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View Full Version : Tips for decent explosions and smoke with hypervoxels?



stevenpalomino
01-31-2010, 07:37 AM
Hey everyone,

I've been looking around and I can't seem to find any tutorials or anything on the forums that shows any good ways to set up some good explosions or smoke (mostly smoke) with the hypervoxels system.. I know it's not the best way to get good looking smoke.. but I've seen different shots done in LW and they used the hypervoxels so I know it's possible to get good smoke/explosions..

Anyway.. any tips/walkthroughs would be VERY greatly appreciated!

Steven

OnlineRender
01-31-2010, 08:42 AM
You can make excellent smoke with LW , LW's particle system/hypervoxels is very powerful,now fire that can be more difficult but smoke , pheew that's easy .
Since I like to give an open view ,I would also suggest looking at Blenders smoke system ,very easy to set up "works kinda like there fluids." ,if you know how to work Hvoxels in LW your nearly there , it's more about the tweaks & texturing & render settings ,LOL (",)

depends on your scene and factors
( nothing is set in stone,oldskool method )

Null -> Particle emitter .

Birth rate would climb from 0 - *** if the smoke has just started .

Null ->Wind Emitter

( use the wind emitter to infuleance the smoke , you can also key frame , create a decent look )

"you can create a domain/box for the gravity "
but that depends on whats going on ,mostly you control the effect via your settings .

Then via hypervoxels , enable , view , more settings , more settings texture . :P

you can make several emitters / nulls untill you get what you want .
go into the graph editor you can blend the layers .

Render :
Somebody else can fill that in ..............

IN SHORT MESS ABOUT !

Peace

Markc
01-31-2010, 09:01 AM
Check out http://www.kurvstudios.com/
They have some really good tutorial videos (to buy).

AbnRanger
01-31-2010, 11:54 AM
I watch the SyFy (formerly SciFi) channel a bit and I can spot LW Hypervoxels on all the super cheap/super cheesy shows on there. They really need an overhaul when CORE reaches that point. I would instead invest time learning Blender VFX tools as they are (surprisingly) closer to Maya Fluids or Houdini's fluids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeF2e-IrKSA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uF6_zhy-7E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrXcdP01qRk
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-250/smoke-simulation/

Cageman
01-31-2010, 12:48 PM
Hmm... true, but I wonder if it is JUST the voxels that are the problem? Time you have and knowledge is also a HUGE factor. With enough time and knowledge, LWs voxels can be made to look really good. As with many effects like this, alot of work is also done in a compositing application. David Ridlen have done a bunch of really good looking examples, using LW+Fusion (if I'm not misstaken).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFvGurOobsU
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xurgonic#p/a/u/1/mnzfeyc-bH4
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xurgonic#p/u/20/8ZuqZZWiutc
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xurgonic#p/u/21/n9PyX7LZ_2o

AbnRanger
01-31-2010, 01:29 PM
Hmm... true, but I wonder if it is JUST the voxels that are the problem? Time you have and knowledge is also a HUGE factor. With enough time and knowledge, LWs voxels can be made to look really good. As with many effects like this, alot of work is also done in a compositing application. David Ridlen have done a bunch of really good looking examples, using LW+Fusion (if I'm not misstaken).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFvGurOobsU
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xurgonic#p/a/u/1/mnzfeyc-bH4
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xurgonic#p/u/20/8ZuqZZWiutc
http://www.youtube.com/user/Xurgonic#p/u/21/n9PyX7LZ_2oI recall David also saying it is a lot of work just to get a decent result in HV's. Let's face it...they are quite outdated. I wonder if maybe in the short term, some new fractal patterns may help achieve a more realistic look.
In Max...Afterburn looks better than PyroCluster, in my opinion, for that very reason....more patterns and more options for each.

