools?

Yes, I agree, certainly id encourage Eric and any other to spill all they gotta spill on these issues, right here gladly. I think everyone got the "RHiggit is out" message by now, pretty much all the initial FAQs have been done, so wahts left?? 5 pages of "ur plugins effing great!!Thanks."

Nah, I know its great (dont mean to sound conceited but, yknow, Im british (and from the SOUTH), so im sure y'all all forgive me my shortcomings)... But if it gets a discussion going about all these issues, then GREAT.

Im in the middle of developing this pro version... this is a really good time for me to have this convo, a really useful time. It should also be equally as useful to NT, in the middle of devving LW10 (and core to a lesser extent, since this is really about Layouts tools specifically)... that is of course, if they're actually reading any of this.?. If you're the kind to write to your Senator/MP... now may be a good time to PM you favourite NT head honcho...


....

Modify mocap with my tools... no. For modification Id go IKB personally if motionbuilder is not an option. Terrible Hand animation tool... AWESOME motion editing tool.

Extend... yes, sorta... The big problem with bringing in mocap chars is the deformations. This goes back to my previous post about using control and deform in just 1 rig... now jimmy rig seems to have this fixed to an extent with its auto weighting... but Im still guessing this is gonna be better on cartoon characters, simply based on how LW handles weights... I can see there being issues with more realistic characters... maybe not so much in completely collapsed joints, but I can see there being little in the way of "shaping", especially around shoulders and the like.

So one inclusion slated for RH pro is a deform rig that can be bolted onto any other existing control rig pretty easily.... FBX, BVH, even maestro or some other rig youve built yourself... it wont matter. As long as the controllers are working properly and the animation is "correct"... snap the deformer on, do the basic weights, and your thing'll deform as if it were rigged entirely with my setup.

Cageman
08-08-2010, 12:35 PM
Extend... yes, sorta... The big problem with bringing in mocap chars is the deformations. This goes back to my previous post about using control and deform in just 1 rig... now jimmy rig seems to have this fixed to an extent with its auto weighting... but Im still guessing this is gonna be better on cartoon characters, simply based on how LW handles weights... I can see there being issues with more realistic characters... maybe not so much in completely collapsed joints, but I can see there being little in the way of "shaping", especially around shoulders and the like.

Mocap into LW works really well if the characters are weighted properly. For lowres/cage and/or ingame characters Vertex Paint works quite well to do finer weightpainting. I would never want to use LW for tweaking MoCap since Motionbuilder does such a great job at that, so I never have to think about Control rig driving a deform rig. It is done in Motionbuilder for me. :D

That said, for characters that uses bones/joins directly as deformers without detailed weightmaps (other than "isolation" maps for legs etc), it will require additional bones/joints to be added to make up for bad deformation.

One thing though that LW doesn't have that Maya do have, is a way to straighten euler rotations. Usually these appear when doing continous rotation on an item, you constrain another item to it, and bake the result to keyframes (yes, where I work this is a HUGE deal). This might be something that seldom happen in a character rig (you know, the usual rig with torso, head, arms and legs), but it also depends on what you do. If you have a character that draws a gun from the holster, you may very well have some sort of dynamic parenting setup and it is during these transitions where things usually appears once baked. If you do not need to bake, then that is fine, as constraints in LW work in euler; it is when the result is baked to keyframes the issue appears (and that would also make PRMblur doing weird stuff in rendering).

I realise that I might have strayed somewhat off-topic here, but it is important, I think, to first and foremost say that, hey... Vertex Paint works quite well on lowres (as in ingame) or cage-objects, and that there are issues with LW when it comes to baking that may or may not have effect on what you are doing.

:)

Netvudu
08-08-2010, 12:47 PM
So one inclusion slated for RH pro is a deform rig that can be bolted onto any other existing control rig pretty easily.... FBX, BVH, even maestro or some other rig youve built yourself... it wont matter. As long as the controllers are working properly and the animation is "correct"... snap the deformer on, do the basic weights, and your thing'll deform as if it were rigged entirely with my setup.

oooooh, this sounds fantastic. I want that right now. Seriously, stop whatever you are doing. What´s all that rubbish about sleeping and eating? Just include that NOW! :D

RebelHill
08-08-2010, 01:49 PM
Mocap into LW works really well if the characters are weighted properly. For lowres/cage and/or ingame characters Vertex Paint works quite well to do finer weightpainting. I would never want to use LW for tweaking MoCap since Motionbuilder does such a great job at that, so I never have to think about Control rig driving a deform rig. It is done in Motionbuilder for me. :D

That said, for characters that uses bones/joins directly as deformers without detailed weightmaps (other than "isolation" maps for legs etc), it will require additional bones/joints to be added to make up for bad deformation.

One thing though that LW doesn't have that Maya do have, is a way to straighten euler rotations. Usually these appear when doing continous rotation on an item, you constrain another item to it, and bake the result to keyframes (yes, where I work this is a HUGE deal). This might be something that seldom happen in a character rig (you know, the usual rig with torso, head, arms and legs), but it also depends on what you do. If you have a character that draws a gun from the holster, you may very well have some sort of dynamic parenting setup and it is during these transitions where things usually appears once baked. If you do not need to bake, then that is fine, as constraints in LW work in euler; it is when the result is baked to keyframes the issue appears (and that would also make PRMblur doing weird stuff in rendering).

I realise that I might have strayed somewhat off-topic here, but it is important, I think, to first and foremost say that, hey... Vertex Paint works quite well on lowres (as in ingame) or cage-objects, and that there are issues with LW when it comes to baking that may or may not have effect on what you are doing.

:)

Yes... subframe clean up and maya's euler filter, Ive come up against the same thing in games before, as well as rednered anim. There was a free plugin to do basically what mayas euler filter does, detect and reflip 180 flips on H and B. Theres also ways to do it manually that arent too time consuming.

