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meshpig
12-13-2009, 02:22 AM
I think/say this every year as the weather warms here just as the Christmas imagery of snow and reindeers appears sometime in October in shopping malls... silly in any case because the tawdry story originated in the deserts of the middle east?

So, a big "Bah! Humbug" to you all:D

JBT27
12-13-2009, 03:06 AM
I think we already have haven't we?? :D

I'd like to hear, as part of the carol service on Christmas Eve in our cathedral, an intro about how the early Christian church hijacked earlier still 'pagan' festivals, but removed the debauchery etc as they saw fit, and so on.

Historically, it's a farce, iconically it's a con, commercially it's a nightmare, but actually, I like it for reasons that it's just the end of the year, and things wind down and everyone seems to take as much holiday as they can get away with, and, well, just power down. I'd miss it alot if it was actually abandoned, but what I miss now is Christmas as I remember it back in the day ..... but then that's just an age thing and I don't have kids, so there's no big surprise there.

Christmas in Australia? Well, I always wondered about that whole thing, being from up north and naturally acclimatised to Christmas being cold and damp, if not frosty and snowy (which it rarely is these days).

Without getting all tree-huggy and limp-wristed over it, I find I have more time these days for recognition of the solstice, and perhaps more appreciation of what those pre-Christian people were celebrating.

So, err, yeah, bah humbug I guess :D

Julian.

Soth
12-13-2009, 03:20 AM
No, never! I am atheist but I would never argue for killing Christmas... and santa, would you kill Santa? You ba*tard!

Yesterday I went for a walk with my wife and we spot group of Muslims taking pictures of each other with camera facing old dirty and generally ugly bank building... I looked around and if they would face every other direction background of the picture would be filled with million colours Christmas lights or even Christmas tree. I know it was silly feeling but I felt so bad for those poor fellas.

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 04:17 AM
Politics & Religion Gents :):)

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 04:22 AM
No, never! I am atheist but I would never argue for killing Christmas... and santa, would you kill Santa? You ba*tard!

Yesterday I went for a walk with my wife and we spot group of Muslims taking pictures of each other with camera facing old dirty and generally ugly bank building... I looked around and if they would face every other direction background of the picture would be filled with million colours Christmas lights or even Christmas tree. I know it was silly feeling but I felt so bad for those poor fellas.

And the point is ??. If is go to Mecca at the time of the haj i expect to see thousands of Muslims on a pilgrimage and if i want to take pictures there will be some of that in the picture, i accept and have no problem with that. Live and let live, multi culturalism yes, oppression no

Recently Switzerland had a vote in favour of banning minarets on mosques, im sure we dont want to go that way do we.

Like i said Politics & Religion

Soth
12-13-2009, 04:44 AM
And the point is ??

That is the point. I do not know if they feel oppressed, do not like it or they just being silly. There was no point except I wanted to share possibly funny story, but well maybe it was not.

I am similar to those Muslims, it is not my holiday, but on other hand I probably do not share theirs feelings, I like Christmas.

I have no intention to argue, we can talk about Christmas or even religion, for me it will have its dominion in afterlife, if afterlife will last forever which is infinite longer and more important than here arguing it on Earth, makes little sense. We can talk about it, NewTek mods seems do not mind. ;)

JBT27
12-13-2009, 04:57 AM
No, never! I am atheist but I would never argue for killing Christmas... and santa, would you kill Santa? You ba*tard!

Yesterday I went for a walk with my wife and we spot group of Muslims taking pictures of each other with camera facing old dirty and generally ugly bank building... I looked around and if they would face every other direction background of the picture would be filled with million colours Christmas lights or even Christmas tree. I know it was silly feeling but I felt so bad for those poor fellas.

They might have just bought that old bank building ..... it's a stretch, but ..... :)

..... probably not though.

Julian.

meshpig
12-13-2009, 04:57 AM
I
Christmas in Australia? Well, I always wondered about that whole thing, being from up north and naturally acclimatised to Christmas being cold and damp, if not frosty and snowy (which it rarely is these days).



It's rather euphemistically referred to as a "bush" Christmas blowflies 'n all. Only god knows how it ever stuck here but generally speaking what a lot of nonsense.

- I think Coca Cola is responsible for Santa to begin with but here instead of Sherry, a glass of Camel piss will do.

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 05:02 AM
That is the point. I do not know if they feel oppressed, do not like it or they just being silly. There was no point except I wanted to share possibly funny story, but well maybe it was not.

I am similar to those Muslims, it is not my holiday, but on other hand I probably do not share theirs feelings, I like Christmas.

I have no intention to argue, we can talk about Christmas or even religion, for me it will have its dominion in afterlife, if afterlife will last forever which is infinite longer and more important than here arguing it on Earth, makes little sense. We can talk about it, NewTek mods seems do not mind. ;)

No argument here. If they feel oppressed then that's silly, if they don't like it, well sorry but they have to accept it. Christmas is more of a holiday and family get together than a religious thing now.

Im not christian either but this country is founded on a christian belief system for better or worse and that is not likely to change. Many including non christians probably dont want that to change.

If i move to another country i accept their belief systems and way of life, i may not like some aspects of this but i accept it.

If they were tourists, well its only a holiday and they will be leaving, if they live here, they have to put up with it.

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 05:05 AM
It's rather euphemistically referred to as a "bush" Christmas blowflies 'n all. Only god knows how it ever stuck here but generally speaking what a lot of nonsense.

- I think Coca Cola is responsible for Santa to begin with but here instead of Sherry, a glass of Camel piss will do..

Yeah like walmart is responsible for Halloween in the UK, never had this as a festival in the UK until walmart brought out asda, now its everywhere pushed allot by asda.

So which do you prefer hot or cold Christmas

cresshead
12-13-2009, 05:16 AM
i want to bring back the sun god, RA as it's pretty cold here right now!

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/images/mlw_0001_0004_0_img0171.jpg

http://pugetsoundblogs.com/forecasting-kitsap/files/2009/06/1697sunny-day.jpg

Soth
12-13-2009, 05:23 AM
...but, was he at least born from the virgin?

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 05:30 AM
...but, was he at least born from the virgin?

Virgin(g) on the ridiculous :):):)

biliousfrog
12-13-2009, 06:12 AM
.

Yeah like walmart is responsible for Halloween in the UK, never had this as a festival in the UK until walmart brought out asda, now its everywhere pushed allot by asda.



Really? Although I never did it myself I remember kids trick or treating in the 80's, I remember going to hallowe'en parties as a kid and carving pumpkins to put on the door step. When I lived in Yorkshire it was very popular as was Mischief Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischief_night) which preceeded Hallowe'en and is also celebrated in other countries. It's a Celtic festival and has been around a lot longer than Walmart...or the US for that matter. It has become more commercial but mostly because people are too bloody lazy to do anything themselves any more...why spend an hour carving a cool pumpkin when you can buy a plastic one that lasts forever?

I like the sentiment behind christmas but I really dislike the 'Christmas' franchise. I also dislike having a birthday at the end of October and people asking me what I want for christmas while I'm opening my birthday present. TBH if people are going to ask me what I want I'd rather that we all just buy our own presents or choose how we spend our money. Last year some of our family decided to cap all presents at £5 which was much more fun and far less stressful when the credit card bill arrived.

meshpig
12-13-2009, 06:33 AM
.

Yeah like walmart is responsible for Halloween in the UK, never had this as a festival in the UK until walmart brought out asda, now its everywhere pushed allot by asda.

So which do you prefer hot or cold Christmas

Neither hot or cold. Get rid of the damn thing, it's a post industrial nightmare all things considered.

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 07:14 AM
Really? Although I never did it myself I remember kids trick or treating in the 80's, I remember going to hallowe'en parties as a kid and carving pumpkins to put on the door step. When I lived in Yorkshire it was very popular as was Mischief Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischief_night) which preceeded Hallowe'en and is also celebrated in other countries. It's a Celtic festival and has been around a lot longer than Walmart...or the US for that matter. It has become more commercial but mostly because people are too bloody lazy to do anything themselves any more...why spend an hour carving a cool pumpkin when you can buy a plastic one that lasts forever?

I like the sentiment behind christmas but I really dislike the 'Christmas' franchise. I also dislike having a birthday at the end of October and people asking me what I want for christmas while I'm opening my birthday present. TBH if people are going to ask me what I want I'd rather that we all just buy our own presents or choose how we spend our money. Last year some of our family decided to cap all presents at £5 which was much more fun and far less stressful when the credit card bill arrived.

Well i cant speak for Yorkshire, the only one we celebrated down south was Guy Fawkes night. When my children were younger we never took them on Halloween, it was not celebrated and this was in the south west.

Yeah its all hallows night, nothing to do with vampires, ghosts or any other such nonsense. Most of its now commercial, cant wait to see if other religious festivals take off in the UK what walmart will do it them :):).

Johnny
12-13-2009, 07:17 AM
I notice that, so far, posters in this thread are UK/Australian..

As an American who's endured a lifetime of Christmasses in the most overly-ad-blasted culture this side of Rigel 7, I am deep-fried to a crackly crunch on christmas.

the idea is a good one, but the ideas aren't practiced except almost as actors' parts in a play that comes around once a year.

if you don't have money, man, you are SO out of the christmas loop. it puts to a focus whether you are or are not successful by monetary measure, and you just have to love the juxtaposition between the krissmass krap people love to talk about, and, say, yer drive buy shootings, or mass killings, or butchery being carried on around the world in the name of some hoobidie hoo we're all supposed to care about, but which is really a cheap cover for the interests of the rich.

I wouldn't be sad to see xmas as we now endure it vanish, but would be nice to see it receed to what it ought to be, and more practice year round rather than just on those days when people with money get their toys.

J

Chris S. (Fez)
12-13-2009, 08:34 AM
Recently Switzerland had a vote in favour of banning minarets on mosques, im sure we dont want to go that way do we.


I applaud the Swiss for standing against Islamic supremism but a ban on architecture undermines the same Western democratic ideals they seem to hold so dear. Enough said on that subject...

I second the Bah Humbug. So not in the mood for Christmas.

shrox
12-13-2009, 08:44 AM
Careful folks, you don't want this Quaker to write and post a 10 page dissertation about the who, when, where and why of Jesus.

Do you really think I would waste my genius IQ on some silly belief, or has my genius IQ lead me to research rather than dismiss...

