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Matte107
02-28-2010, 01:29 PM
What can I say, once again an amazing interview. Scheduled for an hour and a half still going on after 2 1/5 hours! This is amazing.

If you missed it you have to download it. (interesting core discussion at the end)

Thanks guys.

Simon

-FP-
02-28-2010, 02:00 PM
I just listened to this guy's Kurv webinar, and he essentially trashed the very existence of CORE. I don't really know anything about CORE, but it was funny.

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 02:03 PM
Yes, he's made it quite clear he wishes to keep Lightwave in the dark ages.

-FP-
02-28-2010, 02:03 PM
Kat essentially trashed the very existence of CORE. I don't really know anything about CORE, but it was funny.

Cageman
02-28-2010, 02:07 PM
yeah... a pitty really, but hey... if spaceships is the only thing one does, then I'm not sure you actually need anything more than what LW has to offer.

Kuzey
02-28-2010, 02:14 PM
Isn't Modo in the dark ages.......after all, it was born out of LW and to my understanding, is not a rewrite ??

I haven't seen it....but I think he might be freaking out because of the workflow changes...just a guess.

Kuzey

Cageman
02-28-2010, 02:16 PM
Yes... you COULD say that. It's too bad that Kat doesn't really understand the old codebase of LW. He makes it sound like you could do this and then do that and oila, it works just fine using this old codebase. Just.... sad.:bangwall:

Totaly agree... the sheer oversimplification he did was mindblowing to say the least. And, to be honest here, it seems to me that Kat is very focused on what he does and have done in CG, which as I understand is just... spaceship-stuff?

SBowie
02-28-2010, 02:20 PM
Guys, I didn't watch the webinar (though I'd like to), but I have to question the wisdom of bringing this discussion in here.

NewTek had the good grace to allow the event to be publicized in here, and some courtesy in return might be a reasonable expectation. Nevertheless, people are free to express views on pretty much any topic externally, subject to whatever editorial policy applies in the realm in question. I suppose it might be one thing to remark on issues raised, but it's quite another to make it personal, cast aspersions about someone's work, etc. I was torn as to whether to end both of these threads before they spin hopelessly out of control, and decided for the moment to restrain myself from interfering. Please act accordingly.

zarti
02-28-2010, 02:20 PM
if what you said above is true, FP, then Kelly as a professional has done 2 wrong things;

1] speak bad about the others work
2] premature speak

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 02:23 PM
yeah... a pitty really, but hey... if spaceships is the only thing one does, then I'm not sure you actually need anything more than what LW has to offer.
On the other hand, if you need results now then CORE has nothing to offer (obviously). Potential doesn't get shots out of the door.

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 02:23 PM
Easy tiger ! /\

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 02:24 PM
if what you said above is true, FP, then Kelly as a professional has done 2 wrong things;

1] speak bad about the others work
2] premature speak
But that's Kelly, and he also knows it ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Kuzey
02-28-2010, 02:27 PM
Well....that's not really here or there :D

I'm mean, if no one was concerned about it and didn't make any noise, then Newtek might think that a slower/complicated workflow equals best workflow.

Basically, the changes that do come to the workflow...would be a result of people saying something early and not waiting for the last minute to speak up :hey:

Kuzey

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 02:39 PM
On the other hand, if you need results now then CORE has nothing to offer (obviously). Potential doesn't get shots out of the door.

Cheers,
Mike

Nor is it supposed to at this point. He just seems to be wasting a lot of hate energy on something before it's merited. Sure, take some shots at Newtek marketing, but something still in development?:screwy:

Cageman
02-28-2010, 02:42 PM
Guys, I didn't watch the webinar (though I'd like to), but I have to question the wisdom of bringing this discussion in here.

NewTek had the good grace to allow the event to be publicized in here, and some courtesy in return might be a reasonable expectation. Nevertheless, people are free to express views on pretty much any topic externally, subject to whatever editorial policy applies in the realm in question. I suppose it might be one thing to remark on issues raised, but it's quite another to make it personal, cast aspersions about someone's work, etc. I was torn as to whether to end both of these threads before they spin hopelessly out of control, and decided for the moment to restrain myself from interfering. Please act accordingly.

My comment was not meant as a downer towards Kellys work; BSG looks awesome!!!

Rather, my comment was reffering to the limited scope of work he seems to have been involved with, and therefore can not see why CORE is being developed in the first place.

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 02:42 PM
In Kelly's defence "not that I like to stand up for him " : since this thread will probably go like every other feken thread on this board and you all will end up bashing on each other I will give my opp , since I was there .

Not once did he slander or show un-towards CORE or NT : he may have raised some problematic issues and gave , I quote " his opinion " but not once did he bring NT/ CORE into disrepute .
" granted he says what he likes and some of it may have been cutting on the bone but 8 /10 times he’s on the money "
he showed how powerful and how successful LW can or could be . moreover he probably turned several Maya user into what you would CALL LW FANBOYS ....
in-turn probably LW’s best piece of advertising in the last few months ...

my2cents before the thread gets closed . . .

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 02:43 PM
Sure, take some shots at Newtek marketing, but something still in development?:screwy:
If you don't like the direction it seems to be heading, why not?

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 02:44 PM
Rather, my comment was reffering to the limited scope of work he seems to have been involved with, and therefore can not see why CORE is being developed in the first place.
Actually, he did say that he's not against a re-write if needed.

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
02-28-2010, 02:48 PM
My comment was not meant as a downer towards Kellys work; BSG looks awesome!!!Thanks for clarifying. I did see several ways to look at the remark, but nuances are easily missed and the results can be ... shall we say, undesirably 'toasty'? No harm, no foul.

Now, the big question is, why aren't you all watching the hockey game?

Kuzey
02-28-2010, 02:51 PM
In Kelly's defence "not that I like to stand up for him " : since this thread will probably go like every other feken thread on this board and you all will end up bashing on each other I will give my opp , since I was there .

Not once did he slander or show un-towards CORE or NT : he may have raised some problematic issues and gave , I quote " his opinion " but not once did he bring NT/ CORE into disrepute .
" granted he says what he likes and some of it may have been cutting on the bone but 8 /10 times hes on the money "
he showed how powerful and how successful LW can or could be . moreover he probably turned several Maya user into what you would CALL LW FANBOYS ....
in-turn probably LWs best piece of advertising in the last few months ...

my2cents before the thread gets closed . . .

That doesn't sound too bad to me...people seem to be getting over excited.....thread closed in 10...9...8..

Kuzey

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 02:51 PM
Now, the big question is, why aren't you all watching the hockey game?
Because it's the break before the last third?

Cheers,
Mike

mikala
02-28-2010, 02:51 PM
You and your hockey :)

Cageman
02-28-2010, 02:51 PM
Actually, he did say that he's not against a re-write if needed.

Cheers,
Mike

And then... the 100 billion question is; what the heck is he talking about then? Just pulling words out of a hat?

MrWyatt
02-28-2010, 02:51 PM
Now, the big question is, why aren't you all watching the hockey game?

cause hockey sucks.
:D
http://images6.cafepress.com/product/315924056v1_480x480_Front_Color-White.jpg

Kuzey
02-28-2010, 02:52 PM
cause hockey sucks.
:D


Priceless !!!!


Kuzey

SBowie
02-28-2010, 02:54 PM
Wow. I am stunned. (Gotta go, 3rd period , c'ya!)

djlithium
02-28-2010, 02:57 PM
Look guys, thanks for attending the webinar. It's fun to talk about BSG, and how we made the show.
As for "space stuff" being what I do, yah sure I do space stuff. Nothing wrong with that. It got me a peabody and an emmy cert.
I do the work that comes through the door and if its space stuff, so be it!
I have done creature features, industrial video, space stuff, but I am not a character animator. So I do what I do.
Now as for my critique of CORE, have you guys noticed that in the latest video from NewTek its titled at the start "Lightwave with CORE Technology"?
And not billed as being Lightwave CORE?
Interesting.

Now then, as I said in the interview - I am not against a new code base, rather I am against blowing away what makes Lightwave, well... Lightwave in favor of a new code base and using the "old code base" as an excuse to dump this core thing on us and then told to suck on it... well that pisses me off.
Frankly LW Classic has a lot of life left to it, but I feel there is a significant lack of understanding by marketing and the development team as to what their end goal product should be while retaining the essence of Lightwave throughout the process arriving at a product that is largely transparent in terms of transition from one program to the next.

And for you detractors out there I find it interesting that its the same couple of guys who have their head in the sand as apposed to the "dark ages" about what Lightwave is and why, even with the combined death blows of autodesk, and newteks own lack of understanding how to continue develop lightwave - that is survives to day - Ask yourself this question, why is it still alive to day with all that factored in and then look at CORE and you will find that CORE will kill off what makes lightwave great and loose out on 20 years of history and opportunity built up and then flushed away - all for what? An application that will take another 5 years before its mature because its gone down a path that regular LW people like me clearly see as being incorrect?? All I am saying is look at the bigger picture here. Get away from the "tech spec" sheet for a moment and look at why LW is so fast, and you will see its not about code base, its about methodology and mentality of Lightwave that gets artists into a workflow that makes sense to them, not some coder who hasn't produced shot after shot after shot with a producer hanging over their shoulder saying "when's it done, how long are the renders going to take, you can't go home unless you get this finished, you're fired unless you get this done".

And that is all I have to say about that. For now.

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 02:57 PM
Wow. I am stunned. (Gotta go, 3rd period , c'ya!)

heard that before ! :D

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 02:59 PM
And then... the 100 billion question is; what the heck is he talking about then? Just pulling words out of a hat?
He's looked at what there is now and extrapolated. Just like everybody else has (who's a member of HC that is).
And opinions vary.

Cheers,
Mike

tuomas
02-28-2010, 02:59 PM
Yes, he's made it quite clear he wishes to keep Lightwave in the dark ages.
Not what he said. The point that Kat and others have been trying to push, and which I agree with, is that from what we've seen, NT is dropping a lot of things that make LW the reliable workhorse it has been and still is.

But this really is a discussion that should take place in the Core forums.

EDIT: Slow me, twenty posts appeared when I was typing and doing other stuff :D

djlithium
02-28-2010, 03:00 PM
I also am right down town in this olympic nightmare here in vancouver and I really hope the USA wins tonight. 1. I can get some sleep, and 2. the canadians can suck on it for a while. I am sick of the america bashing in this country, its borderline nazi-facism. And its totally un-canadian and they don't even realize it.

mikala
02-28-2010, 03:01 PM
Wow. I am stunned. (Gotta go, 3rd period , c'ya!)
Are you ever lucky the gounch was just set on stun:devil:

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 03:02 PM
I also am right down town in this olympic nightmare here in vancouver and I really hope the USA wins tonight.
Sorry, no-go. Then they'd have as many gold medals as we do - and I can't let that happen ;)

Cheers,
Mike

mikala
02-28-2010, 03:05 PM
I also am right down town in this olympic nightmare here in vancouver and I really hope the USA wins tonight. 1. I can get some sleep, and 2. the canadians can suck on it for a while. I am sick of the america bashing in this country, its borderline nazi-facism. And its totally un-canadian and they don't even realize it.
Funny as at least we can wear our flag when we go abroad.

SBowie
02-28-2010, 03:10 PM
And its totally un-canadian and they don't even realize it.Well, fwiw, I think the US and Canadian teams are quite well matched, and both have played very well. (For that matter, so did the Slovaks. I was pleased to see one of the Canadian players remark later on that and say 'they totally earned the right to be here.')

I think either of the remaining teams could win on any given day, and am just happy to see a nice fast game that isn't interrupted by dozens of stupid penalties.

Matt
02-28-2010, 03:11 PM
Bummer, I totally forgot about this webcast as I've been created a bunch of video tutorials for Kray!

Cageman
02-28-2010, 03:13 PM
Look guys, thanks for attending the webinar. It's fun to talk about BSG, and how we made the show.
As for "space stuff" being what I do, yah sure I do space stuff. Nothing wrong with that. It got me a peabody and an emmy cert.
I do the work that comes through the door and if its space stuff, so be it!
I have done creature features, industrial video, space stuff, but I am not a character animator. So I do what I do.
Now as for my critique of CORE, have you guys noticed that in the latest video from NewTek its titled at the start "Lightwave with CORE Technology"?
And not billed as being Lightwave CORE?
Interesting.

Now then, as I said in the interview - I am not against a new code base, rather I am against blowing away what makes Lightwave, well... Lightwave in favor of a new code base and using the "old code base" as an excuse to dump this core thing on us and then told to suck on it... well that pisses me off.
Frankly LW Classic has a lot of life left to it, but I feel there is a significant lack of understanding by marketing and the development team as to what their end goal product should be while retaining the essence of Lightwave throughout the process arriving at a product that is largely transparent in terms of transition from one program to the next.

And for you detractors out there I find it interesting that its the same couple of guys who have their head in the sand as apposed to the "dark ages" about what Lightwave is and why, even with the combined death blows of autodesk, and newteks own lack of understanding how to continue develop lightwave - that is survives to day - Ask yourself this question, why is it still alive to day with all that factored in and then look at CORE and you will find that CORE will kill off what makes lightwave great and loose out on 20 years of history and opportunity built up and then flushed away - all for what? An application that will take another 5 years before its mature because its gone down a path that regular LW people like me clearly see as being incorrect?? All I am saying is look at the bigger picture here. Get away from the "tech spec" sheet for a moment and look at why LW is so fast, and you will see its not about code base, its about methodology and mentality of Lightwave that gets artists into a workflow that makes sense to them, not some coder who hasn't produced shot after shot after shot with a producer hanging over their shoulder saying "when's it done, how long are the renders going to take, you can't go home unless you get this finished, you're fired unless you get this done".

And that is all I have to say about that. For now.

To this, I can only respond with the fact that I am one of two people (out of over 120 in total) where I work that makes use of LW on daily basis (alongside Maya and Motionbuilder), and I know very well the strengths and weaknesses of it. However, since I do work with very talanted people who use other applications, I also see and learn about strenghts and weaknesses of other applications as well. With all this in mind, and looking at what CORE eventually may end up like, all I can say is that I'm very positive about it, especially after the latest newsletter where you can read about the goals for CORE (as in familiarity with LW).

And this is the interresting part... since day one, the devs have said that they want to keep what is good with LW... they have never said anything else, really. The issue, however, is that this work can only begin when allowed to (related to the development of many things). But you, and some others, have jumped the gun way to early, imho.

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 03:15 PM
Bummer, I totally forgot about this webcast as I've been created a bunch of video tutorials for Kray!

nice PLUG Matt : come on 3 more posts and you join the mile high club .....

U CAN DO ITTTTTTTTTT

Dexter2999
02-28-2010, 03:24 PM
Nothing new here.

Kelly is in the same camp as Larry when it comes to LW. He is a person who makes his living with it. Radical changes aren't conducive to reliable stable workflow resulting in a stable work environment. Why reinvent the wheel? Why fix what isn't broken? Why not fix what is broken? We've heard the arguments. If you are standing in their shoes they are valid.

On Newtek's side, they want to increase market share. Kids today want a slick interface and are addicted to animated menus and icons. They aren't looking at LW except at a price point...and to be honest a great many of them are just using warez. Newtek is taking some load off the design by incorperating some outside standards in reguards to interface and physics. They are expanding developer abilities and customization. Combining the applications.

Will it be a complete app. at 1.0? Nope. And they never claimed different.
Is that frustrating to alot of people? Yep.

Move along people. Nothing new here.

Cageman
02-28-2010, 04:04 PM
Sorry, disagree with that. The WORKFLOW in CORE isn't finalized. Newtek has said as much. What is being tested are the TOOLS in that workflow. How many times (countless) has Newtek said that the LW workflow will be there - it's just a matter of time. Just because it's not here NOW is why Larry and Kat have been bellyaching like crazy. Instead of CALMLY telling Newtek that they REALLY want the old LW workflow - they constantly and consistently harass and belabor every point until they are red in the face. BEFORE you start dissing a product, it would be VERY wise to wait until it ships and IN THE MEANTIME tell Newtek (without being rude) that they want the old workflow to survive the transition.

It's not that difficult. I sincerely doubt that Newtek wants to screw over the current user base in favor of gaining market share. It doesn't take a great mind to see this, but it certainly would be nice if some people would refrain from idiotic statements like Core sucks.

As important as the LW-feel to CORE is to many, one have to think about the fact that CORE is a new architecture that deals with alot of things differently (for a good reason, I might add), and this will cause the LW-feel to not be there from start, because it is impossible to implement it early on based on many different things related to developement. Once things are in place, adding an LW-like workflow should, in most cases, be quite easy. At least, this is my understanding. Also, worth mentioning, is the importance to appeal to people outside LW-community. I believe there are many disgruntled XSI/Maya/3DS Max users out there who could possibly consider to use CORE if it can be customized to operate as similar as possible to their way of working and thinking (not to forget about the scripting capabilities already avaliable in CORE). One can argue that CORE v1.0 will not bring any outsiders to LW, so why put the effort in? Well, I believe it is important to be able to show how CORE can be customized, because that thing alone can be important to keep people interrested in following its development towards a fully fledged application.

Despite the fact that I have showed off some pretty cool stuff in LW for my team-mates, non of them are really interrested in learning it. True, they are surprised that I can do the things I do in LW, but they are still not interrested. However, CORE, on the other hand, has caught their interrest.

