PDA

View Full Version : A Change in LightWave 3D Development- official discussion thread



Pages : [1] 2

TheDeacon
05-10-2010, 12:18 PM
The announcement is HERE (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1017741#post1017741) in two posts.


The Discussion will be on this thread.

mav3rick
05-10-2010, 12:46 PM
great ... welcome aboard chuck and rob...

MAUROCOR
05-10-2010, 12:51 PM
Many of the new technologies developed for the LightWave CORE app, including the exciting new OpenGL display enhancements, are being integrated across the entire LightWave 3D Apps suite.




That sounds really great! I canīt wait for that!:thumbsup:

Larry_g1s
05-10-2010, 12:52 PM
" I want to let you know you are in great hands with Rob and Chuck who are managing development while I am on leave."Thanks & agreed. :thumbsup: and :goodluck:

Cutman
05-10-2010, 02:12 PM
Wow!

Lightwave Suite, a 3 app workflow what genius move. Suck on that Autodesk...

geothefaust
05-10-2010, 02:30 PM
I shall refrain from posting more of my thoughts on the subject, as I think I've made myself abundantly clear on the matter.

Instead, I'll just congratulate Chuck and Rob in their new role, and wish Jay the best.

Shnoze Shmon
05-10-2010, 02:46 PM
So Core is not an app that replaces current 9.6 apps but is a 3rd app that complements it?

I had been under the impression Core was the same apps revamped.

erikals
05-10-2010, 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by TheDeacon
Many of the new technologies developed for the LightWave CORE app, including the exciting new OpenGL display enhancements, are being integrated across the entire LightWave 3D Apps suite.

That sounds really great! I canīt wait for that!:thumbsup:

double-ditto! http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

geothefaust
05-10-2010, 02:50 PM
So Core is not an app that replaces current 9.6 apps but is a 3rd app that complements it?

I had been under the impression Core was the same apps revamped.

Well, technically it will eventually do so. But in the interim, it will not. Nothing has changed in this regard, save for the naming convention.


At least on the surface, that is.

MentalFish
05-10-2010, 02:54 PM
It's great to see we are talking classic LW + Core, not classic LW, HC LW and Core.

Hieron
05-10-2010, 02:57 PM
hmm.. I read:

*random "info"*
*leave of absence*
*random "info"*

The "info" doesn't seem new, or is it?

interesting, in a sense.

Larry_g1s
05-10-2010, 02:59 PM
It's great to see we are talking classic LW + Core, not classic LW, HC LW and Core.Agreed. I think however one may look at this, there seems to be more continuity then before.

hrgiger
05-10-2010, 03:02 PM
CORE is still the eventual target, a single unified app. Newtek just wants to give more functionality to modeler/Layout until that's possible.

Dexter2999
05-10-2010, 03:06 PM
CORE is still the eventual target, a single unified app. Newtek just wants to give more functionality to modeler/Layout until that's possible.

Yep, exactly.

Hieron
05-10-2010, 03:17 PM
Is that a good thing?
The resources spent on polishing the older parts is taken away at investing in the new one. You'd only go into such a change when the new one is taking longer than expected as a stop gap procedure. (I think)

ah well, either way. I'm curious to see what they come up with for Siggraph.

littlewaves
05-10-2010, 03:18 PM
CORE is still the eventual target, a single unified app. Newtek just wants to give more functionality to modeler/Layout until that's possible.

or...
Newtek just wants to market two ancient apps whose bugs they've long since given up on trying to fix alongside a new app which they've been struggling to get beyond the most basic of betas for well over a year and bundle all three up and try and convince people that it counts as a suite because otherwise they've nothing to market at all for the next 5 years while they try in vain to turn core into something more than a nice idea.

I offer this theory in the interests of balance against the "oh my god this 3 app suite is going to be so amazing. Thank you NT you rock my world!" posts

hrgiger
05-10-2010, 03:20 PM
Is that a good thing?
The resources spent on polishing the older parts is taken away at investing in the new one. You'd only go into such a change when the new one is taking longer than expected as a stop gap procedure. (I think)

ah well, either way. I'm curious to see what they come up with for Siggraph.

It's my concern as well. However, they do seem to be investing more in Lightwave with hiring some new people lately so hopefully CORE development won't be slowed.

Dexter2999
05-10-2010, 03:21 PM
or...
Newtek just wants to market two ancient apps whose bugs they've long since given up on trying to fix alongside a new app which they've been struggling to get beyond the most basic of betas for well over a year and bundle all three up and try and convince people that it counts as a suite because otherwise they've nothing to market at all for the next 5 years while they try in vain to turn core into something more than a nice idea.

I offer this theory in the interests of balance against the "oh my god this 3 app suite is going to be so amazing. Thank you NT you rock my world!" posts

Wow, both mean spirited and untrue. I'm not calling you a liar, but you are either misinformed or uninformed.

I'm also not saying "oh my god this 3 app suite is going to be so amazing." I am saying that it is a step in the right direction.

Kuzey
05-10-2010, 03:26 PM
CORE is still the eventual target, a single unified app. Newtek just wants to give more functionality to modeler/Layout until that's possible.

What happened to HC Modeler and HC Layout??

Mmmmm...and here I was hoping they would kill off LWHC as soon as possible!

Also...what was the reason for Jay's leave of absence and is it permanent??

Kuzey

Larry_g1s
05-10-2010, 03:26 PM
Is that a good thing?
The resources spent on polishing the older parts is taken away at investing in the new one. You'd only go into such a change when the new one is taking longer than expected as a stop gap procedure. (I think)

ah well, either way. I'm curious to see what they come up with for Siggraph.My initial concern too, but I really don't see much better solution. Even recently watching the XBR webinar AutoDesk did, they too are taking it nice and easy because they don't want to go dark and still keep present Max relevant during the building process. As much as I want the true next gen unified LW today, the present LW with some polish will still be a solid 3D app while Core continues to cook.

Hieron
05-10-2010, 03:30 PM
I agree Larry, it's not like LW is all bad all of a sudden. Just being a wee bit skeptical on just how great the news is indeed.
Ofcourse, given a certain situation, it probably is best to polish exisiting material a bit.

(and I do wish the current team best of luck, and hope Jay is ok)

robertoortiz
05-10-2010, 03:44 PM
Wow, both mean spirited and untrue. I'm not calling you a liar, but you are either misinformed or uninformed.

I'm also not saying "oh my god this 3 app suite is going to be so amazing." I am saying that it is a step in the right direction.

Agreed.

Not only it is mean spirited, it is also not productive.
Besides it misses the point of what CORE is aiming for.

OnlineRender
05-10-2010, 03:52 PM
Where is JIN *still banned*, when you need him !

speismonqui
05-10-2010, 03:54 PM
if NT keeps working on LW its bad because CORE will take longer to come out, if NT leaves LW for full CORE development its BAD because LW needs ti fix this and that, bugs, fiberFX, old promisses, you owe me this and that!
you want current LW to be PERFECT NOW! and also you want CORE NOWWW!!!!

C'mon guys, i think all of us are impatient about CORE. But NT has made a choice, and above all its going great, takes a lot of time and effort. So can we be supportive about it?

OnlineRender
05-10-2010, 03:54 PM
so who gets the CAT?

Hieron
05-10-2010, 04:00 PM
I'm not impatient about Core, just pointing towards a possible change of direction and whether that is "good news". This is a discussion thread after all.. Just going "omg, yay" is not a discussion.

Whatever direction they take is fine with me, what do I know.

Perhaps FiberFX will actually be usable soon :)

Nemoid
05-10-2010, 04:02 PM
Well, first off I hope that Jay is doing fine, and hope he will be back soon.
Regarding this news, since we know Rob is a very good Lw artist he's more than welcome to guide developing of the app.
If some CORE technologies are spread among modeler and layout too, this could mean CORE needs some more time to develop further, but it also mean LW will be enhanced to allow a smoother transition towards CORE.

One thing I'd want to point out is this: Even if LW dna is in ease of use and other good paradigms it has, please don't forget the standards coming from other apps. Evaluate other packages tools and possibly enhance them providing a fast workflow everywhere possible. It is a difficult mix, but IMO is possible to have one modern integrate app easy to use too.

Another question is: No mention of LW HC. So i presume it will be discontinued ?

Hieron
05-10-2010, 04:04 PM
Good point, will we get LW HC functionality in the 9.6 license?

Probably not though, I suppose it will be like now. But just called a "Core Suite" with Layout, Modeler and Core together.
Pushing functionality into the 9.6 is a bit of a slap to HC people now anyway.

With the naming settled, marketing would be easier as well. Just call it Core Suite 1, 2 etc :) And drop the Suite later on..
Pff, long story for: I don't think anything changes on that front. Just a naming change.

littlewaves
05-10-2010, 04:19 PM
Where is JIN *still banned*, when you need him !

is Jin banned? Damn. That's a shame. Always more fun with him around.

Hope it's not permanent. Although as I don't know what he did to get banned who knows.

I guess my hyperbole has upset a couple of guys and sure I was a little over the top but let's be honest here we're hardly where we all hoped we'd be at this stage when we first saw that reveal countdown all that time ago and announcing this "suite" is really just padding for the newsletter and not actually news at all to anyone who's been following progress.

littlewaves
05-10-2010, 04:29 PM
Perhaps FiberFX will actually be usable soon :)

don't hold your breath!

oops, sorry! being mean again.
:devil:

radams
05-10-2010, 04:30 PM
Hi All,

Well the changes are not good or bad...they just are.
So I would suggest not going all gushy or negative.

CORE and LW can both be developed and improved...it will just be what and how NT wished to proceed to make real solutions and marketable products.

I do wish to say that for many here...it has been a crash and burn commentary of anything NT puts out...or those fan boys who say everything is the greatest...when neither is true or right.

If you can afford to be patient...and give NT, Chuck, and Rob some time we will see where, what and how they will move forward.

I've know Chuck and several on the Dev team for many years...and know that they will move things in the right direction to make LW, CORE, or what every it's called into a real solution.

If any of you don't have that time, faith, or desire....please look to other solutions that are there for you now...let us know what your needs are...but blasting the dev team, Jay, Chuck, NT...isn't getting things changed...only a hostile forum and community....

I like how exception and some others handle things...and of course they are pros who now use multiple applications depending on the workflow and solutions needed. Thanks for your positive posts and outlooks...

I am wishing everyone good luck with all the changes...and to Chuck and Rob...and Jay (hope that all goes well with you and your family).

Looking forward to seeing where you take LW/CORE in the future...may it be to positive real world solutions.

Cheers,

GCastro
05-10-2010, 04:43 PM
Ugg, Jay taking a leave of absence, possible delay of core, means i continue to wait on the sidelines. :\

Gonna re-read the newsletter. Anyone know more info on Jay?

Earl
05-10-2010, 04:58 PM
The resources spent on polishing the older parts is taken away at investing in the new one.
This is a concern that I share. I want the amount of time I'm stuck with Layout and Modeler to be decreased, not drawn out.

sampei
05-10-2010, 05:13 PM
I offer this theory in the interests of balance against the "oh my god this 3 app suite is going to be so amazing. Thank you NT you rock my world!" posts

so basically you're a reverse fanboy? anyway I was starting to think 9.6 was quite stable as I very rarely have crashes (except for FFX) but maybe I've been lucky? what bugs are you referring to?

allyboy13
05-10-2010, 05:44 PM
what is the deal with this newsletter, its got Jays name plastered all over it. When will Newtek ever learn. Marketing continually seems to be a disaster. yeah lets announce that a major player is 'taking leave of absence' and not provide a full explanation (which is understandable) but lets not in the following days provide an update in the form of a newsletter with Jays name pastered all over it. What kind of message will this send to the newtek community????????.......is he coming back because of this newsletter, or is this is his final call. In short not only is it disrespectful, but it smacks of lets not just shoot ourselves in the foot lets get the shotgun out and blow both our feet off. When will newtek ever learn, I actually thought that lessons have been learned after the blundering realease of 'core' and yes i put that aside and bought into core ...but please put some thought into not only making announcements, Newtek has got a long road ahead in getting the Marketing strategy working for it , instead of against it . In short WHAT A GAFF.

sampei
05-10-2010, 05:55 PM
maybe he wrote the newsletter before leaving? I don't see what's the big deal.

allyboy13
05-10-2010, 06:22 PM
............................................well i think my post explains the big deal and mixed message it the newsletter leaves behind

mattlester
05-10-2010, 06:26 PM
Personally I feel a lot more at ease with this direction. The thought of imminently replacing our studios existing workflow with something new was a bit daunting, we haven't really had time to look into CORE properly. Now we can transition over without a loss in productivity + I feel more confident about investing further into these products and related third party plugins knowing that it won't be made redundant anytime soon.

Nicolas Jordan
05-10-2010, 07:02 PM
Jay has led the development team in laying down the initial foundation for Core and I am very optimistic that Rob and Chuck will pick up the torch and work well with the team in order to polish up Core for it's first official release. I am looking forward to see where Core goes from here with Rob and Chuck leading the team! Thanks Jay for leading the development up to this point.

gclayton
05-10-2010, 07:16 PM
............................................well i think my post explains the big deal and mixed message it the newsletter leaves behind

Yes, I thought the same...

Titus
05-10-2010, 07:29 PM
With all due respect, I feel NT is shooting in the dark, again.

danielkaiser
05-10-2010, 08:03 PM
don't hold your breath!

oops, sorry! being mean again.
:devil:

They've been putting some work into FFX

I've found it a bit more stable in the current beta, at least for grass, if your into that kind of thing.

robertoortiz
05-10-2010, 08:12 PM
Jay has led the development team in laying down the initial foundation for Core and I am very optimistic that Rob and Chuck will pick up the torch and work well with the team in order to polish up Core for it's first official release. I am looking forward to see where Core goes from here with Rob and Chuck leading the team! Thanks Jay for leading the development up to this point.

As part of the CORE beta team I second this.

Kuzey
05-10-2010, 11:17 PM
So no info on Jay or LWHC....do the Hardcore guys know or are they in the dark as well??

Maybe we can see the return of Chilton...that would be some good news at least.

Kuzey

Dexter2999
05-10-2010, 11:54 PM
What was said about Jay is that it is private and that there will be no comment.

