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simonlion
03-04-2010, 09:39 PM
So what is it with this new Core, Is it out there or not yet ?
I heard none of the LW Tutorials Is going to work with Lw CORE.
Is That True ?
Simon

jin choung
03-04-2010, 10:46 PM
CORE is the next version - i.e. the future - of Lightwave.

technically, this isn't true anymore right?

the future of lightwave is "Lightwave" right? Core is now just relegated with helper monkey status? or the third head of the triune lightwave... 3 apps that are one and indivisible yet distinct.... ?

jin

jin choung
03-04-2010, 11:04 PM
I would agree though, the future of Lightwave IS Lightwave. One way or another. ;)

it is NOW.... but you WERE right. when they announced it and even just last week, the right answer would have been:

"the future of lightwave is CORE".

but evidently not now.

jin

CGI Addict
03-04-2010, 11:22 PM
Please NewTek, close this thread and prohibit any others that just continue pointless debate. Been there, done that.

jin choung
03-04-2010, 11:24 PM
Please NewTek, close this thread and prohibit any others that just continue pointless debate. Been there, done that.

touchy touchy.

jin

CGI Addict
03-04-2010, 11:28 PM
Nah, not really. It just seems that the same old stuff gets said over and over and over and over and over and ...

Everyone just go on a two month hiatus with regard to CORE and then let's come back and see how the guys at NT are doing? Cut them some slack just for two months and then go at again.

Deal?

OnlineRender
03-05-2010, 12:02 AM
Since this thread already went that slippery slope way .

a) simonlion where the hell you been ?
b) Jin' Easy Tiger ...
c)Cgaddict "you can't shut down every thread that involves Core" although valid point
d) Megladon it's not your position/call to instruct people what and what not people can read ,deal ?
e) Im outta here ...............................

simonlion
03-05-2010, 02:24 AM
Since this thread already went that slippery slope way .

a) simonlion where the hell you been ?
b) Jin' Easy Tiger ...
c)Cgaddict "you can't shut down every thread that involves Core" although valid point
d) Megladon it's not your position/call to instruct people what and what not people can read ,deal ?
e) Im outta here ...............................

I been busy shooting video, and doing lots of editing, Iam back to my favorite program Lightwave. I just had a simple question, I dont know why some Guys argue with each other.. I personally have Lots of respect for this Forum, Its here to help each other.
Thank you very much
simon

cresshead
03-05-2010, 04:39 AM
So what is it with this new Core, Is it out there or not yet ?
I heard none of the LW Tutorials Is going to work with Lw CORE.
Is That True ?
Simon

core is the next phase of development from newtek for 3d applications

'some' tutorials will work if they are lightwave 10 based

yes is he simple answer...of the 3 main apps Core is the new app and so works completly differently [it's a unified app] to modeler and layout in which case there will be NEW tutorials covering it, i've already made 20 or so videos using core over on the beta forum.

Soth
03-05-2010, 04:59 AM
technically, this isn't true anymore right?

the future of lightwave is "Lightwave" right? Core is now just relegated with helper monkey status? or the third head of the triune lightwave... 3 apps that are one and indivisible yet distinct.... ?

that was neither true or funny

Mate, seriously, you should try to reshape your unlimited sarcasm reserves and help shape of new LightWave, make your company buy CORE, and write few posts there. ;)

EDIT: Last CORE build made me a fanboy, so what?!?!

jin choung
03-05-2010, 12:29 PM
that was neither true or funny


go argue with chuck then.

to single out core OR lw legacy is to make an "artificial distinction". the product in its entirety is "Lightwave" and "Core" is just one part of an indivisible melange....

: )

jin

Mike_RB
03-05-2010, 12:35 PM
go argue with chuck then.

to single out core OR lw legacy is to make an "artificial distinction". the product in its entirety is "Lightwave" and "Core" is just one part of an indivisible melange....

: )

jin

Jin, just put a sock in it. :) You know Chuck is tip-toeing around a marketing issue and no matter what they call it or how much like a holy trinity it may seem that eventually the legacy code will fall back and all development hours will be pushed into core, eventually. It's this bumpy transition area where they've grooved the pavement and the lines have been scratched off that's a little confusing. But probably only for the initial rollout. Then they will slap the new road surface on and all will be clear again. Give them a break, they aren't going to cave to your constant jibba jabba. It's tiresome to read, for them... and for your loyal subjects.

Nicolas Jordan
03-05-2010, 12:41 PM
Well... at THIS point I don't know WHAT they will end up calling the final product - probably something like Lightwave CORE. But who knows? I think that even Newtek isn't sure what the final name will be.

I would agree though, the future of Lightwave IS Lightwave. One way or another. ;)

Maybe they will call it Lightwave Trinity or Tri-Wave when it's released. :D (just kidding of course)

speismonqui
03-05-2010, 12:44 PM
can we (non HC members) make a suggestion/petition? How about posting future videos or screenshots with a Lightwave theme? i mean, a light grey UI, short height buttons, icons disabled, etc.
I think it'll help a lot with misconceptions about what lightwave, core, hc, with core technology, etc, will be...
I feel, and i think i'm no the only one, that LW Core is just a whole different APP, i know it is, but i dont even recognize it as LW. Personally i'll love to see this "new version" with lightwave identity.

so... who's with me????

Matt
03-05-2010, 12:45 PM
Well, the latest build of CORE we just got had a massive update, and there is some nice stuff in there.

So there all you naysayers! :p

;)

Titus
03-05-2010, 01:11 PM
I think they'll end up calling the final END product Lightwave. It's just too good of a name and when it's revealed what it can/will actually do...

NO, please no!

hrgiger
03-05-2010, 01:20 PM
Well I have to agree with Titus here, but probably for a different reason. CORE is a new application. As much as the end user might be able to get it to look and act like Lighwave, it is not Lightwave. It's only Lightwave in the sense that it's taking its place.
And while there are certainly aspects of Lightwave we'd like to keep in CORE, it's still a new and different product and I think it should be treated as such. They can keep the Lightwave in the name (for example Lightwave CORE is just fine with me), it should never be called simply Lightwave 10 or 11 or whatever major release version we happen to be on.

simonlion
03-06-2010, 02:39 AM
Well, Is it possible to have Lightwave 9.6 and CORE, Installed together, so you can go back and forth form LW 9.6 To CORE.
Thanks
Simon

OnlineRender
03-06-2010, 02:45 AM
Well, Is it possible to have Lightwave 9.6 and CORE, Installed together, so you can go back and forth form LW 9.6 To CORE.
Thanks
Simon

yes ! atm CORE needs LW ....... the new build is meant to be very good !

simonlion
03-06-2010, 02:47 AM
Since this thread already went that slippery slope way .

a) simonlion where the hell you been ?
b) Jin' Easy Tiger ...
c)Cgaddict "you can't shut down every thread that involves Core" although valid point
d) Megladon it's not your position/call to instruct people what and what not people can read ,deal ?
e) Im outta here ...............................

Dear onlineRender:
I looked at you Tube: Wall Flip With Twist. It looks very nice.
Did you make that ?
Simon

OnlineRender
03-06-2010, 04:07 AM
Dear onlineRender:
I looked at you Tube: Wall Flip With Twist. It looks very nice.
Did you make that ?
Simon

Yes ! one of many stupid ideas LOL

Matt
03-06-2010, 08:17 AM
Well.... unfortunately these "naysayers" won't believe anything until THEY actually see CORE in action. I don't blame them. Obviously it's up to Newtek to decide when to show this. Hopefully it will be soon. At least those of us who are in Hardcore know pretty much we are on the right path! :thumbsup:

There is still a long way to go yet though.

Soth
03-06-2010, 09:19 AM
You sound like you do not agree what he said, more like you in opposition. I do not think anyone would say there is long jurney ahead. But it does not mean that I (we) m/are not optimistic (again). ;)

They are skilled people, they have a plan and they listen to experts (you as well) so...

Titus
03-06-2010, 09:24 AM
they have a plan and they...

Like the cylons?

erikals
03-06-2010, 10:33 AM
like the logo says "Lightwave Core".... and i kind of like that... http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

well, ahem, used to use at least... [kiss]

http://features.cgsociety.org/stories/2009_02/upload/4908_core_t.jpg

animotion
03-07-2010, 11:23 AM
Core has a lot of promise as long as they don't throw out the crown jewels that LW possesses. There are many of them.

cyatic
03-07-2010, 07:57 PM
Honestly, I don't know why Newtek didn't just go with the same type of beta cycle like they did with LW9. I know they're trying to keep things secret, but you have to believe there are probably a few employees from competing companies that have to have Hardcore Memberships. I'm pretty sure they're following the developement and taking notes. I think all this new way of doing things did was make LW users choose sides, cause a rift between the nobles and peasents. I think if everyone using LW9 were to be allowed to use the beta like last time it would multiply the number of suggestions and ideas. I mean look at LW 9. I think it's one of, if not the best version of Lightwave. I think it's because we were all allowed to participate in the beta process. Opening the beta would settle the masses down a bit. Of course there would still be the people which complain constantly, but overall Lightwave would benefit. Really, competing companies are paying a small amount of money to peek at Lightwave Core, while a good amount of users which actually care can't help or view the new technology without paying for the right to become a beta tester for a program which won't be in it's final version when it's released. Those are just my thoughts on this matter. I still support Newtek and hope they do great.

Stooch
03-07-2010, 08:31 PM
lol core is in alpha right now, an alpha you have to pay for the privilege of testing for newtek.
unless you buy a new copy of lw9, which is obsolete and is slated to be replaced by core.
Do you feel lucky? Punk?


sounds like a winning marketing strategy. i wonder who came up with it.

hrgiger
03-07-2010, 08:53 PM
lol core is in alpha right now, an alpha you have to pay for the privilege of testing for newtek.
unless you buy a new copy of lw9, which is obsolete and is slated to be replaced by core.
Do you feel lucky? Punk?




No. You're buying the software early, not paying to beta test. Paying to test CORE impies that you get to test out the software, but not get the final version which is not the case. It's really not any different then the LW9 open beta where you had to buy the software before you were able to download betas. For CORE, we get a discount and they get beta testers. Mutually beneficial.

robertoortiz
03-07-2010, 08:59 PM
And dont forget that you get the software at a discount.

And for those who wish to drop out of the program, and frankly some have, they can get a full refund.
We get regular builds, and we get to comment on the direction we would like the program to take.
I really don't see the down side of the process.

JonW
03-07-2010, 09:44 PM
I will upgrade to Lightwave 10 when its ready.

robertoortiz
03-07-2010, 09:50 PM
...and that is understandable

Titus
03-08-2010, 02:44 PM
We get regular builds, and we get to comment on the direction we would like the program to take.
I really don't see the down side of the process.

For some reason the Mobile Homer comes to mind :D.

Soth
03-08-2010, 04:28 PM
lol core is in alpha right now, an alpha you have to pay for the privilege of testing for newtek.
We had to pay sh1tloads of money to test CORE but on other got LightWave HC free as a part of the deal.

erikals
03-08-2010, 06:06 PM
"sh1tloads of money" ?

-not really.
if that's sh1tloads of money you might wanna reconsider this career.

Soth
03-08-2010, 06:24 PM
That was sarcasm, guys... please. ;)

I am sick of listening over and over again that I have payed for privilege of using beta/alpha/null... we bought CORE, we will get CORE, what is wrong with people here, NT charged us now, but how much money you will get if you put $395 into bank account for (even) 2 years? Even if we would not get LightWave HC and vote what (and how) tools will get in new LightWave...

And it does make sense, NT want ppl with commitment on the HC forums not those always unhappy ones.

So, again, it is my money, it is not your f*ckin business what I did with it! If I would put all six 50 notes in blender and made milkshake with it, I am moron, just leave it!

OK, and I am still trying to make thru almost 20 pages A4 of last build changelist, so sorry, I am off, busy using CORE...

erikals
03-08-2010, 07:02 PM
hah! well, you had me!... : D

it's a small-small tad better now, ppl don't nag too much about it...
but just wait, when Core is released it will be the same thing aaall over again...

...from the same users of course.

cyatic
03-08-2010, 11:32 PM
Looks like the people which bought all those Toyota's were doing the same thing we did, buying a product which wasn't ready to go. I guess they also paid for the chance to shape the way Toyota builds a car. Is this the new business model of the future? I bought in and requested a refund later. I'll just wait until there is just Lightwave Core, or whatever they are going to call it. LW 9.6 is still working good!

Cageman
03-09-2010, 12:20 AM
I bought in and requested a refund later.

I'm quoting this because I think it is good for everyone to know that you can do that. NT has declared that HC is not for everyone, and people have jumped in and discovered that they were one of those refered to, so they jump back out and get their money back.

If CORE and HC was/is a cash-grab for NT, their policy stongly suggest otherwise.

:)

jin choung
03-09-2010, 12:37 AM
If CORE and HC was/is a cash-grab for NT, their policy stongly suggest otherwise.

:)

argh.... come on. we're all of us more sophisticated consumers than that.

that's kinda like saying:

"because we have a policy of mail-in rebates, you can clearly see that we really really want to save you money!"

or

"we are offering you this purchase to try out at home for three months and if you are not absolutely 100% satisfied, send it back and we'll give you your money back! and so you can see that the thing that we really care about is your satisfaction."

to articulate the ploy clearly:

THE BET IS THAT WE'RE ALL LAZY Fs. THE BET IS THAT HAVING GIVEN MONEY OVER, WE WON'T TAKE THE TIME OR EFFORT TO MAKE GOOD ON SAVINGS, REFUND, ETC.

to articulate the results clearly:

IT'S A GOOD BET.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

come on, i mean unless they're being funded by bill gates or something, it's LIKELY a cash grab. and there's not anything necessarily wrong with that. it rubbed me the wrong way cuz i'd rather have "leveling with the fans" rather than "selling of snake oil" but that's just the manner in how it was handled.

nothing wrong with grabbing cash.

and as for the endeavor of trying to persuade the other side that it is or it isn't, we can go round and round on this but we're never gonna convince you and you're never gonna convince us.

cuz you might be able to see the handing out of refunds as a genuinely good and positive thing. but does it surprise you that with my eyes, i see it in a totally different, forehead smacking light?

realistically speaking - ain't that right?