SplineGod
01-31-2010, 01:54 PM
One nice thing is that DPonts Rman collection and his node texture plugin allows nodal to be used on Hypertextures and other aspects of HVs. Lots of useful stuff :)

Cageman
01-31-2010, 11:13 PM
One nice thing is that DPonts Rman collection and his node texture plugin allows nodal to be used on Hypertextures and other aspects of HVs. Lots of useful stuff :)

Yep! There are some usefull things right there. DPont is the man! :)

prometheus
02-01-2010, 03:38 AM
what type of smoke are you most interested in?

The lighter type of smoke is a little bit easier I think to acheive..especially
working with sprites, you can also increasy density and with proper gradients on lumonosity channels and opacity, you can get decent volume
feel to it.

thicker billowing smoke can be harder and are render intensive since you
probably would like to use volume hv:s

also controlling thick billowing smoke with winds isnīt that easy to
get right..you might wanīt to simply work with point clusters also..especially for smoke that moves very slowly.
check out studio daily and the chapter on the tv series 24 and the
nuke in there..a mix between hypervoxels for smoke stem and dynamite plugin for mushroom cloud.

the dynamite demo plugin can also use polygons when attaching itīs voxels, so you can get nice movements if you morph poly geometry.
Iīll see if I can post some samples on vimeo later on today showing
wireframe,open gl and voxel render samples from dynamite on geometry
a simple cloud rise, but it can be used for explosions or smoke aswell.

explosions can be made in lot of ways..from simple nulls wich can give nice
motions but are limited in that it isnīt dynamic, can be good to use thou
when mixing in comp.

http://www.presetcentral.com/preset/browse/#

otherwise you can give a particle emitter a little explosionn and vibration..
there you need to find a balance between right amount of particles and
how the hypervoxels are sized over time.

then you can explode an emitter and parent a child emitter..here you can
also add different winds, maybe one for the explode emitter to direct the first particles direction and another vortex wind to att turbulence for the particle trails, and perhaps a third to rise the secondary emitters upwards.


some old threads
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101787
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101787&page=3

and hereīs a free sample scene from me that you can start with perhaps..

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77333&d=1253120057

http://vimeo.com/user680656/videos

Michael

prometheus
02-01-2010, 10:53 AM
well as I mentioned in my earlier post..I uploaded three sample video views
on vimeo.com
of how the dynamite plugin can be used on morphed geometry for
creating cloud rise or smoke rising and even explosions..

a wireframe sample..
an opengl view of the rotation... and a voxel render.

This was actually just made to show some people at cgtalk what I mean
would enhance vueīs metacloud in terms of shaping clouds and distribute
the metacloud spheres and also getting a cumulus rising look.

this can be handy also for thick smoke rise and explosions..

http://vimeo.com/videos/search:michael+ivarsson/sort:newest/format:thumbnail

Michael

dandeentremont
02-01-2010, 11:49 AM
Smoke and fire need to be separate emitters to get the most realistic result. The same goes for the smoke/fire elements of explosions.

Also, always test your hypervoxels against a non-black background. Everything looks awesome against black.

DLIT
03-08-2010, 05:23 AM
Hypervoxels are probably quite powerful but it is A SHAME that Mr NEWTEK just drops a few lines in his manual about the subject. So many parameters are there to be handled with that it means wasting huge amount of time to start from scratch there. Of course some commercial tutorials exist. Not bad but not good enough to, for instance, get quick and easy understanding of the influence of such or such parameter especially in the HYPERTEXTURE TAB. Scaling, Rotating the texture and at the same time choosing a texture effect over a texture choice. Now what does what in dozens and dozens of possible combination. At least a guide is needed. William Vaughn or some other talented teacher might be of great assistance for profit of both LW users and LW fame.

prometheus
03-08-2010, 06:37 AM
Now what does what in dozens and dozens of possible combination. At least a guide is needed. William Vaughn or some other talented teacher might be of great assistance for profit of both LW users and LW fame.


That will probably be pretty extensive..and as such there is commercial
tutorials about it, check http://www.desktopimages.com/Hypervoxels.shtml
or check tim dunnīs particle and voxel training at kurv studios..

