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MAUROCOR
05-07-2010, 12:57 PM
Hi, there!

I donīt know if that is the best place to post it, but letīs do it anyway.

I have created this Hulk (2010_version) and because the mesh is too dense I started rigging without weight maps (actualy there are some in the hands and fingers) but I donīt know if I am doing things well, so I would like to propose to you, those who are interested in rigging, to create your own and share with the rest of us here, this way we can learn and everybody can improve a little bit more.
I have created the base mesh in modeler, worked in ZBrush and did the retopoly in ZBrush too, and finaly I exported the model to Modeler again.


Here is the model you can get:


http://www.maurocor.com/imagens/stuff/Hulk_2010.rar



And here some images that maybe make you excited about this project...



http://www.maurocor.com/imagens/stuff/hulk_2010_1.jpg


http://www.maurocor.com/imagens/stuff/hulk_2010_2.jpg


When I finish my own rigging I will post here too.

probiner
05-07-2010, 01:23 PM
Great Innitiative! rare to see Rigging Challanges =) And great model by the way (yes, its dense :D)

I wonder how this initiative will turn up. I'll give it a look.

It could be interesting though if the more experienced riggers here would come to some guidelines and ppl would it by parts, even if the result would be different rigs (say Larry with an IKB rig, RebelHill with his view, Castius, Eric, etc..). Since it's a community project and the results are for everyone, each person doing the whole rig, might be very time consuming and show stopper. Say some ppl take care of the arms, other of the legs, other of the hands/feet, face, core, etc, etc.
This is just a thought over your great idea.


Cheers :thumbsup:

MAUROCOR
05-07-2010, 01:45 PM
Great Innitiative! rare to see Rigging Challanges =) And great model by the way (yes, its dense :D)

I wonder how this initiative will turn up. I'll give it a look.

It could be interesting though if the more experienced riggers here would come to some guidelines and ppl would it by parts, even if the result would be different rigs (say Larry with an IKB rig, RebelHill with his view, Castius, Eric, etc..). Since it's a community project and the results are for everyone, each person doing the whole rig, might be very time consuming and show stopper. Say some ppl take care of the arms, other of the legs, other of the hands/feet, face, core, etc, etc.
This is just a thought over your great idea.


Cheers :thumbsup:


It is ok for me, probiner, letīs invite them to participate directly!
I will send some private messages and letīs see what happen.

BTW, just to clarify, it is not a challenge, just a way to share some topics and a way to learn a little bit more.

Thanks for your feedback!
:thumbsup:

RebelHill
05-07-2010, 01:54 PM
Too poly heavy for my tastes, and without good edgeloops at major joints to aid deforms, Im afraid.

MAUROCOR
05-07-2010, 01:58 PM
Too poly heavy for my tastes, and without good edgeloops at major joints to aid deforms, Im afraid.


I was looking some post of you just to send you an invitation to participate and here you are.

I donīt think the edge loops are wrong. I already started rigging this guy and til now I got some reazonable results.
Could you try when you have some time?
:thumbsup:

RebelHill
05-07-2010, 02:02 PM
Nah, honestly... it way too heavy for me, the mesh wont fit my rig at all... it'll rig, itll just deform like crap. sorry.

jasonwestmas
05-07-2010, 02:12 PM
The best way to approach this is to create a control cage with simple edgeloops and apply a displacement map for the muscle groups. Like Rebel Hill said you aren't going to get good deformations with this as the control cage.

hrgiger
05-07-2010, 02:35 PM
If I get some time Maurocor, would you mind if I took a stab at retopo on this guy? Then maybe Rebel might be willing to take a stab at it.

It's a lot of stabbing I know, but it might work out.

MAUROCOR
05-07-2010, 02:42 PM
If I get some time Maurocor, would you mind if I took a stab at retopo on this guy? Then maybe Rebel might be willing to take a stab at it.

It's a lot of stabbing I know, but it might work out.


It is ok for me, althought the initial intention was to create the rigging in a very dense mesh. I know it is possible, I have seen other people doing this very well without using weight maps.
But feel free to redo the topology, maybe this way we get more people participating of this exercise.
;)

hrgiger
05-07-2010, 03:45 PM
Cool, I haven't used my topogun in a while so I can break that out again. I'll send it you first when I do it and you can post it at your leisure.

The Scientist
05-07-2010, 04:44 PM
Model looks nice. I'll see what I can do.

h2oStudios
05-07-2010, 05:42 PM
Ouch. That is a beast. Yeah, I think some retopo would be in order for some areas. Shoulders/Armpit area stand out right off the bat, along with other "joint" areas. Although I must say, "NICE F**king Model", lol.