Kuzey
05-11-2010, 12:31 AM
What was said about Jay is that it is private and that there will be no comment.

Ahhhh...sounds personal rather than business related...thanks for the info Dexter.

In either case, I wish Jay all the best!

Kuzey

OnlineRender
05-11-2010, 01:30 AM
Swings and Roundabouts people , there's only 1 person that can comment on there position and that's Mr Jay Roth , so all the speculation and hear-say would be best stopped now .

either way we wish all the best to Mr Roth and family !

now since Jin is not here I will comment on his behalf

"NOW BRING THE FREAK'in SEXY "

Pavlov
05-11-2010, 01:34 AM
They've been putting some work into FFX

I've found it a bit more stable in the current beta, at least for grass, if your into that kind of thing.

Hi,
i wonder if latest FiberFX is useable for large grass landscapes. Time ago you couldnt easily make a 100x100 m grass square without using instances or so.

Paolo

CGI Addict
05-11-2010, 01:41 AM
Dim the lights please.

colkai
05-11-2010, 02:10 AM
Ugg, Jay taking a leave of absence, possible delay of core, means i continue to wait on the sidelines. :\

Gonna re-read the newsletter. Anyone know more info on Jay?

I'd wager the situation to Jay will be classed as "private", though if the guy or a member of his family is just ill, that would seem strange not to say so.

Of course, after what has happened here politically, maybe I just see a politic statement, which is never a good sign. Then again, I am a cynical old git. :p

Have to say though, if Chuck N Rob were at the helm from the get-go, I more than likely would not have cancelled my HC/Core membership as I have more faith in them.

Then again, if I could see the future that clearly, I'd have had winning lottery numbers several times over by now. ;) :D

Hieron
05-11-2010, 04:05 AM
Hi,
i wonder if latest FiberFX is useable for large grass landscapes. Time ago you couldnt easily make a 100x100 m grass square without using instances or so.

Paolo


Maybe it deserves another shot, but last time I did that it cost a whole lot of time and gave only issues. Maybe 1 grass shot can be rendered (pff if it better..) but not sure if issues arise again when reflections, combing, moving camera, changing resolution etc are brought into the mix.

littlewaves
05-11-2010, 04:57 AM
so basically you're a reverse fanboy?

is that like "reverse cowboy"?

Bona
05-11-2010, 05:48 AM
I understand CORE is having deadlines to meet, but a good hair solution could make LW standout from the rest immediately.

Making FFX a solid function ( reads: seldom crash ) and you're a winner! C'mon NT, it's just one step away.

If everything we already had are solid as rock and 64 bit compatible, marketing CORE as an bonus extension will do.

mav3rick
05-11-2010, 06:38 AM
With all due respect, I feel NT is shooting in the dark, again.

lol this due respect sentence rings a bell to me......

DBMiller
05-11-2010, 06:48 AM
They've been putting some work into FFX

I've found it a bit more stable in the current beta, at least for grass, if your into that kind of thing.

Off topic a bit but I wish my lawn at home looked that good!:thumbsup:

DBMiller
05-11-2010, 06:53 AM
As part of the CORE beta team I second this.

I 3rd it. :thumbsup: Jay's name on the newsletter confirms that Jay hasn't just walked away from NewTek and still has a part in the development. After having a bit more time to think it over than those in the public forum I feel that all that's been done is a little more clarification as to the process and purpose of the Core development.

Nemoid
05-11-2010, 08:16 AM
Looking forward to read what Rob and Chuck are going to say to the community. I think Jay will be back within some time, too.

Larry_g1s
05-11-2010, 10:02 AM
They've been putting some work into FFX

I've found it a bit more stable in the current beta, at least for grass, if your into that kind of thing.Nice example Daniel.

TalleyJC
05-11-2010, 12:50 PM
I don't usually jump in on these type of threads but......

I've been in Software Development in Corporate America since 1984. In all that time, it has been my experience that these type of "Leaves of Absence", described in this way are never "good". Even if Jay had a child with brain cancer or something equally horrid, it would be announced like "Jay has family/personal matters that need attending and in the interim Rob and Chuck...blah blah blah".

The ambition of CORE has proved to be larger than the expected ability to deliver in the time frames originally announced.

Large projects that have had significant investment don't get canceled in order to save face. They often get re-branded, re-introduced, paradigm shifted... add your own buzz word here.

Poser users will remember what happened to Steve Cooper when Poser 5 was struggling to meet its dates.

Ultimately I believe in CORE (or I wouldn't be a member) I think that this software suite is a bad idea, like tons of other projects I've seen like this. Ones that need to find a way to produce revenue because the time to market is obviously not what was expected.

I understand this move as necessary, but a sad one. I was hoping that Newtek would not behave like so many other politically correct, anal retentive, corporate suits.

I personally would have much more respect for "You know, this is going to take way longer than we thought. We're not going to back burner CORE, but let's give you some more tools for 9.6 in the meantime." ...Than.... "Here: Buy and use what we have in core so far, get us some more capital to develop, and we'll call it a win win... group hug!!"

We all love and are passionate about LW or we wouldn't be here. We are all grown ups and could handle honest bump in the road news.

Is Newtek worried that Modo and Maya campers would be turning their nose up at us and saying bad things? Cheering with every production delay?
SOOO WHAT?!! As LW users we hear it every damn day and we are ignored by every 3d magazine published. We're the red headed bastard step children of 3d and we still crank out stuff like Galactica, without armies of MEL coders.

Here is MY OPINION on the situation.
Jay was getting more pressure for constant delays, with focus on profitability and market place survival as current sales were being stalled awaiting the new app... He was asked to push out something to show as a deliverable. Knowing that CORE in its current state would do more harm than good, found himself alone in supporting an ideal. The mention of adding a third app to a package that has long been criticized for having two apps, is completely unacceptable to the original design goals. Short term company survival out weighs future promise, and something had to give.

That said, I think Newtek is going to roll this out and with the underwhelming version of CORE that's released, public interest will drop off sharply from the hype that lead up to this point. Further hindering future interest from current non-LW users. There will be more caution from potential newbies, who could watch Modo and other apps continuing to grow while this uncertain period extends on. LW competition will continue to fuel the old rumors, as the uninformed who feared the dreaded old two app program will certainly not be interested in three app workflow. Arguments that try to explain CORE as additional functionality in a "suite" will be as convoluted and mysterious as how the HUB works to these people. The term suite will disappoint as many of the functions of CORE are the basics of modeler. And the irony of the future development will be that as CORE develops into what it was intended, will simply look like Newtek trying to recover from this initial release and not its original design intent.

I will be happy as a clam to use the final version of CORE but I fully expect I'll be using it with roughly the same audience I do today. It will be a great app just like 9.6 and nobody will write it up in magazines, it will still be frowned upon by the Autodesk empire whose users pay 1.2 million dollars a year in license costs for 1 seat.

Then Worley will pop up and do something revolutionary that will start the cycle of life all over again.

robertoortiz
05-11-2010, 01:06 PM
I am developer too,
Actually I have been developing apps for almost 20 years (15 as a pro)
And my bachelor’s degree is in Computer Science.

Ok having gotten that out the way, I can tell you my assessment where Core stands.

Core has always been intended to be an development architecture for tools.
What makes CORE special is the part of the application that would be invisible to the average user.

In a nutshell the infrastructure of CORE is designed from the ground up to allow for the creation of 3d tools.
The SDK is designed to allow total access of the application.

In effect CORE in effect is DAY ONE rewrite of LW. Developing the infrastructure (ie the code foundation) has taken its time, but it is worth it.
For now CORE sill support classic LW while its toolset start to build up.
(it is the Softimage – XSI transition all over again)


And having said that...
I am part of the CORE beta, and I like what I see.

TalleyJC
05-11-2010, 01:16 PM
As a fellow beta member, I agree that the architecture is great, and it is day one and its strength is invisible to the average user...all the more reason not to float this as part of a suite in the state it is now.

Its going to get slaughtered in bad press.

danielkaiser
05-11-2010, 01:29 PM
Hi,
i wonder if latest FiberFX is useable for large grass landscapes. Time ago you couldnt easily make a 100x100 m grass square without using instances or so.

Paolo


Maybe it deserves another shot, but last time I did that it cost a whole lot of time and gave only issues. Maybe 1 grass shot can be rendered (pff if it better..) but not sure if issues arise again when reflections, combing, moving camera, changing resolution etc are brought into the mix.

There's only one way to find out!

This thread in the beta forum has my scene file.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1015639#post1015639

If you have problems please post a bug report.

zarti
05-11-2010, 01:59 PM
I don't usually jump in on these type of threads but......

I've been in Software Development in Corporate America since 1984. In all that time, it has been my experience that these type of "Leaves of Absence", described in this way are never "good". Even if Jay had a child with brain cancer or something equally horrid, it would be announced like "Jay has family/personal matters that need attending and in the interim Rob and Chuck...blah blah blah".

The ambition of CORE has proved to be larger than the expected ability to deliver in the time frames originally announced.

Large projects that have had significant investment don't get canceled in order to save face. They often get re-branded, re-introduced, paradigm shifted... add your own buzz word here.

Poser users will remember what happened to Steve Cooper when Poser 5 was struggling to meet its dates.

Ultimately I believe in CORE (or I wouldn't be a member) I think that this software suite is a bad idea, like tons of other projects I've seen like this. Ones that need to find a way to produce revenue because the time to market is obviously not what was expected.

I understand this move as necessary, but a sad one. I was hoping that Newtek would not behave like so many other politically correct, anal retentive, corporate suits.

I personally would have much more respect for "You know, this is going to take way longer than we thought. We're not going to back burner CORE, but let's give you some more tools for 9.6 in the meantime." ...Than.... "Here: Buy and use what we have in core so far, get us some more capital to develop, and we'll call it a win win... group hug!!"

We all love and are passionate about LW or we wouldn't be here. We are all grown ups and could handle honest bump in the road news.

Is Newtek worried that Modo and Maya campers would be turning their nose up at us and saying bad things? Cheering with every production delay?
SOOO WHAT?!! As LW users we hear it every damn day and we are ignored by every 3d magazine published. We're the red headed bastard step children of 3d and we still crank out stuff like Galactica, without armies of MEL coders.

Here is MY OPINION on the situation.
Jay was getting more pressure for constant delays, with focus on profitability and market place survival as current sales were being stalled awaiting the new app... He was asked to push out something to show as a deliverable. Knowing that CORE in its current state would do more harm than good, found himself alone in supporting an ideal. The mention of adding a third app to a package that has long been criticized for having two apps, is completely unacceptable to the original design goals. Short term company survival out weighs future promise, and something had to give.

That said, I think Newtek is going to roll this out and with the underwhelming version of CORE that's released, public interest will drop off sharply from the hype that lead up to this point. Further hindering future interest from current non-LW users. There will be more caution from potential newbies, who could watch Modo and other apps continuing to grow while this uncertain period extends on. LW competition will continue to fuel the old rumors, as the uninformed who feared the dreaded old two app program will certainly not be interested in three app workflow. Arguments that try to explain CORE as additional functionality in a "suite" will be as convoluted and mysterious as how the HUB works to these people. The term suite will disappoint as many of the functions of CORE are the basics of modeler. And the irony of the future development will be that as CORE develops into what it was intended, will simply look like Newtek trying to recover from this initial release and not its original design intent.

I will be happy as a clam to use the final version of CORE but I fully expect I'll be using it with roughly the same audience I do today. It will be a great app just like 9.6 and nobody will write it up in magazines, it will still be frowned upon by the Autodesk empire whose users pay 1.2 million dollars a year in license costs for 1 seat.

Then Worley will pop up and do something revolutionary that will start the cycle of life all over again.

... but it is good you jumped today.

:agree:

Nemoid
05-11-2010, 02:16 PM
I am developer too,
Actually I have been developing apps for almost 20 years (15 as a pro)
And my bachelor’s degree is in Computer Science.

Ok having gotten that out the way, I can tell you my assessment where Core stands.

Core has always been intended to be an development architecture for tools.
What makes CORE special is the part of the application that would be invisible to the average user.

In a nutshell the infrastructure of CORE is designed from the ground up to allow for the creation of 3d tools.
The SDK is designed to allow total access of the application.

In effect CORE in effect is DAY ONE rewrite of LW. Developing the infrastructure (ie the code foundation) has taken its time, but it is worth it.
For now CORE sill support classic LW while its toolset start to build up.
(it is the Softimage – XSI transition all over again)


And having said that...
I am part of the CORE beta, and I like what I see.

Actually, as founder of a Lw community i have people which are in HC that keep saying CORE is unuseful as is for now, modelling toolset is still poor and that in MAC version selections and other things within UI don't work properly yet. So, as it is now CORE is not mature indeed.
I'm not saying it's bad, as it isn't released yet, but was delayed and needs time for sure to get further developed.

We as a community hope that Nt focuses its resources onto CORE development, because we think its the future.
These changements in direction and marketing from NT worry lots of people. We do expect good development and good marketing which mainly means good communication with userbase. And only afterwards, good advertisement.

I trust you when you say you like what you see, but I see some problems of good communication between NT and its user base, with NT often having to explain their choices and changing plans from time to time.

CGI Addict
05-11-2010, 02:19 PM
A disruption in communication can only mean one thing...

cresshead
05-11-2010, 02:29 PM
A disruption in communication can only mean one thing...


..time to take another loo at Blender? :devil:

>>>>>okay seriously!

we all have to wait and see what actually happens in the following weeks/months with the next version of lightwave [suite] that drops out of newtek come siggraph 2010.

to turn up for a second year at siggraph with no new version of a 3d product was not going to be a good prospect...better they throw some dev's back over at LIGHTWAVE to push out a new lightwave 10.0 and get some new sales and upgrades coming in than play a waiting game with the extended devlopment time it's taking worth Core.

Add in the fact that Newtek need to capitalise on marketing the existing Lightwave 9.5 apps modeler and layout from the recent headline news of the AVATAR production and it's worth spending time on modeler and layout wit developers to try and boost it's capabilities for such hi end tasks as virtual set shooting.

As for Jay, good luck to him and i hope to see him back here soon.

OnlineRender
05-12-2010, 03:37 AM
I don't usually jump in on these type of threads but......

