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VonBon
12-29-2009, 06:14 PM
i just purchased the hardcore deal and was wondering how
i get my hands on the Core Beta Build.

i dont see any links to it in my downloads section
please :help:

hrgiger
12-29-2009, 07:02 PM
Do you have access to the CORE forums yet? CORE builds do not show up in your registration, the builds are available from the announcement section in the CORE forums.

3DGFXStudios
12-30-2009, 02:44 AM
But activating the account in the HC Forums will take some time.

VonBon
12-30-2009, 02:29 PM
where do i go to get to the HC forum or will they send me an Email
to let me know everything is setup with info on where to go.

i wanna play tooo.

gclayton
12-30-2009, 03:14 PM
When you bought into the CORE Beta you should have received an email that had your purchase receipt info. In that email there should have been a number that you could use to register your CORE purchase.

At least that was how it worked at the initial CORE Beta announcement.

Once you are able to register you will have access to the CORE forums once NewTek adds your user name.

Gil

frantbk
01-02-2010, 10:25 AM
Well, sad to say it is now the 2nd of 2010 and no Lightwave Core. What happened NewTek? I remember predicting this would happen back in March of 09. Any real explanation from NewTek why the core project is behind? When is the new launch date for lightwave with core technology? Anyone?

VonBon
01-02-2010, 10:55 AM
most projects that are done well fall behind schedule.

i hope newtek doesn't rush things just to make people happy.

if they have the backing and need another year to get things right, they
should take it.

this first impression will be important, so no point in halfassing the
development phase just to say they made somthing and its on time.

but i did get everything squared away, thanks for the replies

SBowie
01-02-2010, 11:07 AM
Well, sad to say it is now the 2nd of 2010 and no Lightwave Core. What happened NewTek? I remember predicting this would happen back in March of 09. Any real explanation from NewTek why the core project is behind? When is the new launch date for lightwave with core technology? Anyone?Your answer:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104410

geothefaust
01-02-2010, 12:09 PM
Well, sad to say it is now the 2nd of 2010 and no Lightwave Core. What happened NewTek? I remember predicting this would happen back in March of 09. Any real explanation from NewTek why the core project is behind? When is the new launch date for lightwave with core technology? Anyone?

Yeah, there was a huge press release which you could have found right on the announcement section. But that would make too much sense, right? :deal:

frantbk
01-05-2010, 10:45 AM
Your answer:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104410


What does that mean "better introduce into the lightwave community." What we all have to go back to college now to understand Lightwave with core technology? All I see from the bland statement is that they haven't set a 1st quarter delivery date and when the end of the 1st quarter rolls around - Ooo well we will introduce it in the 2nd quarter of 2010 to better introduce lightwave with core technology into the lightwave community.

Seeing that NewTek missed it delivery date of the 4 quarter of 09, and had over 6 months to meet the their deadline. Don't you think it is time to start showing some of the Core technology in lightwave to the general public - just so they don't believe the company has dropped the ball completely and doesn't have a real clue to when Lightwave with core technology will be released.

Just a thought.

OnlineRender
01-05-2010, 11:14 AM
I don't think they have dropped the ball , more like there just having a kickabout first .

AND LET THE POSTING BEGIN ..................................

SBowie
01-05-2010, 11:15 AM
What does that mean "better introduce into the lightwave community."I really couldn't say, sorry.


Don't you think it is time to start showing some of the Core technology in lightwave to the general publicI don't think many HC members would have a problem with NewTek doing just that, but I guess it's up to NewTek.

frantbk
01-05-2010, 02:55 PM
I don't think they have dropped the ball , more like there just having a kickabout first .

AND LET THE POSTING BEGIN ..................................

Well when the whole project was first announced it was called lightwave Core. Now the company is said lightwave with core technology. Seems like some of the summer of 09 might have been screwed away with an internal kick-fest on which direction to take. Now that it is called lightwave with core technology I'm wondering just how much time was wasted because some of the core engineers were pulled from lightwave to work with core on other projects? During the summer of 2010 will we be hearing about Rendition with Core technology? VT6 with core technology? That's not a bad thing.

frantbk
01-05-2010, 03:09 PM
I don't think many HC members would have a problem with NewTek doing just that, but I guess it's up to NewTek.


Up to NewTek? NewTek has already lived down to my,and many others original expectation of meeting the 4Q release date (didn't have the team capable of delivering). Maybe you HC guys should push a little at NewTek and point out that not all of their directions have paid off. This whole HC only information is why I don't bother wasting time reading any of the e-mails from NewTek anymore. I've been deleting the NewTek e-mails sent because there usually isn't any information worth reading. The only reason I've stopped by is because the 4Q came and went.

If NewTek keeps this up, by the time they release lightwave with core technology at the end of the 1Q, in march of 2011. No! damn you, the 1Q ends in March of 2010, not 2011. Are we sure about that? - NewTek. You've already missed the 4Q release so prove me wrong this time - PLEASE!

geothefaust
01-05-2010, 03:12 PM
Actually Frank, we do push NT. Quite a bit in fact, we've seen changes across the board with CORE from suggestions that users have made.


If you're so anxious to have things done YOUR way, why don't YOU join hC instead of pissing on us to make things so?


Also, they didn't miss Q4. They pushed the release back to Q1. Just because your pissed, doesn't mean you should spew lies.

UnCommonGrafx
01-05-2010, 03:19 PM
At todays juncture, and as an HC member, you being proved right or wrong won't make any difference in the scheme of things; it's their efforts that mean anything.
However, if they continue the path they are on at current, your being satisfied with their efforts won't be in doubt.

;)

UnCommonGrafx
01-05-2010, 03:24 PM
It wouldn't be, at all!!
Alas, I doubt we shall ever see any more VT products out of NT. I believe the most to hope for on this front is to gather all the bugs we can find, submit, and hope they fix for a VT5 update.
Period.
It is not cost effective for them to do hardware any more of the likes of VT. They are getting the TC ready to take the helm. Shucks, they even have an HD version of it...
It was what Bob wrote with lwConnect. Don't I wish...

Babble moment done...

VT6 with core technology? That's not a bad thing.

Kuzey
01-05-2010, 03:25 PM
Up to NewTek? NewTek has already lived down to my,and many others original expectation of meeting the 4Q release date (didn't have the team capable of delivering). Maybe you HC guys should push a little at NewTek and point out that not all of their directions have paid off. This whole HC only information is why I don't bother wasting time reading any of the e-mails from NewTek anymore. I've been deleting the NewTek e-mails sent because there usually isn't any information worth reading. The only reason I've stopped by is because the 4Q came and went.

If NewTek keeps this up, by the time they release lightwave with core technology at the end of the 1Q, in march of 2011. No! damn you, the 1Q ends in March of 2010, not 2011. Are we sure about that? - NewTek. You've already missed the 4Q release so prove me wrong this time - PLEASE!

Actually, in this case, I would so love it if Newtek takes until the end of this year and produce something that is more or less..a standalone app.

Core1, even with LWHC...as a helper app, will still be compared to modo...something, that Newtek should not want. Not because of the features it has or doesn't have, but people will think it's going to take 10 years for it to be a complete app. Something more complete...will make a better impact on the non LW world.

However, they should start to release videos soon...as in the next few days or weeks at the maximum.

Kuzey

UnCommonGrafx
01-05-2010, 03:29 PM
Agreed with everything except the last for vids.
In a month or so vids should be made. Proton should be the one to make them. And they should be what people get to see as what is to come in the hands of someone who knows, now, both apps. (All three for the purists.)

Kuzey
01-05-2010, 03:43 PM
Agreed with everything except the last for vids.
In a month or so vids should be made. Proton should be the one to make them. And they should be what people get to see as what is to come in the hands of someone who knows, now, both apps. (All three for the purists.)