By the way, Jesus was born in autumn. Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem to pay taxes, and check in for the census. The people had to pay taxes, so the government wanted your first harvest, to make sure they got paid. By December half your "income" might be gone. The government knew that by waiting until winter, many people just would not be able to physically get there.

I don't celebrate Christmas really, no family now anyway...

OnlineRender
12-13-2009, 09:24 AM
Personally I hate X-mas ,goes back to a kid "phyciloigal proplems I would conclude" but I just hate it , I think its the most overated product branding in the world .Christmas Cards what a complete waste of money and trees , if your lucky you might get an e-card

another thing Santa's Green not Red cheers Cola ...........

since I had 3 kids in the space of 4 years , it does make things alittle bit more fun !

#but its still overhyped .................but I did get Lara a HelloKitty Bike

shrox
12-13-2009, 09:47 AM
I am not defending the modern Christmas, but yet "A Christmas Story" is ideal...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvMLfSQrHKE

JBT27
12-13-2009, 10:49 AM
Careful folks, you don't want this Quaker to write and post a 10 page dissertation about the who, when, where and why of Jesus.

Do you really think I would waste my genius IQ on some silly belief, or has my genius IQ lead me to research rather than dismiss...

By the way, Jesus was born in autumn. Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem to pay taxes, and check in for the census. The people had to pay taxes, so the government wanted your first harvest, to make sure they got paid. By December half your "income" might be gone. The government knew that by waiting until winter, many people just would not be able to physically get there.

I don't celebrate Christmas really, no family now anyway...

Reading any number of the currently available semi-academic books on the Roman Empire, and particularly government, which invariably has alot of this stuff in the context of the Romans as an occupying force/power interacting with the Jewish peoples, etc., it really does put THE story in context of what was happening. As you say, the why and wherefore was just regular life going on. How Jesus and Christianity got adopted and established by the Romans, and ultimately spread into Western Europe and so on, is as much, if not more, a matter of historical understanding than religion and politics.

Hence my whim to see the bishop or dean deliver a sermon at the carol service which basically covers all this genuinely (OK, to me :)) interesting stuff.

.... and yeah, autumn ..... 25th Dec or so is one of the hijacked festivals.

Which is kind of pertinent, because our modern society has effectively hijacked it again and turned it into what it is now. Like it or not.

Julian.

JBT27
12-13-2009, 10:52 AM
I notice that, so far, posters in this thread are UK/Australian..

As an American who's endured a lifetime of Christmasses in the most overly-ad-blasted culture this side of Rigel 7, I am deep-fried to a crackly crunch on christmas.

the idea is a good one, but the ideas aren't practiced except almost as actors' parts in a play that comes around once a year.

if you don't have money, man, you are SO out of the christmas loop. it puts to a focus whether you are or are not successful by monetary measure, and you just have to love the juxtaposition between the krissmass krap people love to talk about, and, say, yer drive buy shootings, or mass killings, or butchery being carried on around the world in the name of some hoobidie hoo we're all supposed to care about, but which is really a cheap cover for the interests of the rich.

I wouldn't be sad to see xmas as we now endure it vanish, but would be nice to see it receed to what it ought to be, and more practice year round rather than just on those days when people with money get their toys.

J

Speaking of which, my nephew is marrying a girl from Albany next summer, and he's there right now for his first American Christmas ..... so he's gone from very small market town England at Christmas, to Albany ..... as the guy's only 18 I guess he'll just take whatever comes. Providing it's not above drive-by shootings, etc.

Happy Christmas :D

Julian.

shrox
12-13-2009, 11:09 AM
...I wouldn't be sad to see xmas as we now endure it vanish, but would be nice to see it receed to what it ought to be, and more practice year round rather than just on those days when people with money get their toys.

J

Did you ever see THX-1138? We exist only to consume.

Intuition
12-13-2009, 11:37 AM
Things inevitably change. Also, no matter how much things change.....etc etc.

I like the current brand of Christmas we have now. Context? Well, the current brand is the kind that we have in America where for the most part the majority of the population is getting ready for some time off with the family. Some go shopping, some go out to eat, some go out in the snow, some go surfing, people give gifts, people receive gifts, some do none of this at all. I could list a whole tome of things people do.

The point is that for myself I see Christmas as much different then when I was a kid in the late 70s early 80s. In my hometown at the catholic church (I am Irish Catholic) the bishop would do sermon in latin and it all was very large and grand seeming to my young mind. Then he would read a few verses on the subjects of the day (events in the news like Reagon getting shot) and he would relate how we could take verses in the bible and try to apply them to our practical lives in this day and age.

Was a really neat experience for a few years of my youth. The church was like one of the oldest buildings in my hometown. Had the old boat arches holding up teh roof and teh stained glass windows. All really neat.

Anyways. I felt there was some real authenticity of the church at the time. Now days I just don't see great characters in religion. They all remind me of that kid in "There Will be Blood" movie. Like its a rockstar job to be a bishop or preacher.

I still like to acknowledge Jesus around Christmas but I don't think it needs to be shoved down people's throats. I also like Jesus for reasons that have to do with what he was trying to say and not because I think he had magical powers that could move mountains and turn water into wine. That stuff doesn't apply to my practical life except for in cases of its possible symbolism.

So I, like an Irish pagan, love putting up my Christmas tree and my 4 leaf clovers and getting iPod for Grandma, Wall-e for my kid and eating good food, beer, and wine in good company. Giving gifts and just being happy that Jesus gave us the golden rule "Treat others as you yourself would be treated", roughly translated. Its a practical way of living.

For those that get lost in the mess of Christmas' shopping, traffic, financial rashness, I feel like they miss the point. Even t hose that get caught up in trying to encapsulate Christmas for the rest of us by putting a new "This is what Christmas really means now" stamp on it. Trying to point out the negatives. Not even saying anything to the OP since I realize his post was tongue in cheek, but in all seriousness when I see the news and the articles in the paper damning capitalism yet again for another year I just giggle and wonder why certain people get hung up over nothing, getting stuck in a mental rut.

Christmas isn't some majority holiday. Its just what some people do, because their parents did it for them when they were kids and they want to recreate the magic for their own kids now.

Please do have happy holidays folks. No matter if its Christmas, or Hanukkah, or kwanzaa, or what ever. Just try to spend time with people you like, and maybe even love, and reflect goodness by treating each other well.

:tongue:

Soth
12-13-2009, 11:43 AM
lovely post ;)

JBT27
12-13-2009, 12:17 PM
Things inevitably change. Also, no matter how much things change.....etc etc.

I like the current brand of Christmas we have now. Context? Well, the current brand is the kind that we have in America where for the most part the majority of the population is getting ready for some time off with the family. Some go shopping, some go out to eat, some go out in the snow, some go surfing, people give gifts, people receive gifts, some do none of this at all. I could list a whole tome of things people do.

The point is that for myself I see Christmas as much different then when I was a kid in the late 70s early 80s. In my hometown at the catholic church (I am Irish Catholic) the bishop would do sermon in latin and it all was very large and grand seeming to my young mind. Then he would read a few verses on the subjects of the day (events in the news like Reagon getting shot) and he would relate how we could take verses in the bible and try to apply them to our practical lives in this day and age.

<snip>

Yes, indeed. Christmas week always ends up just being different. More laid back, going out, deciding that enough is enough for a few days. Whatever.

As I learned and read more of the original times, I cared less and less for the fabrications of Christmas. But it's still that end time, and another beginning for another year, and arbitrary and pseudo though all that is, to a degree, it still marks a time in the year which I enjoy and look forward to, even with no kids and a dwindling family.

And I have no doubt the festival will keep evolving. So, philosophically, humbug for sure on much of the commercialism, but also it's fun and nice to have this celebration to wind down the year.

I couldn't agree more.

Julian.

OnlineRender
12-13-2009, 12:29 PM
I wish it could be x-mas everyday ..........................

I think this year has been a little bit more fun , they "brands" haven't thrown it your face as much ,we are putting our tree up tommorow .

OnlineRender
12-13-2009, 12:45 PM
X-mas isn't about products /presents ,its the time sitting around the table with your family , personally this could be my last x-mas with wifes mother and my step-father "both are terminal "

So its what you do that counts

Skonk
12-13-2009, 12:47 PM
I get 2 weeks off work, paid, that don't come out of my bookable holiday quota....

For that reason, and that reason alone, I like Christmas.

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 12:54 PM
Careful folks, you don't want this Quaker to write and post a 10 page dissertation about the who, when, where and why of Jesus.

Do you really think I would waste my genius IQ on some silly belief, or has my genius IQ lead me to research rather than dismiss...

By the way, Jesus was born in autumn. Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem to pay taxes, and check in for the census. The people had to pay taxes, so the government wanted your first harvest, to make sure they got paid. By December half your "income" might be gone. The government knew that by waiting until winter, many people just would not be able to physically get there.

I don't celebrate Christmas really, no family now anyway...

Down now Shrox :):):)

JohnMarchant
12-13-2009, 12:57 PM
I get 2 weeks off work, paid, that don't come out of my bookable holiday quota....

For that reason, and that reason alone, I like Christmas.

I think that pretty well sums up what allot of people think about christmas, including me.

aidenvfx
12-13-2009, 01:11 PM
I think/say this every year as the weather warms here just as the Christmas imagery of snow and reindeers appears sometime in October in shopping malls... silly in any case because the tawdry story originated in the deserts of the middle east?

So, a big "Bah! Humbug" to you all:D

Well it is -45C right now where I live and we have snow....that make you feel any better :)

OnlineRender
12-13-2009, 01:17 PM
Well it is -45C right now where I live and we have snow....that make you feel any better :)

Its not that bad here yet ,but it might aswell be .
Snow for x-mas they predict (yas)

Took my board out after a year away , the snow was like powder was excellent , my @ss is in agony !

erikals
12-13-2009, 02:05 PM
Jesus said many good things, and some not so very good things (that priests sometimes "forget" happened)

...but who cares, it's a tradition, one that gives hope to some people, Christian or not.
...life could get quite boring if we didn't have these silly little things to do.

mattclary
12-13-2009, 02:41 PM
I wouldn't be sad to see xmas as we now endure it vanish, but would be nice to see it receed to what it ought to be, and more practice year round rather than just on those days when people with money get their toys.


Start with your kids.

