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Ge4-ce
09-06-2003, 01:49 AM
Ok, as a Fundamentalist on the Mac-side,.. I suggest a Poll. I'm curious why we choose for Mac.

I did not opt for a: "all of the above" button in this poll, because that would be too easy..

drclare
09-06-2003, 05:23 AM
Id say that first and foremost Apple means innovation. I know the PC people would probably debate this issue, but Apple is always the driving force in personal computing technology. Apple developed Firewire, it was the first personal computer to offer built in DV support, FCP, DVD Studio Pro, the beautiful flat panel cinema displays, OS X, the list goes on and on.

Jimzip
09-06-2003, 06:10 AM
I chose the innovative option. You're 100% right drclare.
Let's not forget the whole 'point and click' technology, ah the 80's..

For a few years, the Mac world slid, but the second Jobs got back into it all, Apple geared up again and has been going stronger and stronger since.
I love Apple because I know everything I get works. (Works meaning general operation, as well as working with other things (integration), working together with all Apple's other products.)
Also, the designs are appealing and everything is stable, software & hardware.
As well as, of course, OS X. (I love this OS!)


PC people haven't had enough time to realise how much the Mac world has changed. Give 'em a couple more months. ;)

Jimzip :D

JackDeL
09-06-2003, 08:49 AM
I use the Mac because:

1) it doesn't get in my way. It allows me to concentrate my effort on the project at hand instead of some glitchy system issue.

2) Apple has been, and still is the source of innovation for the entire pc industry. Everyone waits to see what Apple does then copies them. (The Itunes music store is only one good example)

3) It simply works.

4) It runs LIGHTWAVE!:D

5) It's not microsoft.

Nakia
09-06-2003, 09:16 AM
I originally bought my Powermac G4 cause of the UNIX. At the time I used a Sparcstaition 20 as a desktop and was Soalris 8 Cert working under Sun. So I was all in UNIX. My other Desktop was a 500Mhz AMD Athlon Classic (The first Athlon). Which was seeing it days and suck at anything graphic.
After I got it I was BLOWN away by it Ease Of Use. I was shock. I couldn't stop (and still can't) talking about all the cool features it comes with. Its like driving a Cadillac, so smoothe.
After I bought it Apple started buying up all the cool Apps like Shake, and Logic Audio, then they drop the iLife as a package. DVD Studio Pro and Final Cut Pro (Which I ended up buying) are top-notch which is all own by Apple.
But the BIGGEST thing that really matter. Is that I became an Apple User. I never knew buying a computer can put you into a social group so cool as the Apple Users. No-matter what Apple you own you are a Apple user. We run into each other in the streets and it like we are Lodge members. Never any fuss like: your is too slow or mines is better. We smile talk apple talk exchange .mac info.
All of this unfolded on me over time, I did see any of this before I bought the Apple. All I knew was OS X was UNIX.

Nakia
09-06-2003, 09:19 AM
I did see any of this before I bought the Apple. All I knew was OS X was UNIX.
I meant say "I didn't see any of this"

This a view alot of non-apple users have. You really can see or feel the Apple way unless dive into it.

Ge4-ce
09-06-2003, 10:36 AM
Yeah.. this is a fact.. We do are a special community.. At the most places, PC people keep complaining about this and that.. and speed so and driversissue here and there... only when you say you are a Mac user, then suddenly their machine runs perfect! when the meeting breaks up you here them behind your back saying: "so you think you can find those drivers??? it's driving me nuts!"

Then I think..

When we apple-folks talk about our machines, it's always: "woow cool! check those new iApps! cool, they are free! Heck we want panter, and we want it yesterday!! What will Steve announce next? Will it be....

Windows world is so boring.. everyone knows what comes next. A new processor with a 25% speed advantage every 3 times a year?

that's it.. And some cool new features that apple had 2 years ago are now implimented in pc's.. :rolleyes:

mlinde
09-06-2003, 02:20 PM
Although I enjoy my Mac, the honest answer for me is that I use my Mac because I'm too invested to switch to a PC. When you look at the cost of upgrades or switching platforms for a large number of applications (and data) it becomes an expensive step to switch.

Back when I bought my G4, I did the honest research. To get the comparable PC would cost about $250 less than the machine I bought. To get my software switched to run would cost almost an additional $10K. So, buy a $3000 machine and continue down the path, or buy a $2975 machine, and purchase the Win version of all my software for an additional $9000+.

I love my G4, but it ain't all that. I still look at my older PIII/450 running Win2K, and it runs just as well as my G4, and if I really wanted to, I could put a real video card in it (ah, how I wish for a Quadro4), move my additional USB/FW PCI card over, and have all the functionality of the Mac, and the machine would probably run LW better than my G4, simply because of the video card.

There are a lot of small benefits to the Mac for me. The little things Apple does well that people just ignore, or pass over because they've managed to develop a method that works on their PC. Like video I/O, especially with Firewire. It just works with the Mac. Like digital camera file transfers. It just works. Like networking. Sure, I made all these things work just as well on the Windows machines I use. It took longer, and has more hiccups than the Mac, but overall it works there as well...after a bit more work.

Triple G
09-06-2003, 03:30 PM
In all honesty, the main reason I'm on a Mac is that that was what I was told I should buy when I was a college student. I was majoring in Graphic Design, and in that world, the Mac was (and for many, still is) hailed as King. So when it came time for me to upgrade to a new machine a few years ago, I was basically in the same boat as mlinde described. I could buy a new G4 and continue using a Mac, or I could get a slightly cheaper PC and then incur the expense of thousands of dollars to purchase PC versions of all my software. If only all software manufacturers were like Newtek, and included both Windows and Mac installers in a single license, the world would truly be a better place.

I do like my Mac, and I don't regret buying it, but I do long for a machine that can support PROFESSIONAL-level graphics cards like the Wildcat, Quadro, and FireGL...not those souped-up gamers cards that Apple tries to pass off as "Pro". That's really the only thing that bothers me...well, that and the fact that I almost invariably have to wait for any third-party tools/plugins to be ported to the Mac...usually months after the PC version has been available (if they ever get ported at all). It is a bit of a drag, but I do like the stability of OSX, and the ease of use that it offers. Like so many have said...things just work. Plug in a digital camera...it works. Hook up a firewire drive...it works. Connect another Mac via ethernet...it works. Very little hassle and/or maintenance required. That being said, I do plan on getting a PC sometime soon, and will probably split my tasks between the two. The bulk of my 3D work will likely be done on my PC, while things such as Photoshop and any video editing I need to do will be done on my Mac.

js33
09-06-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by drclare
Id say that first and foremost Apple means innovation. I know the PC people would probably debate this issue, but Apple is always the driving force in personal computing technology. Apple developed Firewire, it was the first personal computer to offer built in DV support, FCP, DVD Studio Pro, the beautiful flat panel cinema displays, OS X, the list goes on and on.

Apple has had some innovations but usually they just buy stuff from other companies and then make their design around it.
Almost all PCs now come with at least one or more IEEE1394 ports. Apple bought FCP from Macromedia. Apple bought Spruce out to make DVD Studio Pro. Apple cinema screens are Samsung LCDs. OSX was made with Next technology, BSD and the Mach kernel. None of these were made at Apple from scratch. They bought others technology and made their products. I think Apple made great products from others technology but you have to give credit where it's due also. Also their Hypertransport technology was largely developed by AMD. The G5 largely IBM with some design by Apple. Also the Superdrive is a Pioneer. Apple just changes the name of things to make it look like they developed it.

Cheers,
JS

js33
09-06-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Jimzip
I chose the innovative option. You're 100% right drclare.
Let's not forget the whole 'point and click' technology, ah the 80's..

Jimzip :D

Oh yeah that technology was taken directly from the Xerox Palo Alto research center. Apple is good at taking others ideas and turning them into viable products though and I give them credit for that.

