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circleofsmoke
08-04-2010, 04:30 AM
Hi Can anyone clarify the upgrade offer?
I feel its sending out mixed messages from a marketing perspective.

495 gets you a 600 discount on another LW licence? (I personally dont need that - so can its a bit of a non-incentive)

Newtek have been pretty good with upgrades for nine but you cant bank on that, so when it says the next 5 upgrades free does it refer to 10.1, 10.2 etc or does it mean full paid upgrades ie 11 12 13 etc?

The overall impression is that they want commitment (cash) from users upfront with no clear development objectives / roadmap.


I love lightwave in general but some of the more basic tools/functions/setups seem ironically a little 2 Dimensional at times - a bit like the preset library which hasnt developed in ages - some of the presets have been there so long they're on my christmas card list :)

Any illumination is appreciated

rsfd
08-04-2010, 05:31 AM
Hi,
the pricing scheme relates to the official release of LightWave 10, which is slated to ship in Quarter 4 2010.
A full license will be US$ 1495. Upgrade from all earlier versions will be US$ 695.

Joining HC *before* official release of LW 10 is US$ 495 for upgrades (saving of US$ 200) or US$ 895 for a full license (saving US$ 600).

HC members will get next major releases of LW (probably yearly updates on the way to a unified LightWave CORE application) for US$ 495 instead of US$ 695 - but only, if they buy *each* one.
If one misses an update, HC membership will be closed and the next upgrades will be at least US$ 695 (higher, if NT raises prices in the future)
No one will get any major updates for free ;) .


The overall impression is that they want commitment (cash) from users upfront with no clear development objectives / roadmap.
That's the impression, that many users have since the whole CORE thing started.
It's just a personal decision if one buys in or not - some just do, some can afford, others prefer to know what they buy or have several open investments and just *need* to know what's in the box as they are probably better off with putting their money into another investment.

Kuzey
08-04-2010, 05:41 AM
Speaking of which, the subscription plan should be clarified...does it still exist or not. If you buy before the release of LW10, are you actually buying LW11, as I believe you are....or do you just get LW10 and that's it???


Kuzey

circleofsmoke
08-04-2010, 06:05 AM
There you go - it really isnt plain or obvious what we are being asked to sign up for

Kuzey
08-04-2010, 06:18 AM
Haha...there's a lot of things to be cleared up...yet :D

Oh yes, why close HC for new members, if they buy in after the release of LW10...that doesn't make sense to me?

I'm mean, I came up with a few cool features for Core and I'm not even in the program...they were just instant reactions to the Lino rigging demo. Locking people out of HC would mean less chances of making the program better, less beta testers etc....is there even enough Mac HC members out there??

Kuzey

Yog
08-04-2010, 06:37 AM
If you buy into Core now, you get LW-10 and all upgrades upto, but not including LW-11.

Another difference is that although bug fixes will continue to be released between major point releases to anyone with a LW-10 licence, new features will only be available to those with a "hardcore" membership. Hardcore membership will be closed upon the release of LW-10.

Other than that, it's how rsfd wrote.

circleofsmoke
08-04-2010, 06:56 AM
If you buy into Core now, you get LW-10 and all upgrades upto, but not including LW-11.

Another difference is that although bug fixes will continue to be released between major point releases to anyone with a LW-10 licence, new features will only be available to those with a "hardcore" membership. Hardcore membership will be closed upon the release of LW-10.

Other than that, it's how rsfd wrote.

I'd like to know where that information about new features comes from? I havent seen anything spelt out as clearly as that.

Personally I dont like the approach of "buy now, hurry hurry hurry, the gate is closing, last chance to board the plane, your going to be left behind!" etc. its stikes me as pretty immature marketing gimmick.

Kuzey
08-04-2010, 07:00 AM
So, they give you a sneak peek of the next version and hope you'll buy, when in theory, you bought it anyway.

If I buy LW10 in the month it's released...say December, I expect to get LW11....because, that should be released within my subscription plan...next December.

In the past, Newtek would give you a free upgrade, if you bought a current version and a new one was released a month later...it's how I remember it....the good old days.

Kuzey

circleofsmoke
08-04-2010, 07:04 AM
maybe the marketing staff defected as well as the engineers?

Kuzey
08-04-2010, 07:24 AM
Speaking of engineers, they are doing a super job.....very top notch indeed.

At one stage, I had my doubts, I thought they will create an fprime clone and leave it at that. Most of the HC members were happy for it to be a clone. I spent many pages, trying to get the message across it can be better....so much better.

I'm so happy with the direction vpr is taking now...well done engineers :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Lets hope the marketing staff kicks up a gear or two. By the looks of it, Newtek did a great job at Siggraph and hopefully they'll be able to keep up the effort.

Ps. For some reason, I keep thinking the Mac version of LW10/core is 3 months behind the PC version.