Shnoze Shmon
12-13-2009, 07:12 PM
Without getting into the contents of the thread I would like to address the title.

If you have no reason to esteem the day, then don't. Many of us believe in the God of the Bible. That he created all things, that he took on a body of flesh and blood, that he was born of a virgin, that he lived a sinless life, that he died for our sins, that he was buried and rose again the third day, that he was seen by many after his resurrection, that through this we gain forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and that his name is Jesus Christ.

We don't demand you believe this. We don't demand that you honor him. But you have no business interfering with our ability to do so.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-13-2009, 09:29 PM
Without getting into the contents of the thread I would like to address the title.

We don't demand you believe this. We don't demand that you honor him. But you have no business interfering with our ability to do so.

I don't think any of us...well, aside from the initial post perhaps...are actually assailing the religious nature of Christmas. A hyper-commercialized holiday is just a hectic end to an exhausting year. For many it is more accurately Christmas month than Christmas day.

Merry Christmas!
:santa:

jasonwestmas
12-13-2009, 09:41 PM
I don't think I need to be reminded about what I should take Joy in a mere one time a year. Just like I don't think I need I should be reminded how much blood was shed for my freedoms. I think I get it by now.

erikals
12-13-2009, 09:59 PM
just a correction there, Jesus didn't live a sinless life afaik, though at the end of the road became sin free.

anyway, he had some very good points now and then, and i applaud him for that.

Merry Christmas! http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

shrox
12-13-2009, 10:13 PM
just a correction there, Jesus didn't live a sinless life afaik, though at the end of the road became sin free.

anyway, he had some very good points now and then, and i applaud him for that.

Merry Christmas! http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

Yes he did, that's the whole point! He proved it's possible to live a sinless live, we just don't...

What might you be referring to? If you mean getting mad in the temple and chasing out the merchants with a stick, we'll that's just cool...not sin.

JonW
12-13-2009, 10:31 PM
Don’t worry.... Christmas will be over before you know it & we won’t need any reminders. On the 26th the shops will be full of Easter Eggs!


If marketing can solve the limitations on this one we will be having each Christmas & Easter a year or three, or even a decade ahead of their actual dates!

Mike_RB
12-13-2009, 10:55 PM
Christmas to me is about:

Time off from work
Time with family
Gift giving
Food
Nice music with a mythological slant to it
Santa and his reindeer (I have a 3 year old daughter who has pretty much already figured this to be nonsense, she asked me where Santa at the mall parks his reindeer...)
Celebrating the end of longer days with a nice pagan tree
And maybe raising a glass to Issac Newton's Birthday which actually took place on dec 25 in the old style of dating.

This will be my cards next year:
http://www.zazzle.ca/evolution_of_christmas_card-137941267832226570

As Darwin looks remarkably well suited to the red hat and sleigh. And what a good time of year to remind people how large our extended family of cousins is. I get my fair share of angles and magic on cards so I figure it's only fair to share my vision of Christmas with others. :)

Quick question to those of you who have experience in going to mass on Christmas. Does everyone wait around until midnight and have a special moment right when they think the king of king's got that final push out of Mary? Even though the dating for this is ambiguous at best and downright dishonest by the Romans at worst?

meshpig
12-14-2009, 02:37 AM
Well it is -45C right now where I live and we have snow....that make you feel any better :)

Grrrr that's cold... Santa and his mates will be happy!:)

meshpig
12-14-2009, 02:47 AM
Don’t worry.... Christmas will be over before you know it & we won’t need any reminders. On the 26th the shops will be full of Easter Eggs!


If marketing can solve the limitations on this one we will be having each Christmas & Easter a year or three, or even a decade ahead of their actual dates!

Yes, that's the one and it makes you want to puke when the TV stations crank out the few days of obligatory "religious" content.

Surely a secular society doesn't need a holiday which enforces time with the Family?

JohnMarchant
12-14-2009, 02:51 AM
Don’t worry.... Christmas will be over before you know it & we won’t need any reminders. On the 26th the shops will be full of Easter Eggs!


If marketing can solve the limitations on this one we will be having each Christmas & Easter a year or three, or even a decade ahead of their actual dates!

I feel for all those who have young children, mine are grown up so do their own thing. So i get to choose if i want to do anything or not at christmas

shrox
12-14-2009, 08:56 AM
Yes, that's the one and it makes you want to puke when the TV stations crank out the few days of obligatory "religious" content...

Some of them are so off the mark, they're silly. Kind of like an old painting I saw of Adam and Eve, there was a poodle sitting next to them...

robertoortiz
12-14-2009, 09:32 AM
Bah Humbug....

MERRY XMAS GUYS!
(Running away!)
-R

Titus
12-14-2009, 09:38 AM
Happy Festivus!

Eroneouse
12-14-2009, 11:39 AM
Best wishes to you all for the festive season the new year and where ever life takes you. :beerchug:

Stooch
12-14-2009, 04:15 PM
i think christmass is enjoyed on different levels as you grow up.

i dont think it really changed much, we just appreciate different things.

interestingly, i always knew that santa was fake, it was all about the presents. And actually for me it wasnt from santa, it was from grandfather frost. lol.

and his wife is usually smoking hot.

shrox
12-14-2009, 07:44 PM
Notice how civil this thread has been? I feel the love.

meshpig
12-14-2009, 11:29 PM
Some of them are so off the mark, they're silly. Kind of like an old painting I saw of Adam and Eve, there was a poodle sitting next to them...

Especially the epic tales where it all seems to creep into the present tense... with those round faced, bespectacled rather over excited scholars with a vulgar fetish for enunciating phrases from the bible as if colloquial. The height of Kitch really.

meshpig
12-14-2009, 11:59 PM
:agree:

That's a hard one because xmas isn't a matter of ethnic minorities and there never was anything "religious" about xmas even in the equivalents of it in ancient Rome.

At least it appears to me religion and politics are really one and the same thing and neither here nor there that it's also J's birthday.

So, it's disappearance on the secular level would mean zip really because xmas is now what it's always been... a hoax! Humbug.

- As the 2nd century father of Roman Christianity Tertullian put it... "the resurrection is true because impossible":D

colkai
12-15-2009, 02:58 AM
Notice how civil this thread has been? I feel the love.

Hey, holidays approacheth and I've only got 4 days of work leff.
Even after the car deciding to want some work for it's "xmas present" yesterday on my day off! Arrghh.

Still, did I mention, 4 days to go, Woo ...and indeed, Hoo! :D :D

Oh, and only back at work on the 4th of Jan! :D

kyuzo
12-15-2009, 03:26 AM
To me, this time of year is a to mark the winter solstice, look ahead to the coming spring, have a family feast, and give a few gifts to people I care about.

Merry Mithrasmass everybody!

meshpig
12-15-2009, 04:18 AM
To me, this time of year is a to mark the winter solstice, look ahead to the coming spring, have a family feast, and give a few gifts to people I care about.

Merry Mithrasmass everybody!

Good going except it's past spring here and the summer solstice is a week or so away.

- The ancient Persians never knew the southern hemisphere even existed so much for Mithras and Zoroaster:)

colkai
12-15-2009, 05:11 AM
What? you mean there are people South of the equator? :p ;)

Persistant
12-15-2009, 08:51 AM
Wow, This is a tough thread for me to read.
I know, no one forced me, but the title somewhat offended me so I thought I would look into it a little.

I cant Imagine my life without Christmas. It is the time of year my family and I celebrate the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ the son of God. I worship and praise him daily. To think of a world that I would not be able to celebrate his birth is devastating. I know it might not be the exact same day or time of year. I don't think that is the point. It is the time of year that was decided to celebrate His birth.

Actually you could never do away with Christmas. Its a fact, it already happened. If you wish to not celebrate Christmas that's your choice, but you could never do away with it. Christmas is a time of year that Christians celebrate the Birth of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Instead of abandoning Christmas we should celebrate the real reason for Christmas. Jesus Christ died for all our Sins, and offers us eternal life.

Persistant
12-15-2009, 08:58 AM
Wow, This is a tough thread for me to read.
I know, no one forced me, but the title somewhat offended me so I thought I would look into it a little.

I cant Imagine my life without Christmas. It is the time of year my family and I celebrate the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ the son of God. I worship and praise him daily. To think of a world that I would not be able to celebrate his birth is devastating. I know it might not be the exact same day or time of year. I don't think that is the point. It is the time of year that was decided to celebrate His birth.

Actually you could never do away with Christmas. Its a fact, it already happened. If you wish to not celebrate Christmas that's your choice, but you could never do away with it. Christmas is a time of year that Christians celebrate the Birth of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Instead of abandoning Christmas we should celebrate the real reason for Christmas. Jesus Christ was Born Flesh and Blood, ultimately dieing for all Our Sins, and offers us eternal life.

Eroneouse
12-15-2009, 09:07 AM
What? you mean there are people South of the equator? :p ;)

Indeed, everyone south of watford is it not.

Edit - @ Persistant, Jesus dieing for our sins and all that, was that not easter with the resurection. I thought Crimbo was the celebration of his birth.

Persistant
12-15-2009, 09:21 AM
Yes indeed! Christmas is the time we celebrate his Birth. But ultimately he died for the forgiveness of Our Sins. I edited the last post so my wording is a bit clearer.

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 09:30 AM
Yes indeed! Christmas is the time we celebrate his Birth. But ultimately he died for the forgiveness of Our Sins. I edited the last post so my wording is a bit clearer.

Which we can be happy about any time of the year.:jam:

IgnusFast
12-15-2009, 09:35 AM
Just as "Christmas" was originally a number of different winter holidays celebrated by different religions, then co-opted by the monotheists, it has now been "borrowed" from the religious and turned into a commercial holiday. Go capitalism!!

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 09:35 AM
Wow, This is a tough thread for me to read.
I know, no one forced me, but the title somewhat offended me so I thought I would look into it a little.


It doesn't shock you does it? I'm offended on a regular basis. Most of the time I don't let it bother me because ultimately it's not my problem and most of the time I know where I stand.

Persistant
12-15-2009, 09:41 AM
No, I'm not shocked. I just felt I needed to share my thoughts on the subject.