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 12:49 AM
as for TOYOTA -

"moving forward. even when you don't want to"

and

http://www.despair.com/toyota.html

BUT

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 12:56 AM
NewTek, Evolving, even when you don't want to.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 01:05 AM
NewTek, Evolving, even when you don't want to.

indeed.

personally i feel that evolution and change, even radical, is good and necessary for lw and has been for a long time. i've always pushed for the total teardown.

i've never been among those who had a problem with this kind of change.

and i see that there are indeed two camps vying for supremacy (i'm pro-lw-evolution but i don't take part in those discussions... pointless....) and i think that like with obama (of all things), it will encounter multiple conflicting interests and in seeking a middle road, end up pis$ing off everyone.... but that is their minefield to navigate.

se la vie. se la lw.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 01:17 AM
some of us aren't.

i don't remember calling anyone in specific a fanboy.

i do frequently state though that the community does seem to be split into fanboys and gadflies and "gadfly" is my attempt at magnanimity - to assign my own group an equally stinging pejorative. we will also accept naysayer, nitpicker, partypooper and a$shole.

jin

SBowie
03-09-2010, 07:29 AM
come on, i mean unless they're being funded by bill gates or something, it's LIKELY a cash grab. (snip)

realistically speaking - ain't that right?Nope, it's not. The simple truth appears to be that NewTek has prospered all through the recession, continues to do so, and opted some time back to re-cycle some of that prosperity into an investment in 3D.

Your so-called 'cash grab' wouldn't have funded more than a couple of months of that effort, much less the hiring binge that has been going on for a year now (and which continues as I type this). As I've said repeatedly, all available evidence points to it largely being a way to screen participants, putting a perfectly reasonable monetary threshold in place (while rewarding those who chose to participate) to weed out those who weren't well suited in one way or another, and maybe also to serve as a little test of the waters to see what the interest levels were. I've seen nothing to sway me in this view, nor any evidence whatsoever to support the 'cash-grab' claim.

jasonwestmas
03-09-2010, 07:43 AM
Well, the latest build of CORE we just got had a massive update, and there is some nice stuff in there.

So there all you naysayers! :p

;)

Yes, it's grand how infantile this last release has made previous releases appear. Makes me wonder how grand the next couple of releases will be.

Soth
03-09-2010, 07:49 AM
As I've said repeatedly, all available evidence points to it largely being a way to screen participants, putting a perfectly reasonable monetary threshold in place (while rewarding those who chose to participate) to weed out those who weren't well suited in one way or another, and maybe also to serve as a little test of the waters to see what the interest levels were. I've seen nothing to sway me in this view, nor any evidence whatsoever to support the 'cash-grab' claim.

Agree 100%, how many CORE seats NewTek sold? 2000? That is not enough cash to pay salaries of 10+ highly skilled people for 2 years.

jasonwestmas
03-09-2010, 07:52 AM
lol core is in alpha right now, an alpha you have to pay for the privilege of testing for newtek.
unless you buy a new copy of lw9, which is obsolete and is slated to be replaced by core.
Do you feel lucky? Punk?


sounds like a winning marketing strategy. i wonder who came up with it.

You talk as if we have no other software to use. It's not that dicey to give core a try. This is software after all, there is always room for failure and success no matter the stages in reality. Ultimately I'm sure there will be things I like or don't like in any new piece of software.

I'm really not sure where all these strange comments come from. Just to get a rise out of people I guess. I personally don't test software much but use it when I can while taking an interest in what Newtek is doing right now. What's the matter with that perspective.

jasonwestmas
03-09-2010, 08:06 AM
argh.... come on. we're all of us more sophisticated consumers than that.

that's kinda like saying:

"because we have a policy of mail-in rebates, you can clearly see that we really really want to save you money!"

or

"we are offering you this purchase to try out at home for three months and if you are not absolutely 100% satisfied, send it back and we'll give you your money back! and so you can see that the thing that we really care about is your satisfaction."

to articulate the ploy clearly:

THE BET IS THAT WE'RE ALL LAZY Fs. THE BET IS THAT HAVING GIVEN MONEY OVER, WE WON'T TAKE THE TIME OR EFFORT TO MAKE GOOD ON SAVINGS, REFUND, ETC.

to articulate the results clearly:

IT'S A GOOD BET.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

come on, i mean unless they're being funded by bill gates or something, it's LIKELY a cash grab. and there's not anything necessarily wrong with that. it rubbed me the wrong way cuz i'd rather have "leveling with the fans" rather than "selling of snake oil" but that's just the manner in how it was handled.

nothing wrong with grabbing cash.

and as for the endeavor of trying to persuade the other side that it is or it isn't, we can go round and round on this but we're never gonna convince you and you're never gonna convince us.

cuz you might be able to see the handing out of refunds as a genuinely good and positive thing. but does it surprise you that with my eyes, i see it in a totally different, forehead smacking light?

realistically speaking - ain't that right?

jin

Damn Jin, you really know how to read into things. You a mind reader? It seems to you that 75% of buying into something requires some social profiling. This is just totally unnecessary. Why do you even care if what you say is true, is this an elaborate way to convince people that newtek's marketing strategies are somewhat lame? We already knew that many years ago.

banjaxedmdt
03-09-2010, 08:06 AM
I think the term people are looking for here is "Pre-order". As far as I'm concerned, I pre-ordered a copy of Lightwave Core, I just happen to get the extra advantage of offering my input during the development. In fact I didn't even pay for my pre-order, it came free with my upgrade to LW9.6 (which I would have bought anyway, Core just sped up the decision). I suspect I'm not the only Core member that got it that way either. So NT have actually made less money from me than they would have done.

jasonwestmas
03-09-2010, 08:08 AM
I think the term people are looking for here is "Pre-order". As far as I'm concerned, I pre-ordered a copy of Lightwave Core, I just happen to get the extra advantage of offering my input during the development. In fact I didn't even pay for my pre-order, it came free with my upgrade to LW9.6 (which I would have bought anyway, Core just sped up the decision). I suspect I'm not the only Core member that got it that way either. So NT have actually made less money from me than they would have done.

Yes, I paid to pre-order and perhaps get familiar with what Newtek is doing. I like their work in most cases and will support them when I can, period.

I pre-ordered LW 9.0 too and I don't regret it.

robertoortiz
03-09-2010, 08:33 AM
Yes, I paid to pre-order and perhaps get familiar with what Newtek is doing. I like their work in most cases and will support them when I can, period.

I pre-ordered LW 9.0 too and I don't regret it.


Same here.

Hell we are in the market now for more licenses.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 01:02 PM
Damn Jin, you really know how to read into things. You a mind reader?

is cageman?

i'm just stating the truly OBVIOUS counter interpretation. if we're going to be playing the game of interpreting or spinning actions, this is just as valid.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 01:07 PM
to weed out those who weren't well suited

hahahahahahahaha....

what an excellent criteria for doing that: $395....

hahahahahahahaha....

that just really made me laugh.

jin

Weetos
03-09-2010, 01:27 PM
Well I'm still out of the HC Club (or whatever it's called) - I'm curious about Core though, and I'm reading every piece of information I can find about its progress.

It's ok that HC members have the privilege to test the software and participate in the dev - no problem about that, but what I don't get is the "shhhh don't tell non-HC people anything about Core" policy ???

The tiny amount of info that NT made public almost made me want to subscribe, and I guess I'm not the only one, so why being so silent about what's being cooked in there ? If there was at least some video demos and posts about Core's current status on a regular basis (I mean more than twice a year), I 'm sure I would have subscribed a long time ago.

Don't get it, really. Is it because everything has been already shown publicly ? so let's summarize : millions of polygons, modern and customizable UI, modern OGL implementation, new physics engine, Python and language abstraction scripting via LUA, VPR and that's it ? Nothing left to show ? I seriously doubt it.

While I'm at it, I was wondering if Core needs LWHC (win or mac) at the mo, what about the GNU/Linux build ? has it been canceled or is it on par with the win/mac builds ?

Come on NT, show us more and you'll get the cash from us lurkers !

SBowie
03-09-2010, 01:30 PM
what an excellent criteria for doing that: $395....Worked, too. :)
(BTW, note I am not implying there are not numerous perfectly good reasons for staying out, just as there are reasons for deciding to join HC - it's a self-determining filter, as it should be).

Sekhar
03-09-2010, 01:40 PM
Worked, too. :)

That was just mean. :D

Kuzey
03-09-2010, 01:43 PM
It's ok that HC members have the privilege to test the software and participate in the dev - no problem about that, but what I don't get is the "shhhh don't tell non-HC people anything about Core" policy ???



I think it's to do with wiggle room...if they say they are going to add something but it doesn't pan out...no one but the HC members know about it :D

March newsletter is coming up...we'll see if they'll post another video or Core goes totally missing in action this month.

BTW...I'm guessing the new feature in Core is FiberFX...am I right guys :D

Kuzey

erikals
03-09-2010, 01:56 PM
hahahahahahahaha....

what an excellent criteria for doing that: $395....

hahahahahahahaha....

that just really made me laugh.

jin

hehe, i'm glad you're having a laugh Jin, but you're way off here http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/wink.gif

Kuzey
03-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Worked, too. :)
(BTW, note I am not implying there are not numerous perfectly good reasons for staying out, just as there are reasons for deciding to join HC - it's a self-determining filter, as it should be).

Now that you brought it up :hey:

True...I was going to join, but for some reason the offer ended mid week instead of a Friday.

Turned out to be a good thing...I'm interested in Core and nothing but Core. So, lets say Core4 will be a full app....that is no LWHC for those who might bring it up. That is $395 x4 =$1,580 just to get to a full standalone app....that doesn't sound like an upgrade price to me.

Kuzey

Weetos
03-09-2010, 02:04 PM
That is $395 x4 =$1,580 just to get to a full standalone app....that doesn't sound like an upgrade price to me.

To me neither !

erikals
03-09-2010, 02:06 PM
BTW...I'm guessing the new feature in Core is FiberFX...am I right guys :D
Kuzey

no, it's a facerobot a-like feature, that tracks movements from realtime video and auto-creates morphs for you on the fly. tweaking is not necessary, as the result looks photo realistic.
it will make James Cameron cry...


well,... ok, i twisted the truth here.
...

Kuzey
03-09-2010, 02:09 PM
it will make James Cameron cry...



Haha....I would so love to see that :thumbsup:

Kuzey

jin choung
03-09-2010, 02:15 PM
But that's just it... it IS an interpretation. YOUR interpretation - that may or may not be correct. The trouble that most people have with this is... WHY continuously harp on the negative?

because as i said, it is an OBVIOUS, "jumps right to mind" counter interpretation of cageman's INTERPRETATION.

as i said, if you guys want to play the INTERPRETATION game, i am right there.

if you DON'T, then don't put out POSITIVE INTERPRETATIONS either. and just let the facts speak for themselves and be up for everyone's individual interpretation.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 02:17 PM
hehe, i'm glad you're having a laugh Jin, but you're way off here http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/wink.gif

way off on $395 being a "really excellent criteria"?

i think not.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 02:19 PM
Worked, too.

not what i hear.

if it was an attempt to get nothing but fanboys, it came close but there seems to be quite a bit of rancor and chaos without lil ol me. : )

as i said, $395 as the sole SOLE sole criteria for membership?

pfffft. and hahahahahahaha.... but you go on and keep pitchin' that snake oil.... : )

that is one "collaboration" i am glad not to be wasting my time on. : )

jin

TeZzy
03-09-2010, 02:23 PM
autodesk is moving.

erikals
03-09-2010, 02:25 PM
Core VPR - $395
FPrime 3 - $399

...now Core has more than VPR.

VonBon
03-09-2010, 02:26 PM
wow, yall still on this topic.

if yall got all this time to keep talking about the same old thing, well

i could use some help in a few things since yall like wasting time
beating this dead topic beyond death.

:screwy:

erikals
03-09-2010, 02:32 PM
i could use some help in a few things since yall like wasting time
beating this dead topic beyond death.

no.
Jin wants dust, so we phanboiz must stand strong. fight for the right.

SBowie
03-09-2010, 02:34 PM
That is $395 x4 =$1,580 just to get to a full standalone app....that doesn't sound like an upgrade price to me.I have a feeling that some will revisit that thinking when the 1.0 release happens, but am the last person to quibble with anyone for making either decision.

erikals
03-09-2010, 02:37 PM
wait, i forgot this.... (just to scare Jin away, let's see if it works...)

http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/I_Love_NewTek.gif

SBowie
03-09-2010, 02:39 PM
if it was an attempt to get nothing but fanboys, it came close but there seems to be quite a bit of rancor and chaos without lil ol me.This news just in folks - "According to one source, almost all HC members are fanboys." (Weasel words to follow in our next update to make sure selected individuals are don't feel slighted.) ;)


as i said, $395 as the sole SOLE sole criteria for membership?Yep - nothing tests the real level of someone's interest in something like asking them to pony up. It's called putting your money where your mouth is.

Soth
03-09-2010, 02:41 PM
So, lets say Core4 will be a full app....that is no LWHC for those who might bring it up. That is $395 x4 =$1,580 just to get to a full standalone app....that doesn't sound like an upgrade price to me.

Spot on!

Before v4 CORE will be completely useless and LightWave HC will not receive any updates. They probably will remove new stuff that is already there.

Some of us will just send $395 every year to NewTek, we like them and they are poor orphans with disabilities.

robertoortiz
03-09-2010, 02:41 PM
This news just in folks - "According to one source, almost all HC members are fanboys." (Weasel words to follow in our next update to make sure selected individuals are don't feel slighted.) ;)


That is news to me too.
What a a laugh.
You guys should see some of the arguments we had in the past in the HC sections.

Kuzey
03-09-2010, 02:45 PM
I have a feeling that some will revisit that thinking when the 1.0 release happens, but am the last person to quibble with anyone for making either decision.

In what way....are you saying Newtek is going for a full app at the release of Core1 or a near full app??

Or....do you mean there won't be an upgrade price from 9.6 to Core1/2/3 or 4 after the release of Core1 ??

Kuzey

hrgiger
03-09-2010, 02:46 PM
Now that you brought it up :hey:

True...I was going to join, but for some reason the offer ended mid week instead of a Friday.

Turned out to be a good thing...I'm interested in Core and nothing but Core. So, lets say Core4 will be a full app....that is no LWHC for those who might bring it up. That is $395 x4 =$1,580 just to get to a full standalone app....that doesn't sound like an upgrade price to me.

Kuzey

Well, I look at it this way. CORE 1 has modeling, UV tools, lighting, shading, simulation, rendering and interactive preview rendering, animation, compositing, scripting, open SDK, modifier stack, complete nodal access and probably a few other things I'm leaving out. Mind you, some of these are limited in scope. For instance, animation will not yet include skinning and rendering probably won't be a complete solution and all in all, these are initial implementations. But do you really think it's going to be 4 versions before it's considered stand alone? Technically, CORE 1 covers all the basics with varying degress of completeness. However, realistically, most will probably be using CORE 1 for specific tasks rather then a complete app.
A few months back, Chuck was asked how many versions until CORE is complete. His answer was at least two. So my guess would be CORE 2 or 3. I'm guessing that with the deadline being pushed back, a few other things that weren't announced will slip their way in there for version 1. We just got one of those in the last beta build actually.