Kuzey

EmperorPete
08-04-2010, 07:27 AM
Ghh. This is puzzling the hell out of me. Do I have to buy the LW10 upgrade and HC membership? Are they separate things, or does one come with the other? WHich would be best to buy if I find I can only afford one (assuming they are separate things)? I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on 10, but I don't know what on Earth I should do...!

hrgiger
08-04-2010, 07:40 AM
I think some people aren't recognizing what an incredible value Lightwave has become when you compare it to any other app out there.

I bought CORE early for $395 knowing that I would get a year of access to hardcore as well as CORE/Lightwave 10 upon release. The release has gone over the year deadline and not only has my hardcore access been extended to the release of Lightwave 10, now it is being extended up to (but not including) the release of Lightwave 11. So basically, I'll know everything that's going to be in Lightwave 11 and will be able to use all those features along the way before I decide if I want to buy it or not whenever it's released. I've also been guaranteed the $395 upgrade price for the next 5 releases.

Now it's too late for people to get in at the $395 but for only $100 more, you get the same thing. Buying in now gets you access to Lightwave 10 beta now, Lightwave 10 upon release, and Lightwave 11 beta. You will only have to pay again if you decide to buy Lightwave 11. You will also be guaranteed the $495 upgrade price for the next 5 releases. And I think they used the words "at least" the next 5 releases so it may even be extended beyond that. So in essence, you are pre-buying Lightwave 10, but each version forward you'll have been able to play with the software before you decide to buy the next version.

If you wait until after Lightwave 10 ships, upgrades will be $695 and hardcore memberships are no longer being offered after that point. So basically, beta testers for future versions are going to be limited to the people who joined before Lightwave 10. The only people that are going to receive point upgrades (10.2, 10.5, etc....) are going to be hardcore members. So if you plan on using Lightwvae, you'd be crazy not to sign up soon before Lightwave 10 ships later this year.

Taking all that into account, you also have to consider that a Lightwave license charges no fees for support, gives you 999 render nodes per license, and allows you to transfer your license to another user at no cost. Modo in comparison I think gives you 50 nodes and they charge you $100 to transfer your license of Modo. 3DS MAX doesn't let you transfer a license at any cost and will probably sue you if you try.

Kuzey
08-04-2010, 07:42 AM
Ghh. This is puzzling the hell out of me. Do I have to buy the LW10 upgrade and HC membership? Are they separate things, or does one come with the other? WHich would be best to buy if I find I can only afford one (assuming they are separate things)? I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on 10, but I don't know what on Earth I should do...!

I would wait a bit longer for more information.

HC will be closed to those who upgrade after LW10 comes out...you do have some wiggle room until Q4 comes around :D


Kuzey

WillBellJr
08-04-2010, 07:52 AM
I don't know, I guess I'm used to Newegg and all kinds of other companies (Octane render, Filter Forge, Genetica as other examples) where you get "deals"; >invest< or buy in early to save a coupla bucks off the full prices.

I personally don't have a problem with this. I consider most of my purchases as investments anyway. Am I using Octane right now? No, 3D-Coat, noap, not all that much.

BUT, they are slowly improving and I can see the value in what the programs are becoming.

I didn't have a problem buying into CORE when it was time because I hadn't paid for a Lightwave upgrade in a long time.

For me, paying $495/yr is way cheaper than $695 or more.

Autodesk just sent me an email saying I need to pay up my $800+ by the 11th or my Softimage maintenance is up.

I really hate to, but I want to let it go this year even though I feel that now that the beginnings of ICE kinematics have been added to 2011, it may be worth sticking around just a little bit more.

This stuff is just too rich for my pocket being just a hobbyist...

I love my Lightwave, so I don't have a problem investing or going on "faith" as some of you feel with Newtek.

Newtek is one of the most artist / indie friendly companies out there, (Pixologic is another) when it comes to upgrade policies and prices - especially when compared to Maxon and Autodesk!


-Will

Kuzey
08-04-2010, 07:59 AM
If you wait until after Lightwave 10 ships, upgrades will be $695 and hardcore memberships are no longer being offered after that point. So basically, beta testers for future versions are going to be limited to the people who joined before Lightwave 10. The only people that are going to receive point upgrades (10.2, 10.5, etc....) are going to be hardcore members. So if you plan on using Lightwvae, you'd be crazy not to sign up soon before Lightwave 10 ships later this year.


To limit your potential beta testers is never a good idea. I can't see how smart it is, to have only the original 1,000 or so HC members...controlling the development for the next five years. Has no one heard of new blood...fresh eyes concept...to tackle and find problems/feature ideas?

Anyway...what's up with this 5 release/year term...will Core be a full program by then, will pricing sky rocket to $5,000 an upgrade after that?? That 5 year plan is interesting...it's kinda strange as Newtek doesn't make road maps public...sounds like a road map to me :hey:

Kuzey

jakuzaa
08-04-2010, 08:00 AM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw10.php

Scroll down to the FAQ's and all the answers are there.