PS- At least now we have a Rigging Challenge for once instead of just Speed Modelling. :D

SplineGod
05-07-2010, 08:02 PM
I also agree about the mesh density.
The point of using SubDs for example is to have a lower rez cage that deforms well and also speeds up the animation process.
Theres two things to consider with rigging:
1. Animation
2. Deformations
Trying to mix the two at the same time typically results in a very slow rig. This is why in many videos on the "how it was made" portions of DVDs you generally see animators working with a chopped up, ugly low rez version just to get fast feedback off the rig.
The character animator generally isnt concerned about deformations or dont care until the actual character animation is done. After that the rig might be passed on to a technical animator who then makes the deformations work with the animation. Many times the animation is moved from the animation rig to a rig that has added stuff to deal with deformations.
With that in mind I would retopo the model to get one that is designed with deformations in mind and also create a lower rez version of the modell designed for animating quickly.

erikals
05-07-2010, 10:12 PM
Cool, I haven't used my topogun in a while so I can break that out again. I'll send it you first when I do it and you can post it at your leisure.

you can then make a displacement map based on the difference between the two models....
(just like creating a normal map)

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107868

Dodgy
05-08-2010, 03:50 AM
One thing I did with my latest anim was make a qemloss'd version of my object, and keep both in the scene. Set the hi to invisible in the Scene editor, and the low to 'unseen by camera' et al. Rig your low poly one, and set the hi poly one to 'Use bones from' your low poly one. this keeps the interactivity up in layout, but renders the hi one for your shot. Works really well.

erikals
05-08-2010, 03:52 AM
hm, sounds smart, does 'Use bones from' work with weightmaps on the high-res object though?

Dodgy
05-08-2010, 05:10 AM
Yup. Because qemloss also preserves vmaps, you can use morphmixer on the low poly object and use the MM save/load function to transfer animation across as well. If the high poly object is hidden or bounding box, Layout doesn't calculate deformations for it till render time, so it's dead nippy.

jasonwestmas
05-08-2010, 08:23 AM
One thing I did with my latest anim was make a qemloss'd version of my object, and keep both in the scene. Set the hi to invisible in the Scene editor, and the low to 'unseen by camera' et al. Rig your low poly one, and set the hi poly one to 'Use bones from' your low poly one. this keeps the interactivity up in layout, but renders the hi one for your shot. Works really well.

That's an awesome idea but it doesn't really give a lot of control over the deformations in how the geometry folds over as it bends. That's what concerns me the most with this model. This would all require tweaking of several weight maps, complicated ones. There is that one corrective morph plugin too but I haven't really tested that.

Dodgy
05-08-2010, 09:33 AM
Okay, but say once you rig the object to your satisfaction, run it through qemloss, saving under a different name, then use that object to animate with. It depends how your rig works, but you could use the method I describe to save hassle, or just replace the mesh at render time. There's a plugin to do that in LW I think, though I don't think it switches it back if you do a test render.
My method will work just as well boning the hi poly object and putting 'Use bones from' on the low object I think...

Alternately use clothfx scan and metalink to drive the high poly mesh with a low poly one. That's again, something I mainly use for dynamics.

There's lots of ways of doing this sort of thing.

jasonwestmas
05-08-2010, 09:54 AM
Okay, but say once you rig the object to your satisfaction, run it through qemloss, saving under a different name, then use that object to animate with. It depends how your rig works, but you could use the method I describe to save hassle, or just replace the mesh at render time. There's a plugin to do that in LW I think, though I don't think it switches it back if you do a test render.
My method will work just as well boning the hi poly object and putting 'Use bones from' on the low object I think...

Alternately use clothfx scan and metalink to drive the high poly mesh with a low poly one. That's again, something I mainly use for dynamics.

There's lots of ways of doing this sort of thing.

It will work technically, that's never a concern of mine. It's the edge-loops themselves and how they deform, that concerns me. (I'm not even concerned about the mesh density). Just not sure how someone is going to get the actual edge-loop deformations to look right. Because in the end you do have to deform the high poly mesh. The only methods of control that LW offers at a vertex level for deformations are weight maps, endomorphs and displacement maps, which are not very interactive for corrective morphs.

MAUROCOR
05-08-2010, 11:22 AM
Yes, you are right, the best way to do things correctly is having a low poly model to animate and a high poly to render, using same weight maps/bones. That is the way we do here in the studio.
But this proposal was different because the idea here was to rig this guy in this original mesh, maybe not using weight maps. Even if we have a low poly version, this high poly should be work very well in deformations too.

But, it is ok, I will try a little more the way I am trying to do.

And because you say you do prefer a model less dense, then here you have it.
I am putting this old Hulk too.
And in this case you canīt give any kind of excuse because it is clean, goog looping flow and realy low mesh.
So, letīs do it, guys!

