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silviotoledo
02-26-2010, 07:18 PM
http://www.maxon.net/products/modules/modules/mocca-3/muscle-system.html

It seems all the other applications have muscles...

Lightwave still don't.

GraphXs
02-26-2010, 08:30 PM
LW has auto muscles for bones. it's not perfect and I believe it only works on one axis(pitch). It does however work and it been their for along time. Morphs can also be used with bone rotation in LW. Don't remember how its set-up. Set driven Key? motion modifier?

erikals
02-26-2010, 09:22 PM
hope to see something like this in not too long....

Dodgy
02-26-2010, 09:32 PM
LW has auto muscles for bones. it's not perfect and I believe it only works on one axis(pitch). It does however work and it been their for along time. Morphs can also be used with bone rotation in LW. Don't remember how its set-up. Set driven Key? motion modifier?

It now works on multiple axes if you use joints. However, it doesn't have wobble when the muscle is relaxed, but that C4d muscle doesn't seem to either.

I've been thinking about how you might do muscle wobble, using weight maps and a mixer node and soft or HardFX, but it would require a lot of nodes...

jin choung
02-26-2010, 09:36 PM
LW has auto muscles for bones. it's not perfect and I believe it only works on one axis(pitch). It does however work and it been their for along time. Morphs can also be used with bone rotation in LW. Don't remember how its set-up. Set driven Key? motion modifier?

no.... nonono....

completely different thing... lw is lastlastlast generation simply inflating the parent bone's deformation...

this is like maya's muscles where it calculates actual collisions with muscle objects and (if like maya's system) generates secondary effects like realistic SLIDING of skin on top of muscle and jiggling.

totally different.

jin

Dodgy
02-26-2010, 10:45 PM
no.... nonono....

completely different thing... lw is lastlastlast generation simply inflating the parent bone's deformation...

this is like maya's muscles where it calculates actual collisions with muscle objects and (if like maya's system) generates secondary effects like realistic SLIDING of skin on top of muscle and jiggling.

totally different.

jin

umm, I don't think it is... Did you watch the video? Muscles pass through each other, there's no wobbling when relaxed, it basically doesn't look any different to LW's inflating bones, the only thing it does do is the sliding under skin effect, which you could do with a scaling effector instead.

jin choung
02-26-2010, 11:07 PM
umm, I don't think it is... Did you watch the video? Muscles pass through each other, there's no wobbling when relaxed, it basically doesn't look any different to LW's inflating bones, the only thing it does do is the sliding under skin effect, which you could do with a scaling effector instead.

i wouldn't have commented if i didn't watch the video.

muscles don't necessarily collision detect with each other.

they collision detect against the SKIN SURFACE. that's where it counts. and the more collisions you have to simulate and solve for the slower the solution.

the muscles are collision volumes that inflate and stretch according to their procedures and then collide and deform and slide under the bound skin. the very fact that there ARE collision volumes tells you that it's an entirely different class of effect than lw's simple bulger.

bouncing and jiggling of muscles is yet another feature on top of the volume collision and you're right that there's no evidence of the bouncing and jiggling the muscle volumes.

but still, the collision volumes alone are a huuuuuuuuuuuge difference from lw's simple bones "bicep bulge" which is a feature from the 90s and claimed by every app under the sun.

when people talk about "muscles" in this day and age, NOBODY but NOBODY is talkin' about the relics that lw has.

we're talking about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAIToSGPQTQ&feature=related or better.

jin

Mr Rid
02-26-2010, 11:21 PM
Still better than any LW jury rigging-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76rfIlRNmc0
and this was posted 3 years ago.

GraphXs
02-27-2010, 12:14 AM
Jin, I wasn't saying LW muscle system did the "same thing" as the "object based muscle system" the other apps have. I was just saying it has a way to (fake) a muscle in an arm driven by the bones for simple bulging. It would be nice to have a system like the C4D one or the Maya one. Guess we gotta to wait for Core...

jin choung
02-27-2010, 12:23 AM
Jin, I wasn't saying LW muscle system did the "same thing" as the "object based muscle system" the other apps have. I was just saying it has a way to (fake) a muscle in an arm driven by the bones for simple bulging.

right but the results are so drastically different and at such disparate levels of sophistication so that even that comparison struck me as stretching it...

