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shrox
05-10-2010, 01:15 PM
Kind of rant...

Occasional someone will post that they have some work they need done and are willing to pay. I have responded to some, four times reached agreements, then never heard from the poster again about the "work".

If it's not going to happen, say so.

If you chose someone else after already making an agreement with me, that's not good, and not professional.

Obviously if I can post here, you can reach me.

And, as always...I'd be done by now...

Nangleator
05-10-2010, 01:37 PM
The world just wants you to obsess over every word of your response or interview.

You must have done something wrong!

Chris S. (Fez)
05-10-2010, 01:42 PM
Shrox,

I don't dispute that such scenarios are frustrating but I doubt anyone approached you in bad faith. These are extremely volatile times...for employers as well as employees.

Therapeutic though they may be, I think threads like these are ill advised. Phantom jobs sometimes actually do materialize.

Just my opinion.

shrox
05-10-2010, 01:56 PM
Shrox,

I don't dispute that such scenarios are frustrating but I doubt anyone approached you in bad faith. These are extremely volatile times...for employers as well as employees.

Therapeutic though they may be, I think threads like these are ill advised. Phantom jobs sometimes actually do materialize.

Just my opinion.

I don't either, but I make the time and effort to respond, then wait for the reference and stuff to start, then nothing.

I mentioned no one, so it could be anybody.

But the repeated pattern might show while we can be informal in the forums, we need to be serious about work and job matters. It's just good professionalism. Maybe I stepped out a bit here, or I am old and have outdated ideas about work, but I think it's something that needs to addressed if jobs/work are to be offered here by private parties.

geothefaust
05-10-2010, 02:45 PM
I don't think you're outdated Shrox, I happen to completely agree with you on this type of stuff. People can't hold up their own end of business these days. Most people that is...


What happened to the day when people did what they said, and said what they did? You know, not being unreliable?


Word is Bond.

sandman300
05-10-2010, 03:01 PM
I posted a while back looking for an artist. The one person that did respond suddenly stopped sending work and refused to respond to any emails so I don't even know why. And I know he posts here regularly.

shrox
05-10-2010, 03:13 PM
I posted a while back looking for an artist. The one person that did respond suddenly stopped sending work and refused to respond to any emails so I don't even know why. And I know he posts here regularly.

There is that too, if you accept a job you should complete it, or make arrangements for it's completion if you get hurt, or maybe even just overwhelmed.

sampei
05-10-2010, 06:04 PM
yeah completely agree with you shrox, but it has nothing to do with being old fashioned or outdated. It's just plain lack of respect, and I find it infuriating.

JamesCurtis
05-10-2010, 06:20 PM
Agreed to all coments!! :agree:

Titus
05-10-2010, 06:45 PM
I normally hire a team of ninjas, just in case the client feels a desire to disappear before the end of the project.

h2oStudios
05-10-2010, 07:04 PM
:devil:Unfortunately, it's a malady of the freelancing world. If you're not employed by a studio (sometimes, even if you are), you have to, in most cases, rely on such jobs/gigs to make ends meet. This is where written contracts (as to ensure that things don't go wrong... yeah right.) and hired bullsh*t (for when sh*t hits the fan) often come into play. Guess it just comes with the territory.:devil:

sandman300
05-10-2010, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Megalodon
I would almost suggest posting in a forum and requesting that this person RESPOND.

I thought about it but its far too late and I replaced him a while ago. At this point I have nothing to gain, besides, its his loss and will be his regret that he didn't stay with the project.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-10-2010, 08:16 PM
COMPLETELY agree. Are people THAT unprofessional that they can't respond with a courtesy email letting you know that the project is on hold OR will not be done? It's not that difficult and doesn't take that much time to be a responsible business person.


I agree.

However, I think it depends on how speculative the prospective job is. If an employer contacts you and says I like you, I like your work and I would like to work with you when the right project comes along...I would not fault the employer for not contacting you until the right project finally comes along. That can take months if not years. Seriously.

If someone sends you pre-viz sketches and payment terms and cannot be bothered to tell you that funding fell through then that is of course inexcuseable...

h2oStudios
05-10-2010, 10:36 PM
This just goes to show and prove that there definitely isn't a shortage of a**holes in the business.

I guess I should consider myself lucky to be involved in the project I'm on. Where there is always communication of any sort of change, and/or heads-up in regards to "stop and go".

The biggest problem in this business is purely a lack of proper communication. "What it is, and what it isn't" <- it's that simple, but some people out there just seem to have a problem with that elementary concept. A f**king shame it is.

geo_n
05-10-2010, 10:39 PM
This is the reason why I dont go for completely being freelance. The risk nowadays is big especially since the internet makes it easy for things to happen. If you think the client is flaky or project is not pushing through, backout respectfully. I heard in one of Kat Myers webinar that 2 guys he worked with in Cargo didnt get completely paid with large sums of money. Shame.
So when you get good clients make sure you do everything you can to ensure future projects and seal the trust. Ofcourse milestone payments are given. I only keep a few to concentrate on but I also have some experience with troublesome clients. Best to respectfully decline future offers from them.

biliousfrog
05-11-2010, 03:22 AM
We are in very difficult times and some projects are delayed, almost indefinitely, by clients after giving the go-ahead because of fears over wasting money by moving too fast. I've been the guy hiring and also the guy being hired, it's always frustrating being let down at the last minute but it doesn't mean that the job is scrapped, just put on hold. I had one project which I quoted for 4 times over a 3 year period and it still got delayed for a month mid-project...it's just how things are at the moment.

