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BeeVee
02-23-2010, 11:45 AM
Hi all,

Discuss the February 2010 newsletter (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/newsletter.php) in this thread.

News this month includes:


A LightWave with CORE Technology update from Jay Roth including a great new video featuring the Viewport Preview Render (VPR)

LightWave 3D's use in "Avatar" and the fact that Rob Powers is joining the NewTek team

We have project news from "The Road" showing how DIVE VFX created several shots with LightWave

Tutorial news from Ten24 and Lee Perry-Smith along with a great time lapse showing how the fierce Hyundai Equus was built for Fortune magazine


B

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 11:47 AM
Nice!

cresshead
02-23-2010, 12:08 PM
yeah good news in this newletter...Core is NOT going to be rushed out...it'll arrive 'Gold' when it's fully tested and ready to rock the house!

probiner
02-23-2010, 12:12 PM
Good news and cool demo video of the VPR :thumbsup:

Nice stuff from the community too.

Cheers

Soth
02-23-2010, 12:20 PM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_3_NewTek_Rob_Powers_RobOverNeteri.jpg

Guys, this is sooooooooooooooo fake... I feel sick. :(

EDIT: wrong link

safetyman
02-23-2010, 04:09 PM
That VPR previewer is great -- will it replace fprime or is it just a previewer and not a renderer?

probiner
02-23-2010, 04:18 PM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_1_NewTek_Powers_LWAvatar_leonop.jpg

Guys, this is sooooooooooooooo fake... I feel sick. :(

I can't see what's wrong in that image, thought this one (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_3_NewTek_Rob_Powers_RobOverNeteri.jpg) was the cheesy one.

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 04:19 PM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_1_NewTek_Powers_LWAvatar_leonop.jpg

Guys, this is sooooooooooooooo fake... I feel sick. :(

don't think that image is fake dude looks like Robs on LW version with avatar content ??. . . the image at the end with LW photoshoped in on the screen is "edited" . maybe it is the original screen , except they have screen captured it and overlayed back onto the picture to bring attention to the image ? " I'm hoping this is the case " . if it was me that made the image , i would have feathered the screengrab and blended it better . toned it down a little to look more like the other screens .........but hey everyones a critic . . .
and the new Core Video is probably the best that I have seen from all the other content .

I don't understand truely what you mean ?

cresshead
02-23-2010, 04:24 PM
That VPR previewer is great -- will it replace fprime or is it just a previewer and not a renderer?

VPR is as i underdstand it the SAME code as the renderer so nothing should be restricted on what you can view in the vpr viewport compared to a full render from core unlike Fprime and lightwave legacy, of course Jay or Messiah or someone at Newtek can chime in with a definative answer.

Soth
02-23-2010, 04:29 PM
I can't see what's wrong in that image, thought this one (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_3_NewTek_Rob_Powers_RobOverNeteri.jpg) was the cheesy one.

that what I meant... servers were so slow I messed up something, ive fixed it

cresshead
02-23-2010, 04:30 PM
Incredible... now I'm again confused which league NT want's to play in.
This can't be serious, right? Can someone at NT send me the two source files so that I can make a proper comp before too much damage is done? I'm speechless...

it's just a 'pikky' of course linking to the hi res one was not a smart move as you can clearly see it's a comp on the screen grab pik..the small one is "okay" if you don't look too hard.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_3_NewTek_Rob_Powers_RobOverNeteri-212x119.jpg

Cageman
02-23-2010, 04:34 PM
That VPR previewer is great -- will it replace fprime or is it just a previewer and not a renderer?

The previewer and the renderer is 100% the same, as you can see if you re-read what Jay posted.

Ok...I do it for you then:

"Using the exact same code as the CORE render engine, VPR offers a "wysiwyg" result very quickly."

:)

Soth
02-23-2010, 04:34 PM
it's just a 'pikky' of course linking to the hi res one was not a smart move as you can clearly see it's a comp on the screen grab pik..the small one is "okay" if you don't look too hard.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_3_NewTek_Rob_Powers_RobOverNeteri-212x119.jpg

It should not be done at the first place, I honestly feel cheated! What they think outside world will think about it? I am speechless.

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 04:35 PM
it's just a 'pikky' of course linking to the hi res one was not a smart move as you can clearly see it's a comp on the screen grab pik..the small one is "okay" if you don't look too hard.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_3_NewTek_Rob_Powers_RobOverNeteri-212x119.jpg

my granny could spot the difference ! I think the image was rushed for press. mwhaa minor detail . . . what can you do . . . .

cresshead
02-23-2010, 04:37 PM
update...i've just posted a request on the HC forum...they "should" see it as i embedded the huge nasty image into the thread!!!!!

monovich
02-23-2010, 04:43 PM
my granny could spot the difference ! I think the image was rushed for press. mwhaa minor detail . . . what can you do . . . .

I couldn't care less. so they didn't have a photographer snapping pics of him when he was actually doing it. big deal. its not like they are making it up, they just needed to do a quick comp to give people something to see.

IMI
02-23-2010, 04:45 PM
Forgive me for being a little slow on the uptake here. Hey, I'm real busy and kinda distracted at the moment but popped in here for a minute to look around, and of course the mention of Core caught my attention...

So are you guys saying that picture with the Avatar chick-thing on the screen is a fake?
Even so, it appears NT is trying to (not so subtly) make it look like LW had more to do with Avatar than is actually true....

That should go over well...
The marketing decisions from NT never cease to amaze me. ;)

cresshead
02-23-2010, 04:46 PM
I couldn't care less. so they didn't have a photographer snapping pics of him when he was actually doing it. big deal. its not like they are making it up, they just needed to do a quick comp to give people something to see.

yeh, but linking to the HUGE pik was not a smart move...small pik you can more or less get away with but the big pik just stands out like a sore thumb and for a graphics company, they should and COULD have done a better job on that large version in photoshop to blend it into the scene at least.

IMI
02-23-2010, 04:47 PM
I couldn't care less. so they didn't have a photographer snapping pics of him when he was actually doing it. big deal. its not like they are making it up, they just needed to do a quick comp to give people something to see.


Sure, but when your audience is filled with people who are trained to notice such things, it might not be such a good idea to do it that way. ;)

Kuzey
02-23-2010, 04:49 PM
The VPR previewer is great but it's not finished. Using it in an expanded viewport like in the video still needs work...it jumps into pixelation as soon as you move/rotate your scene and it can get confusing very fast.

It would be better to have a wireframe/bounding box view etc. of the model/scene as you rotate/move in your scene and then have the previewer kick in.....after you stopped moving.

Kuzey

IMI
02-23-2010, 04:49 PM
Oh yeah VPR=cool.
Thank the gods that it will have its own preview renderer. May VIPER forever rust in peace. ;)

safetyman
02-23-2010, 04:58 PM
So does this mean that fprime is a thing of the past? (sorry I'm repeating myself). I can't imagine Worley ditching it -- it's got to be their top seller. Still, it makes you wonder what's going to happen.

Kuzey
02-23-2010, 04:59 PM
Ok...I was going to ask about the new time line when I saw this:


We will communicate to you the most accurate expected ship date once we have entered the full BETA and testing process for LightWave with CORE Technology

What does that mean....I thought it was already in full Beta and testing phase now??

Is LWHC dead and is Newtek going for a standalone app instead....for V1??

Kuzey

safetyman
02-23-2010, 05:01 PM
May VIPER forever rust in peace. ;)

Technically, you could still call it ViPeR. :)

jayroth
02-23-2010, 05:01 PM
Is LWHC dead and is Newtek going for a standalone app instead....for V1??

Kuzey

No, not at all.

Ĺgrén
02-23-2010, 05:02 PM
Hahaha, this is classic Newtek horror. They just probably didn't have useable photo available though. Or is the "screenie" on top of some Autodesk program perhaps ? :hey:

Anyways, it's good to see a pioneer VPR. It's clearly super-hyper-fast as the window size is pretty large.

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 05:03 PM
I couldn't care less. so they didn't have a photographer snapping pics of him when he was actually doing it. big deal. its not like they are making it up, they just needed to do a quick comp to give people something to see.

hence the mwha what can you do !

I couldn't care less ,not my problem ...........

this is what I will say before the thread goes silly ,because the newsletter should be the issue . . . .
but take this into consideration .

(1) you are 3D / Visual software distribution company ,with a good key grip on the market.
(2) you are entering a new realm of 3D with a sound existing product as your backbone .
(3) every single competitor , 3D newbie , 3D wannibie , 3D expert is watching .
(4) Your track record for delivery promotional content "minor but significant enough to draw attention “isn’t exactly glowing at the moment , so much so ,that you need announce a huge player has joined the team . "great news " .
(5) I can see why people are pissed .
me on the other hand couldn't give a toss , I know the image was probably , "ROb sitting at his desk ,we will composite the image in later , snap .....cya later .
but industry practise and sense should prevail , its getting posted all over the place like wild fire ... com'on its even on Yacht Charter magazine .(",)

Kuzey
02-23-2010, 05:04 PM
No, not at all.

Ahh...shame, hopefully....it'll get there in V2 :D

So what about the full beta bit, that's still confusing.

Kuzey

hrgiger
02-23-2010, 05:12 PM
Ahh...shame, hopefully....it'll get there in V2 :D

So what about the full beta bit, that's still confusing.

Kuzey

Not every one of the features that will be going into CORE v1 are available yet in the builds we receive, that's basically all that means. Once they are, then we'll be in beta. Basically internal use/Newtek = alpha, external use/hc members = beta. At least that's my understanding.

safetyman
02-23-2010, 05:12 PM
About the Avatar image/comp: Taking photos of computer screens is a hit and miss; my guess is that the image didn't turn out too well so they comp'd a clean one in (look at the screen behind his head, it's all washed out). It's a poor job, but c'mon, it's most likely been done without intending to deceive anyone.

3D Kiwi
02-23-2010, 05:15 PM
I gotta be the bad boy here but this is getting bad. If you are going to show us a interactive renderer then at least have it produce a nice image. That demo was that worst i have seen. What is with your marketing department. Modos demo of there Interactive renderer was great got you excited and showed a nice image at the end of it. Forget the avatar pics, i think they hope everyone does. But Core is looking Bad. Interface is nasty, im sure its still a work in progress but Newtek have alot of ground to catch up even with Blender, so if you are going to show something it has to be the best other wise its just a joke.

Honestly Newtek stop showing core videos untill you have something that will blow people away. I was really looking foward to core or as you call it (LightWave with CORE Technology) Jesus just call it core everyone else is.

Newtek get a grip and soon.

Kuzey
02-23-2010, 05:17 PM
And I presume the name is now final...."LightWave with CORE Technology" ??

I still don't like it...but the simple "LW Core" was my favorite :hey:

It's going to be interesting, if people pass if off...thinking it's the same old LW without even bothering to see the videos etc. And I'm thinking about the non LW world out there.


Kuzey

Soth
02-23-2010, 05:19 PM
I gotta be the bad boy here but this is getting bad. If you are going to show us a interactive renderer then at least have it produce a nice image. That demo was that worst i have seen. What is with your marketing department. Modos demo of there Interactive renderer was great got you excited and showed a nice image at the end of it. Forget the avatar pics, i think they hope everyone does. But Core is looking Bad. Interface is nasty, im sure its still a work in progress but Newtek have alot of ground to catch up even with Blender, so if you are going to show something it has to be the best other wise its just a joke.

Honestly Newtek stop showing core videos untill you have something that will blow people away. I was really looking foward to core or as you call it (LightWave with CORE Technology) Jesus just call it core everyone else is.

Newtek get a grip and soon.
Jay posted same video on HC forums couple days ago and got more than few good suggestions from the community, Lewis even fixed the model.

Then here we go, today everyone got same video.

Did anyone at NewTek seen Luxology or Houdini presentation videos?

Kuzey
02-23-2010, 05:23 PM
Not every one of the features that will be going into CORE v1 are available yet in the builds we receive, that's basically all that means. Once they are, then we'll be in beta. Basically internal use/Newtek = alpha, external use/hc members = beta. At least that's my understanding.

That could be it.

But Newtek would have to put a deadline for adding new features...or else, it will always be in a flux between Alpha/Beta phases...and never in full Beta testing mode...I think :help:


Kuzey

cresshead
02-23-2010, 05:25 PM
this one is fine...

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/press_avatar_header-666x133.jpg

it's just a web graphics error or mis communication...no one died! ;D
or at least not yet! :2guns: :lol:

IMI
02-23-2010, 05:25 PM
And I presume the name is now final...."LightWave with CORE Technology" ??

I still don't like it...but the simple "LW Core" was my favorite :hey:



Kuzey

I think it's supposed to have the registered trademark symbols in there too and be like this:

LightWave 3D® with CORE® Technology.
;)

Too cumbersome. People are going to simply call it Core anyway and probably won't bother with the ®'s. ;)

In any event, I thought that whole LW3DwCT name was supposed to be just temporary?

IMO, "LightWave3D Core" or simply "Lightwave Core" is really about the best they could do, name-wise. People will still call it just Core anyway.

Kuzey
02-23-2010, 05:27 PM
Jay posted same video on HC forums couple days ago and got more than few good suggestions from the community, Lewis even fixed the model.

