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Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 12:51 PM
Hello all,

I need some advice.
I need to render a very large image for a massive hoarding (Bill Board).
It is 50000mm x 2438mm in size and theyt are printing not tyhe ususal 72 dpi but magazine full resolution print.
I need to create a long thin render that needs to be as large as possible with a minimum of 5000mm x 244mm at 300dpi.
I keep running in render out of memory issues.

Any suggestions would be really great.

I am currently using an orthographic camera and moving the camera along while rendering at 3000 pixels tall by 1000 pixels wide and sliding the camera along step by step.

Using LW 9.6 on Mac in 32 bit mode.
3D model is about 2 million polygons and 160megs in textures.

Kind Regards,
Nigel

a sandwhich
06-09-2010, 01:00 PM
What computer are you using?

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 01:08 PM
Hi Sandwich,

I am using a Mac G5 dual quad core with about 16gig of ram.
Using OS X 8.5

Regards,
Nigel

a sandwhich
06-09-2010, 01:13 PM
Do you have access to photoshop? Because I would do what you are doing with small renders of the scene, but make them smaller, then load all of them into photoshop and panostich them together using a new document with a resolution larger than what you need. Then save it with photoshop large document format. This has worked for me in the past.

Hieron
06-09-2010, 01:15 PM
16GB of ram on 32 bit OS? Especially now RAM would be sooo needed.

Not sure what suggestion to give... look for a 64 bit OS install if you have the time or another workstation. Or look for the biggest image size you can render without having it run out and move the camera even more per frame..

But if you can't even render 3kx1k and need 50m x 2.4m at high res.....

Then again, it's retarded to do print res for a 50 meters high billboard. Even if you could render it in parts, I wouldn't want to be the one to put it together in Pshop, on a 32 bit pc or 64 :)

nickdigital
06-09-2010, 01:21 PM
Could try rendering smaller and then using the Photoshop plugin Genuine Fractals to uprez it.

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 01:23 PM
Thanks chaps,
I am doing bit renders and I set it off already hoping to go back in in the morning not to see any memory errors.
Will stitch them all together in photoshop.
The minimum print res size has to be 5000mm x 244mm at 300dpi

Can't seem to get my 64 bit version of LightWave3D to work.
Always having license issues with it and so only works in demo mode.

I was wondering what other ways anyone is doing ridiculously large renders for similar jobs and how it is approached.

Regards,
Nigel

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 01:25 PM
Hello NickDigital,

Yes I intend to do that at the end although I am never really ever happy with Genuine Fractals photoshop plug-in but I will use it to up the quality about twenty percent or so.

Regards,
Nigel

a sandwhich
06-09-2010, 01:29 PM
How close will people be getting to this bill board?

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Hey Sandwich,

Usually if it is for billboard would be using 72 dpi.
But this hoarding runs along a footpath for 500m and is proximately 3m high so it is more like a full colour art magazine.
It is printed in CMYK onto a wooden panel vinyl based facing which is
then laminated with an anti-graffiti film for protection.

So people will be able to eye ball this.

Regards,
Nigel

a sandwhich
06-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Oh. I knew the typical res, but hmm. Do you have access to a supercomputer? lol. I don't know of any other advice besides whats already been thrown out. Sorry.

Hieron
06-09-2010, 01:40 PM
I've seen you use 50, 5 and 500 meters :) What resolution do you actually need?

5m x 300 dpi = 59k pixels wide.... just saying :)

I did a 30k pixel wide render a few months ago, had a thread about this here. It may be a few pages back from the front page. Worked fine here but 64 bit surely helps.

You do know you have to register the 64 bit license seperately right? (been a while since I did it, but it is listed seperately). But I guess you know this.

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 01:49 PM
Hello Hieron,

The printers need a minimum of 5000mm x 244mm at 300dpi.
My aim is to print the biggest slice of a render at 3000pixels by 1000mm.
When I heard what the printers where looking for I nearly fell over.
The other thing that pass my mind was to send it off to a render farm but thats an additional cost.