I've been in Software Development in Corporate America since 1984. In all that time, it has been my experience that these type of "Leaves of Absence", described in this way are never "good". Even if Jay had a child with brain cancer or something equally horrid, it would be announced like "Jay has family/personal matters that need attending and in the interim Rob and Chuck...blah blah blah".

The ambition of CORE has proved to be larger than the expected ability to deliver in the time frames originally announced.

Large projects that have had significant investment don't get canceled in order to save face. They often get re-branded, re-introduced, paradigm shifted... add your own buzz word here.

Poser users will remember what happened to Steve Cooper when Poser 5 was struggling to meet its dates.

Ultimately I believe in CORE (or I wouldn't be a member) I think that this software suite is a bad idea, like tons of other projects I've seen like this. Ones that need to find a way to produce revenue because the time to market is obviously not what was expected.

I understand this move as necessary, but a sad one. I was hoping that Newtek would not behave like so many other politically correct, anal retentive, corporate suits.

I personally would have much more respect for "You know, this is going to take way longer than we thought. We're not going to back burner CORE, but let's give you some more tools for 9.6 in the meantime." ...Than.... "Here: Buy and use what we have in core so far, get us some more capital to develop, and we'll call it a win win... group hug!!"

We all love and are passionate about LW or we wouldn't be here. We are all grown ups and could handle honest bump in the road news.

Is Newtek worried that Modo and Maya campers would be turning their nose up at us and saying bad things? Cheering with every production delay?
SOOO WHAT?!! As LW users we hear it every damn day and we are ignored by every 3d magazine published. We're the red headed bastard step children of 3d and we still crank out stuff like Galactica, without armies of MEL coders.

Here is MY OPINION on the situation.
Jay was getting more pressure for constant delays, with focus on profitability and market place survival as current sales were being stalled awaiting the new app... He was asked to push out something to show as a deliverable. Knowing that CORE in its current state would do more harm than good, found himself alone in supporting an ideal. The mention of adding a third app to a package that has long been criticized for having two apps, is completely unacceptable to the original design goals. Short term company survival out weighs future promise, and something had to give.

That said, I think Newtek is going to roll this out and with the underwhelming version of CORE that's released, public interest will drop off sharply from the hype that lead up to this point. Further hindering future interest from current non-LW users. There will be more caution from potential newbies, who could watch Modo and other apps continuing to grow while this uncertain period extends on. LW competition will continue to fuel the old rumors, as the uninformed who feared the dreaded old two app program will certainly not be interested in three app workflow. Arguments that try to explain CORE as additional functionality in a "suite" will be as convoluted and mysterious as how the HUB works to these people. The term suite will disappoint as many of the functions of CORE are the basics of modeler. And the irony of the future development will be that as CORE develops into what it was intended, will simply look like Newtek trying to recover from this initial release and not its original design intent.

I will be happy as a clam to use the final version of CORE but I fully expect I'll be using it with roughly the same audience I do today. It will be a great app just like 9.6 and nobody will write it up in magazines, it will still be frowned upon by the Autodesk empire whose users pay 1.2 million dollars a year in license costs for 1 seat.

Then Worley will pop up and do something revolutionary that will start the cycle of life all over again.

Dude you need to post more often !

pooby
05-12-2010, 04:03 AM
I don't usually jump in on these type of threads but......

I've been in Software Development in Corporate America since 1984. In all that time, it has been my experience that these type of "Leaves of Absence", described in this way are never "good". Even if Jay had a child with brain cancer or something equally horrid, it would be announced like "Jay has family/personal matters that need attending and in the interim Rob and Chuck...blah blah blah".

The ambition of CORE has proved to be larger than the expected ability to deliver in the time frames originally announced.

Large projects that have had significant investment don't get canceled in order to save face. They often get re-branded, re-introduced, paradigm shifted... add your own buzz word here.

Poser users will remember what happened to Steve Cooper when Poser 5 was struggling to meet its dates.

Ultimately I believe in CORE (or I wouldn't be a member) I think that this software suite is a bad idea, like tons of other projects I've seen like this. Ones that need to find a way to produce revenue because the time to market is obviously not what was expected.

I understand this move as necessary, but a sad one. I was hoping that Newtek would not behave like so many other politically correct, anal retentive, corporate suits.

I personally would have much more respect for "You know, this is going to take way longer than we thought. We're not going to back burner CORE, but let's give you some more tools for 9.6 in the meantime." ...Than.... "Here: Buy and use what we have in core so far, get us some more capital to develop, and we'll call it a win win... group hug!!"

We all love and are passionate about LW or we wouldn't be here. We are all grown ups and could handle honest bump in the road news.

Is Newtek worried that Modo and Maya campers would be turning their nose up at us and saying bad things? Cheering with every production delay?
SOOO WHAT?!! As LW users we hear it every damn day and we are ignored by every 3d magazine published. We're the red headed bastard step children of 3d and we still crank out stuff like Galactica, without armies of MEL coders.

Here is MY OPINION on the situation.
Jay was getting more pressure for constant delays, with focus on profitability and market place survival as current sales were being stalled awaiting the new app... He was asked to push out something to show as a deliverable. Knowing that CORE in its current state would do more harm than good, found himself alone in supporting an ideal. The mention of adding a third app to a package that has long been criticized for having two apps, is completely unacceptable to the original design goals. Short term company survival out weighs future promise, and something had to give.

That said, I think Newtek is going to roll this out and with the underwhelming version of CORE that's released, public interest will drop off sharply from the hype that lead up to this point. Further hindering future interest from current non-LW users. There will be more caution from potential newbies, who could watch Modo and other apps continuing to grow while this uncertain period extends on. LW competition will continue to fuel the old rumors, as the uninformed who feared the dreaded old two app program will certainly not be interested in three app workflow. Arguments that try to explain CORE as additional functionality in a "suite" will be as convoluted and mysterious as how the HUB works to these people. The term suite will disappoint as many of the functions of CORE are the basics of modeler. And the irony of the future development will be that as CORE develops into what it was intended, will simply look like Newtek trying to recover from this initial release and not its original design intent.

I will be happy as a clam to use the final version of CORE but I fully expect I'll be using it with roughly the same audience I do today. It will be a great app just like 9.6 and nobody will write it up in magazines, it will still be frowned upon by the Autodesk empire whose users pay 1.2 million dollars a year in license costs for 1 seat.

Then Worley will pop up and do something revolutionary that will start the cycle of life all over again.

Very well put.. balanced and most likely, spot on.

Emmanuel
05-12-2010, 04:51 AM
To me this looks like a BIG mess.
I was intending to join HC soon, but now I just won't, this is too messy.
NT are changing staff like crazy, didnt Jay just come aboard ?
I like Chuck and Rob, but to me Jay was the EI guy who knew where to head based on his experience with another app.
And the change of tone regarding CORE isnt giving me faith either.
When FF4 was incorporated into LW, wasnt it to make the thing more stable and feature packed ? Did that happen ?

Lightwolf
05-12-2010, 05:04 AM
NT are changing staff like crazy, didnt Jay just come aboard ?
Five years ago, February 2005.

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
05-12-2010, 06:03 AM
Five years ago, February 2005.

Cheers,
Mike

That's 5 years alot of stress and dev time !

Salv8or
05-12-2010, 06:06 AM
I don't usually jump in on these type of threads but......

I've been in Software Development in Corporate America since 1984. In all that time, it has been my experience that these type of "Leaves of Absence", described in this way are never "good". Even if Jay had a child with brain cancer or something equally horrid, it would be announced like "Jay has family/personal matters that need attending and in the interim Rob and Chuck...blah blah blah".

The ambition of CORE has proved to be larger than the expected ability to deliver in the time frames originally announced.

Large projects that have had significant investment don't get canceled in order to save face. They often get re-branded, re-introduced, paradigm shifted... add your own buzz word here.

Poser users will remember what happened to Steve Cooper when Poser 5 was struggling to meet its dates.

Ultimately I believe in CORE (or I wouldn't be a member) I think that this software suite is a bad idea, like tons of other projects I've seen like this. Ones that need to find a way to produce revenue because the time to market is obviously not what was expected.

I understand this move as necessary, but a sad one. I was hoping that Newtek would not behave like so many other politically correct, anal retentive, corporate suits.

I personally would have much more respect for "You know, this is going to take way longer than we thought. We're not going to back burner CORE, but let's give you some more tools for 9.6 in the meantime." ...Than.... "Here: Buy and use what we have in core so far, get us some more capital to develop, and we'll call it a win win... group hug!!"

We all love and are passionate about LW or we wouldn't be here. We are all grown ups and could handle honest bump in the road news.

Is Newtek worried that Modo and Maya campers would be turning their nose up at us and saying bad things? Cheering with every production delay?
SOOO WHAT?!! As LW users we hear it every damn day and we are ignored by every 3d magazine published. We're the red headed bastard step children of 3d and we still crank out stuff like Galactica, without armies of MEL coders.

Here is MY OPINION on the situation.
Jay was getting more pressure for constant delays, with focus on profitability and market place survival as current sales were being stalled awaiting the new app... He was asked to push out something to show as a deliverable. Knowing that CORE in its current state would do more harm than good, found himself alone in supporting an ideal. The mention of adding a third app to a package that has long been criticized for having two apps, is completely unacceptable to the original design goals. Short term company survival out weighs future promise, and something had to give.

That said, I think Newtek is going to roll this out and with the underwhelming version of CORE that's released, public interest will drop off sharply from the hype that lead up to this point. Further hindering future interest from current non-LW users. There will be more caution from potential newbies, who could watch Modo and other apps continuing to grow while this uncertain period extends on. LW competition will continue to fuel the old rumors, as the uninformed who feared the dreaded old two app program will certainly not be interested in three app workflow. Arguments that try to explain CORE as additional functionality in a "suite" will be as convoluted and mysterious as how the HUB works to these people. The term suite will disappoint as many of the functions of CORE are the basics of modeler. And the irony of the future development will be that as CORE develops into what it was intended, will simply look like Newtek trying to recover from this initial release and not its original design intent.

I will be happy as a clam to use the final version of CORE but I fully expect I'll be using it with roughly the same audience I do today. It will be a great app just like 9.6 and nobody will write it up in magazines, it will still be frowned upon by the Autodesk empire whose users pay 1.2 million dollars a year in license costs for 1 seat.

Then Worley will pop up and do something revolutionary that will start the cycle of life all over again.

Spot on. I cant agree more. Its cruisual that NewTek handles the sittuation (what ever it may be) correct. All major software rewrights like this, bumps in to dev problems and economic difficulties. Softiamge to XSI is one exsample. It took the dev cyckle up to version 2 or 3 before the application was stable and manageble. I truely hope NewTek dont release a version of Core that "damages" what the potentials it have in beeing a new software that may indeed get some eyes and users from other software companies.

I for one, would gladely wait until Core is mature enough, rather than having to be disapointed of a premature release. LW9.6 takes us far enough to do amazing things with as is. Sure, we rely on the amazing third party development from time to time. But I can live with that until we have a Core that is up for a great fight with the other gigant apps, rather then have Core be some kind of laughingstock. (is that the correct expression?)

VonBon
05-12-2010, 07:23 AM
Hi,
i wonder if latest FiberFX is useable for large grass landscapes. Time ago you couldnt easily make a 100x100 m grass square without using instances or so.

Paolo

this is a test i did a while back with FFX in LW 9.6.
(SubDiv surface with a ZBrush displacement.)

mav3rick
05-12-2010, 09:11 AM
please no more bmp
who use bmp this days

VonBon
05-12-2010, 09:25 AM
please no more bmp
who use bmp this days

;D

I tried to find the scene with the FFX but can't.
If i remember right the problem i had was when i tried to use
a weight map to contoll the distribution of the FFX.

I think the issue was the weightmaps working with
the displacment map setup inside the Node Editor.

Glendalough
05-12-2010, 10:00 AM
Wow! This is really rather unbelievable. 3 Apps in a "suite"?

LW/core? The only way out, marketing move I can see, though not politically correct, is call it LightWhore.

(replace modeler, integrate what's necessary and call it Core. Layout continues to be called Lightwave)

erikals
05-12-2010, 10:22 AM
Light****?

because it's a threesome?

Chris S. (Fez)
05-12-2010, 10:44 AM
Haha.

MentalFish
05-12-2010, 11:04 AM
I don't understand why people are getting their undies all twisted up on the matter that we have gone from 5 versions (Layout/Modeler 9.6 + LWHC and CORE) to 3 versions, LightWave as we know it (Layout/Modeler) + CORE. What is the alternative? Full stop of LightWave classic at v9.6.1 and only sell CORE? Should they be sold seperately? Who would buy CORE on its own?

Think of CORE as a plugin for classic LightWave until it can stand on its own two feet. No biggie, I probably have, and use, a two digit amount of plugins and software around LightWave to get the job done. Nuke, 3D-Coat, any and all db&w plugins, HD Instance, numerous free plugins, selfmade tools and now lately Turbulence 4D. No biggie, just another screwdriver in the toolbox, use it if you like or ignore it if you don't.

the3dwiz
05-12-2010, 11:57 AM
Question: Then i as a non Core subscriber will get the same update on LW 9.6 like someone in the HardCore program??? Where have NT stated this?

Actualy i think they should explain the problems they are facing and realy go dark until there is some substantial news on Core. With the much to early annoncement of core they did not do them any favor. And all the missing communication after the reviel did the rest. Now Jay is absent/ leaving?? This again spills a not to good light on the situation for me. With every of this bumps im loosing a bit of faith in all this (NT). And the bits are getting bigger and bigger.
(Hey theyr now almaost 2q late, and at the moment Core ts not even a replacement for Modeller.)

monovich
05-12-2010, 11:57 AM
I for one am glad to hear that LW is still going to be developed and improved. I am SO vested in the app and only diving deeper into it as I go. To hear that it isn't necessarily EOL and that I have a nice easy ramp into CORE is good news.
I feared that plugin development for 9.6 was going to stop entirely when core was announced, but seeing things like Turbulence and HOT Ocean coming out for it has me very encouraged.

I'm sure CORE at some point will be great and I'll tinker with it, but I want to hear that Newtek hasn't abandoned NOW in searching for their future.

Andyjaggy
05-12-2010, 12:06 PM
Oh man what a mess. Makes me all the more glad I sold my core license. Newtek is in a tough spot, I hope they manage to pull out of it.

