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View Full Version : Schools kill creativity



hrgiger
06-24-2010, 09:02 PM
My wife is an art teacher at a local school and as a part of her continuing education, they watched this speech in class this evening. I found it very interesting, accurate, and funny at times. It's about 20 minutes in length and I feel worth checking out: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

Snosrap
06-24-2010, 11:02 PM
Thanks for the link Steve, that was great!

insignet
06-25-2010, 12:11 AM
Thanks for the link... a great presentation and so true!

JCG
06-25-2010, 12:15 AM
No Ms. Robinson, your son isn't sick; he's a Speaker.

borkus
06-25-2010, 12:22 AM
That was a good watch, Steve. Thanks for the link. Being in college right now, I see first hand some of the topics that he brings up. But, to where do we turn to to start making the changes? Who will take the first leap as a pioneer or alternatively follow a path that is condemned by the masses? This conversation is something that I heard some of my teachers from my youth bring up and the conversation went nowhere in that things are still the same old in the schools that I grew up in. It is frustrating to see the limitations that are upon us as an individual in our society but have no concrete way of implementing the changes that many of us believe would benefit the many.

dballesg
06-25-2010, 01:49 AM
Thanks for the link Steve.

I felt it was so true about my own education when I heard what he said.

In the What to Watch Next, there is another conference about the same by the same speaker Ken Robinson.

Really brilliant both of them.

David

Stunt Pixels
06-25-2010, 02:20 AM
Oh, have to mention, if people haven't looked at TED before, it's WELL worth checking more of the talks out. Some brilliant talks around tech and design! Only problem is I find myself losing hours getting mesmerized with the talks... You might want to set time limits!

hrgiger
06-25-2010, 03:53 AM
It's frankly just disappointing. My wife sees this problem firsthand and has been a victim of this herself. When a school makes cuts, it often is quick to cut the arts (music/art) first.

There is another speech on there I watched about how robots are invading our lives which was pretty interesting too.

OnlineRender
06-25-2010, 04:09 AM
excellent speech , held the stage on his own . funny insightful and yet harsh . . . thumbsup

Matt
06-25-2010, 04:33 AM
Ted rocks, so many great talks and performances.

zarti
06-25-2010, 04:52 AM
thank you for the link !

Tobian
06-25-2010, 06:39 AM
Yeah I saw that one a while back, and it prompted me to watch a lot of the Ted talks, it's a very inspirational institution and set of ideas.

And I very much agree with what he said. It's sad that even in the creative field it always boils down to industry, so it is always nice to see people being creative for the love of it. Lightwave is often seen as a 'hobbyist' tool, by the elitist, but there's some phenomenal work coming out of it, because 'hobbyists' are being creative for the love of it! :) Now only if I could unlearn some of my 'education' :D

Nangleator
06-25-2010, 08:13 AM
We're still being turned into obedient, unimaginative workers for the mills.

The same economic forces that made robber barons and their factories so terrible still exist, and the gains that workers made for their own rights have been mostly destroyed again, with the enthusiastic help of today's workers.

Hieron
06-25-2010, 09:47 AM
At times it's like watching Eddie Izzard on stage. He sure can work a crowd. The point he makes is sketchy and definately not one of the best I've seen.

I'm all for creativity and allowing the invididual mind to grow, but don't downplay the importance of knowledge in the sciences either. Also, all professors I know don't even come close to his portrayal of them either. But it sure got a good laugh.

I do think the scientific education could use a bit more push for creativity (but that is already happening) in order to create more valorisation, possibilities and economic growth. But sure, there should be less guilt on kids that can't make that "perfect path" to a top university while keeping an eye on other talents they may have.

Unless he is suggesting an economy/future of a country is seriously aided by everyone turning to the arts. I'd like to see a country try.

Sarford
06-26-2010, 04:27 AM
I'm all for creativity and allowing the invididual mind to grow, but don't downplay the importance of knowledge in the sciences either.

That is not what he did at all, he said that the arts were equally important.


I do think the scientific education could use a bit more push for creativity (but that is already happening) in order to create more valorisation, possibilities and economic growth.

His point, which you illustrate here, is that scientific education is seen as the only valuable education, he argues that art educations are just as valuable.
And maybe contrary to your believe, the art sector definitely also contributes to economic growth (which, concluding from your post, is a decisive factor for being valuable in your eyes).

Tobian
06-26-2010, 08:05 AM
I think the point he was making was we treat the creative arts only in the context of 'not science' - in that they don't contribute anything valuable, and what he says is painfully true, any time there are budget cuts at schools, the arts are the first things to go. Most of what I did at school was out of hours, when a few teachers would volunteer time to help us, and loan equipment, because they wanted to help me and my mates go further.. none of that came from the school. The arts are given minimal funding and support in most schooling systems, and that's fairly universal.