Anyhow... This is getting long, but I think it is important to let people outside HC know that there are different oppinoins about CORE, and it is quite unfair that, mostly, only one side of it is broadcasted through these Webinars (Rob Powers interview excluded).

Cheers!

:)

Dexter2999
02-28-2010, 04:07 PM
It doesn't matter. It isn't finalized and until it is a complete app the workflow propbably wont be written in stone. So to a professional it doesn't fly as a part of a working pipeline.

As for being calm about it, if my job was on the line I think I might go off just a bit myself. My job isn't on the line so I can sit here and try to understand both sides.

Soth
02-28-2010, 04:08 PM
Yes, he's made it quite clear he wishes to keep Lightwave in the dark ages.

This guy recommended that LightWave should not be sold in China and India to save jobs in US/Canada/whatewer... he still might be in dark ages.

Soth
02-28-2010, 04:22 PM
Kat essentially trashed the very existence of CORE.
...and 3D artists in China and India... that was not so much funny.

silviotoledo
02-28-2010, 04:27 PM
OK, let's take a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CORE needs minimal more 1 year to be "completed" ( if you're not a CORE member and can use it as beta )


Go home everybody!


Let's go to work with the tools we have now! And give the Newtek team time to work.

Dexter2999
02-28-2010, 05:01 PM
I know what CORE is. I'm not a hater. I am also not a "fanboy". CORE is trying to act more like other apps to attract market share. I'm not faulting Newtek for that. IT MAKES SENSE. I get it!

I'm also trying to understand the position of users who aren't enamoured of the direction things have taken thus far. Their view is "Why start over? just fix it?" Newtek's view is more like "It's more work to fix than to just start over. If we have to put in that much work why not make something new and better?"

Just because someone makes statements that are made from frustration and fear that appear ludicrous from a rational standpoint, there is no need to kick into fanboy mode to take up the opposing point. People can say things that are wildly innapropriate or exagerated when they are passionate about something.

There is no need to respond with comments like them wanting to keep things in the "dark ages". You call it "dark ages" they call it "working". All namecalling and confrontational responses lead to is escalated flame wars and threads being locked rather than rational discourse.

Two sides to every story man, and the truth is in the middle.

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 05:02 PM
...and 3D artists in China and India... that was not so much funny.



Soth ur a good dude and I can understand why you may be annoyed at this issue , but for the people who were not at the webinar this may seem a little out of context and somewhat derogative and maybe misleading ;

his point in question , was that work was getting sent overseas "nothing wrong with that " that's like me going to Canada to work . but was exploiting cheap underpaid labour . in which allot of software is not legit ,oui ? .

Megalodon :you can defend professional integrity to a certain extent , some people are very good at biting there tongue and some are not (kat is the latter ) for years he / others have given LW a good solid track record and proved that this is the software to use. So may feel that they have been cheated and divided .

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 05:06 PM
"If we have to put in that much work why not make something new and better?"
Actually, I'd venture out and say that everybody would agree on this (it's general enough as well).

Cheers,
Mike

djlithium
02-28-2010, 05:07 PM
Competely agree! :thumbsup:


???

CORE isn't supposed to be part of a professional pipeline RIGHT NOW. It's a work in progress.

And THAT is the point. You don't go all "I hate CORE and everything CORE" BEFORE the workflow that they hold so dear is finalized. To do so BEFORE this is finished is completely idiotic. Making your desires for the workflow known is NOT the issue. How you do it and how nasty your ewffort, IS.

Then what the hell is the point of announcing it and putting it into a paid beta? Why in the world would you pretty much cease any useful development of an application in the here and now, alienating users of it in favor of building something no one who uses the old version wants, or is willing to sit here and suck on it for 3-5 years (thats realistic and those are not my time frame quotes thats someone elses) to get that app into a state of usability by anyone?
Dum dum and dumber

You know whats going to happen? I will tell you, its the same thing you are doing now about "I want this in CORE because its in XSI or Maya."

You are going to get this CORE thing and then start *****ing about "well in lightwave I used to be able to do this". That's really useful. 3 years from now. I am doing it now, so we can shave off those 3 years and maybe get there in 2 instead.
Are you guys that dense as to what I am trying to say? Why, as it was put earlier is it required to re-invent the wheel when the wheel was just fine, it was the engine which I never want to touch - that was the problem. I'm a driver, not a mechanic. I don't want CORE, and a bunch of geeking out techspec crap and have to touch a line of code ever to run my 3D software.

You don't write work flow into a program last you do IT FIRST as part of the technical design document. F!CK... smarten up you guys.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 05:12 PM
Yes... you COULD say that. It's too bad that Kat doesn't really understand the old codebase of LW. He makes it sound like you could do this and then do that and oila, it works just fine using this old codebase. Just.... sad.:bangwall:

I actually understand a lot of it. Code is code man. It's the implementation that makes the difference and with NT's track record its pretty clear to see where things went wonky.

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 05:12 PM
I was at the webinar and I thought Kat was extremely Pro-Lightwave. I think his comments about LW would convince anyone to use it. I also agree that his comments are being taken out of context because those countries tend to have little respect for copyright laws and have no problem with creating studios around cracked copies of software or leaking intellectual property. I know this firsthand from seeing a ton of the training material myself and others have produced also pirated.
What I find strange is that everytime I hear how bad the current codebase is I see a3rd party developer like Mike Wolf or DPont come out with some pretty amazing things so Im scratching my head a bit here.
Also, Kat is very very bad...bad for developing bakudan, bad for using LW to do BSG...BAD Kat! :)

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 05:15 PM
I know this firsthand from seeing a ton of the training material myself and others have produced also pirated.


I'm working on it ! ! ! ! ! !

djlithium
02-28-2010, 05:16 PM
Really? I didn't catch that. That's as bad as him writing Core Sucks at the end of one webinar. Don't these people realize this reflects on their professionalism? :screwy:


And why are you constantly slagging me with this stuff? How is that for "professionalism"?

You know what I have found in my 15+ years of doing this? Whenever someone accuses someone else of not being "professional" that accusation is usually thrown out there as way to deflect critique away from themselves or pile on as a distraction.
Your comments are in effect both.
What is the justification behind the interface and terminology going so far off track from Lightwave? If you say code base, I know I am dealing with a net troll. If you say "market requirements" then I know you are ignorant of what LW is. LW has no market outside of Lightwave, CORE is going to KILL that market. So how do you justify that? The old code sucked? So were are going to double wammy it now by building new code and then throwing on an interface and make it look like something else and missing the mark completely??
It's braindamaged man... braindamaged.

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 05:17 PM
Competely agree! :thumbsup:


nd THAT is the point. You don't go all "I hate CORE and everything CORE" BEFORE the workflow that they hold so dear is finalized. To do so BEFORE this is finished is completely idiotic. Making your desires for the workflow known is NOT the issue. How you do it and how nasty your ewffort, IS.

Ive always thought that the workflow, UI, etc should be defined far in advance of the technical specs. There should have been mockups of the UI, navigation etc long before any code.
The artist should be the first thing considered when making technical decisions because its the list of requirements/needs of the artists that should be driving the technical specs.

*Pete*
02-28-2010, 05:18 PM
Get away from the "tech spec" sheet for a moment and look at why LW is so fast, and you will see its not about code base, its about methodology and mentality of Lightwave that gets artists into a workflow that makes sense to them

completely agree.

but this doesnt mean that it wont be possible to add the methology and mentality into CORE.

im not sure if you are in HC or not, but if you are...you must have noticed that the first builds were VERY different to LW...in just about everything, and now, the more recent builds add more and more of that LW feel in it...the small things, such as navigation are getting overhauled thanks to the input of (among others) those members who seem as blind defenders of LW.

we all want to head the same direction...personally i see a great future for CORE, partly becouse of the techsheet (which promises a huge potential) and partly becouse NT and we, the Lightwavers, are involved in shaping it.

wouldnt you prefer to have the power of the big apps, coupled with the ease and speed of LW?



in your video, you pointed at some things that should be changed, and i agree...but, they are all from your point of view...i have also a number of things id like to see improved, among others native instancing, sculpting tools and what not...and then there are others, who use LW differently than you and me who have their own specific needs...and the list of things needed to LW just becomes massive.


now...some things are just impossible to add to LW without significant amount of work, if it is at all possible...the things you pointed out (scene editor, values for light intensity) should be easily fixed and this perhaps gives you a point of view that LW has not reached its limits yet.

but for others, who have needs that LW just cant cope with, CORE is an absolute necessity.



anyway...it is sad that this turned out into a fight, i enjoyed the webinar.

thanks for your time and my condoleanses for your loss (hockey).

shrox
02-28-2010, 05:19 PM
...The artist should be the first thing considered when making technical decisions because its the list of requirements/needs of the artists that should be driving the technical specs.

I would like to join your cult of art, logic and reason. Do you have a brochure?

djlithium
02-28-2010, 05:20 PM
I was at the webinar and I thought Kat was extremely Pro-Lightwave. I think his comments about LW would convince anyone to use it. I also agree that his comments are being taken out of context because those countries tend to have little respect for copyright laws and have no problem with creating studios around cracked copies of software or leaking intellectual property. I know this firsthand from seeing a ton of the training material myself and others have produced also pirated.
What I find strange is that everytime I hear how bad the current codebase is I see a3rd party developer like Mike Wolf or DPont come out with some pretty amazing things so Im scratching my head a bit here.
Also, Kat is very very bad...bad for developing bakudan, bad for using LW to do BSG...BAD Kat! :)

Yeah I am just so fscking evil for holding onto the dark ages... :P:cat: Bad Kat!

And if you guys are all in there at these shops surrounded by all these other app users, what have you done lately to show off Lightwave to them? how many people have you showed some of the functions of LW that are so brilliant in comparison to XSI for example (lw's nodal system runs circles around XSI) lately at your shop?
I know larry did it a few days ago with a hardcore XSI guy and now he's getting lightwave. I get students here to check out lightwave any time I talk to them on the street who go to the VFS or where ever. Why are you not getting these people on board?

Because you are too busy crapping all over us. The same 3 guys you are.
what, do you tag team over there?

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 05:23 PM
Shrox,
We do require the drinking of a special koolaid from time to time. :)

shrox
02-28-2010, 05:26 PM
Shrox,
We do require the drinking of a special koolaid from time to time. :)

What color? Isn't not from those anodized aluminum cups is it?

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 05:29 PM
And THERE you have it - YOU'VE always thought.... YOU are not the programmers working on LW. Have you not read what Chuck and Jay have written about the workflow issues? Or do you just prefer to essentially call them liars and that this LW workflow won't happen? Just because YOU think it should happen at the early stages rather than the later stages is very sad. Things must go YOUR way or they aren't right? Rethink it Larry - seriously... rethink it.

I have thought it thru. The basis for my comments come from long years of production experience as well as being involved with development. Every developer I know and most books Ive read about modern development revolve around the needs of the artists/end users as the driving force behind the development specs. Otherwise its like building a factory before knowing what exactly needs to be manufactored. Sure it can be done but its more costly in the long run as opposed to fleshing it all out in advance from the consumers standpoint not from the standpoint of an engineer who has or never will use it production. This is especially true when none of the dev team has used LW in production so its important to spend some of that 3+ years design time taking into acct the end users/artists.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 05:29 PM
Totaly agree... the sheer oversimplification he did was mindblowing to say the least. And, to be honest here, it seems to me that Kat is very focused on what he does and have done in CG, which as I understand is just... spaceship-stuff?

And once again get off the "old code base" crap... its a dead horse and it doesn't fly any more. It could be java, I don't care. So long as its LIGHTWAVE! not maya jr or jonaswave.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 05:34 PM
What I find strange is that everytime I hear how bad the current codebase is I see a3rd party developer like Mike Wolf or DPont come out with some pretty amazing things so Im scratching my head a bit here.

Thanks for the mention. We're outside of HC, so I won't post as much as I'd like to. But, in general, third parties have one advantage - focus.
For two reasons: We usually specialize and only a few of us (way less than a handful) actually leave from developing plugins alone (if at all) - so there's no pressure to rush things out.
So, in the end it's really just one thing: Time. More of it. Which is (incidentally) why the announced delay for Core is nothing but a good thing.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 05:37 PM
This is especially true when none of the dev team has used LW in production...
Actually, two to four have from what I've gathered.

Cheers,
Mike

shrox
02-28-2010, 05:42 PM
I have a phone. Only it's external features matter to me, placement of the buttons, clarity of the speaker and microphone, battery life. If it was run by miniaturized gerbil-cyborgs in exercise wheels, it wouldn't matter to me, just so it works like I need it to work.

If it was a shovel, spikes through the handle would ensure a good grip in the design phase, but it would be painful for the end user in the production model.

Making the software user friendly seems like a no-brainer to me.

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 05:43 PM
Well to be honest its your stuff, Dponts and a couple of others that allow me to continue using LW.
The focus should be to add tools into the current LW to allow us to do more, extend it and to play better with other apps.
Is the current SDK really THAT bad and if so how is that you or Dpont seem to get around it? :)

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 05:52 PM
You know it's funny..... you say the above and then you say:

...

you can't use quotes to justify an answer or prove someone has contradicted themselves via a forum its like me doing this .......


And THERE you have it - YOU'VE always thought.... .


Yeah Kat... things must go YOUR way or there is no logic. .

repetitive sounding ???
your starting to sound like Kat except sitting on the otherside of the fence

AGAIN in the interest of professional integrity please remain for biatch slapping each other ,.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 05:54 PM
Is the current SDK really THAT bad and if so how is that you or Dpont seem to get around it? :)
I actually don't think that it is that bad.
It has got its strong points (even compared to the competition) and certainly weak areas. One thing that allows me to speed up development of new stuff is my C++ wrapper for it (so, in that respect, the switch of Core to C++ automatically harnesses the same advantage - but for me personally it's not that much of one because I deal on that level with LW already).
The main difference is accessibility - some things are just impossible or very hard to get at in current LW (mind you, I'm also not much of a modelling tools person).
Nodes have certainly opened up a lot of options - but even there's plenty of places that could use some improvement (technical stuff like exposing the current nodal editor context to nodes, custom data connections between nodes, a more efficient evaluation of nodes with multiple outputs).

One more thing you mentioned further down - features. In my experience one of the worst things you can do as a developer is implement a feature precisely as requested (unless it is very trivial). The reason being that they're usually requested to solve a single problem that exists for a user (or a small but vocal group of users). The hard part is extracting the essence of it and turning it into a feature that us of use to a majority of users.
Ideally, just like you'd want to deliver a shot that is better than expected by the client, a developer would want to deliver a feature that is better than expected.
Sometimes it backfires, but that's why communication early in the game is so important.

Cheers,
Mike

shrox
02-28-2010, 05:55 PM
Where's jin?

*Pete*
02-28-2010, 05:55 PM
You are going to get this CORE thing and then start *****ing about "well in lightwave I used to be able to do this". That's really useful. 3 years from now. I am doing it now, so we can shave off those 3 years and maybe get there in 2 instead.

thats just wrong...here is a snapshot of how it is in HC forums.

nt: adds feature/tool.
users: WOOHOO...party time!!
1 hour later, users: HEY!!...this doesnt work as in LW.
nt: new build, new features, older feature changed somewhat.
users: WOOHOOO!!...new build!!, free beer for everyone!!!
1 hour later, users: HEY..this doesnt work as in LW, but the previus issue is closer to how it was in LW.

and so on...NT adds things, we try them out for bugs, functionality and familiarity...you will find endless threads about layers, about navigation, about...well, everything, bevels, knife tool...even the add point tool is commented upon and the users (we) ask NT to build CORE to match LW as close as possible.





You don't write work flow into a program last you do IT FIRST as part of the technical design document. F!CK... smarten up you guys.

right...just as you start messing with UV's of a high poly object before you made a sketch on paper on what you want to build?

NT builds for example the knifetool for us...as coders they look for a tool that will split a poly..so they code together something that will do so, then they add it into a build and we try it out.
and if we find it to be negative..if it gives bad geometry, crashes CORE or is just too slow to use, requiring 17 and a half click with the mouse to do what took just 2 before, we will let NT know.

you have to understand that you are a professional..you do what you do for a living, some of us model all day long, day after day..our competance in using LW is MUCH greater than the competance of NTs coders.
WE know our workflows becouse WE work with it all the time.

you just cant except NT to know how to model spaceships fast, how to sculpt humans or exactly what kinds of tools are necessary to just your workflow...

they add tools, pretty much default tools to begin with, and we, the users, define the tools with our input.

NT needs our help to create CORE into what we want it to be, and we need NT to create CORE into what we want it to be.

so, if you are a HC member, get your hands on CORE, build 1 and the latest CORE and compare.
you will find that both have some things in common...such as navigation, and you will also find that the newer build is far more familiar.



point is...tools comes first, workflow comes second...LW provides the tools, we shape them so that they can provide a good workflow.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 05:55 PM
Making the software user friendly seems like a no-brainer to me.
Well, yes. But that's as general as the tech FAQ ... i.e.: obvious :D

It's not if or what, but how.