SBowie
03-09-2010, 02:46 PM
You guys should see some of the arguments we had in the past in the HC sections.You're just saying that because you're a fanboy. You know full well that offering a daily child sacrifice at the base of the Core logo and signing over your mortgage is mandatory (shhhh). ;)

SBowie
03-09-2010, 02:49 PM
IMO, the VAST majority of rancor is from people like you who don't really have any idea how CORE is doing at this very moment.If you were to replace the word "rancor" above with "passion" in the sentence above, I'd have to disagree with you.

As you know, the tone of discussions inside HC doesn't depart all that much from what you'd find here (apart from having more detail to chew on). Those who think all of those who want Core to feel and work like 'LW on amphetamines' are all outside HC are quite mistaken.

dnch
03-09-2010, 02:51 PM
well..
i needed to buy new package for our studio, and 9.6 offered best price for what you get, it paid back for itself very soon (as only modo would if i was so quick with it as with lw), and CORE and HC are just very nice bonus for me

SBowie
03-09-2010, 02:52 PM
In what way....are you saying Newtek is going for a full app at the release of Core1 or a near full app??

Or....do you mean there won't be an upgrade price from 9.6 to Core1/2/3 or 4 after the release of Core1 ??

KuzeyNeither, sorry. To try to be clearer, I mean I think that some who are currently holding back will, on reflection, revisit the question of whether the entry price is well justified or not when they see 1.0 and compare it to similarly priced software, plugins, etc.

Kuzey
03-09-2010, 02:59 PM
Well, I look at it this way. CORE 1 has modeling, UV tools, lighting, shading, simulation, rendering and interactive preview rendering, animation, compositing, scripting, open SDK, modifier stack, complete nodal access and probably a few other things I'm leaving out. Mind you, some of these are limited in scope. For instance, animation will not yet include skinning and rendering probably won't be a complete solution and all in all, these are initial implementations. But do you really think it's going to be 4 versions before it's considered stand alone? Technically, CORE 1 covers all the basics with varying degress of completeness. However, realistically, most will probably be using CORE 1 for specific tasks rather then a complete app.
A few months back, Chuck was asked how many versions until CORE is complete. His answer was at least two. So my guess would be CORE 2 or 3. I'm guessing that with the deadline being pushed back, a few other things that weren't announced will slip their way in there for version 1. We just got one of those in the last beta build actually.

All those sound great...I don't even mind it not being fully featured...I would have been happy with Core1 being a full modeler. I just think working on LWHC means less work on Core and the development will be slower.

Core4 was just a guess, I was going for 3...but threw an extra version in for safe measure :hey:

But I do hope it's sooner.

Kuzey

Kuzey
03-09-2010, 03:02 PM
Neither, sorry. To try to be clearer, I mean I think that some who are currently holding back will, on reflection, revisit the question of whether the entry price is well justified or not when they see 1.0 and compare it to similarly priced software, plugins, etc.

Ahh....right, that should have been my third guess :D

I do hope Core1 is as sexy as they can make it and then some...hehe.

Kuzey

Soth
03-09-2010, 03:08 PM
I do hope Core1 is as sexy as they can make it and then some...hehe.

I bet it will, last build kicks a55. ;)

SBowie
03-09-2010, 03:15 PM
I always worry about hyperbole. I would say it kicks somewhere around the back of the knee at the moment, but is showing signs of 'movin' on up'. :)

erikals
03-09-2010, 03:30 PM
i actually just have one big worry about Core, and that is DPont's plugins not being ported.

Soth
03-09-2010, 03:41 PM
i actually just have one big worry about Core, and that is DPont's plugins not being ported.

How about emailing author and asking him?

erikals
03-09-2010, 04:27 PM
How about emailing author and asking him?

no, don't think there's a point to it just yet.
i'll wait 'till Core is released with the SDK...

Tartiflette
03-09-2010, 04:46 PM
i actually just have one big worry about Core, and that is DPont's plugins not being ported.
Contrarily to you, i would be quite optimistic, precisely because of what he has been able to achieve with the somewhat limited SDK LightWave has had until then. ;)

Given the fact he is still around and updating constantly his plug-ins, i think that after a short amount of time we will see (almost) all his useful plug-ins ported and even enhanced for Core ! :thumbsup:


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

jin choung
03-09-2010, 04:50 PM
Yep - nothing tests the real level of someone's interest in something like asking them to pony up. It's called putting your money where your mouth is.

gee, I have a few religious cults you might be interested in too then. also a few pyramid schemes just itching for your money. And lots of pay to play agents who are looking for committed, dedicated people who are willing to prove their mettle with their moolah just like you!

Jin

Soth
03-09-2010, 05:39 PM
gee, I have a few religious cults you might be interested in too then. also a few pyramid schemes just itching for your money. And lots of pay to play agents who are looking for committed, dedicated people who are willing to prove their mettle with their moolah just like you!

Genius! My eyes opened! They are just like like him, exactly!

SBowie, you are nothing more than blood thirsty scammer! Just do us all a favor and ban yourself!
:lol:

cyatic
03-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Yes, I paid to pre-order and perhaps get familiar with what Newtek is doing. I like their work in most cases and will support them when I can, period.

I pre-ordered LW 9.0 too and I don't regret it.

Yes, I pre-ordered 9.0 as well, and when it was released I got LW 9.0. I didn't get LW 8 HC which supported an WIP LW 9.0. Like I said, I tried HC Membership and found it just wasn't for me. I'd rather wait until LW Core is completely done, and a "unified/complete" piece of software. I was issued a refund which showed me Newtek is not just in it for the cash. Maybe they got to excited with their new product and showed it to the masses a tad early. Still support Newtek and can't wait for the final version of Core!!

SBowie
03-09-2010, 05:51 PM
gee, I have a few religious cults you might be interested in too then.Funny, actually - I was thinking how comparable your insistence on the 'cash grab' seems to be to 'blind faith', since there's never been a shred of evidence offered in support, whereas I can easily do the math and substantiate my point (and have offered other anecdotal support, as well).

(This completely unsubstantiated faith rather surprised me, coming from you). :)

cyatic
03-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Neither, sorry. To try to be clearer, I mean I think that some who are currently holding back will, on reflection, revisit the question of whether the entry price is well justified or not when they see 1.0 and compare it to similarly priced software, plugins, etc.

If Newtek actually said and showed more then more people might be convinced. Also, I'm sure Newtek's competitors shelled out the $395 to get intel on Core. If the competition knows, and HC members know, why keep the "normal" LW users in the dark?

cyatic
03-09-2010, 06:21 PM
All those sound great...I don't even mind it not being fully featured...I would have been happy with Core1 being a full modeler. I just think working on LWHC means less work on Core and the development will be slower.

Kuzey

I agree. Concentrate on Core. I'm sure the masses would be ok with holding on to LW 9.6. It's been almost 4 years since 9.0, one more year of developement on Core wouldn't hurt. It seems LW HC is a way of throwing us something to hold us over until Core is final. I say forget LW HC and just work on CORE!:screwy:

hrgiger
03-09-2010, 06:22 PM
If Newtek actually said and showed more then more people might be convinced. Also, I'm sure Newtek's competitors shelled out the $395 to get intel on Core. If the competition knows, and HC members know, why keep the "normal" LW users in the dark?

Because even HC members do not know everything there is to know about CORE. It's not like they're handing out the source code to us. Generally our information is limited to weekly updates which usually center on what to expect in the next build of CORE. We also get some questions answered on where certain features are heading and some things to expect from CORE at an undefined later date. There's really not a lot there that would probably mean much to a competitor. The design goals of CORE have been laid out since the beginning. Sort of like the design goals of the restructuring of 3D Max. There's a lot of generality and there and not a lot of specific.

hrgiger
03-09-2010, 06:35 PM
I agree. Concentrate on Core. I'm sure the masses would be ok with holding on to LW 9.6. It's been almost 4 years since 9.0, one more year of developement on Core wouldn't hurt. It seems LW HC is a way of throwing us something to hold us over until Core is final. I say forget LW HC and just work on CORE!:screwy:

Not everyone though is prepared to or wants Newtek to focus on CORE and throw current LW to the side and have it weather (at least)the next few years until CORE is a production ready replacement. LWHC is a way to bridge some of the gap between the old and the new allowing people to continue using a supported platform but being able to take advantage of some of the extended capabilities of CORE in the same pipeline.

I want to see them focus on CORE as well, but I have to agree with the short term need for LWHC.

cyatic
03-09-2010, 06:36 PM
Because even HC members do not know everything there is to know about CORE. It's not like they're handing out the source code to us. Generally our information is limited to weekly updates which usually center on what to expect in the next build of CORE. We also get some questions answered on where certain features are heading and some things to expect from CORE at an undefined later date. There's really not a lot there that would probably mean much to a competitor. The design goals of CORE have been laid out since the beginning. Sort of like the design goals of the restructuring of 3D Max. There's a lot of generality and there and not a lot of specific.

So how exactly are the HC members shaping Lightwave Core? You get limited info weekly on what to expect and get some questions answered. I thought the HC membership was so you could be in the circle of trust. The way HC members have been speaking, it makes it seem like they're in there constantly getting and recieving feedback from Newtek about what they would like to see in Core. It also seems the only members getting benefits are the more skilled users which know more of the inner working of Lightwave. I think competitors would be able to get something out of HC membership. There are the released builds of Core and LW HC. :stumped:

jin choung
03-09-2010, 06:43 PM
whereas I can easily do the math and substantiate my point

let's see it : )

jin

SBowie
03-09-2010, 06:58 PM
If Newtek actually said and showed more then more people might be convinced. Also, I'm sure Newtek's competitors shelled out the $395 to get intel on Core. If the competition knows, and HC members know, why keep the "normal" LW users in the dark?I'm not arguing against supplying more information on Core publicly. Nor would most HC members. But that said, what do you want to be 'convinced of'? That the project is real? Surely not. What it's features are? They're not finished yet. That HC is worth joining? You've got much more information than most of us had when we joined, but again, HC is not for everyone, and it's really not (imho) time to market Core itself yet. So I'm not sure what you are really asking for. If just 'more info', then I agree, it would be nice, but it will come eventually.

jasonwestmas
03-09-2010, 06:58 PM
Yes, I pre-ordered 9.0 as well, and when it was released I got LW 9.0. I didn't get LW 8 HC which supported an WIP LW 9.0. Like I said, I tried HC Membership and found it just wasn't for me. I'd rather wait until LW Core is completely done, and a "unified/complete" piece of software. I was issued a refund which showed me Newtek is not just in it for the cash. Maybe they got to excited with their new product and showed it to the masses a tad early. Still support Newtek and can't wait for the final version of Core!!

When I ordered the LW 8.5 upgrade I recieved the 9.0 Beta and Beta forum before 9.0 was released. Sounds familiar to me. Oh and in the beginning of the beta I could barely use the 9.0 Beta either. Just for the record. Whatever

jin choung
03-09-2010, 06:59 PM
Funny, actually - I was thinking how comparable your insistence on the 'cash grab' seems to be to 'blind faith', since there's never been a shred of evidence

what evidence?

this is about MOTIVE.

FACT - THEY GRABBED CASH.

that is not in dispute.

so if you don't have insider info, you are just as blind to their true motive for grabbing cash than anyone else.

and if you have insider information, just say so rather than sputtering endlessly on this level. if you have insider information lay it out and unless there's reason to believe you're a liar, i'll take it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

and if anything, occam's rule favors my interpretation:

- NOT IN DISPUTE: THEY GRABBED CASH
- my interpretation: because they needed cash

simple.

as opposed to all the puffery about "offering the community to participate blah blah blah". which is problematic on so many levels....

1. how many cooks can a kitchen stand? not to mention a lot of the cooks simply being in the kitchen by virtue of having $395 lying around? how ludicrously trivial is software development that you can an army of passersby tossing things in willy nilly and have it make a meaningful impact?

2. what good is anyone's opinion when there's barely anything there in the first place? doesn't make much sense picking out the drapes when you're pouring the foundation. and if you're pouring the foundation, who gives a f about the goddam motherfing drapes and who the f let this guy who's asking about the goddam motherfing drapes into the construction site anyway?

you've got people talking about 3d software features when you probably need software engineers.

3. it is a tenuous and paper thin plan indeed that could be swayed to any meaningful extent by lay people jumping in during the building. kinda akin to an architect changing the building as onlookers throw out random suggestions.

so either the passersby have no real meaningful impact or the entire blueprint isn't worth the paper its printed on.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so make no mistake steveo, just cuz i haven't articulated reasons (out of kindness and mercy) doesn't mean that i haven't thought about them.

i've got that and much more which i can state even more eloquently when i have time.

so you want evidence of their motives? i've got none. want reasons why i think hardcore was a bullsh1t snakeoil move to drum up some cash, i can air those out if you want.

jin

SBowie
03-09-2010, 06:59 PM
let's see it : )
I'm sure a bright fellow like you can do simple math, Jin. Let's split the difference and assume HC subs brought in 1500 people. That money would have run out long ago. Now let's see your math about all the money NewTek pocketed on this infamous cash grab of yours.

SBowie
03-09-2010, 07:03 PM
so you want evidence of their motives? i've got none. want reasons why i think hardcore was a bullsh1t snakeoil move to drum up some cash, i can air those out if you want.No, you had it right first - I want to see your evidence, not your "reasons" (for jumping to a conclusion in the absence of evidence. I might have reasons for believing in the tooth fairy. That's not evidence. The math does not substantiate your claim. It does support mine. Let's see your evidence.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 07:06 PM
I'm sure a bright fellow like you can do simple math, Jin. Let's split the difference and assume HC subs brought in 1500 people. That money would have run out long ago.

1.

you're arguing fallaciously.

you're saying that some money isn't something because it isn't everything.

some money is not ALL MONEY.

but you know what some money is?

some money.

and you know what some money is better than?

NO MONEY.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.
and let's say that it brought in 1500 people. you think newtek considers that a rousing success? in line with what they hoped would turn up?

that's the other thing, 1500 people may be the reality. but it could also be a catastrophic failure on their part.

you gonna prove to me that they expected and wanted no more than 1500? hmmmm? LET'S SEE IT.

or did they have higher hopes that didn't pan out? boo fing hoo.

your argument is like saying a toaster company that sells 3 toasters isn't a failure... it's PROOF PROOF I SAY that it wasn't concerned about money.

clap..... clap..... clap.....

jin

Snosrap
03-09-2010, 07:07 PM
So how exactly are the HC members shaping Lightwave Core? You get limited info weekly on what to expect and get some questions answered. Believe me they've made a lot of changes/additions/improvements based on the feedback HC members have provided. And those changes have shown, me at least, how flexible their code is. If we as LW users want it, we can get it with Core, unlike the current codebase.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 07:09 PM
The math does not substantiate your claim.

your math is fallacious bullsh1t.

some money = some money.

and you can't prove that they didn't want MORE money but simply failed miserably. (but it must be nice living in your world stevie... "no honey, i'm not a failure... i just didn't care about making money."