As for the deforms thing, MBs absolute weights, and detailed weights work reasonably well in LW... but whilst you can get them to give clean deformation, getting that element of "shaping" is much harder.

And not true about the joints needing lots of hold bones with just a couple of isolation maps... check the deform rig on RHiggit... very few hold bones... and some are kind of optional, the ony ones that are needed are the ones in the head, and the automated 4 for underarms and pelvis.

nickdigital
08-08-2010, 02:14 PM
For Maestro and RHiggit...is the rig just what's already in LW or is there a lot of custom under the hood customization/coding/scripting on your guy's part?

dballesg
08-08-2010, 03:15 PM
For Maestro and RHiggit...is the rig just what's already in LW or is there a lot of custom under the hood customization/coding/scripting on your guy's part?

Maestro uses a LW standard rig. But it uses LScript to apply it to your characteres. So basically you adapt the skelegons of the original rig provided (and weightmaps if needed), load the object in Layout, open Maestro, press one button, wait a few seconds and you have your character rigged.

David

ericsmith
08-08-2010, 03:23 PM
For Maestro, it's all native LW. We did create a plugin for hipcentering, but it still puts standard keyframes on standard items.

It's more of an "animation assistant" so to speak. Instead of always keeping the hips centered between the feet live, it instead detects when one of the feet moves, and then moves the hips half the distance on the same vector, as well as lowering it to compensate for the distance. What this means is that it's not in any way overriding manual control. I found early on that if I used expressions for hip centering, the motion seemed kind of stilted, and I always ended up placing manual keyframes after the fact and then turning off the hipcenter expressions. Now, the final result is keyframed curves, which you can easily adjust in time or space, it just does the mundane work for you. The thing is, when the hips don't autocenter, there's a lot of back and forth, because you first move the foot, then you have to move the hips, and once you get the hips closer, you usually realize that the foot isn't exactly where it should be for a good natural pose. So you have to keep going back and forth, tweaking both, to get it right. Automation eliminates a lot of that back and fourth, but can be too rigid and confining. Our solution gives the best of both.

It's an idea that I think could be really useful in other areas as well, but I haven't quite figured out an appropriate application yet.

Eric

Cageman
08-08-2010, 03:56 PM
And not true about the joints needing lots of hold bones with just a couple of isolation maps...

I didn't say that... I said, and I quote myself:

"That said, for characters that uses bones/joins directly as deformers without detailed weightmaps (other than "isolation" maps for legs etc), it will require additional bones/joints to be added to make up for bad deformation."

Not "lots", but "additional".. HUGE difference. :D

h2oStudios
08-08-2010, 05:37 PM
For Maestro and RHiggit...is the rig just what's already in LW or is there a lot of custom under the hood customization/coding/scripting on your guy's part?

I'm not all that familiar with Maestro as I've never used it. But I have used RHiggit Lite as I was testing it before it's release. The Rig itself is all native LW.

Which, for that matter, is very well done (as I rig myself I think I could say that ;) ). And, honestly, what was probably the biggest "Oh, wow" for me during testing was how good the deforms are straight off the bat. During one test I took a Mesh straight out of MakeHuman (which I must admit are rather heavy poly'ed models and a bit daunting) and had it rigged and deforming very well in less than half an hour.

I think Craig really knows what he's doing. And honestly, many of his methods of doing things have become standard in my Rigging workflow back since he gave us Jerico. As far as I know he's also an animator, so he understands the needs for certain things - How many people have seen that consolidated foot setup before his (saving a sh*t load of hassle in the graphs)?? I take it either none or not many.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

nickdigital
08-08-2010, 05:50 PM
Yeah, we have Craig's tutorials and they are very impressive. Big kudos go out to Craig and Eric for really putting together some fantastic tools. Also to Newtek with the constraint and joint tools in 9.6.

nickdigital
08-08-2010, 06:01 PM
For Maestro, it's all native LW. We did create a plugin for hipcentering, but it still puts standard keyframes on standard items.

It's more of an "animation assistant" so to speak. Instead of always keeping the hips centered between the feet live, it instead detects when one of the feet moves, and then moves the hips half the distance on the same vector, as well as lowering it to compensate for the distance. What this means is that it's not in any way overriding manual control. I found early on that if I used expressions for hip centering, the motion seemed kind of stilted, and I always ended up placing manual keyframes after the fact and then turning off the hipcenter expressions. Now, the final result is keyframed curves, which you can easily adjust in time or space, it just does the mundane work for you. The thing is, when the hips don't autocenter, there's a lot of back and forth, because you first move the foot, then you have to move the hips, and once you get the hips closer, you usually realize that the foot isn't exactly where it should be for a good natural pose. So you have to keep going back and forth, tweaking both, to get it right. Automation eliminates a lot of that back and fourth, but can be too rigid and confining. Our solution gives the best of both.

It's an idea that I think could be really useful in other areas as well, but I haven't quite figured out an appropriate application yet.

Eric

How does Maestro work with multiple rigs(characters)? Is it just an issue of renaming items/bones?

On a related question, I'm curious how Craig and Eric, or anyone else really, deal with multiple characters in a scene. I animate characters in their own scene and then combine them all at the end. If there's interaction then obviously you'll need all the necessary assets in a single file. But I find isolating what I need to work on really helps not only LW performance but what you need to sort through in a file.

ericsmith
08-08-2010, 11:50 PM
How does Maestro work with multiple rigs(characters)? Is it just an issue of renaming items/bones?

We actually flushed this out pretty well from the get-go. Every control object in the rig starts with the name of the character being rigged. This means that multiple characters can be rigged in the same scene without any conflicts. Beyond that, we do this thing that allows Maestro to easily search and replace one name to another based on the active interface pane. So this means I can animate one character, save out a pose or motion for any of all of it, and then just go to an interface pane for another character, load the pose or motion, and it will automatically apply it to the character associated with the current interface pane.

The funny thing is, this system was developed early on, and since then I, like you, have discovered the benefits of working one character per scene and assembling them all together using MDD scans. If I'd known that from the beginning, we may not have worked so hard to sort out multi-character rigging.