EmperorPete
08-04-2010, 08:12 AM
OK... so I buy HC membership and 10 is included? Very nice. I'll be looking into that very sortly. Thanks Jakuzza. :)

blindsided
08-04-2010, 08:38 AM
I jumped on board by buying a new license and got my HC membership, thing is it expires 1 sept, but i think they are supposed to be extending it until 10 is released.
So when does my membership actually expire?
Do I need to renew before sept to carry on my HC membership, if I dont i will still get lw10, but HC membership will then be closed to me?
Do I wait for Newtek to send me an email that says, 'dont worry about your HC membership, LW 10 will be released on xxxxxx, and we will extend your membership for 6 months after that to give u plenty of time to renew, because no one likes paying for the MOT , Insurance and Tax in the same month'.

hrgiger
08-04-2010, 08:50 AM
I jumped on board by buying a new license and got my HC membership, thing is it expires 1 sept, but i think they are supposed to be extending it until 10 is released.
So when does my membership actually expire?
Do I need to renew before sept to carry on my HC membership, if I dont i will still get lw10, but HC membership will then be closed to me?
Do I wait for Newtek to send me an email that says, 'dont worry about your HC membership, LW 10 will be released on xxxxxx, and we will extend your membership for 6 months after that to give u plenty of time to renew, because no one likes paying for the MOT , Insurance and Tax in the same month'.

If you currently have a hardcore membership, you're good until Lightwave 11 ships. Which won't be for a long while. If you decide to buy Lightwave 11, you'll renew your membership at that point.

hrgiger
08-04-2010, 09:00 AM
Anyway...what's up with this 5 release/year term...will Core be a full program by then, will pricing sky rocket to $5,000 an upgrade after that?? That 5 year plan is interesting...it's kinda strange as Newtek doesn't make road maps public...sounds like a road map to me :hey:

Kuzey

I dont' think the 5 year guarantee has anything to do with roadmaps or how long it will take CORE to stand on it's own. The way it was stated to us is that it's a reward for the commitment to Lightwave.

rsfd
08-04-2010, 09:25 AM
thanks for clearing things up, hrgiger!

(I imagined that the release of LW10 would start another round for HC membership and would need a second payment - but that was because I thought, each "HC round" would include the final release, as it was once stated)

*Pete*
08-04-2010, 12:27 PM
Haha...there's a lot of things to be cleared up...yet :D

Oh yes, why close HC for new members, if they buy in after the release of LW10...that doesn't make sense to me?



i think they have more than enough in HC at the moment, and with the deal (395/495 dollar per version untill LW 15) being so generous, i doubt they can afford to have more HC'ers to spoil in the future.

Plan is obviously to keep existing HC members for the coming years and to let LW to be sold at a more realistic price in the future.


Kuzey.....join HC......NOW!!

You are already so intrested and i doubt you will quit LW any time soon....youll save a lot of money untill LW 15 is out.

*Pete*
08-04-2010, 12:32 PM
btw.....anyone noticed that its been a really, really long time since we last had a "lw is dead" thread?

Kuzey
08-04-2010, 01:13 PM
I dont' think the 5 year guarantee has anything to do with roadmaps or how long it will take CORE to stand on it's own. The way it was stated to us is that it's a reward for the commitment to Lightwave.

I just think why 5, and why not 4 or 6 or even 8...it's kinda too specific. I believe the 5 releases/years was there way before the start. Remember the siggraph contest Newtek ran a few years back...the first prize was Lightwave for 5 upgrades. It's all interesting...hehe



i think they have more than enough in HC at the moment, and with the deal (395/495 dollar per version untill LW 15) being so generous, i doubt they can afford to have more HC'ers to spoil in the future.

Plan is obviously to keep existing HC members for the coming years and to let LW to be sold at a more realistic price in the future.


Kuzey.....join HC......NOW!!

You are already so intrested and i doubt you will quit LW any time soon....youll save a lot of money untill LW 15 is out.

I'm always interested..hehe.

Actually, speaking of numbers..a full HC membership count would be great about now...broken down into groups based on OS's.

If the HC program will be closed after LW10, and there is just under 5,000 members...I would be scared for the future of LW/Core. On the other hand, if nearly everyone has joined....except me, then I can rest a little bit :hey:

Kuzey

OOZZEE
08-04-2010, 03:27 PM
not clear on something... so now LW 10 with CORE Tech, is being released in Q4... but CORE v1 is no longer being released in Q4 or are both being released at the same time ?

so the 495$ price now gets you LW10+Core Tech but not v1 of CORE ?

sorry but all of these strange rules are confusing.

Twisted_Pixel
08-04-2010, 03:45 PM
Lightwave 10 = Modeller + Layout + Core

Drocket
08-04-2010, 03:47 PM
not clear on something... so now LW 10 with CORE Tech, is being released in Q4... but CORE v1 is no longer being released in Q4 or are both being released at the same time ?

so the 495$ price now gets you LW10+Core Tech but not v1 of CORE ?

sorry but all of these strange rules are confusing.

When LW10 is released you get Core, Modeler and Lightwave (layout).

Drocket
08-04-2010, 03:52 PM
I just think why 5, and why not 4 or 6 or even 8...it's kinda too specific.

Kuzey

Kuzey, that is too funny :) by your reasoning 4, 6, 8 or any other number they used would be to specific :) I think like Steve mentioned they are just rewarding users for jumping on HC and wouldn't read to much into it.