I am glad from the sound of it, that 9.6 is going to get some substantial love, as I still like to use it for my rendering needs.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-12-2010, 12:11 PM
I am glad from the sound of it, that 9.6 is going to get some substantial love, as I still like to use it for my rendering needs.

Agreed. Give us a robust render pass system and Lightwave Classic is back in the game...

Glendalough
05-12-2010, 12:13 PM
...I am glad from the sound of it, that 9.6 is going to get some substantial love, as I still like to use it for my rendering needs.

Yes this would be good.

Can't help joking, but not funny, we all have a vested interest in this.

Maybe they should strip down modeler and put it into core immediately and concentrate on layout for scene management and rendering. Also get the dynamics, particles, and CA working properly and better than other programs.

Kuzey
05-12-2010, 12:44 PM
I wonder if Newtek will stick with the subscription model as well...doesn't sound like it would make sense now.

Kuzey

OnlineRender
05-12-2010, 02:25 PM
I wonder if Newtek will stick with the subscription model as well...doesn't sound like it would make sense now.

Kuzey

Stop putting ideas in there head , do you want to pay subscription , the whole CORE concept ,excuse the pun ! is to give artist the ability to buy the software , people who own AD products have either saved up there hard earned pennies or are fortunate enough to be able to afford it .>edit or torrent it !

LW is a classic mid range app , end off . it hits that middle ground just nicely . on its left we have contender number 1 (MAYA/MAX) and on the far right we have contender number 2 ( Blender ) LW / LW CORE sits right in the middle .

Give MR Andrew_3DC another couple of years building , and LW may be blown out of the water .

Kuzey
05-12-2010, 02:32 PM
Stop putting ideas in there head , do you want to pay subscription , the whole CORE concept ,excuse the pun ! is to give artist the ability to buy the software , people who own AD products have either saved up there hard earned pennies or are fortunate enough to be able to afford it .>edit or torrent it !

LW is a classic mid range app , end off . it hits that middle ground just nicely . on its left we have contender number 1 (MAYA/MAX) and on the far right we have contender number 2 ( Blender ) LW / LW CORE sits right in the middle .

Give MR Andrew_3DC another couple of years building , and LW may be out of the running !

Haha..you're right there....it doesn't make sense with LW...just pointing it out :hey:

In other news...what will happen to the hardcore program...I guess that's gone as well, or soon will be??

Kuzey

flashover
05-12-2010, 02:35 PM
CORE is still the eventual target, a single unified app. Newtek just wants to give more functionality to modeler/Layout until that's possible.

Finnaly...

OnlineRender
05-12-2010, 02:39 PM
What does slightly annoy me !, is the lack of communication with the general forum board > I would have thought by now somebody / anybody may have came on and offered some sort of explanation ,I'm not asking for excuses or even bending the truth slightly , just a short paragraph saying A) this is what needs done & B)this is what we are going to do , Jay doesn't need to answer to anybody and certainly NT will not .

stuck in the dark yet again! , its slowly starting to get on my Tit$ , its not fair , or do i need to spend $500 bucks just to know what's happening ????????

Quote from a Student last week ! " Why do we use LW and not MAX "
ME ----hidding in the corner , " Because LW is a powerful app and is good for freelance work " ,"gay answer " .

Student " Ohh you mean were to cheap to buy MAX " ...........

(and yes I do know about AD EDL )

Its about time that got remedied , I want to be able to say with confidence that I use LW !
oui ?

CGI Addict
05-12-2010, 02:41 PM
Anybody for three card monty?

Larry_g1s
05-12-2010, 02:43 PM
please no more bmp
who use bmp this dayslol...seriously!


I for one am glad to hear that LW is still going to be developed and improved. I am SO vested in the app and only diving deeper into it as I go. To hear that it isn't necessarily EOL and that I have a nice easy ramp into CORE is good news.
I feared that plugin development for 9.6 was going to stop entirely when core was announced, but seeing things like Turbulence and HOT Ocean coming out for it has me very encouraged.

I'm sure CORE at some point will be great and I'll tinker with it, but I want to hear that Newtek hasn't abandoned NOW in searching for their future.As much as we'd like Core to be the next-gen, unfied LW today, that isn't going to happen. And this more transitional approach does seem the most rational. It seems to be what AutoDesk is doing with Max and 'Excalibur'.

calilifestyle
05-12-2010, 02:52 PM
i said it before. NT needs their own Podcast( like brad and modo). They could come out once a week and chatted with the community.
i mean i swear, i don't understand why they don't do it already. I mean Newtek are creators of VT and tricaster, so whats stopping them.

Kuzey
05-12-2010, 02:52 PM
And this more transitional approach does seem the most rational. It seems to be what AutoDesk is doing with Max and 'Excalibur'.

If they started out that way, it would have been better.

But...I'm sure Jin must be laughing at the turn of events :hey:

Kuzey

OnlineRender
05-12-2010, 02:54 PM
If they started out that way, it would have been better.

But...I'm sure Jin must be laughing at the turn of events :hey:

Kuzey

Hes on Twitter :D

Kuzey
05-12-2010, 02:58 PM
Hes on Twitter :D

what's the link...I looked up Jin and there were too many.

Kuzey

OnlineRender
05-12-2010, 03:04 PM
what's the link...I looked up Jin and there were too many.

Kuzey

there's only one JinChoung eating a sandwich though ! > i don't think he has tweet'ed on the subject , and yes I do only have one friend on Twitter , due the fact that it's mega GAY !

Kuzey
05-12-2010, 03:10 PM
there's only one JinChoung eating a sandwich though !

Right....silly me :D

Ah...looks like the Newtek stuff hasn't started yet...hehe.

Kuzey

OnlineRender
05-12-2010, 03:14 PM
Right....silly me :D

Ah...looks like the Newtek stuff hasn't started yet...hehe.

Kuzey

TBH I don't think " I TOLD YOU So " is Jin's Style :D

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 02:48 AM
But..but...I think he deserves to say it at least once :D

Then again, he could be waiting to see what the new marketing on LW/Core is before jumping the gun...so to speak.

Kuzey

Cageman
05-13-2010, 02:54 AM
I don't understand why people are getting their undies all twisted up on the matter that we have gone from 5 versions (Layout/Modeler 9.6 + LWHC and CORE) to 3 versions, LightWave as we know it (Layout/Modeler) + CORE.

What are you talking about?

LW9.6.1 is still developed and will be a free upgrade to all owners of LW9.x cycle.

LWHC = Layout/Modeler with new features. If you have LWHC, you will not need to use LW9.6 or 9.6.1

So... I really don't get where you got 5 apps from?

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 03:01 AM
Going back on topic.

I think the Hardcore program didn't help Newtek any as well. From the outside looking in, I think it became more of a cheer squad in the end than a serious discussion on Core future and tool sets.

You would think Newtek would have released a press release by now, clarifying the situation...but, if they're waiting on marketing department then it might be another 3 months before we hear anything....sorry, I couldn't help myself :hey:


Kuzey

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 03:07 AM
What are you talking about?

LW9.6.1 is still developed and will be a free upgrade to all owners of LW9.x cycle.

LWHC = Layout/Modeler with new features. If you have LWHC, you will not need to use LW9.6 or 9.6.1

So... I really don't get where you got 5 apps from?

That's the clarification we need...will LWHC become the new 9.6.1 or will it be scrapped altogether...or become LW10. If they are both being developed then it's 5 apps from my count...not including the hub.

Kuzey

colkai
05-13-2010, 03:07 AM
I don't understand why people are getting their undies all twisted up on the matter that we have gone from 5 versions (Layout/Modeler 9.6 + LWHC and CORE) to 3 versions

Actually, not true, the current (i.e. released product) has 2 apps, the new one, "LW suite with Core technology" or whatever it will be called, will be 3 apps, LWHC Layout, LWHC Modeller and LW CORE.

LWHC and LW9.6 are different versions of the same beast with LWHC designed to "talk to" core, yes, there will be other enhancements to it, but you do NOT need LWHC and Core to run LW9.6.
However, you DO need LWHC Layout and modeller and CORE to use the "suite".

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 03:12 AM
Actually, not true, the current (i.e. released product) has 2 apps, the new one, "LW suite with Core technology" or whatever it will be called, will be 3 apps, LWHC Layout, LWHC Modeller and LW CORE.

LWHC and LW9.6 are different versions of the same beast with LWHC designed to "talk to" core, yes, there will be other enhancements to it, but you do NOT need LWHC and Core to run LW9.6.
However, you DO need LWHC Layout and modeller and CORE to use the "suite".

Then it's still the same, just a name/marketing change. It's still 5 apps even if 9.6.1 hot fix is similar to LWHC...mostly :D

Kuzey

colkai
05-13-2010, 03:13 AM
That's the clarification we need...will LWHC become the new 9.6.1 or will it be scrapped altogether...or become LW10. If they are both being developed then it's 5 apps from my count...not including the hub.

Kuzey
Nope, 9.6 is NOT being developed, Newtek have made that abundantly clear in many many posts.
LWHC / LWX will be LW9.6 for Core as it were and until CORE can stand on it's own, are a big part of the "suite" being 'sold'.

They have always maintained LW9.6.1 is the last update and will be purely bug fixes with no additional development / features. Thus my confusion as to how anyone may think that LW9.6 somehow is 5 apps.
I suppose, if one is being pedantic, you could say it was 3 apps if you include the Hub. ;)

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 03:17 AM
Nope, 9.6 is NOT being developed, Newtek have made that abundantly clear in many many posts.
LWHC / LWX will be LW9.6 for Core as it were and until CORE can stand on it's own, are a big part of the "suite" being 'sold'.

They have always maintained LW9.6.1 is the last update and will be purely bug fixes with no additional development / features. Thus my confusion as to how anyone may think that LW9.6 somehow is 5 apps.
I suppose, if one is being pedantic, you could say it was 3 apps if you include the Hub. ;)

I see, your confusion comes from you being a PC guy...hehe.

There is no Cocoa version of LW Mac (that is 64bit version)...that's the whole idea of the hot fix, to get that version out...while fixing as many bugs as they can..platform wide :D

Kuzey

Emmanuel
05-13-2010, 04:50 AM
Personally, I think they should first serve the customers who invested in LW 9.x, as the brochures clearly outline features which dont work as advertised (aka crash way too often to be "out of beta"), like FiberFX.
Teasing someone with a hypothetical product "that does everything better" isnt proper service to the client who paid for the current software.
I am not buying a future software, I am buying what is offered NOW, and that must work as advertised otherwise I am pissed.

Salv8or
05-13-2010, 04:56 AM
After a couple of days of speculating and questionings about LW9.6.x and LWHC and so on, would'nt it make sence if if the decon or some one from newtek cleard things up abit.
Don't they read at least the treads they start?
I'm sure if it was on another forum that some one with credability would have said somthing to clearefy the disscussions.
The information from Netek seems to happen only in the Newsletters, then we're left hanging until the next newsletter. What's up with that? Drop the bomb and stay clear?
Im not trying to start some blame game here, but it would sure give the whole community some stabillity. Less speculations, and more clarifications. If they cant awnser do to NDA's or what not, just say so. But at least say that.

Am I beeing totaly out of line here or could it be reasonable?!?

MentalFish
05-13-2010, 05:19 AM
What are you talking about?

LW9.6.1 is still developed and will be a free upgrade to all owners of LW9.x cycle.

LWHC = Layout/Modeler with new features. If you have LWHC, you will not need to use LW9.6 or 9.6.1

So... I really don't get where you got 5 apps from?

You told me, remember? on Skype :neener: Just kidding :D I assume we can agree that LightWave as we know it is two applications, a modeler and an animation/rendering app (with a hub, but we don't "use" that as creative tool apart from changing settings I guess). So, when you buy LightWave today, you get, Modeler & Layout in version 9.6, open beta of 9.6.1, you get a HardCore membership and access to LWHC + CORE, thats 2 apps x 3 + CORE, so the truth is actually 7 and not 5 :D

I know that LWHC is the same as Classic/Legacy/Numeral version of LW from a technical point of view + more features, but from a communication point of view it came across as something else. As of late (also prior to Jay's leave), NewTek have talked about LightWave and CORE, or as they call it: LightWave 3D ->with<- CORE Technology. Like anyone else here I would of course like to see and hear even more, both in terms of details of what is going on and more on the bigger picture, but I do like the more focused use of LightWave and CORE, not seperate LightWave legacy (<- which has a LW-the-dead ring to it), LWHC, CORE, open beta, and so on. As much as the technology is important, so is what the owners of it says about it.

Early in the CORE cycle, there was far more "The king is dead, long live the king" going on between LightWave and CORE, I was even told directly by a NewTek representative that "9.6.1 is the last version of LightWave legacy" <- can I just say how much I hate the term legacy!!! LightWave 10 FTW :D Now the message seems clearer (to me atleast), there is LightWave, and there is CORE, or LW Classic and LW CORE if you will, no one has died :thumbsup:

As a side note, for those of you who need LightWave CORE to replace LightWave Classic as soon as possible, why not look for the tools and features you want/need in plugins and other applications to support LightWave? I wanted a good comping and tracking solution, so shelled out on NukeX and most recently I jumped in on the early adopter deal for Turbulence. I don't need NewTek to give me ALL the tools I could think of as useful, I am fine with Jawset getting some of my money for me to get my hands on their production proven smoke and fire solution.

If "tech x" will only be available inside CORE but easily accessible through pipeline integration with LightWave, awesome. Overall workflow and project management is more important than to have all the features you need in one application, and ultimately, concept and aesthetics of the end result trumps that as well. We're in the image creation business, not button pushing business.

OnlineRender
05-13-2010, 07:38 AM
Hmm I'm not a stupid man , ok maybe silly at times , but I'm LOST and confused ! :l33t:

littlewaves
05-13-2010, 07:46 AM
... the Modeler HC has its own build compared to the 9.6.x open beta build!
I count 6 apps in develpoment from Newtek :-)

+ screamernet = 7 apps but hey who's counting?

not to mention LScript Editor.app and LScript Interface Designer.app

With all these extra apps that we'd all forgotten about maybe we should send Newtek some more money. I kind of feel like we've ripped them off.

