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cgisoul
05-30-2010, 12:42 AM
Hi,

Just sold my modo license for reasons not important here.

Between the 2 items what would you choose?

1. CORE
or
2. Nvidia GTX 480 (or wait and get 2nd generation card) + Octane Render (http://www.refractivesoftware.com/)

I need an app with a good render engine where I can also setup materials, lights and camera. Octane looks like the app I need. However, CORE looks like does it all...

So, what would you choose in long term?

Thank you for your opinion.

cresshead
05-30-2010, 01:36 AM
with siggraph just a couple or so months away...if you can hold on until all the new stuff is revealed at the show then i would do just that...then make a better informed choice and not kick yourself for being too quick!

Cageman
05-30-2010, 02:22 AM
The renderer in CORE looks and feels promising, but that is pretty much all I can say about it. As Cresshead pointed out, if you can wait until Siggraph, that is what you should do.

I'm not sure if you own LW9.6 or not, but at least I know that the renderer in LW9.6 is pretty solid.

A co-worker has bought Octane and is very happy about it, though it is very limited at the moment and it seems to not yet support .mtl files (among many other things). But the developers of Octane are working quite fast, and what I heard, .mtl will come later on.

Octane is also limited by the avaliable GFX-memory, so even if it quite possibly would be able to render about 50% of what we do alot faster (refering to what we do at work in the Cinematics team), we would run out of memory quite fast and spend alot of time splitting scenes up into alot smaller chunks.

So I guess it all depends on what you do and want to do in the future vs what the application(s) allows you to do from the moment you purchase it.

EDIT: For long term, I think CORE is promising and worth keeping an eye on. A purchase of CORE will also give you next version of LightWave, you end up with 3 apps that can produce what is needed in many cases, but you have to keep in mind that CORE is a WIP application (hence the inclusion of next version of LW). You should think long and hard about what features you find in LightWave that you don't find in Modo and how well those features fits the bill, and how these features might be used in conjunction with CORE (as stated, when purchasing CORE you also get LWHC).

I whish I could tell you more about the stuff comming in LWHC, but it is really up to NT to let people know when the time is right. Safe to say though, is that some small, but non the less frustrating issues, seem to have been resolved in the new version.

Captain Obvious
05-30-2010, 02:29 AM
I think you need to stop focusing so much on which app you should or should not use, and just get some work done with the tools you have. Spend the money on beer*, and use LW9.


*beer, in this instance, does not literally mean beer. Just anything indulgent.

cgisoul
05-30-2010, 02:41 AM
@cresshead,

I might just do that. Thank you for your advise m8.

@chunderburger,

"its only got 3 material types".

What do you mean?

@neverko,

At work, I have 3ds max 2011, at home I am looking for an alternative.
I heard that Octane is really good and blazing fast like you said. My main work is mainly character/creature works.

@Cageman

I don't own LW besides.

I model everything in Silo/Hex, sculpt and paint in Zbrush and now I need a new render engine where I can apply bump,color,displace,normal maps and do all the light and camera setups and finally render everything out.

I am not in a rush to get it, but I do like the idea of growing with a new app like CORE. But if Octane can do just exactly what I need as described above, I might consider just to get Octane and a new Nvidia card since I am using an old ATI FireGL V.5600 and Octane doesn't support ATI cards (period).

Thank you all for the constructive crits. Appreciated.

Captain Obvious
05-30-2010, 05:59 AM
I model everything in Silo/Hex, sculpt and paint in Zbrush and now I need a new render engine where I can apply bump,color,displace,normal maps and do all the light and camera setups and finally render everything out.
Why not render in Zbrush, then? You can use it for final output. It's not exactly the same as a full-blown 3D app, but it certainly does the job.

Out of curiosity, what did you find unsatisfying about modo? I've used it plenty of times to apply textures, displacement maps, normal maps, etc, and rendering out the results. Works fine. modo has some issues, yes, but I've had less issues with it vis a vis rendering out Zbrush models than I've had in any other piece of software (LW, XSI, and probably a few more). Though my XSI issues are probably just because I never really managed to learn it properly. :p In all honesty, out of every application I've ever tried, modo is the one that lets you go from zero to image in the least amount of time with the least faffing about. All the problems with modo are when you're trying to do complicated stuff. If all you need to do is render a nice hero shot of a character on its own, modo is, in my own professional opinion, the premier application on the market today. It has a fast renderer that supports very high polygon counts with subd/displacement mapped models, setting up shading and texturing is a piece of cake and very straightforward. Sure, it lacks the flexibility and some of the power of full studio apps (like LW, Maya, etc), but for sheer effort-to-product ratio for simple stuff, it is quite literally unbeatable.