Cheers,
JS

js33
09-06-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by JackDeL
I use the Mac because:

1) it doesn't get in my way. It allows me to concentrate my effort on the project at hand instead of some glitchy system issue.

2) Apple has been, and still is the source of innovation for the entire pc industry. Everyone waits to see what Apple does then copies them. (The Itunes music store is only one good example)

3) It simply works.

4) It runs LIGHTWAVE!:D

5) It's not microsoft.

I think you have it backwards. There have been many music store companies on the web for years. Again I give Apple credit for taking other peoples ideas and making a more viable product of it.

Cheers,
JS

mlinde
09-06-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by js33
Apple has had some innovations but usually they just buy stuff from other companies and then make their design around it.
Almost all PCs now come with at least one or more IEEE1394 ports. Apple bought FCP from Macromedia. Apple bought Spruce out to make DVD Studio Pro. Apple cinema screens are Samsung LCDs. OSX was made with Next technology, BSD and the Mach kernel. None of these were made at Apple from scratch. They bought others technology and made their products. I think Apple made great products from others technology but you have to give credit where it's due also. Also their Hypertransport technology was largely developed by AMD. The G5 largely IBM with some design by Apple. Also the Superdrive is a Pioneer. Apple just changes the name of things to make it look like they developed it.

Cheers,
JS

Man you are a bit negative here!

Apple did not develop all of these technologies from the ground up, it's true. However, what company put IEEE/1394 on a desktop computer first with the software to edit video built in? What company first made flat panel displays the primary (and now only) display option in a desktop package? What company installed and shipped the first desktop computer with built in DVD-R AND the software to burn DVDs? What company built and shipped the first desktop computers with built-in networking? 100-base-T ethernet? Gigabit ethernet? What company developed the first system software to play back video on a desktop computer?

All of these things appeared on a Mac first. By pushing the envelope of hardware and software, Apple has brought many of these technologies to the mainstream. No, they didn't invent everything they sold. How much better is FCP 4 than Macromedia Final Cut? What about DVD Studio Pro? I don't claim that Apple invented everything. I do claim that Apple puts in the effort to make it better, that Apple does the little things better than their competitors.

js33
09-06-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by mlinde
Man you are a bit negative here!

Apple did not develop all of these technologies from the ground up, it's true. However, what company put IEEE/1394 on a desktop computer first with the software to edit video built in? What company first made flat panel displays the primary (and now only) display option in a desktop package? What company installed and shipped the first desktop computer with built in DVD-R AND the software to burn DVDs? What company built and shipped the first desktop computers with built-in networking? 100-base-T ethernet? Gigabit ethernet? What company developed the first system software to play back video on a desktop computer?

All of these things appeared on a Mac first. By pushing the envelope of hardware and software, Apple has brought many of these technologies to the mainstream. No, they didn't invent everything they sold. How much better is FCP 4 than Macromedia Final Cut? What about DVD Studio Pro? I don't claim that Apple invented everything. I do claim that Apple puts in the effort to make it better, that Apple does the little things better than their competitors.


No I'm not being negative. I'm just pointing out where these technologies come from because a lot of Mac users probably do think that Apple invented all this stuff. I also pointed out that Apple does indeed take an idea and run with it to create nice products from them.

Cheers,
JS

Nakia
09-06-2003, 07:21 PM
I own this box:
http://www.hp.com/workstations/ia32/xw6000/
and a Powermac G4 933. The powermac G4 see 90% of my action (everyday use, it even my DVD player when I work out).
It all do to the workflow of Mac OS X that cause it to be used so much, speed wise my PC takes it.


I love the Mac so much its going to Apple Store to see if I can get all the dust clean out of it (runs 24/7).

toby
09-06-2003, 07:41 PM
"No I'm not being negative"

You posted three times to tell us that Apple "takes ideas", as if other companies don't! Every point you made was negative - including when you said 'Apple does nice things with the ideas that they STEAL.' - no one was talking about what Apple 'invented' - Did Newtek invent 3D??? Radiosity??? HDR??? IK???

js33
09-06-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by toby
"No I'm not being negative"

You posted three times to tell us that Apple "takes ideas", as if other companies don't! Every point you made was negative - including when you said 'Apple does nice things with the ideas that they STEAL.' - no one was talking about what Apple 'invented' - Did Newtek invent 3D??? Radiosity??? HDR??? IK???


Toby,

No need to get upset.
I never once said Apple "stole" anything. I posted to 3 different posts. I never said other companies don't do the same thing either. The point is that a lot of people DO think Aplle invented these things. I just pointed out where they came from that's all.

Cheers,
JS

toby
09-06-2003, 08:22 PM
Three negative posts having nothing to do with the thread nor in response to any point that anyone made.

I'm going through cycles of being entertained then REALLY SICK of anti-Mac people coming to the MAC FORUM to spew their dislikes.

Don't bother denying it anymore, it's getting old. "I'm not anti-Mac, but they're really not that good"

js33
09-06-2003, 08:36 PM
Toby,

I think you need to take a chill pill dude. ;)
The reason I come here is because I am a Mac owner. True I have been a Wintel user much longer but I like the Mac too. I just point out inaccuracies where I see them. Most Mac only people go through life thinking Apple did all these things and I just have to point out that the computing world is much bigger than that.

Cheers,
JS

mlinde
09-06-2003, 08:39 PM
Geez, everybody (including myself) take 5, go outside, and breathe the polluted air! We take this computer stuff waaaay too seriously.

js33
09-06-2003, 09:01 PM
Yeah. You would think we all have no lives. :D
I'm going to take the dog for a walk. :p

Cheers,
JS

toby
09-06-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by js33
I just point out inaccuracies where I see them.

Where was the innaccuracy?



Most Mac only people go through life thinking Apple did all these things

That's just as likely as you thinking that NT invented HDR. It's an assumption (not to mention an insult) you've made and brought up for your own reasons, because no one else spoke a word about it.

"Taking 5" doesn't work anymore, I guess I need to follow js's example and go to the PC forum and 'remind them' of Microsoft's criminal conviction.

js33
09-06-2003, 09:39 PM
No one said Apple did anything criminal. Go ahead and post about Microsoft most people including me would probably agree with you. :D

The inacurracy is believing that Apple innovated all these technologies which is simply not true. Sure they took them and made good products I never disputed that.

Cheers,
JS

toby
09-06-2003, 10:20 PM
It's not inaccurate to say that Apple is innovative. It's a matter of opinion. No one here said that Apple invented these things, but your assumption gives you a chance to say yet another negative thing about Apple, despite having nothing to do with the thread.

What is inaccurate is saying that we think that Apple invented everything it sells. Should I assume that you think MS invented word processing?

prospector
09-07-2003, 02:56 AM
When I get Shapeshifter on my Amiga..I too can use a mac:D

kite
09-07-2003, 03:40 AM
#1. Apple's look good.
#2. Apple's behave good.
#3. The mac community (I love you :) )
#4. A complete virus free web.

Jimzip
09-07-2003, 05:49 AM
Toby, Js33 isn't angry, he was just trying to make the point (the fact that the posts were a little off topic is another issue ;) ) that Apple didn't create all the technology they use today. Thats cool, I like the fact that they are sifting the best out and developing it into good products.
And yeah, I know Xerox made point and click, but as you said Js, Apple did something good with it.

Jimzip :D

P.S. Take our computers too seriously! Of course we do! :cool:

Ge4-ce
09-07-2003, 07:26 AM
This thread is gonna end up in platform wars again :D

I will throw some gas on the fire:

What technology did Microsoft steel?

Or to make the list shorter:

What technology did Microsoft develop?