Cheers,
Mike

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 05:56 PM
The point is that theyre able to do it with the current SDK.
Until Core reaches maturity classic LW cant be allowed to languish since thats what depend upon. Right now its feeling stagnant. Still waiting for just bug fixes let alone improved features.
Id love to see more things like DPonts Pixel Filter nodes extended to do basic comping in LW. Its amazing what can be done with that thru the current node system. What about all the new hypertexture possibilities for HVs added because you can now use nodes with them etc?
Look at the cool stuff that can be done with DPKit as a motion modifier...
Denis has allowed nodal access to just about every part of of LW that has a T button...that sort of thing should be expanded up.
So its obvious alot more can be done with the current SDK so why not do it and demo the hell out of these things? Classic LW has a lot of power and life still in it. Core is still being sussed out and really isnt even in a state to be beta tested and certainly not something to be touted yet. Let people know classic LW is alive and well and must be for a few years. Thats a very long time to just let it sit and die and thats what people will see more then seeing the birth of a new app.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 05:58 PM
Which is it?
Look at the 9.x series then. There's good stuff, there's o.k. stuff... and there's, erm, well...

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 05:59 PM
But god knows no one would listen to them. :sleeping:
8/

Cheers,
Mike

VonBon
02-28-2010, 06:02 PM
:alien: I is a FANBOY, so what :devil:

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:03 PM
I see... so what THEY say cannot be used against them when it is an obvious penis? Uh... yeah, right.




exactly my point........

i rest my case !

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:03 PM
Sounds like it's a good idea to have people weighing in early on in CORE. Better now than AFTER v1 hits.
Yeppers...

Then again, you can only weigh in on things that have been released.

Everything else is, again, speculation. And that (as we've seen here) is based on track records, opinions of track records, reading between the lines (one way or another), hopes and fears (neither of which are helping either).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:06 PM
right...just as you start messing with UV's of a high poly object before you made a sketch on paper on what you want to build?
Actually, precisely because you sketch it out before you even start building the mesh (-> write a line of code).
And usually you start with a screen play (which is pretty much the highest level document except for an abstract).

Cheers,
Mike

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:08 PM
Its a track record to execute and do so in full. Too many half tools.
You could rip out most of the half tools in Lightwave today and it would be a better app simple because it wouldn't piss people off who work with it when they first try them. "Oh it doesn't have a tool like that ok, well ok... hmm.." instead "******* hell they put this tool in and ****** it up? why why? put it in if its doesn't ******* work or works half way" (ahem, ACT).

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:10 PM
You can't pick and choose WHICH track record you are talking about when it is ONE track record. :)
Then do pick them apart.
My personal take on the 9.x improvements (as an example, with the exception of FFX): solid tech, bad workflow/GUI changes/additions, often a sloppy and often a half baked implementation (the later being something that goes way back in many cases though).

Now, that gives you different categories -> extrapolate.

Cheers,
Mike

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:10 PM
I completely agree!

It is the reading between the lines and speculation that is not helping ANYONE. So it is wiser AND more productive to tell the team what is good and what is bad and NOT in a tone that "this sucks" and "I don't want it if it isn't MY old LW." We should be helping the process along instead of trying to kill it.

Yea well that would work if the Team was actually "on board" with listening and didn't have people running interference. Guys like you. Some of the stuff you say makes sense, some of it is completely missing the the point. Which isn't just my point, you look at the problem and its THE point.

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 06:10 PM
Sounds like it's a good idea to have people weighing in early on in CORE. Better now than AFTER v1 hits.

See we do agree! :)
Problem is that if some of us early on see some things not going the way we feel it should be going based on experience then we get yelled at for not being uber positive about it.
Im all for change when and where it makes sense. Immediately deviating from LWs tried and true workflow is/was disturbing to some and given some of NTs past history its easy to become gunshy. :)
Im not opposed to changes. One thing Im quite proud of is having a direct hand in getting nodal into LW.
A few years ago I had a team talk server setup for my students to be able to chat. Antti and some others were also hanging out there to chat etc. Antti was already far along in developing nodal as a standalone product. He sent me a copy to learn to perhaps demonstrate at NTs booth at siggraph. At the same time NT was considering purchases one of several other nodal based texturing systems. Pete Jespersen, who was at the helm of the 3d division at that time, asked me what I thought. I told him that NT should definately go with nodal due to its power and flexibility (Also at this time Antti had told me that he had tried unsuccessfully to get NT interested in nodal). After I told Pete about my experiences with nodal he was excited to talk to Antti and so I set them up with a mtg on my team talk server. After they talked for awhile it was a done deal. If not, things would probably have been quite different. Ive done alot of things like that behind the scenes so Im not afraid of change or improvement and Ive certainly done my part. I do it because I DO care about LWs future and I feel that I do need to speak up early if I see something not quite going right. :)

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:12 PM
We should be helping the process along instead of trying to kill it.
You only do that if you feel welcomed though. And maybe some don't... (speculation on my part, but there's probably a lot of things that went on for a long time to warrant some reactions like this).

Yeah, call me an apologist if you will ;)

Cheers,
Mike

kennez
02-28-2010, 06:13 PM
This guy recommended that LightWave should not be sold in China and India to save jobs in US/Canada/whatewer... he still might be in dark ages.

I guess in that case I need to stay away from Lightwave CORE as the software of choice for my studio here in China then. I don't want to take jobs away from the US and Canada, especially when in Guangdong Province at the moment just about EVERY business, 3D studio or otherwise, is looking for staff. Lots of jobs going here, but it would be terrible if we could buy CORE here and give jobs to people.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:14 PM
THAT... was probably the best explanation I've seen.

Thanks for that! :thumbsup:
Yup, that's called design by experiment - an optimized descendant of monkeys with typewriters ;)

Now that's software development from the stone ages. Just imagine the same thing in a movie production. Screw pre-production, trash the script, who needs concept work. Let's just grab a camera and shoot, we'll see what happens when we're there...

Cheers,
Mike

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Then do pick them apart.
My personal take on the 9.x improvements (as an example, with the exception of FFX): solid tech, bad workflow/GUI changes/additions, often a sloppy and often a half baked implementation (the later being something that goes way back in many cases though).

Now, that gives you different categories -> extrapolate.

Cheers,
Mike

Great list of stuff Mike. Two steps forward one step back, and to the left... back and to the left... back and to the left... its like watching JFK sometimes. I don't need to see the bullet go through Lightwave's head yet again and again and again.

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 06:16 PM
As a software developer 'pure sang', I can fully understand how the development team of CORE is dealing with all this. They are actually building the entire framework first and they are trying to embed as much new technologies as possible (Bullet, Stack, History, ...). Once the framework and according SDK is finished, it will be much easier for them to give CORE the LW way of doing certain things. 3rd party developers will be able to do the same, but with much better SDK and much more flexibility. I understand that many non-developers have problems with this way of 'modern' development.

I can only say, go on CORE development team!

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 06:16 PM
Exactly Mike! Apparently were supposed to "help" in a very specific manner defined by a very narrow definition of what that means. :)
Its also seeing this one step forward two steps sideways that makes watching the Core development a very frustrating experience. We see things done like the reveal done in such a terrible way and were told that NT apologized so its ok. Yet we see the same pattern repeated again and were supposed to swallow it each time and be nothing but congratulatory. I see this same pattern repeated with premature annoucements or releases of LW versions and having to wait a long time before having a stable version. The last time was LW9.5. NT apologized for that too. Now Core. Its delayed once, delayed again and so on. Im not against the delay but if theyve truely learned their lesson which they claim to have done then why a repeat again and again?
Who is setting these artificial deadlines? I know that if I were to committ to a deadline and miss it twice Id probably be fired. Why are we not allowed to use the same measuring rod directed at NT?

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:18 PM
Can we merge the threads please ,this is swings and roundabouts and I cant get off .

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:19 PM
I guess in that case I need to stay away from Lightwave CORE as the software of choice for my studio here in China then. I don't want to take jobs away from the US and Canada, especially when in Guangdong Province at the moment just about EVERY business, 3D studio or otherwise, is looking for staff. Lots of jobs going here, but it would be terrible if we could buy CORE here and give jobs to people.

depends on how much you pay , did you watch the webinar or are you just picking up on random points that take an interest and would core deliver content in time ????????? dually noted !

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:21 PM
As a software developer 'pure sang', I can fully understand how the development team of CORE is dealing with all this.
Now, if that was pure framework development then I'd agree. But it's product development depending on a framework. Which also means that your initial specs are a lot higher up.

Add to that the fact that it's product development for a large existing as well as yet unknown new user base.

Or maybe it's just way too early - but then there's nobody but NT to blame for the fuss, nobody forced them into HC.

Cheers,
Mike

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:22 PM
whats the use of "helping the process" if they are going to just run off and do it anyway and this whole "transparent development" thing was just a jerk around for points?

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:23 PM
Can we merge the threads please ,this is swings and roundabouts and I cant get off .
8~ ...now where's that cure "hurl" icon that Skype has?

Cheers,
Mike

VonBon
02-28-2010, 06:23 PM
in the end the tools will be the same for us all, but the workflow
will be different based off the user and thier intentions.

its always good to know what other workflows are, might learn something.

zarti
02-28-2010, 06:26 PM
You know whats going to happen? I will tell you, its the same thing you are doing now about "I want this in CORE because its in XSI or Maya."
only those two ?! i want more. i want everything out-there to be scanned and ripped from them THE BEST! do you think that LW is the best ??
you don't get it guys; this is a great opportunity.

as pros ask yourself;
if you would have the possibility to RE-DO a project you have done times ago, wouldn't you change the approach and why not use additional methodologies gained in the time between?


..., it was the engine which I never want to touch - that was the problem. I'm a driver, not a mechanic.

so you are a driver ?... nice.
now, you stopped to inspect your car and the 'mechanic' tells you; - nice car dude, but your engine cannot go on further; at max 100 miles. sorry, but it is better to change it. what should we do ?? .....



The artist should be the first thing considered when making technical decisions because its the list of requirements/needs of the artists that should be driving the technical specs.
'the artists' ??
have you joined any discussion or given any suggestion on hc about those you speak till today??
if not, why? ... esp when a lot of users are asking and being listened on how to make core's workflow similar to the lw's one, and when your PRO-voices would be listen more carefully ...




good luck

Matt
02-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Yup, that's called design by experiment - an optimized descendant of monkeys with typewriters ;)

Now that's software development from the stone ages. Just imagine the same thing in a movie production. Screw pre-production, trash the script, who needs concept work. Let's just grab a camera and shoot, we'll see what happens when we're there...

Cheers,
Mike

Exactly.

In a perfect world you would define what the user wants / needs to do, design tools to meet those needs, implement and test. THEN the user tells you what needs to change.

Otherwise you could create a tool the user has no need for at all, because you didn't ask them!

BTW: I'm speaking generally here, not suggesting this is how CORE has been designed before anyone gets their knickers in a twist!

:)

Edit: I really don't want my 10,000th post to be in this thread! Must resist! I wanted it to be "special"! :D

Edit: Edit: I wonder if I get a prize from NewTek! :)

cresshead
02-28-2010, 06:27 PM
well this is a lively thread..let's hope some good comes from it

jwiede
02-28-2010, 06:29 PM
CORE isn't supposed to be part of a professional pipeline RIGHT NOW. It's a work in progress.
A work in progress which Newtek is using as the justification for not further developing their existing professional pipeline tool.

I'm not taking a position here whether Newtek's plan is good or bad (I have one, it just isn't relevant to this post). What matters is that it IS what's happening, and for those who rely on that existing professional pipeline tool, the bugs and issues they're encountering today in LW V9 aren't reliably solved by CORE. CORE might solve them at some point in the future, but that does nothing to help them get work done today.

Newtek made statements of commitment to supporting Lightwave V9 as a product, and it is as clear their current direction with CORE is resulting in diminished efforts supporting the existing product. Newtek has said it has to be that way, and maybe it does. Either way, for folks who rely on the existing LW product, their problems aren't going to be addressed any time soon.

Newtek has recanted somewhat from their initial position of "no more LW work", and agreed to continue developing LW 9.6.1, but owners of the existing product who aren't willing to wait for, or interested in CORE are pretty much at the end of the Lightwave road. Furthermore, Newtek DID say "no more classic LW work" in the past, even if they have recanted since then. Think about how that felt for the folks who rely on LW for their own professional work, and who have been strong proponents of LW in the past (even recommending its use in professional work).

Presuming those folks are somehow "anti-LW" is absurd, as is demanding they publicly support Newtek in an endeavor that actively goes against their own needs (which many here seem to be expecting from them).

The point is that, for whatever reason, the current plan does leave some folks "out in the cold". Expecting them to remain quiet on their disappointment at that, or when/whether it will change, is ridiculous. Since they ARE pro users, marking them as pariahs for stating their needs and issues serves only to damage Lightwave's credibility in the pro markets.

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:29 PM
Exactly.

In a perfect world you would define what the user wants / needs to do, design tools to meet those needs, implement and test. THEN the user tells you what needs to change.

Otherwise you could create a tool the user has no need for at all, because you didn't ask them!

BTW: I'm speaking generally here, not suggesting this is how CORE has been designed before anyone gets their knickers in a twist!

:)

2 more 2 go

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 06:29 PM
If you don't like the direction it seems to be heading, why not?

Cheers,
Mike

Let's pretend for a minute that Jay and his team actually bring a lot of the familar workflow that LW artists are accustomed to into CORE like they said they are doing and put aside the whole which comes first argument. You know, the one that asks what comes first, the chicken, the tools, the egg or the workflow? Jay says its the chicken and the tools that come first and Larry and Kat say its the egg and the workflow that comes first. If it's there eventually for the final release, what difference does it make that it's not all there now?

I really want to know what it is about the direction of CORE that they do not like. Is it particular facets of CORE like that it is now object based or that it operates on a modifier stack or that it is entirely node based? What is it specifically about CORE's direction that they do not like? Because marketing/PR, transitional and delay issues aside, I'm not seeing a lot of negatives from the design plans for CORE.

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 06:30 PM
Im also a huge LW fanboy. Its earned me a great living. I got to work on lots of cool projects including Avatar. :)
What I would have like to see is Core focus on being as much like LW as possible...that IMMEDIACY and then start seeing other new features and whatnot added in and THEN have some discussion about how best to implement modifier stacks etc INTO a LW centric workflow. Depth can be added as well but again it needs to be done in a careful, measured why with the idea of keeping the immediacy of LWs workflow (which is what has made LW powerful to use over other apps) at the forefront.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:30 PM
In a perfect world you would define what the user wants / needs to do, design tools to meet those needs, implement and test. THEN the user tells you what needs to change.
Well, in an ideal world you end up surpassing the users needs. It's hard though and works on so many different levels.

BTW: I'm speaking generally here, not suggesting this is how CORE has been designed before anyone gets their knickers in a twist!
Well, my post was just to answer some of the notions in this thread...

Cheers,
Mike

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 06:31 PM
LightWolf: I can certainly agree that it was too early from NT, without a doubt. On the other hand, they gave the people interested a chance to colaborate in the development process. I think the heart of the framework was finished when they did the initial announcement. Now, they are extending the framework and SDK while implementing the tools and workflow with us as 'big brother'. Hey, I know you're a developer yourself, so you know you can't forsee everything in a framework on 'paper', right?

Everybody:Software evolves, then, it has to be rewritten to evolve again. This is just the nature of software. OO helps postponing the rewrite, but in the end, it has to be rewritten anyhow.

mikala
02-28-2010, 06:32 PM
A lot of assuming going on on all sides.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:33 PM
I completely agree!

It is the reading between the lines and speculation that is not helping ANYONE. So it is wiser AND more productive to tell the team what is good and what is bad and NOT in a tone that "this sucks" and "I don't want it if it isn't MY old LW." We should be helping the process along instead of trying to kill it.

Dude, I don't even know why you are here. You already have your dream apps. They are XSI and maya. And you are in here trying to fskc up my dream app, which I almost have now today. Which is Lightwave3D.
You (and other people) are trying to make Lightwave become these other applications. What is the point? Why do you want to do this? why bother spending the effort or even the money on it. What are your loyalties? To lightwave? No. Then what is it?

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:33 PM
I really want to know what it is about the direction of CORE that they do not like.
The problem is that this isn't the venue for it. Which is why most of us try to be as general and vague as possible ;)

Is it particular facets of CORE like that it is now object based or that it operates on a modifier stack or that it is entirely node based? What is it specifically about CORE's direction that they do not like? Because marketing/PR, transitional and delay issues aside, I'm not seeing a lot of negatives from the design plans for CORE.
As I said previously, the tech FAQ is a very obvious list of things that anybody would use as a foundation for a new app.
So, in that spirit, I thinks it's certainly not the what but the how.

Cheers,
Mike

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 06:36 PM
only those two ?! i want more. i want everything out-there to be scanned and ripped from them THE BEST! do you think that LW is the best ??
you don't get it guys; this is a great opportunity.

as pros ask yourself;
if you would have the possibility to RE-DO a project you have done times ago, wouldn't you change the approach and why not use additional methodologies gained in the time between?



so you are a driver ?... nice.
now, you stopped to inspect your car and the 'mechanic' tells you; - nice car dude, but your engine cannot go on further; at max 100 miles. sorry, but it is better to change it. what should we do ?? .....



