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circleofsmoke
01-16-2010, 09:49 AM
Hi
I need to produce an overgrown city for a scifi short I'm working on with a friend. We are hoping to do a fair bit of camera matching tracking mixing real and cgi footage together in a seamless blend :-)
- is lightwave the right tool for that kind of job or should I look elsewhere?


Thanks for any suggestions

John

medicalart
01-16-2010, 10:05 AM
What other apps will you be using? Or are you considering? I assume you realize that you can't just jump into LW, or any other compositor, 3D program, etc., for that matter and not plan on a steep learning curve.

shrox
01-16-2010, 10:17 AM
Here is what a real city deserted by humans looks like after just over 20 years. Chernobyl.

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4RNWN_enUS244US245&q=chernobyl%20town&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

circleofsmoke
01-16-2010, 12:10 PM
been using LW for years but havent ever done any organic modelling

was thinking about Vue for the eco systems but not sure how real it is also looking at xfrog in conjunction with C4D or maya (never used either but its going to be a part time project so I should be able to put the hours in to learning assuming its the right environment to work in - just researching at the moment

cresshead
01-16-2010, 01:19 PM
Here is what a real city deserted by humans looks like after just over 20 years. Chernobyl.

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4RNWN_enUS244US245&q=chernobyl%20town&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

good blog here on a visit
http://www.lindsayfincher.com/2007/07/dispatches-from-chernobyl-part-iii-the-ghosts-of-pripyat.html

shrox
01-16-2010, 01:24 PM
good blog here on a visit
http://www.lindsayfincher.com/2007/07/dispatches-from-chernobyl-part-iii-the-ghosts-of-pripyat.html

It hasn't overgrown as much as I might have guessed. Maybe I was expecting more vine covered buildings and less colorful paint.

shrox
01-16-2010, 01:25 PM
been using LW for years but havent ever done any organic modelling

was thinking about Vue for the eco systems but not sure how real it is also looking at xfrog in conjunction with C4D or maya (never used either but its going to be a part time project so I should be able to put the hours in to learning assuming its the right environment to work in - just researching at the moment

Have you used Vue much? I have never tried it, I am going to check out the demo.

medicalart
01-16-2010, 01:48 PM
Vue 5 came with LW a few years back and you could get that to do amazing things quickly. Getting it to work with LW was another matter entirely back then. I'll check out the above thread, too, to see if things have improved. Agree with Mega's commonent --Eon's tech support was the worst. Again, maybe things have improved.

HD instance works well for populating scenes. I bought it last year and am glad to have it. Maybe LWCore will include instancing.

circleofsmoke
01-17-2010, 12:00 PM
thanks fo the suggestions

I've just messed around with the vue demo - its never felt that convincing but I also never had a project to make me devote the time to it. I've got terragen which also does great looking stills (and mojo which sadly never quite made the grade - and Bryce!) but the interface is tricky and no real animation options makes it of limited use.

The big issue is camera tracking and vue does support syntheyes - or at least the older versions did so maybe I need to spend some time with it. It seems to offer LW 9.6 support but to what extent I dont know

Exception
01-17-2010, 03:25 PM
Vue might be a good path to go on, but you do need nerves of steel dealing with it and LW working together.

We take a different approach: ONYX plants and HD Instance. Basically you spend one day with Onyx plants and bang out 100 great 3D models of a variety of trees, shrubs, ferns, whatever your fancy. Make a few varieties of each plant. Onyx looks and feels ancient and outdated. This is true from a user interface perspective, however the biological research and the implementation of it in the program is superb. You really get fantasticly natural objects from it. It's clearly been made by people who love plants and program out of necessity. The 3D models are clean and the lightwave output is nice, pre-surfaced and clean.

In LW modeler make a few standard materials, and absolutely make sure to use HD Instance's powerful color shader that varies the color of each surface in a certain range for each instance. Also, make sure you clip map your leaves of shrubs and trees rather than transparency map them. This does require you to save them in a scene, just do it in one scene containing all plants.

In your 3D model just pain/spray/etc with point clouds. You can do boolean operations on them fast and easy if you temporarily convert the points to single point polygons. This also works with flat terrains (if you need help with that let me know).

Then set up a few, not more than a few, Hd instance 'groups' and let HD instance randomize the models used. So, 10 plant types per point cloud, just have one for shrubs, one for ferns, one for trees, etc.

That gets you a great result really fast. Look in the gallery section of some of that work.