Regards,
Nigel

Chris S. (Fez)
06-09-2010, 02:05 PM
Render at 120 - 150 DPI. Highly unlikely anyone one will know the difference.

shrox
06-09-2010, 02:07 PM
Render at 120 - 150 DPI. Highly unlikely anyone one will know the difference.

Then scale up in Photoshop or whatever you use. Unless it is to show off the printer, it should be fine like Fez said.

Hieron
06-09-2010, 02:09 PM
But 5000mm is only 5 meters.. by .244 meter. While you seem to need 50 meters by 2m 44 cm.. no?

Regardless, that's like 60k pixels wide :)

If you want to stay clear from renderfarms, I'd invest some more time in getting 64 bit LW up there and make use of the 16 GB you got. Do you have a small farm of your own?

Then I'd suggest indeed to do a full height render but squeeze in as many wide pixels as you can and memory allows, and scan your camera to sweep the entire thing. There's some plugins that may do some, but this should work as well.

You don't necessarily need an ortho camera, you can use the shift cam as well, and shift the "backplane" sideways. That would allow a perspective, while also allowing to sweep the image. Then have your pc/nodes render out the frame needed. Possible even +- 50 of them and stitch that in say Pshop.

But Pshop won't be very happy with such an image as well... But it should be possible in 64 bit. There is a good chance their laminate coating has grain in it, making the 300 dpi print look less sharp.

ps: if you res up, use ie. unsharp mask to get that supersharp look back.

shrox
06-09-2010, 02:16 PM
...There is a good chance their laminate coating has grain in it, making the 300 dpi print look less sharp.

Good point, if you can see a sample of their finished output, you'll have a much better idea of what is needed.

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 02:19 PM
Hi Chaps,

Well if the render crashes my next step again will to render at a lower resolution. But I will definitely look at the 120 – 150 dpi issue.

if anyone has other suggestions at this stage they are still very much welcomed, we always forget the simple things in front of us, especially when one is pulling their hair out… : )

Regards,
Nigel

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 02:24 PM
Hello Heiron,

Yes I know in scale it comes down to 24cm in height but 5m long.
It still is very large. I have seen some vector work of this kind on hoarding before but no where as large and they really are very well finished. It is like an art magazine. But that is the great thing about vector graphics.

I must remember after using Genuine Fractal to use un-sharp, thank you for that.


Regards,
Nigel

Hieron
06-09-2010, 02:35 PM
Are you absolutely sure LW 64 bit won't work? If the deadline is tomorrow, don't bother. But otherwise it is a good option......

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 02:39 PM
Hey Heiron,

Thanks for hanging in there with me.
Yes the 64 version will not work for me.
Today I tried several swopping of licenses numbers and locations for the license.key to see if one of them would work.
While you are there and if you are using a Mac, where do you keep your license.key file and is it for LW 9.61 or LWHC?

Regards,
Nigel

Ztreem
06-09-2010, 02:41 PM
Check this thread out.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57728&highlight=render

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 02:46 PM
Hello Ztreem,

Thank you for that, I will have a full read of it and see if it is much different to what I am doing.
It is great to see what Thomas M. has done and very nicely presented, Thomas if you are listening, THANK YOU VERY MUCH |—)

Regards,
Nigel

Hieron
06-09-2010, 02:50 PM
Nigel, I said it before in my thread about 30k pixel rendering. But while Thomas did a nice job in 2006, it is outdated and way more difficult than it has to be nowadays.

My example is simpler, or the other way suggested in that thread (month old? maybe 2) by Gerardo I think (could require HDRI3D mag for his case)


About license: I do not have a Mac so can't tell you. Just make sure you use a license key specifically for 64 bit and not your 32 bit one. Other than that, no clue. In windows it is normally in the Programs dir.


edit: the thread was http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108740&highlight=30k
in your case it would be even simpler, just like ortho camera simple. but with perspective.

Nigel Baker
06-09-2010, 03:10 PM
Hi Heiron,

Thanks again, I will read the document fully and also your thread.
I will let you know how thinks turn out or crash… not turn out.