OnlineRender
12-15-2009, 10:47 AM
Trying not to get into religion here ................argh
!X-mas isn't to celebrate the sins of Jesus or God or Joe or anybody , infact historically his birthday isn't even the 25th , the bible "whatever version" is kinda like this forum , words get twisted and lost ,things get added for DRAMA .

for me its family time ,that's it ! `
some people don't even have that !
ohh and has anybody mentioned st-nic "NAH didn't think so "

comm'on you ban christmas you ban all my drinking time .

Persistant
12-15-2009, 10:55 AM
"X-mas isn't to celebrate the sins of Jesus or God or Joe or anybody"

JESUS never sinned.

OnlineRender
12-15-2009, 10:56 AM
"X-mas isn't to celebrate the sins of Jesus or God or Joe or anybody"

JESUS never sinned.

Said WHO ?

Persistant
12-15-2009, 11:15 AM
Me!! :D

Shnoze Shmon
12-15-2009, 11:25 AM
"Jesus never sinned"


Said WHO ?

Said the word of God.
(This point is what the entire Bible revolves around.)

His perfect life is what made him eligible to offer himself for OUR sins. He paid the price for our sins because we can't.

He offers forgiveness as a gift, not to be earned or bought, and we have the choice to accept it or reject it. Our choice is how we choose to spend eternity.

OnlineRender
12-15-2009, 11:25 AM
I would like this thread closed before things get out of hand !
I understand the original posters reasons , but I think things will just get silly ,esp since I'm here :devil:

/\Persistant : Belive what you want and I also understand why you posted a responce I hear Bill Hicks sayin " Forgive Me " .

OnlineRender
12-15-2009, 11:26 AM
Said the word of God.
(This point is what the entire Bible revolves around.)

His perfect life is what made him eligible to offer himself for OUR sins. He paid the price for our sins because we can't.

He offers forgiveness as a gift, not to be earned or bought, and we have the choice to accept it or reject it. Our choice is how we choose to spend eternity.[/QUOTE]



Said WHO ?

This is an easy equation : Religion = Politics = War .........

Andyjaggy
12-15-2009, 11:34 AM
Oh boy here we go.

Your perfectly free to ignore Christmas if you want to, and I'm perfectly free to celebrate it, and we should both try our best not to shove each others beliefs down each others throats. Otherwise we will both choke and die.

Of coarse that is probably too much to ask for on this forum.

colkai
12-15-2009, 11:37 AM
I love how the date he resurrected changes each year, now that IS a miracle. :)
Does that mean I can also shift my birthday each year? So it can always be at a weekend? woo hoo!

ps. this is called humor, religion in threads == very bad. Everyone is entitled to their faith, like marmite, it's fine so long as you don't keep giving it to others.
My friend loves the stuff, >>shudder<< marmite biscuits, marmite cheese >>gag<<

Then again, I likes me Black pudding, even though I know full well what goes into it, heh, humans, go figure! :D

Persistant
12-15-2009, 11:53 AM
Yes, I only wanted to sare my thoughts like others have shared theirs.
I fully understand the right to believe what you want.

We are all created with the right of Free Will.

Tom Wood
12-15-2009, 01:15 PM
Happy Holiday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Holiday)!

BigHache
12-15-2009, 01:25 PM
Dude! That would be awesome to have a birthday on a weekend… every year!




Said WHO ?

This is an easy equation : Religion = Politics = War .........

Well unfortunately the fact that religion has influenced politics, and has led to wars doesn't mean that was the path intended for religion. Like a "Christian" woman I watched on the news yelling about how 'God hates queers', which is not the behavior that is intended for Christians, although some people take it upon themselves to act in that manner and feel it is justified and intended.


I miss watching the Rankin/Bass specials every Christmas. I used to look forward to them, now I just forget about them. :(

shrox
12-15-2009, 01:36 PM
It's funny how people will complain about something "religious", but then feel free to take pot shots at it, and then tell believers to suck it up and stop whining if they complain.

So, everyone. Suck it up!

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 01:36 PM
Well unfortunately the fact that religion has influenced politics, and has led to wars doesn't mean that was the path intended for religion. Like a "Christian" woman I watched on the news yelling about how 'God hates queers', which is not the behavior that is intended for Christians, although some people take it upon themselves to act in that manner and feel it is justified and intended.

I think this christian woman just got her ideas from the Pentateuch, the author's intent being quite clear in places, particularly Leviticus 18:22.

Happy Monkey!

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 01:37 PM
So, everyone. Suck it up!

That's right! When we're talking with words everyone should have a thick skin. It's the sticks and stones that can getcha, just don't pick them up on the wrong day. :)

OnlineRender
12-15-2009, 01:45 PM
theres should be an emotion icon like this on the forumhttp://evolvefish.com/ShirtImages/ShirtImagesSmall/No-Religion-small.gif

RebelHill
12-15-2009, 01:58 PM
This is an easy equation : Religion = Politics = War .........

Ummm... what??

Politics stems from the need of states to organise themselves in a coherent and unified manner... the word coming from the greek "polis", as they were among the first, if not the first to do this on any great, or long lasting scale.

The state by eblarge only came into being in the first place as a product of militarisation... people banded together to form strong defense/offence... so it would be more ocrrect to state that war=politics than the other way round..

Neither really has anything to do with religion... both forming societies, and waging war are just products of human nature.

Religion is a separate entiry entirely, which, whilst having interacted with the others down the ages, has really driven neither.

shrox
12-15-2009, 02:01 PM
theres should be an emotion icon like this on the forumhttp://evolvefish.com/ShirtImages/ShirtImagesSmall/No-Religion-small.gif

Therefore no discussion on art? You'd be cutting away a huge influence on our craft...

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 02:06 PM
Politics are founded on Law, Financial Goals and Standerds. If you have no politics then nothing can be built and protected by law and money; no goals will be met. It would be nice to not need politics, money systems and just trust in the good will and word of mankind, but that kind of trust doesn't exist in any society with or without a "god".

OnlineRender
12-15-2009, 02:28 PM
Therefore no discussion on art? You'd be cutting away a huge influence on our craft...

I never said you should ban it , just have an icon :D

some of the best art (ever) was inspired and commisioned by religion !
Im just saying people believe so strongly in something that they think ther'e correct !

scenergy
12-15-2009, 02:54 PM
The Greatest Story Ever Told, Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9r1yrEs6o

OnlineRender
12-15-2009, 03:11 PM
The Greatest Story Ever Told, Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9r1yrEs6o

That's cool

JBT27
12-15-2009, 03:51 PM
The Greatest Story Ever Told, Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9r1yrEs6o

It's not relevant to the thread but I can't help wondering at the number of times I see a sunrise shot, but the sun is rising in the wrong direction ..... do editors not get out enough to notice how it really works, arty stuff aside?? :D

Julian.

evenflcw
12-15-2009, 04:07 PM
That's cool

What's cool about it? The amount of bullcrap it contains? Considering your aversion towards religious beliefs you finding this any better is puzzling! Unless you just find it entertaining. It's fiction presented as fact for people who don't mind being spoon fed with bullcrap. The same tactics that make people following maniacs into world wars.

Celebrate what the hell you want as long as you don't kill anyone in the process!

scenergy
12-15-2009, 04:32 PM
What's cool about it? The amount of bullcrap it contains? Considering your aversion towards religious beliefs you finding this any better is puzzling! Unless you just find it entertaining. It's fiction presented as fact for people who don't mind being spoon fed with bullcrap. The same tactics that make people following maniacs into world wars.

Celebrate what the hell you want as long as you don't kill anyone in the process!

lol.

So bullcrap and fiction form the basis of your argument.

It will take some time to consider....

Tom Wood
12-15-2009, 04:48 PM
The Greatest Story Ever Told, Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb9r1yrEs6o

Wow! Great stuff. I'd heard bits and pieces of a lot of that but never all in one place. Thanks!

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 04:51 PM
What is fiction? I haven't done any research on the details of the video, but what do you know that is fiction?

I'd say every time the narrator switched from facts about ancient mythological history to inferring connections to current mythology he was making little leaps...

"this is historical fact" and "so that means THIS from current mythology MUST be based on it".

I'm not saying it's all wrong. It's probably mostly on the mark. But it's a little Michael Moore'ish in it's jumping to conclusions without demonstrating HOW we know A is connected to B.

shrox
12-15-2009, 05:26 PM
Instead of just dissing, how about asking questions? Like, just what is Jesus offering to save you from? I know, and I will answer.

evenflcw
12-15-2009, 05:28 PM
I shouldn't have to tell you! The point is to do research for yourself and not blindly believe works that collect and harmonize stories to make them neatly fit together. Just google some of the facts zeitgeist matchmake and you'll likely see they do not match as well as the video claims. Visit pages that focus on a certain subject. Don't use sources that collect one piece here and there and meld it altogether. Just because facts match, doesn't mean the connection is actually there.

For example. Innocent looking page: http://www.touregypt.net/horus.htm

"The principal incident is the death of her son Horus, which took place whilst she was absent in a neighboring city, and was caused by the bite of a scorpion; in spite of all the care which Isis took in hiding her son, a scorpion managed to make its way into the presence of the boy, and it stung him until he died. When Isis came back and found her child's dead body she was distraught and frantic with grief, and was inconsolable until Nephthys came and advised her to appeal to Thoth, the lord of words of power, She did so straightway, and Thoth stopped the Boat of Millions of Years in which Ra, the Sun-god, sailed, and came down to earth in answer to her cry; Thoth had already provided her with the words of power which enabled her to raise up Osiris from the dead, and he now bestowed upon her the means of restoring Horus to life, by supplying her with a series of incantations of irresistible might.

These Isis recited with due care, and in the proper tone of voice, and the poison was made to go forth from the body of Horus, and his strength was renewed, his heart once more occupied its throne, and all was well with him. Heaven and earth rejoiced at the sight of the restoration of the heir of Osiris, and the gods were filled with peace and content. "

He didn't die on a cross (thats what crucifixion means, right?). He didn't resurrect by himself. His mother did it! The witch! And she already did it to someone else. Nothing special about that apparently! Maybe Osiris was Jesus aswell!? And nowhere in the text is his mother described as a virgin. Likely that is fact concieved from her being considered a goddess and gods are seldome described to copulate and give birth like mere mortals. Their gods for Christ sake! It's all just interpretations and Zeitgeist interprets your pants of.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 05:41 PM
Instead of just dissing, how about asking questions? Like, just what is Jesus offering to save you from? I know, and I will answer.