Also, the Sumatra vegetation paint plugin is great. Check it out here: http://www.svenart.de/
You can use those in combination, let HD Instance take care of the bulk, and use Sumatra to finetune and add local detail.

medicalart
01-17-2010, 05:57 PM
I haven't tried Onyx. Looks like it caters to 3DMAX. How would one import the Onyx models into LW? Thanks.

cresshead
01-17-2010, 06:14 PM
http://www.onyxtree.com/about.html

http://www.onyxtree.com/IMAGE-GAL/gall-jackson1A-700x394.jpg

http://www.onyxtree.com/IMAGE-GAL/gall-bec2009pv1-720x540-2.jpg


http://www.onyxtree.com/IMAGE-GAL/gall-bazurov1-640x480.jpg

cresshead
01-17-2010, 06:20 PM
carrara paks

http://www.daz3d.com/i/software/carrara?_m=d

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/7599/med_popup_2.jpg

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/7599/med_popup_3.jpg

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/10155/med_popup_3.jpg

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/9475/med_popup_3.jpg

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/8138/med_popup_7.jpg

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/7048/image_medium.jpg

import export options
http://www.daz3d.com/i/software/carrara/popup?s=features&p=import_export.php

* NEW! COLLADA export
* Full DAZ 3D Content Support
* Content Browser
* DirectX Export
* PZ3/CR2 Native Import
* FBX (Pro Version)
* RPF Export (Pro Version)
* After Effects Camera Export (Pro Version)
* Match Mover Tracking (Pro Version)

cresshead
01-17-2010, 06:40 PM
http://www.exlevel.com/features/

....for 3dsmax mind you!:devil:

http://www.exlevel.com/gallery/images/Tree_03.jpg

geo_n
01-17-2010, 06:43 PM
Carrara foliage looks good. Are those procedural models in carrara you can export?

cresshead
01-17-2010, 06:46 PM
speed tree..

http://www.speedtree.com/



also 3dsmax plugin version here
http://www.digimation.com/home/Software.aspx?sm=st

http://www.digimation.com/home/img/img80.jpg

cresshead
01-17-2010, 06:50 PM
Carrara foliage looks good. Are those procedural models in carrara you can export?

i got a free version of carrara on a magazine cover disc just so i could have access to the landscape paks...carrara the app is a bit odd with it's ''rooms'' and wot not but you can't knock the quality of the renders from these tree/landscape paks..

as for exporting out to lw..i've not tried it yet but there are many export options listed including FBX :thumbsup:

i'd say try the demo...

Intuition
01-17-2010, 06:57 PM
Ah nice Cress. Reminds me of old Enki trees designer with an interface. ;)

cresshead
01-17-2010, 07:04 PM
lightwave tree designer

http://www.polas.net/trees/shaping.php

http://www.polas.net/trees/shaping/p1.gif

http://www.polas.net/trees/shaping/p7.gif

cresshead
01-17-2010, 07:07 PM
tree cage for lw

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dpont/plugins/TreeCage_Lscript.htm

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/dpont/plugins/TreeCage_Manual/TC_Trunk_Panel.gif

cresshead
01-17-2010, 07:10 PM
VerdureArea Plugin for LightWave 3D

http://www.kurvstudios.com/software/

http://www.kurvstudios.com/images/verdurearea/TreeArea.jpg

http://www.kurvstudios.com/images/verdurearea/FoliageArea.jpg

http://www.kurvstudios.com/images/verdurearea/WeedArea.jpg

cresshead
01-17-2010, 07:22 PM
maya paint effects

just google it!:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRGu8B0HWB0&NR=1

http://bp2.blogger.com/_IlheeT4j3wc/R2iHMzrpMCI/AAAAAAAAATA/1GL5PRZ7cT4/s320/nature_sm.jpg

http://images.gfxartist.com/images/ArtworkItem/full/151809.jpg

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjg0NTgwMzY=.html

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/115/Paint-Effects-101

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/img/products/dvds/ESU01/stills/04.jpg

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/img/products/dvds/ESU01/stills/03.jpg

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/117/Paint-Effects%3A-Polygons-and-Dynamics

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/img/products/dvds/ESU02/stills/07.jpg

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/img/products/dvds/ESU02/stills/02.jpg

nickdigital
01-17-2010, 09:03 PM
This may be of use too.
http://graphics.uni-konstanz.de/~luft/ivy_generator/

cresshead
01-17-2010, 10:09 PM
This may be of use too.
http://graphics.uni-konstanz.de/~luft/ivy_generator/

cool! i was scratching my head trying to remember that one!:D

http://graphics.uni-konstanz.de/~luft/ivy_generator/images/Jerome_Prevost_01.jpg

http://graphics.uni-konstanz.de/~luft/ivy_generator/images/Krzysztof_Cebula_01.jpg

i made a quick test..works okay...still have to figure out what works best and keep the poly count low...

circleofsmoke
01-18-2010, 12:33 AM
wow - in my dreams - they look fantastic - what about animation though?