Then here we go, today everyone got same video.

Did anyone at NewTek seen Luxology or Houdini presentation videos?

An Architectural scene would have been better....interior and exterior shots oh my :D

Kuzey

jin choung
02-23-2010, 05:28 PM
viper looks good.

though the demoer could have used something like a cornell box or a cornell box colored ship in order to ACTUALLY DISPLAY the phenomena that he was talking about...

still, not quite as impressive as modo's rhino demo or the subsurf scattering sculpture modo demo, but hopefully this is just an early peek.

though if you really wanna impress, i would recommend using a hires character... perhaps a rhino?

all the curvy lines of a hires character really shows off how hipoly something is and showcases your renderer better... though it also gives you no place to hide... which is also something i appreciate... : )

jin

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 05:30 PM
this one is fine...

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/press_avatar_header-666x133.jpg

:2guns: :lol:

are you going for the 3D Marketing Specialist Job ? (",)

speismonqui
02-23-2010, 05:32 PM
Luxology website is great in terms of visual marketing and quality not only the software but the company. Great videos, nice structure, etc...
Newtek CORE website is old school, text errors, link errors, bad sync in videos, etc.

NT seems to have big issues with webmarketing. Its getting as bad as AD website.


About the avatar image, dont do that! is terrible! its not only a bad photoshop image, but im preeeety much sure that the model was NOT made in lightware. maybe im wrong but thats what i feelt the moment i saw it. Were talking about the movie everyones talking about. It was a bad joke! i guess every non-LW-user must be laughing their ***** off!
Please NT, read our comments, were here to help and support LW because we love it, dont do that to us.

Kuzey
02-23-2010, 05:33 PM
I think it's supposed to have the registered trademark symbols in there too and be like this:

LightWave 3D® with CORE® Technology.
;)

Too cumbersome. People are going to simply call it Core anyway and probably won't bother with the ®'s. ;)

In any event, I thought that whole LW3DwCT name was supposed to be just temporary?

IMO, "LightWave3D Core" or simply "Lightwave Core" is really about the best they could do, name-wise. People will still call it just Core anyway.

Damn...I forgot about those...silly me :hey:

"with CORE® Technology" makes it seem like they are working on other products that's going to make use of it:

3D Arsenal™ with CORE® Technology

SpeedEDIT™ with CORE® Technology

TriCaster™ with CORE® Technology etc. etc.

Kuzey

cresshead
02-23-2010, 05:34 PM
are you going for the 3D Marketing Specialist Job ? (",)

I should!
was let down on a job today!

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 05:34 PM
but im preeeety much sure that the model was NOT made in lightware. maybe im wrong but thats what i feelt the moment i saw it. Were talking about the movie everyones talking about. It was a bad joke! i guess every non-LW-user must be laughing their ***** off!
Please NT, read our comments, were here to help and support LW because we love it, dont do that to us.




I think it could be a LW model although it looks low poly and could be just the asset . but the question is .... is the Perspective window ,the real version . or is it a render added to the image ??????
#
oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh that is the question ..

kiddin just playing now .

Soth
02-23-2010, 05:36 PM
all the curvy lines of a hires character really shows off how hipoly something is and showcases your renderer better... though it also gives you no place to hide... which is also something i appreciate... : )


...well, we had this conversation in HC forums already :(

IMI
02-23-2010, 05:37 PM
It's a poor job, but c'mon, it's most likely been done without intending to deceive anyone.

I don't know about that. All of of marketing and advertising is deception of some sort or other. ;)
You try to make people think your product is what they want and while you don't want to outright lie, a little name-dropping, when applicable no matter how remotely, is a good technique.
In this case, the idea is to make it look like LW had a considerably more important role in the making of Avatar than it did.
However, most of the current users and potential customers already know LW's role in Avatar, and those who don't will learn about it, so it comes off looking not-so-good, IMO, like they're just barely skirting the borders of morality in advertising.
So while we here al know about NT's marketing...ummm... issues...to some people it WILL look like an intentional outright deception, and that could be... not so good for them.

And then you pair it with something like this quote from the page"
"Rob's work on "Avatar" was a fantastic benefit to the film...

Well I'm sure it was, I have no doubts about that. Obviously the guy is monstrously talented.
But then again, I bet the local deli or pizza place was a "fantastic benefit" as well. ;)

Soth
02-23-2010, 05:40 PM
But then again, I bet the local deli or pizza place was a "fantastic benefit" as well. ;)

I think that was a bit too much.

jin choung
02-23-2010, 05:40 PM
...well, we had this conversation in HC forums already :(

>sigh<

i'll bet.

jin

Matt
02-23-2010, 05:41 PM
Now that VPR is out of the bag, I guess I can now post this comparison I did a while ago:


Battle of the Interactive Preview Renderers: FPrime vs Modo 401 vs LightWave CORE

Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip (http://www.pixsim.co.uk/core/video/Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip)

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 05:43 PM
either way it worked un-conscious or not .we are talking about Core in some form ,which is marketing at its simplest .

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 05:43 PM
Now that VPR is out of the bag, I guess I can now post this comparison I did a while ago:


Battle of the Interactive Preview Renderers: FPrime vs Modo 401 vs LightWave CORE

Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip (http://www.pixsim.co.uk/core/video/Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip)

Sweet
--------------------
EDIT
--------------------
Killer Thread

IMI
02-23-2010, 05:44 PM
I think that was a bit too much.

I don't think so, it wasn't a direct analogy.
And I do have a penchant for being overly dramatic. :D
Anything and everything that contributed to the final version of Avatar was a "fantastic benefit" of some sort or other was all my point was, and I'm sure you could include anything that supported the endeavor in any way.

But my point was that showing the Avatar figure on-screen in LW and coupling it with that comment is almost like saying, "Look, Avatar was made with LightWave".

Soth
02-23-2010, 05:45 PM
>sigh<

i'll bet.

jin

More, there are user generated videos/screens showing this kind of objects.

I respect Jay, Chuck and developers at NewTek very much... why is this happening? ...bad dream or what?

EDIT: thx Matt

Ĺgrén
02-23-2010, 05:45 PM
Can this VPR be configured to create preview videos ?


though the demoer could have used something like a cornell box or a cornell box color ship in order to ACTUALLY DISPLAY the phenomena that he was talking about...

Yeah, second that.

Wouldn't hurt to get the content eyecandy level generally higher with these "miraculous technology" demos (screenshots & videos). Some people don't understand english but still watch these things.

IMI
02-23-2010, 05:46 PM
either way it worked un-conscious or not .we are talking about Core is some form ,which is marketing at its simplest .


Well, *we've* been talking about Core for over a year now.
The problem is, whenever NT talks about Core, something weird happens. ;)

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 05:46 PM
Now that VPR is out of the bag, I guess I can now post this comparison I did a while ago:


Battle of the Interactive Preview Renderers: FPrime vs Modo 401 vs LightWave CORE

Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip (http://www.pixsim.co.uk/core/video/Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip)

THATS WICKED < "CAN'T BELIVE I JUST WATCHED A PREVIEW RENDER .......RENDER " ironnnnnnniiiieee ,that would be a winner on YT

edit

next time split screen it and make it a race ........ edit .... and more naked chicks

3D Kiwi
02-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Now that VPR is out of the bag, I guess I can now post this comparison I did a while ago:


Battle of the Interactive Preview Renderers: FPrime vs Modo 401 vs LightWave CORE

Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip (http://www.pixsim.co.uk/core/video/Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip)

This is crazy, This guy makes a video showing Core ipr that is ten times better than the one newtek made. Ok sure they may not be able to compare it to modo or fprime but really, get this guy to make some demos for you Newtek.

Soth
02-23-2010, 05:53 PM
next time split screen it and make it a race ........ edit .... and more naked chicks
I am sure that 1080p and split screen on YT would be very popular. :)

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 05:55 PM
This is crazy, This guy makes a video showing Core ipr that is ten times better than the one newtek made. Ok sure they may not be able to compare it to modo or fprime but really, get this guy to make some demos for you Newtek.

I think Matt could probably write several PDF / Videos on CORE .......oh wait he already has .

probiner
02-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Better?
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/th_b_e_t_t_e_r.jpg (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/b_e_t_t_e_r.jpg)

Ppl sure give a hard time to NT :D

EDIT:crap Oliver beat me to it

IMI
02-23-2010, 05:57 PM
Now that VPR is out of the bag, I guess I can now post this comparison I did a while ago:


Battle of the Interactive Preview Renderers: FPrime vs Modo 401 vs LightWave CORE

Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip (http://www.pixsim.co.uk/core/video/Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip)

Very very cool Matt!
Excellent choice of music as well. :thumbsup:

jin choung
02-23-2010, 05:58 PM
newtek just needs to learn how to bring the sexy.

does a fairly monochromatic ship show off global illumination well?

does a fairly boxy object like container ship (for fs sake) really show off high poly objects?

come on newtek. we're smart enough so you can't FOOL us. if you're gonna bring the sexy, freakin' bring the sexy.

jin

Lightwolf
02-23-2010, 05:59 PM
Bored, waiting for a render... no time to match the jpeg-artefacts though.
At least the distortion works better...
Certainly not as obviously PSed. Too bad that the left frame of the monitor gives it away more than anything else.
You'd also probably need to blur the edges a bit more...
Darn it, my comp mode is kicking in...

Cheers,
Mike - who should be in sleep mode instead.

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 06:00 PM
ohhhhhhh I so want to edit that image and drop another screen grab in .... but it would probably infringe laws and gain a ban ....... so I will merely just suggest the action .

turned into a mini challenge ....... you can't blame the artist , its the procedures that need looked at .

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 06:01 PM
if you're gonna bring the sexy, freakin' bring the sexy.jin

fooooooooooooooo(in love you man !
-------------------------------------------
KINGS OF LEON !
THIS THREAD IS ON FIRE ..

Matt
02-23-2010, 06:07 PM
Bored, waiting for a render... no time to match the jpeg-artefacts though.
At least the distortion works better...

Ya, use that one! Less obviously comp'd than the original!

:D

Cageman
02-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Well I'm sure it was, I have no doubts about that. Obviously the guy is monstrously talented.
But then again, I bet the local deli or pizza place was a "fantastic benefit" as well. ;)

How can you say that if you know what his role was? Working as the only (and first) 3D artist on the movie, within the Art Department to define what the character looked like and moved like, and write it off as some sort of pizza-joke?

Come on... Robs role on the project was very, very important. Jim handpicked him because they have good chemistry, and Rob is, utlimately, they person who made things work, tools asside.

Saying anything else is like saying aeroplanes can't fly because the can't flap their wings... how stupid is that?

zarti
02-23-2010, 06:15 PM
great Matt!! you did with your own will and dedication what nt should have done but re-didn't!


p.s.: core is wip, and is the fastest ipr i have ever seen. chances are it is going to be even more faster.

Matt
02-23-2010, 06:17 PM
p.s.: core is wip, and is the fastest ipr i have ever seen. chances are it is going to be even more faster.

And that test was done a while ago in an old version of CORE too! Who knows how fast it will be when it finally ships! Mark Granger freaking rocks!

:)

hrgiger
02-23-2010, 06:17 PM
VPR (not Viper Jin- please no more viper) is fast.

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 06:18 PM
And that test was done a while ago in an old version of CORE too! Who knows how fast it will be when it finally ships! Mark Granger freaking rocks!

:)

naked chicks.......more ............real............ best seller

IMI
02-23-2010, 06:19 PM
How can you say that if you know what his role was? Working as the only (and first) 3D artist on the movie, within the Art Department to define what the character looked like and moved like, and write it off as some sort of pizza-joke?

Come on... Robs role on the project was very, very important. Jim handpicked him because they have good chemistry, and Rob is, utlimately, they person who made things work, tools asside.

Saying anything else is like saying aeroplanes can't fly because the can't flap their wings... how stupid is that?


That's not what I said at all, Cageman, and I know you're smart enough to know that. And there was no "pizza joke" and I'd hope you'd be able to pick up on the analogy, especially after I explained it and all.

But just to recap:
LW *was* used in Avatar. Rob's role, along with LW *was* important.
I'm not saying anything to the contrary. If you want to argue with me about it, do so within the context of what I actually said, please.
And if I'm wrong about saying that the newsletter strongly implies LW had a major role in Avatar, tell me how.
My understanding is that LW's role in Avatar was more or less as previz software. Is that wrong? I know it wasn't used for animation or rendering.

Cageman
02-23-2010, 06:19 PM
viper looks good.

Never confuse VPR with VIPER... ever again!!!!! ;)



though the demoer could have used something like a cornell box or a cornell box colored ship in order to ACTUALLY DISPLAY the phenomena that he was talking about...

still, not quite as impressive as modo's rhino demo or the subsurf scattering sculpture modo demo, but hopefully this is just an early peek.

though if you really wanna impress, i would recommend using a hires character... perhaps a rhino?

all the curvy lines of a hires character really shows off how hipoly something is and showcases your renderer better... though it also gives you no place to hide... which is also something i appreciate... : )

jin

I was voicing for several videos. One to show of Functionality (this one)... another one for Beauty (to show how well the renderer can refine at the current incarnation), and thirdly, some sort of organic object...

