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erikals
03-03-2010, 04:42 AM
mornin'...

no, stress, just saw a Maxwell shader feature image, and was wondering if LW could make the same kind of thin SSS...
(just curious)

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82783&stc=1&d=1267616411

3DGFXStudios
03-03-2010, 04:52 AM
Isn't that just refraction blur?

Skywatcher_NT
03-03-2010, 05:01 AM
Yep.That's what it is:thumbsup:

Skywatcher_NT
03-03-2010, 05:22 AM
And another one.
82786

erikals
03-03-2010, 12:20 PM
sweet, will try this for some glasses : )
(and window frost)

Danner
03-03-2010, 01:32 PM
refraction blurring is slow, try the delta shader, lightning fast frosty glass

erikals
03-03-2010, 04:46 PM
hm, had an idea, wondering, could it then be used to speed up blurry reflections?

erikals
04-18-2010, 05:07 PM
refraction blurring is slow, try the delta shader, lightning fast frosty glass

Danner, do you have a bit more info on this?
i'm a totally nodes newbie... (still, after all these years)

Danner
04-19-2010, 02:12 PM
So am I really. but one day I was looking for a fast way to do refraction blurring on a scene I had with tons of transparent things and started experimenting with that node and was very impressed with it's speed in that particular scene.

To answer your post I started doing some tests today and I got some interesting results, but not much in the way of speed. It is kind of unstable so I got tired of messing with it today. So my previous post was misleading since it doesn't work on every situation, like I thought it did.

erikals
04-19-2010, 02:55 PM
heh, http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

true, one moment it works, another it doesn't...

i tested a bit doing it in post, the result is ok, (needs some more tweaks)
by rendering the object two times with a different surface and combining them in post, one should be able to remove the noise.
(this is basically aimed for animation though)

below is a .psd example of frosty glass.
should work as an animation sequence as well, with zero noise.

erikals
04-19-2010, 03:25 PM
will have to try this later on, see if it renders faster,...
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70038

adk
04-19-2010, 08:33 PM
... not sure if this is a handy tip or not but even tho refraction blurring is pretty slow & "fizzy" at low settings I have had quite good results with treating "fizz" in post with NeatVideo in either AE or Fusion. Just a simple test comparing raw LW & NeatVideo. AA is simply set to 2 with no AS or OS.

Image below is a blow up of a frame with alternating LW/NeatVid mask bands & vids speak for themselves.

erikals
04-19-2010, 09:29 PM
that's quite interesting indeed http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

i tested the demo, and it does a great job, however it does create ghosts and jumps.

i wonder, could you do me a favor? test to see if the full version works differently?
might also be that i did something wrong here,...

if it could work it would mean that it might work for blurry reflections too :]

probiner
04-19-2010, 09:48 PM
Heheh, i have no saying in this matter, just passed by to tell erikals his last videos look from a stop motion studio because of the GI splotches.

So there you go: GI splotched can be fun :D

adk
04-19-2010, 10:06 PM
that's quite interesting indeed http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

i tested the demo, and it does a great job, however it does create ghosts and jumps.

i wonder, could you do me a favor? test to see if the full version works differently?
might also be that i did something wrong here,...

if it could work it would mean that it might work for blurry reflections too :]

... yeah you're correct in that it does tend to create those tell tale signs.

Here's your test with just a few quick NeatVid settings. I reckon a mask for the SS object would really help in this case tho I realise it might not be that easy in a final comp in all cases. Not bad I reckon & a little better than your tests on first glance but you have a closer look & tell me what you think. Always glad to lend a hand :thumbsup:

First & last frames are always a no go zone for NV as well as you'd already know.

probiner - yep :) I do like that effect so am filing it away for future use

erikals
04-20-2010, 07:26 AM
probiner, the video is also 10fps http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/cool.gif

adk, Wow http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif
in your test the ghosting is basically gone on the object itself. Great!
like you say, it's just a matter of applying an alpha and fix it in post. (and notice i only have 10fps in this video, when rendering at 24fps it should be even better)