: )

imo, it is akin to comparing the space shuttle to a bone thrown heavenward in kubrickian glee.

jin

Dodgy
02-27-2010, 05:08 AM
But the result is still only half done. The Maya one is complete. It seems odd to leave it only half finished when it's not that hard to add jiggle, when the hard part has been done....

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 06:14 AM
it's ok muscles passes each other to prevent high time calculating.

The difference from using bones is that muscles are a bit more complex cause it has different shape, 2 pivots and a floating point in the middle.

Muscle bone only have 1 pivot that you can constrain throught IK or target in a complex boring time consuming rig that will not work anymore when you will have a big amount of bones.

I tried several muscle bones inside a character and the deformation didn't work anymore while it use to work in less bones amount.

effector would help if it doesn't crash when multiple effectors are in use.


Jiggle effect is the easy part to do in lightwave. The Only problem we have is that one object does not deform the other.


See this test with soft FX. Press claculate...

probiner
02-27-2010, 06:22 AM
funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0akFtKiayo&feature=related

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 06:29 AM
Here the jiggle effect, what is the easy part in lightwave.

We also can add a null with spring ( Mike's Optmus Prime Green Plugin )

To control the middle balance of the muscle, so we will not need CALCULATE what will be good for realtime feedback.


The skin deforming is a problem in lightwave.

The Dennis node works fine but requires the subdivision order to be FIRST, not LAST.

So we need Newtek doing changes for muscles.

Dodgy
02-27-2010, 06:34 AM
Yeah, it's a big job we'll probably only see in Core.

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 06:48 AM
Here I did the skin beeing deformed by the muscle inside.

The problem is that soft fx does not have a DAMP force to smooth more the movement.

polyfit plugin has an AREA smooth and also a nice object deform, but it does not work with weightmaps, what makes wrong results when the object comes near itself.


Any ideas to smooth soft fx?


:newtek: NEWTEK TEAM????????

RebelHill
02-27-2010, 06:56 AM
Its just NOT gonna happen. Core, eventually, quite likely... but LW as we know it is not gonna have muscles ever I shouldnt think.

Personally Id rather see deorms, and the solving of complex rigs optimised and accelerated before NT even THINK about muscles, its just not a priority feature imo.

erikals
02-27-2010, 07:15 AM
UV morph for skin slide,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85719

regular morph for skin slide,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVMsQ4DV6WA

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 07:41 AM
Taron does displacement morphing driven by bones in Messiah since a long time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFxMWP7Ciuc&feature=related

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 07:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luSOPpQ_CgM

This one is a bit old!
I wonder how coul'd we rplicae this effect in lightwave.

cresshead
02-27-2010, 07:48 AM
3dsmax for muscle set up
http://area.autodesk.com/tutorials/creating_muscles_in_3ds_max

erikals
02-27-2010, 08:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luSOPpQ_CgM

This one is a bit old!
I wonder how coul'd we rplicae this effect in lightwave.

mouth deformation (morph) is bad, but other stuff is good.

as i recall he did the forehead wrinkles using morphs and displacements

jin choung
02-27-2010, 04:46 PM
you can fake effects like this to a degree with morphs... that's how it's been done up to now... but yeah, muscles are a desirable if expensive feature.

also, a really good implementation will barely read as simulation... having to hit a calculate button all the time is not desirable. that's why i'm still kind of wondering just how maya muscles work... is it just super fast collision calculation or something more akin to a super fancy - dang... forgot the name... what's our lw tool that you can make a ball go through a pipe and deform the pipe like a giraffe is swallowing a boulder?

anyhoo, yeah, it's certainly not what we have in lw currently labeled as "muscle" and it's really nice and yeah, in all likelihood is not on the books for lw legacy.

jin

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 04:56 PM
I guess Newtek have the technology for realtime deform in EFFECTOR.