What he offers has nothing to do with the likelihood of the OT/NT/XMAS story being true.

shrox
12-15-2009, 05:43 PM
What he offers has nothing to do with the likelihood of the OT/NT/XMAS story being true.

Absolutely, if you note, I posted that Jesus was born in the autumn.

shrox
12-15-2009, 05:47 PM
Ok, I am going answer anyway...you knew I would.

Jesus is offering to save you from death. You don't get saved from the comfort of your living room, you gave saved from a bad situation. Like drowning, or an out of control fire. You don't need to be saved from swimming at the pool, or roasting hot dogs and marshmallows over a campfire. Well, death is a bad situation.

But what if you yourself conquer death? Make an android and successfully transfer yourself into it, then just keep building new ones when the current one wears out. Or what if you break that physical/energy barrier and become a purely quantum being, like Dr. Manhattan. Or what if your body just keep repairing and maintaining itself, with no end to the process, forever young. Well great, good for you. One thing though. What will you do at the end of the Universe? Your temporal android body will not survive the "Big Crush" at the end. Nor can you quantum body, and nor can it escape, conservation of energy prevents the creation or destruction of energy, and it cannot transfer in or out of our Universe. The very structure of your energy body would collapse into a molasses of indistinguishable resonant strings. And your "immortal flesh and blood got lucky genes" body obviously won't make it through the Crush.

So, basically, Jesus offers to save you from oblivion. We live in a finite, linear, unidirectional existence that we can not escape from. He has a way out and into a place that does not collapse, decay, dissipate or end.

Choose wisely.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 05:50 PM
Choose wisely.

That part sounds good. I agree.

evenflcw
12-15-2009, 05:55 PM
Is it determined what form I will be when Jesus saves me? "From dust to dust". I was, I am, and forever will be ... stardust! Albeit arranged differently. I'm ok with that. Can't ask for more.

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 05:58 PM
He has a way out and into a place that does not collapse, decay, dissipate or end.


Then what?

shrox
12-15-2009, 05:59 PM
On one of the Discovery/NatGeo channels it was said he would have been born in the Spring. So it's pretty much... NO ONE knows for sure. :) All we all do know FOR SURE is that Dec. 25th was originally a pagan holiday and Christians took it over and "blended" their holiday with the pagan holiday and it ended up Christmas. VERY shrewd of the Christians! :thumbsup:


We do know for sure. Does everybody think this happened in a vacuum?! They were in Bethlehem for a census and to pay taxes! A recording of who, where, when and why.

shrox
12-15-2009, 06:08 PM
Which apparently they explained in detail and it was in the Spring.

As I understand it, it was after harvest season in the autumn, since the crops were not ready in the spring. Income came from agriculture, and taxes were paid out of that income, and before you spent it all, the feds wanted their cut.

And the third month of the Julian calender is not the third month of the Hebrew calender.

But, yes, it is not possible know exactly. Not all scribes (record keepers) were fully literate or accurate.

shrox
12-15-2009, 06:09 PM
Then what?

A party! With no bedtime!

Honestly I don't know, but I believe it to be very good. But if it looked like that scene in "Brainstorm", that would be cool.

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 06:10 PM
Then it's playing cards for eternity. :angel:

Eternity is just as impossible to comprehend as trying to work out what being non-existant feels like...

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 06:16 PM
A party! With no bedtime!

Honestly I don't know, but I believe it to be very good. But if it looked like that scene in "Brainstorm", that would be cool.

Sounds great, but since none of my friends or family would be there... :(

(Which scene btw?)

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 06:21 PM
Yeah the party will have to go on without me as I deny the holy spirit. And that's one sin even jc can't ever take for me.

shrox
12-15-2009, 06:29 PM
Sounds great, but since none of my friends or family would be there... :(

(Which scene btw?)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXt0_rD_D2Q

About six minutes in. I have no idea how "accurate" the vision is, but it's sure pretty.

shrox
12-15-2009, 06:30 PM
Yeah the party will have to go on without me as I deny the holy spirit. And that's one sin even jc can't ever take for me.

Why deny such?

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 06:32 PM
Why deny such?

Lack of evidence.

shrox
12-15-2009, 06:33 PM
Lack of evidence.

Show me a boson.

BigHache
12-15-2009, 06:36 PM
I think this christian woman just got her ideas from the Pentateuch, the author's intent being quite clear in places, particularly Leviticus 18:22.

Ah, yeah, but that goes the direction of grabbing one tiny thing and throwing everything else out. Like the bathwater, and the baby. :)

The best reference for timing that I've heard was based around when John the Baptist's mother was pregnant at the same time as Mary. This put the birth around September I think it was. Far enough away to not be December at least.

But my favorite bible hot issues are it never says that Adam bit an apple, nor does it say three wise men. :hey:

shrox
12-15-2009, 06:39 PM
...nor does it say three wise men.

Three kings, and one would think they would have an entourage and guards.

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 06:43 PM
Lack of evidence.

Lack of evidence isn't the problem, it's how both 'sides' choose to interpret the 'evidence' of the other side... the great debate about religion isn't whether it's true or not, but why some people choose to accept the evidence for or against, and some people don't, and neither side can understand why the other can't see their point of view... it's all about interpreting what any particular fact 'means'... and it gets messy...

Tom Wood
12-15-2009, 06:49 PM
The bothersome thing about Christianity is the dishonesty in the implied threat that underlies the advice to use your free will to choose to believe it, but to choose wisely. Meaning, according to the belief system itself, there's really only one choice after all, and all others are condemned. So all the talk about being tolerant of other beliefs is disingenuous, because you can't be both tolerant and condemning at the same time.

I'm agnostic, so I choose not to choose. :question:

shrox
12-15-2009, 06:58 PM
If God is all knowing, could he not then calculate the trajectory and velocity of each particle in the universe, each possible interaction they could have, and thus know the "future", but yet allowing us to have free will?

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:00 PM
Actually... it IS lack of evidence. There are no true surviving records of the ORIGINAL letters that made up the Bible. There are so many inconsistencies and discrepancies that there is no way to know precisely what was originally written. That... and the pick and choose attitudes of those who assemebled these letters... do not allow for any real truth. Check out "Misquoting Jesus" - which is just one of many books that deal with the actual Bible itself. It is utterly amazing how many items have been altered/added/removed from the various documents.

And then of course there is the problem you state as well - interpretation. ANOTHER can of worms. :angel:

Inconveniently true...but true.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:07 PM
I would believe yes. KNOWING the future does not remove the free will of others - at least I would think not.

See newcomb's paradox on the effect on choice of The existance of a predictor.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:10 PM
I am agnostic too. IMO... you cannot KNOW one way or the other, therefore either side is possible. I also agree about the "choice" thing. To me, the choice is like holding a gun to someones head and saying... "Now if you tell me you believe in me, I won't pull this trigger and you will live forever. But if you choose NOT to believe in me... you'll die and be dead forever. But really... you DO have the choice."

Gotta be careful... this is getting into the infamous "Church Thread." :devil:

What sides are you talking about. Talking snake vs flying horse? Father son zombie cannibal vs xenu and his interstellar 737's. :). Or are all of those equally on one side?

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:10 PM
See newcomb's paradox on the effect on choice of The existance of a predictor.

I believe God to be "outside" the universe. It tends to physically deteriorate in his presence...whatever you do, don't look at the light!

I believe his form to be that of a man, but not old, a man in his physical prime, but not flesh and bone.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:13 PM
I believe God to be "outside" the universe. It tends to physically deteriorate in his presence...whatever you do, don't look at the light!

So raiders of the lost arc got it right! :). I like talking with people that are sure enough of thier own views that bantering about it can be done without getting too excited. What do you think of newcomb's paradox?

scenergy
12-15-2009, 07:13 PM
"The Son of God" or "The Sun of God".

hmmm...what would Spock think?

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:15 PM
"The Son of God" or "The Sun of God".

hmmm...what would Spock think?

It was Uhura that caught onto that.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:23 PM
Show me a boson.

The photon is a boson. We can detect a single photon no problem and have been able to for a while (you could even do it for a moderate budget, no LHC size expenditures required).

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:24 PM
So raiders of the lost arc got it right! :). I like talking with people that are sure enough of thier own views that bantering about it can be done without getting too excited. What do you think of newcomb's paradox?

I am not sure. I suppose it could be likened to the endless race. You finish half, then half, then half, but there is always half to finish. There is no real paradox there. Is that correct?

I like this thread, it seems to be keeping itself under control. Must be mature posters.

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:25 PM
The photon is a boson. We can detect a single photon no problem and have been able to for a while (you could even do it for a moderate budget, no LHC size expenditures required).

Actually, a boson is a quanta. We have not yet determined if they have mass, which is the only way it is believed they can be detected.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:32 PM
Actually, a boson is a quanta. We have not yet determined if they have mass, which is the only way it is believed they can be detected.

No, the photon is the gauge boson of electromagnetism. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon look under the heading of physical properties.

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Something I think is VERY interesting, is the inclusion of what appears to typical flying saucers in many religious paintings. Here's a few:

http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/madona2.jpg
http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/crucifixion1350.jpg
http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/tebaide.jpg
http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/magnificat.jpg
http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/maryufo2.jpg

What are these guys playing with?!
http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/eucharist2.jpg

scenergy
12-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Anything is possible and their are infinite possibilities.

Here is a possibility that would be interesting if it were true.


"In 50 years 3d graphics will be indistinguishable from reality.

Humans will create and manage virtual worlds like Gods.

The human race dies out but the machines keep going.

In time, the virtual minions of those worlds develop 3d graphics indistinguishable from reality, lording it over new minions.

-rinse and repeat ad infinitum"


slightly ala Matrix style lol

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:37 PM
No... not really THAT stuff.

Newcomb's paradox is about the effect on your choice if you know there is a predictor. It's not about math. It's pretty interesting.

And regarding afterlife. I think it's safe to assume what happens to chimp brains (or other mammals brains) when they die is the same for us mammals. While I don't rule it out (can't disprove it) I wouldn't give it equal odds as wormfood. It's not 50%-50% just because we don't know *for sure*. There are a lot of things that could be true but can't prove and I wouldn't give any of them odds near to what we *can* see and measure (we can watch cells shut down and start breaking up and eventually be consumed by other microorganisms). So unless Thor has room for cow souls... :)

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 07:42 PM
That's right, caring and sharing is just a figment of my impossible imagination. :)

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:45 PM
Newcomb's paradox is about the effect on your choice if you know there is a predictor. It's not about math. It's pretty interesting.