I had this feeling that Proton wasn't using Core or was part of the beta...otherwise, I think we would have had lots of great videos already. I asked about videos in the Dec Newsletter thread and Jay pointed out it was Christmas....sometimes I forget Newtek has holidays off :D

So, I expect/hope the videos start appearing really soon....in this month.

Kuzey

SBowie
01-05-2010, 04:49 PM
Up to NewTek? NewTek has already lived down to my,and many others original expectation of meeting the 4Q release date (didn't have the team capable of delivering). Maybe you HC guys should push a little at NewTek and point out that not all of their directions have paid off. This whole HC only information is why I don't bother wasting time reading any of the e-mails from NewTek anymore.Gee, if I took a similar position I might not have provided a friendly reply to your post. ;)

I'll just add that, to the contrary, most of the HC guys are continually telling NewTek to take all the time they need to get 1.0 to a sweet spot (which no doubt varies widely in people's desires) before releasing. There are, of course, numerous other factors to consider.

frantbk
01-05-2010, 09:57 PM
With frantbk.... the glass is ALWAYS 3/4 empty when it comes to Newtek. He is just like a troll who keeps coming back to piss on Newtek again and again. It's getting kinda funny at this point. ;D

Yeah, Say how did the Title 8 thing workout for you and the others - Oooo yeah the California Supreme Court left you guys high & dry. Did I tell you that was going to happen? Did I tell you that the majority would have their say and that it wasn't unconstitutional? Oooo Yeah I did and you told me I was full of crap. I guess we make a good team - you kiss NewTek's *** and I kick.

frantbk
01-05-2010, 10:01 PM
I had this feeling that Proton wasn't using Core or was part of the beta...otherwise, I think we would have had lots of great videos already. I asked about videos in the Dec Newsletter thread and Jay pointed out it was Christmas....sometimes I forget Newtek has holidays off :D

So, I expect/hope the videos start appearing really soon....in this month.

Kuzey

You forget that business does not wait for anyone and NewTek is a business and can not afford to talk forever to finish a project. A project that they've already missed a release date. This is around showing everyone that isn't already a HC member that NewTek can meet targets that NewTek set for themselves. Nobody but Newtek set the 4Q release date and NewTek was the one that missed it. It says much about NewTek's inability to preform and maintain their projects. It's not about the quality of the product that is now in question, but NewTek's teams ability to preform.

frantbk
01-05-2010, 10:03 PM
Gee, if I took a similar position I might not have provided a friendly reply to your post. ;)

I'll just add that, to the contrary, most of the HC guys are continually telling NewTek to take all the time they need to get 1.0 to a sweet spot (which no doubt varies widely in people's desires) before releasing. There are, of course, numerous other factors to consider.

That's the main problem with this whole HC membership. You and the others are already bought and paid for. NewTek's been living off your HC money for a year now. Who's going to invest in HC membership if there are too many more delays. Are you going to pay for another membership without a finished Core product?

calilifestyle
01-05-2010, 10:20 PM
well i believe frantbk has a right to feel upset. while many of you might not think there's a point's airing this out on the forums. In the old days we would be hounding them on the phone or snail mail. But now we have these forums . It's true if everyone that's bought into HC is paid for. Then the only new income for lightwave product is those waiting, Like my self.
Also i have no problem waiting another year for this to be pushed out. But only if they really start showing more off. Come on modo 401 was showing off things well over a year before it came out. they even had events with some 401 items.

As for being a troll i don't think so. I mean if that's the case, could you be a troll your self Meg for excessive fanboyism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

hrgiger
01-06-2010, 04:40 AM
Also i have no problem waiting another year for this to be pushed out. But only if they really start showing more off. Come on modo 401 was showing off things well over a year before it came out. they even had events with some 401 items.



The difference here is that Modo gave no expected date of release for 401 so users weren't told how long they would be waiting. This is both good and bad for users. And as far as I know, the only thing shown about 401 that far ahead was showing off the tech for the Nexus platform, not specifically tech that was going to be included in Modo 401. They only showed off Modo 401 features weeks before 401 was revealed. Newtek did the same thing with Lightwave 9 releasing videos in the weeks before release.

If Newtek had not announced CORE a year in advance, all of us would be left with no clue as to when the next version of Lightwave would be released. And then people would be complaining about that too. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for Newtek. But now at least Newtek offers users the option of participating in beta which gives all those who decide to upgrade early a chance to stay informed. Some here seem to be bitter that some users know more then others but sorry, but some of us paid for that benefit.

And the whole fanboy thing is really tiring and overused here. Just because someone doesn't jump on your particular bandwagon, does not mean they don't have their own criticisms of Newtek or Lightwave.

Kuzey
01-06-2010, 05:51 AM
You forget that business does not wait for anyone and NewTek is a business and can not afford to talk forever to finish a project. A project that they've already missed a release date. This is around showing everyone that isn't already a HC member that NewTek can meet targets that NewTek set for themselves. Nobody but Newtek set the 4Q release date and NewTek was the one that missed it. It says much about NewTek's inability to preform and maintain their projects. It's not about the quality of the product that is now in question, but NewTek's teams ability to preform.

Well...I think the market can forgive the time delay, if it means the difference between a standalone app and a half completed one. No one wants to get new software that's actually 3 programs, not one...because it's not complete yet...it will be confusing and seem amateurish.

LW users might not care, but non LW users will see that there's nothing special about a half completed Core1 and will think the same way when it does become a standalone app in V2 or v3. The chance for the greatest impact on the market would have been lost by then.

So Newtek...announce the extension of the Core1 beta program and release videos showing it's current state. I would be extremely happy with that.

Kuzey

SBowie
01-06-2010, 06:46 AM
Nobody but Newtek set the 4Q release date and NewTek was the one that missed it. It says much about NewTek's inability to preform and maintain their projects.Yeah, this is true - and since software from all other developers always arrives rigorously on schedule, NewTek must suck. Oh wait .... :p

Personally, I've always a) expected it to be a little late, because 'stuff happens' the majority of times (for many developers), so why get excited when it happens again, and b) felt that NewTek was short-changing themselves in sticking to the "4th quarter" scenario.

From before I subscribed, I understood my membership would i) last a year (four quarters), and ii) end with the release of 1.0. The membership clock began to run with delivery of the first beta, which was pretty close to the end of Q1 - hence would elapse just about the currently predicted time for a 1.0 release. No surprises for me, no disappointment.

SBowie
01-06-2010, 07:19 AM
You and the others are already bought and paid for.Well, that's an interesting outlook. Some might find it insulting, but let's look at it logically. You're suggesting NewTek somehow bribed the HC members, hence by implication, theirs views are tainted. Yet in the next breath, you are imply the reverse - that NewTek has ripped us off and is 'living off' our money. Hmmmm.


NewTek's been living off your HC money for a year now.Don't be silly. HC membership fees were a drop in the bucket compared to development costs. NewTek would have starved to death many months ago if that were true. It was never about the money. (This conversation has been had a few times, although evidently you were absent - but I'll not bother repeating it, .)


Who's going to invest in HC membership if there are too many more delays.I couldn't care less, frankly. Invest, don't, it's all good. HC memberships aren't funding this effort, they just served as a way to rally a cadre of participants in the process ... and there are plenty of those already. It makes little difference if more join at this point or not.


Are you going to pay for another membership without a finished Core product?I don't need to. I've been promised 1.0, and it's quite clear already that it will exceed my expectations. I'm really more interested in 2.0, but I have to wait for that. In the meantime, I'm quite happy with my investment, just as you seem pleased with your decision ... happy, happy, joy, joy, for both you and me. :)

SBowie
01-06-2010, 07:22 AM
But only if they really start showing more off.Where is anyone in this thread arguing against more being shown?

cresshead
01-06-2010, 07:28 AM
my thought is that the more the release is held off the better that V1.0 of Core will be...i'd be flippin stoked if newtek said it's gonna be relased just after siggraph2010, i really would...to have a few extra month polishing up the tools/workflow and stamping out as many beta bugs as possible.

that would serve well the version 1 release of core as a NEW product it needs to shine as bright as it possibly can and where better than siggraph to do that?

