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oobievision
01-14-2010, 08:43 AM
Hey many of you know me. Im pretty decent in lightwave but unfortunately when it comes to creating a rig for a charecter I have no clue where to start. so here my prob Im going to animate this mechanical bee for a short film im working on for my demo reel and I just have no clue how to rig it properly or where to begin rigging. IK and bones are a mystery to me so if anyone knows any good tutorials or anything it would be appreciated.

heres my project so far.

oobievision
01-14-2010, 08:47 AM
another note the wings wont be flapping as this bee has standard aviation wings, but later on in the animation the esoskeloton will crack and a real bee will break out and fly off

AdamAvenali
01-14-2010, 09:48 AM
i would start with the videos from the 24 Hours of Training (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/24hours_training.php) section. if you go down to the Animation section, and then the Character Animation subsection, the first couple of videos there are good intros.

also search for RebelHill's training stuff. i havent personally checked it out, but have heard great things.

Edit: found it: http://rebelhill.net/

oobievision
01-14-2010, 10:46 AM
should I toss everything in one layer or should I keep the separate objects that will move independantly in its own layer?

Dexter2999
01-14-2010, 11:02 AM
I could be wrong but I think one layer is best.
Larry Shultz has some good videos about rigging and IKBoost over at Kurvstudios.com.
I got RebelHill's stuff not too long ago but haven't sat through it yet. It is very popular and seems pretty comprehensive as well.

RebelHill has some free videos of his stuff on his site you can preview. Larry (SplineGod) has stuff I believe over at VFXcast.com. I'd suggest watching both and see which appeals to you more.

oobievision
01-14-2010, 11:08 AM
ok Im checking out the kurv studio ones, but I cant seem to see my bones while in textured shaded mode? wheres the option to see the bones through the mesh?

Dexter2999
01-14-2010, 11:14 AM
I'm not at my Lightwave machine right now. Somewhere around the viewport settings should be a drop down with a setting that says something like "x ray"... you know to look at dones. ;)

oobievision
01-14-2010, 11:18 AM
lol I feel like an idiot, I found it thanks. lol

R.Feeney
01-14-2010, 11:43 AM
For a mechanical bee like this you shouldn't need to mess around with bones, just use the individual parts.

R.Feeney
01-14-2010, 12:34 PM
I did a quick mock up of a segmented leg, nothing too complicated.
It may be too simple for what you want but I hope it helps in some way

hrgiger
01-14-2010, 01:14 PM
The best: http://www.rebelhill.net/

h2oStudios
01-14-2010, 02:00 PM
The best: http://www.rebelhill.net/

:agree: - RH's stuff is top notch and well worth it. I've gone through the whole set before. And having already had some decent experience rigging I have to say that it's got stuff for the total noob to the pro in terms of knowledge...

@ oobievision - Keeping everithing in one layer isn't necessary, it just depends on what you want to deform and how. As previous posters have said, get a look at some of the tut vids that go into weightmaps, bones, joints, IK/FK. Also try to get a handle on bone orientation, as it's very important. Once you get to grips with that stuff you may want to take a look at the PLG plugins (they rock). Think about what it is exactly that you want your rig to do. And if you search LW's content there's a bunch of rigs that you can disect if you have the time; I've found that I learned a hell of a lot just by disecting alone :D.

:thumbsup:

SplineGod
01-14-2010, 02:02 PM
For a mechanical bee like this you shouldn't need to mess around with bones, just use the individual parts.

I agree. You dont need bones and IK works the same with bones or with objects.
You probably dont need some uber complicated rig. Half the battle is just figuring out in advance just what the character needs to be able to do. Use that as a basis to figure out just how complicated it needs to be. Generally a simple rig thats easy to pose and stable in between poses will get you pretty far. That setup R Feeney posted up looks like it should work just fine. :)

Heres something you might take a look at. Its simple and also similar to what youre doing.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/spiderbot.zip

RebelHill
01-14-2010, 03:22 PM
As others have pointed out, with something like this, deforms arent really an issue, as the parts are segmented/articulated part to part, not organically joined.

However when rigging stuff its important to get things like orientation of the parts correct... and by doing it with separate pieces/layers, it becomes far less intuitive to not only get everything aligned properly, but also to have to deal with the movement and placement of all the different pivot points.