The other point was he was trying to expand on the idea of teaching to suit the needs of the individual, everyone learns in different ways and has different strenghts. Pupils who are not seen as science/engineering/language oriented aren't seen as being 'bright' and usually fail at school, but quite often it's the opposite that's true, and their potential has just not been tapped into yet. It takes non-convential and very bright teachers to tap into that potential, which has only to be commended.

Schools are little more than exam factories these days in the UK, and it's extremely sad really.

radams
06-26-2010, 08:51 AM
I think the point he was making was we treat the creative arts only in the context of 'not science' - in that they don't contribute anything valuable, and what he says is painfully true, any time there are budget cuts at schools, the arts are the first things to go. Most of what I did at school was out of hours, when a few teachers would volunteer time to help us, and loan equipment, because they wanted to help me and my mates go further.. none of that came from the school. The arts are given minimal funding and support in most schooling systems, and that's fairly universal.

The other point was he was trying to expand on the idea of teaching to suit the needs of the individual, everyone learns in different ways and has different strenghts. Pupils who are not seen as science/engineering/language oriented aren't seen as being 'bright' and usually fail at school, but quite often it's the opposite that's true, and their potential has just not been tapped into yet. It takes non-convential and very bright teachers to tap into that potential, which has only to be commended.

Schools are little more than exam factories these days in the UK, and it's extremely sad really.

Yes, I agree...and it is sad that ones life's choices, direction and opportunities are limited and decided by those exams.

I have lived here in the US and in Switzerland/EU. Something that I found very short sided and limiting...in Switzerland...that just to get most any job...you needed to have some specific study..with X number of certificates etc...to even sell retail, etc. I am all for training but to limit to only those with a specific study, etc. just makes things too specialized and limiting. Unfortunately the same things are happening here in the US. Which bothers me greatly. In the US it used to be if you had the drive and head on your shoulders...you could pursue most any opportunity....now if you don't have X, Y, Z certificate or degree...it's like you don't exist or know anything...even if you have 30 years experience...such is the case with IT and technology positions. It sucks. At times I feel like you need to have a three year study and certicate to blow your own nose ;).

And many of those here doing professional FX and production work...didn't go to a specific school just for that degree or certificate...for many 3D was learned on our own..along with compositing, etc. through our vision and trial and error along with the help of others. Now we have all these "art/design" colleges...some good but many just take your money with not much to show for it. Most are just in it of profit...not to help create artists/designers or TDs. Are you Avid, Adobe, Maya, Microsoft, Final Cut, etc. certifide? What a load of crap.

Cheers,

shrox
06-26-2010, 02:48 PM
Many students come away from these schools thinking that they "way" they were taught is the "only way". While this might be good for a specific pipeline job, it really doesn't foster creativity and multiple approaches. The shortened timeline of these schools just doesn't allow the time to explore various concepts, just enough time to learn one specific method it seems.

Hieron
06-26-2010, 03:47 PM
His point, which you illustrate here, is that scientific education is seen as the only valuable education

Pretty strong words.
Can you please quote where I illustrated that?





he argues that art educations are just as valuable.
And maybe contrary to your believe, the art sector definitely also contributes to economic growth (which, concluding from your post, is a decisive factor for being valuable in your eyes).

I'm in the art sector and I sure hope I do contribute. So what is your point? Ofcourse it does contribute. The point is the importance of the sector. I'm in both actually.

The bottom line to me, is that public education is no charity. The arts are already getting plenty attention and if the educational system would be more geared towards it I expect we'd have a country filled with jobless singers/dancers/painters too. Just look at all those "Idols" TV shows etc. Everyone and their mum thinks they can sing, dance etc. And how many of those that were even good in those shows make a decent living on it all their life? Only the super hardcore would ever take up a math book if the emphasis is dropped. Personally I think any country would not be aided with decreasing focus on the sciences.

Perhaps it is not fair to many, this drive to the sciences. England was at the forefront of the industrial revolution, all pushed foreward by research and development. Now, not so much. So an Englishman saying that we should abandon such focus feels a bit like trying to halt the competition that is speeding way ahead. But unless the entire world drops it, the select countries that do will fall behind economically over time. (unless they do for instance some banking and hope it lasts...) At least, that's what I think. But I may be prejudiced :)



and their potential has just not been tapped into yet. It takes non-convential and very bright teachers to tap into that potential, which has only to be commended.

Tricky though, to be exact on who has talent to make it and who is just not specifically talented. I think the latter group is substantially bigger and it would be quite a responsibility on the shoulders of a teacher to be the one to steer a student into another path. For many, having diplomas/certs is a decent way to make a future a tad more secure.


