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katie-CGenie
04-16-2010, 11:46 AM
Hi all,

A huge thank you to all of you who contributed to the Big CG Survey!

We received over 3,500 responses from professionals, students and hobbyists from the global CG community, giving a fascinating insight into the industry.

We've been furiously compiling and analysing the results and have just published the first in what will be a series of articles based on what you said about the CG software you use.

In the coming weeks, we'll be interviewing the companies to find out their reaction to their customers' feedback, so keep an eye on the site.

I hope you find the first article interesting:
The Big CG Survey 2010: Initial Results (http://cgenie.com/articles/1158-cgenies-big-cg-survey-is-now-open-have-your-say.html)

Many thanks again for taking part.

Katie
CGenie.com (http://www.cgenie.com)

Matt
04-16-2010, 06:52 PM
Will be interesting to hear what NewTek make of those results.

realgray
04-16-2010, 07:02 PM
I'm really curious to see the first release of Core. I hope it's soon.

Nicolas Jordan
04-16-2010, 07:06 PM
Most of the results are pretty much what I would expect except for some of the stuff about Houdini I was a bit surprised at. With some of Newteks recent hires and efforts I think things will slowly turn around and gain momentum for them and Lightwave/Core over the next 2 years or so if things go as planned. Maya seems to be a bit of an aging beast that only has a foot hold because it is still a major part of the pipeline for many studios. I think Zbrush has less room for market growth that was they showed and Autodesk Softimage would probably has very little room for market growth as things sit now.

Even though Blender is being picked up and used by more professionals for real work it still kinda comes off as a hobbyists toy even though it can flex some serious muscle in many areas.

cresshead
04-17-2010, 01:55 AM
maya and max dominate the film and games markets but there's a lot of room for gains in all the other areas such as arch design, product design, tv shows, adverts, print, web...

so there's plenty of opportunities around for growth for other apps, Core can make a good stride forward but were going to have to wait for some time before we get a public released version.

Blender is looking good but really needs the other app keymapping presets to really start to gain any real usage momentum from users who also have other options.

modo is looking interesting though it's still missing a load of tools currently.

zbrush dominates it's area...but still lots of scope for mudbox and 3dcoat to try and elevate their app with some new technology this summer i hope.

pretty much every app is on the move...were seeing 3dsmax get it's rewrite and maya has had some work on it's code too...no one is standing still in development.

if houdini dropped their price i'm sure it would gain alot of ground...

hrgiger
04-17-2010, 05:00 AM
Not unlike what I expected. CORE wont' turn a lot of heads at the moment. All people have to go on is a botched reveal and some small indications of what it will hold for people.
Provided that Newtek does what it says it can with CORE, LW can start to gain some momentum for future surveys.

OnlineRender
04-17-2010, 05:46 AM
hmm anticipated growth for LW sucks , was core factored into this ?

Lightwolf
04-17-2010, 07:05 AM
hmm anticipated growth for LW sucks , was core factored into this ?
Ask the people that took part in the survey. I'd say yes.

Cheers,
Mike

Matt
04-17-2010, 08:35 AM
Ask the people that took part in the survey. I'd say yes.

Cheers,
Mike

I did, but not when the questions were about features, I kept that all LightWave.

Nicolas Jordan
04-17-2010, 10:37 AM
hmm anticipated growth for LW sucks , was core factored into this ?

I think the anticipated growth for most of the apps listed is probably going to end up being very inaccurate as time will likely prove over the next couple of years. Just for an example modo shows huge anticipated growth. I am guessing this is partly because it shows no definitive direction in it's development other than to become a complete 3d program at some point down the road. Since there are still many areas of the program to be developed and added it likely leaves modo with more future opportunity and therefore more anticipated growth.

aurora
04-17-2010, 11:45 AM
This comment is the thing that interest me the most as I fear its the most telling.


Lightwave - With the introduction of Core-i believe Newtek has managed to alienate their current lightwave user base. Development/bug fixes have slowed to a halt and forum activity has dropped off. As a lightwave professional of today, i find myself in a position where i need to either consider learning a new package or continue to wrestle with lightwave in its current state and hope that core will deliver what i need in a 3d application.

I'm pro-Core but after listening to upset users left and right long before it goes gold its going to take one hell of a campaign to regain faith among the fall away users and even more so to draw new ones. Not impossible just heavy work.