And regarding afterlife. I think it's safe to assume what happens to chimp brains (or other mammals brains) when they die is the same for us mammals. While I don't rule it out (can't disprove it) I wouldn't give it equal odds as wormfood. It's not 50%-50% just because we don't know *for sure*. There are a lot of things that could be true but can't prove and I wouldn't give any of them odds near to what we *can* see and measure (we can watch cells shut down and start breaking up and eventually be consumed by other microorganisms). So unless Thor has room for cow souls... :)

I believe that we do not have immortal souls, we are merely fabulous machines, that have an electrochemically based consciousness. Brain injury studies pretty much confirm this. Even if the person gets better over time, shouldn't a "soul" be able to fill the gap pretty quickly?

So, if I don't have a soul, how can I believe Jesus? Simple, if I am dead, he will remember me, restore me, and improve me. If I am alive when it happens, I get be one that does not know death, I will be quickened into something that cannot die, decay or falter. If there is something I "covet", or hope to gain, it is that. To not know death.

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 07:49 PM
I believe God to be "outside" the universe

This is a sensible position to take...



I believe his form to be that of a man, but not old, a man in his physical prime, but not flesh and bone.

Odd statement this, do you believe he 'appears' to people as a man or his true form IS actually like a man?

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:51 PM
I believe that we do not have immortal souls, we are merely fabulous machines, that have an electrochemically based consciousness.

Cool, I'm with you 90% of the way there. But I'd put jc being just as likely as xenu and the 737's. And since all these guys are supposed to be jealous (helps keep the meme alive) it might be better to just be an honest skeptic.

I'd say if you want a chance at cheating death it's going to be our hands making that happen. Technology and science being the force for understanding and change that it is. While I don't take a full glass of Tech Singularity koolaid with Kurzweil, I do think it's far more likely than whats in the magic books, considering its just statistical extrapolation. I'll have a shotglass full thanks. :)

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 07:53 PM
What are these guys playing with?!
http://dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/eucharist2.jpg

Looks like the interrogator from Star Wars? Or maybe Sputnik?

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 07:54 PM
I believe that we do not have immortal souls, we are merely fabulous machines, that have an electrochemically based consciousness. Brain injury studies pretty much confirm this. Even if the person gets better over time, shouldn't a "soul" be able to fill the gap pretty quickly?

So, if I don't have a soul, how can I believe Jesus? Simple, if I am dead, he will remember me, restore me, and improve me. If I am alive when it happens, I get be one that does not know death, I will be quickened into something that cannot die, decay or falter. If there is something I "covet", or hope to gain, it is that. To not know death.

Or it may be possible that the body is an extension of the soul and if that extension becomes damaged you are unable to extend certain things from your soul or take things in and interpret them accurately. e.g. brain disease/damage, mental retardation etc.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:55 PM
but YOU say that the odds are not 50-50. You cannot use ANY sicentific evidence one way OR the other to make that assertion. Plain and simple.

Sure, what odds would you give it then? 48%-52%? And is a singular supreme being more or less likely than a pantheon of 666 supreme beings? :)

Newcomb's is about what the chooser does (can do) if he knows a predictor exists. Which a lot of people claim is true. So it is relevant to the question of whether free will is compatible if you (as the chooser) believe in an omnipotent deity (whether or not they actually exist).

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Cool, I'm with you 90% of the way there. But I'd put jc being just as likely as xenu and the 737's. And since all these guys are supposed to be jealous (helps keep the meme alive) it might be better to just be an honest skeptic.

I'd say if you want a chance at cheating death it's going to be our hands making that happen. Technology and science being the force for understanding and change that it is. While I don't take a full glass of Tech Singularity koolaid with Kurzweil, I do think it's far more likely than whats in the magic books, considering its just statistical extrapolation. I'll have a shotglass full thanks. :)

Yes, but if you'll I pointed out earlier, what about the end of the universe? Nothing will survive the Big Crush intact, while the energy will transfer to the new one, any recognizable pattern will be lost in the impossile conditions that mirror the Big Bang.

Or not...

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Looks like the interrogator from Star Wars? Or maybe Sputnik?

I think it's sputnik. That's amazing. I'm convinced! The Soviets must have used this painting for inspiration!

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 07:57 PM
If there is something I "covet", or hope to gain, it is that. To not know death.

Why?

Does it scare you to be non-existant?

shrox
12-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Why?

Does it scare you to be non-existant?

No, it's pride. That I have something special, you know, vanity.

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 07:59 PM
Why?

Does it scare you to be non-existant?

More like depresses me, I like experiencing things.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:00 PM
Yes, but if you'll I pointed out earlier, what about the end of the universe? Nothing will survive the Big Crush intact, while the energy will transfer to the new one, any recognizable pattern will be lost in the impossile conditions that mirror the Big Bang.

True. Unless you take into account an exponential rampant spread of intelligence. Usually the 'us' is left out of cosmological endings. Who knows if by then (if climate change or squabbling over the temple mount doesnt get us 1st) we'll have the mojo to make large scale effects and changes on the universe itself. We've gone from horse to "spacecraft, the internet and the LHC" in 250 years..... Give us a couple million with Kurzweils koolaid and maybe we can figure things out enough to reinflate the balloon.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:01 PM
More like depresses me, I like experiencing things.

It didn't depress me before I was alive... I figure its the same after. :) It's the transition I'm concerned about... those pain receptors can send some nasty messages.

Considering I believe it's the only game in town I plan to keep playing as long as possible.

scenergy
12-15-2009, 08:02 PM
You are assuming that the Big Bang is linear.

What if it is a pulse?

How big is your scientific ruler or telescope?

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:04 PM
Shrox, we cool on the boson topic? Or did you mean something else?

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:04 PM
You are assuming that the Big Bang is linear.

What if it is a pulse?

How big is your scientific ruler or telescope?

Yes, a repeating pulse it how it would appear to an outside observer using our rudimentary 3D temporal framework. Ever notice how as the sun moves through the galaxy, the planets trace out helices like a DNA strand that would be far more complex than ours?

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:09 PM
It doesn't matter. The FACT is... no one KNOWS for certain if there is or is not "a predictor" so therefore it makes your point/Newcombs point moot. It is ASSUMING knowledge where none exists.

We would be the predictor, so I said no real paradox. One is predicting whether there is an influence or not. Or I am missing it.

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 08:10 PM
Yes, but if you'll I pointed out earlier, what about the end of the universe? Nothing will survive the Big Crush intact, while the energy will transfer to the new one, any recognizable pattern will be lost in the impossile conditions that mirror the Big Bang.

Or not...

I think the odds are on for Heat Death rather than a big crush, unless the cosmological constant suddenly changes and the Universe no longer expands geometrically, the Universe will just run down getting colder and colder until there is no energy left to do anything. Long time from now though.

Same result, nothing will survive it.

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:11 PM
If this thread were a bull ride we've gone well past 7 seconds.

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 08:11 PM
It didn't depress me before I was alive... I figure its the same after. :) It's the transition I'm concerned about... those pain receptors can send some nasty messages.

Sure but I already have experienced stuff and something within me wants to keep that and experience more. . .somehow that message was put in my mind and I don't want others to loose what is theirs as well.

In my mind it's just sad if our memory and experiences are taken away from us, an identity is most important. Feels like I would be violated if my identity suddenly ceased to exist. :( I could get my identity taken away at any time if I thought that.

If this sensibility is imaginary and not real then that is all I am, imaginary, no?

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:11 PM
I think the odds are on for Heat Death rather than a big crush, unless the cosmological constant suddenly changes and the Universe no longer expands geometrically, the Universe will just run down getting colder and colder until there is no energy left to do anything. Long time from now though.

Same result, nothing will survive it.

Yes.

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 08:12 PM
It doesn't matter. The FACT is... no one KNOWS for certain if there is or is not "a predictor" so therefore it makes your point/Newcombs point moot. It is ASSUMING knowledge where none exists.

Many Christians know 'for certain' that God exists...

scenergy
12-15-2009, 08:13 PM
What if we are all God?

Not some cranky old bearded mystical man outside of our Universe.

The evidence points to a Universe that is connected with infinite complexity from the shuffling of atoms to the ecosystems of life to the motion of the cosmos.

We are all one.



Nationalism, Monetarism and Religion can only divide us.

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:14 PM
It didn't depress me before I was alive... I figure its the same after. :) It's the transition I'm concerned about... those pain receptors can send some nasty messages.

Considering I believe it's the only game in town I plan to keep playing as long as possible.

I am not really afraid of death, not phobic or anything, but the painful or lingering death, ahh, no thanks.

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 08:14 PM
Oh, btw, in case the whole point gets lost in the noise, Merry Christmas everyone!

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:15 PM
What if we are all God? ..

Not yet, soon, but not yet.

scenergy
12-15-2009, 08:16 PM
Not yet, soon, but not yet.

lol ...i'll wait for you

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:17 PM
No, you said:



God is the predictor.



And since we do not KNOW that there is a predictor, it make the point moot.

I meant am I missing Newcomb's paradox, I don't quite get how that would influence an unknowable choice (the closed box).

evenflcw
12-15-2009, 08:20 PM
Sure, what odds would you give it then? 48%-52%? And is a singular supreme being more or less likely than a pantheon of 666 supreme beings? :)

Newcomb's is about what the chooser does (can do) if he knows a predictor exists. Which a lot of people claim is true. So it is relevant to the question of whether free will is compatible if you (as the chooser) believe in an omnipotent deity (whether or not they actually exist).

Personally I found the newcomb a half-assed attempt at a thought-experiment. It sortof didn't quite work out as initially envisioned.

If we have parallel universes, all outcomes are played out. A deity can predict anything, by allowing everything. A person can be said to act out of free will because all actions are possible and played out.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:20 PM
Precisely. NO ONE can give any "real" odds since no one knows. So... 50/50 is about as realistic as you can get.

