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View Full Version : How many people think that a camera looks like an rpg



Tippsy
07-26-2010, 09:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EWUUBjPMo&feature=channel

Some sad reality of war for you.

h2oStudios
07-26-2010, 09:15 PM
Dude, when I see sh*t like this... argh... Get's me really fired up...

Tippsy
07-26-2010, 11:53 PM
Exactly my point, the fact that they just assume, I mean I understand they are fighting for their and our lives but I mean you can clearly see in the video its a camera. And than to like brag about those b******* being dead on the ground as one crawls away jeezz...

cresshead
07-27-2010, 01:35 AM
hard to say, the guy kneeling down behind the corner pointing 'something' could have been a launcher or a camera it's not that clear at all really..depends on the rocket launcher design..i'm not an expert on rpg's or cameras with long lenses siluetes when viewed in black n white from a helicopter's laser guided camera.

when YOUR up in the air and it's possible a RPG that could blow you and your buddies out of the sky and end YOUR life then the pressure to decide in your interests is tough to get right.

we're just sat here thousands of miles away watching youtube...no pressure, no imminent death threat for us at all.


would be interesting to put ourselves in the position IN that helicopter and then say we'd not do anything...think about it.

erikals
07-27-2010, 01:44 AM
i'm not against trying to protect civilians from extremists, but we have to ask ourself at what cost. the bad thing is that because of bad military leadership /strategy, this stuff will most likely backfire.

i'm not sure what method that should be used, but the Afghanistan / Iran war just seem to cause more harm /more confusion /more extremists.

erikals
07-27-2010, 01:45 AM
would be interesting to put ourselves in the position IN that helicopter and then say we'd not do anything...think about it.

true.

archijam
07-27-2010, 01:49 AM
Shoot first, ask questions later, just in case, eh?

Never can be too sure. Dead people can't shoot back. Especially those without guns.

Would be interesting to put ourselves in the position of the people holding the cameras .. or their families.

Interesting that the youtube comments are supporting the action.

erikals
07-27-2010, 02:17 AM
i'm sure they are the same YT guys as before who posts the same kind of comments,
with nothing better to do.

Matt
07-27-2010, 02:34 AM
I'm all for freedom of speech an all, but do we really need to drag this ugly topic to the "General NewTek Discussion" forum?

erikals
07-27-2010, 02:47 AM
I'm all for freedom of speech an all, but do we really need to drag this ugly topic to the "General NewTek Discussion" forum?

well, discussing it at YT is impossible, just look at the YT comments.
some newspapers lets you comment on the articles though, but far from all.
i've always found wavers to be quite civilized, so why not :]

gordonrobb
07-27-2010, 03:01 AM
I'm with Cresshead on this. Whilst I think the first shots of the guy with something over his shoulder didn't look like a weapon, the guy crouching round the corner could easlily have been. I wouldn't want to have been the one to decide wether it was or not. Also, putting myself in the position of the camera man, I wouldn't have been pointed anythign at an apache.

Matt
07-27-2010, 03:33 AM
We just need to get the hell out of Iraq AND Afghanistan and let them settle their own affairs.

If only ...

http://www.theconnextion.com/yesmen/images/YES1NEWS_lg.jpg

Tippsy
07-27-2010, 04:12 AM
And ya I mean like I said I may feel differently if I was in the situation and ya of course if it was my life or theirs than I would choose to take action, usually though (before Iraq etc.) US policy was to not fire until fired upon (which has pos. and neg.) or to have credible info, rather than just thinking one thing or another. It truly is a hard thing to judge and probably why gov. didn't want the video getting out. As well as the fact that after they shot them down a van pulled up trying to get the bodies of the reporters and they shot all them too injuring and possibly killing the two children inside the van.

(and this is probably just me knowing what cameras look like and all but I have never seen an rpg or grenade launcher etc that small...and he points it than doesn't fire and just walks around as the chopper circles hmmmm.)