I have seen a video in HC from a user where a 7-8 million polygon organic character updates in seconds with GI. I think it was a Z-Brush export... but never the less.. the amount of polygons and speed was quite impressive indeed and the object itself looked pretty darn good, even if the video was more about showing the raw polygon handling within VPR of that monster-object.

:)

zarti
02-23-2010, 06:21 PM
naked chicks.......more ............real............ best seller

with SSS please ...

Cageman
02-23-2010, 06:22 PM
My understanding is that LW's role in Avatar was more or less as previz software. Is that wrong? I know it wasn't used for animation or rendering.

Without previs, or in this case actual Viz, the movie may not have been done.. at all... in what way is that NOT important?

EDIT: You have to understand.. what Rob and the team did was to provide Cameron with enough environment, not just grayshaded stuff, but things that did have texture, form and above all, could provide enough atmosphere so that when Jim actually shot through the virtual camera, he was actually shooting, not just doing previs.

Most of the modeling of these assets, as well as animation and texturing was done using LW.

Again... in what way did this NOT have an important role in the project? You may not be aware, but many of the shots done this way was replicated 100% by Weta for the real and final renders, but without these things, Weta may have had to strugle many more days or weeks to get it right. In this case, Jim could just say: Match the layout and placement with what you got from LightStorm.

Are you getting what I'm trying to get at here?

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 06:24 PM
away to bed ....enjoy ... goodnight everyone ... goodnight NT / ROB "since your on",

probiner
02-23-2010, 06:27 PM
I have seen a video in HC from a user where a 7-8 million polygon organic character updates in seconds with GI. I think it was a Z-Brush export...

Maybe now it is out, it could be posted here too :D

@ Matt: nice one =D

OnlineRender
02-23-2010, 06:29 PM
http://www.nochucknorris.com/ just to divert for several posts... night

zarti
02-23-2010, 06:33 PM
http://www.nochucknorris.com/ just to divert for several posts... night

give something else ... cause googie said:

Google won't search for Chuck Norris because it knows you don't find Chuck Norris, he finds you.

IMI
02-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Without previs, or in this case actual Viz, the movie may not have been done.. at all... in what way is that NOT important?

I never said it was NOT important, did I? If I did, then please show me where I did.

C'mon man, this is a thread to discuss the newsletter and I discussed a part of the newsletter. I gave my opinion that NT, in the way they did it, is more or less saying "LW was made with Avatar", because that's how it seems to come off, when you couple the comments with the images.

Nothing more, nothing less. I'm neither dissing Rob nor LW here, just commenting on what I see as potentially damaging marketing.

safetyman
02-23-2010, 06:42 PM
Good grief, can we talk about something else? "Who cares whose brothers sisters cousin it is?!!" (name the movie, win a prize). How about Viper, oops, sorry... VPR. I want to know more about it since I'm not in HC.

Cageman
02-23-2010, 06:45 PM
I never said it was NOT important, did I? If I did, then please show me where I did.

C'mon man, this is a thread to discuss the newsletter and I discussed a part of the newsletter. I gave my opinion that NT, in the way they did it, is more or less saying "LW was made with Avatar", because that's how it seems to come off, when you couple the comments with the images.

Nothing more, nothing less. I'm neither dissing Rob nor LW here, just commenting on what I see as potentially damaging marketing.

Your are clearly implying that Robs role was not as important as it was. This is something you hint towards in your very first post in this thread, I just never quoted you on those lines.

Wether or not LWs role in this is equal to Robs is a totaly different discussion and if that is what you are getting at... then that's fair enough... but if so, you should have been more clear about that, imho.

EDIT: Not first post in this thread though, but this one: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=989986&postcount=46

Now... exactly what Im I getting wrong?

3D Kiwi
02-23-2010, 06:46 PM
Here is another reason newtek need to get there poo together

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/ken/excalibur_xbr_revealed

Cageman
02-23-2010, 06:54 PM
Here is another reason newtek need to get there poo together

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/ken/excalibur_xbr_revealed

In what way is that any better compared to: http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php

Is it the forum-feeling of the page, or the video that I've been told is quite darn boring without few, if any, groundbreaking news?

In what way should NT look at that and feel "We want to replicate them?"

IMI
02-23-2010, 06:54 PM
Without previs, or in this case actual Viz, the movie may not have been done.. at all... in what way is that NOT important?

EDIT: You have to understand.. what Rob and the team did was to provide Cameron with enough environment, not just grayshaded stuff, but things that did have texture, form and above all, could provide enough atmosphere so that when Jim actually shot through the virtual camera, he was actually shooting, not just doing previs.

Most of the modeling of these assets, as well as animation and texturing was done using LW.

Again... in what way did this NOT have an important role in the project? You may not be aware, but many of the shots done this way was replicated 100% by Weta for the real and final renders, but without these things, Weta may have had to strugle many more days or weeks to get it right. In this case, Jim could just say: Match the layout and placement with what you got from LightStorm.

Are you getting what I'm trying to get at here?

Oh well you went and edited it after I already replied. ;)
I read most of the Avatar thread here and I read what Rob said about LW's role. I might have missed some of the details, but I know the bottom line is that LW's role, while significant, wasn't the be-all, end-all solution to the animation and rendering of the movie. And yes, I know that any production on a scale of the likes of Avatar uses all kinds of software, much of which doesn't even exist commercially.

Yes, I do get what you're getting at, but I don't think you get what I was saying. You seem to have blown it all out or proportion.
I mean, I guess I could have started out with something like a disclaimer stating that I in no way am trying to belittle LW or Rob's contribution to Avatar... but I didn't think it would be necessary.

Look at it this way - they have a badly comped photo showing the Avatar girly in Modeler and a few comments strongly implying that LW was what made all the magic happen. The way they did it is practically inviting ridicule, which is all I've been saying.

3D Kiwi
02-23-2010, 07:03 PM
In what way is that any better compared to: http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php

Is it the forum-feeling of the page, or the video that I've been told is quite darn boring without few, if any, groundbreaking news?

In what way should NT look at that and feel "We want to replicate them?"

Think you missed the point. The video is boring but shows that Autodesk is actively working on max and taking it to the next level. Node based everything and more. And the fact is AD have more money and more people to work on this and will get it done faster and better than Newtek (based on the current situation) So what would you look at The new 3DS, a proven 3d package from the biggest 3d company, or core completley untested, and seams to be lacking direction.

IMI
02-23-2010, 07:04 PM
Your are clearly implying that Robs role was not as important as it was. This is something you hint towards in your very first post in this thread, I just never quoted you on those lines.

Wether or not LWs role in this is equal to Robs is a totaly different discussion and if that is what you are getting at... then that's fair enough... but if so, you should have been more clear about that, imho.

EDIT: Not first post in this thread though, but this one: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=989986&postcount=46

Now... exactly what Im I getting wrong?

What you're not getting, or maybe what I didn't get across right is this:
To YOU, it probably seems cut and dry. You know probably more about it than many people do. Many other people do too.
However, the newsletter is public. Many people will know exactly what LW's role was, while many will not.
And it's aimed at those who don't. I mean, no point in preaching to the choir and all.
And, IMO, it *looks* to me that they're saying Avatar was made with LightWave. Okay, was it? Why isn't the full article in the newsletter, but only linked to? Why didn't they mention LW wasn't used to render?

Was the Avatar alien girly in the picture in the screen in Modeler modeled by him, in Modeler? Because that's what the picture is saying.

Matt
02-23-2010, 07:06 PM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, this was way cool ...

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/potm/ThomasMangold_Mosquitofant-650x407.jpg

zarti
02-23-2010, 07:12 PM
just noticed;

IMI's signature:
"Strangely enough, my opinions on 3D stuff do actually represent those of my employer, and possibly the US government too. But I really don't care what they think about it anyway."

VS.


Cageman Signature:
"The views contained here are mine and does not, in whole or in part, represent views of my employer nor any of it's employees."

:D

robpowers3d
02-23-2010, 07:16 PM
I can't see what's wrong in that image, thought this one (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/images/profiles/imagesimage/newsletter/02_2010/avatar/Image_3_NewTek_Rob_Powers_RobOverNeteri.jpg) was the cheesy one.

Sorry that image was so bothersome guys. It was an effort to make the screen image actually clear and readable. Obviously the image would appear as blurry as the other monitor and wouldn't look very good. I'm sure we can replace it with just the screen image itself.

Matt
02-23-2010, 07:20 PM
Sorry that image was so bothersome guys. It was an effort to make the screen image actually clear and readable. Obviously the image would appear as blurry as the other monitor and wouldn't look very good. I'm sure we can replace it with just the screen image itself.

Welcome to NewTek Rob! ;)

robpowers3d
02-23-2010, 07:21 PM
Hehe, yes, you're right... tried not to blur the LW screen too much (guess people are supposed to see it :D) and forgot about the edges. But the screen distortion correction only sells because of the bad quality anyway. So... little better? ;)

Greets.
Oliver.

Oliver,

I like that much better ;) But maybe the "over the shoulder" isn't needed at all and we can just replace it with the screen grab.

Lightwolf
02-23-2010, 07:22 PM
Sorry that image was so bothersome guys. It was an effort to make the screen image actually clear and readable. Obviously the image would appear as blurry as the other monitor and wouldn't look very good. I'm sure we can replace it with just the screen image itself.
Either that or show the live shot as an inset.

Cheers,
Mike

Wickster
02-23-2010, 07:27 PM
You know...
All this ruckus = no build

right?

:D

safetyman
02-23-2010, 07:27 PM
It was an effort to make the screen image actually clear and readable. Obviously the image would appear as blurry as the other monitor and wouldn't look very good. I'm sure we can replace it with just the screen image itself.

SEE! I TOLD you guys!!!!

robpowers3d
02-23-2010, 07:32 PM
Welcome to NewTek Rob! ;)

Thanks Matt! LOL. :) :)

Nicolas Jordan
02-23-2010, 08:07 PM
The angle of the light really bothered me on the VPR demo. It looks like it's being shot up at an angle from below the ship. The top of the ship isn't really receiving any direct light at all. It would have been nice to have it shine from above the sun does since that is the type of scene that is being portrayed. I think VPR looks pretty good although I don't think I would ever model in the VPR viewport. I likes my open GL for modeling! :D

It would have also been nice to see the instances of the ships being created instead of just making them visible.

adamredwoods
02-23-2010, 08:42 PM
Great job on the VPR demo, loved the instancing (finally).

Nice to see that Lightwave is keeping pace and offering the VPR built in instead of an add on.

Keep going Newtek!

probiner
02-23-2010, 08:46 PM
Sorry that image was so bothersome guys. It was an effort to make the screen image actually clear and readable. Obviously the image would appear as blurry as the other monitor and wouldn't look very good. I'm sure we can replace it with just the screen image itself.

Indeed, welcome Rob.

Get used to this both heart warm sharefull and beserk rant demanding community now that you are in that side :thumbsup:
[and they also have great humor. Top one of the day by Cageman: Saying anything else is like saying aeroplanes can't fly because the can't flap their wings]

As for the image. Editing an image for presentation porpuses is fine. We just like to be fooled better, so we don't have to become smart asses, bragging that we can see the 'comp' and even try to correct it :D

Looking forward to see more of your work and thoughts around here.

Cheers

Again... To Newtek... VPR, along with the SubD video, are the kind of videos that make sense. Great job!

jin choung
02-23-2010, 08:58 PM
Never confuse VPR with VIPER... ever again!!!!! ;)

that's another thing... they didn't have to call it "vpr".

but they did.

dammit!

just like they earned years of "what's the difference between lw's metanurbs and nurbs?" by calling it metanurbs... dammit!

i can't in good conscience call it anything OTHER than viper...

i promise you, i guarantee you... EVERYONE is gonna call it viper. so newtek has made their bed, they better get ready to lay in it. might as well consign themselves to the fact that they better start calling the other thing "viper jr".

jin

GandB
02-23-2010, 09:00 PM
"Who cares whose brothers sisters cousin it is?!!"
Conan the Destroyer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087078/): the waterfall scene, trying to get into the castle.

Now, what do I get? :D

jin choung
02-23-2010, 09:09 PM
What you're not getting, or maybe what I didn't get across right is this:
To YOU, it probably seems cut and dry. You know probably more about it than many people do. Many other people do too.
However, the newsletter is public. Many people will know exactly what LW's role was, while many will not.
And it's aimed at those who don't. I mean, no point in preaching to the choir and all.
And, IMO, it *looks* to me that they're saying Avatar was made with LightWave. Okay, was it?

right.

it always seems to boil down into two camps:

a. making sure lw gets what credit is due it.

and

b. making sure lw ONLY gets what credit is due it.

hahaha....

and it seems that the two sides are incapable of understanding what the other side is really getting at, each side thinking the other is acting a little too... ehhhh... "expansively".

lol

(i've gone several pages on this as well if you haven't noticed...)