SBowie
01-06-2010, 07:37 AM
that would serve well the version 1 release of core as a NEW product it needs to shine as bright as it possibly can and where better than siggraph to do that?Interesting notion. It would also 'reset' the notional 'integer release calendar' to SIGGRAPH (mid-summer-ish), instead of 'pre-NAB' (mid-winter) ... not a bad scheme.

bobakabob
01-06-2010, 08:27 AM
my thought is that the more the release is held off the better that V1.0 of Core will be...i'd be flippin stoked if newtek said it's gonna be relased just after siggraph2010, i really would...to have a few extra month polishing up the tools/workflow and stamping out as many beta bugs as possible.

that would serve well the version 1 release of core as a NEW product it needs to shine as bright as it possibly can and where better than siggraph to do that?

:agree: What's the rush? Better to deliver a quality product that is more likely to make an impression. For all its flaws, Lightwave is already a pretty capable app for many users.

Soth
01-06-2010, 08:38 AM
Yeah, Say how did the Title 8 thing workout for you and the others - Oooo yeah the California Supreme Court left you guys high & dry. Did I tell you that was going to happen? Did I tell you that the majority would have their say and that it wasn't unconstitutional?

What is he talking about?

geothefaust
01-06-2010, 09:24 AM
He's talking about how he supports homophobic laws. California ballot measure 8 was to legalize marriage between same sex couples.

frantbk
01-06-2010, 09:28 AM
Well, that's an interesting outlook. Some might find it insulting, but let's look at it logically. You're suggesting NewTek somehow bribed the HC members, hence by implication, theirs views are tainted. Yet in the next breath, you are imply the reverse - that NewTek has ripped us off and is 'living off' our money. Hmmmm.

It's always amazing that you and the other come to that conclusion - that you are ripped off, or bribed. When in fact you are already bought and paid for the current R&D with your membership and NewTek knows just how many copies of lightwave with core technology they have to produce to meet their contractual obligation. The question NewTek can't answer is how copies of lightwave with core technology will they be able to sell after its release. That is where the bought and paid for comes from. If you and the other HC members are so sure you're giving NewTek good business advice on holding off on release lightwave with core technolgy - then prove it by buying another membership without a finished product. Put your future money where your mouth is on just how good lightwave with core technology is.


Don't be silly. HC membership fees were a drop in the bucket compared to development costs. NewTek would have starved to death many months ago if that were true. It was never about the money. (This conversation has been had a few times, although evidently you were absent - but I'll not bother repeating it, .)

Yes it was a drop in the bucket, but the interest rate on the bucket is less then it would be if NewTek had just started developing Core without it. The money maybe gone, but the impact it had on start up cost has not.


I couldn't care less, frankly. Invest, don't, it's all good. HC memberships aren't funding this effort, they just served as a way to rally a cadre of participants in the process ... and there are plenty of those already. It makes little difference if more join at this point or not.

It makes a lot of difference. If more join now less will buy after the release. If less buy after the release where not many will see a need to pay $1495.00 for lightwave with core technology. The price then has to be discounted because of a lack of interest in lightwave with core technology.


I don't need to. I've been promised 1.0, and it's quite clear already that it will exceed my expectations. I'm really more interested in 2.0, but I have to wait for that. In the meantime, I'm quite happy with my investment, just as you seem pleased with your decision ... happy, happy, joy, joy, for both you and me. :)


Lightwave with core technology may exceed your expectations, but will it exceed the expectations of those non-HC members waiting to see what NewTek has produced? Your expectation are a zero factor for the success of Lightwave with Core technology at the point of release because NewTek isn't trying to get you to spend money on Lightwave with core technology. You're already bought and paid for. You're just wanting for you product to be delivered. This is why the advice from the HC membership is back for the company. NewTek's fails to deliver in the 1Q of 2010 it doesn't effect you, you've been waiting for deliver of your investment for a year now. Zero impact on the success, or failure of Lightwave with core technologies release with the non-HC members.

frantbk
01-06-2010, 09:34 AM
He's talking about how he supports homophobic laws. California ballot measure 8 was to legalize marriage between same sex couples.


No, He's talking about how California almost lost there right to statehood because the California Supreme Courts first ruling (Giving gays the right to marry) was legally over turned by the right of the people to self govern using prop 8 and in so doing triggered a constitutional issue of how far a states constitution can stray from that of the U.S. Federal constitution.

Mike_RB
01-06-2010, 09:37 AM
And as far as I know, the only thing shown about 401 that far ahead was showing off the tech for the Nexus platform, not specifically tech that was going to be included in Modo 401. They only showed off Modo 401 features weeks before 401 was revealed. Newtek did the same thing with Lightwave 9 releasing videos in the weeks before release.

No. I was making 401 fur renders for siggraph 7 months or so before the reveal pages started.

frantbk
01-06-2010, 09:49 AM
:agree: What's the rush? Better to deliver a quality product that is more likely to make an impression. For all its flaws, Lightwave is already a pretty capable app for many users.

Will it make an impression. Just look at the corporate speak NewTek used in its letter. What was it he said? To better integrate leightwave with core technology into the lightwave community. That bland statement can be seen from many directions. Non-HC members can see that as lightwave still has too many rough spots to compete with the current standard for this type of package. That NewTek hasn't polished leightwave enough and needs the 1Q of 2010 just to meet the current standard.

If this is the case then impressive lightwave with core technology will not be. Sure the first week of its release there will be buzz about, but after that then will see what happens. If NewTek is only working lightwave to compete at the same level as the current packages, then the next question should be, will it be enough to convince non-HC members to switch to lightwave with core technology?

Probably not because the law of averages are against NewTek. The more missed deadlines NewTek misses the greater the expectation of the release current becomes - because of the longer wait. This is why I say it is time to start showing some ligihtwave with core technology to the general public because the expectation of waiting will exceed the impact of any impression Lightwave with core technology will have at its release date.

frantbk
01-06-2010, 09:55 AM
my thought is that the more the release is held off the better that V1.0 of Core will be...i'd be flippin stoked if newtek said it's gonna be relased just after siggraph2010, i really would...to have a few extra month polishing up the tools/workflow and stamping out as many beta bugs as possible.

that would serve well the version 1 release of core as a NEW product it needs to shine as bright as it possibly can and where better than siggraph to do that?

Yeah! Go over to the Nevercenter site and see what happens when you take two years to deliver a 32 bit product. How do you get to the nevercenter forum from their new web page (not that anything is happen at their forum)? Nevercenter has changed its web page twice in the last year. Their web page is better looking now then when they had a large community. That tells me their trying to draw people to a site that nobody is interested in.

csandy
01-06-2010, 10:41 AM
Well when the whole project was first announced it was called lightwave Core. Now the company is said lightwave with core technology. Seems like some of the summer of 09 might have been screwed away with an internal kick-fest on which direction to take.

More likely is that somone at NewTek responsible for legal matters thought long and hard about competing with an established highly-marketed trademark in a similar market - namely the Intel line of CORE processors.

hrgiger
01-06-2010, 11:25 AM
No. I was making 401 fur renders for siggraph 7 months or so before the reveal pages started.

Ok. I thought he may have been referring to the Nexus demonstration which was showing the IPR and presets as well as the render instances.