------------------------------------

and as i said, how can i PROVE THEIR MOTIVES? how can you?

unless they told you?

FACT: they grabbed cash.

no evidence needed. it is an event that happened.

and if you think my opinion of their MOTIVES is bullsh1t, you now know exactly how little i think of yours.

: )

jin

hrgiger
03-09-2010, 07:13 PM
So how exactly are the HC members shaping Lightwave Core? You get limited info weekly on what to expect and get some questions answered. I thought the HC membership was so you could be in the circle of trust. The way HC members have been speaking, it makes it seem like they're in there constantly getting and recieving feedback from Newtek about what they would like to see in Core.

Just a hypothetical here. Newtek releases a build with a new tool. We say what we like about it, what we dislike about it and how it should function overall. We talk about workflows and GUI issues with what's sitting in front of us at the time and where we'd like to see it go. As far as feedback, Newtek already has the design of CORE in motion, we're just nudging it this way or that way as it goes. That said, we've seen some good changes made as a result of the feedback from HC members.

cyatic
03-09-2010, 07:15 PM
I'm not arguing against supplying more information on Core publicly. Nor would most HC members. But that said, what do you want to be 'convinced of'? That the project is real? Surely not. What it's features are? They're not finished yet. That HC is worth joining? You've got much more information than most of us had when we joined, but again, HC is not for everyone, and it's really not (imho) time to market Core itself yet. So I'm not sure what you are really asking for. If just 'more info', then I agree, it would be nice, but it will come eventually.

I would have to say more info for the masses. I'm convinced LW CORE be great when completed. There just seems to be a lot of hostility when Core is mentioned. I think more info would sooth the non-HC members. Like I said before, I tried it, wasn't for me. No harm, no foul. I'll still upgrade when it's a standalone.

cyatic
03-09-2010, 07:18 PM
When I ordered the LW 8.5 upgrade I recieved the 9.0 Beta and Beta forum before 9.0 was released. Sounds familiar to me. Oh and in the beginning of the beta I could barely use the 9.0 Beta either. Just for the record. Whatever

I too was in the beta. When 9.0 was released it was complete, not a WIP. Yes, I know it had some bugs like all software, but overall it was a complete version.

cyatic
03-09-2010, 07:25 PM
Just a hypothetical here. Newtek releases a build with a new tool. We say what we like about it, what we dislike about it and how it should function overall. We talk about workflows and GUI issues with what's sitting in front of us at the time and where we'd like to see it go. As far as feedback, Newtek already has the design of CORE in motion, we're just nudging it this way or that way as it goes. That said, we've seen some good changes made as a result of the feedback from HC members.

cool, thanks for the reply.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 07:41 PM
Really Jin, that's kinda foolish and going WAY too far to the other side. In this world, you have to pay for virtually everything. If you want to play, you've got to pay. JUST because religious cults and pyramid schemes ALSO fit into that mold does not equate to the CORE membership.

i'm not saying it does.

i'm just letting steve know that his notion that "putting your money where your mouth is" on an incomplete product, sight unseen, "for the privelege of helping to develop" (which is normally something you would get paid for btw), where they don't care about any qualifications except the fact that you have money, and that a project can muscle through on the power of the good intentions and enthusiasm of fans....

i'm just letting steve know that that's just incredibly, really.... smart.

: )

jin

robertoortiz
03-09-2010, 07:48 PM
jin this has become a circular argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_argument).

Can we move on?
An argument can be made about methodologies of Rapid Application Developmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_application_development)t, but I feel this will fall on deaf ears.

Lets move on, your point has been made.

erikals
03-09-2010, 07:49 PM
So how exactly are the HC members shaping Lightwave Core? You get limited info weekly on what to expect and get some questions answered. I thought the HC membership was so you could be in the circle of trust. The way HC members have been speaking, it makes it seem like they're in there constantly getting and recieving feedback from Newtek about what they would like to see in Core.
i basically answer this below.


It also seems the only members getting benefits are the more skilled users which know more of the inner working of Lightwave. I think competitors would be able to get something out of HC membership. There are the released builds of Core and LW HC.
the input from a person that knows jack about 3D and the newest technology today could have very useful input. but often it unfortunately does not turn out to be like that. it's strangely peaceful at HC, no stupid fights, just people disagreeing if anything. but mostly just users collaborating to suggest the best new or altered solutions.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 07:51 PM
jin this has become a circular argument.

Can we move on?

my participation in this latest bout has been a REACTION to spin. if the spin meisters will cease their spinning, i can cease my deconstruction.

jin

DragonFist
03-09-2010, 07:53 PM
I too was in the beta. When 9.0 was released it was complete, not a WIP. Yes, I know it had some bugs like all software, but overall it was a complete version.

But when one was able to enter the beta forums (I don't know when you did) 9.0 was far from finished. I won't go as far as to say it was in as incomplete a state as Core was at start of HC -- it at least had the code base of 8.5; however, there were many incomplete and unimplemented features.

I do understand that Core will not be "complete" at the time it will be issued. It is at best a glorified plug-in for LWHC no matter what benefit it may give in that capacity. But all of this was known from the start.

This is a difficult transition period for Newtek. There is NO WAY they are going to keep all their customers happy no matter which route they take. Just isn't going to happen. Lightwave 10 classic all the way, drop the re-write = threads bashing Newtek for not moving ahead and battling with an out of date, difficult to work with code-base and all the upset with "half-baked, bolted-on" efforts to provide functionality. Leave Lightwave 10 dead in the water, close the doors and don't come out until Core is a feature complete app = threads bashing Newtek for not supporting there current customers and codebase, etc.

The route they've chosen to take is, really, the only sensible route. It still results in "threads that bash Newtek for < fill in your side of the argument here >" but at least both side are getting something out of the deal. LWHC is getting development and Core is being developed and all will get some benefit from each aspect until it is done. Neither as much as that side of the fence wants it to be, but neither neglected either. Newtek simply has to weather this period and attempt to show good manners to all though little will be shown to them. I think they've been good sports about it.

Those making an effort to show Newtek's offer to the community to be a part of this phase as some sort of shady deal are exposing a reflection of their own souls and insisting that we must be as mistrusting as they are. In the end, Newtek is a business. Of course they ask for money in return for something, that's how it works. The terms of the deal were made clear from the beginning and many attempts to make them clearer have been made since.

I didn't join HC because I couldn't justify the cost at the time for a year of playing with an unfinished app. 9.6 works for what I use it for at the time being and what I could really make use of (CA tools) were clearly not going to arrive any time soon. But if I had joined, I'm certain I wouldn't have felt "ripped off" because I would have gotten exactly what I paid for and understood from the beginning.

It was very clear from the beginning that joining HC meant you were buying the next upgrade to lightwave that, at version one, wouldn't be a standalone app, but you were getting a discount by pre-ordering and also being given an opportunity to participate in its development via a beta-like program.

Anyone trying to twist it into something is doing just that. If they wish to do so for their own mental state, etc., so be it. But please stop trying to push it off on the rest of us. It is getting old already. Go buy a program fits your needs and doesn't make you feel ripped off (even when you haven't spent a dime on it. If you did, get a refund and do the same.)

Does any of this mean that Newtek has made all the right decisions? Hell to the no!

As mentioned, various marketing attempts were snafus. Though even there, we're all here talking about Core, so it wasn't all bad.

Sorry for long post, but I've been keeping my mouth shut for a while now and needed to get it all out. Only the first part is directed at the quote. The rest just came as I typed.

Peace.

erikals
03-09-2010, 07:55 PM
...where they don't care about any qualifications except the fact that you have money, and that a project can muscle through on the power of the good intentions and enthusiasm of fans....
they do have most of the best people, and you are starting to sound, sorry, not very clever, to think that it runs on the "good intentions and enthusiasm of fans"

SBowie
03-09-2010, 08:21 PM
you're arguing fallaciously.Nope. What I see supports what I said, and has from the get-go. Not nearly enough money to fund the effort, hence not the reason for the offer. There's no spin to that. If it was a cynical cash grab, you'd want to maximize the cash grabbed. There's been no effort to do that (and it's clearly not just that there was an effort but it sucked). If you're going to mug or con some dope who is holding $100, you don't grab a fiver and run.


but you know what some money is?

some money.you know what some money is in the amount we're talking about here? Not even remotely close to enough - a drop in the bucket. Your argument simply doesn't hold enough water to float even a tiny boat, but continue clinging desperately to it. Lot's of people find comfort in blind faith. :)

Mike_RB
03-09-2010, 08:23 PM
Jin, your major complaint is how Newtek presented the HC 'opportunity', and how some people agree with their presentation of how HC works/ is working.

Shrug. Why bother with the fight? If you don't agree you're not going to convince anyone.

I personally mostly agree with what you're saying, it was likely too early and the marketing was presented poorly about what people would get. They are still struggling with the clarity of their message. I bought in because I wanted to see this new thing called core sprout and maybe throw my 2c (canadian, so like 1.75c US) in every now and again. Why not? I've always been a fan of LW, but I seriously wasn't expecting to be doing real production work with it any time soon, I know how long these things take.

SBowie
03-09-2010, 08:28 PM
FACT: they grabbed cash.I bought a nice monitor today. They also 'grabbed my cash'. Shame on them. It was the same with HC. I bought a product (since I already had 9.6, I paid in advance, but I'm fine with that), and a service, and certain privileges. I paid for it. If 'goods for payment' was the definition of a cash grab, you'd finally have a fact to base your speculation on ... alas, it's not. :thumbsup:

jasonwestmas
03-09-2010, 08:34 PM
I too was in the beta. When 9.0 was released it was complete, not a WIP. Yes, I know it had some bugs like all software, but overall it was a complete version.

Lightwave 9.6 is not complete in my perspective, but that's besides the point.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 08:39 PM
they do have most of the best people, and you are starting to sound, sorry, not very clever, to think that it runs on the "good intentions and enthusiasm of fans"

and you should refrain from commmenting on things you don't understand.

english is probably not your first language. correct?

no problem. nothing wrong with that.

but you might want to reconsider engaging someone in debate that you simply don't get.

it's a losing proposition.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 08:42 PM
you know what some money is in the amount we're talking about here? Not even remotely close to enough - a drop in the bucket.

so they failed. really really badly. the HC program was a gigantic, spectacular, soul crushing failure of an attempt to raise revenue.

does that make you feel better?

you are living in lala land and fail to see simple facts when presented with them.

(spinning so relentlessly, aren't you afraid it'll stick and you won't be able to see ANYTHING straight?)

good luck with that.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 08:45 PM
Nope. What I see supports what I said, and has from the get-go. Not nearly enough money to fund the effort, hence not the reason for the offer.

you're not even being logical.

if a company fails, is it because they had no intent to succeed? hahahahahahaha.

that's just dopey stevie.

and what i see about the idiocy of "group participation" supports what i say.

if you're the kinda guy that likes talking about the drapes before there are even walls to hang the fing windows from, well... have fun with that.

it's such a wise way to project manage....

: )

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 08:50 PM
I bought a nice monitor today. They also 'grabbed my cash'. Shame on them.

it would be.

if the monitor wasn't finished.

was announced before they purchased the glass.

and asked you to pay to help design it.

you got nothin' but speculation either stevo... cuz unless they TOLD you their MOTIVES, you got zip.

you can try to spin it so it makes you feel better about your "investment" but you got nothin'.

but if you have insider info, spill it.

if not, you're speculation is far less credible than mine. (because according to your rhetorical strategy, simply stating something makes it so.... i love that.)

: )

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 08:53 PM
Shrug. Why bother with the fight? If you don't agree you're not going to convince anyone.


and yet steve persists in his faith that he can convince me.

and so it amuses me to return the favor and seek to disabuse him of his rose colored folly.

jin

Mike_RB
03-09-2010, 09:08 PM
and yet steve persists in his faith that he can convince me.

and so it amuses me to return the favor and seek to disabuse him of his rose colored folly.

jin

Can we talk about the "shoot 1st" alien civ strategy and the relativistic kill vehicles again instead? That was more interesting.

CGI Addict
03-09-2010, 09:14 PM
Jin, what's up man.

It appears you like to read your comments more than the rest of us. Ok, your feelings about Core and NT are VERY well documented, Everybody knows this. It's like you get back from wherever you work and can't wait to go on about the topic, as if your taking this way to personally.

Step away from the keyboard and let NT do their job, let Core make it's debut and then continue your commentary. Again, everyone by now is aware of what you think on this topic and no one faults you for feeling that way. But it certainly doesn't mean your right or that anyone opposing you is right, it just means your arguing a moot point as said software hasn't even had a chance to get out the door. Please step back a few and let's see what NT puts out there. Than I and others would love to read your take on it.

erikals
03-09-2010, 09:15 PM
...but you might want to reconsider engaging someone in debate that you simply don't get.

sorry if i misunderstood. but you DID after all write ONE sentence on FOUR lines.

DragonFist
03-09-2010, 09:21 PM
and you should refrain from commmenting on things you don't understand.

english is probably not your first language. correct?

no problem. nothing wrong with that.

but you might want to reconsider engaging someone in debate that you simply don't get.

it's a losing proposition.

jin

I removed you from my ignore list to see what the 4 posts were about. You're going right back on it.

Whether or not you have valid points (and some that I see in quoted comments) you are insultive and abusive of others. That seems to be your method of handling debate -- can't find a logical rebutal? Insult the person or attempt to lower their status. Obvious to anyone who cares to look and believe me, it is not their status that is lowered by this action. My opinion of you dropped the first time I saw you do it.

You'll probably counter this with insults toward me. So be it. I won't see them unless someone quotes you.

It is sad really because I've seen you point out some good points that if acted on, would improve Lightwave. But your presentation of these points lowers their value and your nullification of your fellows only serves to breed hostility towards you.

It might get you attention, but its not the type I would want, that's for sure. But if you like others thinking you are an @#[email protected]!#, you're doing a great job.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:31 PM
I removed you from my ignore list to see what the 4 posts were about. You're going right back on it.