>sigh<

>shrug<

jin

Nicolas Jordan
02-23-2010, 09:18 PM
Rob, I noticed you have the LWCAD 3.x tabs at the top of your modeler window in the one screen grab. Just curious what type of things LWCAD came in handy for? Was it useful for mocking up quick low res previz stuff or something like that?

robpowers3d
02-23-2010, 11:26 PM
Rob, I noticed you have the LWCAD 3.x tabs at the top of your modeler window in the one screen grab. Just curious what type of things LWCAD came in handy for? Was it useful for mocking up quick low res previz stuff or something like that?

LWCAD is great for creating any architectural based polygonal models period. Low res or otherwise. Definitely a unique and useful tool for those purposes.

evolross
02-23-2010, 11:59 PM
Now that VPR is out of the bag, I guess I can now post this comparison I did a while ago:


Battle of the Interactive Preview Renderers: FPrime vs Modo 401 vs LightWave CORE

Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip (http://www.pixsim.co.uk/core/video/Battle_of_the_IPRs.zip)
I like how FPrime's render has more contrast and looks richer. It's also interesting that Modo and Core's renders look so similar.

Is the difference between FPrime and Modo/Core due to trying to match surface settings between the programs?

Also, why does this forum's search engine return a blank screen when you input more than one word? Does this ever happen to anyone else?

Soth
02-24-2010, 12:04 AM
Also, why does this forum's search engine return a blank screen when you input more than one word? Does this ever happen to anyone else?

Just Google whatever you want to find here with newtek and forums words, it works much better than search here.

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 12:33 AM
well, in the defence of nt i have to remind you all that the nt crew are technicians...we (the audience) are artists.

We will automatically value things differently.
Where nt, the technicians, are showing what is pretty darn impressive technological achievements, we, the artists, are only expecting to see pretty images.


Nt showed that vpr (View Port Renderer, Jin) doesnt even consider slowing down its extremly fast performance even if you add 10 times more geometry to it, but we do not take notice becouse that is not how our brain is wired.

The monster, organic object that others were speaking of shows less in terms of technology, but instead it has that artistic, emotional effect that we can understand without translating from technical into impressive (aka, pretty)

The monster (by Lino Grandi) gives a feeling of actually existing as a physical form in the viewport...a strong, alive and threatening beast, it gives the feel that impresses artists more than technicians.

That said...vpr is very impressive, and you can have more viewports in core than in modeler so you could just model as usual with a quad view and have a fifth view with vpr active.

Or why not a sixth and a seventh viewport with vpr render from alternative views?

Vpr is impressive and enormously fast...but to impress artists nt has to go on an emotional level, like the monster does...i hope Lino Grandi will post it here.

probiner
02-24-2010, 01:00 AM
Or why not a sixth and a seventh viewport with vpr render from alternative views?


My question here about the Viewport Preview Rendering, not shown in the video i think, is if the viewport can or is in fact attached to a camera. Say i do shift+A in the viewport, it centers everything, positioning the camera in the right place.


i hope Lino Grandi will post it here. :agree:


Last question. Will the viewport have the option to be gamma corrected for the linear workflow? This would be great compared to Fprime.

EDIT: OK, in the video it's showned the Gamma option. yay!

Cheers

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 01:12 AM
ahhh good morning glad that calmed down ...... nochucknorris was a tracker for me to see how many posts i had to read when I woke up ." smart thinking " .

somebody mentioned LWCAD ,ive seen it quickly and I have to admit it looks very powerful , the tools are excellent ,infact so good that modeler / core should have them as default ...

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 01:33 AM
probiner.

Vpr will render in any view, be it the ortho views for modeling, perspective view or the camera view...i quess the light view will work too.
Its not much more than open gl on steroids (meaning, you simply choose vpr instead of wireframe or shaded view for the viewport).

Everything you do will show in vpr, shift +a will zoom in/out so that the model fills the vp.
Camera should not be affected (would be a shame to accidentaly move a carefully placed camera) by shift + a


And to my knowledge vpr is set to linear...i could be wrong though.

scenergy
02-24-2010, 01:34 AM
Nice work on the newsletter. Grats to the talented contributors.

Looking forward to a stable piece of UBER software when it's ripe.

Keep up the good work Newtek. :thumbsup:

probiner
02-24-2010, 01:47 AM
Thanks Pete



Vpr will render in any view, be it the ortho views for modeling, perspective view or the camera view...i quess the light view will work too.
Its not much more than open gl on steroids (meaning, you simply choose vpr instead of wireframe or shaded view for the viewport).


If thats so it's awsome...

The thing about shift+a and center camera on object in not bad, i was pointing it has a good way to track objects instantly without having to set target.

Say i want to focus 3 objects over a table in a travelling. Frame 0 shift-a selecting object 1, frame 60, shift-a selcting 2, and fram 120 for 3.
This would add speed to an already fancy camera control that LW has.
Because when you are in the camera view, you don't care if the camera is in determined XYZ or HPB; you want object A to be in and B to be out of the field, and in viewport control you do that on the fly.
So imagine to Zoom IN and the Camera moving towards the object. Imagine ro rotate and the camera actually rotated around the object... AWSOME!
Well just saying... if it is a viewport why not taking advantage of the intuitive viewport controls for a even more "wysiwyg" thing.

Anyway, i think we all hope to see SS2/FastSkin on VPR =)

Cheers

Soth
02-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Vpr will render in any view, be it the ortho views for modeling, perspective view or the camera view...i quess the light view will work too.

...and UV Map view too, this is something cool!

probiner
02-24-2010, 01:55 AM
...and UV Map view too, this is something cool!

AAHAHAH yahhh instant bake :D

Soth
02-24-2010, 01:58 AM
AAHAHAH yahhh instant bake :D

But to be honest I am not 100% sure about that, what Jay said is any viewport, but we do not have UV map tools yet, but well that is must be feature and I think ppl will press for it hard even if it will not be implemented (instant bake is something is it?). :devil:

probiner
02-24-2010, 02:05 AM
but we do not have UV map tools yet Thats a pitty.


(instant bake is something is it?) If you're asking if it is any good, it is. Even on a small screen scenes when you bake a map, you go with big size images 2048^2, 4096^2. And it takes time...
So, like any render is nice to preview it and even funnier if you can say: AAhh ahh! This is it *Save*

Cheers

jin choung
02-24-2010, 02:12 AM
Nt showed that vpr (View Port Renderer, Jin) doesnt even consider slowing down its extremly fast performance even if you add 10 times more geometry to it, but we do not take notice becouse that is not how our brain is wired.

not true.

as i said, we're not stupid.

i suggest rhinos not because they're prettier or more impressive but more likely to show off truly how hires something is - it doesn't give them room to hide. it doesn't allow for the facets that i can see in the container ship that might be part of the design but nonetheless belie an... "optimized" mesh.

as for the cornell box or the cornell box colored ships, that's not "ARTISTIC". that's just COMMON SENSE.

the demoer is telling us about the effects of global illumination by demonstrating white on "off-white"... if you're gonna say it has global illumination, dontcha want to show it off a bit?

----------------------------------------------

anyhoo, not a deal breaker. not a big deal.

viper looks cool (srsly guys... it's 'vpr'... who's NOT gonna call that viper? it's like ralph fiennes insisting people call him "rafe". just not gonna happen pal. that's fing ralph... as in malph... howabout we split the difference? call it "viper 2 electric boogaloo"?). hopefully it will compare favorably to modo and fprime when done.

but along with the difficulty in connecting to the video (for fs sake... just YOUTUBE IT DAMMIT), it's just a little exasperating that they refuse to bring the sexy.

create sphere;
create sphere;

sphere[0].setColor (0,0,255);
sphere[1].setColor (0,0,255);

jin

p.s. or hey, f the rhino (not literally of course, i hear they're inconsiderate lovers), what happened to that dragon model? next time turn up the subds on that sucker and instance him and let's see what this puppy can really do. white dragons with a multicolor checkered floor... THAT will show off radiosity bounces.

Matt
02-24-2010, 02:47 AM
I like how FPrime's render has more contrast and looks richer. It's also interesting that Modo and Core's renders look so similar.

Is the difference between FPrime and Modo/Core due to trying to match surface settings between the programs?

Yes, there is a slight difference due to matching.

The FPrime one looks different entirely because I had to render to linear and Gamma Correct in the video editing package (because FPrime doesn't support any form of Gamma Correction). CORE VPR is Gamma Corrected, Modo was set up to match.

jin choung
02-24-2010, 02:49 AM
ooops... wrong thread.

jin

Rove
02-24-2010, 02:53 AM
Let me explain something real quick, I'm a hobbyist. I never had the opportunity to make money using LightWave. I'm fortunate enough beeing able to keep upgrading/buying LightWave because of it's very competitive pricing in it's long(!) history.

So, the first 7-8 pages of this thread contain several posts of people ranting I'd thought to throw in some gratitude and hailing:

Hail to Lee Perry-Smith for beeing generous for sharing his findings on recreating the human skin. It was a real eyeopener for me.

I also very much like the quote of Rob Powers.
"The sole reason LightWave was used on the film was because I used it and knew the strengths of the software."

Again shows that it's not about the software you use but how you use it.

LightWave to me has been the No.1 3D software package since 1995. It's ease of use never seizes to amaze me. In fact I even used 3D Studio by the Yost Group before I turned to LightWave. I'm glad I did.

I'm feeling a bit uneasy about the future. Looking at Core's videos and screens makes me feel like I have to learn about a whole new software package. We'll see.

oh yea, I also said I would show some gratitude:
I would like to thank many, many users for helping me "free-of-charge" in getting insight in things I would never be able to grasp myself. I have no technical and no graphical background so many things where (and still are) a big mystery to me.
After many, many years I finally found an organic modeling technique which suits me. A big thanks to Larry Shultz and the tools LW currently has to offer.

NT has build a solid base around LightWave. LightWave has an appealing community and NewTek has a great new addition to "the family": Rob Powers. The future is looking bright!

Rove.

PS: I do not work at the NT marketing division.

archijam
02-24-2010, 02:54 AM
Nice newsletter.

Welcome Rob!

Don't spend too much time on the forums if you want to stay sane .. ;)

Matt
02-24-2010, 02:57 AM
Don't spend too much time on the forums if you want to stay sane .. ;)

Now you tell me! Damn, too late!

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:13 AM
btw,

NICE vid matt!

especially since it won that shootout, i really do want to see a sea of rhinos and see how that turns out.

jin

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 03:13 AM
im not disagreeing with you. Jin.

Im more or less agreing with those who mean that the tanker is a poor choice for shoving off vpr..(viper is so depressive and outdated that i cant call vpr for viper...)

We had this discussion over at hc, but you (non-hc) took it better than expected...we feared worse.

.

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:15 AM
We had this discussion over at hc, but you (non-hc) took it better than expected...we feared worse.

.

haha

: )

jin

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 03:17 AM
but you (non-hc) took it better than expected...we feared worse.

.

you talk about us non-hc as if we are disabled .......kiddin dude but you get the just .

quick question , is VPR , VIPER except fixed ? and why VPR and not VIPER ,different coders ? .. please indulge .

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:19 AM
quick question , is VPR , VIPER except fixed ? and why VPR and not VIPER ,different coders ? .. please indulge .

lol

and it begins.

jin

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 03:21 AM
/\ sorry but just for my own clarification , I can't comment but I wanna know why .

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:24 AM
/\ sorry but just for my own clarification , I can't comment but I wanna know why .

nono,

your question is completely justified.

my comment was to the architects of the name "vpr". it's me telling them that they're gonna live with this confusion for the rest of the core cycle.

it's an, "i told you so" to them.

: )

jin

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 03:26 AM
maybe there just bring'in the freaky sexy (",)

Iain
02-24-2010, 03:28 AM
Hehe great video Matt :thumbsup:

Sad to see FPrime show its age. I thought I heard it crying and mumbling that it could have been a contender.
(It was looking like it would have the most polished final product but you can't argue with the LW time.)

Hopefully that old wizard, Worley still has a trick or two up his sleeve. Ahem.

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:29 AM
/\ sorry but just for my own clarification , I can't comment but I wanna know why .

oh, and to be more helpful:

"viper" ala lightwave legacy = maya ipr

"vpr" ala core = fprime but native to core

vpr is different in nature and execution than viper.

and yet, they chose to give it a name that will immediately link it in everyone's minds to viper.

>shrug<

don't worry, this question will be asked hundreds more times.

jin

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:31 AM
maybe there just bring'in the freaky sexy (",)

only if they're into she-males.

(in context, shockingly, that actually makes sense)

jin

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 03:35 AM
lol

and it begins.

jin

Lol
Yeah.

And its all your fault too. ;)

Onlinerender.
1. Nobody thinks you to be disabled, but we all share a common intrest in presenting core in a good way, in a way that will not spark flamewars, for example...we (hc) can test the speed of vpr, you cant.
So the main idea was to use typical gi test scenes (sponza was suggested) so that you could compare the speed with own tests with lw 9.6, modo or other apps.


2.
Vpr has nothing in common with viper.
Its a new renderer for lw, and if im not mistaken, a variation of vpr can be found in photoshop (rendition).

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 03:36 AM
oh, and to be more helpful:

"viper" ala lightwave legacy = maya ipr

"vpr" ala core = fprime but native to core

vpr is different in nature and execution than viper.

and yet, they chose to give it a name that will immediately link it in everyone's minds to viper.