Maybe to even things out a bit they should create some kind of mythological experimental software that they couldn't possibly finish and charge people to "test" it


<runs for cover...>

Glendalough
05-13-2010, 08:00 AM
After a couple of days of speculating and questionings about LW9.6.x and LWHC and so on, would'nt it make sence if if the decon or some one from newtek cleard things up abit.
Don't they read at least the treads they start?...


Maybe this is the crux of the matter, THEY DON'T KNOW! And just want to see what users expect.

So I would suggest the 5 application idea (with 9.6.1 Modeler and layout dead but continuing with LWHC) is a bad idea and will make no one happy.

People wo bought into Core will be unhappy with just a revamped 9.6 and others will feel bad about being left out of the upgrade. So maybe the best idea is to give all Core members a free ungrade to Core 2 which would maybe hopefully have scrapped modeler by that stage in the future.

They really need a new slogan though to cover up all this mess, maybe something like:

"We don't know what we are doing, but we are getting there fast"

MentalFish
05-13-2010, 08:13 AM
Nothing to be confused about, there is LightWave (Classic) and there is CORE :thumbsup:

In other words: Layout, Modeler and CORE. One day CORE might replace both Layout and Modeler, but not for now.

robertoortiz
05-13-2010, 08:21 AM
Nothing to be confused about, there is LightWave (Classic) and there is CORE :thumbsup:

In other words: Layout, Modeler and CORE. One day CORE might replace both Layout and Modeler, but not for now.

exactly...

OnlineRender
05-13-2010, 08:23 AM
I personally dont mind havin several apps open, for example if Max crashes it crashes out right , generally when LW crashes you have modeller open and you can salvage something / vice-versa .

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 08:25 AM
Nothing to be confused about, there is LightWave (Classic) and there is CORE :thumbsup:

In other words: Layout, Modeler and CORE. One day CORE might replace both Layout and Modeler, but not for now.
Well, it's not quite that easy, but still easy enough:

Layout/Modeler 9.6.1 - final bug-fix release only for the 9.x series and OSX 64-bit port
Layout Modeler ??? (HC) - Companion for whatever the Core package will include with new features
Core
And the first two share code, i.e. the fixes in 9.6.1 end up in ???(HC) as well. While all three apparently share some code mainly for i/o.

Cheers,
Mike

robertoortiz
05-13-2010, 08:42 AM
The thing is that I only see an upside to this.

See peope will complain about CORE not being ready to be a replacement for LW.
Butif things go well, and the tools are "cooked a bit more" with CORE 1.0 they will get the Bullet engine.
And new UV mapping tools.


It is not a replacement for LW, yet, but it does inmediate offer value to classic LW...when it goes live.

Nemoid
05-13-2010, 08:50 AM
I actually think they should brand things in this way:

Lightwave 3D - classic = 9.x (9.6.1 and possible ? further updates)
Lightwave 3D with CORE technology = LW HC + CORE

Lw classic development would be discontinued but the app would be sold however, and Lightwave 3d with CORE technology remain the only developed product for awhile (2, 3 years maybe)
Afterwards, when CORE will be mature to stand on its own, LW classic and even Lw HC could be totally dropped and Lightwave 3D with CORE technology could be rebranded in Lightwave CORE :agree:with myself :D

danielkaiser
05-13-2010, 09:10 AM
I want cake.

MentalFish
05-13-2010, 09:17 AM
Well, it's not quite that easy, but still easy enough:

Layout/Modeler 9.6.1 - final bug-fix release only for the 9.x series and OSX 64-bit port
Layout Modeler ??? (HC) - Companion for whatever the Core package will include with new features
Core
And the first two share code, i.e. the fixes in 9.6.1 end up in ???(HC) as well. While all three apparently share some code mainly for i/o.

Cheers,
Mike

True. Technically we are still talking about several builds and versions, but in terms of communication it seems NT is shifting towards a simpler, LightWave + CORE approach. I'd say keep going down that route :thumbsup:

VonBon
05-13-2010, 09:37 AM
It's always been 3 apps, i don't know how some of you
come up with 5 and 7. :D
and CORE is supposed to be unified

I said a while back maybe here or the HC forum, "Forget LW series 9"
I still think the focus should be on CORE.

Newtek i think is trying to please everyone and you can't.

shrox
05-13-2010, 10:02 AM
Nevermind the Bollocks, here's the Core Pistols!

CGI Addict
05-13-2010, 10:41 AM
And now you see, this is how NT works. They started this whole Core thing out with a scavenger hunt video/web viral that stunk up the joint. They then created a two-party system that caused more harm then good. Now they let the guy at the helm go, make a brief "mea culpa" new direction press release only to let all of us forums dudes go on endlessly about what's next.

NT just can't seem to get what others like AD, Modo, etc. do so well. And that is to quash all of the rumors, endless comments, with timely "professional" updates.

It feels like romper room on this forum. Everybody's tossing crap where they feel, and why, because NT either likes their users that way, or they (NT) simply won't do things the right way because they don't know how to. It's evidenced in they way they handled and are currently handling Core/LW. What's next?

Philbert
05-13-2010, 10:45 AM
i said it before. NT needs their own Podcast( like brad and modo). They could come out once a week and chatted with the community.
i mean i swear, i don't understand why they don't do it already. I mean Newtek are creators of VT and tricaster, so whats stopping them.

I actually saw an all NewTek podcast once like a year ago. i checked out the 1st episode, but I couldn't believe ho much it sounded like s scripted add for NT, Tricaster especially.


I personally dont mind havin several apps open, for example if Max crashes it crashes out right , generally when LW crashes you have modeller open and you can salvage something / vice-versa .

Of course there's also LW's auto-save. I think max has that too.

littlewaves
05-13-2010, 10:46 AM
Nevermind the Bollocks, here's the Core Pistols!

we can say bollocks but we can't say *****?

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 10:57 AM
:lol:
Among the blind, the one-eyed is king... but you don't have one eye either. So please, continue spreading the wisdom, it's your good right, but understand not being taken quite as serious by some any more (see VPR discussion). ;D

I do believe it's the other way around :hey:

I'm not the one who created a video demoing vpr and then started navigating and selecting polys in the same view port, in said video. Which for some strange reason...people think is not normal behavior or it shouldn't work that way.

Quite funny actually :tongue:


Kuzey

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 11:32 AM
Of course it should work that way... huh?!??! Oh my, you're really one of the slow ones, aren't you? Sorry, but do you actually read what is written trying to explain it to you? *sigh*
I mean, till now you didn't answer the question if you have experience with this sort of thing. And since you prefer not to listen, that's your own problem. :)

Sorry..I'm not as slow as you.

Have you not read the posts in which people are trying to explain to me, that the vpr viewport is not meant to work like a traditional viewport. eg...the vpr viewport is supposed to be just like fprime floating window but docked...no touching, no interaction.....where have you been all this time???

Kuzey

CGI Addict
05-13-2010, 11:33 AM
See what I mean . . .

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 12:06 PM
What? Those people explained to you that the interaction with the viewport while rendering is the advantage over other interactive, progressive renderers... *sigh* See, you didn't get it at all... :oye:

No, they said it's not normal and should be treated as just a previewer...eg docked fprime window. I wanted it more interactive and better, but people don't like the idea.

Kuzey

probiner
05-13-2010, 12:09 PM
I do believe it's the other way around :hey:

I'm not the one who created a video demoing vpr and then started navigating and selecting polys in the same view port, in said video. Which for some strange reason...people think is not normal behavior or it shouldn't work that way.

Quite funny actually :tongue:


Kuzey


What? Those people explained to you that the interaction with the viewport while rendering is the advantage over other interactive, progressive renderers... *sigh* See, you didn't get it at all... :oye:

Well oliver... The man is on sugar shots but he has a point. The path the video went was that you could see slelections and bounding boxes in the IPR, wich is something new i think. But gave the impression you will be able to operate in the VPR with simpler, but similar control to the OGL.

Anyway, stubborn man doesn't obstinates alone, though only one of you has ''eyes'' and only one has ''bugs'' :D

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 12:22 PM
Well oliver... The man is on sugar shots but he has a point. The path the video went was that you could see slelections and bounding boxes in the IPR, wich is something new i think. But gave the impression you will be able to operate in the VPR with simpler, but similar control to the OGL.

Anyway, stubborn man doesn't obstinates alone, though only one of you has ''eyes'' and only one has ''bugs'' :D

Bugs, because the possibilities are great for this. After all, I want it to be better than anything out there.

So, this is how Hardcore operates. Wow, now I know, how Kat and SplineGod might feel going up against the core cheerleaders.

Kuzey

arsad
05-13-2010, 12:24 PM
Hm, Probiner and Kuzey...

In the VPR window you can select, model and do everything you can do in an openGL window. So what is the problem?

soo many blind people in here... ;-)
But in my opinon this is partly NT's fault as their communication is far from clear and precise.

Kuzey
05-13-2010, 12:27 PM
Hm, Probiner and Kuzey...

In the VPR window you can select, model and do everything you can do in an openGL window. So what is the problem?

soo many blind people in here... ;-)
But in my opinon this is partly NT's fault as their communication is far from clear and precise.

Thank you arsad..hehe :agree:

Kuzey

dnch
05-13-2010, 12:34 PM
i am glad that NT is spending their money on developers instead on PR and marketing specialists... hopefully

colkai
05-13-2010, 12:45 PM
i am glad that NT is spending their money on developers instead on PR and marketing specialists... hopefully

Trouble is, unless NTs marketing moves on, no amount of developers will help sell a product.
Bad marketing with good product will not produce anywhere near the sales a good marketing strategy and demo of a product will.

So far, we've had over 12 months of talk of CORE, I'd wager many folks outside the HC forums are not clear on what it is and will be etc.
Then again, given it's infancy, I'm not even sure it *should* of been hyped when it was. Until Core 1.0 has a clear and locked release date and feature set, there is little point in trying to generate interest, only to have it wane as time drags on and on.

Titus
05-13-2010, 12:47 PM
i am glad that NT is spending their money on developers instead on PR and marketing specialists... hopefully

They need to spend money on developers _and_ marketing specialists.

dnch
05-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Trouble is, unless NTs marketing moves on, no amount of developers will help sell a product...

marketing specialists sell more products.. and generate more money to get more developers.. if they have something to sell..


...
anyway.. for me the good news is that there will be some develpoment on "old" lw ...
yes, maybe, there will be slowdown on CORE develpoment but, CORE is at least months to being usable for me (and i am not doing character animation, dynamics, tetrabilion polygon scenes or fancy stuff like that)
and i need to work..

silviotoledo
05-13-2010, 01:29 PM
Well, I don't believe in the future of Lightwave ( sad to say that ), but it's still very usefull at the present!

It seems CORE thing is too much work for the development team and will need a lot of extra time to be released. So Patience!

XSI is going die
Maya is going Legacy
Max is going robust and dirty to use
MODO does not pronunce about animation system
C4D is growing
BLENDER is for ecological people
Is HOUDINI dead? he he

The best thing would be open the CORE SDK to the 3rd part developers as soon as possible. They would turn on a bigger development team!

GraphXs
05-13-2010, 02:43 PM
I for one am glad that they aren't going to rush Core and improve the legacy LW where needed.

I just hope by Core v1 that they release work flows that will make Core v1 worth it. Like using it for Bullet then bring over the bullet data into Layout or other package. Replacing modeler would be nice, but I don't think it will have enough to take it's place.

I really want Newtek to round out the current LW, My list would be:
LW v10:

-Updates for exporting to other packages:FBX/Collada/whatever
-FiberFX additions/fixes
-CC's working like Sub-patches do
-UV working with edges and better UV controls, if not we have PLG
-Skinning in Layout
-A "camera mode" in Modeler
-Tool reduction in Modeler
-Update to IKboost
-Blending for Hypervoxels
-Jay3D dynamic/tools update for layout
-A better render pass system
-layout scene manager/states/ref
-Fixed animated cache
-Better GI performance
-Easy IK/Rig set-up in layout (like biped/CAT)

I'm sure I can think of more, but that's it for the moment.

GraphXs
05-13-2010, 02:45 PM
Hmmm...I wonder, now that the current LW will get some more love, will LWCAD 4 be on the current LW(9)(10) or still just Core?

zarti
05-13-2010, 02:52 PM
Hmmm...I wonder, now that the current LW will get some more love, will LWCAD 4 be on the current LW(9)(10) or still just Core?

the latest known rumour which caused another 'real rumour' was exactly about it; lwcad4>>core.only

Cageman
05-13-2010, 03:13 PM
... I also count five apps:
LightWave v9.6.x Open Beta,
LightwaveHC Beta,
Modeler Beta,
The Hub
and Core (Alpha? I hope this is not beata!!!)

Well, from a production standpoint, you would only make use of three apps; LWHC Layout, LWHC Modeler and CORE. You would not need to use LW9.6.1 Modeler or LW9.6.1 Layout as well as LWHC Layout and LWHC Modeler.

Why on earth are you counting the HUB as a separate application? That is just weird.

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 03:14 PM
Why on earth are you counting the HUB as a separate application? That is just weird.
Well, I suppose one could add lwsn and lside as well then :D

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
05-13-2010, 03:16 PM
True. Technically we are still talking about several builds and versions, but in terms of communication it seems NT is shifting towards a simpler, LightWave + CORE approach. I'd say keep going down that route :thumbsup:

LOL...

And that is exactly what has been going on for quite some time. LWHC+Core was something that was announced months and months ago.

OnlineRender
05-13-2010, 03:17 PM
and now you see, this is how nt works. They started this whole core thing out with a scavenger hunt video/web viral that stunk up the joint. ?



this is fightclub

probiner
05-13-2010, 03:17 PM
Why on earth are you counting the HUB as a separate application? That is just weird.

Yes and no. Cause while you do not have to deal with it like the others, the Hub deals with what you are doing and sometimes if it goes bananas, you go bananas...

Elmar Moelzer
05-13-2010, 03:18 PM
Well, I suppose one could add lwsn and lside as well then

You forgot LSED ;)

OnlineRender
05-13-2010, 03:22 PM
HUB uses RAM / power ! , SIMPLES ! ok low granted , but it's still classed app !

the hub is there to monitor !

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 03:27 PM
You forgot LSED ;)
No, but I didn't want to take all the fun away ;)

I'm sure there's at least two more ;)

Cheers,
Mike

zarti
05-13-2010, 03:28 PM
everybody seems to forget; RegisterLightwave.exe .