Matt
04-17-2010, 12:03 PM
its going to take one hell of a campaign to regain faith

Not just a decent campaign, but the app has to deliver the goods too.

aurora
04-17-2010, 12:10 PM
That would be the primary thrust, flanking positions and rear guard of the campaign in my book!

cresshead
04-17-2010, 12:14 PM
Not just a decent campaign, but the app has to deliver the goods too.
:agree:

Core has to offer a slew of new unique features to put it front and centre in lightwaver's decision making processes when looking at options to upgrade to core from lightwave 9.6 or looking at blender 2.5, modo 501 [by that time] and the offerings from, cinema4d, maya, softimage, 3dsmax, houdini.

Key to upgrading for many lightwave users is the lightwave-ness of core, making the transition to core smooth and not like a whole new learning curve otherwise blender could get it's foot firmly in the door.

OnlineRender
04-17-2010, 12:45 PM
I believe the figures represent an element of truth & I also believe/ know that Modo is the new Lightwave "5 years ago " , alot of people shifted to Modo and its being more and more commonly used ,this also includes Blender .

I think NT should print that chart out , stick it on there wall and say " IN 2 Years I want to see a complete forecast turn-around .

for all the wavers out there hoping and praying Core will bring them back into the limelight I would suggest another train of thought .

Alot of people think there going to jump straight from LW into Core without the need to pick up the manual , and sadly this is not the case , it's a whole new app "with that LW feel ,meh! . "

we live in the now and unfortunate the NOW requires a solution , it kills me to say this ,but if LW doesn't move fast ,its going to get pushed back even further , I'm glad too see phenomenal artists and technicians sticking with LW , images from users such as blah blah blah *didnít want to give anyone a big head * :D are superb and I'm glad there here , and with the new members of the LW team , I wish them all the best , but creating youtube channels and fancy html pages does not sell LW seats , it merely gains an interest and catters for existing audience .

I donít know why I've decided to go on the rant , maybe seeing the truth infront of me ,has raised my blood , but its time that LW gained back what is rightfully there's and kick some AD /\$$ .

ohh and give 3DC a couple of years ,it will DO THE WORKS .

fanboys bring IT !

hrgiger
04-17-2010, 01:51 PM
Alot of people think there going to jump straight from LW into Core without the need to pick up the manual , and sadly this is not the case , it's a whole new app "with that LW feel ,meh! . "

[/SIZE]

Well, just to add another train of thoght in here but I feel like if you could just jump straight into CORE from LW without picking up the manual.... Well, then what was the point of creating a whole new application anyway? New tools, new methods, unified application = probably going to require a little new learning on the users part. Sadly? No. Besides, we hardly have a good view of what CORE will actually be like once it's released. The systems that we currently take for granted in LW are being worked on currently for CORE.

OnlineRender
04-17-2010, 03:16 PM
Grrp mobile software MEANT 2 SAY TIGGER

OnlineRender
04-17-2010, 05:19 PM
Well, just to add another train of thoght in here but I feel like if you could just jump straight into CORE from LW without picking up the manual.... Well, then what was the point of creating a whole new application anyway? New tools, new methods, unified application = probably going to require a little new learning on the users part. Sadly? No. Besides, we hardly have a good view of what CORE will actually be like once it's released. The systems that we currently take for granted in LW are being worked on currently for CORE.

that's nice

Matt
04-18-2010, 03:54 AM
Well, just to add another train of thoght in here but I feel like if you could just jump straight into CORE from LW without picking up the manual.... Well, then what was the point of creating a whole new application anyway?

Just to add another train of thought, well, watch the reveal again, that IS one of the remits for CORE, unless NT have changed their mind since then.

Serling
04-18-2010, 12:03 PM
As someone who's tried Blender, I can't believe it gets as much "cred" as it does. I found the interface horrible, completely unintuitive and unfriendly. Even free software that seems incomprehensible to use isn't worth the time to get to know it.

As far as I can tell, LightWave's biggest drawback is the lack of marketing for it's 3D products. Even on the homepage here, Tricaster gets all the love while LightWave is consigned to a link that looks like a footnote.

I think one are where the marketing could improve is to break LightWave out into it's own web site complete with it's own gallery and testimonial page. I mean, if LightWave (especially with Core eventually coming out) is going to challenge for market share, you should be able to Google it and go straight to a site dedicated to it.

IMHO.

aidenvfx
04-18-2010, 12:07 PM
maya and max dominate the film and games markets but there's a lot of room for gains in all the other areas such as arch design, product design, tv shows, adverts, print, web...

so there's plenty of opportunities around for growth for other apps, Core can make a good stride forward but were going to have to wait for some time before we get a public released version.