How so? 50/50 for unicorns? (we at least know there are horses, so I'd give that one higher odds than invisible powers living 'outside' the universe). See what I mean? All these unknowable propositions aren't equally likely. What about reincarnation? Ghosts? Tarot really working? Reading chicken guts? Flat earth? Just because you can imagine it doesn't make it equally likely existing as it not existing. Are all these 50/50 likely as not?

scenergy
12-15-2009, 08:20 PM
Again... we don't know. Which is why (IMO) it is wiser to be agnostic - someone who does not know FOR SURE. Of course, what you say IS possible - hey, it's the Force. ;) Perhaps we are all just pieces of God - and all of us - the entire universe - makes up God?

It is entirely possible that a supreme being would have uber-senses (sensors) to experience it's creation/existence.

Maybe we are all nerve endings designed to experience and develop God's creation.

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:23 PM
Speaking of apples and hot babes, check this out for the new Battlestar Galactica prequel series Caprica...now don't tell me we are not a bible based society!

http://assets.huluim.com/shows/key_art_caprica.jpg

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:25 PM
Personally I found the newcomb a half-assed attempt at a thought-experiment. It sortof didn't quite work out as initially envisioned.

If we have parallel universes, all outcomes are played out. A deity can predict anything, by allowing everything. A person can be said to act out of free will because all actions are possible and played out.

I believe that God (actually Jehovah, as the Hebrew monotheistic one) ran all the calculations through, and chose only one universe to bring into existence, this one. I admit, it's a very convenient outlook...

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:26 PM
I meant am I missing Newcomb's paradox, I don't quite get how that would influence an unknowable choice (the closed box).

Basically reason (free will) tells you to take both boxes (the predictor is gone and already filled the boxes, so your choice can't effect the contents). But if the 99 people ahead of you chose either both boxes and got a pittance or only the closed one and got the $1,000,000 what do you do.... do yo have free will or not? Believing in a real predictor changes how you behave, causing you to make choices that are based on what you think is 'fate'.

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 08:27 PM
I believe that God (actually Jehovah, as the Hebrew monotheistic one) ran all the calculations through, and chose only one universe to bring into existence, this one. I admit, it's a very convenient outlook...

Yeah, and if we flew a spaceship and reached the end of the universe we would come back into the same universe on the other side.:D

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:28 PM
I believe that God (actually Jehovah, as the Hebrew monotheistic one) ran all the calculations through, and chose only one universe to bring into existence, this one. I admit, it's a very convenient outlook...

Yahweh was one mean sucka. I really hope he's not what those who do believe in this stuff get stuck with for eternity. Seems like an infinite sentence of praise and no bacon.

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:29 PM
Basically reason (free will) tells you to take both boxes (the predictor is gone and already filled the boxes, so your choice can't effect the contents). But if the 99 people ahead of you chose either both boxes and got a pittance or only the closed one and got the $1,000,000 what do you do.... do yo have free will or not? Believing in a real predictor changes how you behave, causing you to make choices that are based on what you think is 'fate'.

Really? I guess I missed the open box part. Can I bring a gun to the test? All the boxes please...

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:30 PM
I asked santa for a new rear wheel for my bike. :) Michelin Pilot road 2. Getting down to the wear bars.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/300/0000_Michelin_Pilot_Road_2_Rear_Tire_--.jpg

scenergy
12-15-2009, 08:32 PM
Religion's are all based on Chinese whispers and suckers buying into afterlife timeshares.


The only thing for certain is 'change'.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:32 PM
Really? I guess I missed the open box part. Can I bring a gun to the test? All the boxes please...

Yeah, there is 2 choices. Both or just the closed. And you can bring a gun all you want. The contents can't change, it's just up to you if you believe the box filling agent can predict your action. I'm pretty sure the show LOST will come down to this paradox in the end. Jack making the choice.

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:34 PM
Yahweh was one mean sucka. I really hope he's not what those who do believe in this stuff get stuck with for eternity. Seems like an infinite sentence of praise and no bacon.


Yahweh is Jesus. And John Stewart of The Daily Show openly admits to eating bacon cheese burgers!

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:36 PM
.. it's just up to you if you believe the box filling agent can predict your action...

Ohh, hadn't though about that.

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 08:38 PM
Religion's are all based on Chinese whispers and suckers buying into afterlife timeshares.


The only thing for certain is 'change'.

Death and Taxes, that's what life is. ;)

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 08:39 PM
Yahweh is Jesus. And John Stewart of The Daily Show openly admits to eating bacon cheese burgers!

Must be neat to be your own son and send yourself on a suicide mission to atone for a 4000 year old crime committed against yourself. And then get people to use magic to change wheat and grapes into your body parts and blood, then get them to eat and drink them to give them a ticket to spend some time with you once they croak according to your plan. Whadda guy! :)

jasonwestmas
12-15-2009, 08:49 PM
Must be neat to be your own son and send yourself on a suicide mission to atone for a 4000 year old crime committed against yourself. And then get people to use magic to change wheat and grapes into your body parts and blood, then get them to eat and drink them to give them a ticket to spend some time with you once they croak according to your plan. Whadda guy! :)

You got the story wrong. . .again. Sheesh ;)

shrox
12-15-2009, 08:51 PM
Must be neat to be your own son and send yourself on a suicide mission to atone for a 4000 year old crime committed against yourself. And then get people to use magic to change wheat and grapes into your body parts and blood, then get them to eat and drink them to give them a ticket to spend some time with you once they croak according to your plan. Whadda guy! :)

You look at it from a mortal point of view. If there is an eternity, it is always occurring, long ago, right now, distant future, it's all occurring in eternity, and perhaps they are the same person in two different places at once, so he would have sent himself there. There are at least two distinct personages, some say three, but I am not sure. Counting the holy spirit as a third seems like labeling my consciousness as separate from me. I could wrong, I was once wrong before...

jameswillmott
12-15-2009, 08:56 PM
...change wheat and grapes into your body parts and blood, then get them to eat and drink them

This is symbolic only, surely?

Tom Wood
12-15-2009, 11:30 PM
Must be neat to be your own son and send yourself on a suicide mission to atone for a 4000 year old crime committed against yourself.

I don't think it's ethical to believe that I can escape responsibility for my actions via the torture and murder of another human being. A cosmic scapegoat. Doing so undermines personal responsibility, upon which all ethics and morality must stand.*

*Plagiarized from Christopher Hitchens (http://fora.tv/2007/10/11/Christopher_Hitchens_Debates_Alister_McGrath) but he says it so well.

Mike_RB
12-15-2009, 11:46 PM
This is symbolic only, surely?

Actually not. The're serious.

jameswillmott
12-16-2009, 12:17 AM
Actually not. The're serious.

Catholics believe it ( or are supposed to according to papal decree ) as do Lutherans, but is it universal? It's a bit disturbing if it is...

Stunt Pixels
12-16-2009, 12:39 AM
Actually not. The're serious.
Does that mean they believe you could take some of the sacrament wine, extract the DNA, and create a clone.... ?

OnlineRender
12-16-2009, 12:43 AM
mwhahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha hahahahhahaha

Did somebody say that video(ytclip) was a conspiricy ........................................

I can't belive some people are trying to counter defend and prove it wrong

mwhahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahhahahhaha

IRONY

P.s Brought up in a strict Roman Cathoilic School in the 80's where they would rather teach you how to say prayers 5 times a day ,than educate you ..
That's right I can't string a sentence together but I can say the Rosery off by heart ...

in the words of Bill Hicks
who would have thunk it !

meshpig
12-16-2009, 01:47 AM
Instead of abandoning Christmas we should celebrate the real reason for Christmas. Jesus Christ died for all our Sins, and offers us eternal life.

Ah yes, forgot about that bit. Funny that "... 'tis the season to be jolly" with such a morbid figure hanging over it?

Besides how can you have a "real reason"? Reason is real and tautology is something modern art did better 100 years ago than religion will ever do:)

OnlineRender
12-16-2009, 02:20 AM
Ah yes, forgot about that bit. Funny that "... 'tis the season to be jolly" with such a morbid figure hanging over it?

Besides how can you have a "real reason"? Reason is real and tautology is something modern art did better 100 years ago than religion will ever do:)

That's kinda scary you posted this thread and posted on the 200th post , maybe you are the devil :devil: :rock:

colkai
12-16-2009, 03:03 AM
It didn't depress me before I was alive... I figure its the same after. :) It's the transition I'm concerned about... those pain receptors can send some nasty messages
As they say, it ain't the fall that kills ya, it's the sudden stop at the end. :p

Personally, I don't buy into the whole religion thing, too many folks making too much money out of religion for me to see it as anything but power-play.

I only get antsy when folks get all "righteous" on me telling me how I NEED to "find Jesus", (gawd, that guy really needs sat-nav, he seems to continually keep getting lost).

I have some very good friends who are major league religious, but they never, ever, ram it down my throat. Wish the same could be said of all those who feel the need to "convert" folks.
How much heritage and custom has been lost through the years because one side of the organised church or the other felt the need to "correct" the "heathens". :(

Faith, now that is a different story, I think everyone has faith in something. Some turn to omnipresent being they turn to when in doubt about anything and trust he is shaping their lives to his great plan. My sister is one of these, well fine, it helped her battle her cancer so it's all good.

Some have faith in what organised religion calls the pagan / old gods, grand, I sorts can dig that, makes sense to have a "head of department" for various things.

Some have faith in their friends, or in other people, some have faith in themselves and trust their own judgment.

Following any faith, be it organised or not, does not preclude one from being a bad person and committing horrible acts.
"God told me to do it", "Satan told me to do it", cop-outs, only we decide if we are going to be good and charitable people, lay the blame at anothers door and you may as well say you only pulled the trigger, someone else supplied the bullets.

Likewise, not following a religion does not preclude one from being a good person who only does good things.

We are judged by our actions, regardless of what we choose to justify them by. This I hold to be true, for me, there is nothing more joyous than seeing the look on the face of someone you help, it's darned addictive!

colkai
12-16-2009, 03:06 AM
get people to use magic to change wheat and grapes into your body parts and blood, then get them to eat and drink them
Wait a minute, so God encourages cannibalism? Guess he's a big Evil Dead fan then! :p

meshpig
12-16-2009, 03:43 AM
That's kinda scary you posted this thread and posted on the 200th post , maybe you are the devil :devil: :rock:

Behold Diablo... :cool:

Chris S. (Fez)
12-16-2009, 03:58 AM
I wonder if we would still be having this discussion if the thread was titled "Isn't it about time we abandoned Eid al-Adha?"