Having said that, it is unprofessional not to keep people in the loop. We're all trying to make money and it's frustrating allocating time to a project which could have been used elsewhere.

From a freelancer's perspective we all need a little patience and understanding, from a business owner's perspective it is important to maintain relationships with all party's involved in a project.

Sleepy
05-11-2010, 04:55 AM
The biggest problem in this business is purely a lack of proper communication. "What it is, and what it isn't" <- it's that simple, but some people out there just seem to have a problem with that elementary concept. A f**king shame it is.

I completely agree with this statement. Really can't be emphasized enough.

90% of my work is in architecture and I find it important to really put down in writing many of the technical details relating to the project, especially for an animated fly-through. I had a client threaten to take me to court over a bit of AA flicker in their final animation. Their budget ran out and their was no more time for refinement...they were really just being picky and impossible to please. These days I make sure a client is under no illusion of what they will or will not get.

Many problems seem to stem from clients not understanding the technicalities involved. Many simply do not understand that rendering animations involves frames and rendering time! They seem to think you setup a camera, press a button and voilą - instant animation.

It is understandable that some clients will be clueless about what is involved when it comes to 3D animation, which is why communication is so so important in our industry.

shrox
05-11-2010, 09:04 AM
I am not calling anyone out specifically, but sometimes a civil public discourse about a general topic is more effective and less abrasive then a direct accounting. The speaker shares a common grievance, and the targeted listener (if they are listening) gets the message while saving face to some extent.

Extenuating circumstances occur, and if that is the case, confrontation is no good and out of place.

inakito
05-11-2010, 09:31 AM
Well Shrox, it happen to me some time ago, and you may know about the story... the studio was based in Cornwall, UK, and the company offering the position was House of Fear...

shrox
05-11-2010, 09:36 AM
Well Shrox, it happen to me some time ago, and you may know about the story... the studio was based in Cornwall, UK, and the company offering the position was House of Fear...

HOL, House of Lies...

But the Trefusis Arms is a great pub in Redruth, Cornwall!

Imatk
05-11-2010, 01:12 PM
I'm with you Shrox.

I seem to get less inquiry about freelance these days since the economy has dumped, but the inquiries I do get I take with a grain of salt since generally (in my experience) about 90 percent of them never amount to anything.

It's unfortunate, but I think there a a lot of folks out there who think that 3d work is "easy" and therefore should be cheap or inexpensive.

I think there's a lot of sticker shock out there and that's why potential clients go away... at least for me.

But again, in my experience, those clients would be more trouble than they're worth so it doesn't really bother me much.

Of course there's overseas workers now in India and Singapore that will work MUCH cheaper but that's a whole other can of worms there.

I think I'm going to maybe become a carpenter... anyone need a deck built?

shrox
05-11-2010, 01:43 PM
I only take work from people I trust will pay, and professional members of this forum have a higher level of such with me. So when something like this happens, it seems to fray the fabric of the community a bit.

Party on Garth...

JeffrySG
05-11-2010, 02:54 PM
I totally agree with you!! I'm always amazed at the lack of professionalism with some people and companies. If the jobs get canceled they should at least have the courtesy to let you know if they have already made arrangements with you.

This is also the case with large companies too, btw. A few years back I had interviewed with one of the biggest companies in the US of my field at the time (exhibit design). I had three phone interviews then took a day off of work so I could go into their studio to interview with their head of design. They said they would let me know in a week or two. Didn't hear anything. Called to find out what had happened and they wouldn't return my phone calls. Total lack of professionalism from a company that I wouldn't expect this from. At least have the courtesy to say you didn't get the position for reason 'x'. Or that they are not filling the position, etc. It takes 5min to do this. Turns out they were going through some major staff changes but just let me know that. When I was doing the hiring for my department I would always call back every single person who came in for an interview. I couldn't even think NOT to do this. I didn't reply to every person who applied but if they came in of course I would let them know!

shrox
05-11-2010, 03:32 PM
I totally agree with you!! I'm always amazed at the lack of professionalism with some people and companies. If the jobs get canceled they should at least have the courtesy to let you know if they have already made arrangements with you.

This is also the case with large companies too, btw. A few years back I had interviewed with one of the biggest companies in the US of my field at the time (exhibit design). I had three phone interviews then took a day off of work so I could go into their studio to interview with their head of design. They said they would let me know in a week or two. Didn't hear anything. Called to find out what had happened and they wouldn't return my phone calls. Total lack of professionalism from a company that I wouldn't expect this from. At least have the courtesy to say you didn't get the position for reason 'x'. Or that they are not filling the position, etc. It takes 5min to do this. Turns out they were going through some major staff changes but just let me know that. When I was doing the hiring for my department I would always call back every single person who came in for an interview. I couldn't even think NOT to do this. I didn't reply to every person who applied but if they came in of course I would let them know!