Blender is looking good but really needs the other app keymapping presets to really start to gain any real usage momentum from users who also have other options.

modo is looking interesting though it's still missing a load of tools currently.

zbrush dominates it's area...but still lots of scope for mudbox and 3dcoat to try and elevate their app with some new technology this summer i hope.

pretty much every app is on the move...were seeing 3dsmax get it's rewrite and maya has had some work on it's code too...no one is standing still in development.

if houdini dropped their price i'm sure it would gain alot of ground...

They offer a free version and a version for $99.00 that has no water marks. There product is heavy in the particle, fluid simulations area which tends to increase the price all around. I could see a drop to bring it more into the Maya price point which has come down to 4K it looks like

Lightwolf
04-18-2010, 12:08 PM
They offer a free version and a version for $99.00 that has no water marks.
You still can't use it commercially though.

Cheers,
Mike

Titus
04-18-2010, 12:12 PM
As someone who's tried Blender, I can't believe it gets as much "cred" as it does. I found the interface horrible, completely unintuitive and unfriendly. Even free software that seems incomprehensible to use isn't worth the time to get to know it.

I'm a little tired about the interface argument. It really doesn't matter when the growth of Blender features is exponentially. LW is an old app and has no room to grow, that's why Core was needed.

cresshead
04-18-2010, 12:31 PM
You still can't use it commercially though.

Cheers,
Mike

yeh cheapest commercial version is $1999 and that has no particles at all.

cresshead
04-18-2010, 12:32 PM
As someone who's tried Blender, I can't believe it gets as much "cred" as it does. I found the interface horrible, completely unintuitive and unfriendly. Even free software that seems incomprehensible to use isn't worth the time to get to know it.

As far as I can tell, LightWave's biggest drawback is the lack of marketing for it's 3D products. Even on the homepage here, Tricaster gets all the love while LightWave is consigned to a link that looks like a footnote.

I think one are where the marketing could improve is to break LightWave out into it's own web site complete with it's own gallery and testimonial page. I mean, if LightWave (especially with Core eventually coming out) is going to challenge for market share, you should be able to Google it and go straight to a site dedicated to it.

IMHO.


as someone who's ALSO tried blender 2.5 [alpha 2] i don;t find it anymore 'alien' than say maya or houdini and for ZERO it's very hard to pass up giving it a serious go.

BigHache
04-18-2010, 12:38 PM
As a long time LW hobbyist that's only more recently begun to apply LW in commercial application, LW has been satisfying my needs and I'm not interested in moving. Partly because I've finally got a solid base for this app, the price is also appealing, and I don't agree with AD's license terms so that kills any of their products as options for me.

Now, at the same time, I'm also not currently a Core member nor am I convinced that I need to run out and get Core. This is just me. I'm not sure where anyone else is at. I'm the only person in my 3D workflow and always have been. If Core provides me with enough "need to have" features I'm sure I'll upgrade when the time comes.

I've also looked at Blender a few times, gone through most of the Lynda.com training vids for Maya 2008, and well, my brain is full with LW, PS, AI, ID, AE, FCP, DVDSP, plus still and video camera op. Not really interested in adding more.

SBowie
04-18-2010, 12:39 PM
I mean, if LightWave (especially with Core eventually coming out) is going to challenge for market share, you should be able to Google it and go straight to a site dedicated to it.The top-ranked Google site for "lightwave 3d" is this one:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/

You wind up on the same landing page if you go to www.lightwave3d.com. I don't really think you can expect LW to completely dominate the NewTek company site, apart from certain times when there is breaking news. At least, not for the foreseeable future. This is not to say LW can't or shouldn't have its own home.

Matt
04-18-2010, 12:40 PM
I'm a little tired about the interface argument. It really doesn't matter when the growth of Blender features is exponentially.

Yep, that's what Blender needs, lots and lots of features without paying much attention to address to workflow issues.

Matt
04-18-2010, 12:42 PM
I don't really think you can expect LW to completely dominate the NewTek company site

Makes sense when we all know that's where NT makes it money, LightWave doesn't even pay for itself from what I've been told.

Edit: Told as in by many other LightWavers over the years, not by any NewTek employees, just to make that clear!

SBowie
04-18-2010, 12:59 PM
Makes sense when we all know that's where NT makes it money, LightWave doesn't even pay for itself from what I've been told.Dunno, but given all the effort going into it now, and the natural ambivalence of the market to something unseen, it's probably true ... hasn't always been that way though, I don't think. Would that the glory days would return in full measure. :thumbsup:

hrgiger
04-18-2010, 01:03 PM
Just to add another train of thought, well, watch the reveal again, that IS one of the remits for CORE, unless NT have changed their mind since then.