SBowie
01-06-2010, 11:33 AM
It's always amazing that you and the other come to that conclusion - that you are ripped off, or bribed.Have you considered that maybe it's your choice of words? The point you actually intended to make isn't invalid, but the expression "bought and paid for" is usually used in a pejorative sense:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/18274
http://dogwalkmusings.blogspot.com/2009/12/bought-and-paid-for.html
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=81919
http://www.desmogblog.com/bush-bought-and-paid-for-by-the-coal-industry

Possibly if you gave thought to writing with terminology not commonly used as an insult, less people would find it insulting? (By the way, I am serious - don't mean to be facetious or sarcastic. It seems like buried under the invective, you do have a point or two to argue. If they were presented in less contentious fashion, they might not get lost in all the rhetoric that follows when the emotional temperature is turned up unnecessarily.)


INewTek's fails to deliver in the 1Q of 2010 it doesn't effect you, you've been waiting for deliver of your investment for a year now. Zero impact on the success, or failure of Lightwave with core technologies release with the non-HC members.You asked "Who's going to invest in HC membership if there are too many more delays. Are you going to pay for another membership without a finished Core product?" I replied. No, I'm not. I don't need to. Someone else may, good on them either way.

But really, you seem to have meant to imply LW Core is somehow dependent on further HC membership sales to prop up development. Again, I disagree completely. I could go on to elaborate why, but I've got too much work to do. Suffice to say that I think only a long-term strategy has any hope of making a serious dent in a market that is already heavily committed to other products. What you or I or a thousand other people do in this start-up period is almost irrelevant. NewTek has set themselves on a course, and it is their investment in it and commitment to it - not mine - that will make all the difference. We won't see the real direction this is going to go well enough to predict the outcome confidently for at least 2-4 years, imho. A few months this way or that way may cause a bit of bluster and hand-wringing, but in the end it's much ado about nothing.

Speedmonk42
01-06-2010, 11:50 AM
I just don't get what people are complaining about.

You either pay for the software when it's done, or in this case you can invest in it's development at a discount and have input in it's creation.

The only real consistent complaint I see are people who want the cheap price but skip the participation.

I for one would be useless in that participation, I just don't know enough. But I am excited about it because given the number of amazingly experienced people here who are providing input, I think it's going to be a amazing.

The only concern I have for it's well being is the time factor.

SBowie
01-06-2010, 12:15 PM
I just don't get what people are complaining about.I think most complaints fall into one of the following categories:

I want it sooner, not later. (Impatience, perfectly understandable.)
I want to know more about it sooner rather than later (Perfectly understandable.)
I want it different. (Also somewhat understandable, but maybe a little premature?)
I want it free. (Good luck with that).
I want all of the above, and I want it 6 months ago. (I want a Harley, but I don't have one ... yet). ;)
Newtek sucks, everything they have ever done or ever will do stinks, and everyone here that disagrees with me is either an optimistic fool, a co-conspirator or both. (Why are you here? Do you enjoy our company? Or do you simply enjoy attempting to rile everyone up?)


People feel passionately about their tools, so a little of that is unavoidable .. but it's always nice when they can articulate a point without managing to alienate everyone.

GandB
01-06-2010, 10:04 PM
I too thought there would be much more in the way of videos and images by now; and I too found the lack of any disappointing.

However, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't run anything at NewTek, and NewTek doesn't need my input. So why would I get all upset about it?

I can only hope that they are listening to all the threads/posts about Core, and what's in the works for it...especially since it's in the early stages yet. For example; I always harp on the need to remember the BILLION dollar game industry (I just feel better if I put it in every post I make about Core:D). I don't want to see Autodesk continue to dominate the field into the next decade....does NewTek?

At any rate; I don't have money burning a hole in my pocket (as most don't nowadays), so there's no point in getting bent out of shape over a pretty big lack of updates/videos/images.

When the time comes that I have a good amount of money in my pocket to invest in more 3D Applications, plugins, etc...I'll see if NewTek is finally ready to show us something (in the form of a DEMO that isn't hard to find on the site this time). If not; perhaps I'll wait, perhaps I'll go elsewhere...but I'm just one person. I doubt my not buying Core will hurt much. :thumbsup:

-Keith

frantbk
01-07-2010, 09:28 AM
Have you considered that maybe it's your choice of words? The point you actually intended to make isn't invalid, but the expression "bought and paid for" is usually used in a pejorative sense:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/18274
http://dogwalkmusings.blogspot.com/2009/12/bought-and-paid-for.html
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=81919
http://www.desmogblog.com/bush-bought-and-paid-for-by-the-coal-industry

Possibly if you gave thought to writing with terminology not commonly used as an insult, less people would find it insulting? (By the way, I am serious - don't mean to be facetious or sarcastic. It seems like buried under the invective, you do have a point or two to argue. If they were presented in less contentious fashion, they might not get lost in all the rhetoric that follows when the emotional temperature is turned up unnecessarily.)

Maybe should think about doing something else while you're snowed in. The fact that you are insulted is not much concern to me. Also as rude as people have acted here (myself included) on the NewTek site over the last year[s] giving etiquette advice is laughable.


You asked "Who's going to invest in HC membership if there are too many more delays. Are you going to pay for another membership without a finished Core product?" I replied. No, I'm not. I don't need to. Someone else may, good on them either way.

Once again you've skewered what I've said. I said if you and the other HC members are so sure your advice of wait until the product is perfect, or almost perfect is good for the NewTek & Lightwave with core technology. Then you we demonstrate that with investing in another HC membership without a finished product. If you are not willing to do that then those of us whole haven't invested must look at that an question just how good your advice is. NewTek should be questioning your advice. The problem with your advice of waiting is that you don't have to pay any price if you are wrong. NewTek will pay that cost, and Lightwave with core technology will pay. You, and the other will just walk away - Oooo well I guess I was wrong - what price do you and the other pay for your bad advice?


But really, you seem to have meant to imply LW Core is somehow dependent on further HC membership sales to prop up development. Again, I disagree completely. I could go on to elaborate why, but I've got too much work to do.

It's pretty clear you don't have enough to do because you're moving on after you've decided you can't be wrong with your advice. Lightwave with core technology is dependent on future sales at $1495.00. Lightwave with core technology can't sustain itself without the future sales. The future sales are those that will come after the release of lightwave with core technology. If no product is ever produced, where does the money come from? Also I haven't meant to imply anything that wasn't said. What I said is what I meant. But you can imply all you want - it seems to be the HC membership way of handling idea's that you can't grasp.



Suffice to say that I think only a long-term strategy has any hope of making a serious dent in a market that is already heavily committed to other products. What you or I or a thousand other people do in this start-up period is almost irrelevant.

What have you been smoking? Irrelevant? A 100, or a 1000 copies of lightwave with core technology not being sold would have no impact on the success of lightwave's release. Ok now I know you're tap-dancing.


NewTek has set themselves on a course, and it is their investment in it and commitment to it - not mine - that will make all the difference. We won't see the real direction this is going to go well enough to predict the outcome confidently for at least 2-4 years, imho. A few months this way or that way may cause a bit of bluster and hand-wringing, but in the end it's much ado about nothing.

NewTek maybe a privately own company, but they still have to make money to have a product line. Without the end users investment their investment can't sustain itself over time. Talk about bluster, have you smelled the stuff you are shoveling these days?

csandy
01-07-2010, 09:38 AM
Pejorative... Invective.... and a reference to CFP! As an expat Canuck I'm so proud the Canadian school system has produced such fine results!

Funny enough, I've been lolligagging on CORE. I just got onto the forum yesterday and I haven't installed anything yet - though I've had a CORE membership since summer of last year. I've been too busy with the hardware....


Have you considered that maybe it's your choice of words? The point you actually intended to make isn't invalid, but the expression "bought and paid for" is usually used in a pejorative sense:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/18274
http://dogwalkmusings.blogspot.com/2009/12/bought-and-paid-for.html
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=81919
http://www.desmogblog.com/bush-bought-and-paid-for-by-the-coal-industry

Possibly if you gave thought to writing with terminology not commonly used as an insult, less people would find it insulting? (By the way, I am serious - don't mean to be facetious or sarcastic. It seems like buried under the invective, you do have a point or two to argue. If they were presented in less contentious fashion, they might not get lost in all the rhetoric that follows when the emotional temperature is turned up unnecessarily.)