As for the license.key issue I do not believe there is a 64 bit license.key, I have contacted Newtek and am awaiting a reply but by then it will be way too late for this immediate job.

Thank you for everything… everyone.
Any further tips like Genuine Fractal and un-sharp please keep posting.

Regards,
Nigel

Hieron
06-09-2010, 03:13 PM
Made a scene for ya, that does it all. Just import camera to your scene and adapt it (I think you'll see how it work from the topview).

Took me about 2 minutes to setup, and will render 3k high pixels and 1k wide. For 60 frames it does segments, 61 in total.

But it is supereasy to adapt. Suppose you get 64 bit working and can do 6k by 3k renders. So you only need like 11 segments. Just make camera resolution 6kx3k, go into shift camera properties and make the keyframe on frame 0 set to -5. And make a keyframe at frame 10 set to +5.

tada, 11 segments on 11 frames of 6k pixels each, with perspective. No math no hassle.

If you want to preview the full camera view, just set the camera res. to the correct aspect ratio and move the slider to the point of 0 shift (or manually set shift back to 0)

It doesn't get simpler than that.

85512

Hieron
06-09-2010, 03:18 PM
Not sure about Mac, don't you have this:

85513

Nigel Baker
06-10-2010, 10:21 AM
Hello Hieron,

That was most kind of you. Really appreciate the time you took.
I did try your file and got massive distortion – because the design is of a long tram the top front and ends of the Tram are so distorted you can not recognise them as a tram cab
.
This morning when I got into work the memory error was there waiting for me and no renders. But after importing your scene into my scene and using your camera but changed it back to the orthographic camera but used the 3000 pixels by the 1000 pixels frame I can render 3-4 frames before the render runs out of memory so slow news but good news.

Thanks again for your help and to everyone for the tips.
When it is all done and wrapped up and installed I shall try to get some photos and post them.

Regards,
Nigel

Iain
06-10-2010, 11:31 AM
Too late to be of any use Nigel, I know, but do you have fprime?

A year or two ago, using my old P4 heap of junk, I managed a few million polygons at 6k using fprime's low ram Targa file format when LW struggled with renders half that size.

They had to be done quick too (I was up all night if I remember) so I de-noised them using the same sample in Neat Image.
Worth remembering when nothing else works.

Nigel Baker
06-10-2010, 12:16 PM
Hello Iain,

Thank you for that, I was looking at FPrime today but then just tabbed pasted it.
Never thought it would handle such a size. — I will see how things go when I get back in too work in the morning.
It is good to see the format also that you rendered too.

Regards,
Nigel

Hieron
06-10-2010, 01:24 PM
You run out of RAM after a few frames? That's odd, it usually flushes the RAM I thought... never had an issue.. I assume you do have a 64 bit license registered as the image I showed? Unless Mac doesn't have such an option.. 64 bit is so important to you now, I would've found other means to get it working...


Yes, that camera is hugely distorted, I have no idea what your scene looks like so I kept the normal 24mm camera. But you would need some high mm amount I suppose for that wide. Or orthographic indeed, if it works for you.

Best of luck!

Nigel Baker
06-10-2010, 01:56 PM
Hello Hieron,

Thanks again, I have to keep rolling with what I have.
My license issues for 64 bit will not be sorted until next week probably.
But by then this drama will be over and a lesson well learnt and I probably will not have another job like this for another year if ever.

Like what are the chances you are asked to prepare art work for a500 m wall.
Go Figure : )

Thanks again and this is an essential item it seems that pops up every now and again so should be kept on tap for others.


Regards,
Nigel

Soth
06-10-2010, 02:34 PM
Thanks again, I have to keep rolling with what I have.

Maybe I can help, contact me on Skype or PM. :)

Nigel Baker
06-10-2010, 02:41 PM
Hello Soth,

I can not do anything right now for I am not in work.