Matt, my point is that you can't unify Lightwave, and make the changes that Newtek wants to make with it and expect it to not act nor look at least somewhat differently then current LW. There are several ways, in fact, that I hope are different. And I don't remember anything from the reveal that said that CORE would be identical to working in Lightwave, just that Jay reassured users that were afraid of too much change, that they would find a familiar face in CORE. I've gotten no indication from them that anything has changed in that since the reveal.

Matt
04-18-2010, 02:08 PM
Matt, my point is that you can't unify Lightwave, and make the changes that Newtek wants to make with it and expect it to not act nor look at least somewhat differently then current LW. There are several ways, in fact, that I hope are different. And I don't remember anything from the reveal that said that CORE would be identical to working in Lightwave, just that Jay reassured users that were afraid of too much change, that they would find a familiar face in CORE. I've gotten no indication from them that anything has changed in that since the reveal.

I'm fully aware of that, no one is or ever has asked for _identical_ to LightWave.

But a passing familiarity was promised, that's all I'm pointing out.

hrgiger
04-18-2010, 02:26 PM
But a passing familiarity was promised, that's all I'm pointing out.

I know. I just maybe think that many are using current CORE builds as a strong indicator of how it wil be once released when I'm thinking it's more of a vague one. As Jay has pointed out, until he's said a tool or feature was final, all bets are off.

aidenvfx
04-18-2010, 03:31 PM
You still can't use it commercially though.

Cheers,
Mike

Very true. At the same time I currently can learn Houdini for free on my own the same can not be said for pretty much every other 3D package out there. The market houdini seem to be after are big FX heavy production so spending 8K is not a big deal for them. I agree to get into the small shops they probably need to reduce the price. It will be interesting to see what they do especially now that a major fluid simulation system "Realflow" has massively cut their prices and RF5 will no longer be Core based but system based.

OnlineRender
04-18-2010, 03:47 PM
Choo Choo The Rant Train has arrived Choo Choo

Agreed with Matt on workflow issue(s) with Blender & the new GUI is always under construction but also take into consideration that it's open source and talented people can easily overcome this .
"say for example someone that can make an interface for CORE " :D

Which takes me onto my next point in case , I like the idea that NT are trying to move with the times , the general attitude with Tricaster & Lightwave is positive in my opinion . ffs they have Rob on there team "and many other gifted people " ,but have you seen this guys resume ! some people were moaning that he was on what us Brits would call chessy TV**no offence**
your damn right I would be hitting every media stream I could get my hands on , even SKY907 :D

When Core becomes open beta , then I'll see it .

you aren’t ever going to beat AD in the sales department ,end off !, their grasp is strong and the dark side is with them & I reckon the smart pep's @ NT have recognized this and maybe thought of another alternative .

Choo Choo end Rant Train has left the Station Choo Choo

+1 for Jin to come back ,this board needs some VA VA VOOM:devil: must be good over there on the Core forums , hot gossip ? "

Matt
04-18-2010, 04:15 PM
It appears I've been on the rant train a little lately, might have to get off at the next stop!

cresshead
04-18-2010, 04:16 PM
yeh, not seen Jin for ages posting here...has he transferred to the darkside [AD]?

Ernest
04-18-2010, 04:21 PM
I can't imagine how a LW user could possibly need a manual to use CORE since it is still text-based. If you want to deform your mesh, you read the top buttons and click on the one that says deform. If what you want is to twist it, you read the buttons from top to bottom until you see the one that says twist. That's how LW works. That's how CORE's interface looks. How can it be that different?


Yep, that's what Blender needs, lots and lots of features without paying much attention to address to workflow issues.

That's the huge problem with Blender. The devs are convinced that their workflow is perfect and that the users who complain about it are the ones that are broken.

Since they only listen to Blender users, you have to be willing to invest enough time and resources creating something on their current workflow before they will allow you to criticize it and present the reasons why you don't want to start using it for something serious.

Since they have no competition in their price range, they can afford to be like that. Studios and artists that have the choice of paying for software that treats their customers as customers are not always willing to play that way.

Therefore they lock themselves in a an island where the only voices are the ones who likes their workflow from the start, the ones who have not used other software, and the passing voices of the ones that are giving it a go but have not earned the right to be listened to. Because of that, I don't expect their workflow to ever change.


Makes sense when we all know that's where NT makes it money, LightWave doesn't even pay for itself from what I've been told.

It seems to be a cycle. I remember people complaining that LW was financing the VT development and NT kept assuring everyone that it was a temporary condition. That as soon as the new VT version was released, it would return the favor not only with additional resources for developing LW but also with a new development methodology. I guess we're on that side of the cycle now.


as someone who's ALSO tried blender 2.5 [alpha 2] i don;t find it anymore 'alien' than say maya or houdini and for ZERO it's very hard to pass up giving it a serious go.