Exception
01-18-2010, 01:57 AM
I haven't tried Onyx. Looks like it caters to 3DMAX. How would one import the Onyx models into LW? Thanks.

Onyx doesn't cater to 3Dmax specifically. It's a standalone application. As said the LWO export is excellent.

Cress, those nature examples are all great, how do they actually work with LW, what's their mesh quality, how do you apply them on a city wide scale, and how suitable would they be for the question at hand?

I know quite a few of them and several of them don't really strike my fancy in terms of actual usability.

JBT27
01-18-2010, 02:40 AM
Well after all that great stuff, I was going to say (and will) that Onyx and HD Instance is a very solid workflow. Spending money, mind you, but a ton of usability outside of what you want to do.

As well, you will find that HDI will aid in your deserted city building as well.

Julian.

JBT27
01-18-2010, 02:47 AM
It hasn't overgrown as much as I might have guessed. Maybe I was expecting more vine covered buildings and less colorful paint.

Radiation maybe? Just curious.

That History Channel series 'Life After People' visited some old buildings and towns, deserted for decades. Actually one of the most interesting parts of the series amidst the yawn of all the landmarks collapsing.

Julian.

circleofsmoke
01-18-2010, 03:32 AM
HDI does look good - will have a look at sumatra too - if I can stay in lightwave I'd rather

cresshead
01-18-2010, 06:32 AM
Hi
I need to produce an overgrown city for a scifi short I'm working on with a friend. We are hoping to do a fair bit of camera matching tracking mixing real and cgi footage together in a seamless blend :-)
- is lightwave the right tool for that kind of job or should I look elsewhere?


Thanks for any suggestions

John

for the overgrown look i'd try out the free vine creator...what's to lose other than a couple of hours playing in the app?

then for trees,grass have a look at some of the free lw scripts :thumbsup:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=81195&d=1263794968

circleofsmoke
01-18-2010, 06:50 AM
Does anyone have an opinion re HDI vs Sumatra? I will need to anmte the veg to some extent - not sure how much yet until I get the footage

cresshead
01-18-2010, 07:06 AM
sumatra website
http://www.svenart.de/sumatra_about.htm

http://www.svenart.de/content/alreen_1.jpg

http://www.svenart.de/content/muharraqi_image90_1.jpg

cresshead
01-18-2010, 07:12 AM
HD instance

http://www.happy-digital.com/instance_gal.php?artistIndex=12&picIndex=4

http://www.happy-digital.com/images/instance/sunflowers.jpg

shrox
01-18-2010, 07:36 AM
Radiation maybe? Just curious.

That History Channel series 'Life After People' visited some old buildings and towns, deserted for decades. Actually one of the most interesting parts of the series amidst the yawn of all the landmarks collapsing.

Julian.

The radiation appears to have basically no regional effect and the area is now a biological preserve, much like the DMZ between the Koreas, few people go to either place.

Exception
01-18-2010, 11:30 AM
Sumatra is a vegetation painter... its use is different from HDI, they are rather comolimentary than competitive. HDI will let you place and render massive amounts of vegetation in seconds. Sumatra lets you paint vegetation very easily on a model. Sumatra can't do what HDI does, and HDI can't do what sumatra does.

I would say that HDI would be a near-necessity for what you want to do, and Sumatra is a nice addition.

I'm not sure about animation with Sumatra, but I know it can be done with HDI. You can even offset the animation of each instance a little to create natural effects.

dballesg
01-18-2010, 12:07 PM
Treegenerator 2.0 (http://www.treegenerator.com/)

Treegenerator 2.0 Gallery (http://www.treegenerator.com/gallery.htm)

David

circleofsmoke
01-18-2010, 04:57 PM
Havent looked at screamernet since my last project and failed to get any co-operation from despite buying various tools, I think the PPC/intel mix of my network caused problems, Shame HDI doesnt allow baking of some sort

erikals
01-18-2010, 06:48 PM
for pine / cone trees i guess Onyx is the only way to go... ($200)
http://www.onyxtree.com/conifer.html

Exception
01-19-2010, 12:31 AM
Pretty much the ONLY thing I don't like about HD Instance is the fact that you MUST render it either on the same machine that it's licensed to OR via screamernet. You can't take the scene over to another machine with LW on it and just render it there - like you can with ALL of Worley's plugins and most every other plugin. THAT... is a big disadvantage for me. Other than that, I have nothing but praise for HDI.