With regards closing HC after LW10 has shipped, I would say if they needed to they could always change the rules later down the track, just because they decided to do that this time doesn't mean they will not reopen HC in the future (this is just my personal view).

geothefaust
08-04-2010, 04:05 PM
The only people that are going to receive point upgrades (10.2, 10.5, etc....) are going to be hardcore members. So if you plan on using Lightwvae, you'd be crazy not to sign up soon before Lightwave 10 ships later this year.



Is this true? Why wont people whom are not in HC get point upgrades?

Twisted_Pixel
08-04-2010, 04:10 PM
As far as I am aware, bug fixes, etc. will be passed out between major releases, but new features will be per major release. Those in HC will obviously get to beta test them as they appear.

cagey5
08-04-2010, 04:26 PM
Is this true? Why wont people whom are not in HC get point upgrades?


No it's not true.

hrgiger
08-04-2010, 08:44 PM
No it's not true.

Actually it is. Jim Plant said so himself. Bug fixes will continue to be free but as Twisted_Pixel pointed out, new features will be per major release. Newtek seems to be discontinuing the free releases between major updates, unless you are a hardcore member.

hrgiger
08-04-2010, 08:46 PM
thanks for clearing things up, hrgiger!

(I imagined that the release of LW10 would start another round for HC membership and would need a second payment - but that was because I thought, each "HC round" would include the final release, as it was once stated)

That was the way it was originally. It was only just before and during Siggraph that they set up this new pricing policy.

cagey5
08-04-2010, 11:43 PM
Actually it is. Jim Plant said so himself. Bug fixes will continue to be free but as Twisted_Pixel pointed out, new features will be per major release. Newtek seems to be discontinuing the free releases between major updates, unless you are a hardcore member.


That's all true but it isn't what you said in the original quote. Bug fixes will continue to be free and they will be released as 10.1, 10.3 etc. And new new features will be rolled into the next cardinal release.

So I stand by my statement that your quote of point releases not being free isn't accurate.

geothefaust
08-05-2010, 12:35 AM
Wow, holy .... man. That is so Autodesk like.


Let me get this straight, so... If you buy before LW10 ships, you get to be in HC which gives you point releases with features, feature upgrades and the like. But if I don't buy before LW10 ships, you only get bug fixes?


How are releases to be? How often and how much time between point releases and ordinal releases? That just seems crazy.

Cageman
08-05-2010, 01:30 AM
I believe NTs plan is to have one major release per year (which will be new features) and x number of x.x releases per year for bugfixes.

Here is what I think will happen....

When LW10 is released, there will be x number of LW10.x that are focused on bugfixes etc and these will be avaliable to everyone who has a license for LW10. During this period there will also be alpha/beta builds of LW11 where new features are introduced. These builds will only be avaliable to HC-members.

For quite some time, HC-members have been able to betatest LW10, but at the time it was called LWHC and CORE while people outside HC have been able to participate in the open beta for LW9.6.1, which is a bugfix only version. I believe this will continue to be the case, as in allowing for open betas of bugfix versions for everyone who has a license, while new versions with new features are locked to HC-members only.

hrgiger
08-05-2010, 04:56 AM
Wow, holy .... man. That is so Autodesk like.




I think that's an exaggeration but I'll grant you, it's being a little less Newtek. But as I pointed out earlier, you get so much more for your Lightwave license then what you get with an Autodesk one and it's certainly still cheaper.

As soon as Newtek starts acuiring different 3D packages and selling them seperately, cutting out base packages (like XSI foundation), sueing people for trying to sell their licenses, charging subscription fees(and no, hardcore is not a subscription per se as you get the software included in that price)and charging prices that in most cases only professionals can afford, then I'll be the first to agree with you.

The bottom line is that you still have an opportunity to get in on the new releases if you choose to take advantage of it.

And yes I know that XSI foundation was cut before AD acquired them but I still think it was a condition of the acquisition. And AD didn't exactly reverse that decision either did they?

hrgiger
08-05-2010, 05:02 AM
That's all true but it isn't what you said in the original quote. Bug fixes will continue to be free and they will be released as 10.1, 10.3 etc. And new new features will be rolled into the next cardinal release.

So I stand by my statement that your quote of point releases not being free isn't accurate.

Semantically you're correct. I guess my point was that Newtek is changing it's policy on free feature updates between major releases. I think it's a bit disappointing myself even though I (at this point) will continue to be a hardcore member and will receive such updates.

Having said that, I think even non-hardcore members still do receive a good value for their money.

Kuzey
08-05-2010, 05:10 AM
Kuzey, that is too funny :) by your reasoning 4, 6, 8 or any other number they used would be to specific :) I think like Steve mentioned they are just rewarding users for jumping on HC and wouldn't read to much into it.

With regards closing HC after LW10 has shipped, I would say if they needed to they could always change the rules later down the track, just because they decided to do that this time doesn't mean they will not reopen HC in the future (this is just my personal view).

