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View Full Version : So did Rod S. make the Eat3D video?



wacom
02-01-2010, 11:59 AM
http://eat3d.com/classical-sculpting

?

Too bad...so close to buying it...good material...but the guy...ugh...

Anyone know for sure?

biliousfrog
02-01-2010, 12:09 PM
dunno, best to ask them.

BTW the ZBrush ones are great, I really enjoyed the instructor and felt that I learned a lot of things that I'd missed from trying to teach myself.

wacom
02-01-2010, 12:18 PM
Well I'm specifically wanting to learn more anatomy in this format. Instead of trying to learn it from books and having to sit in on figure drawing classes (again). I'm wanting to know more of what's going on under the hood than just the surface so that when I go to do creatures or the like I can transfer the knowledge more to a more constructive drawing approach.

I'll check out some of the zbrush ones though and see if there is anything of similar caliber with such explanations....

Maybe I should just strap a web cam to my roof though and aim it at my neighbors? (just couldn't resist):ohmy:

hrgiger
02-01-2010, 01:05 PM
Well Rod used Mudbox and he was from Ireland right? So I'm pretty sure it's him.

And only Rod would insult Leonardo Davinci.

By the way Wacom, you might want to check out Zbrush Digital Sculpting Human Anatomy. It's quite excellent. Here's the link to it on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/ZBrush-Digital-Sculpting-Human-Anatomy/dp/0470450266/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265055017&sr=8-1

OnlineRender
02-01-2010, 01:23 PM
/\ yes it's his material ! and I think the publisher / video peps post on here aswell !

wacom
02-01-2010, 02:05 PM
Well Rod used Mudbox and he was from Ireland right? So I'm pretty sure it's him.

And only Rod would insult Leonardo Davinci.

By the way Wacom, you might want to check out Zbrush Digital Sculpting Human Anatomy. It's quite excellent. Here's the link to it on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/ZBrush-Digital-Sculpting-Human-Anatomy/dp/0470450266/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265055017&sr=8-1

What are the videos like on the included disc? While the mega hero is...a hero...the info looks solid.

Thanks for the tip off!

*Pete*
02-01-2010, 02:22 PM
[QUOTE=wacom;980883]Well I'm specifically wanting to learn more anatomy in this format. Instead of trying to learn it from books and having to sit in on figure drawing classes (again). I'm wanting to know more of what's going on under the hood than just the surface so that when I go to do creatures or the like I can transfer the knowledge more to a more constructive drawing approach.
/QUOTE]

Maybe getting to a gym is a good idea?
You will see muscle behavior when under stress, the changes in form based on posture of body or parts of body.

On a trained body you would see the chest muscles split in 3 parts, but only visible in certain postures.

If you would train too, you might physically feel muscles that arent visible, like the inner abs or some musculature in the back.

Its really fashinating to see the muscles on the shoulders change shape and size by simply rotating your hand or arm...i never seen anyone replicate it in cgi in a realistic way,

geothefaust
02-01-2010, 03:01 PM
While I totally dig the idea of hitting the gym, bring a pad and pencil with you to then stare at the folks working out and drawing them, is a good way to get a bashing from most of the folks that frequent those kind of places (also a reason I quit going to gyms, people there are too damned aggro) and/or kicked out. Not to mention the costs associated with going to a gym, especially when it's just for artistic reference. Maybe if you were a big tag on your chest and back that said something like "ANATOMY ARTIST", so the people working out wont be so disturbed or tempted to woop on you, lol.

Just my two cents. ;)


When you're trying to save a buck, I think a video, some images or a book are the best way to go. IMHO.


Anyway, that said, I'm looking to further my study of anatomy as well and I was eyeballin' that DVD. Got plenty of books now, also been watching lots of videos on youtube of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Columbu and a few other body builders from the 1970-80s, also a few modern bodybuilders. Though they do tend to be way over the top with the musculature, it gives a good general idea of what is going on under the hood.