You can get the model here:


http://www.maurocor.com/imagens/stuff/Hulk.rar


And here some shaded/wired view and a render that I did some time ago...


http://www.maurocor.com/imagens/stuff/hulk_lab.jpg


http://www.maurocor.com/imagens/stuff/hulk_old.jpg

VonBon
05-08-2010, 12:02 PM
Some things i thought were intresting when working on MeshMan was
to use misplaced weightmaps and sets of Joint chains to act as muscle
deformers.

say if you had a chain of 4 joints, you could use the outter two joints
as the anchors and the middle two as the flexors.

also i didn't understand what i was looking at but someone out there
was doing some type of mesh sliding in LW or either it was a
displacement trick.

VonBon
05-08-2010, 12:05 PM
we need to be able set morphs based on a set of conditions across
multiple items.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108706
haven't tried it, but maybe this can help.

sampei
05-08-2010, 03:01 PM
sorry I need to say what a greeat model! Mauro I think you should really make a character modeling tutorial (even commercial!). :D

MAUROCOR
05-09-2010, 05:58 PM
_VonBon- That sounds interesting, dude! Maybe you could try in this Hulk and see if you get good results on it.

_Sampei- It would be a very good idea if my english was good enough but certainly you wouldnīt want listen to me talking in english, hahaha...

erikals
05-10-2010, 08:03 AM
Maurocore, no problem, just use this,... ;]
http://www2.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php

MAUROCOR
05-11-2010, 07:43 AM
Maurocore, no problem, just use this,... ;]
http://www2.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php


That is a good idea, but letīs see what happens...
For now we should concentrate in rigging this little guy.
Did someone started something?
I do but because at the moment I have no much time I think it can be longer that I thought.

silviotoledo
05-11-2010, 10:07 AM
come on LW masters!


If we want lightwave to be a cool CA tool, we need this Hulk nicelly rigged on the next lightwave version content :).


Personally I can't imagine this rig working without muscle bones.

Weightmaps are also necessary. The character is a bit complex to work without it!

I did quick weightmaps, but need to work a litle more on it. Anyway I will try muscle bones soon.

I also can't imagine nice deformations without a cage deform that controls part of the character, specially for the chest and shoulders.
I will try metalink latter, and hope metalink and bones works joinned on the same character.

On an extremelly low poly cage it will be easy to set corrective endomorphs that would correct mesh problems.


The heavy geometry is nice for doing corrective morphs and simulate muscles and skin with endomorphs driven by bones!

No problem with heavy geometry I'm using an i7 processor :)!



Started my first rig test on it. Hope someone will download it and increase the rig a little.

I'm not yet worried with IK and members deformations, wich is easy to solve. I'm worried with Neck, Shoulder and Chest solutions and also with muscle simulations.

Frame 30 is the pose test. So just delete all itens on frame 30!


FILE ATTACHED

silviotoledo
05-11-2010, 12:18 PM
A Head rig in progress
Rotate Head and Maxila Control

silviotoledo
05-11-2010, 01:39 PM
Updated!

Some weightmap correction still needed on shoulders.

silviotoledo
05-11-2010, 02:03 PM
After a few tests, I conclude that the shoulder area deforms better on T POSE. Almost impossible to get nice shoulder deformations for all the sides without it.

silviotoledo
05-11-2010, 03:10 PM
And here the animation test :)

The rig is not so good, but it's usefull for some limited animations.

VIDEO ATTACHED

Hope other guys do a better rigging!

SplineGod
05-11-2010, 03:36 PM
we need to be able set morphs based on a set of conditions across
multiple items.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108706
haven't tried it, but maybe this can help.

You can do this now to some degree using cycler.
You can create an envelope that describes the behavior or a morph channel and control this behavior with the behavior of another channel.
Several morphs can be controlled at the same time this way.

silviotoledo
05-12-2010, 08:29 AM
I used Cyclyst to control the butterfly wings.

That's why I'm waiting the multiple reference to another scene files promissed to CORE. This would solve all the lightwave rig probles, once we can create several instances with pose corrections and control inside some slides.

silviotoledo
05-12-2010, 08:42 AM
That's a video with what I've done!

Still need doing a reverse foot and several other adjustments.

Hope I will get time for doing this soon.

I'd like to see other guys doing solutions to the shoulder deform.

silviotoledo
05-12-2010, 09:59 AM
Larry.

I'm doing a face rig test with kinda joystic control. I'm using a null position to control several morphs at the same time, and, maybe, some bones. I'm using Set Driven Key plugin. Also tired Cycler and Follower, but it seems none give me realtime feedback. How do I avoid the necessity of reloading the timeline?

silviotoledo
05-12-2010, 12:12 PM
no comments yet...

face rig video attached

silviotoledo
05-12-2010, 01:44 PM
a little more adjustments...

erikals
05-12-2010, 03:29 PM
looks good, though i can't help too much, no rigger (yet) ;]
(jaw forward needs some adjustment to deformation)

silviotoledo
05-13-2010, 01:40 PM
Yeah, lots os adjustments needed. I just did a rough to reach a solution.
I'm not a rigger too :), just combining elements and ideas.