Haha...yes, it is funny :)

The thing is, it's a repeating pattern....5 was mentioned before by Newtek, in that LW contest and hence the reason I saw it as specific. If they used any other figure....then I wouldn't have noticed :hey:

Changing the rules as you go along...gives the impression that something is up...either the company in trouble, they aren't quite sure what to do next, or is looking to be bought out by Apple/MS or the like :D

The point is, they should be seen to be in charge, seen to know what they are doing and that everything is dandy within the company.

My biggest fear is not that HC membership might be big enough, but it sounds like a cheer squad to me. Yes, there might be discussions as to which way a certain feature should go, some might say Maya, others might say lets do it like Max...etc. That's fine, but what about picking out the little things like...we have this cool Max tool, now...what if we tweak it this way or that way...to make it that much better.

Take the Lino rigging demo as an example, most people liked what they saw. But, they couldn't see what I saw...potential improvements to existing features etc. You know, you watch something and you get that Ah-ha moment, why didn't I think of that before reaction. As far as I can tell, everyone seems to be thinking within the box...no one is taking an idea and running with it.

Of course, that's the view from an outsider.....having had some close encounters of the HC kind...hehe :D

Kuzey

JBT27
08-05-2010, 05:35 AM
In any case, is it not cheaper to buy into the upgrade before the release of LW10? I can't remember and can't be bothered to go and check :D but isn't there a $200 difference?

Julian.

lardbros
08-05-2010, 05:37 AM
I think people are forgetting that Newtek is a company... despite being pretty friendly and giving us free point upgrades for years and years... they do need to make money, and the only way they can do that is by making a few people go:

"It's a bit Autodesky"

but, as far as i see it, it is like a business, and that's a good thing.

You STILL get:
100% free support
Bugfixes in point releases
999 render nodes all for free

Hardcore members get: (All of the above, and including...)
A t-shirt
a membership card (woooOOOoo)
All the features added throughout the year
Beta testing as and when new versions are released


I can't imagine any reason why people wouldn't buy into Lightwave 10, especially after the siggraph they've just had. If you earn money doing 3d... the measly sum of $495 dollars per upgrade afterwards would easily be covered by a single job.

Join Hardcore everyone!! :)

Kuzey
08-05-2010, 05:56 AM
I don't have a problem with that...it's this ever changing rules that's getting confusing. It's like Newtek is coming up with a new idea every week and everyone thinks their take on it is the right one :D

The closing of HC concerns me. As I see it....it's not a reward for early adopters, but that the idea isn't working and Newtek can't be bothered with a beta program in the future....again, that's from the outside...trying to look in :D

The other thing, I have this feeling the Mac version is 3 to 6 months behind the PC version...has the OpenGL problems been fixed yet??

Kuzey

cagey5
08-05-2010, 05:58 AM
Semantically you're correct...........

And factually...;) . Which is the important bit. I wouldn't like people to be left with the impression they weren't eligible for upgrades.

lardbros
08-05-2010, 06:15 AM
I don't have a problem with that...it's this ever changing rules that's getting confusing. It's like Newtek is coming up with a new idea every week and everyone thinks their take on it is the right one :D

The closing of HC concerns me. As I see it....it's not a reward for early adopters, but that the idea isn't working and Newtek can't be bothered with a beta program in the future....again, that's from the outside...trying to look in :D

The other thing, I have this feeling the Mac version is 3 to 6 months behind the PC version...has the OpenGL problems been fixed yet??

Kuzey

Newtek hasn't come up with any ideas about the pricing scheme... since the development of CORE, this is the first response we've had on how the pricing structure will be and how the future will pan out. We all knew that Lightwave would carry on being a part of the picture, even with the new CORE, and this is how they've decided to market it and also develop it in future... a wise decision i think. Especially with the amount of work done on LW10 Layout this year... amazing!

From what i gather they've had a larger response to the Hardcore membership than they thought they would... i don't think they are closing it because they want to get rid of the beta testing, as this will go on all the time internally, with the closed beta testers. It is definitely an award for the early adopters. Why would they close a beta programme when we are so valuable to them, and even pay for the privelege in a way. (I'm quite happy with that too).

If they feel the Hardcore members numbers are dwindling a little they can always do the offer again.

I'm not a Mac user, so can't comment on the state of play of that version.

Kuzey
08-05-2010, 06:39 AM
Newtek hasn't come up with any ideas about the pricing scheme... since the development of CORE, this is the first response we've had on how the pricing structure will be and how the future will pan out.

So, is the subscription plan idea out or is it still in??

From all the talk going on...it seems it's neither here nor there, if you join a week before the release, one would expect to be getting LW11...since the plan would expire a year later...about the time of LW11 release.

Now, even if I buy after the release, in early 2011, it seems I won't be getting LW11 but just LW10....with or without bug fixes...but no new features until LW11?

I must not be getting it, but that is confusing as hell to me...and a bit on the nose as well :hey:

This would be a good time for Newtek and not HC members to jump in and clarify every concern/detail people have :D


Kuzey

BigHache
08-05-2010, 08:29 AM
Closing the HC just looks like basic sales and marketing to me. Put a sense of urgency on something or people will just put it off.

robertoortiz
08-05-2010, 08:50 AM
Being part of the CORE BEtA program I can attest that it has been worth it.