Or to be more accurate:

What technology did Microsoft steel and made it worse?

www.****microsoft.com

Ge4-ce
09-07-2003, 07:27 AM
problem is that you can't say **** on this forum.. none actually.. but you all know what the **** meens in the www.****microsoft.com url don't you?? :D

If you don't... I don't give a ****... :rolleyes:

RonGC
09-07-2003, 09:05 AM
Own three Macs now, ordered the fourth a dual G5 :-)

Why do i own a Mac...

1) dislike Bill Gates

2) came from the amiga, another innovtive user friendly computer.

3) really dislike Bill gates

4) Great innovations and designs that are meant for people, not corporations.

5) hate Bill gates, Apple system ideas were stolen by Gates, when he used to work together with Jobs then modified to become windows many years ago.

Ron Cartier

js33
09-07-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Jimzip
Toby, Js33 isn't angry, he was just trying to make the point (the fact that the posts were a little off topic is another issue ;) ) that Apple didn't create all the technology they use today. Thats cool, I like the fact that they are sifting the best out and developing it into good products.
And yeah, I know Xerox made point and click, but as you said Js, Apple did something good with it.

Jimzip :D

P.S. Take our computers too seriously! Of course we do! :cool:

Yeah see Jimzip has the right attitude. I wasn't being negative just pointing out a little history. You could say the same thing about almost all technology companies. I was just pointing out that Apple is no different in that regard. They are smart about buying companies or technology and making them better.

Cheers,
JS

Nakia
09-07-2003, 09:31 AM
I'm not sure if you guys remember when OS X started selling real good the thing was to write a small good App for OS X then post it on Version tracker and if it was good Apple was making deals.

There is alot of good Apps that don't make it.
Apple does a real good job at buying these Companies or Apps up.
Some of these apps were loosing grown until Apple stepped in. One its good for employment growth.
This helps Apple to make a more Well rounded Systems with good support.
It will never be a quesition on what real-time video editing card or DV Deck that FCP will support. It will be cut and dry. Apple now own and makes the App, the OS and the Machine. Patches for these Apps will really fix or add features.
I'm pretty sure if Microsoft made the Hardware also they will be doing the samething.
If Apple can afford to buy the company or the App let it be. Apple is not buying these company and trashing what they made ( like nVidia buying of Exluna which was Pixar Renderman rival even though Pixar shut them down first). They are using it. Along with this buying up stuff Apple is making solid deals with other big companies like Sun Microsystems.
Really there are only a few Multi-Media areas Apple don't own a product in. Paint, Vecter Programs and 3D App. No tellig if a professional version of iPhoto will show up.
I just want to know if Apple plans on buying a 3D app company? We never know.
All this make Apple the perfect one stop shop Company!!

js33
09-07-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Nakia
I'm not sure if you guys remember when OS X started selling real good the thing was to write a small good App for OS X then post it on Version tracker and if it was good Apple was making deals.

There is alot of good Apps that don't make it.
Apple does a real good job at buying these Companies or Apps up.
Some of these apps were loosing grown until Apple stepped in. One its good for employment growth.
This helps Apple to make a more Well rounded Systems with good support.
It will never be a quesition on what real-time video editing card or DV Deck that FCP will support. It will be cut and dry. Apple now own and makes the App, the OS and the Machine. Patches for these Apps will really fix or add features.
I'm pretty sure if Microsoft made the Hardware also they will be doing the samething.
If Apple can afford to buy the company or the App let it be. Apple is not buying these company and trashing what they made ( like nVidia buying of Exluna which was Pixar Renderman rival even though Pixar shut them down first). They are using it. Along with this buying up stuff Apple is making solid deals with other big companies like Sun Microsystems.
Really there are only a few Multi-Media areas Apple don't own a product in. Paint, Vecter Programs and 3D App. No tellig if a professional version of iPhoto will show up.
I just want to know if Apple plans on buying a 3D app company? We never know.
All this make Apple the perfect one stop shop Company!!


Well Apple in a way already owns a 3D company. Pixar. Maybe they could release a Luxo Jr. 3D app. :D

Cheers,
JS

Nakia
09-07-2003, 09:59 AM
Do Apple realy owns Pixar? Steve Jobs is there. But I was under the understing it haas nothing to do with Apple.
In the a recent 3D mag (I will get the name soon, it was the one with Hulk on the cover) they had and interview with one of Pixar founders, they talk how Pixar spun off of ILM then when they Hired Steve Jobs, they said Steve Jobs was one of the best salesman in the business back then.
I don't think Apple own Pixar.

js33
09-07-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Nakia
Do Apple realy owns Pixar? Steve Jobs is there. But I was under the understing it haas nothing to do with Apple.
In the a recent 3D mag (I will get the name soon, it was the one with Hulk on the cover) they had and interview with one of Pixar founders, they talk how Pixar spun off of ILM then when they Hired Steve Jobs, they said Steve Jobs was one of the best salesman in the business back then.
I don't think Apple own Pixar.

No Apple doesn't own Pixar but Steve Jobs does. Pixar didn't hire Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs bought Pixar from ILM.

Cheers,
JS

Nakia
09-07-2003, 11:19 AM
He paid $10 million for it
I found this short link
http://www.pixar.com/companyinfo/history/1986.html

js33
09-07-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Nakia
He paid $10 million for it
I found this short link
http://www.pixar.com/companyinfo/history/1986.html


Yes that's correct. I think he made a wise investment. :D

Cheers,
JS

Nakia
09-07-2003, 11:47 AM
On the Monster Inc. DVD the making of it they show Steve Jobs office, pretty empty. :)
I heard that there was some kind of conflict with Pixar providing heavy support of PRman for Mac unless there was a real Demand for it. With the Release of Maya on Mac, that probably was the Demand for Renderman that Pixar needed and the release of the G5.
To bad Lightwave on Mac don't have any Prman or any other Renderman compliant support. Even Blender 3D has Good Renderman support.

js33
09-07-2003, 11:53 AM
Well now that the author of the Lightwave renderer has left who knows what Newtek will do in the near future. I predict they may start to open LW up more instead of being so proprietary as they have been in the past.

Cheers,
JS

Karl Hansson
09-07-2003, 12:56 PM
I like macs because they offer such a complete out of the box solution with lots of nice tools and features. So what if apple didn't invent some of them, I couldnt care less who invented it. The nice thing is that these features are very nice, very stable and many of them comes with the hardware when you buy it something that many seem to forget when arguing that macs are expencive. In short, Macs are damn neat computers.

js33
09-07-2003, 01:07 PM
Yes now if they would only solve the graphic card situation. :mad:

Cheers,
JS

Karl Hansson
09-07-2003, 01:20 PM
Personally I don't feel that the graphic card situation is all that bad as some people make it out to be.

Another reason to add to the list, Mac OSX is addictive...:D

toby
09-07-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by js33
Yeah see Jimzip has the right attitude. I wasn't being negative just pointing out a little history. You could say the same thing about almost all technology companies. I was just pointing out that Apple is no different in that regard.

So it's just coincidence that every single post of yours on the Mac forum is about how they aren't as good as we think, and PC's aren't as bad as we think, and even "maybe PC people are more honest". Not once have you mentioned some good news, mentioned a drawback of PC's, said what you like about Macs, etc. much less talked about using LW on a Mac.

Now you don't even wait for the subject to be brought up - I don't buy your sugar-coating anymore.

Nakia
09-07-2003, 01:54 PM
Well I just boosted up my PC workflow. I bought Appleworks!!! It comes with both PC and Mac version
:-)

Nakia
09-07-2003, 02:01 PM
Well like I said earlier I use both platforms.
Heres a pic of my Basement shot, kind of old now Both Computers have 21inch monitors and I added a SGI to the mix.

Nakia
09-07-2003, 02:02 PM
Second try.

js33
09-07-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by toby
So it's just coincidence that every single post of yours on the Mac forum is about how they aren't as good as we think, and PC's aren't as bad as we think, and even "maybe PC people are more honest". Not once have you mentioned some good news, mentioned a drawback of PC's, said what you like about Macs, etc. much less talked about using LW on a Mac.