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 03:28 PM
HUB uses RAM / power ! , SIMPLES ! ok low granted , but it's still classed app !

the hub is there to monitor !
Hey, if the hub was a server then nobody would complain ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 03:28 PM
everybody seems to forget; RegisterLightwave.exe .
That's one... :)

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
05-13-2010, 03:30 PM
... the Modeler HC has its own build compared to the 9.6.x open beta build!
I count 6 apps in develpoment from Newtek :-)

Yeah.. but you forgot SpeedEdit and all the other videorelated software...

Lets get this straight once and for all, shall we?

LW9.6.1 (in development, Open Beta): Bugfix version, free for ALL owners of LW9.x series. This version is currently the last version for LW9.x series. This version consists of Modeler and Layout.

LWHC (in development, Open Beta for HC-members): A new version of Classic LW that is basicly a continuation of LW9.6 but with new features related to Colorspace workflows, rendering and data-exchange with CORE (among other things). This version is currently labeled HC (Hercules), but appart from the new features, it is still very much like LW9.6. Consists of Layout and Modeler and can be used completely without CORE.

CORE (in development, builds avaliable for HC-members): Next gen LightWave which will be bundled with LWHC to add new functionality that the users may take advantage of, such as Bullet-based Hard Body Dynamics.

zarti
05-13-2010, 03:31 PM
That's one... :)

now ... there are two others left ... :)

sampei
05-13-2010, 03:32 PM
-CC's working like Sub-patches do

could you explain this to me in a little more detail please?

Cageman
05-13-2010, 03:32 PM
HUB uses RAM / power ! , SIMPLES ! ok low granted , but it's still classed app !

the hub is there to monitor !

Actually, the HUB is there to bridge Modeler and Layout. You can turn it off.

zarti
05-13-2010, 03:36 PM
do not complain folks !

houdini has 115 .exes in its bin folder + uninstall.exe a level up ( ! ) ;)

Larry_g1s
05-13-2010, 03:57 PM
I for one am glad that they aren't going to rush Core and improve the legacy LW where needed.

I just hope by Core v1 that they release work flows that will make Core v1 worth it. Like using it for Bullet then bring over the bullet data into Layout or other package. Replacing modeler would be nice, but I don't think it will have enough to take it's place.

I really want Newtek to round out the current LW, My list would be:
LW v10:

-Updates for exporting to other packages:FBX/Collada/whatever
-FiberFX additions/fixes
-CC's working like Sub-patches do
-UV working with edges and better UV controls, if not we have PLG
-Skinning in Layout
-A "camera mode" in Modeler
-Tool reduction in Modeler
-Update to IKboost
-Blending for Hypervoxels
-Jay3D dynamic/tools update for layout
-A better render pass system
-layout scene manager/states/ref
-Fixed animated cache
-Better GI performance
-Easy IK/Rig set-up in layout (like biped/CAT)

I'm sure I can think of more, but that's it for the moment.Seems feasible (but what do I know) and Kickin' too!!!! Out of curiosity, why a 'Camera mode' for Modeler?

Cageman
05-13-2010, 04:05 PM
Seems feasible (but what do I know) and Kickin' too!!!! Out of curiosity, why a 'Camera mode' for Modeler?

Because being able to model things from Camera-POV is essential for optimizing assets.

EDIT: Though, since Modeler would actually need a timeline for this to actually make sense, I would vote for making CORE replace Modeler as soon as possible, since CORE allready have a timeline.

MentalFish
05-13-2010, 04:40 PM
LOL...

And that is exactly what has been going on for quite some time. LWHC+Core was something that was announced months and months ago.

I was told by a NT rep that LW classic was at the end of the line with 9.6.1 and that HardCore (or is it Hercules?) was there as a transitional solution to serve CORE as a helper and nothing much else.


This version is currently labeled HC (Hercules), but appart from the new features, it is still very much like LW9.6.

Hmm... I think it would be a better move to go for numerals for versioning, even if it is in a paid membership program. 10.0.buildnumber

All I am saying is that I believe the communication as of late, both from NT comments in the forum, hiring of Rob and David, as well as through interviews and newsletters have been a direction heading towards LightWave and Core, less about Core with a side dish of LWHC we saw several months ago. I like :thumbsup:

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 04:40 PM
EDIT: Though, since Modeler would actually need a timeline for this to actually make sense, I would vote for making CORE replace Modeler as soon as possible, since CORE allready have a timeline.
Or just make the viewports scriptable in classic ;)

Cheers,
Mike

danielkaiser
05-13-2010, 04:59 PM
I want cake.

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 05:01 PM
I want cake.
Yeah, and you'd probably want whipped cream and a cherry on top as well. :hey:

Sheesh, some people... :jester:

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
05-13-2010, 05:05 PM
Or just make the viewports scriptable in classic ;)

Cheers,
Mike

What would that require to be done from the devs, and in what way would that give the same functionality as in Modo or CORE?

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 05:09 PM
What would that require to be done from the devs, ...
Beats me, I'd suspect not that much actually, but who knows.
In the worst case one could just pass a transformation matrix for the camera to the viewport.

...and in what way would that give the same functionality as in Modo or CORE?
Two options:
1) Export the camera motion and load it into a Modeler script (with a frame selection or maybe even a mini-timeline).
2) Write a live connection between Modeler and Layout. Scrub in Layout -> updates the view in Modeler.

Edit: Actually, not quite. I think (not 100% sure as Modeler isn't my terrain) that there is no persistent plugin class for Modeler, i.e. one that runs permanently like master handlers do in Layout.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
05-13-2010, 05:16 PM
More thoughts...
The dev team could of course just use the hub to sync them.

However, one major issue would still be the placement of items within the scene which wouldn't transfer over (which it probably why it hasn't been done yet). That could be tackled, but may not be worth the effort.

On the other hand, the last time I used this kind of functionality (again, just for my work) was in modo, but that's because I needed both modelling and painting (to match a CG element to a backplate and match moved camera).

Cheers,
Mike

Bona
05-13-2010, 11:36 PM
Hi Lightwolf,

In dev's point of view, is it possible for NT to adjust the code in 9.6.1 or core and make the "legacy" plugins such as sas and fPrime to work?

Something like Rosetta in os x : )

Nemoid
05-14-2010, 02:46 AM
Well, reading carefully the original Rob and Chuck post, it talks about modeler and layout and CORE, without mentioning LW HC, but what i think is it's actually talking of modeler and layout HC, because they're the only ones able to share features with CORE.
What i think (and its confirmed by older post of NT developers too) is that LW 9.x series will not be updated further.

Actually, this is a good thing, because the effort to provide classic LW with new compelling features would be quite a waste of time, considering that major efforts should be put into CORE development.

This because while you can add new things onto the old Lw structure, similar features into a new and modern one will actually expand to their full potential, exploiting nodal structure, modeifier stack, operators, realtime preview and all the basic new possibilities CORE will offer.

If LW 9.x is updated, i guess we will only see minor fixes, not major ones. So we could see 9.6.2 or 3 with some bugfix/minor feature maybe. (this would need some clarification from NT, though just to know better what will happen with lw 9.x series)

Since Lw HC is practically Lw 9.x with added features, using no hub (YAY !!) and can be used without CORE , in the old fashioned workflow with modeler and layout, this is where we could see some new things, basically coming from CORE technology.
In this way, for people using LW HC will be like using next version of Lw, something like a Lw 10.:)

As long as CORE develops further, it will be more and more able to stand on its own, btw. some features will spread in LW HC too, allowing users to work partially with the current workflow, but with new possibilities.
Add CORE in the game if they want or need to.

Then after some more time, CORE will be able to stand totally on its own. This is were LW HC will be dropped as well, and we'll have Lightwave CORE Only.:agree:

Finally: since in the post is said "Look for the first communication from Rob and Chuck this week on the development progress of LightWave 3D with CORE Technology." I expect some further information directly from Rob and Chuck today (it's friday hehhe).:D

Lightwolf
05-14-2010, 04:43 AM
Hi Lightwolf,

In dev's point of view, is it possible for NT to adjust the code in 9.6.1 or core and make the "legacy" plugins such as sas and fPrime to work?

Something like Rosetta in os x : )
Well, they should be or could be made compatible to 9.6.1 easily, but that's up to the original developer (and only makes sense to work on once 9.6.1 is actually finished).
For Core: Well, theoretically yes but it would be so much work that it doesn't make any sense at all.

Cheers,
Mike

Skonk
05-14-2010, 05:44 AM
I expect some further information directly from Rob and Chuck today (it's friday hehhe).:D

Expecting information from Newtek is never a good idea.

Even when they set a time and place for giving us info, it practically never actually happens.

Nemoid
05-14-2010, 05:57 AM
Expecting information from Newtek is never a good idea.

Even when they set a time and place for giving us info, it practically never actually happens.

well, communication should be based on this:

1) i say i'll do something.
2) i do what i said.

Lightwolf
05-14-2010, 06:00 AM
well, communication should be based on this:

1) i say i'll do something.
2) i do what i said.
Well, preferably:

1) I did something.
2) I tell you about it.

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
05-14-2010, 06:02 AM
I'd be surprised to get anything substantive immediately. I'd assume meetings were productive, but drawing conclusions from them, deciding which to talk about, and putting those in a format suitable for public consumption isn't something that can really happen in a few minutes after the last session ends. We've seen that it's very easy to mistep, or for a careless word to be misread with unfortunate results. Even subtle hints often seem to arouse anxiety and contention. I think they're going to want things nailed down before going public.

So personally, I don't expect very much to appear immediately - beyond something like 'We held very fruitful talks this week, and the team is very positive about the future of LW and the benefits to its users, yadda, yadda ... we're looking forward to letting you in on the exciting details in the very near future'). Maybe sometime towards the end of next week, all of the discussions might be distilled into something we'll see. I know everyone is anxious for news, and I could be wrong, but I really expect it will take a little more time for detailed info to be forthcoming. We'll see.

Nemoid
05-14-2010, 06:23 AM
I'd be surprised to get anything substantive immediately. I'd assume meetings were productive, but drawing conclusions from them, deciding which to talk about, and putting those in a format suitable for public consumption isn't something that can really happen in a few minutes after the last session ends. We've seen that it's very easy to mistep, or for a careless word to be misread with unfortunate results. Even subtle hints often seem to arouse anxiety and contention. I think they're going to want things nailed down before going public.

So personally, I don't expect very much to appear immediately - beyond something like 'We held very fruitful talks this week, and the team is very positive about the future of LW and the benefits to its users, yadda, yadda ... we're looking forward to letting you in on the exciting details in the very near future'). Maybe sometime towards the end of next week, all of the discussions might be distilled into something we'll see. I know everyone is anxious for news, and I could be wrong, but I really expect it will take a little more time for detailed info to be forthcoming. We'll see.

Me too, but my point is more related to good communication with userbase.

If in Monday I write
"Look for the first communication.... this week "

who reads me expects some further information within that same week.

If I write
" Look for the first communication in the near future"

who reads expects some futher communication in a wider timeframe.

in any case, I have to do what i said.

I don't want to blame anyone.
However: the way i put it in this case could seem a silly point, but actually communication is important, it makes the difference for users and serves to keep them informed, without going for too much speculations.

SBowie
05-14-2010, 07:07 AM
Me too, but my point is more related to good communication with userbase.I don't disagree with the valid points you make, just offering my remarks on what might realistically turn out to be the case.

Bona
05-14-2010, 07:27 AM
Well, they should be or could be made compatible to 9.6.1 easily, but that's up to the original developer (and only makes sense to work on once 9.6.1 is actually finished).
For Core: Well, theoretically yes but it would be so much work that it doesn't make any sense at all.


Thank you, Mike :)

GraphXs
05-14-2010, 08:05 AM
could you explain this to me in a little more detail please?

In regards to UV's, mirroring,etc,etc. Subpatches in LW work with everything, CC's blow-up or don't work. It would be also nice if CC's could divide the poly similar to SD's. (As far as poly count division)

probiner
05-14-2010, 01:26 PM
In regards to UV's, mirroring,etc,etc. Subpatches in LW work with everything, CC's blow-up or don't work. It would be also nice if CC's could divide the poly similar to SD's. (As far as poly count division)

That will never happen. CC will be always 2^SubdLevel divisions.
What could be improved is:

-Proper Edge Weighting without mesh "blowing up" when editing the mesh.
-UV Interpolation other than Linear, and like other packages do it. (Altough i think LW interpolates those seam points in a more rational way, it's not good when the UV doesn't match Painting Apps.)
-Performance (It seems fixed in the CORE video, altough i don't know if it was CC)

3dWannabe
05-17-2010, 08:18 AM
Here's my 2 cents for priorities (BTW - I'm encouraged that Layout/Modeler won't disappear soon, and continue to purchase tools for LW 9.x)

1. IKBoost. This is one of LW's real gems and it could use some enhancements like hot keys. I'm sure SplineGod could elaborate. It definitely must NOT disappear. In fact, if you hired Daisuke Ino back, that would be the most positive news I could hear!

2. As Adobe has chosen nVidia GPUs, follow their lead and implement nVidia GPU rendering.

3. Add to the plug-in interface so that plug-ins can talk to each other and exchange data. This would generate more features, more development by 3rd party vendors (as they could charge for upgrades), and happier users.
Ask the top plug-in vendors what they need to do a better job - and provide it.

4. Any missing passes such as the coverage pass. I'm sure Michael Wolf has a firm grasp of what's needed.

4. Bug fixes. I've seen outstanding bugs from years ago mentioned on the forums. Actually fix them (kudos for the increased stream of betas lately!)

5. As most of the tutorials I've purchased are from SplineGod, and he uses LW pretty heavily in a production environment, I'd like to make whatever his list contains a high priority.

The same goes for so many other high-posting contributors who strive to make LW the 'best it can be'.

cc3d
05-17-2010, 10:34 AM
bottom line: I'm wondering when I will get something useful for my investment in Core two years ago?

Philbert
05-17-2010, 10:51 AM
I want cake.


bottom line: I'm wondering when I will get something useful for my investment in Core two years ago?

Two? Try one, maybe slightly more.

hrgiger
05-17-2010, 01:26 PM
bottom line: I'm wondering when I will get something useful for my investment in Core two years ago?