Honestly though, if all you need is something to render out stuff like that, go Blender. Seriously. For realz. Download Blender. Learn how to use it. By the sounds of it, you're doing this either as a hobby or to produce showreel material. It makes no sense spending money on software when the free/open source alternatives are just as good as the commercial alternatives for what you need.


There is no piece of software in the world today that will let you do any kind of art unless you're willing to spend time doing it. 3D is difficult, regardless of the application. You did your avatar, right? You obviously know how to do stuff. So stop worrying about buying the right app. Stop worrying about investing your money with the right company.


Download Blender. Don't like it? Well, at least it was free!


If modo was unsatisfying, then everything else will probably be unsatisfying as well. Which would you rather do? Spend a few weeks learning how to work around the limitations of one application, or spend a few weeks learning one application, only to dump it, switch to another, and learn that instead? What do you think will be better for your creativity? What do you think will be better for your general artistic skill?


It's not the application producing imagery. It's you!





Besides, as others have mentioned, Octane is a pretty crappy choice right now for what you need.

gerry_g
05-30-2010, 07:35 AM
Put Octane render on my MacBook Pro (going half price ATM couldn't resist it) but the gotcha here that strikes me is that its performance is entirely geared to the card you have in your system, in other words to get the really kick-*** speed they tout you need either one or two very high end cards and ones with very good vram buffers (1Gig min at least), the cost of all this compared to buying a reasonable software package with a built in realtime renderer such as Modo or whatever Core finally delivers makes it a no brainer, give me a full software package any day and as every one else is saying (reading between the lines) learn to model and stop blaming the software.

gerry_g
05-30-2010, 08:24 AM
"Putting Oactane on a low powered laptop is not a good idea." Yes I know, purely for evaluation will transfer license to Mac workstation as soon as Apple get their fingers out their collective asses and release a refresh to line , point I was making that the wonga spent on getting good GPU based rendering would probably be better spent on a fully kitted out 3D app with built in realtime renderer and cheaper too.

hrgiger
05-30-2010, 08:40 AM
Well, I'm guessing the CORE renderer is not going to be drastically different then the current Lightwave renderer since a lot of the work that went into all the rendering improvements in v9 had CORE in mind. But as Neverko said, it is a work in progress and we can't be sure that the renderer will be full featured for this first version.

I also think Neverko made a good suggestion about using Blender for your rendering. It's free, and maybe it will buy you some time to make a more informed decision after Siggraph.

Modo rendering is fine but maybe it's the shading tree you dont' like? Can't argue with that.

geo_n
05-30-2010, 08:50 AM
I would choose lightwave. It can do modelling, rendering, animation and effects.
Just bought octane because I want to know if this gpu technology is the way to go or just hype and for 60US its a better deal than arion. But I have yet to see a render that isn't noiseless unless you bake it as long as you render in lightwave. And octane is still so early in its development like core.
If you really just need to model and render I suggest sketchup with vray. You will get the best renderer in the market without getting involved with AD.
Btw why would you spam lw forums with your ad for sale of modo if you didn't own lightwave in the first place.

cgisoul
05-30-2010, 10:00 AM
@neverko,

Thank you for your comments. Blender I heard good things about it but no, I haven't try it. I guess I should.
After reading more info about Octane and your comments, without SSS and displacement is certainly a no go for me.


@geo_n,

"Btw why would you spam lw forums with your ad for sale of modo if you didn't own lightwave in the first place."
Did I? I certainly didn't mean to. Sorry if that caused you some sort of unhappiness.
"I would choose lightwave"
I might just take your advise. Thank you.


@Captain Obvious,

Yes, I built my avatar, thanks for the compliment.
Why not modo? I would rather keep it unanswered.
I agree, with some good zb renders and PS composite, the final results can be stunning. But it will definitely miss the 3d full blow light setting as zb lighting is horrible.
To kill your (or anyone else) curiosity, I am not a professional 3D artist. I have been designing / building websites professionally for the last 16 years though, that's my forte ( http://www.mduque.com ) and the last few years and when time allowed, I have tried to do as much 3D as I could/can.
After reading all the comments/opinions, I am inclined on CORE, despite not being a full app. Crazy idea indeed going from modo to CORE (WIP app).
Thank you CO for your professional opinion, appreciated as always.