So for that reason working with bones and a single layer object is MUCH better... its more intuitive, quicker to work with, and there are more tools inside LW for dealing with the bones for rigging purposes... the trick is jsut to use explicit weights on each piece so as they articulate together as desired.

oobievision
01-14-2010, 08:08 PM
Ok im gonna post my object and scene files here let me know what u think the best solution to be to rig this best. used 7zip for compression.
by the way its driving me nuts ive been at it all day and not even a fluid motions keep getting deformed. or control is out of hand when using IK and I get jittery movements when using pivots. I know I suck lol.


-----
Wishes could download everything straight to his brain.

h2oStudios
01-15-2010, 02:00 AM
Hey, Oobie, man. I've recorded a vid for ya; to try and give you some exposition into the rigging world with an example. Actually the example in the vid is your bee. Gonna try to find a spot to host it (48m 50s... ouch).

oobievision
01-15-2010, 06:16 AM
wow thank u so much

oobievision
01-15-2010, 06:56 PM
no luck on finding hosting?

h2oStudios
01-15-2010, 07:05 PM
Hold on bro. I'm compressing this thing to something reasonable :). Why you know a spot?

oobievision
01-16-2010, 07:06 AM
for 48 min and under 600mb I would use filefront, its mostly for gaming but I use it to send large files out. oh yeah and its free. Filefront.com

h2oStudios
01-16-2010, 05:58 PM
Alright, oobs. I'm done, re-recorded. I think the video is even longer by a bit, lol. But I'm getting it to some reasonable sizes (with Camtasia eval) and will have it posted on the FileFront site you recommended probably in the next couple hours or so. :).

oobievision
01-16-2010, 07:34 PM
wow thats allot of trouble you went to, thank you very much

h2oStudios
01-16-2010, 07:59 PM
wow thats allot of trouble you went to, thank you very much

The software nonsense was a biatch, lol.

Here ya go, hope this gives you some insight.

Note: PLG IK rigging - I just hope you're a win user, or this is worthless, lol.

http://www.filefront.com/15368449/h2o_ForOobie_BeeRig_01.mp4/

http://www.filefront.com/15368561/h2o_ForOobie_BeeRig_02.mp4/

http://www.filefront.com/15368541/h2o_ForOobie_BeeRig_03.mp4/

http://www.filefront.com/15368565/h2o_ForOobie_BeeRig_04.mp4/

http://www.filefront.com/15368549/h2o_ForOobie_BeeRig_05.mp4/

Let me know if any questions, I'm adding an addl vid with some post rigging notes.

whoops almost forgot - 81174

& a crappy Addition - http://www.filefront.com/15368721/h2o_ForOobie_BeeRig_Addl_1.mp4/

lino.grandi
01-17-2010, 03:12 AM
Note: PLG IK rigging - I just hope you're a win user, or this is worthless, lol.



Why? You can use PLG IK plugins even on the Mac.

h2oStudios
01-17-2010, 08:49 AM
Why? You can use PLG IK plugins even on the Mac.

Why was I under the impression that PLG plugs were only good on PPC macs? That's wierd, oh well that's a good thing then that PLG IK functions on macs :thumbsup:

RebelHill
01-17-2010, 08:57 AM
Nope... ur right h2o... only good for ppc... useless on UB, unless run through emulation, which is then slow as hell.

oobievision
01-17-2010, 12:57 PM
yes im a win user so no issues, thanks ill be studying these vids. thanks again.

h2oStudios
01-17-2010, 01:22 PM
you're welcome :thumbsup: Feel free to post any ?'s

oobievision
01-17-2010, 03:43 PM
sure will, thanks again

oobievision
01-18-2010, 11:32 AM
One thing I didnt see the part where u where talking about Skelegons in modeler that vid isnt there the video stops and the next one didnt cover it.. but wow I gotta say u explained so well I understood it right off the bat. and great plugins. thanks for the help.

h2oStudios
01-18-2010, 12:59 PM
FileFront.com is acting stupid, someone else including myslelf have been having trouble DLing the vids. Need to find another spot to host.

h2oStudios
01-18-2010, 01:03 PM
Trying this again...