I'm glad it worked out the way it did, however, because of the side benefit of being able to apply animation or poses from one character to another, among other things of the like.

Also, the project I'm working on now has somewhat simpler characters and rigs, and running two characters in a scene is still real-time, and for background characters, I can comfortably get four characters rigged in the same scene. It saves a lot of scene setup overhead doubling up like that, and it does make the multi-character interaction issue nothing to worry about.

Eric

LW_Will
08-09-2010, 02:05 AM
here's why it doesnt work...
{SNIP}

... yes, we've all seen maya.

So please, can we all just poop or get off the pot??

BTW, that make good rig button... I hear LW has one nowadays (;

BRA - Frakking - VO, Dude... Thanks for finally putting my opinion into words.

Learn the software, not the wish list.

Thanks.

LW_Will
08-09-2010, 02:09 AM
How does Maestro work with multiple rigs(characters)? Is it just an issue of renaming items/bones?

On a related question, I'm curious how Craig and Eric, or anyone else really, deal with multiple characters in a scene. I animate characters in their own scene and then combine them all at the end. If there's interaction then obviously you'll need all the necessary assets in a single file. But I find isolating what I need to work on really helps not only LW performance but what you need to sort through in a file.

You know, 2D animators often work with only one character. The theory of doing one character is a modern technique in animation.

I'm just sayin'... ;-)

khan973
08-09-2010, 03:47 AM
RHiggit is awesome! A cleaner Schematic view would be muuuuch appreciated and also changing the colors depensing on Right / Left Side.
I'll do some tests with my characters soon

nickdigital
08-09-2010, 06:03 AM
You know, 2D animators often work with only one character. The theory of doing one character is a modern technique in animation.

I'm just sayin'... ;-)

True, but a 2d animator doesn't have to deal with slow feedback if he does have to draw more than one character on a page. :)

RebelHill
08-09-2010, 11:16 AM
So some of this stuff...

Cageman, sorry, I think I misread what u wrote somehow, or misinterpreted.

As for how native it all is. rhiggit is compltely native, the rig itself requires no plugins or clever code or anything. Ive been working a good while on a modular design of rig that be taken apart, have its proportions adjusted and then put back together for quite a while, and for a good while now this is how ive been doing work, taking an existing rig I have, and reattatching it to a new mesh.

So the LScripts that rhiggit uses are really just macros that turn a whole bunch of constraints, positions, tracks, targets, etc, etc on and off, or point/attatch them to differnt things to switch between the setup and rig modes. This is nothing that you cant do yourself... you could download my RH Adam rig, and quite happily fit it into a new mesh, jsut like rhiggit does by moving and aligning all the parts and scripted actions manually. its only about 1000 clicks and checks and changes you have to make each way. if you can memorise the entire process, perfectly and with every control, or link applied in order, and could just click, click, click... you could probably do it in about 2-3 hours. I built the thing, and even I cant remember every little bit, and have had to work trough it methodically, testing and bug checking as I go.. takes me about a day to day and 1/2 to transfer a full rig this way.

Anyone can learn ofc, how to make a simple cript that alters constraints on objects, etc in about 5 mins flat... so the scripts themselves arent even the clever part of rhiggit.

The clever part... teh CUSTOM part is the rig itself... its not just a good rig I went and built to do all this stuff, slapping each control system on as I went... its been very carefully thought out and tested, every last controller having its position and function designed precisly to allow for refitting of the rig. Rotation orders have been worked over to get the best possible combinations of results, and so on. Different tricks (IK/FK switching, squash n stretch) have different ways of being done in LW... some solutions work better for some situations than others... some solutions play nicer alongside other systems elsewhere in the rig... so combinations, and interractions between systems work in the most efficent way, and deliver the most reliable outcomes, and so on.

So the applying one rig to another is not really that special, anyone can do it if they know which pieces to move where... making the scripts to do it all for u in minutes rather than hours or days is pretty far off from rocket science, and I dont really think of my putting those together as any REAL programming or devving.

But designing and developing the rig that all of this stuff operates on... all those intricacies... could anyone do that themselves with out the box LW... sure thing... but making this rig has taken me months of work, and YEARS of experience.

As for the multiple characters thing... theres a 2 part answer... Fist, yes u can have multipples of my rig in a scene. Like Maestro everything is named with a default name... objects, bones, expressions... EVRYTHING has the name in it to prevent ANY conflicts. All you have to do to change the default name in every part of the rig scene file is use the replace funtion of just about any text editor as demo'd in the setup guide.

As for the performance thing with multiples, and this kinda comes back to Erics question about workflow and frame rate I didnt answer yet.

Like any rig in LW, as you add additional rigs to a scene, LWs performance will drop off... exponentially too. Get 2 rigs in a scene things run at less than half speed of one rig, 3 rigs way less than 1/3 speed, and by the time you get to 4 rigs, christ the drop off is ENOURMOUS. There's definately some bugs in LWs handling of stuff (for those minded to investigate check things like the frame rate difference between a whole bunch of items/bones in a scene, and the difference when those items bones are parented into a hierarchy... there's other stuff Ive found too).

So how do i handle it. Well first the framerate point. As long as I can get minimum 8-10 fps outta my scene, Im happy. how is it that the non realtime performance doesnt interrupt my flow... well, cos Im not working at realtime I guess.

I tend to follow a more traditional approach to animation myself. I tend to work on two main things, the timing, and spacing. Now I work pose to pose, with stepped keys initially most of the time... so keys are usually several frames apart. This is where I lay down my timing, and where I want realtime playback. but since the keys are quite wide apart, having less than a realtime frame rate makes no difference, as i dont have keys, or a change of pose happening every frame, and using the playback at full speed option works fine.