'the artists' ??
have you joined any discussion or given any suggestion on hc about those you speak till today??
if not, why? ... esp when a lot of users are asking and being listened on how to make core's workflow similar to the lw's one, and when your PRO-voices would be listen more carefully ...




good luck
I have made my concerns VERY known on the Core forums and other venues.
Sure its good to have the car inspected and fix what NEEDS fixing but thats different from a mechanic who has never driven my car telling me that my car is a worthless and needs to be totally redesigned and that the steering wheel, gas pedal brakes etc need to be totally changed around etc. :)
I know my needs and Ive been in enough studios to know what those needs are a lot better then a developer coding at a desk by himself nowhere near a studio. :)

Im all for using new methodologies where it makes sense to especially when someone can PROVE its a better methodology. So far Ive not seen one design spec from Core detailing how its supposed to be used, what its supposed to look like, how its supposed to be navigated, how its supposed to do anything....its all be technical white papers. For me as a driver it doesnt help me at all nor convince me that whats under the hood will make my driving experience bigger, better or faster. I know that better then they do.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:37 PM
You know something.... much of what you AND Larry have said makes a great deal of sense. And here's something that may shock you - I agree with much of it. But I will tell you that when you constantly AND consistently put down the process and trash CORE, you dilute your message so much that no one wants to hear anything you have to say. It's really that simple.

I don't have the same history you have with Newtek, though I've been "with" them for 14 years. Apparently unlike you, I trust them to make LW better. I trust what Jay and Chuck have told us - which sadly - apparently you and Larry do not. But in the end that doesn't matter - Newtek will make the next version of LW as best as they can. If you want to be a serious part of the process/progress, you will have to stop being only negative and work "within" the system.

I would hope that you guys could put aside your "intensity" and try to work WITH this development team rather than against them at every step. I would love to see Newtek reach out to both of you and REALLY bring you into the fold more so than the rest of us in HardCORE so you can help to shape LW. But with this current animosity... I don't see that happening. And the truth is... we will ALL suffer for it.

You may not believe this, but I respect both you and Larry for your talent and participation in the LW community. The training and webinars you have created with Wes are invaluable and I look forward to more. But (again, another but) I want more. I want you BOTH to work WITH this Newtek team even though you may not like what is happening at the moment. I don't think there is ANYONE here who would disagree with me when I say - you guys working WITH Newtek would make LW better than you two NOT working with the team.

I hope you change your minds and TRY (again) to work with them. And if Jay and Chuck (and Rob and Jarrod and others) are reading this, I know it may be difficult but we need a serious olive branch here and someone has to offer it. Please consider it - we will ALL be better for it. We would ALL like to see/feel some synergy instead of seeing the community split. :newtek:

GREAT! then maybe there could be some kind of give on their end which is STOP WORKING AGAINST US!
We (you included) know the software better than they do in terms of its scope and place in the market and how its used and why its STILL USED. That is UNDENIABLE!
I am just sick and tired of dragging NT to the water when they are dying of thirst. And you have no idea what kind of effort I have put in recently to change this.

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 06:37 PM
A lot of assuming going on on all sides.

I agree there is a degree of assuming, but as a developer I can see the 'road' the developers are taking while making CORE. This is of a developer perspective which is most of the time the opposite of the end-user :D.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:38 PM
LightWolf: I can certainly agree that it was too early from NT, without a doubt. On the other hand, they gave the people interested a chance to colaborate in the development process.
Define collaboration ;) Then also tell me how users should collaborate in a "we're still building a framework" stage.

Hey, I know you're a developer yourself, so you know you can't forsee everything in a framework on 'paper', right?
No. but I also spend massive amounts of time discussing things with users.

But, the framework is something that our users aren't considered with in the first place. Except when they're happy to get support for new buffers half an hour after NT released a new version of LW. But that's a different issue.

I've also quite often pitched ideas to our beta testers to discuss options on how certain features would actually make sense to them.

Cheers,
Mike

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:39 PM
Sorry Mike, thats BS. You can pick them apart, but there is ONLY ONE TRACK RECORD for Newtek. That's what a track record is. You can't pick apart the track record - it IS what it IS. When someone says "it's there track record" they can't say "oh but this and that is their track record, but that and this is not their track record."

And Newtek's track record of recent - which is the ONLY thing that is valid since THEY are responsible for the 9.x series - has been pretty good. If you want to talk about "older" track records, where is the validity?

Come on Mike, let's be real here.

David, I don't think you should step out on that limb, there is a lot of information you are not aware of that if you did know you would be like ..."oh.. .fsck.. are you serious....sheet...." and then would sink into a depression about it.

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 06:40 PM
What I would have like to see is Core focus on being as much like LW as possible...that IMMEDIACY and then start seeing other new features and whatnot added in and THEN have some discussion about how best to implement modifier stacks etc INTO a LW centric workflow. Depth can be added as well but again it needs to be done in a careful, measured why with the idea of keeping the immediacy of LWs workflow (which is what has made LW powerful to use over other apps) at the forefront.

I'm sorry but how do you make a new version of Lightwave, get it acting and looking as much like Lightwave as possible and then decide later to implement a modifier stack? Or make the entire program node based? These concepts are at the very heart of CORE and they aren't something you can just throw on top of an existing framework. That would require almost a complete rewrite. So you want to rewrite Lightwave and then rewrite major portions of the code every time you want to add a significant structure in LW?

And it has made LW more powerful to use for you, but seemingly not the deluge of people who have left LW for what they perceived as more powerful applications.

shrox
02-28-2010, 06:41 PM
Is the adage about making sausage is something you don't want see applicable here regarding Core development?

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 06:42 PM
SplineGo: this is a typical problem you've touched there. Many developers are indeed behind their desk and are not really using the software they develop the way end-users do. I think this is unavoidable. On the other hand, the developers here the voice of many end-users and it is their task to make a global opinion and implementation. It is impossible for NT to restart LW from zero (CORE) and at the same time continue development on the current 9.6 release. The probably don't have enough resources for that and had to make a choice knowing a lot of end-users wouldn't be happy at first.

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 06:42 PM
As I said previously, the tech FAQ is a very obvious list of things that anybody would use as a foundation for a new app.
Cheers,
Mike

Hmm, not Modo.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:43 PM
Sorry Mike, thats BS. You can pick them apart, but there is ONLY ONE TRACK RECORD for Newtek. That's what a track record is. You can't pick apart the track record - it IS what it IS. When someone says "it's there track record" they can't say "oh but this and that is their track record, but that and this is not their track record."

And Newtek's track record of recent - which is the ONLY thing that is valid since THEY are responsible for the 9.x series - has been pretty good. If you want to talk about "older" track records, where is the validity?

Come on Mike, let's be real here.
Their track record is precisely what I wrote (in my opinion). Sorry for not being able to sum it up in one word. It's more complex than that.
It's not:
Q: "How are you?"
A: "Fine!"
But more like:
A: "Not too bad, just landed a really good gig, have a client delaying payments and the RSI is killing me today."

If you prefer a single word: "o.k.".

Cheers,
Mike

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 06:44 PM
LightWolf:

Everybody:Software evolves, then, it has to be rewritten to evolve again. This is just the nature of software. OO helps postponing the rewrite, but in the end, it has to be rewritten anyhow.

The problem I have with the term "evolve" is that it doesnt imply a care coordinated workflow with a specific design goal in mind. It implies random experimentation until and end is accidentally arrived it. Ive had some art directors who couldnt communicate the nature of something that needed to be created. I was told to just keep doing revisions unt il they liked something I did eventually. Thats not a great way to work.
Ive also been told by an art director to make some specific changes to improve a render and when I made the changes based on my understanding he would ask, "is it BETTER or just DIFFERENT?"
As far as developing Core and LW NT made that decision and they should have taken this all into acct right? Theyve been PLANNING this for several years right? :)

VonBon
02-28-2010, 06:45 PM
this ain't Burger King :D

we can't all have it our way.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:47 PM
completely agree.

but this doesnt mean that it wont be possible to add the methology and mentality into CORE.

i
wouldnt you prefer to have the power of the big apps, coupled with the ease and speed of LW?

.

Yeah that would be great, but what is the power of the big apps that is being brought over to lightwave? no seriously... what is it... and who needs it and when? And then why? then ask can it be cone in LW now, or no? then ask if thats going to sell seats or not, since that a factor of course - (can't break into a marketing you have no chance in hell of getting into because your rep is so damaged from years of "track record") - and then ask yourself are we seeing any of Lightwave in core....

You may be asking yourself more questions than getting answers and that is my concern.

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 06:47 PM
LightWolf: that's why I agree that NT was to early with their announcement. Only developers should have been contacted at that time to complete the framework. Probably NT has contacted some key 3rd party developers before the announcement, but I don't know this for sure. Beta-testers shouldn't be involved with the framework at all, but with the implementation of the tools and workflow. A stage we reached some months ago in my opinion (and not a year ago!).

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:47 PM
SplineGo: this is a typical problem you've touched there. Many developers are indeed behind their desk and are not really using the software they develop the way end-users do. I think this is unavoidable.
SideFX (Houdini) have an interesting approach to that: Every developer has to do tech support (not permanently of course). So you get into direct contact at least with the people that are tortured by the code you write ;)
The danger of that is obviously feature creep, but that's a problem one way or another anyhow.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:49 PM
Hmm, not Modo.
Well, now - not back then.

On the other hand, they got a lot of stuff right from the start.

Cheers
Mike

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:49 PM
all this is easily solved download this http://www.blender.org/download/get-blender/ and write in this http://www.python.org/download/ TA DA

djlithium
02-28-2010, 06:49 PM
THAT... was probably the best explanation I've seen.

Thanks for that! :thumbsup:

NO IT DOESN'T!
WORK FLOW COMES FIRST!
Look at any assembly line in the world. You cannot build the car until the tools are in place, but you have to design the CAR to understand what tools you need. The design is the WORKFLOW!

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:50 PM
Probably NT has contacted some key 3rd party developers before the announcement, but I don't know this for sure.

I can say that much: No.

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:51 PM
ok hitting 2am this has been fun enjoy !

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 06:52 PM
I'm sorry but how do you make a new version of Lightwave, get it acting and looking as much like Lightwave as possible and then decide later to implement a modifier stack? Or make the entire program node based? These concepts are at the very heart of CORE and they aren't something you can just throw on top of an existing framework. That would require almost a complete rewrite. So you want to rewrite Lightwave and then rewrite major portions of the code every time you want to add a significant structure in LW?

And it has made LW more powerful to use for you, but seemingly not the deluge of people who have left LW for what they perceived as more powerful applications.

The foundation of Core is supposed to be so flexible then they can do anything, right?
You start off with things at least as close to working the way people expect so instead of being distracted by how tube, cubes and spheres work or how a bevel tool should work we can focus on how to best implement features we never had.
Imagine for example the current LW where every aspect of it was animatable and acccessible with nodes. Imagine the incosistencies removed etc. How great would that be? Now throw that on a completely rewritten codebase...

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:53 PM
But I will now no longer enter a "conversation" with the purpose of telling you you're wrong about CORE.

you just done that :bangwall:

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:53 PM
ok hitting 2am this has been fun enjoy !
Group hug?

Cheers,
Mike - approaching 3am...

VonBon
02-28-2010, 06:54 PM
Before anything we need an environment to exist in
before you start to do anything.

SplineGod
02-28-2010, 06:55 PM
SideFX (Houdini) have an interesting approach to that: Every developer has to do tech support (not permanently of course). So you get into direct contact at least with the people that are tortured by the code you write ;)
The danger of that is obviously feature creep, but that's a problem one way or another anyhow.

Cheers,
Mike

Or how about the developers of Blender creating films with it and using the experience of using it in production to fix things, add features etc? Seems to work quite well in fact well enough that Core is now trying to borrow things from the free apps. :)

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 06:55 PM
NO IT DOESN'T!
WORK FLOW COMES FIRST!
Look at any assembly line in the world. You cannot build the car until the tools are in place, but you have to design the CAR to understand what tools you need. The design is the WORKFLOW!

Do you happen to have any Lightwave/software development analogies? Why does someone always have to go to the dark world of car analogies to try and make a point?

Ok, this thread now has everything it requires for a closed banner. Insults, heated arguing, and the ever essential car analogy.

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 06:56 PM
SplineGod: another nice touch of reality there :D. There are only a few people that clearly know what they want. For developers this is often a big problem because most developers need a 'perfect' structured explanation (analysis/planning) and then they write the code to do just that. Only a few developers are able to think outside the box and make this analysis by themselves. Viktor is a good example of such a developer. He understands his users. As for CORE's developers? They improved LW 9 wonderful towards 9.6. I guess we'll have to wait and see because CORE is too young and unfinished for the moment.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 06:58 PM
Or how about the developers of Blender creating films with it and using the experience of using it in production to fix things, add features etc?
Well, not necessarily the developers actually creating them... but working hand in hand with the team that was hired to produce something to push certain features forward.
It's certainly a good plan (Bingo the clown was mentioned somewhere).

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 06:58 PM
I guess we'll have to wait and see because CORE is too young and unfinished for the moment.

you mean Alpha ......................... :D

zarti
02-28-2010, 06:59 PM
Sure its good to have the car inspected and fix what NEEDS fixing but thats different from a mechanic who has never driven my car telling me that my car is a worthless and needs to be totally redesigned and that the steering wheel, gas pedal brakes etc need to be totally changed around etc. :)
o-ho!... i see now. there is something in personal here, so nothing much to say here but this; a mechanic is a mechanic, physics is physics, and so on.



I know that better then they do.

they who ??

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 07:01 PM
For developers this is often a big problem because most developers need a 'perfect' structured explanation (analysis/planning) and then they write the code to do just that.
Oh, tell me all about it... ;)

The again, that is a management problem in a more classical environment.

On the other hand, as somebody wrote once "If I need to write out my specs with so much details that the developers can write the code, then I'm quicker writing it myself".
And since NT have a relatively small team, they can't rely on that.

Cheers,
Mike

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 07:02 PM
you mean Alpha ......................... :D

And there I was trying to say it in a different way... But yeah... Alpha stage :thumbsup:.

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 07:05 PM
Imagine for example the current LW where every aspect of it was animatable and acccessible with nodes. Imagine the incosistencies removed etc. How great would that be? Now throw that on a completely rewritten codebase...

I do believe here Larry that like before, you are over simplifying the design of such a project. There is the whole unified app matter to contend with which affect both GUI and workflow issues. There are tool issues to consider as well as some new tools would be required in a unified app while others would not be required any longer. Also some tools might be useful for both modeling and animation so that would be different as well. This app you are proposing that looks and feels like Lightwave without the limitations would not and could not look and feel as much like Lightwave as you are suggesting(maybe more then CORE certainly, but still very different). Some significant change was going to happen whether it was CORE or something like you are suggesting.

Besides and I hate belaboring the point, but we still do not know how much familiarity CORE will have with Lightwave once its closer to being finished. I know it just burns you up that this didn't happen at the start but does it really make that much difference as long as it happens eventually?

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 07:05 PM
Oh, tell me all about it... ;)

The again, that is a management problem in a more classical environment.

On the other hand, as somebody wrote once "If I need to write out my specs with so much details that the developers can write the code, then I'm quicker writing it myself".
And since NT have a relatively small team, they can't rely on that.

Cheers,
Mike

I have to live with that everyday. Most youngsters coming from school are even worse. They don't know the programming language very well, they don't understand problem solving at all and they have no responsibility anymore...

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 07:06 PM
quick question befor3 i retire , how big is NT dev team compared to blenders ? catch my drift ...........

and to NT dev team , keep up the good work you must be sweating ... unsung hero's !

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 07:09 PM
They don't know the programming language very well, they don't understand problem solving at all and they have no responsibility anymore...
Yeah, but I bet the old 'uns said the same last two things about us at some point in time ;)
There's a certain truth to it though, when we started you had to be close to the metal to get anything done, nowadays a lot is abstracted away resulting in less (automatic) understanding of what's actually going on behind the scenes.

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
02-28-2010, 07:10 PM
THRE/\D CLOSED ! see http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=992265#post992265

:P

shrox
02-28-2010, 07:13 PM
little blue type

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 07:17 PM
Lightwolf: I worked with some old ones before starting my own company. They were the type that didn't have a clue what 'building a UI' was. Simple text on terminals was good enough for them (VAX/VMS, AS/400, ...). Then you had the generation that had their first PC's in the late 80's and early 90's. We had to do it all, from database structure to UI. Now, just lke you said, every developer works on a specific part and they don't see the whole deal anymore. It's actually similar to the guys working at ILM.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 07:19 PM
Lightwolf: I worked with some old ones before starting my own company. They were the type that didn't have a clue what 'building a UI' was.
Yeah, but I bet they could still debug properly, in the original sense of the word :D

Cheers,
Mike

Myagi
02-28-2010, 07:23 PM
There's a certain truth to it though, when we started you had to be close to the metal to get anything done, nowadays a lot is abstracted away resulting in less (automatic) understanding of what's actually going on behind the scenes.