Now you don't even wait for the subject to be brought up - I don't buy your sugar-coating anymore.

Maybe you just take everything to be negative. Jimzip took it the right way but you apparently can't.

I tried using LW on the Mac but that 15" screen is too small compared to using 2 19" monitors on the PC. I'm still waiting for the G5 dual benchmarks to come out to see if that would be viable option for Lightwave. Good news about Macs.
I like watching QT trailers and iTunes on the Mac but I can do that on the PC as well with WinAmp for music. Basically the systems are redundant as I can do the same things on the PC as on the Mac and I have 2 19" on the PC so I use that the most. I like the iPod. :D I'm getting the free FCP Express. I like the iApps. I use the PC for watching DVDs because I can make it full screen with a pan and scan option. I use LW7.5, AE5, Photoshop7, Director8.5.1, FlashMX, GoLive5, SoundForge6, CuBase5.1, DFX+ and many others on the PC because I had those before the iMac except for DFX which I got with the 8 upgrade deal.
I have used the iMac to render some scenes during crunch time and it helped. I would like a 23" Cinema display that would be sweet. I hear they are coming out with a 30". I like OSX but I also like WinXP. It works, it never crashes and it helps me make money. All I do with the iMac is play around on it right now.

Cheers,
JS

js33
09-07-2003, 02:20 PM
Nakia,

Looks like you could use a proper desk for that stuff. :D

Cheers,
JS

Nakia
09-07-2003, 02:27 PM
Yes, Its all crazy, I have the SGI o2 and Sun Ultra5 next to the PC monitor on another Coffee stand. Then I had to move the Mac to the top shelf with scanner to put the 2 21 inch CRTs on the desk. I'm shopping for a new desk for the PC and SGI box. The SGI has a 21inch CRT on the side waiting to be used, that will make it a total of 5 21 inch CRT s which are the Space killers and heat monsters. Right now it shares monitors with PC. Cool thing about the Sun monitors its dual input.
Well I put the mac on the Proper Desk :D

mlinde
09-07-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Karl Hansson
Personally I don't feel that the graphic card situation is all that bad as some people make it out to be.
If you haven't tried a pro-level card, you don't know what you are missing. I used to go to user group meetings where the first 10 people sat in front of workstations with Wildcat cards in them. Modeling, working in wireframe LW, even turning on surfaces and OGL lights was WAY different than on my G4 (with the nVidia 4MX). So much so that a friend of mine bought a PC with a Quadro card in it just for Lightwave.

toby
09-07-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by js33
Maybe you just take everything to be negative. Jimzip took it the right way but you apparently can't.

"Apple just changes the name of things to make it look like they developed it."
"I tried using LW on the Mac but that 15" screen is too small" "I'm still waiting for the G5 dual benchmarks to come out to see if that would be viable option for Lightwave." "All I do with the iMac is play around on it right now"

What's positive or good news about that?

Obviously you need an example of a PC user that's not anti-Mac -
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10539

Nakia
09-07-2003, 02:56 PM
iTunes does alot more then WinAmp. I just bought whole albums (off of iTunes store), with click had it burned to a CD. If I wanted I could have a score made drop it in iTunes the have itunes export to iDVD.
iTunes is way ahead of WinAmp, I rather use FreeAmp or XMMS on Linux.
Also you have to Download WinAmp and install it. Thats the Apple advantage, a fresh install gives me all those tools.
I do the opposite, I watch DVDs on Mac. On top of the right monitor is an External Sun DVD SCSI player that I use on PC, it plays DVDs real good. But since I connected two 21inch monitors to the Apple I play DVD in one monitor and do work in the other, or I use it to play DVDs when working out.
Also if you don't like something on Apple with the FREE Dev Tools you can make you own App.
I can't wait for Appleworks, which seems to one of Apple not so favorate app, but I will love it.
The PC in that pic is my Gamer. Though I do play WarCraft on the Mac, the quality on the Mac and PC for Warcraft is the same.

Nakia
09-07-2003, 03:05 PM
one cool built in Mac iApp thing is to take your Lightwave final renders import them into iPhoto, do what you have to do to them. Then click on the iDVD button so you can make your Demo DVD or just have a book made or prints sent to you.
So even if your Mac is not the greatest LW box it can do some cool tricks to the final renders. Also Graphic Converter works when needed (I rather use ImageMagick which is commandline and can do work while you not login using cron jobs)

js33
09-07-2003, 04:52 PM
Was just playing with the iMac a bit. I agree about iTunes. I wasn't comparing Winamp to it. Just that I can play MP3 on Winamp in the background while I'm working on LW. I also wrote my own Mp3 player using Director.

I like iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto and iTunes and how they all work together now.

Was also playing with Project Builder and compiled and ran the OpenGL programs. Pretty cool but very dated. The examples worked but were not exactly cutting edge stuff.
I assume there are newer OpenGL samples to be had.
I have also compiled DirectX and OpenGL stuff on the PC using the DX SDK and they are more cutting edge examples. I also have the CG compiler from nVidia which is probably the most bleeding edge DX and OpenGL examples available. Also the link to realtime HDR is sweet but only works on DX9 compatible cards.

Still playing with the Mac. I need to hook it up to one of my 19" monitors.

Nakia What do you need all those different systems for?
It would seem counterproductive to have to keep up with updates on all those systems. You have a SUN, SGI, MAC and PC?
What else do you have hiding in there?

Cheers,
JS

js33
09-07-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by toby
"Apple just changes the name of things to make it look like they developed it."
"I tried using LW on the Mac but that 15" screen is too small" "I'm still waiting for the G5 dual benchmarks to come out to see if that would be viable option for Lightwave." "All I do with the iMac is play around on it right now"

What's positive or good news about that?

Obviously you need an example of a PC user that's not anti-Mac -
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10539

Again nothing untrue or negative just observations. I think you are just too touchy after reading too many Panini posts. :D


Originally posted by Happycat
Toby, if the Quadros (now at 4 I believe) were announced for the Macintosh my heart would be at ease. I hadn't realized, when I first started this thread, exactly how little choice I have when it comes to Macintosh graphics acceleration. I have since looked high and low and discovered that the total number of workstation graphics cards made for the Macintosh platform number zero. None. That, in my mind, is absolutely absurd. How can a platform whose longtime reputation has been that of a graphic artist's base of choice not warrant the development of a single card for accelerating 3D applications? This is an open market folks... normally any graphics manufacturer would recognize an empty playing field as an opportunity and step right in. If 3D labs or NVidia were to roll out a workstation class card tomorrow they would, overnight, occupy the entirety of a fairly substantial user base. Or maybe things have changed since back in the days when I had a Macintosh? Is the userbase simply not there anymore? As it stands in my internet quest for answers I've come across petitions to card manufacturers, polls, and threads upon threads pertaining to this single complaint and always there's the rumor that something suitable is right around the corner... but when you look at the dates you have to realize that it just wasn't true.


Toby He doesn't sound any different than what I've said.

Cheers,
JS

Nakia
09-07-2003, 05:28 PM
Me a two other guys are working on a Pre-Visual Company. one is Sun gear other is SGI geared.
I myself just dig the hardware.
Well I got the SGIs cause I was into Blender 3d and it ran great on the SGI, I bought the Powermac for Final Cut Pro and DVD stuff. I was doing miniDV stuff and convertinf Home movies to DVD. I started working on this under ground rapper DVD, one day he saw me and my co-working playing with Povray on a Sun 6500. He wanted 3D stuff for his DVD Demo. Thats how I got into Blender/BMRT and SGI gear. Then I realised I like 3D so Bought Lightwave. I order somemore SGI boxes. If you look hard you can get SGI boxes with Licensed Apps (You pay alittle more, just don't reinstall). I wanted a faster render box and a gamer so I bought a HP XW6000. Keeping the stuff up to date is not hard. Beside GNU stuff the SGI needs no Upgrading. The Apps it runs is old (LW 5.6, Photoshop 3.1, Illustrator 5.5, my friend runs Power Animator on his Indigo2).
Plus I'm a UNIX head. The gear i help out since one does something the other don't. They love each other.
The OpenGL demos are Old but the programming part from you is not. You can build things that are up to date.

toby
09-07-2003, 05:36 PM
The difference is that not every point he brings up makes Apple look bad, much less does he go out of his way and off topic to bring them up.

