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VonBon
03-03-2010, 06:27 PM
im creating a character and for some parts of the mesh that aren't
deforming correctly i want to fix using morphs.

ok, what im thinking of doing is to Bend him in all the positions for bends
such as thighs, knees, and forearms inside layout and then saving
transformed object.

next open up both the original object and the transformed object in
modeler. Copy the transformed object into the background layer of the
original object.

next will be to use the [Bkgrnd to Morph] optin and then correct the areas
where need be for the bending areas.

What im thinking next is to copy the fixed morph for each individual morph
i will need for each area of bending to have seperate morphs for each.

then im thinking i can clear the map for the areas not need for each
specific morph.

is this the correct way?:help:

UnCommonGrafx
03-03-2010, 07:14 PM
It would definitely be one way. Painting weight maps would be another. And in layout would be yet another. The latter would be the preferred. To that end, find this tool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiBhni1wzuU&feature=related

VonBon
03-03-2010, 07:36 PM
thanks man, was wanting a little reassurance before i start
fixing the geometry.

Castius
03-03-2010, 08:28 PM
If your using weight maps with "Use Weight Map Only",. I would recommended you use modeler to make the joint morphs.
http://www.timaxmedia.com/html/help/Create_Joint_Morph_.htm

If you just using bones/joints without "Use Weight Map Only". You may want to try to using this new plugin. To make your morphs in layout.

http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=2490

Follow the same steps but do you're work in layout and use the save endomorph in layout. This will make/save morphs into your object. Then use joint morphe plus to control them.

http://www.joelertola.com/tutorials/joint/joint.html

SplineGod
03-03-2010, 11:18 PM
I would do it the way Castius mentioned in layout,
Pose the joint in its most extreme pose.
Save that as a morph in layout.
Use the tool Castius mentioned to now fix the joint
while in that extreme pose.
Save that as a morph.
Use the apply morph command (its a modeler tool that works in layout) to subtract out the first morph (-100).

ericsmith
03-04-2010, 09:34 AM
It's worth noting that the "edit mesh in layout" tool that Castius mentioned is Mac only.

Eric

SplineGod
03-04-2010, 10:59 AM
No, its running fine on my PC. :)

ericsmith
03-04-2010, 11:11 AM
Looks like you're right. It's hard to find things on pages like that, but I went back and there it was. Cool!

I remember when these plugins first hit the scene, there was a big hubbub because they were in fact mac only, which was pretty much a 180 from what usually happens...

Eric

SplineGod
03-04-2010, 11:22 AM
Very true. When I first saw it mentioned it was weird that it was Mac only but apparently he saw the light
I hate it when the Mac gets all the plugins before the PC does. :)

VonBon
03-05-2010, 11:13 AM
Do i have to use [create joint moprh] in modeler by moving a
skelegon, in order to have a joint morph move correctly with the motion
of the driving bone.

also when i use weightmap only with no morphs, my weight seems as if the bone is not pulling it

geothefaust
03-05-2010, 11:35 AM
Very true. When I first saw it mentioned it was weird that it was Mac only but apparently he saw the light
I hate it when the Mac gets all the plugins before the PC does. :)

I sent him an email with my limited Japanese language skills, and urged others to do the same. Luckily within about two weeks or so if I recall correctly, he had produced a PC version. Nice guy. :) I found out through him that in Japan, LW is licensed differently. You purchase the PC and mac versions separately... You don't get both with one dongle like in Europe and North America. Why... I don't know, kind of sucks.

But anyway, onto the use of said plugin!



The downside to this plugin, is that it works DOG SLOW on medium/large meshes in Layout. I did some weight mapping on a medium res character back in October for a client, I thought sweet... I can use that plugin. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way. After trying it out a number of times with different setups (ie, piecing out the mesh into smaller bits), I found it just wouldn't work as well as I thought it would. (ala XSI)


You can piece out your mesh into smaller bits (as noted above), pasting each part into a new layer in modeler, and then hiding the parts you're not weighting. This will yield some better OGL speed performance. So just a heads up, make sure you're prepared to do a little more leg work.


The live results in Layout with it are really, really nice once you can actually use it.

geothefaust
03-05-2010, 11:37 AM
also when i use weightmap only with no morphs, my weight seems as if the bone is not pulling it

Make sure the bone is using the weight in the bone properties, from the weight drop down list.

SplineGod
03-05-2010, 04:00 PM
You can also pull points in layout using editfx along with mdscanning and FIs minimo. :)

probiner
03-05-2010, 06:23 PM
You can also pull points in layout using editfx along with mdscanning and FIs minimo. :)
http://www.vfxcast.com/media/343/Point_Level_Control_in_Layout/ :thumbsup:

erikals
03-05-2010, 06:54 PM
just a test using the 3Dcel LayoutMeshEditTool...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSyCoEgB6oo

Mr Rid
03-05-2010, 07:02 PM
...find this tool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiBhni1wzuU&feature=related

FINALLY... painting bone influence in Modeler is about the most ludicrous thing in LW.