Indeed. It's like shao lin kung fu stuff or something, one must master the mind before mastering the body. Those darn kids just want to jump right in and do all the cool fighting moves. ;)

jwiede
02-28-2010, 07:29 PM
By the way, my previous post was in no way an attack of Newtek, though I'm sure it will be taken as one by some here. Newtek is taking actions they feel is necessary to survive in the market. Those actions may have negative consequences, but they may still be necessary for Newtek's long-term needs. Likewise, those negatively impacted by Newtek's actions have every right to ensure their own needs are met as well. Both positions are equally reasonable.

Newtek is taking a gamble with CORE, and it might succeed and pay off, but it might also fail horribly. Presuming either outcome is so certain that people are wrong to think otherwise is ridiculous and arrogant.

Instead of focusing on silencing dissenting opinions, we should all focus on how to satisfy the greatest possible set of needs overall.

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 07:30 PM
The 'kids' are only interested in flashy stuff. Decent developing, thinking about memory usage and disk I/O is not of their concern anymore. I would love to give them a c64 or Amiga 1200 without memory extensions and ask them to develop some of those amazing demo's in several nights :D.

Lightwolf
02-28-2010, 07:35 PM
The 'kids' are only interested in flashy stuff. Decent developing, thinking about memory usage and disk I/O is not of their concern anymore. I would love to give them a c64 or Amiga 1200 without memory extensions and ask them to develop some of those amazing demo's in several nights :D.
I suspect the only thing that comes close to that nowadays are embedded systems and GPUs ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Myagi
02-28-2010, 07:40 PM
GPU coding has become way too high level with HLSL/GLSL, allowing every 'murkser' to code stuff. We need to get back to the good old shader assembly :D

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 07:44 PM
With .Net CF and Java, many of the embedded market is also taken by those 'murksers', so a computer from the 80's is really what we need for them. Oh, they would break their teeth on them :D.

COBRASoft
02-28-2010, 07:46 PM
Which is why these dissenters NEED to try very hard to work with NT and put aside any rivalries and/or diffrences. And NT needs to do the same. I think it's safe to assume that everyone here wants LW to be the best it can be for EVERYONE. Only by working together will that happen. I do hope that Newtek is listening to this as well.

When the unbelievers give the developers needed time, I'm sure NT will succeed. In what level will they succeed? That will depend how good they listen.

Intuition
02-28-2010, 08:35 PM
I feel the need to chime in here.

I think ultimately the topic of "core vs old lightwave vs just use other apps if you want core to act like a,b and c" is a valid one.

The reality is that Core is on the way in regardless of how people feel about Lightwave 3D and no one can blame Kat for being passionate about Lightwave here. I mean, there are crazy urban myths based around this guy and his LW love at multiple graphic houses. ;)

Regardless, as much as Kat loves Lightwave and as much as his points have a certain perspective that validates arguments against Core I don't really see the need for such a battle against Core. Yet at the same time certain points merit consideration.

Core can be made to act like app a, b, and c.

If this is true will it be feature heavy enough to pull people from apps a,b and c OR will it just be a gateway drug for people to get familiar enough with said apps through Core and then ultimately leave to app a, b, or c?

Its a double edge sword. Can you win them over to buy core or do you train them towards other apps?

I believe that Core will be capable enough to act just like almost any app out there. The UI structure seems malleable enough to not only appeal to Maya hotbox/marking menu people or the multipanel mode treatment you get in XSi or Modo but also the main window + tabs and floating panel + tabs method that Lightwave has.

My point?

That Core will ultimately be able to emulate Lightwave so well that even hardcore LW users like Kat will be able to feel at home in it.

I mean, whats the big deal? Arrange the layout to match "layout" buttons, bring up floating windows you can drag to monitor 2 and each floating window can have the tabs arranged how you like in LW. Set some hot keys...done.

In the meantime those that like a little LW + maya + XSI + modo can make core an uber app since its being set up so open ended that we can get a from app b and c from app a all in one place.

In the end no matter what points are made Core is the future of NT.

I think it would be great if like Autodesk, NT could ultimately sell multiple apps. That way Lightwave 3D could go on being developed for those that love it and Core could continue being made into an uber app for those that have the vision to see it through.

I can't tell you how many people I have trained to use XSI, Maya, modo and even a little max from Lightwave.

Tomorrow night a couple more Zoic people are coming over to my place to get Maya tuts on rigging because they hit a wall in hireability.

Why am I doing this? Well because the jobs are elsewhere these days. People that were LW champs at DD now feel more at home in Maya. I mean a few don't because they have 10+ years in Lightwave and want maya to have the same camera/light look through navigation that Lightwave does, some people, once imprinted dont want to learn anything new. And I can agree with them that Lightwave's method has a certain feel to it that we all got used to.

Yet as soon as the other aspects start to become familiar they all start going "oh... damn really... oh niiiiiice...oh jeez... seriously...wow?" then the old "Maya is only good because its marketing" starts to look like an argument made by those who have no idea what they are talking about.

So Newtek are building an app that can be versatile enough to keep up with Maya and Co and maybe even try to surpass them. Which is what Core can become and even though I don't plan on leaving Maya this decade I can definitely say I love innovation and I hope that NT in developing core can give me multiple things I like in XSI (colored bone weight map painting, a few XSi centric modeling tools), modo (UI customization ease, workplanes, live modeling feedback), Maya (too many to list, workflow king of hill), and even old School Lightwave (camera/nav, ) all available in one app.

This is the spirit of Core and why it has the chance at becoming something special.

In the meantime I think Kat wanting to Keep classic Lightwave3D alive is also valid and maybe viable. I mean Autodesk slings max, maya, XSi, mudbox from their house I don't see why Newtek couldn't offer both Core and Lighwave for the forseebale future?

I personally would want all resources focused on Core so it can get up to speed faster (maybe it is hogging all resources, I dunno) but if AD can sell multiple apps why not NT?

Regardless, at the end of the day the future is on its way in. I've had such a great time learning new things over the last 5 years that I always welcome new technology. I really have enjoyed 3dsmax on a few projects, XSi on a few projects and now Maya for tons of endless work that seems to pile up. Why would anyone miss an opportunity to have these jobs?

Kat seems to want new technology for classic Lightwave since he is at home there and doesn't want to see it go to waste.

I mean its not beating Houdini for FX work or Maya for Character work but as a generalist app there are aspects of Lightwave that we had/have all grown to love and Kat lives in a world where the majority of work is found in other apps. This used to be true of XSI. Heck for a while there were stories of people leaving this new fangled XSi thing that ruined Softimage for a crazy app known as Lightwave because thats where the "jobs" where. We've seen this before in different ways.

Now Softimage/XSi has a huge user base in Europe. Core is the app that has that potential. In the meantime. Kat's points about classic Lightwave still being used are valid since Core is not ready for primetime yet. So where is the middle ground?

You decide.

shrox
02-28-2010, 08:40 PM
Finally getting a look at the interface eases some concerns and raises others for me. How much will I have to relearn? Will the menu flow be too different from my current one? At least it appears that words have been retained rather than exchanged for icons.

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 08:52 PM
Good post Intuition.

I agree that the idea of Newtek selling both Lightwave and CORE would appeal to some,but like you I want to see all the focus on bringing CORE up to speed.

You know I thought LW was one of the best apps until I started looking more and more at XSI and eventually used it for a while. I started to realize that Lightwave could stand to see some improvment. XSI is a marveously designed application. It's just a shame (for me anyway) that AD now owns it. But then XSI didn't have LWCAD which for me, has just about become a dealbreaker anymore. A lot of people say that Fprime has kept them using Lightwave even when they thought about switching. For me, it's been LWCAD. Lucky me that it will probably be one of the first larger comercial apps that comes to CORE. (fingers crossed on that one anyway)

I believe that the idea behind CORE is a good one and that eventually it will be a solid app and a contender that legacy Lightwave can't be. This transitionary period though is not going to be easy. Some have said that XSI went through the same sort of transition, I wonder if it developed the same kind of response from its userbase.

hrgiger
02-28-2010, 08:54 PM
Finally getting a look at the interface eases some concerns and raises others for me. How much will I have to relearn? Will the menu flow be too different from my current one? At least it appears that words have been retained rather than exchanged for icons.

Well, the interface (or workflow) is still a ways from finished so it's hard to say how much different it will end up being. With CORE you can have words or icons, or both. Which goes back to what Intuition was saying above, CORE will offer some flexibility on how you like to work.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:23 PM
I'm sorry but how do you make a new version of Lightwave, get it acting and looking as much like Lightwave as possible and then decide later to implement a modifier stack? Or make the entire program node based? These concepts are at the very heart of CORE and they aren't something you can just throw on top of an existing framework. That would require almost a complete rewrite. So you want to rewrite Lightwave and then rewrite major portions of the code every time you want to add a significant structure in LW?

And it has made LW more powerful to use for you, but seemingly not the deluge of people who have left LW for what they perceived as more powerful applications.

Well its really simple, you don't start announcing features lists and tech spes before you have the thing in a place where you can make any of those things happen by demonstrating you have frame work set up so that it can accommodate BOTH. If CORE's SDK is so fantastic (and again, I hear it is - which is a good thing) then this shouldn't be too much of a hassle and instead of pissing us off by building something no one wants to use in a studio environment let alone at home because its so far away from what you are used to with all of these "super features" being placed over and above the basics of the minimum base level tools we need to use it at all, you can then pull your head out of your ***, and look around and see what needs to be done.
It's not that hard. Which leads me to the whole 64bit question... WHAT THE FXCK IS THE PROBLEM!?
Build the best frame work and foundation for the application and then build in the tools we have now in the work flow we have now, and then enchance the product once you have that. Why? because you can at least sell that "basic product" to your current customers while looking forward to building on a user base with new users instead of ctrl+alt+del'ing the situation for some - ionly newtek management knows - freaking reason. Oh, and you might not be able reboot that one... it may be it for the bios (the main user base who has supported this thing for all this time).

DON'T PISS US OFF!

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:26 PM
Which is why these dissenters NEED to try very hard to work with NT and put aside any rivalries and/or diffrences. And NT needs to do the same. I think it's safe to assume that everyone here wants LW to be the best it can be for EVERYONE. Only by working together will that happen. I do hope that Newtek is listening to this as well.

Like I said, you have NO FREAKING IDEA what I have just gone through to try and make that happen. And again, if you did... well you might just raise an eye brow here and do a mr. spock.

I would love to work together. I know what I need to continue, lots of people do. But we actually have a PLAN, what's yours for how to make this go?

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:28 PM
When the unbelievers give the developers needed time, I'm sure NT will succeed. In what level will they succeed? That will depend how good they listen.

We would love to give the developers more time, unfortunately we are fresh out of another 5 years of development cycle to get what we want. CORE is 3-5 years away and even if it was here next week, I don't think I would use it. Not with the indications of where it is going.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:34 PM
One real BIG reason: $

Are you kidding? they can do both. If they choose to.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:35 PM
Are you kidding? they can do both. If they choose to.

Oh yeah and it won't even cost them anything. But again you don't know what I know, so... that's that. Dead in the water. I tried. So now its back to fighting back. Seems to make a bigger difference anyway.

The Wizzard
02-28-2010, 10:48 PM
And then the unknown poster pops up and joins in....

From what little I've seen of core, i would hope that it carries with it a lot of the aspects we've all come to love about LW - Interface, layout, etc. Having to learn a new way of working when the 'old' way "works!" just seems a waste of time and resources. Better to have LW working, stable and 'Comfortable' then risking a whole new playing field to get lost in.

LW 9.x does seem to have some stigma attached to it - god only knows why... just look at some of the shows that feature it.... In fact almost every show i watch has some aspect of LW work in. Surely marketing for NT speaks for itself when it comes how widely it used.

I have to side with Kat, LW DOES have some issues but, that's no reason to 'Re-invent the wheel' with a seamingly start again from scratch attitude that NT appears to have in developing core. LW needs to be taken apart and each aspect 'fixed' then put back together, keeping the frontend 'as is'. Core is looking like NT is trying to fall in with the autodesk model in a vain attempt to pull users over... and in the process alienating us die-hard LW user.

Agreed though.... more of us should be working with NT to further develop LW. Together we ARE stronger and i feel NT would be better suited to listening to the users... we don't need new, we need better!!!

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:54 PM
right on brother.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:57 PM
They are not AutoDesk. Unless you are thinking of YOU taking the code and building on that. In which case, I would have to say that Newtek should NOT do that. :)

Why would that be so bad? If I screwed it up then you could laugh all you wanted and I would be toast right? But on the other hand if I pulled it off and NT had stronger better bridge to get to the end goal while CORE "develops" (and then is forced to go into being Lightwave with a new engine anyway, because the design paradigm with CORE is a bad idea, new code, great - but that's not going to make it successful) enough to be a viable product while its little brother is still kicking *** to make sure it has someone to sell to in the end. Wouldn't that be a good thing then? I can't see that as being a bad situation for you. Or for me. So why not? What is there to loose for you? Nothing.

djlithium
02-28-2010, 10:58 PM
They are not AutoDesk. Unless you are thinking of YOU taking the code and building on that. In which case, I would have to say that Newtek should NOT do that. :)

Trust me, they can do both.

jameswillmott
02-28-2010, 11:50 PM
Trust me, they can do both.

I thought that was the plan anyway? Keep developing and selling LW9.x for some time yet as well as Core?

VonBon
03-01-2010, 12:52 AM
some will like it, some want, if you don't like it, well you can always
purchase another product. if it means alot to you as far as where CORE
is headed then join HC, other wise stop :cry:

if your one of those people who have to have it "all" your way then HC
is not for you. People who are threating to use another package, well
i don't think you will be missed that much.

Newtek just needs to do what they have been doing. obviously they have
been doing something right for us to be here now.

instead of complaining and :cry:

do what the rest of us do, post your feature request if not in HC,
other wise your comments are wasting good bytes saying the same thing
over and over. some of you must think that just because your so called
"professionals", that what the rest of us think doesn't matter, well
your wrong, and i don't like you throwing those of us who think CORE is
going in a good direction in a category of "what we say has no value"

don't pi$$ on our parade cause you mad that newtek is not taking into
consideration everything you want as if it is the holy grail of all things 3D.

stop :cursin: and be an influence or :twak:

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 01:04 AM
Which is why these dissenters NEED to try very hard to work with NT and put aside any rivalries and/or diffrences. And NT needs to do the same. I think it's safe to assume that everyone here wants LW to be the best it can be for EVERYONE. Only by working together will that happen. I do hope that Newtek is listening to this as well.

Part of the problem is that from one perspective we might be the dissenters but from another you might be the dissenter. Yes, we all want LW to be the best it can be which is why we are voicing our concerns now. Just because what we say doesnt agree with your opinion doesnt make our POV less valid or more dissenting. :)

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 01:07 AM
My plan is to let Newtek create CORE. They have made me lots of money in the past, and I believe they will in the future. And for me, that's that. :)

The only fly in that particular jar of ointment is that the original developers who did make LW what it is , bad and good all left because they felt NT wasnt listening to them either. They formed another company and Modo is feeling alot more like LW then Core is IMO. Id like to continue making money with the features, workflow etc that made LW DIFFERENT from other apps in a better, more competitive way.

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 01:11 AM
some will like it, some want, if you don't like it, well you can always
purchase another product. if it means alot to you as far as where CORE
is headed then join HC, other wise stop :cry:

if your one of those people who have to have it "all" your way then HC
is not for you. People who are threating to use another package, well
i don't think you will be missed that much.

Newtek just needs to do what they have been doing. obviously they have
been doing something right for us to be here now.

instead of complaining and :cry:

do what the rest of us do, post your feature request if not in HC,
other wise your comments are wasting good bytes saying the same thing
over and over. some of you must think that just because your so called
"professionals", that what the rest of us think doesn't matter, well
your wrong, and i don't like you throwing those of us who think CORE is
going in a good direction in a category of "what we say has no value"

don't pi$$ on our parade cause you mad that newtek is not taking into
consideration everything you want as if it is the holy grail of all things 3D.

stop :cursin: and be an influence or :twak:

Many of us here ARE in HC and we aware the Core is being developed. NT INVITED us to COLLABORATE and we paid to do so. We are giving our input now because we are concerned as opposed to just having nothing better to do then piss and moan. LW has made me a lot of money and opened doors for me in many ways. Ive been able to work on all kinds of projects including Avatar and trust me when I say that Im here and on HC because I want the ESSENSE that made LW such a great tool to be captured, bottled and INFUSED into Core. :)

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 01:18 AM
Well... I'm not one to defend Kat or Larry, but the sad truth is... they WILL be missed if they decide to continue this downhill run. I am hoping that they will regroup and start working WITH Newtek - we'll ALL be better for it having these veterans WITH us as opposed to against us.