It has ups and downs but, so far it has bee a blast.
-R

hrgiger
08-05-2010, 10:59 AM
And factually...;) . Which is the important bit. I wouldn't like people to be left with the impression they weren't eligible for upgrades.

I wouldn't consider a bug fix and upgrade, I consider it maintenance. But again, I'll just say that the 'upgrades' that people have been used to getting between major releases which sometimes has included some pretty significant new features will become a thing of the past for non-hardcore users.

hrgiger
08-05-2010, 11:08 AM
This would be a good time for Newtek and not HC members to jump in and clarify every concern/detail people have :D


Kuzey

They seem to be off this week after Siggraph or something because we haven't heard from them in the hc forums either.

The whole thing is rather simple(as long as Newtek doesn't chage it AGAIN). I know you want someone from Newtek to clarify this so feel free to ignore this following part.

You can't buy LW11 now, even if you wait until a week before LW10 comes out. You get one release for each hardcore membership you purchase. After LW10, there is no hardcore membership for new buyers (or in your case upgrader).

Buy now, you get LW10, and a hardcore membership that will last all through the beta 11 cycle just before release where you will have the opportunity to renew again at the same price. Repeat this 3 more times as you're guaranteed the price for 5 upgrades starting with LW10.

Don't buy before LW10 is released, hardcore might as well not exist for you. You pay $695 for an upgrade and if the price goes up to $895 or to a million dollars, that's the price you pay for an upgrade. You're guaranteed nothing on that front.

Cageman
08-05-2010, 11:56 AM
But again, I'll just say that the 'upgrades' that people have been used to getting between major releases which sometimes has included some pretty significant new features will become a thing of the past for non-hardcore users.

If I understand things correctly, this also applies to HC-members. While we are going to have the oppertunity to play with new features in preview builds, when those are ready to be released we will have to pay for them as well. The upper hand a HC-member have is that he/she can test the new version before it is released, and decide wether or not it will be worth $395 or $495 (depending on if you are charter member or not).

cagey5
08-05-2010, 12:13 PM
I wouldn't consider a bug fix and upgrade, I consider it maintenance. But again, I'll just say that the 'upgrades' that people have been used to getting between major releases which sometimes has included some pretty significant new features will become a thing of the past for non-hardcore users.

On that I'll agree. Twas a typo on my part I meant to type update. Either way your original statement was still false so ner. We can bat this back and forth but you won't win this argument I suggest we move on... :devil:

geothefaust
08-05-2010, 12:26 PM
It's very confusing, either way. I hope they get this nailed down.

geothefaust
08-05-2010, 12:28 PM
I think that's an exaggeration but I'll grant you, it's being a little less Newtek. But as I pointed out earlier, you get so much more for your Lightwave license then what you get with an Autodesk one and it's certainly still cheaper.

As soon as Newtek starts acuiring different 3D packages and selling them seperately, cutting out base packages (like XSI foundation), sueing people for trying to sell their licenses, charging subscription fees(and no, hardcore is not a subscription per se as you get the software included in that price)and charging prices that in most cases only professionals can afford, then I'll be the first to agree with you.

The bottom line is that you still have an opportunity to get in on the new releases if you choose to take advantage of it.

And yes I know that XSI foundation was cut before AD acquired them but I still think it was a condition of the acquisition. And AD didn't exactly reverse that decision either did they?

Well, I am privy to some information that you are not... All I can say is, at least NT isn't pushing a 4 package "suite" as they were hoping.

Kuzey
08-05-2010, 01:23 PM
They seem to be off this week after Siggraph or something because we haven't heard from them in the hc forums either.

The whole thing is rather simple(as long as Newtek doesn't chage it AGAIN). I know you want someone from Newtek to clarify this so feel free to ignore this following part.

You can't buy LW11 now, even if you wait until a week before LW10 comes out. You get one release for each hardcore membership you purchase. After LW10, there is no hardcore membership for new buyers (or in your case upgrader).

Buy now, you get LW10, and a hardcore membership that will last all through the beta 11 cycle just before release where you will have the opportunity to renew again at the same price. Repeat this 3 more times as you're guaranteed the price for 5 upgrades starting with LW10.

Don't buy before LW10 is released, hardcore might as well not exist for you. You pay $695 for an upgrade and if the price goes up to $895 or to a million dollars, that's the price you pay for an upgrade. You're guaranteed nothing on that front.

Yes..Newtek seems to be on a well deserved holiday....funny how these things always pop up at the wrong time...so to speak :hey:

It seems the subscription period is shortened enough or dead, as to not get LW11, but get a taste of it. So, even if you hold out and buy a month before LW11 is released you are buying 10 and not 11...unless Newtek allows for purchases after a certain date to include the next version of software.

Just curious, if you opt out and do not continue with HC, will the LW11 beta still work for you, or is there a time locked and won't function after a period of time. I'm thinking the state of LW11 at this time would/should be near complete...except for bug fixes etc.