If add an EFFECTOR for each muscle vertice we will have a nice skin deform in realtime.

Mr. Mike Green. Would you be able to write an script to add one effector to each object vertice?


Mr. Dennis Pont Nodes also does realtime object displacement, but it requires the sub-d order set to first, not last :( so it's not usefull for characters.

Press play to the effector scene and calculate to the other scene

erikals
02-27-2010, 05:02 PM
polyfit plugin has an AREA smooth and also a nice object deform, but it does not work with weightmaps, what makes wrong results when the object comes near itself.

um, not sure what you're saying here,
could you show an example?
(cause i didn't notice wrong results when testing some time back)

erikals
02-27-2010, 05:07 PM
Mr. Dennis Pont Nodes also does realtime object displacement, but it requires the sub-d order set to first, not last :( so it's not usefull for characters.

...just wondering, are you referring to the realtime Boolean?

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 05:12 PM
I added Polyfit, but when the arm comes near the forearm, or, maybe, the chest, Polifit attracts that area too. That's why we need weightmap fintering polyfit.

It seems it recognize point selection sets, buts this feature is not working. Probably 'cause Polifit is not updated to LW 9

silviotoledo
02-27-2010, 06:47 PM
FROM: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84387&page=9&highlight=muscles

displacement but the Ball scaling is driven by
a bone in Item Motion node editor,

61510 61511 <-- Click Attach

Samples by dpont



And I attached a sample scene I did that shows lightwave can work with multiple muscles ( press calculate ). It just need an skin deform solution.

The nodal one is interesting.

erikals
02-27-2010, 07:31 PM
tried to find that thread, thanks http://erikalstad.com/backup/anims.php_files/smile.gif

not 100% related to this thread, but somewhat,
C_worm (muscle modeling tips, interesting)
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8329

also had this idea for modeling overlapping muscles,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V406Fju208

erikals
02-27-2010, 09:49 PM
testing the scene you made silviotoledo,...

having some problems with Boolean deformations,
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=991989#post991989

erikals
02-27-2010, 10:06 PM
---

erikals
02-27-2010, 10:23 PM
I added Polyfit, but when the arm comes near the forearm, or, maybe, the chest, Polifit attracts that area too. That's why we need weightmap fintering polyfit.

It seems it recognize point selection sets, buts this feature is not working. Probably 'cause Polifit is not updated to LW 9

um,... so you're saying that the SplineGod tutorial don't work?
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/muscle_deformer.mov

silviotoledo
02-28-2010, 10:37 AM
it works, but it's limited to some situations.

you can't approach the mesh near itself or Polifit will attract it in wrong result. Polifit needs update. I tried to e-mail the creator, but it seems the site is too old.

Maybe Mike Green can tell us a little about the amount of work needed to add EFFECTOR to each object vertice, 'cause effector displaces the skin nicelly in realtime.

I also really wish to hear something from Newtek team. It seems it's not too complicated to implement a solution while real muscles would be in development for the future.

erikals
02-28-2010, 04:22 PM
not sure, can't find the problem...
here's a test i did btw...

Mr Rid
03-01-2010, 09:29 PM
Some rough tests from a few years ago, using ClothFX for jiggle but was problematic. I applied ClothFX to a low res mesh for reasonable calcs, then applied MD metaPlug to a high res mesh (Metalink rarely works as well). SoftFX might work but lacks gravity.

82740
82741

Dodgy
03-01-2010, 09:54 PM
SoftFX might work but lacks gravity.


You can use the Input>Force Direction to simulate gravity...

erikals
03-23-2010, 10:38 AM
might want to check this webinar,
https://www2.gotomeeting.com/register/721081931

silviotoledo
03-26-2010, 12:36 PM
Mr. Rid

The test is great! It will work for some kind of "creatures".
Would you share your Cloth FX settings?

I've used metalink technique to softbody a monster, with soft fx, but it really needs elements inside to get realism.

I'm just impressed with what Digital Domain did with the dragon hydra monster in " Jack something and the Olimpians - Lightning Thieve ". Cool muscles and softbodies.