Once I get into tweening, and I start to switch down to linear or curves... Im no longer working on the timing of my piece, I should have that sorted by now. What matters now is the detail and nuance of the individual movements... which are spaced across just a few frames each for the most part. What I want to be able to do here is scrub back and forth, just like the old way of drawn animating by lacing sheets between ur fingers, and flipping/rolling them. Hand drawn animators didnt have realtime feedback, and they didnt really need it when getting into the finer detail of the animation... you're watching for smoothness of transition, ease in and out, arcs, etc. And these things aren as easily seen at realtime rates, so u work on them using a nice easy back and forth scrub at less than realtime to get things looking nice pose by pose, move by move, and then periodically plyback the whole thing at realtime to give it a once over... check that your spacing are working well with your timings, and that during the detail animation you havent started underselling stuff, or overacting, and the like. This isnt MY way by a long shot ofc... its the way of the old masters, and its a method thats been tried and tested over decades of animation production. new tricks, toys and stuff that can be done within a CG environment are cool n all, but can only ever really be lil workflow layers existing on top of the fundamental principles and practices.

As for when multiple characters crash my frame rate beyond a workable level, then i too go for putting characters into separate scene files. Though I will usually have an extra file with them both in, and simply corss load keyframes between the different scenes. So ive got 3 scenes, charA, charB, and charsA+B... I animate ach char in his own scene, then copy the keys over to the A+B and see how things look. if i need to make character interraction adjustments I do it there, then send the keys back over to the individual scenes. Atm I do this using a combination of multimotionGN, and the load from scene motion envelopes only. Sadly, there also a bug in LFS motion load, that causes it to break any blended (sai) envelopes applied to things, effectively breaking the rig (hence the use of multimotion). If this could get fixed, itd make switching back between scenes in this manner a 2-3 click fast process, and would make the performance issues of multi characters in LW pretty much a non issue.

ooh, and Khan... http://rebelhill.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=54&p=208&sid=327addeb4d84d08a2466dce5328a8e3f#p208

nickdigital
08-09-2010, 11:29 AM
Thanks for the input. Slow feedback is definitely a pain.

It would also be nice if sliders would auto-hide. Sometimes the interface starts to get really crowded with all those floating sliders.

It would be nice if scenes could be referenced. There are scripts that allow for this but there's a lot of upfront work.

nickdigital
08-09-2010, 02:14 PM
With RHiggit can you setup a rig that is just the animation controls, not the deform controls too. This way an animator can just work with a scene that is just animation controls and then export out the appropriate motion files onto a scene that has both the animation and deform rig.

I'm pretty sure this is how it's done in Maya. An animator works on a stripped down scene and then animation is passed down through TD's for final rendering.

Would this help speed up performance in LW?

Ernest
08-09-2010, 05:16 PM
You should let Flay know that it has been released.

LW_Will
08-09-2010, 09:00 PM
True, but a 2d animator doesn't have to deal with slow feedback if he does have to draw more than one character on a page. :)

True... but that would be NO movement on the page, right? ;-)

geo_n
08-09-2010, 09:15 PM
I just tried the demo. Looks great. Any ETA on the pro version? Would be interested how fast the rigs move with multiple characters on screen.

If anyone missed this stretchy rig tutorial from the Scientist(Kurt Smith, any relation to Eric Smith?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojLLRJXdHs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MchAR_mxeGs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1yhGcSVoy8

Is this approach similar to the maya stretchy rigs and also what is being worked on the maestro stretchy rigs.

geo_n
08-09-2010, 09:23 PM
ooh, and Khan... http://rebelhill.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=54&p=208&sid=327addeb4d84d08a2466dce5328a8e3f#p208

Would an item picker be a fix for this issue or even considered for future release. When I did open the schematic view it was a mess. Picking in the viewport with a tablet is a no no for me.

nickdigital
08-09-2010, 09:31 PM
True... but that would be NO movement on the page, right? ;-)

Heh, I was thinking more along the lines of the animator is only restricted by the speed of his pencil and how fast he flips pages. I'm old school. :D

Cageman
08-09-2010, 10:11 PM
As for when multiple characters crash my frame rate beyond a workable level, then i too go for putting characters into separate scene files. Though I will usually have an extra file with them both in, and simply corss load keyframes between the different scenes. So ive got 3 scenes, charA, charB, and charsA+B... I animate ach char in his own scene, then copy the keys over to the A+B and see how things look. if i need to make character interraction adjustments I do it there, then send the keys back over to the individual scenes. Atm I do this using a combination of multimotionGN, and the load from scene motion envelopes only. Sadly, there also a bug in LFS motion load, that causes it to break any blended (sai) envelopes applied to things, effectively breaking the rig (hence the use of multimotion). If this could get fixed, itd make switching back between scenes in this manner a 2-3 click fast process, and would make the performance issues of multi characters in LW pretty much a non issue.

One thing that I would like to add to this workflow is the use of ClothFX or MD_Plug MDDs to bring Character A or B into either scene. Since both ClothFX and MD_Plug can load the complete MDD into RAM, it streams very fast with very little impact on speed. This way I've managed to have 10-20 characters in a single scene, of which just one is having the bones so timing and adjustments could be made within a visual context of the rest of the charaters.

:)

Philbert
08-09-2010, 11:07 PM
Heh, I was thinking more along the lines of the animator is only restricted by the speed of his pencil and how fast he flips pages. I'm old school. :D

Gaah! You're bringing back dreaded memories of animation school with mountains of paper on light boxes! :cursin:

LW_Will
08-09-2010, 11:45 PM
Heh, I was thinking more along the lines of the animator is only restricted by the speed of his pencil and how fast he flips pages. I'm old school. :D

Touche, sir.

Our tools have limits. As those limits improve, as in LW10, we get better.

RebelHill
08-10-2010, 08:15 AM
Right...

Setup just animation controls... sure, just select the deform rig parent null and clear the entire deform rig in 2 click leaving u with jsut the cotnrol rig. This increases performance a lot, but of course contains no deformers, so you would probs cut ur model in parts on layers, and parent them off to the animation controllers to give yourself a proxy rig for bulk animation, importing the animation data over to the full deforming versions for finishing.