>shrug<

don't worry, this question will be asked hundreds more times.

jin
so in-turn VPR means "very premature render ?" mwha here all day folks ,SNOWED in and 50 meg unlimited internet connection .......bring it ... kidding , I don't care what they call it , it's what it does that I’m intrigued .

Lightwolf
02-24-2010, 03:37 AM
2.
Vpr has nothing in common with viper.

Well, three letters ;)

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 03:42 AM
Onlinerender.
1. Nobody thinks you to be disabled, .

I know ...LOL
I was pulling your chain dude .... but since we lightly touched on the subject , that's were the basic psychological difference comes in to play . you create a division , you create problems .

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 03:43 AM
Well, three letters ;)

Cheers,
Mike

PMSL ............. and if you say it fast enough

hrgiger
02-24-2010, 03:46 AM
btw,

NICE vid matt!

especially since it won that shootout, i really do want to see a sea of rhinos and see how that turns out.

jin

You're talking about two different things. The sea of Rhinos wasn't an option in Modo until they implemented replicators(several years after the release of Modo 101) which is render time instancing. The instancing in CORE is more in line with the other form of instancing in Modo before replicators.

erikals
02-24-2010, 03:47 AM
hope to see a new name for it, "VPR" just rolls very bad when pronouncing it.

maybe cut the P, simply VR

cresshead
02-24-2010, 03:48 AM
you talk about us non-hc as if we are disabled .......kiddin dude but you get the just .

quick question , is VPR , VIPER except fixed ? and why VPR and not VIPER ,different coders ? .. please indulge .


v.p.r. = view port renderer
vipr = viewport interactive preview render

completly different...similar to asking if tea is the same as coffee....both are hot drinks but taste totally different.:D

going with the drink anaolgy....
vipr is coffee...will keep you awake all night trying to get what your after as you guess what's ahappenin with stuff not rendered via vipr.
VPR is tea...makes the day start off just great and is a joy to use.

mav3rick
02-24-2010, 03:48 AM
Oliver,

I like that much better ;) But maybe the "over the shoulder" isn't needed at all and we can just replace it with the screen grab.

i hope to see you on core ASAP.. would like to see some fresh cool examples in Core from some1 that know to do cool stuff..

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:49 AM
You're talking about two different things. The sea of Rhinos wasn't an option in Modo until they implemented replicators(several years after the release of Modo 101) which is render time instancing. The instancing in CORE is more in line with the other form of instancing in Modo before replicators.

excuses excuses.

well they need to get on that render time instancing thing then.

chop chop. what part of didimau or machschnell don't they understand?

: )

jin

p.s. alas, they're not competing with modo 101... they're competing with modo 505 (or whatever it is now) and maya 2010 and max 2010 and si 2010 and blender 2.5 etc. this is why the refrain "no one else is standing still" is really really horrifying if you understand it. stuff of nightmares really.

no quarter may be asked. no quarter will be given.

two men enter. one man leave.

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 03:50 AM
someone actually did a test with sponza, but vpr had rendered it to final quality faster than you could say "muahahahah"

The monster others mentioned was at 7 or so million polys and would shoke lw to death if that object would be available for testing.

I agree with jin that the dragon(s) would be ideal...but then again, the dragon has been overused previously.

jin choung
02-24-2010, 03:51 AM
both are hot drinks but taste totally different.:D

but in this case, the totally different tasting tea is actually called "cffe".

trust me... they will live to regret this unfortunate decision.

after they have to answer the question for the 50th time in a month, they're gonna ask themselves, "wtf were we thinking? why the f did we do this to ourselves?"

jin

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 03:53 AM
Cress I don't know about you but usually I start with IRISH TEA . :P
edit F5 key is wobbly

hrgiger
02-24-2010, 04:06 AM
but in this case, the totally different tasting tea is actually called "cffe".

trust me... they will live to regret this unfortunate decision.

jin

Well, we've had VPR for several months and you're the first person that I can recall that's referred to it as Viper.

But then we knew you would be.:D

jin choung
02-24-2010, 04:10 AM
But then we knew you would be.:D

yeah but that's literally preaching to the choir. 'course you guys would respect the difference.

out here in the real world, we see vpr, we're callin' it viper goddammit!

jin

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 04:11 AM
lol

zarti
02-24-2010, 04:12 AM
oh, and to be more helpful:

"viper" ala lightwave legacy = maya ipr

"vpr" ala core = fprime but native to core

vpr is different in nature and execution than viper.

and yet, they chose to give it a name that will immediately link it in everyone's minds to viper.

>shrug<

don't worry, this question will be asked hundreds more times.

jin

its name was discussed 'accidentally' long time ago on hc-forum before vpr appeared.
what do you think about COBRA as a name ?
so viper removed, while PYTHON and COBRA added. =)

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 04:12 AM
you create a division , you create problems .

Absolutely, and scary too.

Religions, languages. Nationalities, rich and poor...all the way down to 3d apps, pc's and mac's, and to betatesters (hc) and nonbetatesters (nonhc) all trigger the same psychological functions and stop us from focusing on similarities instead of on differences.


Humanity is shizofrenic by nature...

hrgiger
02-24-2010, 04:17 AM
p.s. alas, they're not competing with modo 101... they're competing with modo 505 (or whatever it is now) and maya 2010 and max 2010 and si 2010 and blender 2.5 etc. this is why the refrain "no one else is standing still" is really really horrifying if you understand it. stuff of nightmares really.

no quarter may be asked. no quarter will be given.

two men enter. one man leave.

Yes, we know you've belabored the point. But you also have to ask how these programs are going to stand up over time as the demands of people change with advancing computing power. Max is now bloated and is not exactly a multi-processor environment which is what project XBR is all about but that, from what they've implied, is going to take several years (not releases). Personally I think Blender is becoming bloated too. It seems to be much more about how many features they can cram in and not how friendly it is to the artist and they still don't seem to care about having an interface that's worth a toss. Modo(still 401) is nice but without nodes, modifier stack, SDK, whats its long term viability as a contender? It seems most of the large apps have a consistency to their approach but Modo is like a little deviant child.

Matt
02-24-2010, 04:23 AM
v.p.r. = view port renderer
vipr = viewport interactive preview render

completly different...similar to asking if tea is the same as coffee....both are hot drinks but taste totally different.:D

But VPR is more interactive than VIPER ever was! Oooooooh the irony!

Soth
02-24-2010, 04:27 AM
Thats a pitty.

They will come soon. Regarding to resolution, you are able to zoom in and out.

Lewis
02-24-2010, 04:31 AM
VPR looks nice, very good speed (esp in Matts video), cheers.

cresshead
02-24-2010, 04:32 AM
lightwave viper is like 3dsmax active shade...limiting value/use but good for the time it came out which was years ago.

VPR in core is a "renderer in the viewport"

jin choung
02-24-2010, 04:51 AM
Yes, we know you've belabored the point. But you also have to ask how these programs are going to stand up over time as the demands of people change with advancing computing power. Max is now bloated and is not exactly a multi-processor environment which is what project XBR is all about but that, from what they've implied, is going to take several years (not releases).

haha,

And core will likely take several releases (and years) to come all the way back to being a full app.

Can't really knock max on xbr without the swing kinda comin back on ya.

And while it might be tempting to equate "feature rich" with bloat when the home team is feature anorexic, not a lot of folks are gonna be persuaded to that pov when they simply can't do what they want to do cuz the rafters are still being put up.

yeah, no one's standing still but it's like a pitstop - you lose a lot of ground but you do it in expectation that almost everyone else will have to as well.

And then you gotta pray that your pit crew can move faster and better than the other guys'.

And also pray that everyone else does indeed take a pitstop.

Blender 2.5 seems to be making a spectacularly executed pit both in terms of service performed and time. Xsi 7 was similarly quick and deep. We'll have to see about Excalibur but if things can be solved by throwing money at it, it would be tough to bet against autodesk.

And the sister app of modo will really be the immediate competition - the race to "complete app" seems to be on so that will be an interesting match to watch.

Fortunately the solution to winning the race is simple, be better, be faster.

Jin

probiner
02-24-2010, 04:52 AM
Regarding to resolution, you are able to zoom in and out.
Ok, putting it straight simple. Viewport control of the camera in modo is show. You not just rotating the viewpor you are actually placing the camera, defining your field of view, with viewport controls and not XYZ or HPB...

_____________

@ Jin.
Jin, just to sum it up, you don't use LW much these days (i guess) and you see a previewer..., VPR..., aahh ahhh! VIPER. But for most ppl using LW is something that's just there; for other it's used in very particular cases; so no one would think of putting them side to side after seeing what VPR does. That said... i don't like the name too, but heck it could be called CRAP (Core Renderer Advanced Previewer) and still would be great...

Cheers

OlaHaldor
02-24-2010, 04:53 AM
If I may - how's CORE when it comes to LWO files exported from Moi3D? I have HUGE problems getting a few models I've converted from IGES and STEP to look like they should in LW, while the developer of Moi3D only has Modo, he reported it looked fine and there were no problems.

It's really a "Modo vs. CORE?" for me now. Which direction should I take.. I'm biased of course - I want to continue with CORE, but if CORE can't handle it like Modo, I really gotta go the direction the money is coming from - and that's the big *** client that keeps sending me these IGES and STEP files they want animated fully with GI and all, thus going Modo. *sigh*

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 05:12 AM
go modo Ola.
Modo is today, core is tomorow.

Dont be afraid of multiple apps.
When core is done/competive you can always reconsider.

zardoz
02-24-2010, 05:28 AM
I didn't read all the posts here, but I want to ask for one thing. I noticed that to choose a node it still works with drop down menus. Please don't do that. Add some sort of side bar like when we click in 'folders' in windows explorer and get the folders on the side. And with some organizing capabilities, with a reset to default option. I hate the drop down menus we have in lightwave...to choose an image filter, or pixel filter, or a custom object, etc it really sucks.

SBowie
02-24-2010, 05:45 AM
Never confuse VPR with VIPER... ever again!!!!! ;)Right - VPR is pronounced "vee-puhr" ... and since only the illuminati know that, you can use it to expose and snicker at poseurs. :D

probiner
02-24-2010, 05:54 AM
I didn't read all the posts here, but I want to ask for one thing. I noticed that to choose a node it still works with drop down menus. Please don't do that. Add some sort of side bar like when we click in 'folders' in windows explorer and get the folders on the side. And with some organizing capabilities, with a reset to default option. I hate the drop down menus we have in lightwave...to choose an image filter, or pixel filter, or a custom object, etc it really sucks.

:agree: the times you "miss the wrong exit" and have to restart, especially when you are tired, but you know exactly wich node you want.

Afters Effect Effects&Presets window ftw (http://ocentertainment.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/5-effects-and-presets.png)
Go to the folder or just type...

Lightwolf
02-24-2010, 05:59 AM
Go to the folder or just type...
That's where a global search would come in extremely handy... (no need to navigate to a part of the GUI either).

I agree with the treeview in this case though, that's something I suggested for the current LW node editor as well.

Having said that, pop-ups do have their place and can be extremely quick to navigate in certain situations (plus the save a lot of screen space). There's surely room for improvement though.

Cheers,
Mike

zarti
02-24-2010, 05:59 AM
If I may - how's CORE when it comes to LWO files exported from Moi3D? I have HUGE problems getting a few models I've converted from IGES and STEP to look like they should in LW, while the developer of Moi3D only has Modo, he reported it looked fine and there were no problems.

here you have screens from a 'complex shape' done fast in MoI and CORE.
of course, some vpr there didn't hurt me. =)

judge yourself ...
.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82535&stc=1&d=1267016176

825348253582536

OnlineRender
02-24-2010, 06:01 AM
Conspiracy I SAY !

When your on the main category you can see post totals and poster. (25) kinda sad . but if you click that number it will show you all the post by that person ; easy .
But when you click on Rob or any other mods /NT, it just comes up SEARCH MATCH NOT FOUND >>>>

OlaHaldor
02-24-2010, 06:03 AM
go modo Ola.
Modo is today, core is tomorow.

Dont be afraid of multiple apps.
When core is done/competive you can always reconsider.
The reason is: $$$$$$. And time. It takes time to get into a new app, even though Modo and LW probably is mostly the same, it's still a new app.


Any particular reason you export to LWO from Moi? Why not OBJ?

Because OBJ does NOT look good for the particular models I'm exporting. These things are wheel chairs and other very, very, very detailed, complex shapes.

safetyman
02-24-2010, 06:04 AM
Conan the Destroyer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087078/): the waterfall scene, trying to get into the castle.

Now, what do I get? :D

BINGO! You win an all expenses paid trip to your living room couch! I give you permission to stay home from work for a day. (Sorry, that's all I have).

Kuzey
02-24-2010, 06:04 AM
That was a great video Matt....super and impressive. It's amazing how a still image works so well...as opposed to the constant moving target in the official video.

But seriously, Core should come with a health warning like you get on News shows....warning this report contains flash photography. Because someone will blackout or go into an epileptic seizure doing what the guy does in the official video!!

Something like this should be better....update vpr after the movement stops...not during!!!!!!!