Whether or not you have valid points (and some that I see in quoted comments) you are insultive and abusive of others. That seems to be your method of handling debate -- can't find a logical rebutal? Insult the person or attempt to lower their status. Obvious to anyone who cares to look and believe me, it is not their status that is lowered by this action. My opinion of you dropped the first time I saw you do it.

You'll probably counter this with insults toward me. So be it. I won't see them unless someone quotes you.

It is sad really because I've seen you point out some good points that if acted on, would improve Lightwave. But your presentation of these points lowers their value and your nullification of your fellows only serves to breed hostility towards you.

It might get you attention, but its not the type I would want, that's for sure. But if you like others thinking you are an @#[email protected]!#, you're doing a great job.

i hope you put me back on your ignore list cuz your hit and run tactics from within that safe haven are endlessly amusing for the whole family not to mention not at all cowardly.

lol.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:33 PM
Jin, what's up man.

It appears you like to read your comments more than the rest of us.

nono,

steve likes to hear the sound of his own voice just fine as well.

as i said, everything that i'm going on about right now is a reaction.

if the instigation stops, the reaction stops.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:35 PM
Than I and others would love to read your take on it.

i could care less if you read my take on it.

my current exchange of barbs is with steve. does not involve you.

as you said, "step away from the keyboard".

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 09:36 PM
i'm starting to think Jin is not serious, just having a laugh at us all for taking on the energy to reply.
if so, he should receive a medal, cause he plays his role well.

just think about it. how can i have fun with this, and get away with it.
the answer is quite simple, talk in circles, don't post any evidence, post some lies, call people names, ignore certain questions,... and there you have it. you can entertain yourself with the various answers, and without being kicked out. now how's that for some days of entertainment? fun stuff.

CGI Addict
03-09-2010, 09:37 PM
I like how you broke my comments in two. Says a lot about your demeanor for sure.

I think it's time you got a girlfriend.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:38 PM
i'm starting to think Jin is not serious, just having a laugh at us all for taking on the energy to reply.
if so, he should receive a medal, cause he plays his role well.

just think about it. how can i have fun with this, and get away with it.
the answer is quite simple, talk in circles, don't post any evidence, post some lies, call people names, ignore certain questions,... and there you have it. you can entertain yourself with the various answers, and without being kicked out. now how's that for some days of entertainment? fun stuff.

and yet you just keep going to keep me entertained.

you're a right humanitarian you are.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:40 PM
I like how you broke my comments in two. Says a lot about your demeanor for sure.

I think it's time you got a girlfriend.

awwwww...

that's adorable. good for you! way to take a swing. feel better now buttercup?

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:41 PM
did somebody leave the fanboy closet open or something?

i feel a draft.

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 09:42 PM
and yet you just keep going to keep me entertained.

you're a right humanitarian you are.

jin

no, now i have been assigned another project. "Project Jin"

erikals
03-09-2010, 09:44 PM
did somebody leave the fanboy closet open or something?
i feel a draft.

jin

Maahahaha..... LOL.... http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/ohmy.gif

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:45 PM
no, now i have been assigned another project. "Project Jin"

ok,

is that supposed to mean something?

srsly. what IS your native language?

jin

CGI Addict
03-09-2010, 09:47 PM
hahahaha!

Ya I do! You know I'm right!

erikals
03-09-2010, 09:48 PM
it's quite easy, i need to study more how you go about answering stuff. that's "Project Jin"

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:49 PM
hahahaha!

Ya I do! You know I'm right!

ahhh, that's just so cute.

good for you sport. you're doing ever so well. who's a big boy? who's a big boy?

: )

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:50 PM
it's quite easy, i need to study more how you go about answering stuff. that's "Project Jin"

again, what is your native language?

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 09:52 PM
again, what is your native language?

jin

now you're going in circles again.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:53 PM
now you're going in circles again.

again, what's your native language?

jin

Snosrap
03-09-2010, 09:53 PM
jin, please just finish that sandwich!

CGI Addict
03-09-2010, 09:53 PM
now you're going in circles again.

Jin and circles, humm . . . I think you hit on something Erkals.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:55 PM
jin, please just finish that sandwich!

either tell "your side" to back off or get in line. cuz i will stick just as long as they do.

and happy to oblige.

come on, who's next?

: )

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 09:57 PM
so, you require others to answer while refraining to answer yourself? interesting.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 09:57 PM
so, you require others to answer while refraining to answer yourself? interesting.

again, what is your native language?

jin

CGI Addict
03-09-2010, 10:00 PM
Jin, who took your milk money? Give the word and all of us fellow Lightwavers will take it to her.

erikals
03-09-2010, 10:01 PM
you tell me Jin.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 10:47 PM
you tell me Jin.

again, what is your native language?

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 10:48 PM
Jin, who took your milk money? Give the word and all of us fellow Lightwavers will take it to her.

meh,

that was just lame....

does that pass for wit where you come from?

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 10:50 PM
btw, what in the world is happening in HC such that the fanboy furor spills over and rises to such volume?

it certainly does seem that some are "protesting too much...." or got hit "a little too close to the bone"... ?

hmmmmmm....

jin

DragonFist
03-09-2010, 10:59 PM
One does not even need to read to replies to see the game going on and I am sure it is entertaining.

However, there are forum rules:


The NewTek Discussion Forums are a private venue provided as a service to NewTek customers at NewTek's discretion. As such, the NewTek Discussion Forums are not a free speech zone, they are for professional and civil discourse regarding NewTek products by NewTek users.

The following items are not considered professional or civil discourse allowed on these forums:

* Off-topic and controversial subjects such as Religion and Politics
* Comments of an "off color" nature inappropriate for viewing by minors
* Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature
* Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members
* Promotional messages and material for competing products

Those who are unable to keep their posts on topic, unable to maintain responsible civil conversation with others or who have no purpose on the NewTek forums other than to promote competing products will have their accounts removed.

I'd suggest you attempt to keep your posts with said guide lines. Not because it is in the rules, but because it just works out better when you treat people respectfully.

erikals
03-09-2010, 11:04 PM
again, what is your native language?
jin

who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:04 PM
but because it just works out better when you treat people respectfully.

hypocritical.

quite.

so in addition to cowardly, we add hypocritical. and perhaps "rules quoter who fails to realize that he himself has failed to comply with said rules".

which actually just adds up to "doubly cowardly" hiding behind both an ignore list AND the forum rules... stepping out only momentarily to take a swing at someone's back!

hahahahahahaha...

so maybe cowardly, maybe hypocritical, maybe rules quoter... but hey, undoubtedly classy.

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:05 PM
who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?

again, what is your native language?

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:06 PM
evidently, we have all night.

who's next?

step on up.

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 11:09 PM
it's just you and me Jin, and it's morning here, i have all morning and all night.

so let me hear you say it...

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:10 PM
it's just you and me Jin, and it's morning here, i have all morning and all night.

so let me hear you say it...

again, what is your native language?

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 11:26 PM
"again, what is your native language?"
jin

Constructive.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:27 PM
Constructive.

again, what is your native language?

jin

evenflcw
03-09-2010, 11:27 PM
again, what is your native language?

jin

I had always suspected Jin was a broken record. I'd ask someone to give the needle a push but I don't want to hear the rest. Just ban him already!

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:29 PM
I have always suspected Jin was a broken record. I'd ask someone to give the needle a push but I don't want to hear the rest. Just ban him already!

wow, you guys on the rag or something?

soooooooo sensitive.

geez, what IS going on with hc?

jin

btw, it is so refreshing that you realize that you are contributing to the noise with your meaningless but nonetheless irritating participation. thanks for playing.

rkpdesign
03-09-2010, 11:30 PM
again, what is your native language?

jin

What exactly does that have to do with this discussion?

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:34 PM
What exactly does that have to do with this discussion?

it's the ludicrousness of someone who doesn't quite understand the nuances of what you're saying but nonetheless takes it upon himself to try to debate you.

instead of doing the sensible thing of both staying out of arguments that don't involve him as well as not trying to fight with someone that you don't really understand and who doesn't really understand you.

so instead of constantly having to explain the finer points of my arguments, i have simply decided to give him the hand of repetition.

the relationship gives us both meaning.

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 11:37 PM
yes, i love Jin, and he loves me. he completes me.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:38 PM
yes, i love Jin, and he loves me. he completes me.

again, what is your native language?

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:40 PM
The latest build has quite a bit more of a LW feel and should alleviate any doubt that Newtek is doing exactly as they said they would - adding the LW workflow when and wherever possible. Looks like a REALLY great build. So... HC is coming along nicely. :thumbsup:

Hopefully Newtek will show some videos soon to everyone outside of the HC forum. Impressive... most impressive.

so where is all this insecure, thin skinned defensiveness coming from?

it seems like the fanboys are indeed coming out of the woodwork. and they're hurt and their scared and they won't tolerate anyone saying anything mean about lw or newtek.

they say together with one shrill voice, "just leave them aloooone! why can't you just leave them alooooooone?!"

brittney spears' defenders got nothing on this crowd.

jin

rkpdesign
03-09-2010, 11:43 PM
I am disappointed to see that we have devolved again in this thread to be unable to air differences and to provide honest and productive discourse to each other without deriding each other or demeaning the concept of a discussion.

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:50 PM
I am disappointed to see that we have devolved again in this thread to be unable to air differences and to provide honest and productive discourse to each other without deriding each other or demeaning the concept of a discussion.

i agree.

but differences of opinion cannot be allowed to stand.

we can't just leave it at agreeing to disagree - acknowledging that one will never persuade another to see it in a different light. no. we must relentlessly push our own interpretation, defend our own positions to the death and caricature all opposing positions as the ravings of madmen.

it's positively american.

jin

evenflcw
03-09-2010, 11:52 PM
wow, you guys on the rag or something?

soooooooo sensitive.

geez, what IS going on with hc?

jin

btw, it is so refreshing that you realize that you are contributing to the noise with your meaningless but nonetheless irritating participation. thanks for playing.

I'm not playing anything. I really want you off this forum because you are just annoying. You are either just rude or a psychopath (a diagnosis not an insult) because your last paragraph just summed up your presence on this board. Noise, meaningless and irritating. And you're not even remotely funny. So who needs you?

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:54 PM
I'm not playing anything. I really want you off this forum because you are just annoying. You are either just rude or a psychopath (a diagnosis not an insult) because your last paragraph just summed up your presence on this board. Noise, meaningless and irritating. And you're not even remotely funny. So who needs you?

well....

i really want you off this forum because you're pointless, irritating and apparently contribute nothing to anything and exist solely to editorialize me.

so who needs you?

i want YOU banned!

how do you like them apples?!

muahahahahaha

jin

jin choung
03-09-2010, 11:57 PM
I was part of something similar over at Spinquad.

so why has this started up recently both here and in spinquad?

what's going on so that these fanboys who aren't directly engaged in a discussion about core at all just decide to get really thin skinned and go all "leave brittney alone?" on the situation?

i was content - as you were, to leave it at "i'm not gonna convince you, you're not gonna convince me".

but they couldn't let it lie.

so it makes me wonder... has something happened somewhere that i'm not aware of?

jin

erikals
03-09-2010, 11:57 PM
the problem is some talk BS, or twist things, to center the discussion around themselves. they probably get a mental kick out of it.

i guess that chases other good constructive critique away.

jin choung
03-10-2010, 12:01 AM
the problem is some talk BS, or twist things, to center the discussion around themselves. they probably get a mental kick out of it.

i guess that chases other good constructive critique away.

again, what is your native language?

jin

DragonFist
03-10-2010, 12:07 AM
...
Being annoying is not a forum offense. Even rudeness isn't AFAIK.
...



Those who are unable to keep their posts on topic, unable to maintain responsible civil conversation with others or who have no purpose on the NewTek forums other than to promote competing products will have their accounts removed.

When does rudeness cross over to "unable to maintain responsible civil conversation with others" is obviously for the moderators to decide. Posters do have a responsibility to the community to remain civil.

This thread had worth as tidbits of data on core came through for those of us who may not be in HC but are watching development as closely as is possible. It was derailed by pointless post, personal attacks and just plain rudeness. And from what I can see, willfully so. And not by a "few" but by one. I have no problem with differing views and was actually enjoying the debate while it was civil -- happily gleaning new data about where Core is at and where it is heading. Then it became something else as many other threads and for the same reasons.

jin choung
03-10-2010, 12:10 AM
I think it's about different areas. I was getting tired of listening to Bryphi attack and attack Newtek for the fun of it. I probably shouldn't have entered into the "conversation" but couldn't resist. I know you're critical of Newtek as well - as witnessed in this thread - and there is no way (as we've already established) that anyone is going to change their mind over the discourse provided in thie thread. Which... is why I said EVERYONE should just go back to being productive.

When CORE comes out... then we'll have something REALLY interesting to discuss.

and i can totally live with that.

jin

erikals
03-10-2010, 12:15 AM
Bryphi has the same problem, not being constructive and a "what u gonna do about it" attitude.
he is banned here, (several times afaik) probably almost got banned at CGtalk the other day too.

it's cool to have people with talent in a forum,
but when they literally start to piss in threads it's time to say goodbye.

DragonFist
03-10-2010, 01:02 AM
Yes... unfortunately it took me too long to realize that. :bangwall:

But as far as I'm concerned... I don't care HOW talented anyone is, when you start acting like that there really is no excuse. If they can't play nice (meaning no severely derrogatory name-calling) with the rest of the group... :2guns:

Couldn't agree more. It has nothing to do with talent or even if one is right. It is about playing nice with the group. Fortunately, it usually a relative few that do this. Unfortunately, they tend to get everyone else riled up making it hard to spot who the instigator is. But when you do and get them off the line, things tend to settle down and the group can get back to its purpose, game, etc.

jin choung
03-10-2010, 01:03 AM
but when they literally start to piss in threads it's time to say goodbye.

and this is where your logic and your language fail you.

you don't control the forum. neither does evenflower or whatever the f his name is. or cgiaddict.

you know what you control?

the IGNORE BUTTON.

if you don't like me, i can give a rats a$s. it is laughably inconsequential to me.

but guess what? you can be RID OF ME.

forever and ever.

JUST HIT THE IGNORE BUTTON.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

all of you... you mob of relentless fanboy defenders, if you want to be rid of me, all you have to do is hit IGNORE.

your refusal to do so points at your real motive. that you seek not to just be rid of me from your own presence but you want to SILENCE THE OPINION of someone who disagrees with you.