This of course works well for multiple characters too. As for performance of multiple (1 or 2) characters, with and wothout the deform setup, here's my scores on my vaio laptop... core2duo 2.4, Nvid 9300M.

Basic biped, X1=10fps, X2=3fps. Proxy mode (deforms removed) X1=22fps, X2=8fps
Raw biped, X1=16fps, X2=4.5fps. Proxy mode, X1=33fps, X2=20fps.

And that stretchy setup is the same one I demonstrate in RHR, I think Maestro is going for actually scaling the bones rather than Zpositioning them, and as for maya, it gets done both ways... with the debate still going on about which is best.

As for an ETA on pro, or the idea of a character panel... neither atm. Pro will be a few weeks whilst I iron things out, and also do experimentation to see if things Id like to include can actually be built the way Id need them to be. As for the charavter panel, Im that into coding to start doing inerface type stuff, etc yet. if i slide more into that sorta thing then maybe for some future thing, but no plans.

nickdigital
08-10-2010, 10:03 AM
Right...

Setup just animation controls... sure, just select the deform rig parent null and clear the entire deform rig in 2 click leaving u with jsut the cotnrol rig. This increases performance a lot, but of course contains no deformers, so you would probs cut ur model in parts on layers, and parent them off to the animation controllers to give yourself a proxy rig for bulk animation, importing the animation data over to the full deforming versions for finishing.

This of course works well for multiple characters too. As for performance of multiple (1 or 2) characters, with and wothout the deform setup, here's my scores on my vaio laptop... core2duo 2.4, Nvid 9300M.

Basic biped, X1=10fps, X2=3fps. Proxy mode (deforms removed) X1=22fps, X2=8fps
Raw biped, X1=16fps, X2=4.5fps. Proxy mode, X1=33fps, X2=20fps.


Great information. I also notice that your rigs controls are all item based. No switching back and forth between nulls and bones which is a pain because you can't have both loaded up in GE. Using the MultiMotion script would make transferring animation data around really easy.

phillydee
08-10-2010, 04:01 PM
First things first, thanks a lot for the time spent on this tool. Been fiddling with the demo for a few hours already.

Question: Do I need to have "Auto Key Create" turned off while the setup script runs? Also, IK doesn't exist in the arms in the demo right? (just makin' sure... oh boy here comes the RTFM heat!)

again, thanks for this awesomeness!
:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

RebelHill
08-10-2010, 04:18 PM
Nope, you can leave autokey on... in fact I usually do. Dont think Ive turned autokey off for years. And yes, no Ik arms, legs only.

lreyes
08-11-2010, 01:20 AM
Unless I am having a senior moment, I see that RHiggit_demo_rb is not a download file. I am downloading rhrfreezip now and also lite_guide is the demo trail on the rhrfreezip??? Is this a plug in to Lightwave or a seperate application?

khan973
08-11-2010, 03:28 AM
Hi, I've spent my last night on it, so I'd like to share:

Rebelhill, let me know if you're interested, I can send you my scene so you can update the one you sell, I think it can help people and make them go faster (for those who use Schematic).

If you have an idea on how applying it to the Raw one, it would help a lot...

Enjoy
http://www.555lab.com/khan/Divers/Rhiggit_Khan-Schematic.JPG
From Left to right:
SETUP MARKERS
CONTROL RIG
IK CONTROL RIG
DEFORMING RIG
The horizontal disposal allow you to pan from one to an other without de-zooming.

silviotoledo
08-11-2010, 08:50 AM
I used RHiggit rig on this quick animation test.
It took only 15 minutes to be completed.

Thanks Rebell for applying RHiggit to this guy.

The character is the HULK mesh from great LW artist Maurocor in wich I worked over to match another character.

The constrols and solvers are nice and animator friendly! Great Tool!
I will try extreme poses next time.

The mesh is too dense, what makes the deform a bit difficult to control in some extreme areas while deformed by the bones without weightmaps corrections. Some areas still need fixes.


The low poly mesh deforms nicelly without weights. I will try metalink from the low poly mesh to the high poly mesh and to remodel a better low poly mesh ( this low poly one was created automatic with polygon reduction in modeler ).

Hope metalink link will work the way I want.
If not, the good is to keep the low poly character and have a displacement over it!

I assume it's an error to use high poly meshes on lightwave. The corrective morph solutions, still needed for some areas in realistic characters will not work well in dense meshes. Doing corrective morphs on modeler still gets a lot of errors and it seems that simplified tool from the japanese guy ( sorry, forgot the name now ) is a good solution in layout, if the geometry is not heavy!

pooby
08-11-2010, 09:04 AM
I like the miraculous muscle-toning effect that walk has.

I'm going to try it tonight and get ripped!

erikals
08-11-2010, 09:05 AM
Silvio, you might want to use a displacement map instead,
i always recommend that, it makes better deformations,
and is much faster to animate when you crank down the SubDivisions in the OpenGL view.

it is also infinitely much easier to make morphs.

not sure if this would work, but you could try this method to make the displacement map
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7fINI4DpeI

erikals
08-11-2010, 09:10 AM
in some cases you might want to create a Vector Displacement Map instead,

what is a Vector Displacement Map?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJJQaQDRkG8
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150SP1/examples_displacement.htm

silviotoledo
08-11-2010, 10:47 AM
Thanks erikals

I'm familiar with displacement and vector maps, but I'm not familiarized with that hell node thing to displace on lightwave yet!

I did a muscle test now.

MUSCLE SCENE ATTACHED
Move timeline to see the effect!

What I want is to have a complete displacement map apllyed to the character's UV that will simulate all the muscle deforms and will be automatically activated by the bones rotations filtered by weightmaps.

In theory this is working on this sample I attached, but there's not an image map applyed yet.

Actualy this tech will work very well with endomorphs instead of diaplacement maps.