You asked "Who's going to invest in HC membership if there are too many more delays. Are you going to pay for another membership without a finished Core product?" I replied. No, I'm not. I don't need to. Someone else may, good on them either way.

But really, you seem to have meant to imply LW Core is somehow dependent on further HC membership sales to prop up development. Again, I disagree completely. I could go on to elaborate why, but I've got too much work to do. Suffice to say that I think only a long-term strategy has any hope of making a serious dent in a market that is already heavily committed to other products. What you or I or a thousand other people do in this start-up period is almost irrelevant. NewTek has set themselves on a course, and it is their investment in it and commitment to it - not mine - that will make all the difference. We won't see the real direction this is going to go well enough to predict the outcome confidently for at least 2-4 years, imho. A few months this way or that way may cause a bit of bluster and hand-wringing, but in the end it's much ado about nothing.

Kuzey
01-07-2010, 10:02 AM
Once again you've skewered what I've said. I said if you and the other HC members are so sure your advice of wait until the product is perfect, or almost perfect is good for the NewTek & Lightwave with core technology. Then you we demonstrate that with investing in another HC membership without a finished product. If you are not willing to do that then those of us whole haven't invested must look at that an question just how good your advice is. NewTek should be questioning your advice. The problem with your advice of waiting is that you don't have to pay any price if you are wrong. NewTek will pay that cost, and Lightwave with core technology will pay. You, and the other will just walk away - Oooo well I guess I was wrong - what price do you and the other pay for your bad advice?


People who payed for Core1 will get Core1...no matter how delayed it is. So there will be a final product...it will be delayed but it won't cost anybody a cent more.

Or, are you saying people should buy another seat of Core1 at this early stage...just to support Newtek. Why should people do that if they already have access to it??


Kuzey

SBowie
01-07-2010, 10:18 AM
The fact that you are insulted is not much concern to me.You expressed surprise that people keep misunderstanding you on a specific point. I explained why that happens. That you aren't concerned matters not a whit to me. I was under the impression you were trying to convey a point, and by your own admission not getting it across. Perhaps all those who misunderstand you when you keep stating things the same ineffectual way are just stupid. That's probably it.


Also as rude as people have acted here (myself included) on the NewTek site over the last year[s] giving etiquette advice is laughable.Yes, let's throw good manners out the window, because many others have done that. That will do a lot to bring about effective communication.


... if you and the other HC members are so sure your advice of wait until the product is perfect.I'm not giving you advice. Buy, don't buy, stick around, take a hike - it's up to you.


Lightwave with core technology can't sustain itself without the future sales.Certainly. We're agreed on that. At the end of the day, if the investment doesn't result in black ink, it will be a failure.

But 100, or yes 1000 copies in the short term isn't going to make it or break it. Even if NewTek did push for a lot of sales right now, critics would be complaining about them flogging vaporware to unsuspecting sheep. The fact that they aren't doing that substantiates my point. Core will succeed if it is well crafted, and - in the fullness of time, when it's ready - well marketed, and it will take time to make significant inroads in the market. It's hard for me to accept than anyone with half a wit can't see that. Making you, anyone else, or everyone else happy in the next year or so is a very trivial part of that.

Oh, btw - there's no snow in my yard, and I don't smoke.

frantbk
01-07-2010, 08:43 PM
People who payed for Core1 will get Core1...no matter how delayed it is. So there will be a final product...it will be delayed but it won't cost anybody a cent more.

Or, are you saying people should buy another seat of Core1 at this early stage...just to support Newtek. Why should people do that if they already have access to it??
Kuzey

If you have to ask what is being asked of you, then you've missed the who point. I can't help you.

cgisoul
01-07-2010, 09:04 PM
G.... people, it's just a software. So much fuzz for a software??? Sigh...

frantbk
01-07-2010, 09:09 PM
You expressed surprise that people keep misunderstanding you on a specific point. I explained why that happens. That you aren't concerned matters not a whit to me. I was under the impression you were trying to convey a point, and by your own admission not getting it across. Perhaps all those who misunderstand you when you keep stating things the same ineffectual way are just stupid. That's probably it.

Or I'm talking to stupid and I keep forgetting that crayons and coloring books are need as visual aids here. Lets also go back to you expending a post explaining what you think I implied when you read my post. Life must be hard on you because you spend so much time thinking about what someone is implying then just listening to what they've said. If you would listen maybe you and the others wouldn't be so insulted? This is probably a wasted post because you are now trying to out think me, and figure out what I'm implying with the posting. Let me help you out here. The mind set of the HC membership:
Stick and stones may break there bones, but words will make them hissy.


Yes, let's throw good manners out the window, because many others have done that. That will do a lot to bring about effective communication.

Butch-up there Sally-Jean. Telling you, you are bought and paid for doesn't come close to bad manners. Bad manners is someone wasting their time posting a bunch of links about manners. The fact is you and the others are the bought and paid for customers. The fact that is has to be explained to you at the level of a 3 year old so you won't cry is the really sad part.


I'm not giving you advice. Buy, don't buy, stick around, take a hike - it's up to you.

Which has nothing to do with what has been said. The HC members are a zero factor for the release of lightwave with core technology and here you are hissing about buy, don't buy, stick around, take a hike. NewTek is listening to you? Weell I'm already two for two, so I guess I'll have to be happy with being three for three when lightwave with core technology is release.


Certainly. We're agreed on that. At the end of the day, if the investment doesn't result in black ink, it will be a failure.

No, the whole point is avoiding failure. Where are my crayon's and coloring books? Do I have a decade to waste on this?


everyone [/I]else happy in the next year or so is a very trivial part of that.

It will succeed if it is well crafted? If nobody cares and nobody is interested in changing from their current software package because lightwave is only equal to the current standard - success isn't likely. The fullness of time is stupid talk. This industry is shrinking and the price NewTek is asking for lightwave with core technology is over priced. Lightwave with core technology can limp along for year, but it will limp along at $895.00 or less.

I'm already two for two, so three for three will not bother me, or anyone else. If new NewTek miss the 1Q 2010 release date pretty much means I'll be three for three when the release is a bust because of the law of average that will be four for four, and when the price is dropped down to $895.00 because of the flop I'll be five for five. That's not trivial.


Oh, btw - there's no snow in my yard, and I don't smoke.

Then you really don't have enough work to keep you busy.

csandy
01-07-2010, 09:40 PM
What's this thread about again? Seems to me the seminal question (where Core be at? [sic]) has been asked and answered.

I just got onto the CORE forum way down at the bottom of the board there and I was hoping to find some insightful discourse here dontcha know.

Instead I find a very entertaining thread that reads like an on-line version of Reality TV.

cgisoul
01-07-2010, 09:43 PM
Where Core be at?
Anyone?

csandy
01-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Where Core be at?
Anyone?

LOL. Yes. Truly entertaining. Useless, but entertaining.

hazmat777
01-07-2010, 11:55 PM
Even if NewTek did push for a lot of sales right now, critics would be complaining about them flogging vaporware to unsuspecting sheep. The fact that they aren't doing that substantiates my point. Core will succeed if it is well crafted, and - in the fullness of time, when it's ready - well marketed, and it will take time to make significant inroads in the market. It's hard for me to accept than anyone with half a wit can't see that. Making you, anyone else, or everyone else happy in the next year or so is a very trivial part of that.

Oh, btw - there's no snow in my yard, and I don't smoke.