Again the assumption that WE somehow are wrong because we dont agree with you is misguided. I personally dont feel that any of the long term LW users will be missed at all. Many have already left and theres a steady, continuous exodous to other apps going on. Thats whats sad but true.
If the so called veterens didnt care one way or the other and were just content for NT to do "whatever" we would simply sit by and watch the spectacle. The fact that people are speaking out is a good thing. Saying that we are wrong simple because we dont agree WITH you only encourages that exodous away from LW. I hope NT takes heed and doesnt make migrating over to other apps any more attractive then its doing already.
Please define in your opinion what exactly "working with Newtek" means. :)

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 01:34 AM
I would prefer to see LW and Core decoupled and developed in parallel separately. I would like to see the current version of LW further developed and fixed until Core is able to stand alone. Theres still a lot of life and capability in the current LW which is, and for the foreseeable future, the only version capable of earning a living with. Why waste the energy on Core, HC, 9.6.1, rendition AND making them coexist as seamlessly as possible?
If NT barely has the resources to do Core then how can they develop and juggle all that at the same time? If they can hire Rob then put some resources into pushing the current version of LW to higher levels until Core can fly on its own.

zarti
03-01-2010, 01:47 AM
Ive been able to work on all kinds of projects including Avatar and trust me when I say that Im here and on HC because I want the ESSENSE that made LW such a great tool to be captured, bottled and INFUSED into Core. :)
that is good to read (@least), but what is your opinion for example about ..... ..... about this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101958) ??
what about this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105930) ? or this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106661) ? or this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103426) ?

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 01:55 AM
It's been said on the HC forums that NT is taking too much of the essence of those "other apps" - "if I wanted Max or Maya I'd go and buy them" is the sentiment. If that's the case, then WHY would LW users abandon LW to migrate to another app that LW may soon be very much like? I don't think your logic is too well thought out here.
Easy, because those other apps deliver now, not at some unknown point in the future.
And if the world is changing anyways, then one may as well change quickly and get it over and done with.

Cheers,
Mike

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 01:57 AM
Im not in any way against adding in other features. I think that great pains should be taken to absolutely preserve that IMMEDIACY in LWs workflow first and foremost. THAT has been the major thing that has kept LW competitive despite its weaknesses. If you lose that over getting the same features in Max, Maya etc then you lose the main reason to stick with LW. At that point then Core is simply a clone of existing apps that already have a track record and you can get a job using now and for the foreseeable future.
What I would like to see is a FOCUS on keeping that LW immediacy with an emphasis of inplementing those other features found in other apps WITHIN that LW workflow...in other words implemented in an INNOVATIVE way. I also want to see things implemented in a way that is FUTURE LOOKING rather then simply throwing in the same physics engine, for example, that Blenders had for years already. By the time Core has these things implemented where will Blender and these other apps be? Afterall these apps arent standing still either.
LW used to be known for innovating and implementing certain things first like HDR lighting, SubDs, bones etc.
Why develop the great technology underlying Core only to fall short on the actual implementatiion? You just cant let the free app (Blender) set the bar and then ask end users to pay.

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 02:03 AM
That Core will ultimately be able to emulate Lightwave so well that even hardcore LW users like Kat will be able to feel at home in it.

I mean, whats the big deal? Arrange the layout to match "layout" buttons, bring up floating windows you can drag to monitor 2 and each floating window can have the tabs arranged how you like in LW. Set some hot keys...done.
If it was as easy as that the I'd agree but I seriously doubt it.
Try the argument the other way around with app XYZ as the target ;)

I.e. what makes XSI an enjoyable experience is a lot more than the layout of the GUI and shortcuts...

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 02:13 AM
NOT easy. Most don't have THAT kind of money in THIS economy. And again - the required subscription fees and higher costs. Sorry Mike, NOT easy.

PS. ANd I'm sure you well know that MOST users will not migrate simply because of THIS reasoning. Your "reason" is not that sound and only there to... antagonize. ;)
Yeah, but I'm not being a cheapskate in return, am I ? ;)
If the only reason to stick around is the hope of getting what is now sold by the competition for a few thousand $$$ for a lot less sometime in the next couple of years (coupled with constant upgrades to get there), then the required subscription and higher cost doesn't hold up either.
And if you work full time in the CG area then it's just a fraction of income anyhow - plus it seems to allow for more opportunities on the job market now.
Sure, buying in is more expensive. But subs aren't that pricey, so it makes little difference in the long run. It's an investment.

Cheers,
Mike

colkai
03-01-2010, 02:15 AM
You only do that if you feel welcomed though. And maybe some don't... (speculation on my part, but there's probably a lot of things that went on for a long time to warrant some reactions like this).

Yeah, call me an apologist if you will ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Valid point and one I agree with.
The simple truth is, CORE will be what it will, Newtek will change their statements to reflect what they think when they want to and the ONLY thing you can do if you don't like it is vote with your wallet.

Me, I did just that, I'm not alone and alas, got yet another PM today asking me for how I opted out. However, it IS the only thing one can do if one is unhappy. Nothing anyone says now is going to change what CORE will be except for Jay. If he changes his mind, CORE changes and everyone else has to suck it up.

That after all, is the nature of things, devs can only develop along a line dictated by those above them. In days gone by, it used to be even more set in stone than that, was a time a coder was just that, a coder, not someone who had any part whatsoever in the design process or could contribute to the tech side (that job was the systems analysts).
I'm sure there are a few of us here who can remember those times, old gits that we are. ;)

No different now, even IF the devs agreed with some of the things being said, it is not their place to get into it.
I decided I was fed up of trying to go against the flow and got out of the pool, a Salmon I am not. :p

colkai
03-01-2010, 02:20 AM
Now, the big question is, why aren't you all watching the hockey game?

Hockey is a WOMEN's game, oh crap, hang on, I played hockey at Grammar School. No, sorry, yes, err, hockey, manly game for manly men. :D

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 02:24 AM
But won't LWHC work similarly as LW9.6 does? I would think you can choose to use CORE with it or without it. And Chuck has said that LWHC is essentially LW10 - and there ARE improvements in this. So I guess they ARE working on both apps.

Keep it simple. Why bother with TWO versions of LW and then Core as well? Instead of devoting resources to graft Core onto LW just have them both support the same file formats, mdd files etc. the same as you can do with other apps. If Core can handle massive amounts of polys that LW cant then whats the point? How about surfacing in Core vs how LW does it etc? Why not implement VPR in LW too instead of Viper? It makes more sense ATM to have VPR in LW then Core since we could use that now AND see a useable and resonable facsimile of how VPR will work in Core later.
I wouldnt mind seeing some of that Core tech in LW 10 but dont force me to have something grafted onto LW t hat really doesnt do anything for it or devotes unnecessary resources to sharing the blood supply between the two. :)

linksys
03-01-2010, 02:25 AM
But won't LWHC work similarly as LW9.6 does? I would think you can choose to use CORE with it or without it. And Chuck has said that LWHC is essentially LW10 - and there ARE improvements in this. So I guess they ARE working on both apps.
Making LWHC working together with Core slows down the whole process.
But yeah i guess that have to be that way because Core will not be so much unified for a couple of years. I am all with SplineGod keep LW and Core decoupled, so you got the good old LW and i will get my unified Core app some day.
The current situation draws both dead. Core because you cant use it in any pipeline and LW because no one wants to develop for a dying horse.

Core should be the unified app released when it really can stand on its own feet and Lightwave should be around for many years to come just because it is great at doing what it is supposed to do. Mixing Core and LW together to justify the existence of Core is a very bad idea.

Whats the benefit of having 3 Apps working together when half of the tools are broken. I say fix and update LW and develop Core to the point where it really gets some punch.

I dont see why someone other then NT is in hurry to get Core released when there is no use for it in any pipeline.

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 02:33 AM
MOST appear willing to give Newtek the benefit of the doubt - with a few dissenters - and will stick around to see what happens.
If you look closely then you'll also see that many of them actually have options available beyond your or my wallet right now. It's not critical to them.
I.e. if I was still heavily in production and I had an arsenal of 3D apps at my disposal then I could easily kick back, grab the popcorn and just wait to see what's going to happen.
Many don't have that option - or don't even want that option.

Perhaps after CORE1 ships they will decide to leave. Until that time, I doubt many (if any) will decide to spend the kind of money you are talking about.
Or switch to Blender ;)


And you know as well as I do that the subscriptions are VERY different. You MUST subscribe or will end up paying more and will not legally be allowed to use the older software should you let that sub lapse. It IS an investment, but a much more costly one and again, this economy is rather nasty - especially here in the States - and will curtail the migrations you are talking about.
You still get to use the current one though. On the other hand, you also have a higher chance of landing a gig. *shrugs*
I wouldn't use the economy as an excuse though. That can change either way. It makes little difference in principle.

Oh, and LW9.6.1 will be around for quite some time and very viable. Since it works on Windows7, I doubt there will be any major problems. And it will be interesting to see just where LW10 (ie. LWHC) fits into this. Perhaps users who upgrade won't even need to use CORE at all for the first few iterations and will STILL have a better product than 9.6.1. We shall see.
Well, thinking about the economy and all that ;) - why not offer LWHC as a separate package then?

Cheers,
Mike

Intuition
03-01-2010, 03:01 AM
If it was as easy as that the I'd agree but I seriously doubt it.
Try the argument the other way around with app XYZ as the target ;)

I.e. what makes XSI an enjoyable experience is a lot more than the layout of the GUI and shortcuts...

Cheers,
Mike

That is true Mike but I can totally imaging Core being able to replicate the maya or XSi experience more then say XSi or Maya can replicate anything else.

An example would be say in XSi you set up scenes using the render region which is essentially VPR. Then if you can get the shortcuts and sticky keys to work the same and say the basic right click menu to show modeling functions whilc using xcv for move, rotate, scale as well as tyui for component selections you are already close to the XSi feel. Couple that with the render tree style node setup for both shaders and rigging and you can make core replicate XSI. Same could be said for maya. If you can make Core call up hotboxes/marking menus of one's own design which is capable of saving buttons on said menu to fire off any modeling or tool function or viewport switches then you can recreate the maya workflow as well. In maya they have weight map painting that shows in either black/white mode or you can switch to colored by bone mode like XSi has.

I think, from what I have seen of Core's UI customization and just having played with it to get it to feel a bit like Maya I already feel like I could make it act like I needed if I wanted it to.

The different themes I have seen in Core also show that one could probably recreate LW classic if one wanted. A button brings up a floating panel with tabs all nested and arranged like classic LW. Navigation could be setup as well. There are little things here and there like scene editor vs outliner or what not but since the UI looks like it could be modified to represent data with any number of custom visual cues I tend to have faith classic LW could be replicated flawlessly in core. Just switching the themes from icons to text in one of the videos made this seem apparent.

Though, it might be just wishful thinking on my part. ;D

There is the case of the tools themselves being effective. Lightwave is still looking for a decent fluid simulator or unified dynamics, meanwhile Maya's was just killing in 2007. Maya people don't talk about those things anymore. They have just worked for some time now.

So you may be right overall in that Core may not get XSi's proportional modeling tool, or Maya's unified dynamics on the first release which is why people use those apps in the first place..... but I think since Core is aiming for Bullet and VPR as a 1.0 standard that Core may have some features here and there people are curious about and when they come looking if they find they can make it act like home then they might stay a bit.

:beerchug:

But I am being optimist here. ;)

Soth
03-01-2010, 03:02 AM
I really doubt that we will have to use 3 apps. LightWave layout got a lot of attention in 9.x cycle, now they are working on modeller, they did complete rewrite. Made workflow better (by removing hub) and I think we can say that future looks bright. (If most of the problems with bugs in 9.x can be blamed on SDK as NewTek says).

So again:
1. NewTek did sh1tloads work on Layout recently, all free.
2. They are doing complete rewrite of Modeller, with some additional features like Bullet and VPR.
3. They will catch up with animation side of things... hopefully sooner than later.

Does that look more compelling? I just changed point of view. Jay, Chuck and developers are not complete morons, guys! It is project that was planned and is implemented now as much as was year and two years ago (before we heard anything about the CORE on this forum).

Seriously they are late, they do not care about marketing as much as they should but they are not complete morons!

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 03:21 AM
There are little things here and there like scene editor vs outliner or what not but since the UI looks like it could be modified to represent data with any number of custom visual cues I tend to have faith classic LW could be replicated flawlessly in core. Just switching the themes from icons to text in one of the videos made this seem apparent.
That's the thing though. I don't think it's about Classic LW in that sense in the first place. It's not about going back.
I.e. I've got a hunch that themes will be used as a loin cloth to hide the fact that many workflow aspects have changed. In that case they're fluff that hide the problem, but don't remove it.
The question is if they need to change existing concepts - or, which ones need to be dropped, which ones kept and which ones expanded upon.

All of this is completely unrelated form the actual functionality in terms of base technology, implemented tools and features.

But you can only make use of them if there is a very big emphasis on getting things done - efficiency (speed) as well as effectiveness (tool set) - which is my understanding of Larrys "immediacy". And that is at least as important as getting the tech in there.
Basically, if you end up being slower in day to day tasks, then changing shortcuts and using a different theme ain't going to change that.

I guess one of the main differences is that people that have primarily stuck with LW can easily see many of the current concepts extend into a unified, coherent and more procedural application.
That view does change if you're more of an app hopper (I was almost going to write app whore - oops :D ).

Cheers,
Mike - grins

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 03:24 AM
Does that look more compelling?
Only if Core could completely replace Modeler in a combined Layout/Core usage scenario.

And having no hub is more or less just cosmetics. I.e. the method of transfer changed (probably because there is little sense in implemented hooks for the "legacy" hub into Core), but the transfer itself remains.

Cheers,
Mike

*Pete*
03-01-2010, 03:27 AM
Yeah that would be great, but what is the power of the big apps that is being brought over to lightwave? no seriously... what is it... and who needs it and when? And then why? then ask can it be cone in LW now, or no?

well, first you have to understand that all of us LW users have different needs.

you pointed out some issues with LW/Layout in the webinar and altough i do agree with you that they are issues that should be sorted out, none of them affect me too much.

i rarely animate and i rarely need the graph editor, the scene editor well enough for my needs and i use so few lights in my scenes that being able to slide past 100% isnt really a problem for me.

so, i could argue against the need of solving those problems for you, against adding that extra power that lets you work better.

for your work (and this is on no way any kind of an insult), LW does the job fast and easy.


but somene else might need to animate a boolean..how do you do it with LW?...with morphs?, sure...it is possible, but wouldnt it be easier to just animate an boolean instead?

if you do archviz and build a big house with 70 windows, and then the architect contacts you again and wants to change the frame of the windows.
wouldnt it be cool to just be able to change the master window to fit the architects new demands and have the remaining 69 instances change to mimic the master?
sure..you can do this with lightwave as well, you can manually replace each of the 69 windows.


these are just two small examples of what other apps can do.

you can say that who needs the nodal everything system, who needs to be able to connect dynamics with...well, surfacing?
who needs the power to create a seed that can grow into a tree in a random shape?...i dont know, i have no idea, but Houdini has this kind of power and some users use it frequently.
its not what i would need, but i wouldnt mind having it there...perhaps i can learn to use some of the power for simple things..like perhaps making a field of grass, with all the variations that grass has completely randomized?
perhaps arrange nodes to create you a full blown big city, based on a few basic objects?



LW can do a LOT, you and the likes of Splinegod and Rob Powers are the example of what LW can do...but LW cant do animated booleans, or animated modelling, without doing it the hard way with morphs.


all i want, is that all that extra power will get under the hood, barely visible for the user...i want that the feel of CORE will be the feel of LW, i want to feel the ease of use becouse 9 out of 10 projects i get are simple and easy to do...but i want the power to handle the 1 out of 10 that is tricky with old LW.

colkai
03-01-2010, 03:29 AM
Those LW veterans moved to those OTHER APPS because these other apps did something that LW could not do. Now NT is apparently moving more in that direction and perhaps it will begin to reverse this trend.

But that is not likely to happen with Core 1.0 is it? Because everyone who is strongly supporting Core or "dissenting" agree, a single unified app with all the power it needs is many years off.

That being the case, just what exactly are those LW "classic" users supposed to do in the meantime as all work on their *current* product has ceased?
Answer, move, because not one other package will sit there waiting for Newtek to complete work in Core in the interim. So when Core is finished, how likely is it they will flood back having adopted a different workflow and invested time and money in their new software?

I don't buy that many who leave will return, now, given we are talking about Core when it is complete, how likely is it you will get many returnees for the "Lightwave with Core 1.0" knowing it is a fledgling product, a work in progress, not meant to be a "full" application at 1.0?
:stumped:

Soth
03-01-2010, 03:30 AM
depends on how much you pay , did you watch the webinar or are you just picking up on random points that take an interest and would core deliver content in time ????????? dually noted !

I did not wanted to do follow up but mate, that point was nothing but random. His point was to make LightWave not able to run in China and India at all.

How to do that? If it gets cracked will they not crack this feature? Or just work with no internet connection? If NewTek will make LightWave connect via internet to get license I will not able to use it in my company as well (defence contractor). What about other Japan? Japan is in Asia too. If Japan is ok what about South Korea? OK, not? If yes will still be OK to allow user use LW if North and South Korea will unify? They will have 20M North Koreans happy to work for 1/10th of Kat's wage....

Soth
03-01-2010, 03:39 AM
Only if Core could completely replace Modeler in a combined Layout/Core usage scenario.
We shall see but I am nothing else than optimistic. :)


And having no hub is more or less just cosmetics. I.e. the method of transfer changed (probably because there is little sense in implemented hooks for the "legacy" hub into Core), but the transfer itself remains.

Smartass. :)

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 03:43 AM
... and i use so few lights in my scenes that being able to slide past 100% isnt really a problem for me.
Well, in this case the issue is that to make all mini-sliders behave the same way, all were limited as opposed to making all of them unlimited.