Liber777
02-01-2010, 03:19 PM
... hitting the gym...to then stare at the folks working out and drawing them, is a good way to get a bashing...

S'pose one could always rent a space across the street and install a hidden camera... j/k (:

wacom
02-01-2010, 04:45 PM
[QUOTE=wacom;980883]Well I'm specifically wanting to learn more anatomy in this format. Instead of trying to learn it from books and having to sit in on figure drawing classes (again). I'm wanting to know more of what's going on under the hood than just the surface so that when I go to do creatures or the like I can transfer the knowledge more to a more constructive drawing approach.
/QUOTE]

Maybe getting to a gym is a good idea?
You will see muscle behavior when under stress, the changes in form based on posture of body or parts of body.

On a trained body you would see the chest muscles split in 3 parts, but only visible in certain postures.

If you would train too, you might physically feel muscles that arent visible, like the inner abs or some musculature in the back.

Its really fashinating to see the muscles on the shoulders change shape and size by simply rotating your hand or arm...i never seen anyone replicate it in cgi in a realistic way,

I used to work out quite a bit (that was a LONG time ago) and yes it's true that you can learn a lot about how muscles and skin slide around and the basic major groups. It's also a nice way to get exercise with built in goals and visible results!

However, I'm kind of not so much as wanting to make CG animations of characters as more getting a better handle on the basics for 2D work (concept and final illustrations). Not that the info doesn't carry over, but I'm wanting to go deeper into the tissue/bone info than can be seen on the surface (like where do the muscles connect once they are sub-ducted under one another, what shape are they, how long are the tendons etc.

This will also help me if I make up some creatures- to help imagine how their physiology might work from a skeletal and muscle level on up.

I'm also interested in knowing the muscles of the face better to help form expressions etc. and that's really hard to do looking at the surface of things (at least for me). I have a really good book on it, but would like a more extensive and hands on experience creating the "parts" so as to create a 3D map in my head of where things go etc.

Most of my illustration work also has characters and creatures in clothing, so while a good understanding of how everything works while moving will be helpful, again the focus is mainly on the hands, neck and face.

Matt
02-01-2010, 05:14 PM
Well, that's his voice, so I guess the answer is yes.

So, listening to the video sample, apparently ...

"the best way to work out the proportions of the character you want to make, is by finding some reference of a person that is closest to what you have in mind"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I was half expecting the next line to be ....

"I recommend hiding a video camera in your roof tiles"

jameswillmott
02-01-2010, 05:49 PM
This thread's going to get closed like the other one I think...

Gossiping about people (regardless of what they may or may not have done) isn't nice...

hrgiger
02-01-2010, 05:50 PM
Nevermind.

hrgiger
02-01-2010, 05:53 PM
What are the videos like on the included disc? While the mega hero is...a hero...the info looks solid.

Thanks for the tip off!

I haven't got a chance to look at the disc yet, I just got it in the mail the other day. It is a hero character but he goes into good detail about anatomy. Don't know if you use zbrush or not but he uses standard zspheres as well as a base mesh built in Maya to sculpt on. Even though he uses zbrush 3.5 he doesn't cover zsketching.

Oh, and by the way, I recommend if you haven't gotten on, one of these: http://anatomicalfigures.com/ I got Male version 1 for Christmas and absolutley love it. You can look at anatomy books all day but having a 3D reference you can turn beats it all to hell.

SplineGod
02-01-2010, 06:08 PM
Leigh Bamforth has some very godo examples of sculpting an anatomically correct head with muscle layers using 3d coats voxels. It should be applicable to other apps.
http://www.vimeo.com/user2003041/videos/page:2/sort:newest

OnlineRender
02-02-2010, 12:47 AM
I've seen Leigh work , I would recommend his videos .....

biliousfrog
02-02-2010, 02:04 AM
I got this book when I was working on a see-through bodybuilder: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0736041850/ref=sib_rdr_dp

You can browse through some of the pages on the Amazon site, it has some very detailed illustrations and explainations on which muscles are used during which exercises. The cover image doesn't do it justice, the ones inside are very good.