As for whether or not to drag this into the forums, im sorry if you feel I shouldn't have but from all the threads I have seen this is perfectly reasonable and was just looking to see people's opinions bad or good.

Tippsy
07-27-2010, 04:17 AM
I was getting ready to be pissed off like you, but there was no bragging. They were stating facts like gosh darn robots. While I don't see how they could have seen those cameras as RPG's, they certainly weren't bragging. God how I hate this crap. We just need to get the hell out of Iraq AND Afghanistan and let them settle their own affairs.


Maybe bragging wasn't the right word to use, I just don't like how they talk about it and trying to get authorization to gun down the guy crawling and than when the van pulls up the guy is like "right through the windshield nice!" Of course im sure they regretted their actions and comments after finding out they were civilians and that they injured or killed the two kids in the van, just to me it angers/saddens me, not necessarily them but war itself as well.

RebelHill
07-27-2010, 04:25 AM
Yep... I go with cress too... though have to add in the ol chesnut of what the mind actually "sees". Its a well known fact that when you're looking specifically for something, you'll be able to find it... for instance animal/object shapes in clouds, etc, etc. When a person is intently focussed on trying to find something, they will see "ghosts" everywhere.

As for the "dont fire unless fired upon" policy... thats never REALLY been the policy, or more to the point, its been the policy applied to ground forces... in almost all situations where someone, or someones are inside armour, the policy is pretty much fire if you think you may be fired upon... the shooting down of IR655, and the sinking of the gneral belgrano being clear examples of this.

Also, as for the footage being leaked... Im not so sure about taht... the DOD released the footage publicly, or at least thats what the news report said when I saw this clip on TV several months ago.

Tippsy
07-27-2010, 04:40 AM
Well I don't know of many rpg's that can shoot a helicopter down from 3 kilometers away, I mean all I am basically saying is I wished they had waited a little longer to confirm, as they did have ground troops on the way. But of course its impossibly hard to judge without being in the situation. And it hasn't been the policy to allow civilians to die along with a terrorist just in case, To me that's part of why American troops are hero's in my eyes is that they put their lives at risk to make sure and to do the best at only killing the enemy, even if it means putting their own lives in more danger to be sure, where as some governments just have the shoot first ask questions later policy.

And of course I dont know that much in any of these situations and maybe I should not have brought it up to judge on something I really have no clue about, sorry guys.

safetyman
07-27-2010, 07:04 AM
As someone who has a loved-one deployed, I can say none of us "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" have the right to judge the actions of those guys. In a warzone, lives are at stake. I don't care if you're a photographer, school teacher, whatever -- you don't do suspicious stuff when there are guys with guns hanging around. You just don't.

biliousfrog
07-27-2010, 07:19 AM
The guy pointing round the corner - could easily be confused for a weapon when you're circling a few kilometers away, viewing in black and white and tasked with eliminating threats to your colleagues. Even sitting comfortably in a chair and knowing that it was a camera I can see how it might look like a weapon.

At around 1:12 there's a guy in the centre of the frame who does appear to have an RPG or at least something that closely resembles one. I expected it to turn out to be a tripod or something but it didn't.

Shnoze Shmon
07-27-2010, 07:40 AM
There were a bunch of guys with AK47s walking with him. They were obviously up to something. It was a good call. I enjoyed the video, thanks!

And YES we need to be in Iraq, and Afghanistan. We should be in Syria, and Iran as well. The enemy/civilian body count should be a lot higher, and the only problem with the way were conducting this war is the restraint put upon our troops. If you don't like that and you've already posted to the contrary, then stuff it! I don't come here to see my country run down or those risking their lives on behalf of me and those I care about, be criticized and attacked by those who probably wouldn't/couldn't lift a finger to defend their own mothers.


The tone of my post is no less flammable than the premise of the original post. If it's deemed unacceptable here then don't let it start, because if it does, I reserve the right to participate.