Just plug over the dongle and you're fine. Or if you have another license it works fine too. I dont see that problem, really.

Exception
01-19-2010, 12:32 AM
Havent looked at screamernet since my last project and failed to get any co-operation from despite buying various tools, I think the PPC/intel mix of my network caused problems, Shame HDI doesnt allow baking of some sort

What sort of baking do you mean?

Exception
01-19-2010, 02:39 AM
If I've got several scenes I'm working on and want to render one with HDI while I work on another with HDI... it doesn't work well AT ALL.

I'm still not quite sure what your problem actually is. Of course we work on scenes with HDI and render them on other machines at the same time, that's pretty much a reality of any project.

In all honesty I find most licensing schemes to be a pain in the behind for the user, and I think the many discussions on this topic keep pointing out that despite the need for some security for the developer pretty much anything is floating around there cracked, free from all this hassle. I agree with you that different licensing schemes have different drawbacks. I just don't quite see the drawback of HDI's scheme versus those of other plugins we have (LWCAD being the most annoying one for me, really). You can't render with HDI without a license except with screamernet. That makes sense to me, otherwise what is the protection for? So you put the license on the other machines, and if they're all started with the dongle that the license is tied to, it works great. Of course, you may have different needs.

JBT27
01-19-2010, 02:55 AM
I'll throw in an extra gotcha here, which is related to a problem HDI seems to have currently with some scenes. I reported this to Graham, and there's a thread somewhere about it from middle of last year, but via LWSN some HDI scenes are taking three and four times longer to render than with F9/F10.

Graham was/maybe still is baffled by it, but it's an absolute killer sometimes - a 6min F9 would rise to 30min via LWSN.

So although not a constant issue, we've commented at those times about if only we could have our meagre two LW licenses rendering the scene via F10. We shouldn't have to, and this is a separate problem, but worth knowing in case you see it happening.

Otherwise, we render HDI scenes via BNR, which usually works a treat.

Julian.

Intuition
01-19-2010, 10:23 AM
Wasn't there a paint program for LW where you could paint instances on geometry and it would work with HD instance for rendering?

Very cool modo/vue/Maya paintFX workflow but inside of Lightwave.

Also, was T-Gen mentioned for XSi?

cresshead
01-19-2010, 10:34 AM
Wasn't there a paint program for LW where you could paint instances on geometry and it would work with HD instance for rendering?

Very cool modo/vue/Maya paintFX workflow but inside of Lightwave.

Also, was T-Gen mentioned for XSi?

meshpaint?

http://www.evasion3d.com/mp_lw_intro.html

http://www.evasion3d.com/gfx/meshpaint/thumbs/t_diko_2.jpg

http://www.evasion3d.com/gfx/meshpaint/thumbs/t_tst_3.jpg


http://www.evasion3d.com/gfx/meshpaint/pics/diko_tut.jpg

Intuition
01-19-2010, 12:55 PM
It wasn't meshpaint but I totally forgot about meshpaint. They alsa had the shadow designer and eDoF. Wow blast from the past.

The Instance painter was posted sometime in the last year. I remember the video showing a guy literally painting instances in Layout on a curved hillside piece of geometry. Then it was supposed to use HD Instance to render those instances.


-edit

---

Found...

Veggie paint..

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91742&highlight=instance+paint

dballesg
01-21-2010, 10:35 AM
Not to much info on this one:

Waco plants (http://mdo.emecstudios.com/)

Looks like they are looking to create another contender for Vue or Terragen.

David

Exception
01-21-2010, 10:48 AM
Wasn't there a paint program for LW where you could paint instances on geometry and it would work with HD instance for rendering?

Oh yeah, veggipaint!
Sumatra is great, but it lacks that important HDI instancing aspect, just has them as normal clones.

That said, LW is able to handle an impressive amount of clones lately. Just make sure they're set to not draw in openGL or just as a box, because the OpenGL of Lw is still slow.

erikals
02-03-2010, 06:18 AM
these are great too,...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBYb7gun1G4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPEglzH579Q