I have an even better story! In 1997 Microprose flew me from SF to Austin, put me up in a nice hotel for a few days, showed me around, then at the interview told me they were shutting down! I guess they were just going through the motions in their final week....

JeffrySG
05-11-2010, 03:35 PM
I have an even better story! In 1997 Microprose flew me from SF to Austin, put me up in a nice hotel for a few days, showed me around, then at the interview told me they were shutting down! I guess they were just going through the motions in their final week....

That really is crazy. Hopefully you had some good food on their dime!

monovich
05-11-2010, 05:09 PM
Here are a few random disorganized thoughts on the subject:

In my experience as a freelancer, people call you at the last possible moment when they need you, and often times they don't bother to write back if you ask questions or are otherwise not PERFECTLY suited for their task. Offsite? Good luck! Curious about the creative before you commit? Have some time but not a blank schedule? All these types of things make clients/producers go away and never write back. Its lame but there it is.

Freelancers are commodities, and are treated as such by at least 70% of the people I work with. I do get offended at this, but I've also taught myself NOT to be offended (as much) because its wasted energy. As a freelancer you are way too low on the totem pole to get respect from a rushed client/producer, so do what you can to get the job, get paid and be happy with that until you move up the totem pole and have more weight to throw around.

When I work with other freelancers or I'm doing the hiring, I try to write everyone back, but getting 70 emails with portfolios sometimes makes that impossible. If there are just a dozen emails I'll respond to everyone. In this last case where I posted here I posted "position filled" in the original thread, and I wrote back to the half-dozen stand-out modelers to let them know I was filing their names away for future use.

If I do engage someone on a project I never just disappear and stop communicating, even if the job goes away. That is just totally lame. If hit happens to me though... what can I really do? Life goes on.

If I put out a request for portfolios, and some guy half-a$$es an email and attaches a few crappy jpegs, he hasn't given me professional courtesy by presenting his work well and telling me what I need to know about hiring him.I won't reciprocate by taking the time to respond or elaborate as to why I didn't hire him.

Titus
05-11-2010, 05:55 PM
I usually don't reply unsolicited or solicited curricula, just like most clients don't reply when I don't win a bidding.

inakito
05-12-2010, 03:40 AM
I think we should start making a list of companies as such...

shrox
05-12-2010, 09:00 AM
Well, when dealing with those that you "kinda know", there is also the concern that something bad happened! An accident, illness, wrong turn at the border...who knows.

So communicate!

probiner
05-12-2010, 09:54 AM
and it goes on xD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Is5HZFJoSQ&feature=channel

shrox
05-12-2010, 09:57 AM
and it goes on xD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Is5HZFJoSQ&feature=channel

He's got references...

JamesCurtis
05-12-2010, 06:34 PM
I had one guy I was working on a project for and had gotten half way done with it and was due another payment [got paid 35% up front]. One day I had gotten an email that the guy was in an accident and the project would resume after he recovered - this was from his girlfriend associate. Well, I never heard back again, and after several emails never heard a single whisper - the emails even started bouncing. So finally, I tried calling the guy up and found out that his business phone had been disconnected. He had still owed me about $700 dollars to that point I was at in the project. However, it wasn't worth pursuing with a lawyer since it would have cost more than the owed amount to do a lawsuit.

Thankfully, that's the only problem I've ever had with contract work in all 18 years of doing graphics.

rapscallion
05-13-2010, 02:27 AM
I can definitely see how this would be frustrating for potential freelancers to get their bells rung, and shortly after the project evaporates...I've been working as a freelance director since 2003 and have had literally dozens of projects 'almost' start...

but I've also had a good solid handful of legitimate gigs that came through and they were tons of fun to work on...

my biggest frustrations have been with the seeming inability of freelancers that I have hired to work with me on these gigs to follow through...on my current project, there have been no less than 11 people who have come aboard, wasted many days of my time as I baby-step them through the project initiation and training materials, then suddenly they disappear before ever getting to the actual work...I'm assuming that in most of these cases it is because they realize that the quality level we are shooting for must be far outside their range of skill and technical ability...and then beyond the simple quitters, I have had no less than 3 people actually take my money then disappear without delivering anything...I've got a very straight forward pay system: 50% up front, 50% upon completion, plus bonuses ranging from 10% to 50% of the total contract for those who finish on or before the deadlines...it seems my willingness to show a certain level of commitment by paying up front has cost me more money than I care to admit - this is the risk of working with freelancers...

and to make things even one step worse, replacing drop-outs and thieves has become harder and harder, because for every legit employer like myself, there are at least a dozen or more guys posting for jobs that aren't jobs...I mean, how many contests and fan films are people really going to get involved with before they realize they are just pitching in free labor? You can't imagine my frustration when my last official job posting received only 1/3 the amount of views as the unpaid short film posted just above it - not to mention that I had ZERO replies in the thread and the other had half a dozen or more...

with all that said, I understand, but trust me that employers face just as much frustration as the freelancers...

so...

who needs a job?! I've got freelance character animation work right now for people with time and skill ;) PM me :D