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InfoCentral
05-06-2010, 09:58 AM
Now that Electric Rain's toon render engine, Swift 3D (http://www.erain.com/Products/LW/), has been officially dropped for Lightwave for lack of interest. What are people using to for Toon Rendering? Thanks...

Dexter2999
05-06-2010, 10:28 AM
The toon shader that comes with LW or BESM?

nickdigital
05-06-2010, 10:30 AM
We use unreal extreme. The line drawing is much cleaner and easier to control compared to LW's native object property edges.

JamesCurtis
05-06-2010, 10:33 AM
LW's Cel Shade shader, BESM [Big Eyes Small Mouth]. as far as vector stuff, I'm not sure if there is anything - but don't quote that as fact.

Oops!! Posted a few minutes late.

h2oStudios
05-06-2010, 02:40 PM
As already mentioned above, Super-Cel Shader, BESM, Nodes have also been opening up some NPR goodness (e.g. Suess-Style-Shading, among other "Cel-painted" looks), and of course the "painting with polygons" technique.


We use unreal extreme. The line drawing is much cleaner and easier to control compared to LW's native object property edges.

Really? How so? Gonna have to look into that. The last time I used UnReal was back in 7.5 days and it was, then, (imho) quite sh1tty compared to native LW edges. Has it improved that much? Care to give us an example?

wibly wobly
05-06-2010, 05:50 PM
+1 for unreal here. I haven't tried any of the newer node shading techniques but, I've found unreal to be a lot better then the super cell shader and BESM combined with the usual rendering edges. It's a little weird setting up initially but, I get much better results with it. I find it does fail if you want a thick outline on objects. The anti-aliasing seems a jagged when I've tried it. Unless there's something I've missed, I might either render at a pretty hi-rez and shrink, or just comp something.

nickdigital
05-06-2010, 08:30 PM
Really? How so? Gonna have to look into that. The last time I used UnReal was back in 7.5 days and it was, then, (imho) quite sh1tty compared to native LW edges. Has it improved that much? Care to give us an example?

We find it's easier to control the line drawing with Unreal. If you look at my avatar that was done with Unreal.

The robot in my avatar would draw with odd lines with just LW silhouette edges on. Also with LW edges you have to futz with the z depth value or the lines sometimes look chewed up. Unreal draws really cleanly consistently.

The drawback to Unreal is that it is more difficult to mix line colors. We address that by rendering passes which sadly is a pain in LW. But it's better to get clean lines then have to fight with LW's lines and then have to do a lot of paint clean up in comp.

The plug-in is still current as I believe it was updated as recently as end of 2009.

Worse comes to worse you at least have options to use LW edges or Unreal edges.

On a side note I have had shots where using LW edges causes bad alphas. With LW edges on sometimes there would be holes in the alpha where the line would draw. We don't have that problem with Unreal.

nickdigital
05-06-2010, 08:31 PM
I find it does fail if you want a thick outline on objects.

A way to get around this is to choke the matte in reverse in comp.

wibly wobly
05-07-2010, 05:50 AM
A way to get around this is to choke the matte in reverse in comp.

Actually, that's exactly what I've done when I've needed to get a thick outline. It's just too bad that it doesn't do it better itself. It seems fine if the line thickness is thin though.

I also have to say that I've always had trouble with LW native line drawing regarding inconsistent "pops". You really have to work the model to keep lines where you want them to be, otherwise they can just pop in and out all over the place while something is animated. I have had a much easier time dealing with this using unreal. I find the shading a hell of a lot easier to work with and better looking to.

I'd post a few shots where I've used it recently if I could but, I don't know if the client would be alright with it before the shows air.

nickdigital
05-07-2010, 10:57 AM
Actually, that's exactly what I've done when I've needed to get a thick outline. It's just too bad that it doesn't do it better itself. It seems fine if the line thickness is thin though.

I also have to say that I've always had trouble with LW native line drawing regarding inconsistent "pops". You really have to work the model to keep lines where you want them to be, otherwise they can just pop in and out all over the place while something is animated. I have had a much easier time dealing with this using unreal. I find the shading a hell of a lot easier to work with and better looking to.

I'd post a few shots where I've used it recently if I could but, I don't know if the client would be alright with it before the shows air.

How large is your brush size? I did this with a brush size of 25 and it looks pretty clean.