OTHERWISE, WHY NOT do all of us a favor and HIT IGNORE?

i offend you. i find you ridiculous. so WHY ENGAGE ME? that is the obvious and ridiculous question. answer is you are trying to control me. well sorry bub, that ain't gonna happen. : ) is it not MORBIDLY CLEAR THAT WHEN YOU ENGAGE ME, YOU ARE THROWING FUEL ON THE FIRE?

and for pity's sake stop criticizing me because all it does is make me more vocal, make me criticize you back (and do it better because i don't whine about it), make me come back harder and makes me say things against newtek that i would otherwise have left unsaid. you are not doing newtek favors when you "stand up for them".

they're big boys and THEY DO control the forums. they can take care of themselves.

and don't be ridiculous like the dragonfister or whatever he is... ignore me and KEEP ME IGNORED!

you can have your say.

i will have mine.

whether you like it or not.

and for some of you newer folks - ganging up doesn't work on me. there are MANY who can testify to that. but if YOU are hellbent on making things REALLY ugly... pile on! : )

JUST IGNORE ME. unlike some people, i do not pop in using aliases. i will always just be me and if you want to be rid of me, HIT THE IGNORE BUTTON and you WILL be rid of me forever.

-----------------------------------------------------------

if you want to argue, then you're doing the right thing. only thing is you gotta stop b1tching that i'm "making you argue" because YOU ARE AN EQUAL PARTNER THEN IN THE RUCKUS YOU HELP TO MAKE.

if you don't put me on the ignore list, you bring it literally on yourself. you lie when you call me the trouble maker. because you are equally to blame.

if i had control of your accounts, heck, i'd do you the favor of putting MYSELF on your ignore lists.

so stop the fing whining and IGNORE.

jin

p.s. i say again because so many are hard of hearing: IF YOU DO NOT USE YOUR IGNORE BUTTON, MAKE NO FING MISTAKE - YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM THAT YOU B1TCH ABOUT. and if rabble rousing is a ban worthy offense, you deserve to be banned every bit as much if you don't use that goddam button. so CHOOSE. fight if you wanna fight but fight like a man and stop whining about fighting for fs sake.

*Pete*
03-10-2010, 01:04 AM
@ weetos & kuzey.

You are considering to get into core, but if you do, make sure you do it for the "right reasons".

Do not expect to see anything amazingly usefull or tools you just cant live without.

Understand that it is at alpha stage and that a lot will have to change before it will be usefull companion to lw.

Your initial reaction might be a disapointment.
But...a deeper look at core and its soon-to-be-future might well turn the disapointment into a positive emotion...core has a lot going for it, just not yet.
At v1.0 it should be usefull enough, even if not independant


Now, once in the hc, you will soon understand why nt wanted us in so early on.
We are important...nt needs us.
Lw is 2 apps, core will be 1 app...needless to say, things have to change.
We, in hc, work hard to help nt to keep the good stuff from lw.
Sometimes it is not so obvious what is good and if the new stuff is better not only on paper, but also in reality.

I have described workflows in modeler that i took as so natural that i never thought how important they are...you dont know what you have until you lose it...so, with core still at an early stage of development we have a good chance to help nt to shape core to include these features nobody ever thought of.

Im being intentionally vague, but im telling you...the feature i speak of is not something you would consider important, not until its changed to a more standard version, similiar to other apps.
(if Jay&Chuck is reading this, no...im not speaking about the eagle in a barrel, which is of course usefull, but not vital)

If you feel lw is comfortable for you and want to take part in shaping core into a equally comfortable app, please do join us.
But if you are looking for a production ready 3d app, you should wait.

*Pete*
03-10-2010, 01:21 AM
jin, stop fighting.

Call it cash grab if you want, but dont assume that we (the rest of us) are naive or stupid.

Cash grab is a matter of definiton, you make it sound like as nt stole something or that nt needed (as in desperately) the money.

I think they needed betatesters more, but i wont start a discussion about it, since it really does not matter.

What matters is if you think 399 is a fair price for core or not and if you trust nt to deliver a product worth the money.

Since the preorder is a discount i might argue for that we (hc) made a cashgrab...but again, its not important.

jin choung
03-10-2010, 01:22 AM
jin, stop fighting.

please read what i wrote and stop telling me what to do. people seem to be in the business of late of trying to tell me what to do around here. i don't know what kind of madness has gripped people thinking they can tell me what to do.

....

i cannot fight BY MYSELF.

all they need to do is IGNORE ME.

jin

jin choung
03-10-2010, 01:28 AM
jin, stop fighting.

Call it cash grab if you want, but dont assume that we (the rest of us) are naive or stupid.

Cash grab is a matter of definiton, you make it sound like as nt stole something or that nt needed (as in desperately) the money.

I think they needed betatesters more, but i wont start a discussion about it, since it really does not matter.

What matters is if you think 399 is a fair price for core or not and if you trust nt to deliver a product worth the money.

Since the preorder is a discount i might argue for that we (hc) made a cashgrab...but again, its not important.

you sure you don't want to have a discussion?

cuz that's a lot of material there. sounds to me like you want to have a discussion.

that's the general problem. people want to have their say but they evidently don't want to have to talk about it! especially with people that disagree with them.

argh.

so really. if you don't want to have a discussion, let's not have a discussion.

and don't tell me what to do. doesn't work.

jin

*Pete*
03-10-2010, 01:44 AM
lol Jin.

Its tempting to get into a discussion, but since im reading this thread with my phone and pay per kb sent and received, ill refrain from it.

As intresting it might be, in the end of the day we would only agree to disagree...

Ill save my money...not that you are not worth it, but becouse it is a useless topic.

As for fighting, true...you are not the only one, but you are the only one on "your side"...you have the power to end it by stopping your resposes to them.

You do as you want, of course...

erikals
03-10-2010, 01:55 AM
Jin, how can i ignore you? you literally spam threads.

or have a laugh at us "fanboys" in every other sentence.

no, I've had it.

jin choung
03-10-2010, 01:56 AM
Jin, how can i ignore you? you literally spam threads.

or have a laugh at us "fanboys" in every other sentence.

no, I've had it.

again, i don't understand.

"no, i've had it." what the f does that mean? >eyes roll<

if you've had it, USE THE IGNORE BUTTON!!! you won't see ANYTHING. BY ME. NOTHING.

do you understand what the IGNORE BUTTON does? IT'S IN USER CP.

what is your major malfunction? such that you must persist in your irritating interactions with me?

you don't like what i have to say. i don't care for you. but i don't complain about it. but you do. so DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND PUT ME ON IGNORE.

you're like a little kid that says "i hate that guy" and your mom tells you to just stay away from him but you keep going over to him and saying "i hate that guy".

IGNORE BUTTON. IT'S A THING. JUST DO IT!

jin

erikals
03-10-2010, 02:15 AM
no, i won't.

but you go ahead, please put me on ignore, cause you're the one that has issues with people here.

jin choung
03-10-2010, 02:16 AM
no, i won't.

hahahaha....

as someone else said, if it's just ONE GUY, it's VERY EASY to avoid that ONE GUY. put him on your ignore list.

but if you won't, then stop complaining like a wearisome baby. because you are part of the problem. you can't blame me now. you are just as culpable. own it.

congratulations.


jin

djlithium
03-10-2010, 02:17 AM
can we (non HC members) make a suggestion/petition? How about posting future videos or screenshots with a Lightwave theme? i mean, a light grey UI, short height buttons, icons disabled, etc.
I think it'll help a lot with misconceptions about what lightwave, core, hc, with core technology, etc, will be...
I feel, and i think i'm no the only one, that LW Core is just a whole different APP, i know it is, but i dont even recognize it as LW. Personally i'll love to see this "new version" with lightwave identity.

so... who's with me????

I would like to see it. It would restore a lot of confidence for me.

erikals
03-10-2010, 02:20 AM
hahahaha....

as someone else said, if it's just ONE GUY, it's VERY EASY to avoid that ONE GUY. put him on your ignore list.

but if you won't, then stop complaining like a wearisome baby. because you are part of the problem. you can't blame me now. you are just as culpable. own it.

congratulations.

jin

well, who knows, maybe in the future we will come to a settlement.
until then...

dnch
03-10-2010, 02:31 AM
i still like fanboys more than trolls

jin choung
03-10-2010, 02:32 AM
i still like fanboys more than trolls

good for you!

jin

Weetos
03-10-2010, 03:05 AM
Wow this thread is somehow hard to follow...

errm do you guys have a life besides web forums ? :D


@ weetos & kuzey.

You are considering to get into core, but if you do, make sure you do it for the "right reasons".

Do not expect to see anything amazingly usefull or tools you just cant live without.

Understand that it is at alpha stage and that a lot will have to change before it will be usefull companion to lw.

Your initial reaction might be a disapointment.
But...a deeper look at core and its soon-to-be-future might well turn the disapointment into a positive emotion...core has a lot going for it, just not yet.
At v1.0 it should be usefull enough, even if not independant


Now, once in the hc, you will soon understand why nt wanted us in so early on.
We are important...nt needs us.
Lw is 2 apps, core will be 1 app...needless to say, things have to change.
We, in hc, work hard to help nt to keep the good stuff from lw.
Sometimes it is not so obvious what is good and if the new stuff is better not only on paper, but also in reality.

I have described workflows in modeler that i took as so natural that i never thought how important they are...you dont know what you have until you lose it...so, with core still at an early stage of development we have a good chance to help nt to shape core to include these features nobody ever thought of.

Im being intentionally vague, but im telling you...the feature i speak of is not something you would consider important, not until its changed to a more standard version, similiar to other apps.
(if Jay&Chuck is reading this, no...im not speaking about the eagle in a barrel, which is of course usefull, but not vital)

If you feel lw is comfortable for you and want to take part in shaping core into a equally comfortable app, please do join us.
But if you are looking for a production ready 3d app, you should wait.

Thanks mate for your reply (somehow had to dig deeeeep to see it :hey:)
Well I understand Core is in alpha stage and all, that's fine by me - that wasn't clear when it all began, but now I guess everyone knows.

I'm still hesitating simply because I don't really know how useful my participation in this would be - I know some old time good LW artists are participating and I'm confident they do have interesting things to share with the devs - Now I wonder if NT listens to them and if they do, to what extent ?

I guess I'm too used to dozens half-baked tools that eventually never do the job you expect them to do, and that never get polished or unified - so this new way of handling software dev is kinda new to me, and I'm really hoping NT changed in that area - so I must admit I'm afraid to signup and then realize nothing changed.

I guess I'll make my mind some day ;) Anyway thank you Pete for sharing

colkai
03-10-2010, 03:09 AM
I took a simple route.
Having first signed up based on expectations when Core was announced, my confidence in the way things went took a beating. So I opted out, even lost money on it due to currency fluctuations.

Once Core 1.0 finally arrives and assuming a demo is available, I will test it and see if it holds anything that makes me think it is a "must buy".

Assuming of course I have any disposable income at the time and it also offers something that LW9.6 plus Blender 2.5 cannot provide a suitable alternative to.
Simples.

As it stands, I regret more jumping too quickly onto the Core wagon than jumping off it.

Soth
03-10-2010, 03:16 AM
LOL, this topic looks so much better after adding Jin to ignore list. ;)

Weetos
03-10-2010, 03:24 AM
LOL, this topic looks so much better after adding Jin to ignore list. ;)

LOL I bet it does ! I like most Jin's posts, and even if I do not always agree with him, his posts are often interesting (errr well most of the time) and nicely written , but man, he's a tad too talkative sometimes !

TeZzy
03-10-2010, 03:54 AM
Our company has core(2 of them). Haven't had the time to alpha...betatest or whatever the heck stage it is in, I still haven't heard one solid answer regarding what stage it is at. Strange isn't it?

Soth
03-10-2010, 03:59 AM
...try it, will take you 10 minutes to download and install! After 30 minutes of playing with it you will know much more that you will ever know from reading open forums.

*Pete*
03-10-2010, 04:11 AM
I know some old time good LW artists are participating and I'm confident they do have interesting things to share with the devs - Now I wonder if NT listens to them and if they do, to what extent ?

Hc is a less hostile enviroment than public forum, and the few (suprisingly few) issues we have with core have been dealt with quite well...

Now, since this is at alpha stage, many tools and functions have been placeholders and the intent always been to replace them.

It is difficult to know how much of the change between a placeholder and a more final version of a tool is nt's original plan, and how much is becouse of suggestions from hc.

Afaik the only thing im certain of getting over-ruled by hc is the navigation...today it is a very close copy to lw navigation.

So, hc has some power, but we cant always know where we managed to direct nt and where nt simply had the same plan early on.



I guess I'm too used to dozens half-baked tools that eventually never do the job you expect them to do, and that never get polished or unified - so this new way of handling software dev is kinda new to me, and I'm really hoping NT changed in that area - so I must admit I'm afraid to signup and then realize nothing changed.

Well, the latest build introduced tools that suggest that nt is not into making halfbaked tools anymore.

I think that core has an unfairly bad reputation here on the public forums, its not an disaster of an application and nt is not a bunch of dictatorial idiots who do what they do thanks to some fixed ideas.
My impression (which i dare say is the general impression in hc) is that core is definately moving to the right direction and that nt know what they are doing..

SBowie
03-10-2010, 05:11 AM
Man, can't a guy even grab a little shut-eye without y'all hacking away at each other. Three long pages with not much in them - sorry, that's my honest judgment.

I was actually enjoying a little playful banter with Jin (amazing, right?). I have repeatedly asked for evidence to support his long-standing allegations of the infamous 'cash grab' (a phrase always used in a pejorative sense, for those who might wonder why it is taken as insulting). After any number of Jin's responses, he has not brought forth a shred of evidence on which to base his contention. Instead, we get yet more repetition of the claim ('yebbut it was a cash grab' - hey, maybe if you keep repeating that, people will fail to notice the lack of evidence! :) ), along with a liberal helping of 'fanboy', and other derision. I don't know if these are meant to serve as a diversion or deliberate insult, but they were ineffectual at either, and certainly don't constitute evidence. If 'yebbut you're a fanboy spin-doctor, Brittany' is your 'proof', Jin, you might want to reconsider your gadfly pose. You haven't landed a glove ... seriously, dude, your argumentation (to be clear, not you personally, just your argumentation - I hold you in the highest personal regard) makes me think of the way little girls fight, lots of cute little patty-cake air slaps that never touch anyone. I'd honestly expected a better argument from you.

The facts are that NewTek is prospering, and no cash grab was required. This is evidenced by a number of visible signs: their having cheerfully started a project that they really didn't need to undertake at all (it would have been far easier to simply 'retire' LW and continue with other profitable priorities), a project which would certainly always have had to continue long past the period HC sales would fund, and their ongoing hiring campaign just being two. No way could anyone have ever thought HC sales would fund all that, and if they did (despite that being ridiculous to suggest) and it was failing, marketing would have been vigorously trying all along to con many more into a purchase (which clearly has not been the case). Also, all along it has been a case of 'value for pay', an everyday business transaction, nothing insidious about it. The 'value' wasn't entirely prepaid, either. For those buying for the first time or upgrading, delivery of tangible merchandise was immediate. In any case, all who chose to were able to begin use of paid for service immediately. The freely granted refunds also make it very clear that the project was not and is not dependent on money from the so-called cash grab.