But it seams LW will not have that kind of thing untill someone decide to port a muscle system to CORE in the future. But it also seems CORE needs one more year to be usable and no effort in CA will be done until there.

Hey Erikals!

I wish I coul'd do this webinar.
Actually I'm an artist without job :(.
Think I need to do a new portfolio and try a job first.
These are jobs I use to do down 2005
http://www.youtube.com/user/silviotoledo?feature=mhw4#p/u/3/79TsxXORCHA

Rayek
03-26-2010, 02:47 PM
How about this muscle rig? Does it compare well to other systems?

http://www.jpbouza.com.ar/ESP2/descargas/blenrig-3/id/en

I feel the video isn't exactly representative of the muscle system's power. I haven't used other applications' muscle systems (except c4d), so I am curious about the differences in approach, academically spoken.

RebelHill
03-26-2010, 03:13 PM
I'm just impressed with what Digital Domain did with the dragon hydra monster in " Jack something and the Olimpians - Lightning Thieve ". Cool muscles and softbodies.

Thats DD though... so itll be an entirely propietary system... that sort of thing wont be bult into any animaiton package as standard, not for a long time to come. Plus I very much doubt its a fire and forget type of solution either... Im sure there were TDs having to wrangle it along on a shot by shot basis.


How about this muscle rig? Does it compare well to other systems?

[url]http://www.jpbouza.com.ar/ESP2/descargas/blenrig-3/id/en[/url

And this is just blenders version of wrap deformer, which maya's had for ages... the difference with a "built in" muscle system like mayas current one, is that the user attatches prebuilt muscles, which have dynamic properties, and doesnt need to model and rig the underlying muscles manually.

If LW, or any other package had/has a wrap deform, you could do the exact same thing... Ive tried it, ages ago, with clothFX... but it just doesnt function well enough for wrap deform usage.

silviotoledo
03-27-2010, 06:15 AM
The blender sample looks fine! I wish lightwave could do that, it would be great! It solves a lot of deform problems.

Blender actually is way better to animate characters than lightwave.
Specially because it has also ANIMATION SCULPT ( keyframable sculpting ) what messiah copied as POINT ANIMATION.

Actually I'm very sad with lightwave in CA area.
Cinema 4D, Blender, Max and others are more advanced and Lightwave can't be compared to Maya, XSI ou Houdini.


Silvio

RebelHill
03-27-2010, 07:50 AM
Here we go again.

Yes LW lags behind others in CA department... we ALL know this. But much of that is down to animation toolsets... character sets, panels, scene referencing, non-linear, etc, etc.

But as for deform problems in LW... theres LOADS of ways to get good deforms in LW, I, and others I know, get on fine with them.

Just because you cant, doesnt mean LW cant. And a muscle system isnt just gonna magically fix that for you.

Try doing the work yourself instead of expecting the tools to do it for you.

Mr Rid
03-29-2010, 03:44 PM
Mr. Rid

The test is great! It will work for some kind of "creatures".
Would you share your Cloth FX settings?/u/3/79TsxXORCHA[/url]

The tricky part was the weightmaps-

Fix - 'Fix' weightmap applied

weight - 1
spring - 1
visc - 2
resist - 1
sub struct - 'Sub S' weightmap applied - 1 (isolated butt & thighs only)
Hold struct - 'Hold' weightmap applied, - 100000

Compress - 10
Stretch - 1000

Gravity - -5m

But these settings were very delicate and probably wont work on a different mesh. A slight value change would screw it up and I decided ClothFX was too limited and rickety for practical 'jiggle.' LW really needs way more straightforward control over weights within Layout, but should have simpler deform controls other than painting tedious weight maps.

Control, control, control is where LW has always been lacking.

silviotoledo
03-29-2010, 06:56 PM
yeah Craig!

But only a few too talented people like you.


See the belly sample.
I have no idea how fix that.Tried different combinations of bones, weights and morphs without sucess.

The 2 legged monster can't go 4 legged :(. I will need 2 models and CUT between scenes.