I've applyed image maps instead of gradients, but it did not show the micro details I want.
Maybe I should try on Displacement PANEL, but I really hate the way nodes is used to displace and I didn't understand it yet. Why a lot of nodes combination for add and subtract instead of only one DISPLACEMENT node that works? Oh my god, newtek needs to simplify process not to confuse us.



Select FOREARM bone and see bone properties - PARENTAL MUSCLE BULGE

I had to write an expression, so I was able to control the amount of bulge with the amount of bone rotation automatically once there's no link on lightwave itself. The expression works fine!

silviotoledo
08-11-2010, 11:55 AM
moved the discussion about muscles to here:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1046974#post1046974


so we continue on RHiggit here :)
but of course it would be nice to have automated setup for muscles on the rig tools on the future.

nickdigital
08-12-2010, 09:36 AM
Can you add/remove limbs from a rig? Say you have a Shiva type character or want to add/remove fingers.

Is this something that'll be available in the Pro version?

RebelHill
08-12-2010, 01:06 PM
Will there be some sort of auto add... no. But the rigs in both versions being all native can be extended as much as desired. A character pack is a possibility at a later date, with different "parts" that can be repositioned, and bolted onto rigs... but plenty other priorities to sort through first.

phillydee
08-12-2010, 01:21 PM
hey RH do you need our HWlock ID to generate a single user licence? I ordered yesterday, but I was a donkey and I realized my paypal email address has issues with attachments. let me know... thanks

erikals
08-12-2010, 01:22 PM
quadruped. :]

khan973
08-13-2010, 06:56 AM
Centiped!
Yeah...+100

Soth
08-17-2010, 11:12 AM
Guys, how long you have been waiting for delivery of the plug-in?

phillydee
08-17-2010, 11:18 AM
Dude just hang in there, RH will get it to you. I had to wait a day or so. Doesn't hurt to contact admin [at] rebel hill dot net and give him a heads' up.

Hope that helps.

RebelHill
08-17-2010, 12:28 PM
been out today, is all done now, promise.

erikals
09-28-2010, 05:39 PM
hola,
is the Pro version available?

3dWannabe
09-28-2010, 06:34 PM
hola,
is the Pro version available?

Yes, please drop everything else in life and bring out the Pro version!!!

Now that you've got us hooked (you really have designed something cool - I want it!), we're like junkies wanting our fix!!!

erikals
09-28-2010, 07:28 PM
Yes, please drop everything else in life and bring out the Pro version!!!

best request i heard all day :]

drako
10-05-2010, 02:28 AM
Just bought the RHiggit yesterday and i want to say that i was waiting only 2 hours to download it...Now i can see the difference with the Maestro that i have in real production.But i have to admit that they are the best autoriggers for Lightwave ever..

G-Man
10-05-2010, 08:14 AM
Rebel Hill, the new product looks great! I have one question:

Project Messiah has a mode called "Animate Immediate" check the bottom middle of the page here if you haven't seen it http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/videos.html

It looks like this would be a nice feature to have when posing meshes etc.

I don't do a lot of character animation but have played around with this mode in Messiah and it feels very natural instead of having to pick the control then move.

Just curious of your thoughts as you have WAY more experience than me with rigging and characters.

Thanks,
Gary

jasonwestmas
10-05-2010, 09:02 AM
"Because this tool could also be put to other uses than just on characters, as a way to apply or move a textured displacement on, or across any mesh surface. Therefore a given user may not want there to be a relationship, therefore if you want a relationship, set one up using a gradient. There was a proton tutorial about doing this... dead easy. However also note, that using this to apply fine details (to high level SubD meshes) only works if the displacemnt order is set to FIRST... this basically renders it almost useless for character work. An fix for this would be a VERY welcome addition to LW10!!!!!!!!"

Really? The displacement doesn't work with the "After Bones" order?

3dWannabe
10-05-2010, 09:30 AM
Just bought the RHiggit yesterday and i want to say that i was waiting only 2 hours to download it...Now i can see the difference with the Maestro that i have in real production.But i have to admit that they are the best autoriggers for Lightwave ever..

I'd love to hear a your comparison of the two products once you get up to speed!!!

Of course, I expect that will change a bit with RHiggit Pro.

3dWannabe
10-05-2010, 09:43 AM
"Because this tool could also be put to other uses than just on characters, as a way to apply or move a textured displacement on, or across any mesh surface.

I watched the 'making of' for Suck last night, and in one practical stop motion shot, they used a sheet of black reflective garbage bag plastic, moved just a bit, to give the effect of a river or a lake.

And, I wondered if this could kind of technique could be used in lightwave for a lake or river surface (if Turbulence doesn't bring out its water plug-in soon).

drako
10-06-2010, 02:53 AM
ok guys the RHiggit is just amazing and now i make some tests with some characters i have.I still waiting the RHiggit Pro.Maybe this will change all the rigging process in LightWave 10.Still we have to see more......

RebelHill
10-06-2010, 07:39 AM
Well, Lite changes the rigging process a LOT for LW, and pro... well, thats jsut gonna change it completely... especially for those using a mudbox/ZB pipeline for character design... most don't like to sculpt in Tpose, understandably, so the ability to just have things work in any pose or orientation is gonna totally eliminate the need to do any manual rigging on the vast majority of characters that anyone would want to use... maybe add a couple hold bones, or tweak some deform properties at most. Im really aiming to turn rigging in LW into a fire and forget kinda process.

Ok, as for the displacemtnt not working with "after bones"... thats only for the bone displacement option, not regular nodal displacement... and this is because ofc, bone displacement is applied at the same time as the bones are... so subdivision must occur before bones.

As for messiahs animate immediate... yup, thats nice alright, but tahts a feature of the actual program itself, rather than any of the rigs done in it... therefore, its not something that can be added to LW through a rigger, thats a feature for an animation system... so would have to be done via some animatin sytem plugin... or be supported directly in LW itself (most likely the latter).