Nice post. For the short term I'm switching to a netbook with Blender to hone my CA skills while at 'work'. You don't always need the latest and greatest to move forward. I don't regret a cent I've spent on LW or it's 'helper' programs though.:)

SBowie
01-08-2010, 05:47 AM
The fact that is has to be explained to you at the level of a 3 year old so you won't cry is the really sad part.I'm probably the happiest guy around, but thanks for thinking of me. If you really stretch your reading skills and look above, you'll observe I've never indicated that *I* am insulted. I just explained to you - since you expressed amazement that people keep misinterpreting you - why this happens (i.e., your use of phrasing that implies an insult, which generally will earn a negative reaction instead of a hearing ear). Evidently you are still struggling with comprehension, but don't give up.

As I've said, you do seem to have a point or two. I might or might not agree with a specific point or the framework you build on it, but your manner of expressing it makes it quite unlikely anyone (apart from a small minority who already agree with you) will even give it any consideration. Pity.


Lightwave with core technology can limp along for year, but it will limp along at $895.00 or less.

I truly hope I remember this discussion in a couple of years so we can compare notes.


Then you really don't have enough work to keep you busy.Oh, I'm quite busy - but I am a gentle soul who can always make time to help out an elderly lady crossing the street, a kid whose kite is caught in a tee, or someone who is struggling because their communication skills have not progressed from the kindergarten sandbox. It's really no trouble, and kindness is its own reward. :)

Kuzey
01-08-2010, 06:12 AM
If you have to ask what is being asked of you, then you've missed the who point. I can't help you.

Well..I guess that's good news for me then.

The subscription model has it's cons and benefits...I guess. You get a new version every year, instead of waiting 2 to 2.5 years with the old model. That would/should mean faster development...but that also means more bugs will be introduced to get the thing out on time and less beta testing time to catch them.

We'll have to see how that pans out.

Kuzey

SBowie
01-08-2010, 06:13 AM
Steve, you are really wasting your time here. THIS... is exactly how frantbk is. He runs round and round and cannot express himself.Well, hope springs eternal, I've still got the tattered remnants of my youth, and pixels are inexpensive.

I'm an optimist, and always hope that someone who has a case to present can find a way to do so effectively, and in keeping with the fact that we are all guests in this forum. As such, it's appropriate to act with the same decorum we would bring to someone's home when visiting. If we find that impossible, we might just as well leave the party - before we are asked to by the hosts.

I think most here would agree that criticism is not a bad thing - quite the contrary. However an overly combative approach to criticism naturally and quickly results in extreme polarisation, with a net effect below zero. Someone who says, "I really think they ought to do x, and here's why" may be listened too. The person who says "They should do x, but they won't because they are all complete idiots, always have and always will be" inevetably demonstrates one of two things: either they need help learning how to communicate like an adult, or they are on one of those sad and lonely ego trips validated by trying to put down the rest of the human race - the post-adolescent variant of 'acting out'.

Anyway, this all said, it's true this 'friendly banter' might weary some who came here because they saw the thread title and had an actual interest in Core's status. The answer to that question can be found in the first couple posts, and that might be a good place to stop reading.

Kuzey
01-08-2010, 06:32 AM
2. I want to know more about it sooner rather than later (Perfectly understandable.)

I just have to change that to:

2. I want to know more when it's pretty much promised...not left hanging when it doesn't appear (Perfectly understandable.)

:hey:

The funny thing is, Newtek says news/videos are coming in a few weeks and then go mute when the time comes. They just have to say that the information has become redundant etc....and they hope to get something out when it's ready.

:D

Kuzey

SBowie
01-08-2010, 06:49 AM
2. I want to know more when it's pretty much promised...not left hanging when it doesn't appear (Perfectly understandable.)
:hey:Thanks, you make my point. Criticism can be offered in a way that makes it more likely to be listened to.

As I said earlier (and as I think you both know and demonstrate), most of the HC members are not small-minded individuals jealously guarding their secret rites and lore. Some act as if it's a secret club they've not been invited into, but we're not 10 years old anymore. 'Membership has its privileges', but generally, afaics, HC members would be as pleased as anyone for a little more frequent 'bursts of light' in public. The release of a rather comprehensive 1.0 feature list a few weeks back was great, but I think more 'official leaks' would be welcomed by the majority.

Kuzey
01-08-2010, 07:08 AM
Thanks, you make my point. Criticism can be offered in a way that makes it more likely to be listened to.

As I said earlier (and as I think you both know and demonstrate), most of the HC members are not small-minded individuals jealously guarding their secret rites and lore. Some act as if it's a secret club they've not been invited into, but we're not 10 years old anymore. 'Membership has its privileges', but generally, afaics, HC members would be as pleased as anyone for a little more frequent 'bursts of light' in public. The release of a rather comprehensive 1.0 feature list a few weeks back was great, but I think more 'official leaks' would not be unreasonable.

I never seen it that way either...the secret club thing.

I'm more or less interested in what Newtek plans to show but does not for any number of reasons. They should just say things have changed and we can't show them at this moment...not ignore the fact they did say it.

I can imagine why they didn't show it, they want the tools to be more polished or got a better idea and are going in a new direction etc etc. That's not the issue, it's saying something and then not updating people on the situation, it can lead to resentment in non HC members..it's not good for anyone.

If I remember correctly...we should be seeing a video by Matt any day now...on linear workflow, but that's more LWHC rather than Core1 features :D

Kuzey

SBowie
01-08-2010, 07:26 AM
I never seen it that way either...the secret club thing.I don't think most do. Certainly those who are HC members know passionate discussion of pros and cons is not restricted to the public forums. It's just one of those things a few like to use to stir up arguments.

IMI
01-08-2010, 01:40 PM
The release of a rather comprehensive 1.0 feature list a few weeks back was great, but I think more 'official leaks' would not be unreasonable.

Frankly, I'm surprised some of the HC people haven't just come out talking explicitly about Core - what it has, what it doesn't have, what's soon-to-be, what's fixed, what's broken...screenshots, videos, and all of that.

They don't have a real NDA after all, just a request that they don't reveal anything past what NT officially wants revealed.
I'm not saying they should, just that I'm surprised, people being people and all - I would have expected at least one person to spill the beans by now and launch his own Core "reveal", even anonymously.

SBowie
01-08-2010, 01:53 PM
They don't have a real NDA after all, just a request that they don't reveal anything past what NT officially wants revealedIt is rather impressive that a group has by and large been very good about respecting the 'good faith arrangement' (as Jay recently described it).

Kuzey
01-08-2010, 03:11 PM
Another thing that is missing...is the Core gallery. Usually, at this (late) stage in development, one pops up so people can post their Core creations in :D

Kuzey

Soth
01-08-2010, 05:12 PM
No, He's talking about how California almost lost there right to statehood because the California Supreme Courts first ruling (Giving gays the right to marry) was legally over turned by the right of the people to self govern using prop 8 and in so doing triggered a constitutional issue of how far a states constitution can stray from that of the U.S. Federal constitution.
Ergo: Christians does not like LightWave with CORE technology.

frantbk
01-09-2010, 01:38 PM
I'm probably the happiest guy around, but thanks for thinking of me.

You are welcome (Woow there is a word I haven't used in a long time :ohmy:)


If you really stretch your reading skills and look above, you'll observe I've never indicated that *I* am insulted.

Nooo, you are not insulted. You've spent how much time discussing one of the most meaningless topics on the NewTek forum - good manners. Sally-Jean you are insulted and this is not what I meant by butch up .

I just explained to you - since you expressed amazement that people keep misinterpreting you - why this happens (i.e., your use of phrasing that implies an insult, which generally will earn a negative reaction instead of a hearing ear). Evidently you are still struggling with comprehension, but don't give up.

If anyone needs to stretch their reading skills it is you. If you go an re-read that post you'll find that no such statement was made. What was said is that it is amazing that when HC members have several options in front of them. That you always pick the option to be insulted. That is what was said. You need to stop implying what does not exist.