If object.manipulation(rotate, scale, movement) = false or scene.manipulation(zoom, rotate, move camera) = false then

VPR.update now!!!

else

Viewport.shading = smooth shading // so we can see what we are doing while zooming/rotating/scaling etc. etc.

end if




Kuzey

Kuzey
02-24-2010, 06:10 AM
PS...it'll also make it look more professional as well :hey:

Kuzey

wsi
02-24-2010, 06:19 AM
Oh well, i don't care about badly comped pictures in newsletters. The news themselves are really good and i especially like the VPR video.

Kuzey
02-24-2010, 06:21 AM
Also what happened to the Avatar report...I thought people were being interviewed etc. for the article??


Kuzey

GandB
02-24-2010, 08:22 AM
BINGO! You win an all expenses paid trip to your living room couch! I give you permission to stay home from work for a day. (Sorry, that's all I have).
Awesome! I'm off to tell my boss about it...he'll be so surprised, and happy for me! :D

As far as the new reveals go; I'm actually pretty excited about things, I actually dig a lot of the new interface. Checking out Matt's video now...

-Keith

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 09:10 AM
Awesome! I'm off to tell my boss about it...he'll be so surprised, and happy for me! :D



fantastic...congratulations.

the best price i once won, was a radio that broadcasted music in 16 bit color and HD resolution.

OlaHaldor
02-24-2010, 09:12 AM
Man you're lucky. I once won a table that didn't do ****. I kept reading the instruction manual out loud, but nothing happened.

Nicolas Jordan
02-24-2010, 09:56 AM
haha,
And the sister app of modo will really be the immediate competition - the race to "complete app" seems to be on so that will be an interesting match to watch.
Jin

I already get the impression that modo is more like Lightwave and Core will likely be less like Lightwave than modo is. I hope I am proven wrong once Core is released but that is definitely the impression I get so far. If I had to guess I would say modo 501 will be released before Core 1.0 comes out and modo 601 before Core 2.0 gets out the door and so on. When I assume Core will finally have some good legs at 3.0 that's when modo should be at 701. It should be interesting how this all pans out.

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 09:57 AM
Man you're lucky. I once won a table that didn't do ****. I kept reading the instruction manual out loud, but nothing happened.

IKEA?...happened to me too, i was ordering the table to assemble itself by reading the instructions to it out loud, but nothing happened.

dont buy Swedish products....bad, bad experience with them (damn bastards won in Hockey...)

OlaHaldor
02-24-2010, 10:23 AM
Hmm yes, I got this funny smelling dinner table.. I believe the package was labelled IKEA Köttbullar.

Lightwolf
02-24-2010, 10:46 AM
IKEA?...happened to me too, i was ordering the table to assemble itself by reading the instructions to it out loud, but nothing happened.
Did you read it out in Swedish?

That's usually my main problem... my Swedish sucks and their understanding of German is usually even worse...

Cheers,
Mike

OlaHaldor
02-24-2010, 01:28 PM
Hahha! Good point, Lightwolf! My swedish is no way near my english skills.

jin choung
02-24-2010, 01:43 PM
oh btw,

as someone mentioned earlier -

COBRA is fine... Comprehensive Omni-B1tch1n' Render Assist

ASP is also good: Actualizing Scene Previewer

MAMBA is cool as well: Mean as a Mother Brender Assistant

jin

Lightwolf
02-24-2010, 01:59 PM
ASP is also good: Actualizing Scene Previewer

Close but no cigar, I'd prefer ASAP ;)

(yes, you can make up your own spelled out version of it)

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
02-24-2010, 02:07 PM
Close but no cigar, I'd prefer ASAP ;)

(yes, you can make up your own spelled out version of it)

Cheers,
Mike

nono,

we're sticking with the ophidia theme... so vipers, pythons, cobras, etc....

i believe one of the design goals was to make this one of the most phallic 3d apps on the market.

we should start in on mushrooms next... shiitake (i love that word), portobello, what have you.

jin

Lightwolf
02-24-2010, 02:10 PM
nono,

we're sticking with the ophidia theme... so vipers, pythons, cobras, etc....

That's so 8-bit and 80ies though... Elite anybody?

What else? Cowmarks, rhinos ... kittens?

Cheers,
Mike

Ĺgrén
02-24-2010, 04:21 PM
It's VPR because it's so quick that you don't have time to read I nor E.

There's a text form assets window in the video. They are planning to add prerendered thumbnails ?

Matt
02-24-2010, 05:56 PM
It's VPR because it's so quick that you don't have time to read I nor E

Hohooooo! Da dum tssssk! Nice one! :D

*Pete*
02-24-2010, 08:59 PM
perhaps VPR should be pronounced like the sound of a dragracing car?...VPRRR..VVVPPPRRRRRRR.....VVVPPPRRRRRROOOOOO MMM!!

erikals
02-24-2010, 09:39 PM
hm, maybe they can add an audio sound when clicking the button...

OlaHaldor
02-25-2010, 01:20 AM
OnRenderComplete:PlayFanfare

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 03:56 AM
Haha....for it to have a cool name it should be complete...which it isn't...yet :hey:

I would call it dustbowl or hurricane...because, if you take it for a spin, your objects will disappear within a mighty dust storm :phone_cal

Kuzey

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 04:10 AM
Oh...I remembered something SplineGod said on the SQ forums.

Can LWHC now handle the same amount of data(high polygon counts) as Core....or is it still limited like LW9.6 and are there plans to fix that??


Kuzey

*Pete*
02-25-2010, 04:41 AM
lwhc is lw 9.6+

If it would be possible to boost the performance to the ridiculously high levels as in core (im speaking of tens of millions of polys in opengl), then it would be unnecessary to make core.

The monster vdr test mentioned earlier was a zbrushed object at 7 million polys
Core handled it easily and vpr rendered it to near finished quality in seconds (like 5-6 seconds) with gi on and all.

9.6 would propably fail to open the file, and even if it did you would not see more than a bounding box of it in layout.
And you would need a lot of ram to render the beast...

Lwhc has the same limitations...the problem is not core, but the old lw.


Once core is advanced enough you can replace lw for core completely.

To be honest, i never understod the limitations of lw until i tried core
(this does not mean i prefer using core more than lw)

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 05:16 AM
lwhc is lw 9.6+

If it would be possible to boost the performance to the ridiculously high levels as in core (im speaking of tens of millions of polys in opengl), then it would be unnecessary to make core.

The monster vdr test mentioned earlier was a zbrushed object at 7 million polys
Core handled it easily and vpr rendered it to near finished quality in seconds (like 5-6 seconds) with gi on and all.

9.6 would propably fail to open the file, and even if it did you would not see more than a bounding box of it in layout.
And you would need a lot of ram to render the beast...

Lwhc has the same limitations...the problem is not core, but the old lw.


Once core is advanced enough you can replace lw for core completely.

To be honest, i never understod the limitations of lw until i tried core
(this does not mean i prefer using core more than lw)

Granted...LWHC is still pretty much 9.6 with some added muscle/changes to work with Core....but that (poly count limit) should have been rectified first...otherwise, what was the point...if you can't render your high density meshes. That's why I was hoping LWHC was killed off in this announcement.

How far off is a proper renderer in Core...I remember Jay saying it was just a few changes needed to port the 9.6 renderer to Core. Or...is Newtek starting over and basing the render engine on the newer technology within the VPR engine?

As I see it, the problem is that Newtek is working on three different versions(9.6.1, LWHC and Core) at the same time. I'd rather have them work on two versions and not three....the 9.6.1 hot fix and Core.

But I do hope they can manage it.

Kuzey

*Pete*
02-25-2010, 05:42 AM
vpr is the renderer.

It is not only a previewer, it will get more improvements for sure, but vpr will be used as the main renderer..

As for boosting lw to handle the data...that is the problem, this is why core is created...lw is at its limits and cant be improved much more.

Core is being built alongside of lw in a way that will allow you to borrow the strenghts of lw for some time ahead, until core is strong enough to stand alone.

Just as core is being designed for tomorows needs, lw was also designed for the needs of a tomorow...but it was so long ago that that tomorow is by now last year...you cant expect lw to last longer than its design allows for.

The original idea was that nt would re-engineer lw to meet future needs, but it turned out to be impossible.
So they are creating core, a clean new design without the same limitations.

Soth
02-25-2010, 05:53 AM
Granted...LWHC is still pretty much 9.6 with some added muscle/changes to work with Core....but that (poly count limit) should have been rectified first...otherwise, what was the point...if you can't render your high density meshes. That's why I was hoping LWHC was killed off in this announcement.


It looks like we will be able to render in CORE, core have renderer and it will have basic composer, so i would guess that we will finish our renders there... but, well, I am not sure. ;)

OnlineRender
02-25-2010, 05:53 AM
vpr is the renderer.

this is why core is created...lw is at its limits and cant be improved much more.

The original idea was that nt would re-engineer lw to meet future needs, but it turned out to be impossible.
So they are creating core, a clean new design without the same limitations.

I've heard that mentioned a good few times now , but still No answer to why the code is becomming reduntant ? , and I know it's mainly hacks to the code to keep it alive ,but what is the actual problem , why is LW unable to adapt ? if that seems to be a huge issue ,because people keep bringing it up .. why isn't the source code for sale or made open source ?


anybody know ?
---------------
edit not wanting to know the whole story , bullet points would be cool , just curious . ,. ,

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 06:05 AM
vpr is the renderer.

It is not only a previewer, it will get more improvements for sure, but vpr will be used as the main renderer..

As for boosting lw to handle the data...that is the problem, this is why core is created...lw is at its limits and cant be improved much more.

Core is being built alongside of lw in a way that will allow you to borrow the strenghts of lw for some time ahead, until core is strong enough to stand alone.

Just as core is being designed for tomorows needs, lw was also designed for the needs of a tomorow...but it was so long ago that that tomorow is by now last year...you cant expect lw to last longer than its design allows for.

The original idea was that nt would re-engineer lw to meet future needs, but it turned out to be impossible.
So they are creating core, a clean new design without the same limitations.


Ahh...that's great news on the render front...better to build from scratch than to mold old code to work in a new environment...even if the render engine is the newest part of 9.6.

As for the other stuff....why continue to develop old LW code (LWHC)...even if you can't use it with high density meshes that Core can create and handle. Why not kill off the middle man and concentrate on Core, without the distractions of keeping old technology up to date...even if you can't actually use it in some situations.

That's my point...keeping LWHC alive, is harming the development of Core....have an option in Core to export to 9.6 format and be done with it.

Kuzey

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 06:12 AM
It looks like we will be able to render in CORE, core have renderer and it will have basic composer, so i would guess that we will finish our renders there... but, well, I am not sure. ;)

Yeah....I guess it's all a matter of time. It would be great if you can produce final renders in Core by the time it's released or in Core1.5 :D

Kuzey

OnlineRender
02-25-2010, 06:13 AM
Yeah....I guess it's all a matter of time. It would be great if you can produce final renders in Core by the time it's released or in Core1.5 :D

Kuzey

It would be great if you didn't need to render at all .

erikals
02-25-2010, 06:19 AM
for stills, maybe one can use Core to render, but for anims i'll surely use 9.6, as it's easier not going back and forth. +using DPont's plugins.

Core will be used for Hard Body Dynamics though, and imported in 96 through MDD

colkai
02-25-2010, 07:38 AM
It's all that back and forth and CORE vs LWHC (i.e. 9.6+) which made me think I'd rather stick with LW9.6 - at least that is only a single workflow.

Do you render in CORE? in LWHC? will both renderers behave the same, will they cover the same features in terms of surfacing and deformation handling ability? Do you need to freeze out of CORE to use in LWHC and so and so forth.

Too many variables for me, maybe when CORE actually becomes a single application, I'll take another look at it.

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 07:47 AM
Thanks to Newtek for chiming in and resolving some of the most pressing and basic questions. Really shows they care for interested people not being too confused, and since many HC members seem to be uncertain about some issues as well, it really got time for a few clear words.
That's what I call a dedicated company. :thumbsup:

It's the little dance we go through...it's part of the procedure now. Anyway...it's what makes Newtek......well...Newtek :hey: :D

BTW...has the HC period been extended to match the release of Core1....or will people have to pay up...to continue with the HC program ??

Kuzey

SBowie
02-25-2010, 08:03 AM
BTW...has the HC period been extended to match the release of Core1....C'mon - it's NewTek. Of course it has. Surely no-one ever seriously thought it wouldn't be.

Nicolas Jordan
02-25-2010, 08:08 AM
Does anyone know if some kind of pop up menu system will be in Core using pop up pie menus or something similar? I would think they would have already tested this under QT and should already know if this is something that can be done.

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 08:11 AM
C'mon - it's NewTek. Of course it has. Surely no-one ever seriously thought it wouldn't be.

Haha...yes, that's why I asked. That and we already had a discussion on the topic and I thought Newtek were actually thinking about it :hey:

Good one guys :thumbsup:

now.....about the other stuff :hey:

Kuzey

SBowie
02-25-2010, 08:21 AM
now.....about the other stuff :hey:Sorry, you have used up your one-wish quota for 2010. Thank you for shopping at Quickie Mart, please come again. :)

dwburman
02-25-2010, 08:26 AM
Isn't Newtek really only developing Core, Fixing bugs in 9.6.1 (no new features), and have producing a few plug-ins to make LWHC? That's not the same as developing 3 apps.