That was only a little more then a year ago now when a CORE membership became available to purchase.

colkai
05-18-2010, 01:56 AM
That sort of timescale is not without precedent either when it comes to upgrades for LW being "final". Not unknown for a release to go beyond 18 months in the making, given Core is a new package being developed alongside LW10 / HC then I suppose you can logically expect even longer before the release.
I guess the question, which someone like Steve could probably answer is, just how usable in day to day work is it so far? Is it that it is not ready, or it is not ready and not usable in real terms?
The two are quite distinct.

achrystie
05-25-2010, 06:37 AM
Not sure what the purpose of this announcement was, other than to make the lightwave product line even MORE confusing to those of us that have not bought into the CORE/HardCORE (whatever it's called) program.

Here's what I can decipher:
1) Newtek has the "new hotness" they are working on, which is either titled CORE, HardCORE, or Hercules.
2) Newtek also has Lightwave 9.6.1 which they are continuing to develop "a bit" from a maintenance standpoint and maybe some small updates given what they have done with other development.
3) At some point, as yet undetermined, they will release a new product, and that will be Lightwave 3D with a third "new" program bundled with it that has some advances, but is mostly redundant features with BOTH modeler and layout. This third product is CORE, but not named CORE, it's a release, and part of HardCORE, but HardCORE is really just the "service" of being part of the development cycle, where as CORE is the actual program, but the name is not set in stone so it might be Hercules, or is that yet another development?

Am I right?
Can you see my confusion?

What I do know is, I'm REALLY glad I didn't buy into the beta/alpha development cycle thing last year.

Kuzey
05-25-2010, 06:46 AM
Haha...that sounds about right :hey:

Seriously...it's been about two weeks and we still don't know what the future of LW/Core is. Newtek, can we at least get a eta on when you plan to inform your customers?

Kuzey

erikals
05-25-2010, 06:58 AM
ETA is this year.

erikals
05-25-2010, 07:01 AM
Not sure what the purpose of this announcement was, other than to make the lightwave product line even MORE confusing to those of us that have not bought into the CORE/HardCORE (whatever it's called) program.

Here's what I can decipher:
1) Newtek has the "new hotness" they are working on, which is either titled CORE, HardCORE, or Hercules.
2) Newtek also has Lightwave 9.6.1 which they are continuing to develop "a bit" from a maintenance standpoint and maybe some small updates given what they have done with other development.
3) At some point, as yet undetermined, they will release a new product, and that will be Lightwave 3D with a third "new" program bundled with it that has some advances, but is mostly redundant features with BOTH modeler and layout. This third product is CORE, but not named CORE, it's a release, and part of HardCORE, but HardCORE is really just the "service" of being part of the development cycle, where as CORE is the actual program, but the name is not set in stone so it might be Hercules, or is that yet another development?

Am I right?
Can you see my confusion?

What I do know is, I'm REALLY glad I didn't buy into the beta/alpha development cycle thing last year.

it's simple,

the new program is "Lightwave 3D Suite" and consists of,
-CORE
-Modeler
-Layout

in the future, when Modeler/Layout is dropped, it will change to "Lightwave CORE"

Kuzey
05-25-2010, 07:06 AM
ETA is this year.

Are you talking about the release of the new product, or the information about the new product/new direction...hehe.

Or both......:D

Kuzey

Kuzey
05-25-2010, 07:08 AM
BTW...why is Rob Powers still missing in action from the forums....just curious as always :hey:

Kuzey

erikals
05-25-2010, 07:15 AM
both http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/047.gif

Tranimatronic
05-25-2010, 07:19 AM
I guess the question, which someone like Steve could probably answer is, just how usable in day to day work is it so far? Is it that it is not ready, or it is not ready and not usable in real terms?
The two are quite distinct.

As of right now, for some people A and others B, I unfortunately am in the latter category. It IS improving however. Don't think I am allowed to say much more than that......

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 01:15 PM
Personally, I think they should first serve the customers who invested in LW 9.x, as the brochures clearly outline features which dont work as advertised (aka crash way too often to be "out of beta"), like FiberFX.
Teasing someone with a hypothetical product "that does everything better" isnt proper service to the client who paid for the current software.
I am not buying a future software, I am buying what is offered NOW, and that must work as advertised otherwise I am pissed.

I don't think that FiberFX was part of the LW 9.x series. That is just a plugin they bought at the corner store and threw into the pot at the very end to keep you from complaining about the things that they promise and didn't delivered, not to mention the bugs. LW 9.6 being the end of the line they figure they would never have to deal with it again. Things don't always work as planned.

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 01:19 PM
Wow, both mean spirited and untrue. I'm not calling you a liar, but you are either misinformed or uninformed.

I'm also not saying "oh my god this 3 app suite is going to be so amazing." I am saying that it is a step in the right direction.

I am saying that if he took a guess it was a very good one. And his statement is a lot more fairer than the hardcore people coming down here and spreading sunshine when the sky is full of black clouds.

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 01:21 PM
After a couple of days of speculating and questionings about LW9.6.x and LWHC and so on, would'nt it make sence if if the decon or some one from newtek cleard things up abit.
Don't they read at least the treads they start?
I'm sure if it was on another forum that some one with credability would have said somthing to clearefy the disscussions.
The information from Netek seems to happen only in the Newsletters, then we're left hanging until the next newsletter. What's up with that? Drop the bomb and stay clear?
Im not trying to start some blame game here, but it would sure give the whole community some stabillity. Less speculations, and more clarifications. If they cant awnser do to NDA's or what not, just say so. But at least say that.

Am I beeing totaly out of line here or could it be reasonable?!?

I wouldn't bet on that.

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 01:32 PM
Bugs, because the possibilities are great for this. After all, I want it to be better than anything out there.

So, this is how Hardcore operates. Wow, now I know, how Kat and SplineGod might feel going up against the core cheerleaders.

Kuzey

Its worst than that.

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 01:47 PM
I was told by a NT rep that LW classic was at the end of the line with 9.6.1 and that HardCore (or is it Hercules?) was there as a transitional solution to serve CORE as a helper and nothing much else.


Hmm... I think it would be a better move to go for numerals for versioning, even if it is in a paid membership program. 10.0.buildnumber

All I am saying is that I believe the communication as of late, both from NT comments in the forum, hiring of Rob and David, as well as through interviews and newsletters have been a direction heading towards LightWave and Core, less about Core with a side dish of LWHC we saw several months ago. I like :thumbsup:

Who is helping who?

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 02:01 PM
it's simple,

the new program is "Lightwave 3D Suite" and consists of,
-CORE
-Modeler
-Layout

in the future, when Modeler/Layout is dropped, it will change to "Lightwave CORE"

Not necessarily.

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 02:04 PM
As of right now, for some people A and others B, I unfortunately am in the latter category. It IS improving however. Don't think I am allowed to say much more than that......

If you are allowed to say that it is improving then I am allowed to say not by much.

wsantiago
05-25-2010, 02:13 PM
That was only a little more then a year ago now when a CORE membership became available to purchase.

How quick you are to stomp on people. Even if it was a little more than a year ago that would make it 5 months pass the original release date and most likely will be two years before he sees anything worth talking about.

Philbert
05-25-2010, 02:25 PM
@wsantiago You know there's a multi-quote button right? You don't have to post a dozen times to quote different people.

hrgiger
05-25-2010, 02:36 PM
How quick you are to stomp on people. Even if it was a little more than a year ago that would make it 5 months pass the original release date and most likely will be two years before he sees anything worth talking about.

Stating a fact is 'stomping' on people? Who cares if it's late? Ask most people if they want it to be on time or to be right and most would take the latter. They underestimated the time it would take to develop the new application, they said it, most of us got over it months ago, but keep on crying if it makes you feel better.

Tranimatronic
05-25-2010, 03:01 PM
@wsantiago You know there's a multi-quote button right? .

Actually I didn't. Where exactly ??

Philbert
05-25-2010, 03:07 PM
Actually I didn't. Where exactly ??

The button with the "quotes" icon right next the Quote button at the bottom of every post. Click it and it turns green. Click it for each person you want to quote and then hit the normal Post Reply button at the bottom of the page.

Tranimatronic
05-25-2010, 03:11 PM
oh wow.
You learn something new every day.
Thanks guys !!

speismonqui
05-25-2010, 03:51 PM
@wsantiago you know there's a multi-quote button right? You don't have to post a dozen times to quote different people.

:d

Shnoze Shmon
05-25-2010, 08:08 PM
...so ... umm... uh... does this come with fries?














:D

pnevai
05-28-2010, 07:50 AM
"As a side note, for those of you who need LightWave CORE to replace LightWave Classic as soon as possible, why not look for the tools and features you want/need in plugins and other applications to support LightWave? I wanted a good comping and tracking solution, so shelled out on NukeX and most recently I jumped in on the early adopter deal for Turbulence. I don't need NewTek to give me ALL the tools I could think of as useful, I am fine with Jawset getting some of my money for me to get my hands on their production proven smoke and fire solution."

Because Some of us PAID for HardCOre Membership, and have not seen anything to show for it!

Philbert
05-28-2010, 07:56 AM
I don't need NewTek to give me ALL the tools I could think of as useful, I am fine with Jawset getting some of my money for me to get my hands on their production proven smoke and fire solution."


Many of these tools will be available for CORE as well, so authors like Jawset will still get your money anyway.

the3dwiz
06-02-2010, 09:42 AM
Any news on this topic that i may have missed? Actually any news since this anouncement? (I was bussy with my Bachelor thesis, therefore not very good informed!)

Triodin
06-03-2010, 12:59 PM
Ditto, we need a discussion summary every few pages or so!

Kuzey
06-05-2010, 04:58 AM
Whats the time Mr. Wolf????

:hey:

Kuzey

Lightwolf
06-05-2010, 08:26 AM
Whats the time Mr. Wolf????

:stumped: Did I miss something?

Cheers,
Mike

Kuzey
06-05-2010, 11:54 AM
:stumped: Did I miss something?

Cheers,
Mike

Haha...yes:

It's a child's game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_time,_Mr_Wolf%3F)...a bit like tag, you're it.

Basically, Chuck/Rob and or Newtek is the wolf in this case. We ask the wolf, what's the time(eg...is news on core ready yet). The wolf responds with a time....if it's not ready and "Dinner Time" once the news on Core is ready.

Just having fun...asking in a different way, any news on the future of Core and what it all means etc. :hey:

Kuzey

the3dwiz
06-05-2010, 12:05 PM
It looks like there was no new infos in the last 3,5 Weeks. Then lets wait for the June newsletter, and hope there are some answers to all the burning questions.

geothefaust
06-05-2010, 12:11 PM
I wouldn't expect any life changing information. Frankly, I grew pretty weary of what was going on, and have since moved away from HC/CORE and am waiting on a refund.


If CORE is stellar and usable upon release, I'll pick it up then. In the mean time, I am searching for the application that will suit my needs at a decent price.

Kuzey
06-05-2010, 12:36 PM
I wouldn't expect any life changing information. Frankly, I grew pretty weary of what was going on, and have since moved away from HC/CORE and am waiting on a refund.


If CORE is stellar and usable upon release, I'll pick it up then. In the mean time, I am searching for the application that will suit my needs at a decent price.

I'm not expecting a public HC/Core beta anytime soon..just some answers to basic questions...that's all.

Btw...did you guys in HC, get any new information in the past month on the future of Core and what the changes mean??

Kuzey

geo_n
06-05-2010, 11:04 PM
I'm not expecting a public HC/Core beta anytime soon..just some answers to basic questions...that's all.

Btw...did you guys in HC, get any new information in the past month on the future of Core and what the changes mean??

Kuzey

There was an announcement a few days ago. And whats planned is worth more than the 400US to get into core. Imho the planned core 1.0 modeller bullet dynamics b4 for me was no so exciting. Now there would be enhancements to lw too which was said to be impossible to do b4. Not saying anything specific though. Anyway my job relies on lw and 3dmax not core so im glad theyre not totallly neglecting lw.

Kuzey
06-06-2010, 06:01 AM
There was an announcement a few days ago. And whats planned is worth more than the 400US to get into core. Imho the planned core 1.0 modeller bullet dynamics b4 for me was no so exciting. Now there would be enhancements to lw too which was said to be impossible to do b4. Not saying anything specific though. Anyway my job relies on lw and 3dmax not core so im glad theyre not totallly neglecting lw.

Thanks geo_n,

So...the rest of us will get news trickling down in a week or two...hehe :hey:

Sounds like they are actually going to rebuild LW10 from the ground up, to take advantage of Core's High polygon count and other cool features.

That would mean Core might take twice the time to be a complete standalone app....which I have no problem with, as long as the next version is way better than the last version :hey:

Kuzey

OnlineRender
06-06-2010, 07:44 AM
and have since moved away from HC/CORE and am waiting on a refund.



I gather your not the only one in this situation , it's a sad day when a company has to go back into there own pocket .

NT have made some " RADICAL" changes some of which are excellent ,
and some that are just a kick right in the nuts for some people . " you know who you are " . :cursin:

hrgiger
06-06-2010, 08:28 AM
Thanks geo_n,

So...the rest of us will get news trickling down in a week or two...hehe :hey:

Sounds like they are actually going to rebuild LW10 from the ground up, to take advantage of Core's High polygon count and other cool features.

That would mean Core might take twice the time to be a complete standalone app....which I have no problem with, as long as the next version is way better than the last version :hey:

Kuzey

I wouldn't say a 'rebuild' but there will probably be some fairly significant updates/changes. I think the bottom line is they realize that CORE is going to take some time and so they just can't let Lightwave languish in the wind in the meantime. Also, to make this temporary 3-app workflow work, there has to be reliable data exchange between them.

The good news in all of this is that CORE is still the future, a single unified node based application. The bad news as always is we just don't know how long it's going to take.

geo_n
06-06-2010, 08:30 AM
Sounds like they are actually going to rebuild LW10 from the ground up, to take advantage of Core's High polygon count and other cool features.


Not a rebuild but an enhancement. Which to me those enhancements are worth the price of admission. Some plugins cost more than what people paid for in core.
There's no reason to rebuild lw though when core is a complete rewrite and will be more powerful in the future.