Schools are little more than exam factories these days in the UK, and it's extremely sad really.

That I do agree with..


More creativity and teachers aware of talents? yes please, ofcourse.

Sarford
06-26-2010, 06:32 PM
Pretty strong words.
Can you please quote where I illustrated that?

The man is pleading for more focus on the importance of the arts in education cause until now science is seen as more valuable (if not the only viable option), on which you say:

"I do think the scientific education could use a bit more push for creativity (but that is already happening) in order to create more valorisation, possibilities and economic growth."

Which illustrates (at least to me) that you think the same way, in your eyes science is more important in education that art (in your next post you explain why).


I think it is a mistake to think that only education focused on science can drive economic growth. Advertising is one of the biggest drivers of economic growth and that is an arts based industry. Innovation doesn't only come from engineers but also from designers (industrial, fashion, interior etc). Giving more attention to the arts in education doesn't mean we all have to become dancers.

Hieron
06-27-2010, 05:56 AM
Which illustrates (at least to me) that you think the same way, in your eyes science is more important in education that art (in your next post you explain why).

More is not the same adjective as only. You toned it down here. Don't polarise where it is not needed.


I think it is a mistake to think that only education focused on science can drive economic growth. Advertising is one of the biggest drivers of economic growth and that is an arts based industry. Innovation doesn't only come from engineers but also from designers (industrial, fashion, interior etc). Giving more attention to the arts in education doesn't mean we all have to become dancers.

That wasn't what I said, again. But nevermind, the whole discussion is quite pointless really, if there is only an effort to increase the gap without discussing points brought forward. In my view this guy has a 20 minute talk, full of jokes, making just 1 point with some cheap shots included. Fine. I'm also not amazed it gets alot of support, no one liked math.

If he would have spent a few minutes less on sloooow jokes and more on how he thinks this focus away from sciences can be kept efficient for a country, perhaps backed by some really rough numbers, models, estimates maybe? is it viable, possible even? Then I'd be more impressed. Would students try as hard on math if it is viewed as less important? Would that backfire on a country? Would there be design to do, if technology is lacking compared to neighbouring countries? Is there a big lack of designers out there atm?

But perhaps this is not the right place to question such a popular point.

Cageman
06-27-2010, 06:18 AM
Hmm...

I thought he was talking about means to which an individual can learn things by being creative. Wether it is art or science doesn't really matter, as long as it focus on creativity. That was my conclusion of his lecture.

Hieron
06-27-2010, 06:40 AM
Hmm...

I thought he was talking about means to which an individual can learn things by being creative. Wether it is art or science doesn't really matter, as long as it focus on creativity. That was my conclusion of his lecture.

I completely agree, as said in my first post:



I'm all for creativity and allowing the invididual mind to grow, but ...
..
I do think the scientific education could use a bit more push for creativity ....

Was just not so happy with the way presented, without backing and with some cheap shots at professors etc. It is probably not easy either. And felt the need to defend "science" seeing comments here and comments with that TED channel.

radams
06-27-2010, 10:13 AM
Well, I think we are getting off track.

For me the original point was not that something else was more important...such as science...but that art/creativity were considered less.

I have been fortunate in my life to have personally known several world renown scientists in several fields...

Most of them also played music, painted or did photography as an outlet for themselves.

I think the real point that needs to be made...is that education isn't just one discipline or focus...

To help build and create a better knowledgable child/person...you need to include a variety of educational experiences and stimulus. Art/creativity just being one....

Just because you have art in the program doesn't mean that everyone is expected to be an artist...just like those who study math or science are expected to be scientists of math wizes...either.

It is help grow and build better minds, imagination, problem solving people.

Creativity...imagination are also a part of science...but just giving students facts and figures doesn't help them develop them...where as art can.

We here in the US have been pushing education away from a general overall to more of a focused specific course work...which for me is having our kids loss out.

Cheers,

Sarford
06-27-2010, 03:29 PM
That wasn't what I said, again.


Unless he is suggesting an economy/future of a country is seriously aided by everyone turning to the arts. I'd like to see a country try.


But unless the entire world drops it, the select countries that do will fall behind economically over time.

It was my reaction to your opinion quoted above. My view, is that the arts sector is an equaly importent contributor and that it probably isn't as dark as you paint it. That was the reason and the point of my reply.



Just because you have art in the program doesn't mean that everyone is expected to be an artist...just like those who study math or science are expected to be scientists of math wizes...either.

It is help grow and build better minds, imagination, problem solving people.

Creativity...imagination are also a part of science...but just giving students facts and figures doesn't help them develop them...where as art can.

exactly