I do appreciate all the help from the HC members, but sometimes we end up in an infinite loop :hey:

Now...I just need a time machine and jump to next Monday...Newtek, you will be back at work by then...yes??

:D

Kuzey

hrgiger
08-05-2010, 02:05 PM
On that I'll agree. Twas a typo on my part I meant to type update. Either way your original statement was still false so ner. We can bat this back and forth but you won't win this argument I suggest we move on... :devil:

There's no argument. I am well aware that Javis meant feature point updates between releases and what I said in my original statement holds true on that front.

@Kuzey- Do you mean if you decide to not buy 11 once it's available to purchase? We use temporary license keys in beta so in theory your license key would run out and you would no longer be able to use the beta. Of course, some extend it by changing back the clock/date on their computer but I'm guessing that final release candidates of the software won't be available to people unless they purchase the next upgrade so I'm not sure if going to all that trouble will be worth it for software that doesn't have most of the bugs worked out.

Kuzey
08-05-2010, 02:23 PM
@Kuzey- Do you mean if you decide to not buy 11 once it's available to purchase? We use temporary license keys in beta so in theory your license key would run out and you would no longer be able to use the beta. Of course, some extend it by changing back the clock/date on their computer but I'm guessing that final release candidates of the software won't be available to people unless they purchase the next upgrade so I'm not sure if going to all that trouble will be worth it for software that doesn't have most of the bugs worked out.

Haha...I should have remembered about the temporary keys, but then again, I haven't even tried the 9.6.1 beta yet...so I totally forgot about those.

I just imagined, that the license key for the last public LW11 beta would be extended, just to give people more time to think about upgrading and what not.

Kuzey

Shnoze Shmon
08-05-2010, 03:10 PM
I just think why 5, and why not 4 or 6 or even 8...it's kinda too specific.

Special dispensation for you Kuzey. You will get something between 4.75 to 5.17 upgrades depending on how long after a blue moon and before a full moon each of the releases were, and the end result being modified by a spin on the roulette wheel.





...if the price goes up to $895 or to a million dollars, that's the price you pay for an upgrade.

If the price for a seat goes up to a million dollars I will be selling mine.

geothefaust
08-05-2010, 03:44 PM
There's no argument. I am well aware that Javis meant feature point updates between releases and what I said in my original statement holds true on that front.



Yes indeed, that is what I meant. Sorry, I didn't specify that. :)

lardbros
08-05-2010, 04:37 PM
I don't want to sound an idiot or anything, but i think this time Newtek have made it as clear as crystal about the pricing plan etc.

If you read through it all it makes sense.

The guys who joined first are chartership hardcore: before 31st of March 2009. We get upgrades for the next 5 years for $395 each time.

Standard Hardcore members get upgrades for $495 each year if they keep up with payments.

Previous owners of LW can buy into LW 10 now will be able to pay just $495 too.

People who are completely new to LW only pay $895.

All of these will get Hardcore membership if they buy before the deadline.

Wait until the software ships, and you pay more... and don't get into Hardcore. It's a nice incentive, and very good marketing plan in my opinion.

Also, all people who buy into LW 10 now, also get the upgrade to LW 11 when its released. If you don't want to pay the next upgrade cost.... you'll still own LW 11!

I've gone through almost every option here and all you have to do on your own is figure out which option you come under and see how much it'll cost you to upgrade now, or if you wait.

Good times!

Drocket
08-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Also, all people who buy into LW 10 now, also get the upgrade to LW 11 when its released. If you don't want to pay the next upgrade cost.... you'll still own LW 11!

Actually I think this part is incorrect, my understanding is if you buy LW 10 before it is released you get access to HC until LW 11 is released and during that period you get to beta test LW 11. You will then be given the option to upgrade to LW 11 (during the grace period set by NT) before LW 11 is released.

Buying LW 10 now gives you a license of LW 10 when it is released but does not give you a free upgrade to LW 11, you will need to purchase that upgrade at a later date when NT release it.

hrgiger
08-05-2010, 10:29 PM
Actually I think this part is incorrect, my understanding is if you buy LW 10 before it is released you get access to HC until LW 11 is released and during that period you get to beta test LW 11. You will then be given the option to upgrade to LW 11 (during the grace period set by NT) before LW 11 is released.

Buying LW 10 now gives you a license of LW 10 when it is released but does not give you a free upgrade to LW 11, you will need to purchase that upgrade at a later date when NT release it.

That is correct. Lightwave 11 cannot be purchased until it is ready to be released which won't be for some time. People in hardcore now will have access to the 11 beta with their current membership but will have to upgrade to actually receive the LW11 release.