I also added muscle bones to other character and got a good result, but once I added to all the character, lightwave ignored the simulation and did wrong deforms.

erikals
03-30-2010, 06:29 AM
ps, this webinar was rescheduled to Friday April 2,... ($18)
https://www2.gotomeeting.com/register/721081931

RebelHill
04-14-2010, 04:55 AM
But only a few too talented people like you.

See the belly sample.
I have no idea how fix that.Tried different combinations of bones, weights and morphs without sucess.

Sorry for not doing this sooner for you... but Ive been totally rammed here.

Anyway... its only a 2 minute fix... it SOOOOOOOOOOO easy! 1 bone is all it takes to fix this particular character.

Im assuming you jumped straight into complicated approaches without trying the most simple basic methods to check and gague results first.

And, no... Ive no particular talents... thats why Im primarily a rigger... lots of logic, little artistic talent required.

prometheus
04-14-2010, 12:34 PM
Our rendered gym machines at work needs a muscle system:)
ehh..to show of some people and active muscles that is.

Where´s lightwaves muscles? :)

Michael

jasonwestmas
04-14-2010, 01:36 PM
The tricky part was the weightmaps-


Control, control, control is where LW has always been lacking.

Weight maps wouldn't be so bad if we could see how they effect the mesh immediately. Environment and Panel hopping (island hopping) the disconnects in LW are LW's greatest weakness, not lack of control.

Mr Rid
04-14-2010, 05:46 PM
Weight maps wouldn't be so bad if we could see how they effect the mesh immediately. Environment and Panel hopping (island hopping) the disconnects in LW are LW's greatest weakness, not lack of control.

But that is all part of what takes away control.

LW tools too often stop short like walking to the end of a pier that ought to be a bridge. I constantly bang my head on NT's low ceiling, I get nervous about even bidding complex jobs, and I was recently involved on a considerable project where we just couldnt get it right in LW and the job went to another company. NT does not take the tool to what seems an obvious conclusion, or you waste time on tools that are outright useless like Collada, dynamic parenting, or HV Deform (why even bother implementing these things?... so they can claim 'New Features!').

At that point you have to jury rig to get to the other side. 'Well, maybe I can widdle a tree limb to make a pole vault... but I have to lug this gear over too... so if I make a pole vault, tie a rope to the gear, vault over to the other side, then drag the gear over... but then the gear gets soaked, and the rope comes loose... :cursin: why didnt they just build a proper BRIDGE in the first place?!' Oh look... 'they' built a bridge and everyone is strolling on over.

This is how I envision weights working in Layout, as easily editable as texture maps- http://www.box.net/shared/static/vdhydcn6me.mov Yes, its ridiculous to re-invent the wheel and put the steering wheel in the trunk where you cant see how turns are affecting direction.

Cageman
04-14-2010, 06:16 PM
That is why it is good to have different tools in the arsenal to tackle different types of jobs. Maya is a hell of alot more capable for certain types of things, but it does have its fair share of flaws, for sure, and often for things that isn't even regarded as "hard to do" in LW.

So, while someone is cursing LW at the moment, I can tell that there are people cursing Maya for things LW does without even having to think about it.

:D

jasonwestmas
04-14-2010, 06:34 PM
B
At that point you have to jury rig to get to the other side. 'Well, maybe I can widdle a tree limb to make a pole vault... but I have to lug this gear over too... so if I make a pole vault, tie a rope to the gear, vault over to the other side, then drag the gear over... but then the gear gets soaked, and the rope comes loose... :cursin: why didnt they just build a proper BRIDGE in the first place?!' Oh look... 'they' built a bridge and everyone is strolling on over.

This is how I envision weights working in Layout, as easily editable as texture maps- http://www.box.net/shared/static/vdhydcn6me.mov Yes, its ridiculous to re-invent the wheel and put the steering wheel in the trunk where you cant see how turns are affecting direction.

Why not build the bridge? I have no idea! I can imagine how useful it would be to be able to create Vmaps in Layout. That would rock! I guess this is what Core is suppose to do for us eventually.