"Apple just changes the name of things to make it look like they developed it."

That's an OPINION, and a NEGATIVE one. Why do you make us bring up the same examples over and over?

turbo
09-07-2003, 10:27 PM
i just saw this poll and my first instinctive reaction was that its rediculous..
.. but in all honesty this is what happened..

I, like TripleG had chosen graphic design as my field. However, I had no computer experience at the time and a little money to spend and some courses to take. So I did some research.

I went to every computer store in my city and asked for their honest opinion on what was best for my chosen field. 100% of them said.."for graphics, choose mac". Including PC only stores.

I then chose a computer school that taught both platforms. I learned both systems simultaneously using PC's at school and my mac at home. I then got my first job as digital imaging specialis working on a mac system. I had to handle files from both PC and Mac clients for printing and more often than not, the pc files were from hell.

Bottom line ... there is nothing but mac. Well, there is Unix/Linux.. I watch/hear my Linux guru partner/spouse swear at winblows when he is forced to succumb to its inadequacies and I can only sympathize.. I love my macs.

I couldn't vote in this poll, tho. .. only tell this story.

A question tho.. does anyone know if the RTmac video card would be good for us LW users?

drclare
09-07-2003, 10:35 PM
Hi Turbo, do you mean will the RTmac help rendering speed with LW? If that is what you mean then i don't think it will help. I believe that the card only accelerate rendering for video apps like FCP and Premiere.

Ge4-ce
09-08-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by turbo
i just saw this poll and my first instinctive reaction was that its rediculous..



Do you mean this Poll is rediculous?

... ... ...

Maybe I do another poll on that?

Is this Poll rediculous:

1: yes
2: no
3: maybe
4: I do not understand the above

drclare
09-08-2003, 01:18 AM
I think maybe he meant that the poll was rediculous because it is obvious why we use macs. Because they are great.

drclare
09-08-2003, 01:19 AM
Its interesting that there are a bunch of "i don't use apple products" answers on this forum, considering that this is a mac forum. Maybe the PC guys can't read. (sorry, that was a cheap shot)

Ge4-ce
09-08-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by drclare
Its interesting that there are a bunch of "i don't use apple products" answers on this forum, considering that this is a mac forum. Maybe the PC guys can't read. (sorry, that was a cheap shot)



Yeah.. This whole setup was just a test to look how many PC-users use this forum.. We secretly logged them and now are gonna try to convert them..

:rolleyes:

Ge4-ce
09-08-2003, 01:34 AM
On the other hand.. Could be just Panini that has subscribed himself 10 times to this forum to vote "anti-mac" so he wants to give the impression we are a minority..

:D

drclare
09-08-2003, 07:53 AM
Hahaha, that's true

hrgiger
09-08-2003, 09:13 AM
Well, if Mac's marketshare keeps falling like it has been, mathmatically no one will be using them in another several years...

eblu
09-08-2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by js33

Was also playing with Project Builder and compiled and ran the OpenGL programs. Pretty cool but very dated. The examples worked but were not exactly cutting edge stuff.
I assume there are newer OpenGL samples to be had.
I have also compiled DirectX and OpenGL stuff on the PC using the DX SDK and they are more cutting edge examples. I also have the CG compiler from nVidia which is probably the most bleeding edge DX and OpenGL examples available. Also the link to realtime HDR is sweet but only works on DX9 compatible cards.


js33,
your absolutely right, those examples arent cutting edge. thats what is so special about them. They aren't even Ports. They are the original applications Directly from the SGI, recompiled on a mac. No actual changes were made to shoehorn them into the mac.

Its a proof of concept that Apple indeed has the most flexible, and Standards compliant OpenGL outside of SGI headquarters. Sure they made a single target so that you can compile them all in one pass, but the code hasn't changed in years, Apple did this on purpose, to show that they are committed to matching the standard, and not changing it in any way. And that means that almost ANY GLUT program, simply runs on a mac with a recompile. so if you want more examples, it might take a bit of finessing, but you can find Tons at OPENGL.org.

I'm not certain about Graphics card demos, NVidia and ATI Have never released one for the mac (to my knowledge), and frankly I'm not very impressed with the ones they have released for the PC anyway. The problem with them is that while the cards are certainly very capable, nobody takes advantage of all the features that the demos ummmm... demonstrate. So the demos are vaporware, runaway mee-too-ism without any representation in the real software market.

turbo
09-08-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by drclare
Hi Turbo, do you mean will the RTmac help rendering speed with LW? If that is what you mean then i don't think it will help. I believe that the card only accelerate rendering for video apps like FCP and Premiere.
I'm not sure what I mean.. I guess I was asking if the RTmac is just for realtime rendering or if it would in any way get us over the LW Modeler crash bug that ATI has so generously inflicted us with..

js33
09-08-2003, 12:02 PM
Hi eblu,

Oh OK. So there was a reason behind it. Didn't know that. I was looking at them and thinking man I haven't seen these in years.

As far as nVidia goes I'm talking about their CG language demos not the OGL demos that run stand alone which are usually very cool and are more a proof of concept like you said.

Go have a look at this page to see what I'm talking about.

nVidia CG shader samples (http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cg_shaders.html)

Cheers,
JS

turbo
09-08-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by drclare
I think maybe he meant that the poll was rediculous because it is obvious why we use macs. Because they are great.
heheh... first off... I AM WOMAN :D :cool: :p
.. and second yes, drclare, you are correct. Its rediculous because it is obvious. I could sing mac praises all day long. But you've heard them all before. The main words that first pop into my mind are 1) Elegance, 2) Ease, 3) Productivity... etc, etc.. :cool:

eblu
09-08-2003, 02:16 PM
js33,
cg looks neato, I found this quote (from last year unfortunately) which may give a good hint why there are no cg Apps for mac os X...

"Cg is currently available for Microsoft Windows and Linux. There are multiple development projects for other platforms underway at NVIDIA and elsewhere, but nothing announced at this point in time."

http://www.cgshaders.org/articles/interview_nvidia-jul2002.php

so at least a year ago, there wasn't anything available for mac os x.

from what I remember there is a pretty hefty amount of work to get these extensions up and running under os x... the card drivers don't yet support it (honestly haven't checked since jag was released), OpenGL is the only choice, NVidia is having trouble getting cg to work with OpenGl, and there is No "cg compiler" for os X. (all off the top of my head, with tentative understanding of cg)

I wish i had found a more recent quote, but it looks very quiet in the cg camp for the last few months, and they don't appear to even acknowledge that there is another platform besides Windows, except in offhand ways.

Its a shame, bc I think Apple was right on top of getting the necessary OpenGL stuff worked out. Guess it helps if you can help NVidia design the language huh?

does PC Lightwave use direct X or OpenGL?

Nakia
09-08-2003, 02:44 PM
I say ATI get their act together with some Mac support.
Rendermonkey seems Cool.
Since it works with Renderman.
http://mirror.ati.com/developer/sdk/radeonSDK/html/Tools/RenderMonkey.html
heeres another older post
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1155752,00.asp

js33
09-08-2003, 02:47 PM
I believe most of the CG language works with both OpenGL and DirectX. Most of the examples in the CG browser are OpenGL and DirectX except for a few that are DirectX 9 only. I can't run those as I don't have a DX9 compatible card yet.