Cageman
07-27-2010, 07:51 AM
RPGs are quite inneffective against helicopters at great distance (such as in this case), since they do not have any heatseeking capabilities. Their range is about 800-1000 meters, so, in this case, the people in the helicopter were quite safe.

There are anti-aircraft surface-to-missile launchers that needs to be shouldermounted (Stinger). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIM-92_Stinger) They are alot bigger though, compared to, lets say Carl Gustaf. (http://world.guns.ru/grenade/cg_m3-load.jpg)

If you look at the image of Carl Gustaf, it is understandable that a camera can be misstaken for an RPG. However, there were no actual threat to the helicopter and since there were no military activities in the near area, there were no threats towards other US Military forces either.

This leaves us to the civilian population that could indeed be in an emediate danger, if it would have been RPGs, and this is what I believe the gunner and commander assumed and decided to open fire.

Tragic, yes. But this is what happens in war; people die and this should be reason enough to not go to war, no matter where you come from.

Oh well...

warmiak
07-27-2010, 08:48 AM
Exactly my point, the fact that they just assume, I mean I understand they are fighting for their and our lives but I mean you can clearly see in the video its a camera. And than to like brag about those b******* being dead on the ground as one crawls away jeezz...

The camera dude was hanging out with some guys who did have weapons ( which was even admitted by the wikileaks guys) ... it is unfortunate for him but if you do hang out with combatants , bad things can happen.

End of story.

JBT27
07-27-2010, 09:01 AM
Terrible nasty upsetting thing though isn't it? The face of modern war right out in the open for all to see in our daily mostly non-violent lives.

Yep, very very tough and tragic - you'd almost think it was like some game to those guys, listening to them, and their delight and congratulation.

I'm sure they were very sorry for what they'd done .....

Julian.

JBT27
07-27-2010, 09:05 AM
The camera dude was hanging out with some guys who did have weapons ( which was even admitted by the wikileaks guys) ... it is unfortunate for him but if you do hang out with combatants , bad things can happen.

End of story.

Oh that's good to know - I guess he was a bit dim then ..... hanging out with one side as the other circles overhead in gunships eyeing the group up .....

Julian.

JeffrySG
07-27-2010, 09:18 AM
hard to say, the guy kneeling down behind the corner pointing 'something' could have been a launcher or a camera it's not that clear at all really..depends on the rocket launcher design..i'm not an expert on rpg's or cameras with long lenses siluetes when viewed in black n white from a helicopter's laser guided camera.

when YOUR up in the air and it's possible a RPG that could blow you and your buddies out of the sky and end YOUR life then the pressure to decide in your interests is tough to get right.

we're just sat here thousands of miles away watching youtube...no pressure, no imminent death threat for us at all.


would be interesting to put ourselves in the position IN that helicopter and then say we'd not do anything...think about it.

:agree:

Totally agree.... I don't fault my troops for making those decisions I fault my country for being there in the first place. I support my troops fully but I don't support the real reasons that most of these wars and conflicts ever happen. I honestly think that most civilians in this would would pretty much get along if all the governments just stay out of the war business. Just a pipe dream I guess though.

JBT27
07-27-2010, 09:30 AM
:agree:

Totally agree.... I don't fault my troops for making those decisions I fault my country for being there in the first place. I support my troops fully but I don't support the real reasons that most of these wars and conflicts ever happen. I honestly think that most civilians in this would would pretty much get along if all the governments just stay out of the war business. Just a pipe dream I guess though.

:agree:

Perhaps not yet, but ultimately, most people would get on OK with most other people, or at best just ignore them. It is most assuredly governments that declare war and have their armies fight each other.

Invading a country is a different matter though - you see wrong there, so do you turn your back, or go and help out? Or if you are invaded, do you fight the invader? Of course you do.

I do agree, but then it's just not that simple - I wish it was.

We were watching the new BBC 'Sherlock' on Sunday night. Someone remarked about Dr Watson being invalided out of the army from Afghanistan, pointing out that the original Dr. Watson was invalided out from The Second Anglo-Afghan War, 1878-80 .....