Okay everyone, this thread has been indeed very helpful, with some really good comments. A very good thread indeed.
Thank you all for your POVs. It has certainly help me make a decision.

cgisoul
05-30-2010, 11:36 AM
http://www.refractivesoftware.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1835&p=19022#p19022 (http://www.refractivesoftware.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1835&p=19022#p19022)

By Radiance from Octane Forum:

"sss and displacement is for the future v2.0
a lightwave plugin is currently being evaluated. (although a modo plugin has started development already)

Radiance"

Nemoid
05-31-2010, 03:56 AM
You could just go -cough cough - Lw 9.6 for now, and then see if CORE fullfills your needs. I actually don't see particular needs in your request. Probably Modo was your best choice tho .

borkus
06-01-2010, 06:53 AM
Checked out your website and the cg art section has some pretty cool stuff.

Sonk
06-01-2010, 04:41 PM
pffft use Sculptris its free and awesome :D

Intuition
06-01-2010, 06:10 PM
There really is no faster solution for SSS and micropoly displacement then modo right now.

You really gave up on probably the most capable app save for the CA work you mentioned.

Can't comment on Core since its a psuedo NDA that I will help uphold.

Only that as much potential as Core shows and as amazing as it will be, at the moment I don't use it for production work. I do use modo alot for modeling though and for work viz for bidding work its really 2nd to none.

The modo render preview works with SSS nicely. I mean you could go f-prime but its not as robust as it used to be. I

suppose since you want o get into Core you will get LW with it anyways and could go the LW route. I still would do modo instead if givena choice but, you already sold modo so I know you don't want to look back. Which is a bummer because it has the fastest workflow out of all the apps you are considering and the best render engine as well.

Octane has a ways to go. Will be neat given some time. Just like core. Yet it will be a maxwell/fryrender style renderer. Which may be what you want.

I can't comment on blender other then I never really liked the interface much even though I hear its tons better now.

I don't really care for LW SSS. Not really fast or accurate imo. I mean it can look great but when compared to the modo or Vray methods its slow and soft. Also, the displacemet method in LW is another one of its weak spots. I like how it shows you in openGL the amount of displacement though, thats cool.

Well, have fun in whatever you choose. :)

jasonwestmas
06-01-2010, 06:54 PM
If you are obsessed with tiny little details for Character Rendering, you may want to learn/use MentalRay or even Renderman. If you are on a Budget and have more of a stylistic approach to rendering just use Lightwave with LOTS of Ram and Damn fast Processor(s), you'll be able to get your character shot up to at least 8-10 million polygons using pixel per poly if you have 8GB of Ram. The key with using lightwave for geometric detail is mainly Lots of Ram and smart usage of tangent normal maps imo.

Also I wouldn't really worry too much about LW sss speed unless you plan on doing full body naked characters. Otherwise it's not really an issue ;) There is G2 as well which is fast and can work for a lot of shots.

monovich
06-01-2010, 10:38 PM
The modo render preview works with SSS nicely. I mean you could go f-prime but its not as robust as it used to be.


huh? fprime may not be perfect but its pretty damn robust. it doesn't work with 100% of lightwave's features but it gets a lot of them right.

I am constantly delivering final work rendered in fprime. Its usually a toss-up whether or not to use native or fprime, and its nice to have the option because bother are better at one thing or another.

As I write this an upcoming nationally broadcast car commercial is rendering with fprime in the background.

Captain Obvious
06-02-2010, 04:07 AM
f you are on a Budget and have more of a stylistic approach to rendering just use Lightwave with LOTS of Ram and Damn fast Processor(s), you'll be able to get your character shot up to at least 8-10 million polygons using pixel per poly if you have 8GB of Ram
Unless you've got enormous image maps or are rendering to a crazy resolution, you could easily squeeze in even greater polygon counts than that. I've been pushing 8 million on a system with *four* gigs of memory!




huh? fprime may not be perfect but its pretty damn robust. it doesn't work with 100% of lightwave's features but it gets a lot of them right.
He may have been referring to previewing subsurface scattering; FPrime is very limited in that regard. It works perfectly fine with G2's SSS, of course, and Lightwave's own "Simple Skin" node works too. But the more advanced SSS node shaders require preprocessing, and this does NOT work in FPrime. Also, FPrime cannot preview gamma corrected rendering. This is the primary reason that I pretty much stopped using it for anything other than previewing lighting positions.

cgisoul
06-02-2010, 06:42 AM
borkus, thank you for the nice words.

Very useful information indeed. I honestly might be the very few on Earth who hates modeling in modo. Honest word, my only two apps I love do modeling (period) is Silo and Hex. Some swear modo is the best, for me I never liked it. That just me and few others I know.