Pavlov
08-06-2010, 03:34 AM
I need a clarification too.
I've 4 licenses; one of these was upgraded to HC program from it's start, so i'll get one LW 10 license for free. Other three licenses are common, non HC 9.6 licenses. Since i'm in Europe and since we're nearly in september, i wonder when Newtek Europe will give us a formal offer for upgrade. I ask this because if it happens too late, we EU users will have too little time to get discount on upgrade.

thanks,
Paolo

lardbros
08-06-2010, 04:47 AM
Actually I think this part is incorrect, my understanding is if you buy LW 10 before it is released you get access to HC until LW 11 is released and during that period you get to beta test LW 11. You will then be given the option to upgrade to LW 11 (during the grace period set by NT) before LW 11 is released.

Buying LW 10 now gives you a license of LW 10 when it is released but does not give you a free upgrade to LW 11, you will need to purchase that upgrade at a later date when NT release it.

You're dead right...

Ooopsie... i typed that after a bloomin' stressful day... I should have put the LW 11 beta, not the released one.

Whatever I put, it's a good idea to join Hardcore... full stop! :)

Apologies for adding even more to the confusion, I should keep my mouth shtum from now on! :)

Kuzey
08-06-2010, 06:43 AM
You will get something between 4.75 to 5.17 upgrades depending on how long after a blue moon and before a full moon each of the releases were, and the end result being modified by a spin on the roulette wheel.


Mmmm...now you've gone and done it...revealing Newtek's LW10/Core pricing policy formula to the public like that. I can just see AD copying this from now on..I just hope you don't get banned for it...haha.



Also, all people who buy into LW 10 now, also get the upgrade to LW 11 when its released. If you don't want to pay the next upgrade cost.... you'll still own LW 11!


Good times!

I know you corrected this in the above post, but this is what I'm talking about. If you buy after LW10 is released....you get full LW11...it's so simple and the right thing to do too...in my opinion of course :hey:

Kuzey

Kuzey
08-06-2010, 06:48 AM
Just a quick question....will Vpr be finished at the time of LW10 release??

Eg..will it be able to handle all the same things that the full render engine can, and will you be able to export your renders/animations from vpr??

Kuzey

SBowie
08-06-2010, 06:59 AM
I know you corrected this in the above post, but this is what I'm talking about. If you buy after LW10 is released....you get full LW11...it's so simple and the right thing to do too...in my opinion of course.I don't believe this is correct. Prior practice would suggest that if you buy into 10 very close (some specified interval announced at the appropriate time) to the release of 11, you would likely get a free upgrade to 11. Apart from that, you're just buying 10.

Kuzey
08-06-2010, 07:18 AM
I don't believe this is correct. Prior practice would suggest that if you buy into 10 very close (some specified interval announced at the appropriate time) to the release of 11, you would likely get a free upgrade to 11. Apart from that, you're just buying 10.

Yeah..I mentioned the prior practice in a previous post...very nice, as it happened to me once :thumbsup:

It all depends if the subscription plan is still in play or not, but it sounds like they have shortened it just enough....so you don't get LW11. Of course, this is guess work on my part and going by what others(HC members) have mentioned :hey:

I'm waiting for the team to return from their holidays, but that's my guess at the moment.

Kuzey

SBowie
08-06-2010, 07:21 AM
It all depends if the subscription plan is still in play or not, but it sounds like they have shortened it just enough....I haven't seen the word "subscription" used in NewTek communications for a while.

Kuzey
08-06-2010, 07:29 AM
Yes...it seems to be changing all the time, but it still sounds like a subscription plan. You buy LW10 and get to play with the LW11 beta, but you miss out on the final product.

Anyway......I'll wait until Monday or when the team returns to find out what is what :D

Kuzey

hrgiger
08-06-2010, 11:49 AM
I know you corrected this in the above post, but this is what I'm talking about. If you buy after LW10 is released....you get full LW11...it's so simple and the right thing to do too...in my opinion of course :hey:

Kuzey

Actually, if you buy after LW10, you'll get LW10 because it sounds like there won't be any pre-buy for LW11 after this current version. And there won't be any buying into hardcore after LW10 is released so you won't have to worry about what you qualify for or don't qualify for as you'll see exactly what you're getting on the order page when you upgrade which is exactly one version of Lightwave. You won't be able to order/purchase Lightwave 11 until they make it available which will probably be when it's close to release.

Yog
08-06-2010, 12:38 PM
I haven't seen the word "subscription" used in NewTek communications for a while.
I think Newtek were planning a traditional style subscription (like Autodesk's) when they first thought they could release a new full version each twelve months. Now that they have realised that an eighteen to twenty-four month cycle is more realistic, they have subtly changed the wording to HC members needing to buy the next full version, rather than stipulate a time scale.

Given Newtek's ability to misjudge time-scales so badly and consistently in the past, I was very surprised when they initially put a time scale on the first subscription / Core release,especially given the great unknowns involved in a completely new project, and the now apparent extremely early stage of development when they first made the announcement.

colkai
08-07-2010, 05:41 AM
You won't be able to order/purchase Lightwave 11 until they make it available which will probably be when it's close to release.

That is a smart move and long overdue.
One thing Newtek have never been spectacular at is hitting deadlines, so a "buy it when it's here" is a better approach.
So long as Newtek continue their past tradition of being able to skip a release or two then simply upgrade from your existing version, I think most folks would be happy with that.