I could go on, but I think this illustrates the point that my view (which no one needs to agree with, but which is my honest personal view, not any attempt at spin) at least conforms to observable facts - and ones that require no insider knowledge, or childish name-calling. You, however, Jin, have had to backwater to the point that your unsubstantiated argument now consists of 'yeah, it was a cash grab, but it so badly executed that it failed miserably, and that's why the facts can't be presented - Britanny.' Dude, you disappoint me.

As for the rest of y'all, what can I say - whether you agree with me, or think I'm an idiot or corporate lackey, kindly refrain from personal attacks on Jin .. even if you think he is baiting you, be 'bigger than that'. I'm not attacking him, I'm basically just saying 'put up or shut up' (not that I think either is really very likely) regarding his long-standing claim. When you put an obviously provocative statement out there, it can't be a surprise when someone eventually calls you on it, really I think that has been the whole game. That said, based on the responses so far, it seems pretty clear no substantial defense for the claim is forthcoming, so I'll likely get on with life - but hope springs eternal. :)

Weetos
03-10-2010, 05:51 AM
Hc is a less hostile enviroment than public forum, and the few (suprisingly few) issues we have with core have been dealt with quite well...

It's true I assumed this could have been like the open beta, but it seems the HC area is way more active and friendly than the OB, according to most you guys in HC ;)



Well, the latest build introduced tools that suggest that nt is not into making halfbaked tools anymore.

I think that core has an unfairly bad reputation here on the public forums, its not an disaster of an application and nt is not a bunch of dictatorial idiots who do what they do thanks to some fixed ideas.
My impression (which i dare say is the general impression in hc) is that core is definately moving to the right direction and that nt know what they are doing..

Really nice to hear that - I would have been worried about LW's future if there were doing the same mistakes all over again. Thanks again Pete for sharing your impression, this is much appreciated.

SBowie
03-10-2010, 06:25 AM
When does rudeness cross over to "unable to maintain responsible civil conversation with others" is obviously for the moderators to decide. Posters do have a responsibility to the community to remain civil.I want to respond to this (particularly since my prior urging re: civility might quite rightly provoke a round of 'yeah, but he started it'.) :)

The quoted remark is clearly correct on both scores. By this point, it doesn't matter who started it. I do not want to see this thread or anyone in it be subjected to moderation. This is a pretty tolerant forum, and constructive criticism is viewed as an asset. We understand passion, appreciate it, and do not expect it to always be favorable. That said, whether one is attacking what they perceive as the corporate view or defending it, and whether it is born of passion or playfulness, deliberately insulting language is destructive to both meaningful discourse and community.

It can be a difficult thing to discern when what might have started out as playful banter has mutated into something uglier. As evidenced by numerous complaints received overnight, in the minds of a number this thread crossed that line to some degree several times overnight. If it does so again, and regardless of where it comes from, it will be the last time. Please act accordingly, and limit discussion to the issues without stooping to insults.

Kuzey
03-10-2010, 07:15 AM
@ weetos & kuzey.

You are considering to get into core, but if you do, make sure you do it for the "right reasons".

Do not expect to see anything amazingly usefull or tools you just cant live without.

Understand that it is at alpha stage and that a lot will have to change before it will be usefull companion to lw.

Your initial reaction might be a disapointment.
But...a deeper look at core and its soon-to-be-future might well turn the disapointment into a positive emotion...core has a lot going for it, just not yet.
At v1.0 it should be usefull enough, even if not independant


Now, once in the hc, you will soon understand why nt wanted us in so early on.
We are important...nt needs us.
Lw is 2 apps, core will be 1 app...needless to say, things have to change.
We, in hc, work hard to help nt to keep the good stuff from lw.
Sometimes it is not so obvious what is good and if the new stuff is better not only on paper, but also in reality.

I have described workflows in modeler that i took as so natural that i never thought how important they are...you dont know what you have until you lose it...so, with core still at an early stage of development we have a good chance to help nt to shape core to include these features nobody ever thought of.

Im being intentionally vague, but im telling you...the feature i speak of is not something you would consider important, not until its changed to a more standard version, similiar to other apps.
(if Jay&Chuck is reading this, no...im not speaking about the eagle in a barrel, which is of course usefull, but not vital)

If you feel lw is comfortable for you and want to take part in shaping core into a equally comfortable app, please do join us.
But if you are looking for a production ready 3d app, you should wait.

When I was thinking of joining...leaving it to the last minute as usual before the offer expired, I thought LWHC was just Layout and that would have been ported before the final release....Jay did say it would be easy to to change a few lines to port it. So basically, you can model and render final images in Core but not do animation or not much of it. LayoutHC would still be there or better yet, it would be easy to export models from Core and animate in LW9.6.

The timing was bad as well, before 9.6 came out I asked for it to be delayed because the Mac side of things weren't ready. I tired to get them to take notice of the OpenGL related bugs I had on my 3 month on MacBook at the time. They said it was a problem with my computer and that was that....now of course they have run into those same OpenGL problems ( I hope they are the same and when they get them fixed...the issues on my MacBook would go away). Having said that, I haven't had a OpenGL related crash for almost a year.

Oddly enough, I'm getting the same crashes with the latest Blender 2.5 alpha2... but the very first Blender 2.5 alpha 0 was fine. I'm thinking code has changed somewhere and they are using the same OpenGL calls Newtek did :D

So, I'm the probably the last guy that should be in HC.

Kuzey

robertoortiz
03-10-2010, 07:34 AM
I want to respond to this (particularly since my prior urging re: civility might quite rightly provoke a round of 'yeah, but he started it'.) :) .

One of the things I LOVE about the HCR boards is that there is a mutual agreement that we should repect one another.
We have this crazy idea that people can disagree with us, but they deserve a chance to explain their positions.

The thing is that the HCR boards remind me a LOT of the way the open Newtek forums USED to be.

Kuzey
03-10-2010, 07:36 AM
With all this money grabbing talk...there seems to be some truth to it. At the very least...Newtek thinks about it before doing the right thing :)

Take the Mac 9.6.1 Cocoa port...at the start Newtek was thinking of making that a paid upgrade..it took some time before they did they right thing. I mean, the 64 bit Windows version wasn't an additional paid upgrade for PC folks.

Then there was talk of extending the Core release and we had a discussion about what that would mean. Would the HC subscription be extended too or would that be separate product...renewal is expected if one would want to continue with the process etc even though Core1 is not out.

The first time we talked about this, Cresshead was involved and a few of the other HC members as well. Newtek did not jump into that conversation and make any correction, because of that...I thought Newtek was thinking the idea over. The second time the topic came up, Steve jumped in...quick as a flash to make the correction :D

That's my impression of it...Newtek thinks about it, but it takes time to get to the right decision :D

Kuzey

Kuzey
03-10-2010, 07:43 AM
Money grabbing idea...the good version :hey:

I was thinking, are there plans to port Core VPR to other programs??

If it's one of the fastest out there...it should be ported to Maya, Max and what not. It could get non LW users into Core and get some money in Newtek's pockets as well :D

Would it be an easy port or not??

Kuzey

SBowie
03-10-2010, 07:51 AM
That's my impression of it...Newtek thinks about it, but it takes time to get to the right decision :DI think there's some truth to that. Nobody gets everything right, and reflecting on honest criticism is the right thing to do.

My own experience with NewTek over many years is that (while I certainly have not agreed with everything that has happened, and have at times made that abundantly clear) they really do make an honest effort to be fair, and often more than fair in the end. Of course, there will always be instances where someone feels a decision was unfair, or when the ball was really just plain dropped. It's much easier, imho, to resolve differences when things are pointed out without a lot of aggressive or provocative posturing - that only serves to polarize things.

Kuzey
03-10-2010, 08:12 AM
It's much easier, imho, to resolve differences when things are pointed out without a lot of aggressive or provocative posturing - that only serves to polarize things.

True, but provocation is a two way street...it can get on people's nerves when other people...keep on stating the obvious every page or two :D

I'm mean, to be told Core is in early stages...alpha/beta/unfinished/Wip etc. etc. all the time, can be provocative. I find it funny...that people constantly need to the tell me something I already know, but others can take it as a provocation...they could feel like they are being talked down to. And the result is 8 new pages popping up from nowhere.

btw....I'm speaking generally...not pointing any fingers at anybody...hehe

Kuzey

SBowie
03-10-2010, 08:18 AM
True, but provocation is a two way street...Agreed. (You could look long and hard and not find anywhere that I have encouraged people one way or the other on their decision.)

erikals
03-10-2010, 08:19 AM
the reason it was emphasized that Core was in early beta/ unfinished etc was because of the ongoing statements from some people that wanted heaven and glory on day 1.

that's all, no biggie.
those claims seem to have worn off.

Chuck
03-10-2010, 11:20 AM
With all this money grabbing talk...there seems to be some truth to it. At the very least...Newtek thinks about it before doing the right thing :)

Take the Mac 9.6.1 Cocoa port...at the start Newtek was thinking of making that a paid upgrade..it took some time before they did they right thing. I mean, the 64 bit Windows version wasn't an additional paid upgrade for PC folks.


Yes, given that we had otherwise finished the 9.x cycles and started on the next ordinal cycle, we did consider moving the Cocoa conversion (which included the 64-bit Mac version) into the next ordinal release. If we had, v9.6.1 could have been done and long since released with plenty of bugfixes, and we'd be concentrating on two development lines right now instead of three for now well over a year. Moving major projects from one ordinal to the next is not unusual, and resources and time to devote to it is a major reason.

The Windows 64-bit version was actually first demonstrated during the 7.5 cycle, but we were not able to release it during the 7.x cycles, and instead it shipped with the 8.x series, for example. With Cocoa, we were not even ready to demo it at the point the discussion as to whether it would be included in 9.x or not came up. But Apple had finally released a fully 64-bit OS, and it was finally possible to do a 64-bit Mac port. And Mac users were very, very anxious to have it in the v9.x series. So we went for it.

TeZzy
03-10-2010, 01:50 PM
Nah, unfortunately my license didn't get the upgrade. Actually none of our current license got an upgrade. We bought 2 new seats.

I know what you mean by try it myself but my point was that I shouldn't have to in order to know where it's at imho.

Stooch
03-10-2010, 11:11 PM
If CORE and HC was/is a cash-grab for NT, their policy stongly suggest otherwise.

:)

the simple retort to this point is that if newtek wanted to grow core and take advantage of user feedback, why force existing (and and loyal) customers to buy core for the priviledge of "shaping core for the future" when you can have some jackass who has no 3d experience at all, just buying lw9 also getting this chance to "shape core". but for free. hmmmm....

hmm.

yeah its cash grabbing. its obvious. its an anti EXISTING customer policy. of course IF you are a fan boy, you wont really mind or even care to look at it from my pov.
And that is why this argument really has no end. fanboys are like religious zealots. Only fire seems to offer a respite. Or, i guess you can just charge them to test your alpha for you.. lol.

On CG talk some people made the point that its "industry standard to charge for updates and give people free perks who buy old versions in the middle of the dev cycle". Afterall, if you always got free updates, you would never have to pay for them right? ... lol.... i laughed at that heartily.... From my pov - not being a fanboy - when i pay for a software update or an upgrade, i expect progress. Right now, im asked to pay for core, even though i own lightwave 9, but core isnt an update or an upgrade. its a pre alpha version that gives me absolutely nothing. 0. nada.

Also, considering that core will feature a subscription scheme, upgrades wont be the only revenue stream.

i wont take it to work with me, i wont make money with it. its a toy. its a toy that takes my time to test and give newtek feedback.
If the tool isnt ready for production ... newtek would need to pay me every day for my testing core for them, not the other way around.

spin this however you want. im being as reasonable as stooch is capable of being. its just plain common sense. I think its a push for me to really entertain other software packages, you know ive been really enjoying digging into xsi and houdini more. I figured, if im going to be dropping money and MOST importantly, if im going to invest my time - i might as well put it on something thats at least useable in production.
Some people are so funny. CG IS A BUSINESS... if you are here to make money and make a living, keep in mind that you are taking a risk. Even if core is a badass product, like XSI it needs market penetration.
It needs install base... or you wont be finding many jobs asking for your CORE experience.

i think that this is a dumb marketing move. i think that its not even really marketing, i suspect that they just needed to do a cash grab. a prudent but obvious tactic.
should have just asked for donations.

let me put it another way. If newtek was a publically traded company, the second I would have heard of CORE and its marketing premise, i would be getting rid of their stock.
market saturation... its what autodesk is masterful at. CORE seems to be continuing on the path of catering to a niche market of fanboys.
here is an idea, make a special gilded box, carved out of cherry wood or ebony, or some exotic imported hardwood, with embossed platinum letters "LW CORE - FANBOY EDITION".
it would truly resonate with the marketplace lol. all 10 customers.

cyatic
03-10-2010, 11:20 PM
I for one don't believe the "cash grab" theory. Newtek doesn't have a history of cash grabbing, if anything they have been quite generous to adopters/upgrades of Lightwave. I believe they've bundled Digital Fusion, Vue D'Esprit, LWCAD, and Fiber Factory, for free. In fact, I seem to recall in a post somewhere where Newtek offered to give people which bought Fiber Factory right before Newtek acquired it a free upgrade to HC/Core. Newtek does a lot of things they don't have to for its customers. I'll wait for Core to be complete before I sign on, but I don't think there's some big conspiracy going on.

Sekhar
03-10-2010, 11:21 PM
Right now, im asked to pay for core, even though i own lightwave 9, but core isnt an update or an upgrade. its a pre alpha version that gives me absolutely nothing....

i think that this is a dumb marketing move. i think that its not even really marketing, i suspect that they just needed to do a cash grab. a prudent but obvious tactic.

I guess the hope is that it *will* give you something when it's done. Would've worked out fine if only they gave us a roadmap upfront and stuck to the schedule.