As I've said, you do seem to have a point or two. I might or might not agree with a specific point or the framework you build on it, but your manner of expressing it makes it quite unlikely anyone (apart from a small minority who already agree with you) will even give it any consideration. Pity.

Which is the standard of the HC membership and NewTek. Do you really think Jim Plant and Jay Roth will change their direction at this late date in lightwave development? Their physical actions since the launch of lightwave with core technology (back then referred to as lightwave core) demonstrate that they are unwilling to change. Add all of the complaints from the non-Hc members since the March release, and all of the complaint by HC members at other forums (during the summer of 09) add to this the missed 4Q quarter release. What do you have? A company and group membership that isn't willing to change. NewTek has demonstrated bad manners since the March launch of Lightwave with core technology. NewTek willing segregated their community into two groups. One they sometimes listen too because of money and the other group NewTek doesn't care about because they will not spend money. Talk about the worst manners of all.


Oh, I'm quite busy - but I am a gentle soul who can always make time to help out an elderly lady crossing the street, a kid whose kite is caught in a tee, or someone who is struggling because their communication skills have not progressed from the kindergarten sandbox. It's really no trouble, and kindness is its own reward. :)

Yet, you choose instead to have your behind planted in a chair posting on the net instead of doing good community work in your local neighborhood.

SBowie
01-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Nooo, you are not insulted. You've spent how much time discussing one of the most meaningless topics on the NewTek forum - good manners. Sally-Jean you are insulted and this is not what I meant by butch up .And yet you're keeping pace nicely, aren't you. That's swell, really. :)

(As for being insulted, I haven't had this much fun with so little effort in months.)


If you go an re-read that post you'll find that no such statement was made. What was said is that it is amazing that when HC members have several options in front of them. That you always pick the option to be insulted. That is what was said. You need to stop implying what does not exist.Here is exactly what you wrote, which demonstrates my point nicely: "It's always amazing that you and the other come to that conclusion - that you are ripped off, or bribed." You expressed amazement, without qualification, nothing about options. That's a valiant effort at re-spinning it , though. Reminds me of Nixon's last days in office when the Press Secretary, caught in a bold-faced prevarication, would respond "The former statement is no longer operative." I'll give you a B- just for the effort, and the trip down memory lane. :)


Yet, you choose instead to have your behind planted in a chair posting on the net instead of doing good community work in your local neighborhood.Actually, I just got in ... long day. As it happens, I began my Saturday with a morning spent in community volunteer work, then took my wife to a movie. I hope yours was as fruitful as mine was. Thoughtful of you to be concerned about my schedule, though. Looking forward to chatting again, bfn.

frantbk
01-09-2010, 07:31 PM
Here is exactly what you wrote, which demonstrates my point nicely: "It's always amazing that you and the other come to that conclusion - that you are ripped off, or bribed." You expressed amazement, without qualification, nothing about options. That's a valiant effort at re-spinning it , though. Reminds me of Nixon's last days in office when the Press Secretary, caught in a bold-faced prevarication, would respond "The former statement is no longer operative." I'll give you a B- just for the effort, and the trip down memory lane. :)

Now you're a politician. Paraphrasing is a weak mans game, and your as weak as they come. The posting was and is just as it stand in its whole:

It's always amazing that you and the other come to that conclusion - that you are ripped off, or bribed. When in fact you are already bought and paid for the current R&D with your membership and NewTek knows just how many copies of lightwave with core technology they have to produce to meet their contractual obligation. The question NewTek can't answer is how copies of lightwave with core technology will they be able to sell after its release. That is where the bought and paid for comes from. If you and the other HC members are so sure you're giving NewTek good business advice on holding off on release lightwave with core technolgy - then prove it by buying another membership without a finished product. Put your future money where your mouth is on just how good lightwave with core technology is.

The question is, is this the posting your using to paraphrase. Did you just bunch several post together? because your paraphrasing is sloppy.

On the subject of paraphrasing. You claim to be a person of good manners and etiquette. If that were true. Then why are you breaking the most basic rule of etiquette? The one rule that only a true practitioner of etiquette would never break.


Actually, I just got in ... long day. As it happens, I began my Saturday with a morning spent in community volunteer work, then took my wife to a movie. I hope yours was as fruitful as mine was. Thoughtful of you to be concerned about my schedule, though. Looking forward to chatting again, bfn.

Ah the true rantings of a Grifter. Did you save any babies along the way. Help old people across the street? I do hope you and your wife enjoyed the movie.

SBowie
01-10-2010, 09:15 AM
Now you're a politician. Paraphrasing is a weak mans game, and your as weak as they come. The posting was and is just as it stand in its whole: (snip)Thanks, that was helpful. It's becoming clearer that your communication difficulty involves language skills. This last post helped, because it shows your word comprehension is not as good as you imagine. Here's a definition of the word" paraphrase":


par⋅a⋅phrase
–noun
1. a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.


Paraphrasing is not always malignant, but in any case I pointedly did not paraphrase you. I re-worded nothing. You did paraphrase yourself - rather odd. You re-worded your original statement. I simply corrected your attempt to re-cast what you wrote by supplying a direct quote.

Now, it would be correct to say I only quoted part of what you wrote, though not in any attempt to slant the meaning one way or another. The part I quoted was the relevant bit, and the rest is above for anyone who wants to re-read any other part of it for context.

You have done better to have suggested that I quoted you 'out of context' ... but I suggest that's really the whole problem. The context in your mind is not the one you wrote, nor the one most readers would comprehend from your prose. You used an expression bound to offer offense to someone who knows how the expression is commonly used. The clear implication most reasonable people would draw was that you meant NewTek had "bought and paid" for the HC members - a negative implication. Then you failed to make it clear in the rest of your post (the written context) that what you really meant by your rather bizarre use of the phrase was that HC customers had already bought and paid for their merchandise (see, now that - the preceding - is a paraphrase), effectively the reverse of what your words implied.

Eventually, on being challenged and after a post or two, you added sufficient explanation to clear up that point. None of this would have been necessary had you simply stated your point clearly in the first place. The negative connotation right at the outset tended to put others off from really considering what follows, which is apparently something that happens a lot (hence the constant amazement you mentioned).

Clearly, unless you intended to be insulting, your result was not what you were aiming for. The outcome has to be charged to poor wording. The only other possible explanation is that you did intend to be insulting. Unfortunately, that possibility too demonstrates weak communication skills, since it is never an effective method of making a point.

It seems you think it would benefit people to hear your views - otherwise why post them? One way to achieve a better result (actually getting your point across without it being obscured by acrimony) would be to re-read it carefully a few times before hitting send. Ask yourself whether it clearly states and substantiates your point, what questions and/or objections others might reasonably be expected raise. Then consider whether the matter is stated in a way that invites a consideration of your views, or is more likely to cause them to be simply skimmed and trashed because they are presented in a needlessly contentious manner.


Did you save any babies along the way. Help old people across the street? I do hope you and your wife enjoyed the movie.Normally I don't talk about things like charitable works, etc. You raised this matter a couple of posts up, apparently as general purpose mud-slinging since it has nothing to do with any of the sundry matters raised in this thread. I simply answered with truthfully.

(Perhaps you'll notice I am not wasting my time or yours with childish insults and cheap questions about your personal life; but you carry on if you like, it's water off the proverbial duck's back.)

frantbk
01-10-2010, 10:12 AM
Normally I don't talk about things like charitable works, etc. You raised this matter a couple of posts up, apparently as general purpose mud-slinging since it has nothing to do with any of the sundry matters raised in this thread. I simply answered with truthfully.

(Perhaps you'll notice I am not wasting my time or yours with childish insults and cheap questions about your personal life; but you carry on if you like, it's water off the proverbial duck's back.)

ooo baby! The grifter is on the run. Accusations of mud-slinging. I'm not the one who proclaimed to be the practitioner of etiquette and good manners. Therefore because of your proclamation of such high standards this does have meaning to this thread. You proclaimed to do community work. Now you're ashamed of it and don't want anyone to know what kind of community work you preformed yesterday before you took your wife to a movie. I didn't force you to add that information to your thread. You did so freely.