Try this link for video 1 - I dled and tested... all there -

http://www.filefront.com/15379987/Oobie_BeeRig_01.mp4/

oobievision
01-19-2010, 11:14 AM
awsome, im converting the videos so I can watch it on my TV while I follow along on my pc.

kojean
05-04-2010, 09:35 PM
h2oStudios has kindly re-posted his videos to Vimeo:

h2oStudios BeeRig 1 (http://vimeo.com/11476451)
h2oStudios BeeRig 2 (http://vimeo.com/11476488)
h2oStudios BeeRig 3 (http://vimeo.com/11476506)
h2oStudios BeeRig 4 (http://vimeo.com/11476526)
h2oStudios BeeRig 5 (http://vimeo.com/11476535)
h2oStudios BeeRig 6 (http://vimeo.com/11476544)

h2oStudios previously posted scene file (using PLG IK plugin (http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm)):
IK_rigged_bee_h2o_v007_v001a_v001.zip (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81174&d=1263699055)

geo_n
05-04-2010, 10:05 PM
h2oStudios has kindly re-posted his videos to Vimeo:

h2oStudios BeeRig 1 (http://vimeo.com/11476451)
h2oStudios BeeRig 2 (http://vimeo.com/11476488)
h2oStudios BeeRig 3 (http://vimeo.com/11476506)
h2oStudios BeeRig 4 (http://vimeo.com/11476526)
h2oStudios BeeRig 5 (http://vimeo.com/11476535)
h2oStudios BeeRig 6 (http://vimeo.com/11476544)

h2oStudios previously posted scene file (using PLG IK plugin (http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm)):
IK_rigged_bee_h2o_v007_v001a_v001.zip (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81174&d=1263699055)

Downloading and watching. Thanks h2oStudios. :thumbsup:

Nangleator
05-05-2010, 08:21 AM
I'm not much of an animator, either, so I have a question about animating robots. The two styles are: build it in one layer and use bones, or build it one layer for each moving part, and animate without bones.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use one layer? Advantages: It's a simpler object to keep track of. You don't have to fiddle with placing the pivot point of each layer. Model with skelegons and the pivots can be just as accurate. One bone per moving part, with weight a map just for that part/bone, and there will be no deformation. Disadvantages: Weight maps.

Am I wrong?

RebelHill
05-05-2010, 08:31 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense to use one layer? Advantages: It's a simpler object to keep track of. You don't have to fiddle with placing the pivot point of each layer. Model with skelegons and the pivots can be just as accurate. One bone per moving part, with weight a map just for that part/bone, and there will be no deformation. Disadvantages: Weight maps.

Am I wrong?

No you're not wrong... one layer with weights to isolate each part is tidier and easier to work with than each part with pivots dodged about.

The weightmaps are FAR less of a disadvantage than ahving to deal with all those pieces and pivot positions.

Nangleator
05-05-2010, 08:35 AM
Oh, I missed your post on the first page! It looked like Feeney and SplineGod were proposing the opposite.

lwaddict
05-05-2010, 09:07 AM
Actually, the answer to the robot question should've been...

"It depends"

Everything does.

One layer objects using weights have their place but imagine this...

You've got a robot with pistons at the joints that need to react based on the bend of the joint... using IK on two piston parts that are anchored to the, let's say, forearm and upper arm respectfully works out much better.

Just an example...

"It depends" on what shot is needed.
Everytime.

RebelHill
05-05-2010, 09:40 AM
You've got a robot with pistons at the joints that need to react based on the bend of the joint... using IK on two piston parts that are anchored to the, let's say, forearm and upper arm respectfully works out much better.

Not at all... cos they can jsut anchor to the bones, not the parts/objects.

The bones and weights workflow is faster... folks moan about, oh weights and bones slow the rig down... which is true... if ur still using a 10 yr old PC.

Point is that bones/weights work for everything, organics, or mechanics... so why bother with two very different workflows... get one down, master it, and you'll be able to tackle any task much much faster.

h2oStudios
05-05-2010, 07:21 PM
Okay, clearly I'm not a robotic-design kind of person. But, just as an example of how much easier (IMHO) it is to setup a simple IK leg for a robot with bones (skelegons) & weights, I whipped this up.

84620

edit- forgot to mention it's PLG-IK :)

and one with 2 legs :D 84621

SplineGod
05-05-2010, 10:35 PM
Usually the biggest pain with dealing with discreet parts has been trying to find items to pick when there are long lists of items to pick from.
Usually Ill use bones as pivots with the objects parented to them.
Its then easy to pick the bones out of a small list of bones in the flyout panel or softlock the objects etc.
Sometimes naming the bones with asterisks before the name can help to see them easier in a long list.
Weight maps can work too. It also boils down to how many weight maps are needed vs how many objects need to be parented to bones vs how many discreet parts there are.