Second alternative..browse throu all over the net and save and sort
in all tutorials in proper folders and go through them.

third altenative..do a search on hypervoxels,fire and smoke on these forums and spinquad..save down threads and learn from peoples suggestions here.

fourth alternative..stay up late at night for hours and hours and days to months and learn by tweaking...

Donīt expect to learn or master it within a couple of days...

Im more concerned of the lack of updates to it, or when itīs arriving to lightwave core.


Michael
http://vimeo.com/user680656/videos

SplineGod
03-08-2010, 07:49 AM
THe problem is that no matter how well its described in the manual words dont do it justice. Youre best bet is to take and do every option Prometheus gave.
Also you have Dponts RMan collection and nodes which greatly expand just what can be done with HVs, hypertextures etc. :)

DLIT
03-09-2010, 08:24 AM
Thanks for tips and advice. No one is reasonnably expecting to master anything in 3D without spending some time and work over it but I maintain that the miserable info given by Newtek in the manual for such a tool is a shame. There's a difference between covering entirely the subject and say practically nothing. So many people around here are complaining about that. I bought all Kurv and Asile FX videos. As I said not bad but not going into these hypertexture tab handling where I guess there's a lot to do. LW would put value to this hypervoxels tool if thinking about a structured teaching about every aspect of the basics at least. (as they did for instance for the fiber fx)

prometheus
03-09-2010, 09:06 AM
fiber fx..whats that?..:)

well yeah..I can understand what you say...it can be confusing not knowing where and when to use world coordinates for example.
that and how the effects work would fit in with a fast guide, basicly how the motion works.

The whole shading tab with opacity,luminosity etc is too extensive for that thou

some tip of the hypervoxels hypertexture tab regarding motions
start out by testing the different effects one a single null object and go through them one by one, you can use sprites initially for faster feedback
and test it with viper
change speed rate to see how it works.

Also remember that if you use a texture scale size that is big, the whole
hypertexture will start to flicker or move rapidly, that needs to be balanced
by lowering the hypertexture effect speed.

the velocity translate can give some interesting motions if you have
aligned to path on.

Michael

DLIT
03-10-2010, 07:49 AM
Here is link to tutorials by William Vaughn about LW fiber fx among other tuts

http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/Newest_Links.htm

prometheus
03-10-2010, 08:21 AM
Here is link to tutorials by William Vaughn about LW fiber fx among other tuts

http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/Newest_Links.htm


And howīs that related to this hypervoxel thread:screwy:

Michael

DLIT
03-10-2010, 09:07 AM
And howīs that related to this hypervoxel thread:screwy:

Michael

It's not but as you seemed to be ignoring what fiber fx was in your former message, I just gave you the reference. Newtek also issued a 52 pages user guide about it and I think they just might have do at least the same for hvs.

shrox
03-10-2010, 10:34 AM
I guess it depends on when you buy. Three years ago, I upgraded to LW V 9.5, and for free I got Essential Lightwave V9, several training DVDs, two of which I found useful, and they were on HVs and came with a few sample scenes. I realize they were third party items, but it did make a nice and more complete package.

prometheus
03-11-2010, 12:18 AM
It's not but as you seemed to be ignoring what fiber fx was in your former message, I just gave you the reference. Newtek also issued a 52 pages user guide about it and I think they just might have do at least the same for hvs.

Hmm..I guessed that was the reason, maybe the smiley after the message didnīt do that statement justice.
I actually do know what fiber fx is..donīt use it thou.

As for hypervoxels guidance, I would like to see references at Lightwiki, it
fills in where Newtek might have missed, ignored or simple donīt feel to be necessary for in depth explaination.

Questions..What specificly do you not understand in hypertextures tab,
is it the texture effect? texture types? shading?