I've also got Dynamic Anatomy and Dynamic Hands by Burne Hogarth:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url?_encoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books-uk&field-author=Burne%20Hogarth

They're very nice too, I really like his style. I hope to get some more of his books soon.

phil lawson
02-02-2010, 02:37 AM
I highly recommend the ZBrush Digital Sculpting Human Anatomy by Scott Spencer. Not only does it cover each area, the book contains a DVD full of videos and ZBrush alpha/tools.

This link will allow you to view a sample chapter, but it is available on Amazon as well.

http://www.sybex.com/WileyCDA/SybexTitle/productCd-0470450266.html

*Pete*
02-02-2010, 03:07 AM
also been watching lots of videos on youtube of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Franco Columbu and a few other body builders from the 1970-80s, also a few modern bodybuilders. Though they do tend to be way over the top with the musculature, it gives a good general idea of what is going on under the hood.


i wouldnt look at any of them for referance muscles, and this for two (contradicting) reasons.

1: the use of anabolic drugs grow also mucles that usually would not grow into such proportions...the "bulls neck" for example, is something that people usually do not get even with perfect training over years and years.
the same goes for other muscles as the wrists and calfs (?), which tend to get mucles that are normally impossible.

2: they are often very professional in what they do, and know the importance of balance...they will focus a lot on the back muscles just to get the correct natural posture, as opposed to normal people at the gym (who train almost only chest) and have an uglier, but more natural, forward leaning posture.


if you would find yourself a gym much like the one where i am...where you have one swartzenegger per 100 people, you would find a more positive and friendly atmosphere....and, most important, normal people.

our bodyshape is a result of the life we live and the demands we have for it in our daily life...a person sitting by a computer (thats us, basically) will have a huncing posture, much like a boxer will have...and a person who works at a construction site will have a straight, almost backwardsleaning posture, much like a wrestler has.

if you would go to a "friendly" gym and ask the personal trainers, who often are certified physiotherapeutists (aarghh..words), you would propably get a massive amount of information that you could use.


if for example, you character is a nobleman who loves rididing horses...you might give him stronger, trained legs (for riding is demanding for legs) and relative soft and untrained upperbody, since a nobleman will propably not work his upperbody the same as a peasant would.

physioth...those, people..make a living on correcting postures and repairing physical unbalances, so...a gym + personal trainer = wealth of information.

geothefaust
02-02-2010, 03:25 AM
Excellent advice Pete. :)

probiner
02-02-2010, 04:23 AM
ooohhhh the perks of having Human Motricity teacher at home...

Strength Training Anatomy: Your Illustrated Guide to Muscles at Work. By Frederic Delavier (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Strength-Training-Anatomy/Frederic-Delavier/e/9780736041850)

Yes... its full of drawings of overworked men and women, but the drawings are great, tagged and with the active muscles signed.
Maybe mor suitable for ppl wanting to make bigs guys and animate them, than classical scupltures... but... well... my 2 cents :P

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1208/muscleandmovementguide0tg.jpg

hrgiger
02-02-2010, 06:30 AM
The real problem I see with using bodybuilder reference (I used to do it when I first started studying anatomy) is a matter of proportion. The study of human anatomy is not only about muscular and skeletal knowledge, but also on the proportion and form(or silhouette) of the body. Bodybuilders tend to have very exaggerated silhouettes and proportions. Using them as reference simply because you can see most major muscle groups represented can pigeon hole you into a bad sense of proportion when you are interested in modeling a range of character types. Use bodybuilder reference when you are creating that type of character (ie. superhero, hulking beast) but don't use it to learn human anatomy. Just my .02.

I would recommend Andrew Loomis on drawing the human figure. You can download his books on pdf free here:
http://www.placidchaos.com/AM/index.php/2006/02/21/andrew_loomis Right click to save. I would at least get 'Figure Drawing for All it's Worth' and 'Drawing the Head and Hands'.