Not being a HC member, I don't have the inside scoop on LWHC, but that's my understanding of what has been said by Newtek.

I'm assuming that after Core is released, the Lightwave 9 series will be officially retired.

colkai
02-25-2010, 09:59 AM
Well "Lightwave with CORE technology" will be CORE, Layout and Modeller (LWHC) and last I heard, it was expected you would *need* to jump into the modified Legacy LW which will be LWHC, to do some things as Core 1.0 will not be a stand-along "do-everything" app.

So for me, it goes from 2 to 3 apps, not exactly the unified application talked about at the start. Eventually, yes, I'm sure it will be.
Jay has pretty much made it clear that as far as he is concerned "LW Legacy" is a dead duck and the future is CORE / LWHC.

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 02:07 PM
Isn't Newtek really only developing Core, Fixing bugs in 9.6.1 (no new features), and have producing a few plug-ins to make LWHC? That's not the same as developing 3 apps.

Not being a HC member, I don't have the inside scoop on LWHC, but that's my understanding of what has been said by Newtek.

I'm assuming that after Core is released, the Lightwave 9 series will be officially retired.

I presume it's more than just producing plug-ins for LWHC. Otherwise, we would have seen faster developments in regards to matching Core's high data limits. Also, on the 9.6.1 side, they are porting the Mac version to Cocoa (finally...we'll get the 64bit goodness), so that is more or less a full app too.

At least as I see it...:hey:

Kuzey

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 02:10 PM
Sorry, you have used up your one-wish quota for 2010. Thank you for shopping at Quickie Mart, please come again. :)

Noooooo....I should have had a choice....I call mulligan...hehe :D

Kuzey

hrgiger
02-25-2010, 02:20 PM
vpr is the renderer.

It is not only a previewer, it will get more improvements for sure, but vpr will be used as the main renderer..



Pete, that's not really correct. VPR is not the CORE rendering engine, rather VPR is showing nearly identical output. So while they achieve (nearly or exactly, not sure which) the same result, they use different methods to get there as VPR is interactive but the CORE render engine is not. No word yet on what kind, if any, output is going to be possible through VPR(like Fprime offers) or if its just being used as a preview agent.

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 02:32 PM
Why doesn't NT develope HC full speed alongside core?
As far as data set sizes are concerned, I'll throw in CA as an example for comparison:
Since CA is easier to extend in HC/9.6 we got some changes there, while core development is more about foundational work. Does that make sense? core is getting the foundational hooks for CA, sure, but the high level controls for us to use will take some more time - so it's only fair for NT so say core v1 "won't have CA", even though they implement the roots relevant for CA - but those will probably be more of interest for TDs and developers. In contrast "handling more data" means deeper changes in the code, it means a lot of digging and testing in LW9.6/HC while this is where core is being worked on heavily anyway! So it's only natural that core will get that ability.
It's always a question of cost/benefit and till now most of the technical development decisions make sense. The faster core will be able to stand alone the better. Can that be argued, the "but a wanna ma ol' LW developed as well" point excluded for a change?



Sure..it makes sense, but extending HC features like CA won't mean it'll be easy to port into Core at a later date. Otherwise, we could have had a full render engine in Core without any real work....since it's the newest part of old LW and should have been the easiest to export. They'll mostly likely rebuild it from scratch anyway...HC just makes the whole thing complicated and slow.

I presume the only reason they are developing it...is to use have backward compatibility...use old 9.6 files and new Core content together in the one app.

Kuzey

Snosrap
02-25-2010, 02:55 PM
I think saying LWHC and core are meant to complement each other is dangerous, since it creates misconceptions of it going both ways (which it does, sure, technically). If I were NT, I wouldn't communicate it like that too much though. The complementing is more in the direction of: core is the next generation app, since it's new, in case of missing features please use LWHC to fill the gaps. Done. Yes, you can get data back to LWHC, how cool is that, but the direction of travelling is towards core... end of story.


I think the reality is that NT just wants to communicate that you can get the complete job done with the tools they have to offer now and the future looks bright for promising new tech. They don’t want to follow in Luxology’s footsteps with “hey we have this great modeler, but if you want to render or animate your creation you need to purchase brand X software, oh and by the way we are not telling you if we will ever offer rendering, animation or rigging in our package but buy modo because it’s a great modeler.” How many would be prospects passed on modo in the early years because of no clear indication of what it was going to become? NT wants to avoid new prospects from passing on Core and LW because it can’t do this or that. Will it be somewhat painful for us old timers and newcomers; probably to a certain extent. But in my limited time using Core it’s been fairly intuitive and easy to use, warts and all.

MentalFish
02-25-2010, 03:12 PM
Well "Lightwave with CORE technology" will be CORE, Layout and Modeller (LWHC) and last I heard, it was expected you would *need* to jump into the modified Legacy LW which will be LWHC, to do some things as Core 1.0 will not be a stand-along "do-everything" app.

So for me, it goes from 2 to 3 apps, not exactly the unified application talked about at the start. Eventually, yes, I'm sure it will be.
Jay has pretty much made it clear that as far as he is concerned "LW Legacy" is a dead duck and the future is CORE / LWHC.

Thats what my impression is too. I have been told directly, "no more classic LW, and 9.6.1 is its final destination". But then again the whole LWHC thing seems to be keeping classic LW around, just rebranded??? Bad marketing decision if you ask me. Should have been LW 10 and CORE 1.0, two seperate products, with seperate license fees, with a couple of plugins/scripts to communicate between them.

When I first saw the tech faq: http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/techfaq.php I had butterflies all over in terms of the possibilities. In many ways, the faq is close to identical to many of my suggestions in the forum and feature requests (i.e. the COLLADA as file format and modular structure of the tech). Based on the tech sheet of what CORE will be, I would have been happy to see a v1.0 that is only a scriptable/programmable foundation in which modeling features could be made by both the community and NewTek. Rendering and animation should have been left out until v3++. You may ask, what's the point of that if it can not be used by artists, well, that's why we should still have LW 10, 11 and 12 released while CORE grows and make its way into production house pipelines, both for FX and game industries.

How long can NewTek afford to promote classic LW as abandonware and CORE as some-time-in-the-future? I really hope they don't break their 3D neck on this, as of right now I guess they only make money on the hardware and video side of things.

I love using LightWave, and will do so for many years (hence the efforts of native LW support in Unity), but it seems my final destination is v9.6.1, until CORE can replace it or I have gone for something else all together. Since CORE seems to be trying to do many of its things similarly to Houdini, I recently tried Houdini and I must say I like it. It's just that for simple polygon modeling its a bit of an overkill, but for animation and procedural goodies... it's schweet! Every input parameter can be animated, have expressions applied and linked to each other. Reminded me a bit of Nuke.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for the future of LW, while using 9.6 to create content for my Unity projects. :goodluck:

Kuzey
02-25-2010, 03:56 PM
Extending features can be something that is done relatively easy or really hard. I guess stuff like the CA advancements or the LWF stuff were either easy or so often requested (as we were told) compared to other stuff (completely new dynamics system? Updated HV?) and also made sense considering what core will be missing initially.

They will not be ported to core. Not directly. Still core features LWF natively from the start for example. And experiences with the LWF implementation in 9.6/HC will show how to best present the LWF controls to the user.
The CA advancements in Layout will make it possible to either port FBX or Collada scenes over to core for rendering or FX work or you can do it via an mdd point cache, so it made sense, cause you can sort of work with CA in core as well, while core does not feature the high-level controls yet.


Sure, if the improvements are easy, why not. If they take a month or so to implement, but if it takes any longer then that...it will just slow everything down. The goal for Newtek should be to get rid of HC as soon as possible and not drag it out for years. Once Core becomes a standalone app, then that's when the good stuff can happen. HC should not be a long term venture.




Which it is/was, the other way round actually, Jay mentioned after the core reveal a few times that several optimizations of the 9.6 render engine were "down"ported from core prototypes... which is something completely different from how the renderer is implemented and actually used and operated in the package.


I'll like to know as well. If Newtek plans on porting the 9.6 render engine or has done so....or are they starting from scratch?



What is "the whole thing"? Why slow? Me confused...
Do you mean LWHC itself? It's just 9.6 with live connections to core. 9.6 also can import and export to core but not in the way Layout and Modeler talk to each other.
Or do you mean the transition process? Which is not hindered much by developing HC (judging from the difference how fast core is shaping up and HC is being being updated), it's more a convenience thing for current users. And I really think that it is nice not to push you into the deep water by force, but let you wade in slowly... :)

EDIT: @Snostrap: Yeah, makes sense...

Slow, because HC is full of hacks and workarounds...adding to that will not be easy. Making that code useful in Core is a different thing, they need to clean the code and test it. Work out why it's working in HC and not in Core...go back to the source and try again etc.

Slow, because working on HC will take time away from working on Core.

That is why Modo is taking years to get where they are...putting hacks on hacks is slow.

BTW...I'm just guessing though...same with everything else :D

Would be good to get info from the horses mouth...Jay...Chuck...where are you guys :hey:

Kuzey

Cageman
02-25-2010, 03:59 PM
So for me, it goes from 2 to 3 apps, not exactly the unified application talked about at the start. Eventually, yes, I'm sure it will be.
Jay has pretty much made it clear that as far as he is concerned "LW Legacy" is a dead duck and the future is CORE / LWHC.

LWHC is Legacy LW though...

GraphXs
02-25-2010, 10:16 PM
It would be great if Newtek let LWHC become open source and let the great plug-in writers continue making wonderful tools for it until Core becomes complete. I bet we would still see some amazing tools for LWHC. This would allow Newtek to focus all its efforts on Core!

Though I bet one of the BIG reasons for VPR coming in V1 is to continue the LW render engine for the "big studios" to continue to use LW as their rendering pipeline. They just gotta figure a great seamless way to make the data come into Core from all the other packages.

jin choung
02-25-2010, 10:29 PM
Though I bet one of the BIG reasons for VPR coming in V1 is to continue the LW render engine for the "big studios" to continue to use LW as their rendering pipeline.

huh?

what "big studios" use lw renderer now?

jin

MentalFish
02-25-2010, 10:32 PM
And to my understanding, VPR is the preview renderer for CORE, not its actual final renderer? Some of the VPR will most likely make it into the final render solution I guess.

Soth
02-26-2010, 02:23 AM
VPR is LW render engine. I am not sure if it will not compromise on quality to deliver better speed, but is nothing like different renderer or something like that.

colkai
02-26-2010, 02:36 AM
I'll keep my fingers crossed for the future of LW, while using 9.6

Yep, pretty much many of my thoughts too.
I've given up on CORE for now, got my refund and will just watch as a passive observer of how it all pans out.

LW9.6 works and if I need bullet physics or such, I can always go to Blender for that. Once the dust has settled, I may look at CORE again in a couple of years time, but to be brutally honest, I doubt I will.

colkai
02-26-2010, 02:42 AM
LWHC is Legacy LW though...

Which really, is partly my point, LW Legacy with add-ons, but wy then "kill" LW Legacy if it's being developed to work with CORE? Why not product CORE as a new side-app? Why not pass on benefits found developing LWHC to the 9.X LW?
Seems strange to 'kill' LW Legacy then rely on a hacked / revised LW Legacy to underpin CORE.
I'll be very interested to see folks reactions to the way it's packaged once 1.0 is finally released.

*Pete*
02-26-2010, 03:16 AM
colkai.

Nt is working with lwhc, lw 9.6.1 and core.

I didnt check 9.61 beta out yet, but to my understanding it is identical to lwhc, minus the stuff needed to link it to core

OnlineRender
02-26-2010, 03:22 AM
got my refund and will just watch as a passive observer of how it all pans out .

th/\t b/\d ?????????"

/\ key is broken ... lol

*Pete*
02-26-2010, 03:23 AM
dbl post

Lewis
02-26-2010, 03:39 AM
colkai.

Nt is working with lwhc, lw 9.6.1 and core.

I didnt check 9.61 beta out yet, but to my understanding it is identical to lwhc, minus the stuff needed to link it to core

AFAIK 9.6.1 is BUG fix ONLY while LWHC includes all that + NEW features and link to CORE.

Skonk
02-26-2010, 04:34 AM
th/\t b/\d ?????????"

/\ key is broken ... lol

I bought into core back when it was first announced.

It very quickly became clear to me that it wasn't going in a good direction and that even stuff that was promised in the core/countdown presentation right at the start wasn't actually going to be in the product when it ships so I requested a refund and opted out.

Since then I've seen nothing to make me regret the discision.

Delays, missinformation, Delays, a few mediocre videos and images, strange naming changes (Lightwave CORE now seems to be Whatever + CORE technology, what ever the hell that means), Delays etc.

I work at a college where we ran over 40 licenses of Lightwave 9, and I had budget to upgrade them to CORE.

But since Newtek were so ambiguious about what the product will actually be and when we are likely to get it, I spent the money on 40 new licenses of 3DS Max instead.