LW for PC uses OpenGL.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
09-08-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by turbo
heheh... first off... I AM WOMANI hear your roar! ;)

Originally posted by turbo
A question tho.. does anyone know if the RTmac video card would be good for us LW users? The RTmac card is a video card, for digitizing video and video effects. This kind of card won't work with Lightwave, as it won't improve your OpenGL performance like graphics cards from ATI or nVidea.

However, if you're doing video editing or compositing (such as Final Cut Pro or After Effects) the RTmac card would be very useful, to enable real time video playback and effects.

The Mac is the supreme platform for video editing. So much so that the Windows competitors are having a really tough time competing against Final Cut Pro.

turbo
09-08-2003, 05:03 PM
oki.. ty for info :cool:

Jimzip
09-09-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by: hrgiger
Well, if Mac's marketshare keeps falling like it has been, mathmatically no one will be using them in another several years...

Not true. In fact, it's comforting to know that the Apple Mac's share is going up:

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2002/07/03/marketshare/

& here:
http://daringfireball.net/2003/07/market_share.html

I'm sure, if you read the second link, that the point made there is right, people have been saying that 'Apple is going under' for years, and it's just slowly been getting stronger and stronger, I have faith in them, and I'm not about to inverse-switch anytime soon. Not for 1 million "Longhorn"'s. ;)

Jimzip :D

Jimzip
09-09-2003, 02:37 AM
Oh, sorry for double posting, but for all those who have no idea what "Longhorn" is, take a look.

http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp

Oh, and doing a Google search for 'Longhorn' brings up a whole list of promising links! :D Gee it looks good!
:p
(WARNING WARNING, SARCASM OVERLOAD!)

"Longhorn"! What sort of name is that for an Operating System.. Sounds like one of those 80's porno flicks.
Thurrott says: "Microsoft has been working to move beyond the dated desktop metaphor still used by Mac OS X and Linux"

. . .

Don't get me started..


>Sigh< Well I guess it is Microsoft..

(Oh, and one really got me annoyed, an article I found was complaining that PC's aren't doing 'so well' at the moment, and that a 'revolution' was needed to get people to buy more PC's.
What?!)

Jimzip :D

Red_Oddity
09-09-2003, 04:11 AM
And what name is a G4 or G5...the only time those computers reach that speed is when you fling them out the window of a NASA shuttle...:p

(WARNING WARNING, SARCASM DETECTED! MAJOR SARCASM DETECTED!)

Please, people...this is such a flamebait poll...

I mis the choise where it sais ' I use a Mac because i have to...but i wouldn't think twice if my boss gave me a sledge hammer and said "There you go boy, you're allowed to end your torment now"...ahwell'

Maybe i'm just crossed because i seem to be the only one on these forums for who the Mac doesn't work (i made a fulltime job of watching spinning beachballs) and the darn PC does...Life's cruel, i know...

*back to work*...

*edit*...arggg...while modeling my $4000 HP 8000 just hung big time....i guess LW doesn't like Quadro 980 cards....me and my big mouth...i jinxed both platforms now:D

hrgiger
09-09-2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Jimzip
Not true. In fact, it's comforting to know that the Apple Mac's share is going up:

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2002/07/03/marketshare/

& here:
http://daringfireball.net/2003/07/market_share.html

I'm sure, if you read the second link, that the point made there is right, people have been saying that 'Apple is going under' for years, and it's just slowly been getting stronger and stronger, I have faith in them, and I'm not about to inverse-switch anytime soon. Not for 1 million "Longhorn"'s. ;)

Jimzip :D

Hmm, that second article is nothing but biased. Let me clue you in. Anytime the author refers to any other group of people as "small-weinered" (which isn't a word by the way), you're dealing with a very biased person.

As soon as I can get the same amount of software for a mac that I can for a pc, I might consider buying one. How many songs I can put in a personal mp3 player or the fact I can choose which pretty color my computer comes in doesn't mean much to me.

Ade
09-09-2003, 08:40 AM
mac = no dLL drivers
mac= no panini

eblu
09-09-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
As soon as I can get the same amount of software for a mac that I can for a pc, I might consider buying one.

i keep my eye on pc software. I pay attention to the vast quantities of PC software. I continually compare PC software to mac software. result: Apple may be an arrogant company, but they have good reason. the Bulk of pc software is CRAP. Its true that if you purchased every piece of software for the pc and installed it, on paper you'd be able to do more than any mac known to man. Go ahead and do it, watch what happens, you'll have a paper weight that does nothing, and real fast too.

number of titles does not equal the number of titles worth buying. the reason apple is eating the video industry, with one package btw, is bc they saw a giant hole in the video industry, and a potential demand for quality at a low price point. Avid's pissed? Adobe? well, they failed to act on consumer demand. And they had every opportunity. heck, didnt adobe once own FCP? Who remembers the original DVD authoring systems? I do, and I don't miss them at all. Its not like Apple did anything new there, except completely re-work the hardware end of things so that its about $10,000 cheaper to author a dvd. no big deal there right? Sure it' be nice to see someone else with a comparable dvd authoring package on the mac, or a comparable video editing system... at that price point, but frankly nobody wants to compete with apple, not even PC software makers. compare Microsoft to apple in the "iapp" category, you'll see MS struggling to keep up. So you say theres no choice in software titles? ok, I'd agree. But I say that the Windows world is suffering from an overabundance of seriously poor software titles, and that the Quality PC titles were Almost all, MAC first.

heh,
oops I got a little over-stimulated,
-eblu

Ade
09-09-2003, 09:31 AM
macs just work...

Besides you are greeted with a smiley face when u login and macs are far ahead of their time with user friendlyness and technologies...


Windows is a sign of the capitilistic approach, copy em all at a cheaper price and make money on fixes...even if it pales in quality.

Nakia
09-09-2003, 09:39 AM
or the fact I can choose which pretty color my computer comes in doesn't mean much to me.
Apple Don't sell Pretty color computers no more. AlienWare do though.

hrgiger
09-09-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Nakia
Apple Don't sell Pretty color computers no more. AlienWare do though.

Yeah, well they started that stupid Yuppie trend. Oooh, a designer computer...


Eblu-

That's your opinion. Yes, there is a lot of crap. But there's a lot of good stuff out there too that isn't available for Macs.
Speaking of which, plug-ins is one of those things. How many times do you see the disclaimer "Not yet available for Macintosh"?

hrgiger
09-09-2003, 11:51 AM
By the way, I'm only stating the reason I don't use a Mac. I'm not knocking any of you so don't take it as a platform attack.

Nakia
09-09-2003, 12:05 PM
By the way, I'm only stating the reason I don't use a Mac. I'm not knocking any of you so don't take it as a platform attack.
I know. I consider you one of my most respected Posters here.
I use both platforms along with others so I don't bash any myself.

eblu
09-09-2003, 03:45 PM
i hear ya hr, don't take me personally,
It really bothers me, more so than the MHZ thing, when someone states without any qualifications (not saying you're unqualified, just the statement), that macs have less software.
yeah its true, its also irrelevant.