I am also currently going through The Structure of Man, drawing the human figure from your mind by Riven Phoenix. http://alienthink.com/ Now the reviews of this one have been mixed, some say they are boring to listen to and while he's not the most exciting narrator, I find the information to be exellent. He uses DaVinci like techniques to come up with formulas to drawing proportions to the human body. I bought them probably a year ago and have tried watching them a few times and then they sat on the shelf for months. But I recently got them out and found that if I do two or three of the lessons I day, I stay interested and am really glad I have picked it up. It's actually quite good, but I recommend taking it in moderation.

I know Wacom you said you weren't interested in drawing classes, but I think of these less as improving my drawing as improving my feel of proportion and form of the body and this will come through in your modeling.

Matt
02-02-2010, 06:30 AM
This thread's going to get closed like the other one I think...

Gossiping about people (regardless of what they may or may not have done) isn't nice...

You're right James. I just couldn't help it when I heard that part!

Anyway, back to muscles ... check out my guns!

:D

OnlineRender
02-02-2010, 06:35 AM
somebody once told me , if you don't know what's under the bonnet , you will never know how it works (",) ,I'm not like some animators than can name all 200+ bones and what every muscle is called ..... but then again , you do get Zbrush artist ,that have not a clue but create some of the most amazing images I've seen ............

*Pete*
02-02-2010, 06:47 AM
when im done with my current (paid) project, i plan to modell a human...myself, actually.
(yes, im human...dont get fooled by the iron jaw).

I plan to use series of photos to model from...anyone with experience with this?

Should i model straight into pose, or into a t-pose and then shape it into a pose?

biliousfrog
02-02-2010, 06:53 AM
when im done with my current (paid) project, i plan to modell a human...myself, actually.
(yes, im human...dont get fooled by the iron jaw).

I plan to use series of photos to model from...anyone with experience with this?

Should i model straight into pose, or into a t-pose and then shape it into a pose?

Obviously you don't want perfect symmetry but it's easier to get the bulk of the work done in a perfect T-pose or similar position.

OnlineRender
02-02-2010, 06:54 AM
I would go with T- then you always have the ability to animate it ....depends what you want . 3DC has bones now and some crazy things going on !

hrgiger
02-02-2010, 07:26 AM
when im done with my current (paid) project, i plan to modell a human...myself, actually.
(yes, im human...dont get fooled by the iron jaw).

I plan to use series of photos to model from...anyone with experience with this?

Should i model straight into pose, or into a t-pose and then shape it into a pose?

If you're not going to animate it, a t pose is fine. 3Dsk is the place to go for human reference. http://www.3d.sk/

If you do want to animate it, I would recommend modeling it in the anatomical pose which is feet space slightly apart, arms down at a 45 degree angle with the palms of the hands facing forward.

lwaddict
02-02-2010, 07:49 AM
Well, aside from sticking a camera on your roof aimed at your neighbor's daughter...

You could do this old school...

Get videos:

exercise videos
nature videos
animal activity (hunting, running, jumping, chillin') videos
stunt action videos (for physics studies)
"and they walked away" videos
etc, etc, etc.

Most can be picked up in bundles in the most ignored video sections at Target, Wallmart, Best Buy, and Fry's Electronics... I generally pick em up for about 10 bucks for a pack of 4.

This way you can avoid all that living:
Working out,
Going to the woods, the sea, the mountains, the city,
Blowing up cars, jumping from buildings, smashing windshields,
tempting wild beasts in their territory,
etc,etc, etc.

And you can pause, playback, etc over and over again.

But that's just me.
I guess you could go the roof cam route if you can't resist the urge.
Just don't aim it at my house.
Heck, even I don't wanna see me on the way into the shower.
You've been warned.

SBowie
02-02-2010, 08:01 AM
Well, aside from sticking a camera on your roof aimed at your neighbor's daughter...Could we refrain from these kind of comments, and keep the thread useful? I know they may be simply meant as playful, but ultimately they are flame bait. There's useful info in this thread, I'd like to see it continue.

wacom
02-02-2010, 08:03 AM
I have the basics of proportions down (the basics) in terms of the most fundamental structures and land marks. While these vary from person to person, and also where you reference varies, I do like going by them and prefer material that references them.