And as for the progress of Pro... its still going... though it is on the backburner a lil atm as I have work on that I need to dedicate my time to, but dont fear... pro will be back on my desk again soon enough, its not just gonna vanish... promise.

Cheers all.

3dWannabe
10-06-2010, 08:02 AM
And as for the progress of Pro... its still going... though it is on the backburner a lil atm as I have work on that I need to dedicate my time to, but dont fear... pro will be back on my desk again soon enough, its not just gonna vanish... promise.

Cheers all.
As you read my words, you can feel your eyes becoming heavier, heavier.

Now, you are in a deep sleep, even though your eyes are open.

You will awaken when you read the word PRESTO, you will drop all other work, and devote your life to the Pro version. You will feel relaxed and invigorated, and forget about this posting.

You will also lose your desire for death sticks.

PRESTO!!!

erikals
10-06-2010, 08:43 AM
  
ahahaha!! http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/biggrin.gif    ...if only it would work!!  :]

  

kosmodave
10-06-2010, 03:52 PM
As you read my words, you can feel your eyes becoming heavier, heavier.

Now, you are in a deep sleep, even though your eyes are open.

You will awaken when you read the word PRESTO, you will drop all other work, and devote your life to the Pro version. You will feel relaxed and invigorated, and forget about this posting.

You will also lose your desire for death sticks.

PRESTO!!!

LOL...:D

I'm really looking forward to the pro version, reckon it's going to be huge.

Dave

Mr Rid
10-06-2010, 07:38 PM
...
Project Messiah has a mode called "Animate Immediate" check the bottom middle of the page here if you haven't seen it http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/videos.html

It looks like this would be a nice feature to have when posing meshes etc....
Gary

Thats funny, Daz always had this feature. :D And if bones are overlapping under your cursor in the display, selection appropriately prefers the one closest to POV.

I always found LW's click-select clunky, and regularly just flat out not working. I click, and click, and click and it just refuses to select the damn thing I want, or it selects an item that is further away from the area I am clicking than the item I want to select, or it mysteriously insists on selecting a camera that is not even viewable(?). There's also a very annoying thing when using IKboost where the whole rig or chain will jump and move slightly each time I click to select a bone, and I have to keep undoing. That cursor 'pre-select' feature is the way to go cuz you always know what you're going to get when you click.

Reminds of another useful select feature I remember seeing in Cad waaay back, where wireframe polys can appear dimmer the further they are from POV so you can better judge what you are looking at or selecting with a jumble of overlapping polys/objects.

Ryhnio
10-25-2010, 03:51 PM
Hey IT Crowd Fans!

I am having an issue! When loading RH's test scenes into LW I get ballooned bones!

Please advise!

-RY

Philbert
10-25-2010, 04:02 PM
I am having an issue! When loading RH's test scenes into LW I get ballooned bones!



This is a LightWave setting not related directly to Rhiggit. Look at the Display options (D key) and the Handles & Icons tab, check the box for auto-size bones. You can also adjust the bone size right above that, mine is set to 70.

http://content.screencast.com/users/philnolan3d/folders/Jing/media/bd7eb786-d3c2-4774-9c08-792ec6a935dc/2010-10-25_1757.png

geo_n
12-03-2010, 08:24 AM
So since lw 10 will be released this q4, just wondering if rhiggit users have any issues with the plugin seeing this might be the only autorigger that works with lw 10.

erikals
12-03-2010, 08:41 AM
any progress by the way?... been waiting for this lill' plug... http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/hammer.gif
 

RebelHill
12-03-2010, 10:01 AM
Well...

RHiggit works fine for the most part in LW10, but the last couple builds seem to have caused a couple issues, mainly to do with performance rather than actually breaking anything.

As for where Pro's all at... had other things keeping me busy ehre, and got a couple things coming up too for the next couple weeks, so release will probs be after LW10 comes out, which should also allow me to do any final tweaks that may be needed to get the best out of it with the final version of 10.

Now if I can jsut find the time to get some bug reports in before next week, maybe NT can help to fix some of the issues that have presented themselves...

hope, hope.

phillydee
12-03-2010, 10:23 AM
Thanks for the update RH. I'm excited to get the RHigger duurty in LW10...

wesleycorgi
12-03-2010, 10:40 AM
I'm using RHiggit Lite with LW10, but just with simple poses. So I am not hitting any performance issues necessarily.

Not directly related to RH lite, I am finding it maddening trying to click on the right object, bone, etc. (as mentioned above). Or selecting an item thinking I can then transform, but it then decides to select another object. But that's a LW thing. Other apps seem to handle this better.

Philbert
12-03-2010, 10:42 AM
I had the demo sitting around here waiting for me to finish my current character. Since it's finally done I started looking at it again only to find that the character has to be modeled in a T pose, my character's arms are not horizontal they're pointing down and to the sides at a 45 degree angle. Unfortunately I think it wold be a challenge to repose then due to shoulder pads. Oh well, perhaps on the next character.

jasonwestmas
12-03-2010, 11:40 AM
I had the demo sitting around here waiting for me to finish my current character. Since it's finally done I started looking at it again only to find that the character has to be modeled in a T pose, my character's arms are not horizontal they're pointing down and to the sides at a 45 degree angle. Unfortunately I think it wold be a challenge to repose then due to shoulder pads. Oh well, perhaps on the next character.

Rhiggit Pro will work better for this.

Philbert
12-03-2010, 12:27 PM
That sounds promising.

cresshead
12-03-2010, 05:30 PM
.

Reminds of another useful select feature I remember seeing in Cad waaay back, where wireframe polys can appear dimmer the further they are from POV so you can better judge what you are looking at or selecting with a jumble of overlapping polys/objects.

you mean like Bryce 2? :) back in 1997-8

geo_n
12-03-2010, 08:19 PM
I'm using RHiggit Lite with LW10, but just with simple poses. So I am not hitting any performance issues necessarily.