Any ideas about getting realtime feedback?
I Know maestro does it nicelly, but it uses scripts and the plugin.
( I have a licence, but if I rig with it I would not be able to share 'cause it needs maestro interface )
Without realtime feedback for driven elements it makes no sense to rig massive elements into single controls.

Any possibility to do that with the LW tools without script?

silviotoledo
05-13-2010, 01:51 PM
The first jaw rig solution ( files attached to the botton of page 1 and video at
Hulk Rig Comp 2.rar in this page ) used only a bone to control mouth and is smoother.

The second solution uses some morph corrections, but I need realtime feedback from the driven nulls.

maybe I should use bones instead of null, so I would have realtime feedback from Joint morph or Jointmorph plus?

erikals
05-13-2010, 05:21 PM
not sure i understand, but maybe the solution is to mix the morph and cycler

MAUROCOR
05-17-2010, 06:52 AM
It is too bad that the Rigging Masters didnīt buy this idea to participate. I have sent private messages for some of them but maybe they are too buzy, who knows?
Anyway, thank you Silvio Toledo for your effort on this one. Youīve got interesting results althought it seams is really difficult to get the correct deformations in the high poly version.
I am still working on the low poly version and as soon as possible I will post my results here.

RebelHill
05-18-2010, 05:53 AM
No, no... The low poly is much better, and I will pop this guy out... just when I have a lil more time that is.

MAUROCOR
05-18-2010, 07:13 AM
No, no... The low poly is much better, and I will pop this guy out... just when I have a lil more time that is.

That is great, RebelHill! Looking forward to see what you get.:thumbsup:

erikals
05-18-2010, 08:19 AM
also, don't forget Mr. Rebel posted a rig of the Zulu character :]
might be of very good use :]

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103944

silviotoledo
05-21-2010, 12:17 PM
Take a look at a new test with face with several elements driven other elements.

will share files as soon as I clean and finish relationships.

The big problem is the shoulder area, but it will require a T Pose on the modeled guy! Maybe the same tech on the mouth will solve the shoulder.

Basically I will work with a very low poly model ( a cage ) that will deform the big mesh and a big amount of nulls to control shapes. Still have some ideas to try next month only. Lot of responsabilities now, can't back to this.

I'm sure a Rig Master will get this done soon.

I'm just having a little fun in spare time.

Silvio Toledo

MAUROCOR
05-23-2010, 09:36 PM
Hi, Silvio! This last one is great! Very well done! Could you share with us this rigging you did?
I havenīt finished mine because I am a little busy lately but as soon as possible I will post it here.
Congrats again!
:thumbsup:

silviotoledo
06-06-2010, 09:53 AM
Hi Mauro

I think I got a good deform solution for the shoulders, but it will require T pose.

May you update your model on a T Pose?
Using Zbrush itself and transpose will be better than remodeling on lightwave.
So I would update the rig on the Hulk.
Actually I've done tests on another character but I think I can transfer the rig with import option.

silviotoledo
06-06-2010, 10:10 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109683

I did a simple script to reduce the amount of work I do while rigging.

MAUROCOR
06-07-2010, 06:41 AM
Hi Mauro

I think I got a good deform solution for the shoulders, but it will require T pose.

May you update your model on a T Pose?
Using Zbrush itself and transpose will be better than remodeling on lightwave.
So I would update the rig on the Hulk.
Actually I've done tests on another character but I think I can transfer the rig with import option.

Hi, Silvio!

Great that you got a solution for the shoulders in the T pose but at this moment I canīt work on this once I have been so busy.
When I have some time I can do it or if someone could make the job would be great too.
;)

silviotoledo
06-08-2010, 10:56 PM
I did a lot of tests on another character and wil post here soon.

without T pose, the soulders will not be posed correctly if his arms goes up and front.

Pose model on T pose using bones with 0 sub-d and save transformed requires a lot of remodeling on the arm, shoulders and chest that would be better solved in zbrush.


If you do the job again in Z brush maybe it will be necessary to transfer weightmaps and morphs.

RebelHill
03-22-2011, 08:55 AM
Finally managed to get around to having a proper go at this.

Only took me an hour or so in the end.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117969

MaDDoX
03-23-2011, 08:35 AM
Nice job as usual RH, and great model Mauro ;)

Dang, wish I had time to make my take on an IKB+IK rig for this. I'm still trying to find time to take on that "Roid" animation challenge from Proton.. w00t!