Super!
gotta try this on blurry reflections too! http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/hammer.gif

adk
04-20-2010, 12:10 PM
... no probs :thumbsup: erikals & yeah it works on blurry reflections quite well too from what I recall. Trick to seeing positive results from NV for this sort of thing is getting the right settings - which after hours of testing the plug when I got it turned out to be not what you'd expect. I'll save you some time in that regard perhaps & point you to what works well for me :)

From memory it does not work too well on scenes with high movement & things coming in & out of frame (then again not many things in post that calculate results based on surounding frames handle these scenarions well either). Plus I never tested those setups extensively with masks which would help quite a lot I think.

Time for more tests it seems :D

erikals
04-20-2010, 05:35 PM
solutions could be, http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

-render the images bigger for things coming in-out of the scene (see pict, with no black frame though)
-render fast movements, which will be blurred anyway, using only standard LW
-alternatively pump up the fps for better results (e.g. double fps)
-if the object has bumpmaps, add them in post (like this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1010025&postcount=10) technique)

adk
04-20-2010, 05:49 PM
solutions could be, http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

-render the images bigger for things coming in-out of the scene (see pict, with no black frame though)
-render fast movements, which will be blurred anyway, using only standard LW
-alternatively pump up the fps for better results (e.g. double fps)
-if the object has bumpmaps, add them in post (like this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1010025&postcount=10) technique)

gotcha on all those counts amigo :thumbsup: cheers for the tips. I love simple (if somewhat out of the box) solutions to these problems that really plague my work. Now I got to put some of that into practice one of these days.

...for some reason mediafire is acting up today otherwise I've got a few things for you to look over. Cypm chief :D

PS: That your render ? Or something you're aspiring towards ? :)

Hieron
12-03-2010, 06:44 AM
... yeah you're correct in that it does tend to create those tell tale signs.


Obviously, NV works best on reproducing patterns. So GI splotches like the example by Erikals is a worst nightmare for NV. You'd get better results just doing it non interpolated (if caching is not an options).

Best results are high frequency (both time and space domain) noise of repeating patterns. If first and last frames get dark, usually the sensitivity is set too high.

NeatVideo saved me countless rendering hours. It sure doesn't solve all issues but make sure:

-Don't use Adaptive Sampling *ever*: it blurs out the nice high frequency noise. And is often worse than just straight AA anyway
-Don't use interpolated Blurry Reflections
-Don't use interpolated, non cached GI.



Actually, with all this fuss about GPU rendering and it's inherent noise. NeatVideo + GPU rendering is an absolute perfect match...

erikals
12-03-2010, 07:17 AM
...Actually, with all this fuss about GPU rendering and it's inherent noise. NeatVideo + GPU rendering is an absolute perfect match...

guess why i bought Octane... ;]

Hieron
12-03-2010, 10:08 AM
:) Well, I thought about getting it as well, if only to try it out. Yet never had the time or project at hand. Projects either too big arch viz wise, or too medical/animated..

How are your experiences? They must work well together... got examples? I'd really be interested in a dirty quick Octane output -> after NV result..

erikals
12-03-2010, 05:44 PM
sorry, no examples right now, i did pull down some renders for youtube though,
the conclusion was that NV helped, but it depends on the scene.

i need to make some more tests...

i get the feeling the more details that are in the scene, the better NV works,
also it seems NV sometimes has problems with long straight lines.
i need to test more, i've had some awesome results using NV, but this was not one of them, strangely, as i though the Lamborghini scene i tested was more simple...

(the Octane render i tested... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9OX-bbM0VY)
(i'm not gonna test the result here though as i'm not happy about the result /i didn't test enough...)

erikals
12-03-2010, 05:47 PM
i did test this noisy LW scene though, (even though it's not Octane) and the result is super :]
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1078727&postcount=55

so again, i need to test Octane and NV more to see how good/bad the result actually is...

NV seems to make the best results on slow moving /rotating objects, but this is actually a BIG advantage, as slow moving objects requires way more frames /longer rendertimes, and also more details in general (no blur).