Lightwolf
02-26-2010, 04:44 AM
It would be great if Newtek let LWHC become open source and let the great plug-in writers continue making wonderful tools for it until Core becomes complete. I bet we would still see some amazing tools for LWHC. This would allow Newtek to focus all its efforts on Core!
As much as I (and others) would like to see that, it ain't gonna happen.

NT will certainly not release something as open source that has the potential to dent their market share. Plus, I suspect that there's still plenty of IP in LWHC that they'd like to protect.

Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
02-26-2010, 04:51 AM
It very quickly became clear to me that it wasn't going in a good direction and that even stuff that was promised in the core/countdown presentation right at the start wasn't actually going to be in the product when it ships so I requested a refund and opted out.



Nothing that was mentioned in the CORE reveal video is not in CORE so I'm not sure where you get this.

I respect your decision and the few others who have decided to opt out due to CORE's early state. The process of seeing software develop is not for everyone. But don't make CORE out to be a fail just because its hard for you to look at software in an unfinished state. Every piece of software goes through this, its just usually behind closed doors. Then everyone oohs and aahs when its released like it just magically appeared without all the growing pains they were not witness to.

hrgiger
02-26-2010, 04:53 AM
As much as I (and others) would like to see that, it ain't gonna happen.

NT will certainly not release something as open source that has the potential to dent their market share. Plus, I suspect that there's still plenty of IP in LWHC that they'd like to protect.

Cheers,
Mike

Yeah, Jay has already tried to put the lid on this idea the few other times it was suggested.

Some of the render work in CORE is part of that they'd probably like to protect.

Soth
02-26-2010, 05:17 AM
Nothing that was mentioned in the CORE reveal video is not in CORE so I'm not sure where you get this.

They do not keep promises, how many times they promised to release new videos in couple of weeks?

I am not in doubt that CORE will be great program (although competition is getting better very quickly as well) but all this NewTek mess and baggage is really annoying. have you noticed? There is always something wrong. Reveal video, CORE web page not being updated, no clear and good reason for first delay (we know it was needed and it is probably SDK fault) and recently video given to HC members for review and posted again week later in newsletter and then this awesome picture! This is making me sad and I think made many to reconsider their relationship with this company.

I hope NT will find good person that will be in charge in CORE marketing (person like Matt, smart, responsible, dedicated and talented) thing will change... but until now.

In meantime sh1t happened and now I have my own struggle with NewTek, it is horrible. They are much closer to my eyes than AD than week ago... something that I would think that is impossible for me to say, but I am learning.

The picture made mi sick and is only worse since then... actually I think we should hear sorry about that*, I bet it would look awesome if someone would link it to cgsociety.org, we all here would look like bunch of idiots.

* - especially people who contributed to the newsletter, there is a lot of great LW work showed in the letter but no one is talking about that? Do I need to ask why?

Soth
02-26-2010, 05:22 AM
sorry, double post

Skonk
02-26-2010, 05:27 AM
Nothing that was mentioned in the CORE reveal video is not in CORE so I'm not sure where you get this.

I respect your decision and the few others who have decided to opt out due to CORE's early state. The process of seeing software develop is not for everyone. But don't make CORE out to be a fail just because its hard for you to look at software in an unfinished state. Every piece of software goes through this, its just usually behind closed doors. Then everyone oohs and aahs when its released like it just magically appeared without all the growing pains they were not witness to.

I'm a programmer myself so I have seen plenty of apps in an early state.

That has nothing to do with it, I've written software myself as well as being part of several beta programs for other software.

The problem is getting any sort of real tangable information out of newtek.

There were things mentioned in the first video (which may have since been edited out) such as:
Everything can be animated.
Unified dynamics environment.

And other stuff i cant remember now its been so long.

When I was in the core program I was then told these things were "posible" but wouldn't actually be "enabled" in the version 1 release (so the fields required to store the information are in the engine, but the UI required to allow the user to operate them isn't ready yet).

Not to mention all the stuff about releasing videos on a regular basis etc.

This was the same for a bunch of things.

Now some of these things WILL be in core, but thats the problem, I was told they wouldn't be.

Misinformation and spin-doctoring is all we seem to get from newtek and thats what made me ask for the refund (that and the way that the community was being torn appart, people wanting answers and then people ragging on the people asking questions telling them to keep quiet as if they thought newtek would chuck the rattle out and quit making the program or something).

OnlineRender
02-26-2010, 05:30 AM
see post bellow \/ colkai

colkai
02-26-2010, 05:33 AM
Every piece of software goes through this, its just usually behind closed doors.

Yep, true enough, behind closed doors, always a good place to work on embyronic software. Of course, by the same token, one doesn't tend to advertise something that is still in pre-alpha stage as you don't know what it will be at that point.
Once you step outside of that, things can get a bit "muddy", I personally decided I didn't like the mud so stepped out of the building site. :)

EDIT: Ohh, 4 posts to go to reach 7K - hehe...

Skonk
02-26-2010, 05:34 AM
One of the most anoying things to happen since CORE was announced is what it's done to the community.

Out of the people who bought in, you have a number of them who wants answers (what will we get for the money we paid? when will we get it?)

You then have the people who aggressivly defend newtek to the point of anger when ever anyone posts a question relating to CORE.

It's as if some people are so set on convincing themselves that they havn't wasted their money that they jump on anyone who questions it.

The end result is when ever anyone makes a post asking CORE related questions it turns into a battle.

OnlineRender
02-26-2010, 05:36 AM
I... actually I think we should hear sorry about that, we should thank heavens that no one linked it at cgsociety.org forums, we all here would look like bunch of idiots!

sorry if I kicked the ball about , but :devil: advocate is something that needs to be played .

EDIT : FOOKIN KEYBOARD

Rob did give an un-officail appoligy , which is nice the dude aint even got his coffecup on the table at work and he has been thrown to the dogs "us" . but the guy has uber amounts of talant and Im sure he will throw his weight about when the time is ready .


Matt ; Matt would make an excellent addition , good member , excellent knowledge , good looking "for the ladies " , very talanted .but so would alot of people on this forum , myself included "also sexy",and I am sure if you asked the members to create a promo video with the NT logo attached , it would be broadcast quaility and most people here would do it for free . not me I'm selfish and like money to much " joys of having children , the fekers cost money to feed ,damn my super sperm " .

I didnt mean to start flame wars .

but again your thoughts and opps should be open aired , and I understand why some people feel like there getting shafted .

" you ever had to explain to I client you use LW ,and they go WTF " you then mention Maya and they go " ohhhhhhhhhhh " thats what needs to change .

Soth
02-26-2010, 05:52 AM
Rob did give an un-officail appoligy , which is nice the dude aint even got his coffecup on the table at work and he has been thrown to the dogs "us" . but the guy has uber amounts of taleant and Im sure he will throw his weight about when the time is ready

This is nice and I feel for guy.

What I DO NOT UNDERSTAND is that the picture was on line for like 12 hours! Even if webmaster had problem like bursted appendix I would rather consider unplugging web server than keeping it online.

SBowie
02-26-2010, 06:10 AM
Of course, by the same token, one doesn't tend to advertise something that is still in pre-alpha stage as you don't know what it will be at that point.Indeed it is, as several have mentioned, unusual to involve users to such a degree so early. Hence, I think, the wisdom of making it abundantly clear from the beginning that HC wasn't for everyone, and refraining from anything that remotely smacks of a real advertising campaign. (This is not to defend failure to provide more little 'sneak-peek' videos publicly, etc. That would be a different discussion.)

Put another way, from the first glimpse until now, feature targets haven't drifted appreciably from what I drew from public statements - apart from additions. The things I personally think things could have gone more smoothly (and I think no-one would disagree) involve communication and presentation. Hindsight makes it clear there was something of a disconnect between expectations aroused and resources available to fulfill them in those areas. Still, I remain keen on the process as one which permits users who are prepared to 'put on their wellies' (did I get that right?) to be involved in seminal ways.

(By the way, Colkai, please be assured I'm not quibbling with you, your point, nor its presentation. If we were all as diplomatic as you, one would be hard pressed to find an argument in these forums.)

Kuzey
02-26-2010, 06:15 AM
Btw...as far as FBX or Collada scenes go, I see them as bug issues...if they don't support bones and animation etc. So...I expect the Collada format in Core to be near perfect, as that is the new format and I expect those features/improvements will be included in the 9.6.1 hot fix as well.

That's one reason why Core would have basic bones and animation features now...to test the Collada format and make sure it's working well.

Of course...I'm just guessing :D

Kuzey

SBowie
02-26-2010, 06:25 AM
It's as if some people are so set on convincing themselves that they havn't wasted their money that they jump on anyone who questions it.I think you're right, at times some have been overly aggressive in defending their decision, the HC program, etc. At the same time, some others have been hyper-critical ... thankfully, most have been neither. It's pointless to engage in a 'Yeah, but you started it!' debate.

It's easy to avoid this kind of over-heated adversarial mindset by simply remembering two items from the official forum moderation policy. Among things listed as unwelcome are "Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature" and "Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members". Pretty much everyone here is a customer, hence should be free to offer 'constructive criticism of a non-malicious nature' without being being subjected to ridicule or verbal abuse.

colkai
02-26-2010, 07:03 AM
(By the way, Colkai, please be assured I'm not quibbling with you, your point, nor its presentation. If we were all as diplomatic as you, one would be hard pressed to find an argument in these forums.)

Not taken that way I assure you Sir. :)
Thanks for the compliment, I do try to censure my more knee-jerk and rabid thoughts. ;D
One can have diametrically opposed ideas but still get along. Me and my old work colleague (who is now over the pond) used to debate a lot of stuff, but never stopped us from having a great working relationship. (edit: though when you both agree there is nothing finer than bacon and sausage on toast, everything else you disagree on is trivial ;) ).

Heck, my best mate of some 45+ years likes things I totally hate, mind you, being such good mates, I never miss a chance to let him know how crappy they are. :jester: :p

SBowie
02-26-2010, 07:24 AM
(edit: though when you both agree there is nothing finer than bacon and sausage on toast, everything else you disagree on is trivial ;) ).Just when I thought poutine couldn't be beaten in the 'instant coronary' category, I saw it listed somewhere recently with bacon added. (Dial 9-1-1, I'm going in ...)

OnlineRender
02-26-2010, 07:25 AM
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm bacon , I JUST DONt get veggies .

colkai
02-26-2010, 07:40 AM
If we weren't meant to eat pigs, they shouldn't of been made of meat. :D :D
(I actually know of veggies who were drawn back to the "dark side" simply because they missed bacon so much :p )

Stevie B - gawd - that stuff is definitely a coronary on a plate! (I'd actually never heard of it before).

Now that right there is how to de-rail a thread :D :D

Nicolas Jordan
02-26-2010, 07:47 AM
One of the most anoying things to happen since CORE was announced is what it's done to the community.

Out of the people who bought in, you have a number of them who wants answers (what will we get for the money we paid? when will we get it?)

You then have the people who aggressivly defend newtek to the point of anger when ever anyone posts a question relating to CORE.

It's as if some people are so set on convincing themselves that they havn't wasted their money that they jump on anyone who questions it.

The end result is when ever anyone makes a post asking CORE related questions it turns into a battle.

:agree: I think your comments are right on the money. That's pretty much what I think about it all too.

tyrot
02-26-2010, 08:28 AM
as a long term waver... I really dont get this HC deal .... I mean what is wrong with updating 9.6 to 10..11. 12..till core is ready. AS a devoted 9.6 fanboy i would love to see my LW 10 communicating really well with Core and then i would jump it. Right now im totally lost...

We were complaining about about ...what....yeah...separate applications for layout and modeler.. Unified application! Soon we will have hmm 2 layouts 2 modelers 1 combo... WOW... !

Ok for now im staying with my SOFTCORE which is 9.6 ...

Cageman
02-26-2010, 08:31 AM
as a long term waver... I really dont get this HC deal .... I mean what is wrong with updating 9.6 to 10..11. 12..till core is ready. AS a devoted 9.6 fanboy i would love to see my LW 10 communicating really well with Core and then i would jump it. Right now im totally lost...

We were complaining about about ...what....yeah...separate applications for layout and modeler.. Unified application! Soon we will have hmm 2 layouts 2 modelers 1 combo... WOW... !

Ok for now im staying with my SOFTCORE which is 9.6 ...

LWHC is a continuation of LW9.6... the difference is that you have to pay for it and when doing so, you get CORE bundled with it. LWHC is the next version of LW classic.

colkai
02-26-2010, 08:43 AM
LWHC is the next version of LW classic.

Or to be exact, the final version of LW Legacy. ;)

Soth
02-26-2010, 08:58 AM
as a long term waver... I really dont get this HC deal .... I mean what is wrong with updating 9.6 to 10..11. 12..till core is ready. AS a devoted 9.6 fanboy i would love to see my LW 10 communicating really well with Core and then i would jump it. Right now im totally lost...

We were complaining about about ...what....yeah...separate applications for layout and modeler.. Unified application! Soon we will have hmm 2 layouts 2 modelers 1 combo... WOW... !

I really do not understand, why are you lost?

cresshead
02-26-2010, 09:18 AM
there is always a choice....

some are harder to swallow than others mind you...:D

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82620&d=1267201103



http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82622&d=1267203014