Michael

DLIT
03-12-2010, 07:17 AM
The link I gave to membershaw.ca is not only a path to fiber fx tuts by Proton but one of the best collection of LW tuts about all topics on the web, including about hypervoxels and explosions.(Troitzsch and Filanov did good tuts but for still renders only)

Apart that point, I m not sure to agree upon some opinion saying excellent smoke fx can be achieved in LW. There are a lot of tests and samples in various tuts but getting true realistic results is one notch up.

When a pyro/smoke fx is made in a cg project, it can mimic real fx and be accepted as such because the whole project has cg style. But when you have to mix such an effect with a truelife shot realism it is far more difficult to achieve. Big prod pros probably are not willing to give away their tips and tricks so we have to find out by ourselves.

The fact that Newtek gives absolute no indication about some tabs of hv setup lets us unaware whether these parameters are really working or may be bugged. Sometimes tweaking such or such seem to have no effect on the render.

Namely the whole lower section of the hypertexture tab is baffling. How will tweaking all these parameter affect the affect of one or a bunch of particles ? Especially when comes the time to animate that is another challenge from still renders. There, some book or video is to be written about by a specialist.

prometheus
03-14-2010, 03:35 PM
The link I gave to membershaw.ca is not only a path to fiber fx tuts by Proton but one of the best collection of LW tuts about all topics on the web, including about hypervoxels and explosions.(Troitzsch and Filanov did good tuts but for still renders only)

Apart that point, I m not sure to agree upon some opinion saying excellent smoke fx can be achieved in LW. There are a lot of tests and samples in various tuts but getting true realistic results is one notch up.

When a pyro/smoke fx is made in a cg project, it can mimic real fx and be accepted as such because the whole project has cg style. But when you have to mix such an effect with a truelife shot realism it is far more difficult to achieve. Big prod pros probably are not willing to give away their tips and tricks so we have to find out by ourselves.

The fact that Newtek gives absolute no indication about some tabs of hv setup lets us unaware whether these parameters are really working or may be bugged. Sometimes tweaking such or such seem to have no effect on the render.

Namely the whole lower section of the hypertexture tab is baffling. How will tweaking all these parameter affect the affect of one or a bunch of particles ? Especially when comes the time to animate that is another challenge from still renders. There, some book or video is to be written about by a specialist.

You know there are some good stuff rendered for smoke animation scenes
in some tv series and demo reels, it depends very much on what kind of
smoke or explosion required for the shot and as such they can be very
different in character as fire,smoke and explosions are too.

But yeah..I do agree that depending on what type of smoke or fire o explosion you wish to simulate..it cant simulate it properly without
a truly dynamic fluid solution for some shots, thatīs another story thou
and our best hope for now might be the upcoming bakudan or find other
software solutions for it.

I think big production companys are giving away quite alot in terms of basic
principles and more so about how they create smoke and fire and how
they use fluid solutions to tackle different shots, and many times they
are developing new tools or pipeline tools to integrate different softwares to work with each other better, those are things that most ordinary freelancers or hobby users wonīt be able to work with without getting
inside the big studios, so acheiving such heavy effects probably isnīt that
easy to work out even if we have fluids systems available.

Check out cgsociety, vfx talk, they always have interesting articles and some basic insights of many effects such as superman fire smoke from aeroplane and cloud creation..
http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=3644&page=3

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/vfxtalk-meets-kevin-baillie-talk-superman-returns-t6571.html?

And as mentioned, there are videos out there going through what
hypertextures do and donīt, desktop images understanding hypervoxels and explosion series and kurv studios particle training with dim dunn and Katīs new explosion series might be worth checking out, even thou I havent.

Thereīs not much we can do about the lack of documentation of hypervoxels, hopefully they see us whining a little bit so it might be a little better next time around, but there are resources out there, some free and some commercials and Ive pointed out some of it, You can also set your
mind to a state of ..Im going to learn this god damit, and start play around with it, and for that you need to set of a lot of time and patience.

And ask questions as clearly and detailed you can on the forums so people can give you advices or explain more detailed in correspondence to that.