We could say that these island hopping adventures we have are crippling but that's subjective to time. But there are some time-saving things in lightwave, I would still argue though that half the time lightwave does save time. I just wish it was more like 80% of the time more more useful than other apps rather than just half the time.

erikals
04-14-2010, 07:08 PM
Mr Rid, i think you should have added Maya or Max to your arsenal a long time ago.
(remember i read you tested FumeFX though)

the thing is, right now Core is adding decent Bullet HBDynamics and the BSG guys are launching Bakudan.
(+having fun DPont plugins) for water splash fluids one of course use RealFlow.

for VFX of the sort you do, why didn't you add Max or something?
it has great VFX plugins (Krakatoa, FumeFX, more...)

is it the price? (must be the reason, then again, take a loan)
why not add a second 3D software package?

---------------------

(i know weights are pain in LW, but this makes it slightly easier)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgfMTN4AnuU
(for CA weights there's an easier way, will add a tutorial later on...)

silviotoledo
04-22-2010, 06:30 PM
Thanks Rebell!

Looks great! You're the best character rigger I've seen on lightwave!
I've tried additive bones at the belly too, but...

Well, it would be a bit easier if we have tools like ANIM SCULPT from blender or SCULPT from MODO, wich are no more Top Technologies to solve things like that.
Once softwares like blender, cinema 4d and other are more advanced in this area we just expect lightwave...


Mr Rid!

Loved your video! Once UV Maps can be turned in Weightmaps in modeler, they have the tools to do the reverse process I guess. They just need to hear the artists and do simplified tools.

Lightwave have a lot of legacy tools that does everything but doesn't work together. This is what I see like weak part of lightwave. It would be better less tools that works together.

it seems CORE will follow this way... but the way takes a lot of time...

erikals
04-22-2010, 07:29 PM
there's a new CA weightmap plugin out btw,...
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108366

erikals
04-22-2010, 07:31 PM
did anyone see this webcast?
Advanced Rigging in LightWave 3D: Project Thanator

it was supposed to show Muscle simulation in LW...

jasonwestmas
04-22-2010, 08:10 PM
Thanks erikals. You are quite the handy helmet. Feel free to mention anything vmap related anytime :D

erikals
04-22-2010, 08:22 PM
my pleasure, will do ;]

Mr Rid
04-22-2010, 10:02 PM
...
Loved your video! Once UV Maps can be turned in Weightmaps in modeler, ...

Ah! As little as I know about weights, the best kept secret in Modeler weights is the Textured Point tool that somehow slipped under everyone's radar. Its exactly the kind of direction I was referring to, allowing you to use the texture editor to apply weights, including UV maps. Which is great... but oop, another pier. You just cant load or save the weight texture to tweak on later, after you close the object. And I am used to whipping textures into shape in GL realtime, by the convenience of quickly dragging, scaling,rotating a reference null (like in my example vid), which I cant do in Modeler.


...
the thing is, right now Core is adding decent Bullet HBDynamics and the BSG guys are launching Bakudan.
(+having fun DPont plugins)...

vapor until complete and reliable in production.



for VFX of the sort you do, why didn't you add Max or something?
it has great VFX plugins (Krakatoa, FumeFX, more...)

Well, no one has ever been willing to pay me to sit around for months trying to get up to speed in new apps. I am hired to get it done asap using what I know. Its more cost efficient to hire someone who is already an expert in Max/Fume... which they did, and he now has my old job (although I had some health problems anyway). But I am not complaining, he has a far more capable skillset as an expert in Fume, Max, Thinking Particles, and Final Render. People call me when they have a tight schedule, but my hacky LW skills are now quite obsolete in state-o-art VFX. I'm getting to be an old dog and the new tricks these days inevitably entail scripting/algebra (that I failed all 4 years of high school) that I am NOT into. When I ask a question on the RealFlow forum, someone usually says, 'Oh, you can just write a script for that!' They may as well be advising me to go play some Chopin... when I am tone deaf, cant read music, or play the piano.