Kuzey
06-06-2010, 02:48 PM
Not a rebuild but an enhancement. Which to me those enhancements are worth the price of admission. Some plugins cost more than what people paid for in core.
There's no reason to rebuild lw though when core is a complete rewrite and will be more powerful in the future.

Sure..but that's the future and who knows when we'll get there :D

We talked about the high polygon data feature in Core v LWHC before. The impression I got, was it will not be added to LWHC because it would require a total rewrite and as such...was a waste of time. Now that the Core program has been extended and LW10 seems no longer to be a temp app anymore, one would think that feature would be on the cards for LW10??

After all, it makes sense that LW10 can handle the same polygon counts as Core. Or you will have problems moving stuff between the two.

Unless, Newtek plans to add a bunch of 3rd party plugins to sweeten the pot and leave LW10 as is...that is with the same old code base (not a rewrite) etc.

Some answers from Newtek would clear things up...a bit :D

Kuzey

Kuzey
06-06-2010, 03:02 PM
Also...I presume the subscription upgrade model will go as well....until Core becomes a full standalone app?

Kuzey

hrgiger
06-06-2010, 05:43 PM
Also...I presume the subscription upgrade model will go as well....until Core becomes a full standalone app?

Kuzey

There's no saying it won't go beyond that. It is after all an open beta, just like version 9 was before it was released.

And calling it a subscription is kind of a misnomer anyway. You do get the final version of the software so it's really more like a pre-buy. Typically a subscription would be a service in itself beyond the price of the software but that's not the case here.

geothefaust
06-06-2010, 11:24 PM
I gather your not the only one in this situation , it's a sad day when a company has to go back into there own pocket .

NT have made some " RADICAL" changes some of which are excellent ,
and some that are just a kick right in the nuts for some people . " you know who you are " . :cursin:

;)


Yeah, we'll see how it goes. If and when they can pull it together and get the product out the door that is useful enough to use and can do the things I need, I'll likely take a look at it.

Until then, I am switching packages slowly.

danielkaiser
06-07-2010, 02:50 AM
I wouldn't expect any life changing information. Frankly, I grew pretty weary of what was going on, and have since moved away from HC/CORE and am waiting on a refund.


If CORE is stellar and usable upon release, I'll pick it up then. In the mean time, I am searching for the application that will suit my needs at a decent price.

You could always gift your HC membership to the needy.

Kuzey
06-07-2010, 05:16 AM
There's no saying it won't go beyond that. It is after all an open beta, just like version 9 was before it was released.

And calling it a subscription is kind of a misnomer anyway. You do get the final version of the software so it's really more like a pre-buy. Typically a subscription would be a service in itself beyond the price of the software but that's not the case here.

Unfortunately.....the final version will still be a beta (incomplete and still requiring LW10) and the idea of updating your subscription plan yearly....during that period, does not make sense.

So...as I see it, it's not the same as 9. Unless, Newtek have extended the current subscription period to the day Core becomes a full and standalone app.

Kuzey

Andyjaggy
06-07-2010, 08:09 AM
I wouldn't expect any life changing information. Frankly, I grew pretty weary of what was going on, and have since moved away from HC/CORE and am waiting on a refund.


If CORE is stellar and usable upon release, I'll pick it up then. In the mean time, I am searching for the application that will suit my needs at a decent price.

Sounds like your going through exactly what I was about 9 months ago. :)

hrgiger
06-07-2010, 11:48 AM
Unfortunately.....the final version will still be a beta (incomplete and still requiring LW10) and the idea of updating your subscription plan yearly....during that period, does not make sense.

So...as I see it, it's not the same as 9. Unless, Newtek have extended the current subscription period to the day Core becomes a full and standalone app.

Kuzey

Just because CORE is not a standalone app does not relegate it to permanent beta status until such a day when it is standalone. CORE will come out of beta and be released when it's intended features for version 1 are ready. Then it will enter beta for version 2 but version 1 is complete with it's intended scope. The next major version of Lightwave is comprised of CORE, modeler, and Layout. Currently we are in the public alpha/beta for all 3 of those applications just like we were in the public beta for version 9. It's the same as version 9 because you had to upgrade to that as well to be eligible.

Philbert
06-07-2010, 12:24 PM
I agree, they stated a set of features for v1 when those features are working and available it's no longer in beta.

Kuzey
06-07-2010, 01:34 PM
Just because CORE is not a standalone app does not relegate it to permanent beta status until such a day when it is standalone. CORE will come out of beta and be released when it's intended features for version 1 are ready. Then it will enter beta for version 2 but version 1 is complete with it's intended scope. The next major version of Lightwave is comprised of CORE, modeler, and Layout. Currently we are in the public alpha/beta for all 3 of those applications just like we were in the public beta for version 9. It's the same as version 9 because you had to upgrade to that as well to be eligible.

It depends on how you see things. I'm interested in Core as a full app and not as a plugin for LW :hey:

Beta...toy...production ready...not complete..they are just words. The fact is, Core will need LW for some years to function...hence, it's not ready to take over on it's own. So in that light, it's not the same as 9...we paid once and eventually got 9 and it didn't require LW7.5 or 8.5 to function either. Paying yearly, for an unfinished product, is like paying for LW 9 every 6 months or so...when you already own it.

Put it another way...say, someone keeps their subscription up to date and Core becomes a standalone app in 6 years. This person would have paid 6 x $500 (or whatever) for a full app, when I could just pay $500 at the end and then upgrade yearly, to get bug fixes and new features from that point on.

And yes, I know the argument about being able to shape the future of Core and getting a running start on it's features etc. That idea doesn't seem to have work out for Newtek...with around a 1,000 or so hardcore members and people seeming to jump ship as well.

The marketing department has a problem, if they want to continue with the subscription model while Core is not the only LW. I don't mind it being implemented after wards....as mentioned earlier, but not now.

Kuzey

hrgiger
06-07-2010, 01:40 PM
Put it another way...say, someone keeps their subscription up to date and Core becomes a standalone app in 6 years. This person would have paid 6 x $500 (or whatever) for a full app, when I could just pay $500 at the end and then upgrade yearly, to get bug fixes and new features from that point on.


Well sure, but do you want to go 6 years without any new features or functionality? You have to remember that you're not only getting new features with CORE in each new version but you're also getting new additions to your existing modeler/layout along with that for as long as the apps are working together. Modeler and Layout are going to be much different after those 6 years that might make current versions look pretty sparse.

Kuzey
06-07-2010, 02:18 PM
Well sure, but do you want to go 6 years without any new features or functionality? You have to remember that you're not only getting new features with CORE in each new version but you're also getting new additions to your existing modeler/layout along with that for as long as the apps are working together. Modeler and Layout are going to be much different after those 6 years that might make current versions look pretty sparse.

Mmmm...thinking about it :D

I would rather upgrade to LW10...like we did in the past and worry about Core (LW11), when it has matured and can be regarded as a true LW replacement.

However, it all depends on how long it will take to get there. If it's a few years...I can wait for Core and skip LW10. If it's longer (4 years and more), then I expect LW10 to get a ton of new features and a total rewrite as well. After all, they could port that new code base later to Core...like they are planing to do with the render engine etc.

But, it's all a mess at the moment.....come on Newtek....start talking :D

Kuzey

geothefaust
06-07-2010, 03:07 PM
You could always gift your HC membership to the needy.

Not a bad thought! Though I hate to put someone through the same annoyances I and others have had with the program in it's current status.... On that note I have already invested the money into another application. ;) Maybe next time.

geothefaust
06-07-2010, 03:08 PM
Sounds like your going through exactly what I was about 9 months ago. :)

Yeah, I just wished I had seen the light then, instead of now. Oh well.

Philbert
06-07-2010, 03:26 PM
Not a bad thought! Though I hate to put someone through the same annoyances I and others have had with the program in it's current status.... On that note I have already invested the money into another application. ;) Maybe next time.

Some things that annoy you might be just fine with others.

geothefaust
06-07-2010, 03:53 PM
That's a nice general thought, but doesn't really apply here.

No offense Phil, but unless you were in the HC program at that time, you'd be privy to what was going on, but I know you weren't. ;)


Nearly everyone on the forums was either angry or at very least annoyed. Only a handful of folks were none of the above, and most of those folks were apathetic or in "I told you so" mode.

Hieron
06-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Man, I'd almost get a subscription just to be able to understand what you are going on about :)

Philbert
06-07-2010, 04:25 PM
Yeah you're getting me more interested in signing up.

geothefaust
06-07-2010, 04:33 PM
It's not like I'm trying to dissuade other people from joining up any how. To each their own. :)


After all the blunders, I personally decided it was time to move on to a tool that is usable right now. There are plenty of things LW just cannot do, and the promise of CORE was to fill at least some of those gaps. This year in fact. But now, that is all in question, and especially the time line on said gap filling. So, time to move on to something that does work and do what I need, right now.

geothefaust
06-07-2010, 04:54 PM
Hey Mega,

I am not generalizing, at the time that was the feeling. Don't you recall? Only a handful of folks were happy with the situation. I have no idea what it is like right now in the HC program, since I am no longer in it and cannot comment on that. You can't compare the feeling of today and the feeling of that time at all and say I'm wrong just because it's different now than it was then.


I still feel the same way, therefore, am no longer part of the program.


Also, funny that NT finally decided to comment on their long term goals only after a number of people voiced up about their half-assed attempts at PR.


You're right, BTW, I only use LW for two things professionally, and that is modeler and the render engine. I was using it for rigging, there for a bit. But rigging in LW is pretty limited at best, and now use Messiah for rigging.

erikals
06-07-2010, 05:01 PM
"...and now use Messiah for rigging"

also check out Maestro.

Kuzey
06-07-2010, 05:17 PM
In fact, MANY now are quite enthused that Rob has responded MANY, MANY times in one thread answering MANY questions. And now MANY are looking forward to what is ahead.


Good to see Rob actually taking part in the HC forums...shame, he or Chuck haven't gone public yet...you know....in the real world :D

Kuzey

hrgiger
06-07-2010, 05:40 PM
Nearly everyone on the forums was either angry or at very least annoyed. Only a handful of folks were none of the above, and most of those folks were apathetic or in "I told you so" mode.

Well, I don't think that's a very apt description at all Javis. One that I cannot concur with.

What I do know is that Newtek was cool enough to continue the option of providing refunds to those who felt like the CORE experience was not for them at this time for which 6 or 7 people have taken in the last year and a half. Maybe not making generalities about how several hundred other people felt would be the better thing to do.

geothefaust
06-07-2010, 05:46 PM
There were a couple dozen folks since I have left that have told me how they agree, and they know who they are. I'd say that's a pretty good portion of folks.


EDIT: That's in addition to the folks who were publicly speaking out as well. Which I'm exactly unsure of the number, but I know there were quite a few.


Either way, we're allowed to disagree with each other, and that's fine by me. I disagree with lots of folks on lots of points. But I wont even consider to tell them how to think or what they should or shouldn't do, and would appreciate the same consideration in return. :)

hrgiger
06-07-2010, 05:47 PM
If they listen to people like Pooby, Kat, Cageman and Splinegod.... and they seem to be heading MORE in that direction as of late, then things are looking very much up! :thumbsup:

Hmmm, not sure a few of those people would agree with each other....

colkai
06-08-2010, 05:40 AM
Personally, I am still baffled by the CORE switch, which now seems to be switching partly back to "LW + Core technology".

I speak from far too many years of experience coding, there was no natural reason why code couldn't be refined (rebuilt) behind the scenes. Indeed, we were told on a few occasions that is exactly what had happened, brand new code but seamless for the user, (as it should be).

Then boom, we got "oh, we can't possibly re-write without this new design", something felt "off" to me whilst i was in HC and I did not like the taste at all. Then dates start to slip and slip and I felt that old "let's throw new stuff in and worry about getting things working later" feeling surfacing, so I baled.

To date, I have heard nothing that makes me regret my choice at all, far from it.

The one thing that still strikes me is the "it'll be great...eventually" view most seem to be taking. I don't mind paying up front for a guitar to be built, but at least I know the wait is only a couple of months tops.
So far, 2 years in design, around 15 months since CORE was announced and "it'll get there one day" as a deadline, it truly is going to have to pummel the likes of Modo and XSI to get people showing interest.
Even Blender (already) has the much vaunted Bullet physics, so the next Core / LW release is going to have to be pretty spectacular to woo folks into buying into it. If it isn't and it's a case of "oh, just wait until another release or so, it'll be amazing", there isn't going to be much incentive for folks to return to LW or stay around on trust.

If the general consensus is that no, it won't be the be all and end all, just who exactly is Core 1.0 aimed at? The XSI / Modo / Maya user has a powerful toolset already. LW9.6 users will need something to convince them to upgrade instead of simply continuing to use 9.6 until CORE has found it's feet. Hobbyists have the likes of Blender for free, where they get fluids, dynamics, smoke, non linear editing, game engine etc.

I dunno what to make of some of the choices taken by Newtek at all, as a user, I am completely baffled, as a coder, even moreso.
As I've said before, it's going to be a hard-sell, I shall be watching with interest to see how it pans out. in terms of how the final release of Core 1.0 is handled and who is targeted and how.
We know, indeed it is very clear, the faithful are already committed, not just to Core 1.0 but also to supporting Newtek for how ever long it takes, the question is, how will those outside of the flock see matters? Grab the popcorn, could be an interesting show. :)

erikals
06-08-2010, 05:55 AM
i guess why i'm not surprised is because i expected this to happen.

if you look at 3D history and the problems with rewrites, coding, and the fact that 3D apps today have 300% more features than they did 10 years ago, it goes without saying, imo.

Andyjaggy
06-08-2010, 08:12 AM
I don't regret selling my Core license one bit. I think Colkai pretty much summed up my feelings. It's going to be a very hard sale to get anyone but the diehard LW and Newtek fans to buy into it.

Matt
06-08-2010, 08:36 AM
It's going to be a very hard sale to get anyone but the diehard LW and Newtek fans to buy into it.

And what will do it will be (if I was in the same boat):

- Quality of features, not quantity - must be genuinely useful
- Videos demonstrating superior workflow
- Gorgeous examples (be it rendering, dynamics calcs or whatever)
- Good supporting material (website, online purchasing/registration, documentation etc.)

Every single aspect (from simple emails to full blown reveals/presentations) must ooze professionalism, seriousness as well as sexiness!