I still want to be able to edit weights as easily as I can textures (feather, position, copy&paste, animate, apply procedurals), like this demo I fauxed, in Layout-
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vdhydcn6me.mov

erikals
03-05-2010, 07:07 PM
another fun one,... 3Dcel WeightPaintTool (just a preview, i'm no rigger)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuHDOn35bVY

erikals
03-05-2010, 07:12 PM
Mr Rid, also check,... (modeler though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgfMTN4AnuU

lertola2
03-05-2010, 10:07 PM
The 3dcell Mesh Edit and Weight Paint tools look cool but I do not see how they help make joint morphs. I have not been able to find a better way to make joint morphs than to move points around on the morph in modeler and then switch to layout to see the results. It is a very tedious process. I looked into this a few months ago and I found out how to make an accurate joint morph if each point is associated 100% with a single weight map (http://www.joelertola.com/tutorials/joint/joint.html). But that is not a very practical way to set up bone weight maps for a full figure. I have tried the technique that SplineGod suggested earlier in this thread of of saving an endomorph of a bent joint, remodel a copy of the endomorph and then subtracting the original endomorph with the apply morph command at -100%. But I find that that only kind of works. Its not very accurate.

-Joe Lertola

erikals
03-06-2010, 12:02 AM
But I find that that only kind of works. Its not very accurate...
i noticed the deformation looks a bit funky when the lower arm is bent 45 degrees...
http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82897&stc=1&d=1267858912

RebelHill
03-06-2010, 04:41 AM
I tend to often forego morfs, tending instead to use multi bone bends at such joints. It creates more space for the joint and geometry to operate in, giving a better initial shape, which also makes adding moerfs on top simpler if needed.

Download and check out my rig from my sig, and see how the deform rig is setup on his knees to create space... same thing works just as well for other joints on the body.

lertola2
03-06-2010, 10:13 AM
RebelHill, I downloaded your rig and the knee does indeed bend nicely. I was puzzled by that for a while until I realized that you have a hidden more detailed set of bones that deforms the mesh. Very nice. I will have to try that. I am still not 100% clear on how you get the hidden bones to follow the visible bones though.

-Joe Lertola


I tend to often forego morfs, tending instead to use multi bone bends at such joints. It creates more space for the joint and geometry to operate in, giving a better initial shape, which also makes adding moerfs on top simpler if needed.

Download and check out my rig from my sig, and see how the deform rig is setup on his knees to create space... same thing works just as well for other joints on the body.

SplineGod
03-07-2010, 01:29 AM
Joe you might take a look at these two videos. They are simple demonstrations as to what can be done with bones.
http://www.vfxcast.com/media/326/Simple_Muscle_Bones_pt1/
http://www.vfxcast.com/media/335/Simple_Muscle_Bones_pt2/

Also rather then use joint morph Ill use cycler to use one or more endomorphs to do mucles or deformations. You can easily blend multple endomorphs to not only get the shapes you need but to get better control of how things morph based on a bones rotation for example.

lertola2
03-07-2010, 06:24 PM
Larry,

Thanks for the video links. They are a big help. Basically instead of creating a joint morph you sculpt the shape of the joint with hold bones. That makes a lot of sense since the joint morphs are so difficult to make. I will look into using cyclist also as that seems like it could be very useful. I really appreciate your help.

-Joe Lertola

Edit: Attached is an image of a joint using your technique. I put in a little bone to hold the outside elbow out and two bones in the inside to keep the joint from collapsing into a noodle as you showed in your videos. I also put in multiple bones to bend the elbow as RebelHill suggested.

Castius
03-07-2010, 07:30 PM
You don't apply negative morph. You unbend the bone/joint in layout before you save the endomorph.

erikals
03-07-2010, 09:27 PM
pretty nice. http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif
there's a little thing missing, one of the scenes/ muscles should climb up on a high angle.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82937&d=1268017617

lertola2
03-07-2010, 09:39 PM
You don't apply negative morph. You unbend the bone/joint in layout before you save the endomorph.

I do not know how that could work. You need to have the joint bent to save the endomorph. When you bring the edited endomorph back in from modeler it is bent double. When you unbend the joint it just brings the endomorph into its bent position. I tried unbending a test endomorph by completely bending the joint in the opposite direction but the endomorph was messed up (see attachment). I have tried lots of variations on this theme but I have not had any success creating endomorphs except by the method I have on my website or by moving points around on the morph in modeler and then switching to layout to see the effect. If you can show me how to make this work I would be grateful.

Thanks

erikals
03-07-2010, 09:43 PM
pretty nice. http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif
there's a little thing missing,
one of the scenes/ muscles should "climb up" the upper arm on a high angle.

just an image on it...
http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82940&stc=1&d=1268023407

SplineGod
03-07-2010, 09:44 PM
Thanks Joe,
Keep in mind that the additional bones can be controlled with expressions, cycler, cylist, channel follower, nodes etc. You can sculpt the response you want from those bones and attach the behavior to the channels of other bones or items. On top of all that you can also add weight maps and the newer bone deformation controls etc. :)

Castius
03-08-2010, 12:25 PM
Interesting lertola2
It works with jointMorph but not jointMorphPlus

I don't have time to look into why.