For now, this is my spec: Win 7 Pro 64 bits | Core i7 860 - 2.8 GHz| Gigabyte P55A-UD4 | 8 GB | ATI FireGL v.5600

I simply don't like modo even being the only one here. Sold it and I don't regret the decision at all. Some might say that this guy nuts. Well, I don't do 3D for living, so I guess I can live with that ;)
Now what I am not so sure is if I should get an GTX 480 or CORE, given I can only get one thing now. My friend Sonk will certainly tell me to wait 6 months before getting the GTX 480.

scratch33
06-02-2010, 08:15 AM
Frankly, for 49 euro until June 4, you can quietly buy octane render. I use it with an old 8800 GTX and it works perfectly good.

jasonwestmas
06-02-2010, 08:19 AM
Unless you've got enormous image maps or are rendering to a crazy resolution, you could easily squeeze in even greater polygon counts than that. I've been pushing 8 million on a system with *four* gigs of memory!


Yeah that's a good thing to think about too!

Andyjaggy
06-02-2010, 08:46 AM
I simply don't like modo even being the only one here. Sold it and I don't regret the decision at all. Some might say that this guy nuts. Well, I don't do 3D for living, so I guess I can live with

Well you simply like what you like for whatever reasons. There is no right or wrong, just good work or bad work, and the speed at which it gets you there. :)

jasonwestmas
06-02-2010, 08:55 AM
For now, this is my spec: Win 7 Pro 64 bits | Core i7 860 - 2.8 GHz| Gigabyte P55A-UD4 | 8 GB | ATI FireGL v.5600

I simply don't like modo even being the only one here. Sold it and I don't regret the decision at all. Some might say that this guy nuts. Well, I don't do 3D for living, so I guess I can live with that ;)
Now what I am not so sure is if I should get an GTX 480 or CORE, given I can only get one thing now. My friend Sonk will certainly tell me to wait 6 months before getting the GTX 480.

Um, yeah that rig will get you by just fine with high detail lightwave rendering. LW does have its short comings but there is more you can do with LW rendering than modo. Particles, fluid/gas plugins, dynamics etc.

Edit: Core is most likely going to be Dynamics Heavy (Bullet) within the next year or two. So I think that will be a nice investment if you are interested in that.

cgisoul
06-02-2010, 09:24 AM
For the moment it costs $895 and I get LW, LW CORE, updates and a free tshirt too, how great is that ;) Once CORE is out it will cost $1495 and no free tshirt! Plus LW has it all and above all, growing up with a new application and following its development, that's very interesting. After the modo sale, I now only need to pay $400 dollars to get LW and CORE. Nice deal I believe. That would have been +/- the $ for the next modo upgrade I would "had" to pay.

praa
06-03-2010, 11:13 AM
i just can't beleive that newtek will overlook GPGPU (openCL) rendering in CORE...

so things like octane are experiments that will be included this year in any renderer pretending to be "current"

jasonwestmas
06-03-2010, 11:55 AM
i just can't beleive that newtek will overlook GPGPU (openCL) rendering in CORE...

so things like octane are experiments that will be included this year in any renderer pretending to be "current"

Makes more sense to use the Core rendering engine they have now and get that finished before dabbling in a brand new rendering system. There may be a 3rd party solution in the future I would think.

hrgiger
06-03-2010, 12:30 PM
i just can't beleive that newtek will overlook GPGPU (openCL) rendering in CORE...



How do you know they are?

Captain Obvious
06-04-2010, 08:19 AM
i just can't beleive that newtek will overlook GPGPU (openCL) rendering in CORE...
Because there are a billion limitations.

praa
06-04-2010, 10:52 AM
Because there are a billion limitations.

I am not saying that all rendering should be GPU related but thay should at least split the pipeline so parts of the render is calculated by the GPU (like Ambient Occlusion)

and by splitting the render stages we would be more competitive with easier post-production ...

jasonwestmas
06-04-2010, 11:01 AM
I am not saying that all rendering should be GPU related but thay should at least split the pipeline so parts of the render is calculated by the GPU (like Ambient Occlusion)

and by splitting the render stages we would be more competitive with easier post-production ...

You must've missed the part where NT said they were developing Real Time AO. That may change but they did mention it.

Captain Obvious
06-04-2010, 12:01 PM
I am not saying that all rendering should be GPU related but thay should at least split the pipeline so parts of the render is calculated by the GPU (like Ambient Occlusion)
That does not really have any impact at all with the limitations of GPU-based rendering, however.




You must've missed the part where NT said they were developing Real Time AO. That may change but they did mention it.
Yeah, screen-space AO for the viewport. That's not GPU-accelerated offline rendering.

silviotoledo
04-13-2011, 09:37 AM
Please help me doing this comparison test:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1131650#post1131650

JonW
04-13-2011, 02:35 PM
Here is one I set up to do a comparison, as best as I could. I don't see a lot of difference in speed, for me taking various factors into account I prefer LW.