If I had more money I'd go with all the Vilppu training- really nice stuff and very constructive while not being to rigid. I find a lot of his insights really wonderful. http://www.vilppustudio.com/

The preview videos for http://alienthink.com/ work kind of put me off personally... don't get me wrong, they have their appeal, but I kind of get turned off by people who are too sketchy in their work and seem to be...feeling their way there etc. I think it's important to imagine the whole first, lay it out in an inspired way, then drill down IMHO. I can't really explain it but it just doesn't work for me (from what I've seen). I would like to get more bold, more lyrical with my work.

I will check out those ones at the Andrew Loomis site though. I find that even if 90% of the older tutorial books are kind of rubbish in how they teach, there are always a few gems in there esp. for an illustrator.

I'd also like to add that at this point I'm not so much having a problem getting poses and the surface OK, esp with detail, but I'm wanting to go a step further and get to know how some of the major muscles connect and work- so from life can only go so far IMHO. The little I've learned about the skull and basic muscles of the face has really lead me to believe that this is the route I need to take to take my work to the next level. Additionally, I have very little time to work right off of a reference, and it's more important that I capture the feel, look, gesture quickly, and then later be able to re-construct something from that frame work with the knowledge of "how things work" in my head.

colkai
02-02-2010, 08:39 AM
There is always the old fashioned "people watching".
Used to sit on the harbour on hols, watching folks go by, the missus said it was invaluable for her drawing. Especially as it was a 'natural' walk or stance, as soon as you ask someone to do something, it ceases to be truly natural.

When they are just pottering around they are relying on their subconscious to move them along so you can get a real judge of movement that way. Not to mention, you can get some fascinatingly diverse forms.

Tranimatronic
02-02-2010, 08:58 AM
Use bodybuilder reference when you are creating that type of character (ie. superhero, hulking beast) but don't use it to learn human anatomy. Just my .02.


Agreed !
If you look at the zBrush website all you see are sculpts of super-humans with bizarre proportions. I did these myself. I see these type of exercises as a part of the learning curve, but in the end you have to control these 'bulges' to try to make more believable lifelike images.

It is WAAAY harder to try an over or under weight subject, where the muscles are suggested rather than in your face. Different people have fat deposits in different places. Once you can control these in your sculpts you are on your way to becoming good ;)

I WOULD love to hear how people manage to explain downloads of pictures of naked people to their wives. I started modeling everyone in Y-Fronts for a while until my wife decided my Y-Front fetish was worse than me staring at naked women..... :D

lwaddict
02-02-2010, 11:23 AM
Could we refrain from these kind of comments, and keep the thread useful? I know they may be simply meant as playful, but ultimately they are flame bait. There's useful info in this thread, I'd like to see it continue.

My bad. Couldn't resist the sarcasm. :jester:

shrox
02-02-2010, 11:28 AM
...(yes, im human...dont get fooled by the iron jaw)...

Iron jaw? I thought that was safety tape reminding us to keep our hands away from your mouth....

*Pete*
02-02-2010, 05:54 PM
Iron jaw? I thought that was safety tape reminding us to keep our hands away from your mouth....

heheh...good one :thumbsup:

....for your own safety, sir.

geothefaust
02-02-2010, 11:18 PM
ooohhhh the perks of having Human Motricity teacher at home...

Strength Training Anatomy: Your Illustrated Guide to Muscles at Work. By Frederic Delavier (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Strength-Training-Anatomy/Frederic-Delavier/e/9780736041850)

Yes... its full of drawings of overworked men and women, but the drawings are great, tagged and with the active muscles signed.
Maybe mor suitable for ppl wanting to make bigs guys and animate them, than classical scupltures... but... well... my 2 cents :P



Hey I have that book, it is a good one. :)

Highly recommend it for those types of bodies (large muscular ones), for reference.