I disagree with you about there being alot of "good stuff out there". I am terribly critical about software, so this statement is just not descriptive enough for my tastes. And before i incur anyones wrath, this is my opinion, i do not expect anyone to share it. I think that there are many good functions, in software in general, being served by shoddy software, poor design, and terrible maintenance. I personally believe that there are very few well designed, well executed, and well maintained applications at all, and that all of them, exist solely on the mac platform. These are not the applications you use everyday, these are not applications that You "learned to love", these applications may not even help you be productive. Applications that are good:
1. require zero instruction
2. have only 1 function
3. are only as complicated as needed to perform the 1 function
4. follows to the letter, the metaphor, UI guidelines as set by the encapsulating system, whether it be Windows, or mac os X.
5. are bug/issue free with a history of emphasis on bug fixes, before the addition of features.

it is subjective, but I have not seen one application that runs under windows that meets all of these requirements, and while there are a few that might make it on the mac side of things, there is only one application I am sure meets these requirements: Fontographer from macromedia. It nails all of the requirements so well, that it simply works, even though development stopped Before the Mac os X transition. The last revision was in may of 1996, and It works flawlessly in Classic! Take that lazy developers. if you follow the rules, your stuff transitions fine! Its still in version 4 but it is so solid that it is the only application I use in Classic anymore. as an aside, there is a windows version, it apparently is compromised by a bug IN WINDOWS, one which incorrectly identifies Fontographer as a 16 bit application.

ok I've addressed the "good software opinion" thing, now onto the rest of the assertion. in my opinion, The generic nature of the PC completely undermines the software. some very poor legacy decisions, and limited support for a multitude of hardware, coupled with software that cannot be tested in concert with the vast array of other poorly designed software creates a city of babel effect. Applications don't work, or dont work together. each app fights for the same resources, some require specific and overlapping hardware. This is all due to the fact that the OS itself doesn't conform to its own UI standards. A different window for each preference for each DLL, great idea! menus at the top and the bottom? Where exactly do applications go? lets tie the instant messenger into the os, why? why not? "can't find that Driver? lets download it automatically- crash".
so why is this a problem? its the hidden cost of owning a pc, you have to buy poor quality software and do your own trouble shooting to get it to work.

I refuse to believe that it is necessary to put up with this crap. Typically there are far fewer problems in a mac, especially if your hardware is stock, an impossible feat for any pc, and your software was written by developers who take the time to follow the rules.

which is why I use a mac. Apple gives you a head start on productivity. developers get Clear Guidelines about what to do and not to do, these things greatly improve the design process. Yeah, many of the most productive apps break the rules, but at least there are rules, and I do benefit from them.


plugins? they aren't applications.
I dont own any, and dont want any. True many of them are not available for mac os x, and? Are they worth buying? I'm sure some of them are, but I'm not one of those people who is clamoring over myself for a special plugin to be ported to the mac, or for that matter even paying attention to whats available. so I can't even weigh in on plugins.

hey its only software,
-eblu

js33
09-09-2003, 04:37 PM
Eblu,

I hear what your saying but I think your ideas about PCs and Windows are very dated. Most of what you describe is applicable to Win95/98 but not to W2k/XP. Have you ever used a W2k or XP system? When I bought my lastest PC with XP it came ready to use right out the box just like a Mac. I changed out the video card that it came with, a GF4MX, and put in a GF4 Ti and put the MX in my wifes computer. No problem. I use this PC day in day out 12-16 hours a day and it never crashes. I run Lightwave, AE, Director, Flash, GoLive, CuBase, DFX, Photoshop, VegasVideo, SoundForge, Burn CDs and DVDs, etc... and it all works fine.

I hear what your saying about software but for most cross platform software they are mostly identical in look and operation on both platforms.

Cheers,
JS

Ge4-ce
09-09-2003, 05:33 PM
Do you run internet on the same machine?

just a question.. nothing personal..

probably yes, but most places at schools where I come.. the "pc's to do work on" like the ones running lightwave... are forbidden to be connected to the internet..

Why?? you can guess that.. why is it sooooo harmfull to let students surf the internet on a PC network? Oh, .. wait.. maybe it has got something to do with the computerlab made for surfing the internet where 25 pc's are used only for surfing.. and where 4 computers actually work.. and where 1 admin has to constantly re-install windows because the students have messed up the computer again..

On the other hand, in the Mac-room, where the graphical students work.. All the Mac's work!! Oh, all except one.. that one was jammed by a PC-user that did not get the CD out of the Mac.



:rolleyes:

Jimzip
09-09-2003, 10:46 PM
Red_Oddity, jinxed platform! lol. This thread is jinxed!

I'm really not trying to sound angry either(<-Not directed at Oddity, just in general).
I just don't get the way PC users hate Macs. There's nothing to hate, it's not like they are threatening PC's in any way. (Oh my a whole 6% market share! Run for the hills!!).
Macs are just nice machines with a great OS. PC's (and I'm using one as I speak which has crashed once since I arrived at uni 2 hours ago..:rolleyes") just don't appeal to me at all. My friends all use PC's, and everyone in my year at uni uses PC's. I am the only one out of all of them that owns a Mac. So I am very familiar with both OS's. Two of my friends also have XP, so I know what XP is like. Agreed, it's an improvement over it's predecessors (what OS isn't? (And no replying to the last comment!!)), but it's still not what I'd go for.

Like I say a lot, PC users pass off Macs before they even look at them. I'm sure there'd be a lot more Mac users if PC people found out what it is that we love so much about our machines.
And before anyone goes saying that they tried using a Mac in '97 and never wanted to use one again, just have a look at them now. I'm sure you'll be amazed to see they've changed.

Jimzip :D

hrgiger
09-10-2003, 01:16 AM
You talk about PC's like they are practically unusable. I haven't found this to be true by any stretch of the imagination. My workflow isn't so interrupted by constant needs to load a new .dll or recover from a crash. My last system was pretty much trouble free for two years until I bought my current system. Generally, my machine automatically downloads any updates it needs on its own and other then regularly degragging my drive, there's not much upkeep to it. Oh, and I like to open up the case every few months and blow the dust off the chipboards.

I don't use a ton of software but I do have a fair number of apps which I use. I've never had a conflict with anything I've installed. Generally, most of the problems I've had with a pc were hardware drivers and those have been easily fixed. Most often problems with the video drivers.




Like I say a lot, PC users pass off Macs before they even look at them. I'm sure there'd be a lot more Mac users if PC people found out what it is that we love so much about our machines.

Of course, you could also say that there would be a lot more pc users If Mac people just found out what we love about our machines.
;)

js33
09-10-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
Do you run internet on the same machine?

just a question.. nothing personal..

probably yes, but most places at schools where I come.. the "pc's to do work on" like the ones running lightwave... are forbidden to be connected to the internet..

Why?? you can guess that.. why is it sooooo harmfull to let students surf the internet on a PC network? Oh, .. wait.. maybe it has got something to do with the computerlab made for surfing the internet where 25 pc's are used only for surfing.. and where 4 computers actually work.. and where 1 admin has to constantly re-install windows because the students have messed up the computer again..

On the other hand, in the Mac-room, where the graphical students work.. All the Mac's work!! Oh, all except one.. that one was jammed by a PC-user that did not get the CD out of the Mac.



:rolleyes:


Yes I run the Internet on the same machine. I'm posting here aren't I. :p I have a Cable modem. I run NAV and ZoneAlarm firewall. Never had a virus or crash. Never had any problem related to the net. Sure any computer could get messed up if people start deleting system files or similiar silliness. The big problem to me is all Mac users still have this superiority attitude and that graphics can only be done on Macs. This simply is not true. If it ever was maybe back in 1985-1991 the time has long past. If you think PCs can't be used for graphics production just look at any gallery. CGtalk, Newtek, Ralp, etc... and you will see the same market share numbers of PC usage to Mac. About 95% PC to 5% Mac. If you love your machines thats fine but it seems like the only way a Mac lover can show his love for the Mac is by spewing hatred toward the PC which is very silly and childish.
Look at the taglines of most Mac users in here and they all say something derogatory toward the PC or Windows. Go to a primarily PC based forum like the Community and except for a few Mac users there look at how many PC users have taglines saying anything derogatory toward the Mac? By the way I also own an iMac and have no tag line. :D

Cheers,
JS

Jimzip
09-10-2003, 02:58 AM
Yeah, you're right JS.
I don't think slagging others off is the right way to go about anything unless there's a darn good reason, which usually there isn't..