A feature request was fulfilled, but in a way that breaks many existing uses.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 03:45 AM
His point was to make LightWave not able to run in China and India at all.
And that was certainly his most stupid comment on the whole webinar (sorry kat). Let's face it, global competition can't be wished away.

It doesn't invalidate the other points though.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 03:46 AM
Smartass. :)
That's my middle name (spelled properly of course)

Cheers,
Mike "smart arse" Wolf

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 03:47 AM
Colkai,
You hit the nail on the head. 5 or so years is a long time to wait between an app no longer being developed and one with an iffy future. The logical thing to do is move to another app...especially one that Core is attempting to emulate. You can already get a job using it NOW and for the foreseeable future PLUS youll be learing and app that is also being actively developed. Once youve made that investment and created that little nest what is the incentive to return to something with no track record and an iffy future?

Cageman
03-01-2010, 03:48 AM
That being the case, just what exactly are those LW "classic" users supposed to do in the meantime as all work on their *current* product has ceased?

Uh? Where did you get that from? I'm happily testing LWHC currently....

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 03:50 AM
By work has ceased he means beyond bug fixes.

*Pete*
03-01-2010, 03:58 AM
Im not in any way against adding in other features. I think that great pains should be taken to absolutely preserve that IMMEDIACY in LWs workflow first and foremost.


and again, id agree with you.


the only difference is, is that i believe NT when they say that they need to add an foundation first.

they have to build the SDK to build the tools, they build the history stack and nodal everything system so that they can add the tools into an existing framework (history stack, nodal everything) and then when the tools are in place (ie, working roughly) they can be tuned into working as in LW.


im not a coder, but i really do not believe that it would be easier to first build tools and shape them to work as in LW, and then connect them into a nodal workflow and to build an SDK that connects to all the tools, history stack that works with the tools...and so forth.


i believe the main reason for our differing views is not that one is a fanboy extreme and the other is a fanboy veteran...our differing views come out of how differently we trust NT when they say that the foundation need to be there before the tools.

as soon as the foundation is there, tools can be added and once the tools are there, they can be shaped (workflow)...this is my belief.


perhaps im wrong, i dont know...but we do not differ in the way we look at the necessity for a new code, only in the way it is being implemented...i know the navigation in CORE ticked you of big time, but you must have noticed that it has improved now and is much more like in LW.
we might argue for why the navigation was so different to begin with, but its past history now...i think NT is VERY avare of the danger of alienating users by designing a completely new app with a completely new workflow.

they would lose the current users and not attract new users.

SplineGod
03-01-2010, 04:14 AM
The reality is that Core isnt even close to being beta testable.
If the so called foundation isnt in place then whats to test?
If they need to ask how to implement basic things that already work well in LW then whats it going to be like when things actually do get complex? If they need to ask what it is that gives LW its IMMEDIACY then what the hell have they been developing on for the past several years?
Just fire up LW and do it the same way for now but with the new code base. Thats a good start that is sure to ruffle the fewest feathers. If Core is in such a infant state then at least shoot for good PR if the app isnt there. PROVE that theyve been listening and watching us and what weve done with LW over the years and show that theyre actively striving diligently to preserve those aspects from the get go.
If Core is not even at that stage then close the so called beta, go back to the workshop and keep developing the current LW so that when the time comes I can simply step over to Core with as few problems as possible. I dont care if I have to pay full price. If its "all that" then Ill have no problems paying. Just dont ask for input on stuff that doesnt need or cant take input yet.

OnlineRender
03-01-2010, 04:15 AM
I did not wanted to do follow up but mate, that point was nothing but random. His point was to make LightWave not able to run in China and India at all.

How to do that? If it gets cracked will they not crack this feature? Or just work with no internet connection? If NewTek will make LightWave connect via internet to get license I will not able to use it in my company as well (defence contractor). What about other Japan? Japan is in Asia too. If Japan is ok what about South Korea? OK, not? If yes will still be OK to allow user use LW if North and South Korea will unify? They will have 20M North Koreans happy to work for 1/10th of Kat's wage....

argh crappy win decided to shut it's self down , some Im going to cut the foreplay here . Soth I understand where you are comming from and I understand what you are saying , if you disagree with me by all means I'm a big boy and can take the hit , you have me on Skype so if you need to CHIP please feel free to contact me ,rather than dragging the board into it ! (",)

the point in question was not jap /china/ asia or whatever should not use LW , that's like saying NewYorkers should be banned from drinking Starbucks , it just aint ever going to happen . some of the best artist I know are from overseas and i stress some of the best hackers are also .

I know one guy called Yasha that had to draw by hand the same image 50+ times just to get an interview with a animation company .

OK Kat as per like to say what he thinks and good on him , everyone should have there opps allowed to be aired , that's like china restricting the internet ! oh wait they already do ?

Since we are now talking my ball game , i will give this termonlogy for Kats outakes .

the UK has restrictions on air palution correct , there not allowed to burn x amount of waste , so inturn they ship it 5000+ miles the oposite direction to china or where ever , and they BURN it ..........now is not the same air we breath ?

You can't stop people from cracking software , ffs WIN7 RC was nucked within the first hour or release . Sky TV can be cracked using a square battery ! and so on .

for example NT thought it would be a safe way to secure there product with a stupid usb stick tied to the software " pain in the *** if you need reformat 10 + machines by the way ,there internal " .

but that was cracked by xforce , and not a dongle in sight .

3DC cracked
Zbrush 3.5 CRACKED
Autodesk (everyproduct but i dont have bad fellings about that )
Photoshop / adobe cracked
Kurvs training Hosted and torrented .

trust me when I say this , you cannot stop it , if man built it , man will break it .......end of . . .

Core Builds are already on the net CRACKED ! ................ 2 questions you need to ask , who posted it originally and who cracked it ?

there's where I come in .

The main issue although it took long to get there is that some companies abroad exploit cheap labour to create a product and they don't give a sh!t about anyone else other than there pockets .

I need to go right now but I would like to discuss this further .

Soth
03-01-2010, 04:26 AM
I need to go right now but I would like to discuss this further .

WOW, you know, lets just leave it, I do not really care, I log off after Kat said what he said but I am over it already. :)

peace

Cageman
03-01-2010, 04:48 AM
By work has ceased he means beyond bug fixes.

Not sure what you mean by that sentence, but... LWHC have new features, not just bugfixes.

hrgiger
03-01-2010, 04:52 AM
Thats a good start that is sure to ruffle the fewest feathers.

Is that your biggest concern that Newtek should ruffle the fewest feathers? They shouldn't shake things up from the way we're doing things now. For whatever reason as you and others have pointed out, NT is losing market share and LW jobs are drying up. So they should begin their new 3D application by starting with what now seems to be a losing strategy? Perhaps an application that has a little wider of appeal is merited here. I think focusing solely on a making a shrinking user base may not be the best recipe for success here.

There are very few things about CORE that I haven't seen asked for time and time again by Lightwavers over the years. But the real problem here is the familiarity for some. This is why making CORE as flexible as possible is the best move here. It should allow Lightwavers to work in similar ways that they would work in Lightwave if they wish and for someone who is used to Maya or XSI work in their own way. Pigeon holing us into the Lightwave box from the start is just not smart.

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 04:52 AM
im not a coder, but i really do not believe that it would be easier to first build tools and shape them to work as in LW...
It's not about building at all. Once you're building it's almost to late (unless you don't mind wasting time).

But you can surely design how the complete app should behave before writing a single line of code. And every line of code written after the fact will show that design.
And of course it's not set in stone, but there's a difference between tweaking to fit as opposed to tearing things down because expectations are completely different.

Cheers,
Mike

colkai
03-01-2010, 05:02 AM
Not sure what you mean by that sentence, but... LWHC have new features, not just bugfixes.

But, LWHC is NOT a stand alone product / update to Lw Classic, you need to buy CORE, or wait, it is the other way around now?
In other words, if you want any adances to LW you have to buy the Core upgrade and everyone agrees, LWHC is (well, at present, foward looking, hey I changed my mind) to be dropped once Core is big enough to stand by itself.

The features in LWHC, last I heard, were designed to make it play nice with CORE. Lw9.6.1 is the final 'classic'.

So as Core develops, LWHC gets, (at present) phased out and you WILL adopt Core. So any updates to LW Classic, by definition, are done. As of now, subject to change, forward looking.

Kuzey
03-01-2010, 05:03 AM
That being the case, just what exactly are those LW "classic" users supposed to do in the meantime as all work on their *current* product has ceased?



Not sure what you mean by that sentence, but... LWHC have new features, not just bugfixes.

Well...Colkai was talking about 9.6.1 in that quote you quoted....and it seems you're talking about LWHC.....two different things.

Kuzey

Edit: Colkai sneaked in a reply while I was typing..haha

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 05:10 AM
For whatever reason as you and others have pointed out, NT is losing market share and LW jobs are drying up.
Well, but for whatever reasons are there?
And, why can LW still hold up in certain production scenarios despite being completely outdated technically?

I think focusing solely on a making a shrinking user base may not be the best recipe for success here.
To late for that. And Core isn't going to change it soon either. In the long run, if they play their cards right, maybe.
If you look at the exposed features for 1.0, it's more like "LW10 with the Core plugin".

There are very few things about CORE that I haven't seen asked for time and time again by Lightwavers over the years.
Again, it's not the what but how. I.e. let's say people want native fluid simulations. You can give them that in so many different ways, but only a few really make it useful out there.

But the real problem here is the familiarity for some. This is why making CORE as flexible as possible is the best move here.
Hm... I'd rather have a solid set of well thought out and efficient defaults than the ability to configure every nook and cranny. And with thought out and efficient I mean for the app in question (not for other apps).
Flexibility and configurability in that context can be quite dangers as it can act as a fig leaf for messy basic concepts.

Cheers,
Mike

Kuzey
03-01-2010, 05:13 AM
It's not about building at all. Once you're building it's almost to late (unless you don't mind wasting time).

But you can surely design how the complete app should behave before writing a single line of code. And every line of code written after the fact will show that design.
And of course it's not set in stone, but there's a difference between tweaking to fit as opposed to tearing things down because expectations are completely different.

Cheers,
Mike

Interesting stuff...say Newtek did build all the tools first and they act pretty much like tools in other apps....how easy would it be for them to then modify the workflow to a more LW friendly one after the fact. Would it take 1 month...or 3, or another year to do it...will Newtek care to delay the release of Core until it gets the workflow (fix/update)...or will they just ship it anyway???

It's better to take these things (workflow) into account before you hard code stuff...I would think.

Kuzey

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 05:17 AM
It's better to take these things (workflow) into account before you hard code stuff...I would think.
Well, either that or you make the system so generic that you don't hard code a thing in the tool itself.
That in turn requires a massive configs editor... and that in turn, in combination with the more generic tool aspect required the same design up front. Catch 22.

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
03-01-2010, 05:29 AM
WOW, you know, lets just leave it, I do not really care, I log off after Kat said what he said but I am over it already. :)

peace

DITO, i don't want to talk about other countries or geographical LW USERS , couldn't care less what colour what shape what dialogue what shoe size , how big your PEN'IS ,arts art !

what I would like to see is an even playing field !

what you are going too see is large studios closing down and smaller operations being ran , for example a team of 4 people MAX ,excuse the PUN ..

I know why you are all pissed , it's because my AVATAR is the shinnzle ! :P

Kuzey
03-01-2010, 05:34 AM
Talking about workflow issues...I do believe there is an example in the viper Core video :hey:

Normally...one would select a set of polygons and press "q" to change the surface and then open the texture editor to either apply a surface preset or manually create one.

Now, remembering what I saw in the video, in Core, you create your surface first before applying it via drag and drop to the selected polygons. That seems a bit clumsy to me...it would be better if you can still press "q" and have it open up in the right side panel....ready to edit.

But the drag and drop idea...is a good one for surface preset library. Have no polygons selected in your model, grab a preset and drag it over your model....each surface under mouse cursor gets highlighted as you move...until you drop it on the surface you want...not sure if this is in Core yet??

That would save time from having to select surfaces one at a time in the surface editor and then applying presets or copy/pasting surfaces.

Kuzey

Kuzey
03-01-2010, 05:41 AM
Well, either that or you make the system so generic that you don't hard code a thing in the tool itself.
That in turn requires a massive configs editor... and that in turn, in combination with the more generic tool aspect required the same design up front. Catch 22.

Cheers,
Mike

Interesting, what was the first build of the Core beta like. Was it generic and did not much at all...or was the first tool set already developed to a point that it could do stuff and Newtek went back and refined/recoded the tools to fit the response from HC members?

Kuzey

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 05:46 AM
Interesting, what was the first build of the Core beta like.
I appreciate the direct question but I'm not going to answer that outside of the HC forums, sorry.

However, if you've followed the thread then you should get a hunch ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Kuzey
03-01-2010, 05:54 AM
I appreciate the direct question but I'm not going to answer that outside of the HC forums, sorry.

However, if you've followed the thread then you should get a hunch ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Haha....I had enough of hunches...I want a direct answer..damn it :D:D

:hey:

Kuzey

MentalFish
03-01-2010, 05:55 AM
Where's jin?


little blue type

:ohmy: those one liners made me :D

I wanted to write something in big letters and be angry at something or someone, but now I cant, its all your fault shrox :twak:

Soth
03-01-2010, 05:57 AM
:d

erikals
03-01-2010, 06:39 AM
here's how i see it,...

Core v1 will be released, people will then ask themselves, ok, what will i use it for?
simultaneously, HardCore (LW10) will be released, people will then ask themselves, what's the update?

...and that worries me.

cresshead
03-01-2010, 07:04 AM
But that is not likely to happen with Core 1.0 is it? Because everyone who is strongly supporting Core or "dissenting" agree, a single unified app with all the power it needs is many years off.

That being the case, just what exactly are those LW "classic" users supposed to do in the meantime as all work on their *current* product has ceased?
Answer, move, because not one other package will sit there waiting for Newtek to complete work in Core in the interim. So when Core is finished, how likely is it they will flood back having adopted a different workflow and invested time and money in their new software?

I don't buy that many who leave will return, now, given we are talking about Core when it is complete, how likely is it you will get many returnees for the "Lightwave with Core 1.0" knowing it is a fledgling product, a work in progress, not meant to be a "full" application at 1.0?
:stumped:

look at modo though..it's STILL not a full on app...an at version 1 was just a modeling app..people WENT to it from lightwave [a full app] as it offered stuff they could not find/do in lightwave modeler...

so how's that ANY different to what maybe on offer with CORE version1.0?

I would agree that 'currently' core alpha is not a modeling powerhouse as an example..but there's a long way to go before a shipping version rolls thru the newtek doors.

If core offers some compelling reasons to want to be in it then your going to get people migrating TOWARD it from lightwave and OTHER apps.

that i believe is the 'plan', of course it all hangs on what core ships like
and how it compares to say Blender 2.6 [due out around the same period]

also we're seeing other evolving niche apps such as:
Bonzai 3d
http://www.formz.com/products/bonzai3d.html

http://www.formz.com/images/products/bonzai3d/layout/home14.jpg
http://www.formz.com/images/products/bonzai3d/layout/documentationBKG.jpg

http://moi3d.com/
http://moi3d.com/images/anchor_thing_screenshot_thumb.png

and who knows what coming at siggraph 2010?

as for core becoming a cheaper clone of 3dsmax/maya/houdini..i'm ALL for it!
that's going to put some diehard lw users noses out of joint but others will whooop and dance in circles of JOY
if they can have a 'maya/max' clone but cheaper and runs on 3 operating systems!

cresshead
03-01-2010, 07:14 AM
Interesting, what was the first build of the Core beta like. Was it generic and did not much at all...or was the first tool set already developed to a point that it could do stuff and Newtek went back and refined/recoded the tools to fit the response from HC members?

Kuzey

core on first alpha release was a 'new app' so EVERYTHING was a new take on how to build a 3d app...from looks, navigation, shortcuts, creation..that put some people into a "angry joe" mood...[guess who]...since then core has used this feedback to bring onboard 'THE good lightwavey things' as per user feedback form the members.

is core a transparent 'lightwave style app now'?
no...but it is getting there...it can also look and feel like maya/max

is the general u.i. 'feel' there...yeah i'd say so...much more than the alienness of say blender 2.5 alpha 1 for example.

cresshead
03-01-2010, 07:16 AM
here's how i see it,...

Core v1 will be released, people will then ask themselves, ok, what will i use it for?
simultaneously, HardCore (LW10) will be released, people will then ask themselves, what's the update?

...and that worries me.

i'd say we're 6 to 8 months away from that point...lots of dev time to deliver a app that can DELIVER.

newtek won't let it out the door until it's worth putting it on the reviewers desk.

Cageman
03-01-2010, 07:19 AM
But, LWHC is NOT a stand alone product / update to Lw Classic, you need to buy CORE, or wait, it is the other way around now?
In other words, if you want any adances to LW you have to buy the Core upgrade and everyone agrees, LWHC is (well, at present, foward looking, hey I changed my mind) to be dropped once Core is big enough to stand by itself.

You can view it this way: It is an update you have to pay for, and CORE is bundled with it. You can see it the other way around as well, but it doesn't really matter since you can totaly dissregard CORE if LW with new features+buggfixes is what you want.




The features in LWHC, last I heard, were designed to make it play nice with CORE. Lw9.6.1 is the final 'classic'.