But you also like using Max!

Matt
04-18-2010, 04:24 PM
yeh, not seen Jin for ages posting here...has he transferred to the darkside [AD]?

He was banned I believe.

Nicolas Jordan
04-18-2010, 04:25 PM
yeh, not seen Jin for ages posting here...has he transferred to the darkside [AD]?

I think he got banned a couple weeks back along with another guy if I remember correctly. Not sure if it was a permanent ban or just temporary.

Edit: Matt beat me.

BigHache
04-18-2010, 06:16 PM
He was banned I believe.

Awe that sucks. I always enjoyed his posts.

geo_n
04-18-2010, 06:36 PM
Sorry but the poll favoring blender is just not convincing.
Hundreds of cg work are done in maya,max,xsi,lw,c4d. Very few with blender. People point the bunny, yet I see maya short films from just anybody and everywhere.
If poser was in the poll I'm sure it would gain points as much as blender. A large user base does not mean the same amount of commercial cg work is being done.
I just don't see many studios adapting blender for paid work for clients. A few maybe that are struggling to pay for 3d soft.

Titus
04-18-2010, 06:58 PM
Sorry but the poll favoring blender is just not convincing.


Any user submmited poll is flawed. This poll only reflects the point of view of the people participating, you cannot extrapolate that to the whole CG universe. If you want a representative poll/survey then take the questions from randomly selected subjects. The Roncarelli Report on the Computer Animation Industry seems to be more believable on this matter.

Ok, you don't like Blender position in this poll, at least you can get useful information of people using the software.

Titus
04-18-2010, 07:15 PM
This is an old discussion about the 2006 Roncarelli Report:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69273

aidenvfx
04-18-2010, 07:25 PM
Sorry but the poll favoring blender is just not convincing.
Hundreds of cg work are done in maya,max,xsi,lw,c4d. Very few with blender. People point the bunny, yet I see maya short films from just anybody and everywhere.
If poser was in the poll I'm sure it would gain points as much as blender. A large user base does not mean the same amount of commercial cg work is being done.
I just don't see many studios adapting blender for paid work for clients. A few maybe that are struggling to pay for 3d soft.

I agree if 50% of the people who responded use Blender then it was not a great sample. I will say that I think some of the main points regarding LW are true to some extent. However from what I have seen of CORE it really looks like they are going after the TV market in a very big way.

zarti
06-17-2010, 02:11 PM
You still can't use it commercially though.
maybe you are aware of a small ' unique ' detail ; they give you the chance ( one time only ) to convert non-commercial projects to Commercial ones . ;)

.

yeh cheapest commercial version is $1999 and that has no particles at all.
talking about prices , that is pretty nice for me ; it is something between LW ( 995$ ) and MAX ( 34++$ ) .
i'm leaving out LW's plugins ; with their ' reason of existence ' and their ' interoperability ' .
... and many stressed to death arguments about AD policies ;)

talking about particles ; those and RBDs are spreading out like mushrooms after the rain , everywhere . even PowerPoint could include one :D


.

Yep, that's what Blender needs, lots and lots of features without paying much attention to address to workflow issues.
lately i spent few days with Blender and when i got back to Modeler i noticed that i almost forgot it's workflow :D

do you still remember the first days you opened LightWave ?? ;)





.cheers

Rayek
06-19-2010, 04:49 PM
Well, I can only speak for myself, and the survey seems to reflect my personal experience these last couple of years. I started out learning and using 3ds Max, moved to Cinema4D (v6, which was very affordable at that time, and coming from an amiga background), jumped ship to Lightwave 7 when C4D 9's upgrade pricing started to break through the roof, and started using Blender 2.48 for some of its interesting features (alongside LW9.6) two years ago.

And now I find myself using mainly Blender, 3d Coat, Terragen, Luxrender, Octane, some C4d v8.5 and a just a smidgen of Lightwave. I am using these for freelance jobs and for hobby work.

And about Blender's GUI: I feel it's a bit of a moot point. I had a much harder time getting used to LW's interface (especially the odd modeler<->layout two distinct apps approach), than any other 3d app. Blender was a doddle, and made absolute sense. (Yes, I did try/use most out there - starting with Sculpt3D ;-)


lately i spent few days with Blender and when i got back to Modeler i noticed that i almost forgot it's workflow
I agree - whenever I return to Lightwave, I have to think about the UI a lot; which is not the case whenever I have to use 3ds max, C4D, or other 3d apps I have used in the past. Don't know why that is - I noticed I can pick up virtually any other 3d app (even new ones) and start working with them. Two exceptions: LW and ZBrush.