Mac users in general are very defensive. We like to protect our machines! :mad: :D
Sigh.

Jimzip :D

js33
09-10-2003, 04:02 AM
Can't we all just get along. :( :D
Yeah I have noticed Mac users are a touchy lot and some PC users are as well. But we are all in the Lightwave brotherhood. Wave on brother. :p

Cheers,
JS

Red_Oddity
09-10-2003, 04:04 AM
I think you just have to be lucky with the machines you get from your supplier...

I have nothing but trouble with my Mac...the guy i work with has the exact same one (except he has a spiffy cinema display instead of the CRT i have...damn him...lucky bugger...)
My PCs work for me...can't be helped sorry...

However...an animator/director i know (Harrie Geelen, some dutch people might know him for his Loeki de Leeuw from the commercial breaks, or his Oli B. Bommel feature animation...so he's no small fry) has nothing but trouble with his new PCs (and he stepped away from the Mac...now even I wish the poor man hadn't)...
The PCs he works with validate every arguement every Mac zealot in here has every produced...these are the PCs from hell...

So you see, it goes both ways...you just have to be lucky you don't get the rotten computer that every vendor seems to have on stock along with the rest...

Jimzip
09-10-2003, 04:11 AM
You're right again Oddity.
I guess that rings true for a lot of instances. Macs come pre-made though, and there are set limited configurations, that, although seem to work flawlessly, don't offer the customisation that PC's often have either.

hrgiger.
I use a PC four days a week. If I used XP, I could probably say what I like about it, but at current, I don't like anything about the computers I use except for Truck Dismount. :D :D :D

Jimzip :D

JS. I said nearly the exact same thing in another post..
Let's all Lightwave!
P.S, Lightwave 8.0!!!!

js33
09-10-2003, 04:25 AM
:D

Yeah where is LW 8 by the way. I think if we all had it these forums would empty out pretty quick. Then probably fill up again with complaints. :( Such is the life of a software maker.

Cheers,
JS

Jimzip
09-10-2003, 05:37 AM
lol!
So true! So true!

Though I'm still waiting for NT to give us Mac guys 'n gals an offer.. I'd have ordered the upgrade right away if there was a good deal for us.. :(

Jimzip :D

eblu
09-10-2003, 07:47 AM
js33, HRGiger,
guys, most of my "dated" references, come from a co-worker and a friend, the machines that I am referencing are not just recent, they are new this year, with the latest Windows Whatever. both of my friends fancy themselves computer experts, and they obviously know more than I. They also assemble PCs and perhaps this is why you don't experience the problems they face. They are very happy that you can assemble a PC from components for under $1000, but there are ALWAYS problems, and some of the problems cannot be overcome.

Its funny, they swear by their PC. They swear at it, behind it, and over it as well. When I listen to the stories of staying up late, doing Multiple windows re-installs just to get a driver working (not installed... just to get it to recognize its hardware), or heh... trying to change the drive letter (there really is a good reason to do this and it has to do with screamernet), I actually keep my mouth shut. Nothing i can say will make them feel any better, they just won't consider using a mac.
and its really funny because one of them supports PCs (stock dells btw) and Macs at work, and he tells me constantly that macs are better. Better at everything (his company makes DVDs), and he still thinks its better to be able to buy components and assemble a nightmare. I'll take good design thanks. And if you are buying a whole machine from a clone maker because the experience is better than assembling one yourself, then maybe you should take a closer look at macs, you apparently value something that Apple has and nobody else does... the whole widget.

I do realize that there are well designed PCs out there, and that many of them have no difficulty at all, doing the things we do every day. But my examples are also representative of current PC problems, with Supported hardware, and the latest Windows.

anyway,
i'm taking a break from this thread now.
peace
-eblu

js33
09-10-2003, 07:58 AM
Eblu,

With all due respect it sounds like your friends aren't that knowlegeable to have those kind of problems. I've built 3 PCs all of which run fine and bought one PC from a company and one iMac and they all run fine. There is no need to change your drive letter to use screamernet. You just map it as a network drive and you can change the drive letter there. The main thing to watch out for are crappy motherboards. If you get a brand name such as Iwill, Abit, Asus, SuperMicro, etc...that will eliminate 99% of any problems. If you get some off brand piece of crap you are asking for trouble. So you do have to be somewhat knowledgeable about good hardware verses crappy hardware.

Cheers,
JS

Ge4-ce
09-10-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by js33
Can't we all just get along. :( :D
Yeah I have noticed Mac users are a touchy lot and some PC users are as well. But we are all in the Lightwave brotherhood. Wave on brother. :p

Cheers,
JS


You know.. you know how my hate (relatively hate because I DO work with PC's, but would never buy one) for Windows and PC users has grown??

Because everytime I ever ever said that I use a Mac,.. PC users said:

:rolleyes: Oh,... a Mac...., Arn't they bankrupt yet? and there is no software available for Mac, and Mac is ONLY for creative design, Mac is way more expensive, who buys a computer for it's ease of use? you cannot "play" with the configuration.. it's for dummy's, nobody uses these anymore,... They are slow like hell, they stole the interface design from Windows and most of all, who would buy a computer with the name of a piece of fruit????

now,... don't you think that when you hear this 10 times a day that you automatically defend yourself? And that after 10 years hearing the same old stories, you won't get mad and angry about that stuff?

If every PC user would tell me: Both MAC and PC are cool, but just different! then there would be no "Platform wars"

Especially when everytime they come to you for some kind of question or demo from photoshop and see my Mac OS X in action.. They drewl in my neck! and they admid that some things are way more cool on a Mac!! mostly the iApps, and the interface stuff! the ease of use and easy and fast workflow are making them jealous like hell...

but when you tell them.. you can buy one for less than 1000 $ then see above.. no way.. are you nuts? a mac? me??? never..

Nakia
09-10-2003, 12:36 PM
I use both Mac and PC (I even posted a Pic of them getting along just well together on this thread.)
I say they are both Cool. But I am a Mac user.
Only thing I just don't get is why do PC users storm in are quick to point out the negative side of macs? Rarely do they have anything negative to say, except oh, a,b,c app is not available. This statement goes both ways, there are Good Apps that are on Mac and not on PC. So how can you knock it on that if both don't run the same apps? PC users will go through the Mhz thing but MAcs user know that they are slower at Mhz so why go this route? This is obvious dual 1.2GHz G4 vs a Dual 3.GHZ PIV.
Plus how many PC user are using top of the Line PCs?
If we compare them lets stick with one App, i.e. Lightwave. Cause I say as an all around Box Mac are the King!! or Queen depending on what you call your Mac. And I use Both PC and Mac and I have a PC thats a lot faster than my Mac, 2.4Ghz XEON vs 933Mhz G4 but work flow on Mac is way better.

Karl Hansson
09-10-2003, 12:41 PM
" If you love your machines thats fine but it seems like the only way a Mac lover can show his love for the Mac is by spewing hatred toward the PC which is very silly and childish "

Well thats throwing all macusers over the same edge dont you think. I am a macuser and has been for the last 10 years. I have nothing against PC's as a matter of fact I am about to buy a new system and I cant make up my mind whether to go PC or Mac. Both have their pros and cons.

I like the speed and flexibility of the PC but I also like the simplicity and stability of the mac. I'm not saying that PCs are not stable enough. I just really really like the concept of the mac.

There are alot of rumors and inaccuraties around that serves to bash macs. Few of the worst critics have enough experience of the mac to make a fair judgment. It is just alot of hearsay and rumors that accumulates when confronted with offensive macusers (even though I am a macuser I dont support PC bashing, I just have better things to do). However I can understand why some macuser become so offensive because of always having to defend their choise of computer. I have personally been insulted on a couple of occations when some certain people found out that I was using mac. Usually I dont say that I use mac just to avoid the usual comments. And that ain't right either.