Stooch
03-10-2010, 11:49 PM
I for one don't believe the "cash grab" theory. Newtek doesn't have a history of cash grabbing, if anything they have been quite generous to adopters/upgrades of Lightwave. I believe they've bundled Digital Fusion, Vue D'Esprit, LWCAD, and Fiber Factory, for free. In fact, I seem to recall in a post somewhere where Newtek offered to give people which bought Fiber Factory right before Newtek acquired it a free upgrade to HC/Core. Newtek does a lot of things they don't have to for its customers. I'll wait for Core to be complete before I sign on, but I don't think there's some big conspiracy going on.

hmm isnt that a good reason FOR having a cash grab? A lack of money because of "generosity"?

also your mentions about Digital Fusion, Vue D'Esprit, LWCAD, and Fiber Factory, are all kind of niche apps that i personally dont use that much and dont really offer much to a pro user who has many superior tools for the job. the version of VUE they bundled sucked balls too. and fiber factory wasnt finished... infact im not sure if its finished now. Fusion is dated too, nuke is where its at these days.

it seems to me that their previous generosity has cost them development capital that require bundling crap to appease irate customers A-LA autodesk bundling toxic when they couldnt meet their update target for maya. Most of the pros i know didnt even bother opening toxic HAHAHAAHAH. no one was asking for it.

but hey i guess our povs are just wildly divergent.

erikals
03-11-2010, 12:13 AM
If we had, v9.6.1 could have been done and long since released with plenty of bugfixes,...

FiberFX... (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106129&page=2) (cough!..)

\:0

Stooch
03-11-2010, 12:21 AM
wow, yall still on this topic.

if yall got all this time to keep talking about the same old thing, well

i could use some help in a few things since yall like wasting time
beating this dead topic beyond death.

:screwy:

if i could spend some of my time reducing your reliance on "YALL" - im all for it.

yall.

Stooch
03-11-2010, 12:23 AM
Yep - nothing tests the real level of someone's interest in something like asking them to pony up. It's called putting your money where your mouth is.

hi, that money was used to upgrade modo to 401. it was a no brainer when comparing the two similar expenses. Im not in their forums just gagging on luxology, i dont evangelise their software, just had some disposable cash and though, hmm... who is more deserving ... but i guess my "FILTER" was set to FAIL in newteks case. LOL whats even funnier is that i even upgraded messiah - which was also the same price.

Oh btw, it also greatly reduced the likelihood ill spend money on newtek products. Kind of makes me sit back and say... gee. you know autodesk has policies I dont like, but you know what, so does newtek, they all have something i dont like. So i decided to just spend more money for more product, no need to make it a personal thing. Luxology seems to have a better customer policy though. And thats ultimately why i decided to support them.

I wonder how your "filter" worked on others, who havent joined the little circle of friends. Personally im averse to joining some clique.
Also your attempts to downplay the core entry fee as insignificant are laughable. It seems to be enough for luxology to keep doing their updates... so it must be significant. Or maybe you just know that nt cant expect to charge more than luxology.

or... maybe it ended up being insignificant and a FAIL moment simply because people were still in tears after the launch video and couldnt see their monitor to type in their CC info.
Yes newtek has been making money, you just forgot to mention that it was selling video toasters - lol.

I just hope that the product you are championing will have a higher production quality than the CORE launch video.

erikals
03-11-2010, 12:38 AM
Oh btw, it also greatly reduced the likelihood ill spend money on newtek products.

....Noooo!!
please make it not so.

*Pete*
03-11-2010, 12:41 AM
stooch.
How many nt workers lost jobs becouse of the financial crisis?

Do you know of any projects cancelled at nt becouse of a lack of funds?

You try to give an impression that nt has ended up with losing money and desperately needed cash...fine, care to tell what is the base for this obsevation?

You never noticed that nt has been hiring/trying to hire new employees? Even if the rest of usa/western world went opposite direction and fired employees?

As with Jin, your argument for cash grab relies on a bad economy for nt...but everything suggests otherwise...even Jay himself tries to tell that hc does not fit everyone, and those who wanted have got refunded...


I think you are just trolling the thread. For some reason.

Btw...dont you think autodesk subscription policy and limitations for selling/refunding a product from them fits the term "cash grab" better?

Or are you too much of a ad-fanboy to admit it?

Stooch
03-11-2010, 12:45 AM
no, I never sell my 3d software so autodesks policy doesnt really bother me. I dont care about linux, OSX or transfering licenses between oses.
I dont care about international policies because im domestic. All i care about is results.

hey im just giving you my pov as i see it. at the end of the day im a customer and my perceptions are what drive my wallet. How newtek is doing financially can be summed up by the used newspapers and poorly cut out pieces of paper in an office max cd case that my official copy of LW came in the mail. So when i saw the proposal to pay for core just so that i could test it, the natural thought process points me to a money grab. and of course the employees of newtek would, in the best interest of newtek - deny this vehemently. Im glad that they got more people working though, like i said, results are the only thing i care about.

Seriously. Ghetto operation. The core launch video simply added more nuance to the taste.

as far as why im adding to this thread... well im waiting on a render. so i have some time to kill. i guess i could be alpha testing core, but im not fanboy enough.

erikals
03-11-2010, 12:54 AM
if you know a little about marketing you'll know that you can't read the company's state based on the newspaper info alone.

care to share that info btw?
too much loose talk.

*Pete*
03-11-2010, 01:08 AM
so, what you are saying is that ad cash grab doesnt bother you becouse you are happy with the product, wont sell your license and feel that the upgrades are worth the mandatory subscription fee.
So as such, its not a cash grab.


You define cash grab not on company policy or marketing but on end user satisfaction, if i get you right?

You didnt buy into core, so no cash grabbed from you.
I bought into core and im happy, so as a happy end user there is no cash grabbed from me either.

If i buy a big mac and feel unsatisfied, then im a victim of a cash grab?

Or do i misunderstand you?

Whose cash got grabbed and by who?

Stooch
03-11-2010, 01:24 AM
lol.

I dont know where you are going with this so ill let you play with yourself.

fact is that im making unfavorable decisions to newtek as a result of the actions described here.

If i am not satisfied with big macs, then i dont buy them. Autodesk delivers working software. Like i stated twice above... I only care about results.

*Pete*
03-11-2010, 01:32 AM
Erik..the box with lw was packaged using old newspapers...thats what stooch was saying.

Np for me, i got a shiny package from nt europe without newspapers...but i would not mind, its enviromentally friendly.

erikals
03-11-2010, 01:46 AM
oh, i thought he had some documentation, for once.

isn't that environmental friendly though? NT thinking green and all...
no, it's cheap! hah! :)
better to waste our money and pollute more.

zarti
03-11-2010, 01:47 AM
maybe some here would be happy to buy a product in another popular form:
get the product ( immediately usable ) then pay with rates.

OnlineRender
03-11-2010, 01:56 AM
I have Max once the sub finishes , that's me done with it ,ive probably spent more time in blender ! & LW is a trusty old friend that I know can do the job .........

Stooch
03-11-2010, 02:14 AM
oh, i thought he had some documentation, for once.

isn't that environmental friendly though? NT thinking green and all...
no, it's cheap! hah! :)
better to waste our money and pollute more.

oh i love environmentally sound products.

but seriously, an off the shelf CD case from office max, some shreded newspapers and some hand cut strips of 8 x 12 sheets with some instructions printed on them.... cmon. you can use recyclables but that was just straight up ghetto fabulous. It doesnt strike me like they are well equipped thats all. its nice to hear that they are expanding though and hiring more people, but again... untill i see results, my stance - a registered owner of lightwave 9, bought a couple of months off the end of the 9.6 beta - I wont pay to alpha test an unfinished piece of software. And the fact that late comers get a free ride just pisses me off. I definitelly resent fanboyism and the entire core approach just makes me wince, its so juvenile. like some high school clique.

ummm... looks like maya 2011 upgrade is in my shopping cart this year. Im sure core will be great in 4 years from now but if im expected to play by autodesk rules, i might as well play with autodesk. Since maya 2011 has a QT based GUI, ill be happily writing my own plugins in no time. No matter how great core is, i doubt they will catch up with maya, and 4 years from now, who knows, maybe newtek will just be a distant memory.

so yeah, thats just my pov. i dont really care about the background info or theories or speculation, im just a miffed customer calling it like i see it.

erikals
03-11-2010, 02:32 AM
Maya for modeling, texturing, HBD and rendering >blah.
but if you have Modo, i say Go! as Maya is still very good for most kinds of animation.

$3500 +expensive upgrades. it's ok, nothing more.


as far as NT and the "visual" part of the marketing, i'll skip commenting that, support is good though.

TeZzy
03-11-2010, 03:22 AM
just out of curiosity, if we have 9.6 and get additional seats.....is there suppose to be a discount? or was only a special?

Tartiflette
03-11-2010, 04:19 AM
ummm... looks like maya 2011 upgrade is in my shopping cart this year. Im sure core will be great in 4 years from now but if im expected to play by autodesk rules, i might as well play with autodesk. Since maya 2011 has a QT based GUI, ill be happily writing my own plugins in no time. No matter how great core is, i doubt they will catch up with maya, and 4 years from now, who knows, maybe newtek will just be a distant memory.
Great, enjoy maya then. :)
Bye, we'll miss you ! :D


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

hrgiger
03-11-2010, 04:29 AM
Stooch your position is perfectly reasonable but your simply wasting breath here. You need production ready software. CORE is not currently for you. End of story. Jay said it early on, the CORE membership is not for everyone.

I'm not sure why anyone bothers to defend CORE either at this point. We're all talking about software that's in its infancy and honestly it's a lot too early to praise it or bash it. I'm in CORE but I'll be relying on 9.6 (or LWHC) and Modo 401 for at least the next few years. I like seeing it develop and its starting to show its promise but it still has a long way to go to prove itself as far as production ready softrware.

Can't we talk about boobs or something?

*Pete*
03-11-2010, 04:33 AM
boobs?

Now that is what i call a "cash grab".

erikals
03-11-2010, 05:12 AM
sure,
http://vimeo.com/6966096

SBowie
03-11-2010, 05:41 AM
hi, that money was used to upgrade modo to 401 ... snip ...
I wonder how your "filter" worked on others, who havent joined the little circle of friends.I think it served reasonably well, actually. Some joined, some didn't, all good, big deal.

Some who didn't join (for whatever reasons) seem to feel the need to justify their decision with derision, characterizing everyone who did as simple-minded, suckers, fanboys, what have you. The fact is the HC crowd is quite diverse, and includes a nice selection of skilled pros from different disciplines. As for the rest, I hope you enjoy and benefit from your new purchases. I can't imagine why anyone would begrudge your decisions. Likewise, it seems neither worthwhile or reasonable to deride those who made different ones. That said, whether a customer or not, nothing wrong with conveying your opinion, so thanks for that.

jasonwestmas
03-11-2010, 07:54 AM
Seriously. Ghetto operation. The core launch video simply added more nuance to the taste.


That's a funny perception of Newtek. To be brutally honest my limited perception of Newtek is not the opposite of this but just different. What I see are some extremely intelligent software designers who don't understand Artists/Graphic designers or what drives them. A few of these employees do but really NT is a software development team at heart and they invest in software developers and scientists. So as a result the Newtek approach to selling Lightwave has been all verbal and strictly code based. Ironically the visual presentation has taken a backseat with Newtek in the past. Without the visual artisans in the LW community we would have moved on a long time ago imo. The move to take on Rob Powers is an indication that NT is starting to realize this.

SBowie
03-11-2010, 08:05 AM
The move to take on Rob Powers is an indication that NT is starting to realize this.Let's not overlook Jarrod or, addressing a slightly angle, Rex (whose products prior to being recruited were imho very polished by comparison with a lot of the competition).

jasonwestmas
03-11-2010, 08:13 AM
Let's not overlook Jarrod or, addressing a slightly angle, Rex (whose products prior to being recruited were imho very polished by comparison with a lot of the competition).

Sure, I'm not discounting anyone. But the key word I'm trying to express is "Backseat", as in the visual is not as important to Newtek as I think it should be.

SBowie
03-11-2010, 08:31 AM
But the key word I'm trying to express is "Backseat", as in the visual is not as important to Newtek as I think it should be.Understood. My own perceptions of trends and maybe what I would call 'atmosphere' at NewTek over the last couple of years have been in the nature of "movin' on up" ... remains to be seen to what degree and how it all plays out.

My personal feelings are mixed. It's something of a shift away from the imagery of 'the rebel alliance comprised of a ragtag bunch of clever but benevolent rascals', and I'd hate for us to become all 'corporate' and 'suity' .. but I suppose it's a fine balance, and no one will argue against professionalism and polish.

*Pete*
03-11-2010, 08:49 AM
That's a funny perception of Newtek. To be brutally honest my limited perception of Newtek is not the opposite of this but just different. What I see are some extremely intelligent software designers who don't understand Artists/Graphic designers or what drives them. A few of these employees do but really NT is a software development team at heart and they invest in software developers and scientists. So as a result the Newtek approach to selling Lightwave has been all verbal and strictly code based. Ironically the visual presentation has taken a backseat with Newtek in the past. Without the visual artisans in the LW community we would have moved on a long time ago imo. The move to take on Rob Powers is an indication that NT is starting to realize this.

i agree completely...my impression as well.

and again...this is exactly why HC is important...we are helping NT to shape CORE into something that WE would like to use, not only into a coders dream with the greatest features but which requires a coders mindset to use.

just looking at CORE where it is now...technically, VPR is a wild beast and i believe im safe to say its the fastest one out there (without knowing so much of what is out there)...this NT has achieved with just about no input from HC becouse it has little to do with artistic mindset...its just pure coding to harness the maximal amount of computing power, NT has a set of genious coders for this.

but when it comes to the little things that makes LW feel...intuitive, or immediate, as Splinegod put it, its not something that you just write code for...you have to look at it from a graphic artists point of view, not a coders point of view.

i think NT made a good decision to let people in this early to take part in shaping CORE into a coders-dream with intuitive-immeadiate feel on the workflow...if we will get there, nobody knows, but i prefer to be able to look at CORE from time to time and comment on the small things that coders might not think about.



this may be on the border of NDA breach...but the latest build of CORE has a theme preset that is made by Matt Gorner...
its just one of the things that illustrate that HC is taking a part in shaping CORE into a tool that WE feel good about using.

none of this is meant as criticism of NT...they are amazingly talented coders, which VPR so clearly illustrates (love that thing), but its we, the end-users who have over time developed workflows and speedy tricks and methods that has allowed us to compete with the big guys...as much of these workflows as possible should be put into CORE, and its not necessary that NT knows about how YOU prefer to work to build your stuff in LW.


for me, CORE and its early stage of development is a good thing...

SBowie
03-11-2010, 08:52 AM
this may be on the border of NDA breach...but the latest build of CORE has a theme preset that is made by Matt Gorner...Banned ... ;)


none of this is meant as criticism of NT...Pfft, no need for the caveat, NewTek isn't thin-skinned (but you're still banned).

:D

jasonwestmas
03-11-2010, 08:56 AM
Yeah, I'd say we are on the same page for the most part here. :) Thanks for the perspectives.