Integrated Colorspace (work in sRGB, Linear, Cineon etc) also supports custom LUTs, new buffers such as GI, Normal, Ambient Occlusion... and there are some more in the works.




So as Core develops, LWHC gets, (at present) phased out and you WILL adopt Core. So any updates to LW Classic, by definition, are done. As of now, subject to change, forward looking.

CORE will, eventually make classic LW obsolete, but not with v1.0...

Cageman
03-01-2010, 07:24 AM
Well...Colkai was talking about 9.6.1 in that quote you quoted....and it seems you're talking about LWHC.....two different things.

Kuzey

Edit: Colkai sneaked in a reply while I was typing..haha

LWHC = Classic LW with bugfixes + new features (and NOOO...the new features are NOT limited to facilitating data-exchange with CORE). *sigh*

Yes...you have to pay for that update and for the upgrade price you get CORE with it.... OR, you view it the other way around... you purchase CORE and get LWHC (LW10) bundled. In any case, LWHC does NOT, in whole or in part, require CORE to function.

OnlineRender
03-01-2010, 07:26 AM
Quote WARS , away to play Heavy Rain .....ohh wait if you have PS3 your gimped !

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 07:26 AM
In any case, LWHC is does NOT in whole or in part, require CORE to function.
So maybe it would be a good idea to de-bundle Core from LWHC and offer it to people that have no use for Core now. It would at least keep them in the loop. And who knows, Core 2.0 might be more to their liking...

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
03-01-2010, 07:31 AM
you'll like this...well probably not but it's my 'take' on lightwave from 1999 to 2008..[before core]

when i was looking for a pro 3d app in 1999 i tried out maya, 3dsmax,softimage, lightwave and cinema4d...when i say 'tried out' back then you had to jump on a train and GO somewhere to see it in action..i went to London as SGi world HQ where they had lightwave, maya, max and soft demoing...
later on i also went to a andy bishop demo of lightwave around the time of lost in space and also to a 3dsmax studio in london to see it working...

what i came away with opinion wise was..

maya looks cool but was pretty expensive [6,500]
lightwave renders looked cool but also looked really only great at flying boxes [space, planes] and lacked any 'wow' character tools worth thinking about
softimage was just crazy money...16,000
3dsmax 2.5 WITH character studio whilst not having a great renderer did 'ave a good go' at anything and character studio just blew me away...

i bought 3dsmax...and character studio of course!

later..i added lightwave 7..and now have 2 seats of it...mainly for sci fi space stuff...which of course IS flying boxes.

Lightwave Core is not about 'flying boxes'
It's about making a 3d app that can rub shoulders alongside 3dsmax, maya, softimage [xsi]

it's time to put away the flying boxes and get a full on app into deveopment that can deliver into more areas than lightwave 9.6

-FP-
03-01-2010, 07:32 AM
Eh? This is what I want (next time I update):
An application that addresses well-known Lightwave issues, but looks and feels EXACTLY like Lightwave does now. If it does not look and feel and and work EXACTLY as Lightwave has for years, it loses most of its appeal.

CORE, LWBFD, development issues, mean nothing to users like me, who produce low budget commercials in a hurry. It would be great if some features were improved, but will it be necessary to change the interface?

Myagi
03-01-2010, 07:32 AM
if you do archviz and build a big house with 70 windows, and then the architect contacts you again and wants to change the frame of the windows.
wouldnt it be cool to just be able to change the master window to fit the architects new demands and have the remaining 69 instances change to mimic the master?
sure..you can do this with lightwave as well, you can manually replace each of the 69 windows.

That comparison is not quite accurate. In that sense LW already works with instances (in fact it purely works with instances), you load lwo objects (or layers or objects) in Layout. You can place as many clones (ie. instances) you want, and then edit a single lwo object and all change.

Your Core/MAX/Maya instances are no different, they need to be separate objects to be instances, the only convenient difference being that you can do this in a single scene and app without multiple files. You can't have a window frame within the same geometry as the house (ie. merged vertices with the walls) and still have the frame being an instance of a window frame object.

(unless something changed lately in that regard in MAX/Maya)

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 07:34 AM
it's time to put away the flying boxes and get a full on app into deveopment that can deliver into more areas than lightwave 9.6
Is anybody arguing that point?

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
03-01-2010, 07:38 AM
So maybe it would be a good idea to de-bundle Core from LWHC and offer it to people that have no use for Core now. It would at least keep them in the loop. And who knows, Core 2.0 might be more to their liking...

Cheers,
Mike

Well... what is the point of that, really? I mean... people would still have to pay for it, and the upgradeprice is the same? I mean... what is it to loose rather than gain from getting CORE bundled (for the same price a new upgrade would cost?)

Soth
03-01-2010, 07:40 AM
it's time to put away the flying boxes and get a full on app into deveopment that can deliver into more areas than lightwave 9.6

Well said! When bullet will get implemented it need to be done so well that we will have fluids and wave solution in the CORE, not half baked sh1t that we sometimes get. (Bullet is have them soon)

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 07:44 AM
Well... what is the point of that, really? I mean... people would still have to pay for it, and the upgradeprice is the same?
Who says it needs to be the same? Especially since HC apparently does not get the full version treatment?
I mean, it would imply that Core is worth the difference in price ;)

Cheers,
Mike

jasonwestmas
03-01-2010, 07:47 AM
Bad Kittaaay! Meooow.

MentalFish
03-01-2010, 07:54 AM
Quick question to y'all, what do you think GSD stands for?

http://mentalfish.com/uploads/GSD.png

Get sh1t done. It's one of the reasons why I keep coming back to Modeler. Regardless of other apps and their great features, I keep going back to Modeler to GSD. Of course one aspect to that is because I know the ins and outs of the software, but still, the gizmo-less immediacy of Modeler makes it fly circles around many other solutions.

So when people are talking about what is the essence of LightWave, to me it is all about the GSD mentality, which also is how I understand what Kelly is talking about. I hope the GSD style makes it into Core. I don't care if the app has both text and icons, or the same theme as LW, but if it does not have the GSD factor, I'll most likely end up going for Houdini. It has all the procedural goodies that Core seems to be aiming for, and in a production proven solution. If Core turns out to be Houdini-like under the hood, but with classic LW GSD workflow on top, then w00t, 1337 and so on! Since I got a refund for the HC membership (Core still doesn't running on my Mac Pro), I will not know until its out the door and available as a demo.

Kuzey
03-01-2010, 07:56 AM
LWHC = Classic LW with bugfixes + new features (and NOOO...the new features are NOT limited to facilitating data-exchange with CORE). *sigh*

Yes...you have to pay for that update and for the upgrade price you get CORE with it.... OR, you view it the other way around... you purchase CORE and get LWHC (LW10) bundled. In any case, LWHC does NOT, in whole or in part, require CORE to function.

LWHC is just a transitional app. There won't be a LWHC2 and a choice between it or Core 3 or 4...the standalone app version. Yes, LWHC might get a few features but it's not going to get full features...like new CA tools...that would be madness, and hope the code can be easily ported to Core. Work on the CA tools within Core and from the ground up....don't use a middle man. I mean, LWHC can't even handle high polygon meshes that Core can...one would expect that to be the first feature LWHC would have got??

This is how I see it, the more they work on LWHC, the longer Core is going to take to be complete....a standalone app. Update the Collada file formats for LW so you can export old lwo/lws files into Core with as much information as you can and leave it at that.

Do most of the development for Core and don't waste time on a stop gap measure.

Kuzey

OnlineRender
03-01-2010, 07:58 AM
you need to take into consideration that Core can be cutomized and tweaked

SBowie
03-01-2010, 08:08 AM
By popular request (and to save wear and tear on my mouse) these two very similar threads have been merged.

Lightwolf
03-01-2010, 08:10 AM
By popular request (and to save wear and tear on my mouse) these two very similar threads have been merged.
Get a dual monitor set-up ;)

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
03-01-2010, 08:14 AM
By popular request (and to save wear and tear on my mouse) these two very similar threads have been merged.

you mean you took 2 separate threads..that could communicate via a hub [internet] and merged them into a unified new thread...CORE that sounds like a good idea! :D

SBowie
03-01-2010, 08:17 AM
Get a dual monitor set-up ;)I have four, actua ... oh wait, one of them died yesterday, so I only have three - but unlike some (apparently :p), I have other work to do and cannot devote all of my screen real estate (or time) to the forums.

MentalFish
03-01-2010, 08:17 AM
you mean you took 2 separate threads..that could communicate via a hub [internet] and merged them into a unified new thread...CORE that sounds like a good idea! :D

Nah, multithreading is the future :D

Larry_g1s
03-01-2010, 08:54 AM
the canadians can suck on it for a while. I am sick of the america bashing in this country, its borderline nazi-facism. And its totally un-canadian and they don't even realize it.Thanks. :beerchug:

kurv
03-01-2010, 08:56 AM
Well I did not have time to read all 19 pages of this. But wanted to say.

Kelly and I talked about this before the interview we wanted this to be VERY pro LW and Pro LW CORE. Bottom line, Kelly has some concerns about CORE, he makes his living with LW as do a lot of us, trust me, I am concerned as well.

But as we said in the interview, the addition of Rob has alleviated a lot of my concerns. I am pulling for NewTek.

If you think after all these years of fighting, writing books, and publishing more videos on LightWave than any other company period, I want something bad to happen to NewTek your crazy.

So while this discussion gets heated, please keep in mind a few things:

1. We did our best to make the discussion on CORE professional, I hope it came across that way in the interview. But as the ILWUG is an unbiased organization regarding CORE, we still needed to cover the topic. We had over 600 people in the class and I will say the comments were about 50/50. Just reporting the news...

2. While you may not like Kelly's comments, he is an Emmy award winning artist and he does a lot more than space shots in LW. So dont fully discount what he says.

3. As we touched on a little in the interview. The LW community has been plagued with some issues like fan-ism to a fault, haters that just wont flush, and marketing from other companies that simply lie. What we need is a touch of open mindedness from both sides of the CORE discussion.

Just my opinion :)

zarti
03-01-2010, 09:00 AM
That comparison is not quite accurate. In that sense LW already works with instances (in fact it purely works with instances), you load lwo objects (or layers or objects) in Layout. You can place as many clones (ie. instances) you want, and then edit a single lwo object and all change.

Your Core/MAX/Maya instances are no different, they need to be separate objects to be instances, the only convenient difference being that you can do this in a single scene and app without multiple files. You can't have a window frame within the same geometry as the house (ie. merged vertices with the walls) and still have the frame being an instance of a window frame object.

(unless something changed lately in that regard in MAX/Maya)
agree, that's not a big difference between them.
but, what should i do IF i want some of them randomly open @various degrees ??
lets assume that i liked the various rotations i gave them MANUALLY in modeler (!!), what if my clients asks for another variation of them all ??

sorry, but 'workflows' like that should be part of Dark Ages or of the Fallen Ones. :)

p.s.:there are other areas/ways where our creativity should be consumed.
unfortunately, LW has eaten too much from us for resolving/finding tricks and i wish for core to be another story.

cresshead
03-01-2010, 09:06 AM
haters that just wont flush,...

can we call 'em 'floaters' :D

SBowie
03-01-2010, 09:08 AM
Well I did not have time to read all 19 pages of this.You really didn't miss very much that hasn't been stated repeatedly before. ;)


Just my opinion :)And thanks for offering it.

Myagi
03-01-2010, 09:10 AM
agree, that's not a big difference between them.
but, what should i do IF i want some of them randomly open @various degrees ??
lets assume that i liked the various rotations i gave them MANUALLY in modeler (!!), what if my clients asks for another variation of them all ??

sorry, but 'workflows' like that should be part of Dark Ages or of the Fallen Ones. :)

I wasn't arguing for or against anything, I just sometimes get the impression that "magical" features are expected :)

Instancing works on an object level, there is no magic involved that allows you to have a single (merged) mesh yet have instancing inside it, that was all I meant. It's not, AFAIK, going to be something spectacular like those solid modeling apps (SolidWorks ?), that's a completely different ballpark of 3D apps.


edit: even if in theory one could write some kind of auto-merge proxy object or multi object auto-merge modifier thingie for this particular case, but that's different discussion

Larry_g1s
03-01-2010, 09:12 AM
I believe that Core will be capable enough to act just like almost any app out there. The UI structure seems malleable enough to not only appeal to Maya hotbox/marking menu people or the multipanel mode treatment you get in XSi or Modo but also the main window + tabs and floating panel + tabs method that Lightwave has.

My point?

That Core will ultimately be able to emulate Lightwave so well that even hardcore LW users like Kat will be able to feel at home in it.

I mean, whats the big deal? Arrange the layout to match "layout" buttons, bring up floating windows you can drag to monitor 2 and each floating window can have the tabs arranged how you like in LW. Set some hot keys...done.:agree:


In the end no matter what points are made Core is the future of NT.:agree:

SBowie
03-01-2010, 09:30 AM
the canadians can suck on it for a while. I am sick of the america bashing in this country, its borderline nazi-facism. And its totally un-canadian and they don't even realize it.


Thanks. :beerchug:

I have seen some stupid and un-characteristically red-neck statements issuing from my compatriots at times, and found the whole "Own the Podium" thing (the motto, not the program) odious. Such statements are certainly not representative, in my view having lived my life in three different provinces of this country.

That said, some of it was just good-natured cross border rivalry, well taken by both sides (keeping in mind that for most of the years between games many times these guys play with each other more than against each other). I listened to an interview with an American player who put things in perspective, stating roughly 'We play with these guys all the time and are good friends - but when we play the Canadian team, we hate them.'

Of course, the occasional bouts of nastiness from morons does happen, but is hardly a rarity on the other side of the border either. That said, a spirit that I think is much more truly representative of the way Canadians feel about their neighbours to the south was demonstrated when the largely Canadian crowd at the women's hockey awards raised a raucuous chant of "U-S-A!" while the (understandably somewhat disappointed) American players got their bouquets. As Ryan Miller received his silver medal, the Canadian audience joined in a well-deserved standing ovation.

*Pete*
03-01-2010, 09:53 AM
By popular request (and to save wear and tear on my mouse) these two very similar threads have been merged.

So this discussion is multithreaded?

That would explain the sudden increase in my read/write speed.

mikala
03-01-2010, 09:55 AM
"the canadians can suck on it for a while. I am sick of the america bashing in this country, its borderline nazi-facism. And its totally un-canadian and they don't even realize it."

Who are the "iceholes" now? To quote one of your ridiculous TV personalities.

animotion
03-01-2010, 10:24 AM
Exactly Mike! Apparently were supposed to "help" in a very specific manner defined by a very narrow definition of what that means. :)
Its also seeing this one step forward two steps sideways that makes watching the Core development a very frustrating experience. We see things done like the reveal done in such a terrible way and were told that NT apologized so its ok. Yet we see the same pattern repeated again and were supposed to swallow it each time and be nothing but congratulatory. I see this same pattern repeated with premature annoucements or releases of LW versions and having to wait a long time before having a stable version. The last time was LW9.5. NT apologized for that too. Now Core. Its delayed once, delayed again and so on. Im not against the delay but if theyve truely learned their lesson which they claim to have done then why a repeat again and again?
Who is setting these artificial deadlines? I know that if I were to committ to a deadline and miss it twice Id probably be fired. Why are we not allowed to use the same measuring rod directed at NT?

I am all for seeing Core leap over the current LW BIG TIME! but sadly I must agree with your statements here. I am also all for staying positive and not bashing NT but sometimes the truth hurts. I don't think anyone here can say that you fabricated your statements in this post.

Maybe things will turn around with Rob Powers having a hand in shaping Core. :thumbsup:

VonBon
03-01-2010, 10:42 AM
what we need to do is realize that we as "individuals" will not get CORE to
be exactly what we want as an individual. plain and simple it is not
possible because there are to many views as to what individuals want
CORE to be.

If your trying to make a NEW program, well things have to change. for one CORE it is going to be a unified app.
you can't expect that the work flow is going to be the same as it is in current LW. its not possible. You have
essentially double the amount of possible commands, and this is just from unifying the app.

Me personally i do think that LW96 is still of great value and should still be
marketed as such.

Just as an example i'll use somthing that SplineGod is looking to preserve which is LWs "Immediacy".
Im no programmer but im sure this statement to them could be so broad it could mean anything.

(i know Spline God could also be keeping it vague since were not in HC)

i geuss what im saying mainly is that all this bickering back and forth
is not getting us anywhere, esspecially when the same thing is being said over and over.
We gotta start being "specific"

Explain why you "believe" that your opinion is the best course of action.
(and not with a few words)

your not RIGHT or WRONG, its your opinion. we all got one and NEWTEK
will have to decide what to do with them.

and just to put out there, if people do go and purchase
another program just because they mad about the direction of CORE,
well if its an AD product from my understanding they have a "mandatory"
yearly subscription FEE i think it's like $1500. Do your math and you have
bought three upgrades with NEWTEK can you say CORE v3. if it takes
three years to fully finish CORE and if your with AD you have spent $4500.

o yeah if you don't get the subscription and you wanna upgrade, well
geuss what, you have to pay the FULL PRICE for the app again.

Thats "Pimpology" at its finest. and we would be the Tricks.