Not directly related to RH lite, I am finding it maddening trying to click on the right object, bone, etc. (as mentioned above). Or selecting an item thinking I can then transform, but it then decides to select another object. But that's a LW thing. Other apps seem to handle this better.

Ah definitely a lw issue. I guess I have to go back to using a mouse. 100x more hellish to select with tablets on controllers and 10x slower using mmb on the pen first before selecting.
Why lw selects a light or a camera when I'm trying to select a controller or bone I'll never know :D:D

Cageman
12-03-2010, 08:42 PM
Thats funny, Daz always had this feature. :D And if bones are overlapping under your cursor in the display, selection appropriately prefers the one closest to POV.

I always found LW's click-select clunky, and regularly just flat out not working. I click, and click, and click and it just refuses to select the damn thing I want, or it selects an item that is further away from the area I am clicking than the item I want to select, or it mysteriously insists on selecting a camera that is not even viewable(?). There's also a very annoying thing when using IKboost where the whole rig or chain will jump and move slightly each time I click to select a bone, and I have to keep undoing. That cursor 'pre-select' feature is the way to go cuz you always know what you're going to get when you click.

I agree... LWs viewport selectionsystem is quite "out there" if you ask me.

However, a nice "trick" that you can use to select stuff without moving things is to use MMB instead of LMB. Yes... I still have LMB setup as my selection mousebutton in Preferences, but MMB does the same thing, apparently, but, with the added benefit that you will never move things if you happen to slide the mouse at the same time you select (which happens ALL the time when using LMB).

Oh well... :)

Cageman
12-03-2010, 08:48 PM
Why lw selects a light or a camera when I'm trying to select a controller or bone I'll never know :D:D

This is obviously not a solution to the problem, but by preparing a scene for the task at hand will make things smoother. So, lock everything you never want to select when doing animation. I usually lock all objects, bones, lights and cameras that I know I never want to select.

I also divide things into specific tasks which means I seldom or never animate in the same scene I do lighting/shading/rendering.

Philbert
12-03-2010, 08:51 PM
However, a nice "trick" that you can use to select stuff without moving things is to use MMB instead of LMB.

Yes I like MMB because you can make a selection with LMB, but then if you need more you can just use MMB to select more without having to reach for the Shift key. Yeah I'm lazy like that.

erikals
12-03-2010, 09:24 PM
hm, maybe someone could write a plugin to lock unlock a list of cameras /lights /objects fast.
(by pressing a shortcut)

Mr Rid
12-04-2010, 04:15 AM
I think the solution is to take a hint from some other apps that handle selection more efficiently, since its something you have to do a thousand times a day.

Fun morph selection-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEptb8qQQ3o&feature=related

mav3rick
12-04-2010, 04:42 AM
Well...

RHiggit works fine for the most part in LW10, but the last couple builds seem to have caused a couple issues, mainly to do with performance rather than actually breaking anything.

As for where Pro's all at... had other things keeping me busy ehre, and got a couple things coming up too for the next couple weeks, so release will probs be after LW10 comes out, which should also allow me to do any final tweaks that may be needed to get the best out of it with the final version of 10.

Now if I can jsut find the time to get some bug reports in before next week, maybe NT can help to fix some of the issues that have presented themselves...

hope, hope.

rebel please do so.. recently i used RHIGIT in production.. i run into strange behaviour .. pressed somethin by accident (shortcut) than all the sudden scene slowed down 1000 times.. i couldnt work with.. i loaded previous scene and than continu work..... have sent newtek scene on checkout but as far i know they was not lucky to find problem.. if you want i will send you a scene....

send me PM with direct email so we can try to work this out for lw 10

Mr Rid
12-04-2010, 04:58 PM
.. pressed somethin by accident (shortcut) than all the sudden scene slowed down 1000 times.. i couldnt work with.. i loaded previous scene and than continu work..... 10

I had something like this happen with my own simple rig recently in 9.6 that I didnt get. The scene would bog way down right after adding a couple of eyeball bones that were the only bones using weights.

geo_n
12-05-2010, 07:17 AM
Any chance of users posting some stretchy characters made in rhiggit. Some cartoony animals would be cool.
Lw 10 would be gold soon. I think I'm going to pick this up. Was there any discount for buyers of the rigging dvd? :D

mav3rick
12-05-2010, 08:10 AM
I had something like this happen with my own simple rig recently in 9.6 that I didnt get. The scene would bog way down right after adding a couple of eyeball bones that were the only bones using weights.

i have sent scene to NT but so far i didnt get any feedback what caused this problem.... affects all lw versions from 9.6 , lw 10 , 32 bit or 64 bit

Philbert
01-15-2011, 12:08 AM
So I finally got around to testing out the Rhiggit Lite demo. It took me under an hour to set up, and that's with me watching the tutorial videos while working. I'm no character animation expert, but I'm very happy with how fast and easy it was to get a decent rig set up. I used a Make Human model to test.

Here's a video of my very first test, just trying to figure out what everything does:

http://youtu.be/OwCEoLc_4Mk

silviotoledo
01-16-2011, 08:12 AM
List of the great Advances in LW 9.6 to 10 :)

1o VPR
2o RHiggit
3o Turbulence 4D
4o Ocean Plugin


oh! 2o and 3o and 4o are independent :)


Hope to see the professional version soon.

and it would be so desirable the RHiggit work with mocap too.

jasonwestmas
01-16-2011, 09:33 AM
List of the great Advances in LW 9.6 to 10 :)


and it would be so desirable the RHiggit work with mocap too.

There iz the FBX version of rhiggit ya know :)

geo_n
01-17-2011, 01:59 AM
Can it rig non human characters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGGqRzGpOtk

Philbert
01-17-2011, 02:06 AM
That shouldn't be a problem, if you watch this video Craig did, he rigs a much crazier "character" near the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPNP8DkSp2A

RebelHill
01-17-2011, 04:56 AM
Piece of cake... you'd need to alter a couple of weight assignments, but aside from that... no problem.