Julian.

warmiak
07-27-2010, 09:34 AM
Oh that's good to know - I guess he was a bit dim then ..... hanging out with one side as the other circles overhead in gunships eyeing the group up .....

Julian.


Well, the thing about Apache is that it can hover so far away ( we talking here a mile or more) as to make it essentially undetectable to a person on the ground.

JBT27
07-27-2010, 09:42 AM
Well, the thing about Apache is that it can hover so far away ( we talking here a mile or more) as to make it essentially undetectable to a person on the ground.

OK then, that makes more sense - the perspective and foreshortening of the buildings as the Apache flew around kind of gave it the impression of being much nearer.

The guy who pointed that camera/whatever around that wall, apparently looking at the Apache, seemed like he was viewing something much closer. I'm about a mile from my town, and when a helicopter hovers over there, it's pretty small and nothing to get excited about, as it were. But I guess that also explains why the group didn't seem that freaked about gunships hovering around.

Julian.

GregMalick
07-27-2010, 10:03 AM
I think the major issue everyone should think about is that thousands upon thousands of words are written about the unintentional mistakes our military has made. Very few words are being written about the inhumanity of terrorists purposefully targeting civilians.

oh you will get the occasional "yeah of course that's terrible" often followed by a diatribe about how stupid or incompetent our military or government is. Or worse, how our only interest is in stealing their oil.

Ultimately the result is world opinion being shifted against the people fighting the terrorists.

Perhaps it would be in everyone's best interests if we focused on the families devastated by car bombs in public marketplaces or IEDs planted in the roads.

erikals
07-27-2010, 10:18 AM
so what's the solution?
should the troops get out? leaving Al-Qaida in charge?
should we only operate in self-defense? or will that make the situation worse, making Al-Qaida grow. (very possible)

how can you stop extremists? and how can you minimize the potential danger of more extremists to join the group?

why are our countries at peace and theirs not?
what makes us (basically) not attack our own people? because we live good lives?
because we're not (most of us) obsessed with a religious book?

can explaining the way of evolution to the majority of the Afghan people be a solution?

erikals
07-27-2010, 10:27 AM
not an answer, but a good interview,...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMuI7LdG-wk

biliousfrog
07-27-2010, 10:59 AM
The problem is, and always has been, that the middle eastern civilisations are a very tribal race and trying to convert them to a western way of living and thinking is pointless and also quite insulting. It's reminiscent of the crusades. As for the 'war on terror', it is also pointless...terrorism cannot be destroyed with war. Look up the definition of terrorist and you'll see that it can easily apply to our troops and their leaders. Invading a country to forcifully change their lives, for better or worse, isn't any better than using scare tactics to change someone's opinion...the only difference is that we have more money, more guns and more people backing our beliefs.

erikals
07-27-2010, 11:08 AM
1. is teaching a group of people the way of evolution insulting? maybe.
2. does it really matter if it saves lives?

SBowie
07-27-2010, 11:09 AM
Rather than justification for or condemnation of this or any war, I'd be interested to see how some have evidently arrived at the conclusion that any of this falls within criteria outlined in the Forum Moderation Policy (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=500391&postcount=1).

erikals
07-27-2010, 11:12 AM
saving the world is in NT's best interest http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

SBowie
07-27-2010, 11:16 AM
Or maybe that's what they'd like you to think....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/V-FinalBattle-2002DVDcover.jpg

erikals
07-27-2010, 11:18 AM
The NT team are really aliens from outer space that are covered with human skin and eats people without a second thought and likes it? Dang!

h2oStudios
07-27-2010, 11:38 AM
isn't any better than using scare tactics to change someone's opinion...the only difference is that we have more money, more guns and more people backing our beliefs.

Maya users? :p...

[Edit .... ]

Phew, haven't ranted in a while.

Cheers.

SBowie
07-27-2010, 11:45 AM
I tried a tactful feint ... oh well.