Michael

DLIT
03-19-2010, 07:31 AM
some questions to start illustrating my insight :
about the lower panel of the hypertexture tab with 4 subtabs driving scale, position, rotation, falloff plus worldcoordinates and automatic sizing tab :
1/ What is the scale tab supposed to drive ? Geometry of the hypervoxel is supposed to be driven by the geometry tab, so what is the interaction with the hypertexture scale tab ?
2/ This scale tab is expressed in meters. Should it be so or expressed as a percentage of the geometry scale tab in the geometry tab ?
3/ What are the worldcoordinates and automatic sizing tabs referring to ? Should one understand that the hypertexture is sort of a mapping applied to hvs ? individually or as a group of particles ?
4/ What interference between the rotation in the hypertexture tab with the rotations of particles driven by the particle emitter ?
5/ What is the position referring to ? similar question as #3
6/ What is the falloff referring to ? scale, position or rotation ?
7/ How are operating the various types of falloff appearing in this subtab ?

This is just to start with. Not a word about these parameters in LW manual. Same about the expressions and modifiers available for every enveloppable parameter in the graph editor. Impossible to get into this without initiatic guide lines from people who devised these tools.

prometheus
03-19-2010, 08:17 AM
some questions to start illustrating my insight :
about the lower panel of the hypertexture tab with 4 subtabs driving scale, position, rotation, falloff plus worldcoordinates and automatic sizing tab :
1/ What is the scale tab supposed to drive ? Geometry of the hypervoxel is supposed to be driven by the geometry tab, so what is the interaction with the hypertexture scale tab ?
2/ This scale tab is expressed in meters. Should it be so or expressed as a percentage of the geometry scale tab in the geometry tab ?
3/ What are the worldcoordinates and automatic sizing tabs referring to ? Should one understand that the hypertexture is sort of a mapping applied to hvs ? individually or as a group of particles ?
4/ What interference between the rotation in the hypertexture tab with the rotations of particles driven by the particle emitter ?
5/ What is the position referring to ? similar question as #3
6/ What is the falloff referring to ? scale, position or rotation ?
7/ How are operating the various types of falloff appearing in this subtab ?

This is just to start with. Not a word about these parameters in LW manual. Same about the expressions and modifiers available for every enveloppable parameter in the graph editor. Impossible to get into this without initiatic guide lines from people who devised these tools.

The scale tab is simply the size of the hypertexture that is applied on the volumetric pixels..hypervoxels, not really talking about geometry here since we are working with volumetrics, the hypertexture keeps itīs scale
when you change the particle size so those do not have any relationship in terms of scale.

hypertexture speed affects the hypertexture scale or vice versa, if you
have large hypertexture scale it will move very fast so be careful with that
and start by using low speed on large hypertexture scale.

I dontīhave the time to give explanations of every detail here, and for some things I simply donīt know.

I think I have a good grasp of most of the settings thou, or for what effect im trying to get to thou, thats the main thing.
You could probably write a holy bible of every little detail in how lightwave
works, but not sure if that would be of gain for the 3d artist.

If youre really into smoke,explosions..put some money resources in to
buying some of the kurv studios videos ,like advanced particles from tim dunn, and katīs explosion series, or get desktop images hypervoxels series.

Michael

Michael

prometheus
03-19-2010, 08:34 AM
ohh..hypertextures scale unit is set in general preferences, so
you can choose from mm,micro,km, or meters..or simple enter the
correct extension when entering values manually.

Michael

DLIT
03-23-2010, 10:38 AM
On your site you present some results made with Dynamite. Do you have any preference for Dynamite vs LW ? If so for what reasons ?

prometheus
03-23-2010, 12:05 PM
On your site you present some results made with Dynamite. Do you have any preference for Dynamite vs LW ? If so for what reasons ?