SBowie
01-10-2010, 10:23 AM
Now you're ashamed of it and don't want anyone to know what kind of community work you preformed yesterday before you took your wife to a movie.Unfortunately, your mind reading ability is at roughly the same level as your communication skills. I learned long ago that attempting to divine peoples motivations is a fool's game, and one that contributes to a lot of unnecessary arguments and misunderstandings. Childish insults just add to their length, contributing nothing to whatever actual pros and cons there might be. Whether I volunteered to judge an underwater soap carving contest or performed pro bono brain surgery has nothing to do with NewTek, LW, or HC, etc., and nothing other than simple obfuscation.

It might be useful at this point to attempt to restate your basic points clearly, refraining from completely useless attempts at verbal shock and awe. Or not, as you please.

cgisoul
01-10-2010, 10:40 AM
Would really love to hear some good news about CORE.
Everyone's lips are so tight... ;)

frantbk
01-10-2010, 10:42 AM
Thanks, that was helpful. It's becoming clearer that your communication difficulty involves language skills. This last post helped, because it shows your word comprehension is not as good as you imagine. Here's a definition of the word" paraphrase":

Paraphrasing is not always malignant, but in any case I pointedly did not paraphrase you. I re-worded nothing. You did paraphrase yourself - rather odd. You re-worded your original statement. I simply corrected your attempt to re-cast what you wrote by supplying a direct quote.

Now, it would be correct to say I only quoted part of what you wrote, though not in any attempt to slant the meaning one way or another. The part I quoted was the relevant bit, and the rest is above for anyone who wants to re-read any other part of it for context.

If you did not intend to slant it? Then why was the paragraph a sloppy mess? That paragraph was painful to read because it jumble my statements into with your. If you didn't intend to slant it. Then why, as highly educated as you are, was so sloppy in construction?


You have done better to have suggested that I quoted you 'out of context' ... but I suggest that's really the whole problem. The context in your mind is not the one you wrote, nor the one most readers would comprehend from your prose. You used an expression bound to offer offense to someone who knows how the expression is commonly used. The clear implication most reasonable people would draw was that you meant NewTek had "bought and paid" for the HC members - a negative implication. Then you failed to make it clear in the rest of your post (the written context) that what you really meant by your rather bizarre use of the phrase was that HC customers had already bought and paid for their merchandise (see, now that - the preceding - is a paraphrase), effectively the reverse of what your words implied. [/qoute]

You know of course that this entire paragraph of yours answer the question asked of you. What is the most basic rule of etiquette a true practitioner of etiquette would never break. Your actions clearly show that you are not a person of good manners and etiquette.

So, when did you intend to answer any question put to you? You seem to have a lot of answer for others conduct, but none for your own. The word most fitting for you is - pretentious.

[quote] Eventually, on being challenged and after a post or two, you added sufficient explanation to clear up that point. None of this would have been necessary had you simply stated your point clearly in the first place. The negative connotation right at the outset tended to put others off from really considering what follows, which is apparently something that happens a lot (hence the constant amazement you mentioned).

Arrogant, pretentious, and condescending. The standard of etiquette has never been grander with this new lower standard. Your skills etiquette are impressive. ;D


Clearly, unless you intended to be insulting, your result was not what you were aiming for. The outcome has to be charged to poor wording. The only other possible explanation is that you did intend to be insulting. Unfortunately, that possibility too demonstrates weak communication skills, since it is never an effective method of making a point.

If the skill is so week, then why haven't you walked on. Instead you've spent hours playing a game of one-up-man-ship. You've declared yourself a good mannered person of etiquette, but your action show the same conduct of insult and poor conduct. You and I are alike in conduct. The only difference is you are a Sally-Jean who does all he can to hide his rudeness with Grifter talk of etiquette and good manners. You don't know the first thing of etiquette because you've done nothing but break all the rules with your posting.



It seems you think it would benefit people to hear your views - otherwise why post them? One way to achieve a better result (actually getting your point across without it being obscured by acrimony) would be to re-read it carefully a few times before hitting send. Ask yourself whether it clearly states and substantiates your point, what questions and/or objections others might reasonably be expected raise. Then consider whether the matter is stated in a way that invites a consideration of your views, or is more likely to cause them to be simply skimmed and trashed because they are presented in a needlessly contentious manner.

All the hours that you and the others have spent posting your equally useless views about my post, are the result of good manners and etiquette. The countless post directed at me and towards me through you and the others posting your comments are the product of this groups good manners and etiquette. Do you really expect anyone to believe this pretentious drivel.

You and the other HC members are the new standard in etiquetter. ;D ;D ;D

cgisoul
01-10-2010, 11:01 AM
I don't usually get myself involved or even comment on this kind of arguments among users, but YOU TWO have shown so much un-professionalism among you two and above all, with this community that is beyond anyone's understanding. :thumbsdow You both should really go and find your playground and let the grown ups discuss the main issues here that are more important than flooding this thread with your pathetic and endless childish arguments. You should feel ashamed of yourselves disregarding who's right or wrong.
If none of you have anything more constructive to say, better just be quiet.

Cageman
01-10-2010, 11:01 AM
Just a question...

What are you guys discussing? Frankly speaking, I don't understand what it is that you are arguing. Please make sense or take it via PM instead.

Thanks!

:)

SBowie
01-10-2010, 11:16 AM
If you did not intend to slant it? Then why was the paragraph a sloppy mess? That paragraph was painful to read because it jumble my statements into with your. If you didn't intend to slant it. Then why, as highly educated as you are, was so sloppy in construction?Is English perhaps a second language for you? If so, I offer my sincere admiration. I think it's wonderful to learn more than one language. That would explain a little difficulty communicating, as evidenced in the paragraph above. (While not completely incomprehensible, it is rife with grammatical issues.) Actually, I'd be a little reticent to judge the grammar of others if I had written it.

Normally I'd not remark on such trivia, as I honestly think it's great that we have a multi-national community, and usually a person's meaning manages to come across well enough regardless. In this case though, where communication seems to be an issue, it may be a mitigating factor.


You know of course that this entire paragraph of yours answer the question asked of youIf you intended your thoughts to be directed exclusively to NewTek, you'd have been wise to send an email, or perhaps phone. You chose to post in a public forum, hence one must assume it was meant to be widely read. And, since this is a public forum, your remarks (any and all of them) are open to comment, pro and con. It is a little silly to imagine you can post something provocative (whether intentionally so or not) in a public forum, and then later say "Mind your business" to any who may respond.

SBowie
01-10-2010, 11:44 AM
If none of you have anything more constructive to say, better just be quiet.I'd say almost the same thing. It would be better for someone to be quiet when they cannot learn to say things (pro or con) constructively. As for the rest, imho you can find anything worth reading on the posted topic of this thread in the first 20 or so posts. My advice would to most would be to stop there. After that, it becomes a discussion of whether or not it is useful to heavily lard posts with insulting language (my simple contention is that it isn't).

Since that position is under assault, I defend it - doing so without unprofessional language. (I'm far from perfect, so if you can point me to an unprofessional remark I've made, I'll gladly withdraw it and apologize.) I've yet to see a valid reason given for ceding the field to someone who resorts to endless throwing of sticks and stones. That would be roughly equivalent to adjourning parliament because one member insists on throwing manure instead of discussing the subject. It just empowers those who use those tactics.

hrgiger
01-10-2010, 11:45 AM
Can you guys give it a rest?

SBowie
01-10-2010, 11:52 AM
Can you guys give it a rest?Fine, judging by the last page or so, nothing new is being added anyway.