Regards,
Nigel

moussepipi2000
06-10-2010, 08:31 PM
how about this thread ?
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57728

Nigel Baker
06-11-2010, 10:38 AM
Hello All,

I got the render finished, sliced up into 31 single images of 3000 pixels tall by 1000 pixels wide.
Sowed them all together in photoshop – learnt something new about photoshop.
Opened up the first slice. I needed to render using the orthographic camera because using the shift camera created too much lens distortion.
Once I brought in the second image I would open up the canvas size and extended the width to the right. Then once the image went past a
certain size not sure what it was (3000 pixels – but it was about slice 29 – 30, so that would mean 3,000 pixels
Photoshop gave me a warning saying it can not handle sizes of that or bigger.So I had to save it as a layered Tiff and I think I lots some of photoshops functions - like filters.

Once all was stitched I saved a flattened file and ran Genuine Fractals… I have had it for years now and hardly ever used it but today I was very grateful for it : )
Ran the Un-sharp mask filter and then decided to up the dpi again using Genuine Fractals – first time round I went from 72 dpi to 150 dpi as recommended earlier (thanks ).
Then decided to up the dpi a little bit more. Did some retouching with photoshop and then sent it off to the graphic designers to add it to their work. The Tram I rendered is just the centre piece to someone else's work.

So all is done and dusted and that's another job off my desk today, although what a journey. Thank you to everyone who pitched in and helped out.

When the job is printed and on public display I will find out where it is and get a photograph of it both far and a close up to see how the detail held.


Thank you and take care.
Regards,
Nigel

Hieron
06-11-2010, 12:46 PM
Happy to hear you got it out of the door and done!

A bit of a extra note though: the shift cam thing works the way it should, it just has perspective as it should. So if you ever do need some perspective, make sure to move the camera way back and increase the focal length, just as you would when you would try to photograph such a big object. It's exactly the same thing.. Ow and yes, please do put up a photo of it!

ZE_COLMEIA
06-11-2010, 04:54 PM
I hope the next lw will fix this issue.

Hieron
06-11-2010, 04:59 PM
What issue?

ZE_COLMEIA
06-11-2010, 10:17 PM
I think i didnt expressed myself well, i mean, the difficult to have larger renders with with a native pratical solution. (my english isnt that good )

ZE_COLMEIA
06-11-2010, 10:17 PM
I think i didnt expressed myself well, i mean, the difficult to have larger renders with a native pratical solution. (my english isnt that good )

Hieron
06-12-2010, 04:33 AM
The shift camera thing works very well, and is native, and is practical.

Or just use up to 16k pixels and massive amounts of RAM and 64 bit. It's not a LW issue per se.

Soth
06-12-2010, 04:37 AM
Or just use up to 16k pixels and massive amounts of RAM and 64 bit. It's not a LW issue per se.
I wonder what is the point of having 16k limit? I can render 16k images easily here, so why we are restricted? :(

Hieron
06-12-2010, 04:39 AM
Ah well, ok, that's a good point actually :)
Maybe LWHC has it higher?

Matt
06-12-2010, 04:56 AM
Only way is to split the scene up into parts, this plugin does it:

http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/scene.htm#DivideScene

Hieron
06-12-2010, 06:02 AM
Only way is to split the scene up into parts, this plugin does it:

http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/scene.htm#DivideScene


? No it doesn't. That plugin only cuts it in limited regions. It may have it's uses but can not be used to render above 16k pixels easily.

The Shift Cam is perfect for that and keeps it all in 1 scene and is native and can be adapted to do alot of these things.

Soth
06-12-2010, 07:37 AM
Ah well, ok, that's a good point actually :)
Maybe LWHC has it higher?

No it does not, this 16000 sounds like really artificial restriction, LightWave render engine is fast enough to render bigger images w/o doing some crazy and time consuming tricks. :devil:

Hieron
06-12-2010, 07:43 AM
For many things, memory is an early issue even on some 64 bit machines. But no idea why it is limited... My guess is that at some point, a few of the export options can't cope with it. Just like that Pshop starts limiting your options when going to biiig sizes.

I guess limiting export options based on rendersize could be possible in that regard, just more work to implement..