Me..?
http://vimeo.com/user680656/videos

Well..Dynamite is dead in the water, and the developer probably couldnīt
handle the dynamite and had an accident or something, his gone...:D

Apart from dynamite having smoke and fire fluids...not going in to that thou and bakudan might be a replacement when itīs released.

hypervoxels and dynamite voxels is based on same principles, different texturing, dynamite has itīs own cel smoke,turbulence,perlin and maybe one or more, fast cel smoke I think.

Im not that fond of those textures in dynamite, a bit limiting in tweaking, but for some smoke explosions they are pretty good as is.
thereīs an option to use lightwaves procedurals, but that doesnīt work
well, extremly slow and doesnīt have the same results as if they were applied on hypervoxels.

the textures in dynamite can be controlled in coverage wich is a big difference between hypervoxels, it also has an internal shader to allow for temperature heat and cooling off..but there are a lot of tweaking that
can be made in hypervoxels to get special looks or weird stuff that dynamite doesnīt do well.

Dynamite also has options for a metaball blending in volume mode similar to hypervoxelssurface blending but are not available in hypervoxels volume mode.
(volume mode is also the only mode dynamite has for voxels, no sprites or surfaces),

hypervoxels can only be applied on points,vertices on objects or on particles, so they adapt position based on that.

Dynamite has the option to adapt position,rotation and scale based on polys..so called polyons.
The samples of dynamite voxels on my vimeo page was to show how metaclouds in vue could and should work for shaping and animating clouds if it were to adapt similar techniques as in dynamite.

other than that thereīs only two small clips with fluid fire from dynamiteīs
fluid engine. explosion samples are all hypervoxels and very simple singel null objects with hypervoxels expanding and some different hypertextures effects described..explosion 1 and 3 can be downloaded from
www.presetcentral.com

I love hypervoxels sprite..so many things you can do with them, and they
are really easy to set up compared to other apps from what Ive seen..but I mostly use for
softer effects..light smoke,whispy stuff or nebulas or atmosphere..
and hypervoxels volume mode has rayleigh scattering and some other illumination models that dynamite has..I also think you can control shadows and light penetration, opacity, softness with gradients with more control in hypervoxels than with dynamite.

so if I could put the fireshader from dynamite in to hypervoxels, and if
I could put the metaball and polyons mode in there to..that would be almost enough, dynamite also has opengl representation on how it moves or rotates.

as mentioned I prefer the hypertextures in hypervoxels over dynamite..
thereīs so many options with all procedurals out there like dpontīs textures..those wonīt work properly with dynamite.

Hypervoxels has been left in cold water thou, and needs some boosting..
distance between particle gradients,metaball blending, poly adaptation etc..
but we wonīt see any of that until core, thatīs my guess, and that might
be a totaly different volume animal, wich could be both good and bad..well see...I would like to see lsystems, with metaball and metaball blending and
a volumetric handler to convert objects to volumetric objects like implicit
volume surfaces in houdini.

Note..
the latest version of dynamite demos as well as full versions
were bugged and crashed when used on particles..unless using 64 bit
systems.
older demos will work..but from what Ivé seen, the fireshader didnīt render correctly...especially noticably when using metaballs.

a combination of hyperoxels and dynamite working together and why
can be seen in older lightwave profiles of effects on tv-series 24.
check youtube or search around on the web for that.

Michael

SAHiN
03-24-2010, 03:45 AM
HV is pretty much a self explanatory concept in LW.

Add a HV emitter or a null into scene
open up your HV panel
activate it
there are tons of smoke and fire presets that come with LW apply one of them
check settings, study how they were done
and create what you need..

These things are bit of trial and error dude. No one can teach you everything in one single manual..

People take webinars, buy tutorial videos, read all the material they can get their hands on to in order to learn these things..

Just pull apart the presets that come with LW and go on from there..

prometheus
03-24-2010, 04:05 AM
thereīs also preset central with my presets..could be tweaked a little
more for more complete look thou, but itīs a start.

they can be found under hypervoxels explosions.
I wont put up any more until someone else starts to upload their presets.

Common people..thereīs only two presets up there, and they are mine!!

www.presetcentral.com


Michael