Please consider the question rhetorical.

OnlineRender
12-16-2009, 04:00 AM
I wonder if we would still be having this discussion if the thread was titled "Isn't it about time we abandoned Eid al-Adha?"

Please consider the question rhetorical.

:rock: SILIENCE I KILLLLLLLLLLLL YOU !

-EsHrA-
12-16-2009, 04:29 AM
"You look at it from a mortal point of view."

yes?!.. what other option is there??..


believing in the afterlife is THE most dangerous thing to humanity.

when you think you won the lottery, you will behave rich..


mlon

Chris S. (Fez)
12-16-2009, 04:32 AM
:rock: SILIENCE I KILLLLLLLLLLLL YOU !

Haha.

But seriously, how disturbing is it that it is acceptable to discuss the eccentricities of Christianity but "bigoted" to discuss unseemly aspects of Islam?

OK. OK. I'm done :devil:.

meshpig
12-16-2009, 04:43 AM
Well... the day and the season are not REALLY about that - it's about the BIRTH, not death of Jesus. Not quite as morbid. ;) This was just a way for Persistant to insert his religious belief into the discussion.

That's fine by me, live and let live! But I think we're also all fascinated by how words work online too. I mean "Birth and Death" are like potty training: mucking around in some prefabricated childhood.

colkai
12-16-2009, 04:56 AM
:rock: SILIENCE I KILLLLLLLLLLLL YOU !

Guess who's going to see him at the O2 next year. ;)

JBT27
12-16-2009, 05:14 AM
Haha.

But seriously, how disturbing is it that it is acceptable to discuss the eccentricities of Christianity but "bigoted" to discuss unseemly aspects of Islam?

OK. OK. I'm done :devil:.

Very ..... to even step into this is often perceived as bigotted. It's curious how huge chunks of the christian world will cheerfully poke fun at any and every aspect of itself - you only need to look at some of the Christmas cards to see that.

But then to my mind that's a sign of a very mature outlook. Then again, that statement alone could be bigotted .....

Julian.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2009, 06:50 AM
Catholics believe it ( or are supposed to according to papal decree ) as do Lutherans, but is it universal? It's a bit disturbing if it is...

It's not universal or literal for everyone.

jameswillmott
12-16-2009, 06:57 AM
It's not universal or literal for everyone.

Thanks, that's a relief.

Soth
12-16-2009, 07:10 AM
This will be my cards next year:
http://www.zazzle.ca/evolution_of_christmas_card-137941267832226570


This one can be your 2009's, just fill the form and email it ;)
http://fsmholidays.com/

I know they are not so great but that was quick and silly project. :)

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 07:10 AM
Very ..... to even step into this is often perceived as bigotted. It's curious how huge chunks of the christian world will cheerfully poke fun at any and every aspect of itself - you only need to look at some of the Christmas cards to see that.

But then to my mind that's a sign of a very mature outlook. Then again, that statement alone could be bigotted .....

Julian.

It's because there are so many sects of Christians, they've been through a big reform. If it was still just the catholic priests speaking in Latin with no translated bibles I think we'd be closer to how islam is now.

Soth
12-16-2009, 07:18 AM
It's because there are so many sects of Christians...
30,000

So if someone
feels like does not belong to any of them, here you have free card to send in the email. :)

http://newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80276&stc=1&d=1260973092

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 07:21 AM
I'd love to have one of these for my tree:

http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/fsm_ornament1.png

shrox
12-16-2009, 07:35 AM
I don't think it's ethical to believe that I can escape responsibility for my actions via the torture and murder of another human being. A cosmic scapegoat. Doing so undermines personal responsibility, upon which all ethics and morality must stand.*

*Plagiarized from Christopher Hitchens (http://fora.tv/2007/10/11/Christopher_Hitchens_Debates_Alister_McGrath) but he says it so well.

Then you appear to miss the point. It's not about a free ticket to sin. It's about this. You will fail, someone has made arrangements to rectify that.

shrox
12-16-2009, 07:39 AM
"You look at it from a mortal point of view."

yes?!.. what other option is there??..


believing in the afterlife is THE most dangerous thing to humanity.

when you think you won the lottery, you will behave rich..


mlon

I would consider society in general to be much more dangerous than hoping for something better afterwards...

Soth
12-16-2009, 07:41 AM
Yes, but if you'll I pointed out earlier, what about the end of the universe? Nothing will survive the Big Crush intact, while the energy will transfer to the new one, any recognizable pattern will be lost in the impossile conditions that mirror the Big Bang.

Or not...

Not. Universe will cool itself down and disappear bit by bit in many many black holes.

I like your explanation of the soul, other one (as body being extension of the soul) sounds cheap.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 07:45 AM
Then you appear to miss the point. It's not about a free ticket to sin. It's about this. You will fail, someone has made arrangements to rectify that.

Failing what? The rule maker is atoning for people breaking his rules. A handful of his top ten list happen to overlap with my own personal rules and larger societies laws, but it seems like an awful lot of bother for 'dont steal and don't kill', which I'm not planning on breaking anyway. I choose to trim the edges of my beard, learn from female teachers, not stone my child when she talks back to me and eat bacon with impunity. And for sure I'm not going to be part of a deal where JC got tortured and killed for my behalf because Im somehow am still responsible for 900 year old Adam chompin a mactintosh. (I know he chomped the crunchy apple when he was a youngin)

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0rIY9vzNGMQvTM:http://thenetworkgarden.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/24/applehalo.jpg

shrox
12-16-2009, 07:47 AM
Not. Universe will cool itself down and disappear bit by bit in many many black holes.

The discovery of dark matter seems to lean things in that direction, still the end result is the same, the organized pattern of who we and everything else is will be lost.


I like your explanation of the soul, other one (as body being extension of the soul) sounds cheap.

It's big in New Age, sending your soul out for trip while staying connected by a special golden cord...I don't believe in telepathy, while we might have a receiver, we have no transmitter.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 07:51 AM
The discovery of dark matter

Which might be an illusion if Horava gravity pans out. It seems to be able to explain the apparent extra mass by how gravity works at high energies when clocks become absolute again.

shrox
12-16-2009, 07:52 AM
Failing what? The rule maker is atoning for people breaking his rules. A handful of his top ten list happen to overlap with my own personal rules and larger societies laws, but it seems like an awful lot of bother for 'dont steal and don't kill', which I'm not planning on breaking anyway. I choose to trim the edges of my beard, learn from female teachers, not stone my child when she talks back to me and eat bacon with impunity. And for sure I'm not going to be part of a deal where JC got tortured and killed for my behalf because I somehow am still responsible for 900 year old Adam chompin a mactintosh.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0rIY9vzNGMQvTM:http://thenetworkgarden.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/24/applehalo.jpg

The Old Testament is about rigid rules. That obviously failed, the New Testament is about this, you are unable to follow the rules, so we'll throw them out and start with something better, an individual to show you and help you, A person guiding you is better than a written rule. That would be Jesus.

You say he was tortured and killed on your behalf, can you explain this?

Hey, my sister and her "coven" believe in animal spirits and guides. Is that more palatable?

shrox
12-16-2009, 07:54 AM
Which might be an illusion if Horava gravity pans out. It seems to be able to explain the apparent extra mass by how gravity works at high energies when clocks become absolute again.
Yes, I had read about that, but I have also seen a "map" of dark matter distribution.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 07:56 AM
The Old Testament is about rigid rules. That obviously failed, the New Testament is about this, you are unable to follow the rules, so we'll throw them out and start with something better, an individual to show you and help you, A person guiding you is better than a written rule. That would be Jesus.

You say he was tortured and killed on your behalf, can you explain this?

Hey, my sister and her "coven" believe in animal spirits and guides. Is that more palatable?

At least we know animals exist. :) Its much more likely to be true.

And JC came to fulfill the old law, not throw it out. See Matt 5:18.

I'm saying I want no part of someone torturing and killing themselves FOR me. As that is the central message. I refuse to be part of the collective guilt that lead to the tragic suicide (mission accomplished?) of a fictional character.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Shrox, you would have liked my banter with Jin in the Avatar thread regarding the existential risk of masses moving at relativistic speeds as weapons. Now that you have bosons cleared up maybe we can go back there. :)

Soth
12-16-2009, 08:04 AM
But besides the topic, look guys, all of you, it is again (as always) Europe* vs. U.S.A. cannot we all admit that if God does exist or not is less relevant to what we believe than influence so strongly by our friends, parents and family?

I am from Poland, country where 98% of population suppose to be Catholic... I have 2 friends who believe in god. Couple years ago the count was 3 but she lost her faith... around me only my old aunties left believing...

* EDIT: Looks like I omitted Canada on 'our side' . Sorry Mike! ;)

EDIT2: Sorry I thinnk my first sentendece was not so clear before . :)

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 08:06 AM
it is again (as always) Europe vs. U.S.A.

What, no Canada?

Thanks for the correction... I mean we're only the second largest country in the world.... I can see how you would forget us. :)

Soth
12-16-2009, 08:08 AM
What, no Canada?

fixed, on my defend I want to say that i did my edit before you posted your complain ;)

shrox
12-16-2009, 08:08 AM
Guilt? What did you do?

Jesus didn't not "willing" go to his death. He is said to have sweat blood while he was waiting for them to come for him. The reality of his human existence gave him something he could not have as God, that would be street cred. He's been one of us, went through something very, very few of us will ever know, some of the worst treatment ever publicly shown to a human being. It's about what we are capable of, and there it was for all to see. We are bad people. I don't think I could move beyond that, I would hate humanity forever. But he doesn't.

jameswillmott
12-16-2009, 08:11 AM
What, no Canada?


I don't believe in Canada...

jasonwestmas
12-16-2009, 08:13 AM
The Old Testament is about rigid rules. That obviously failed, the New Testament is about this, you are unable to follow the rules, so we'll throw them out and start with something better, an individual to show you and help you, A person guiding you is better than a written rule. That would be Jesus.

You say he was tortured and killed on your behalf, can you explain this?

Hey, my sister and her "coven" believe in animal spirits and guides. Is that more palatable?

Only the rules (Mosaic Law) aren't thrown out, it's just that the law condemns those who put their faith in the Flesh rather than the Son of God and his Sacrifice. Many believe that the Mosaic Law is a means of salvation putting their faith in their own works. The apostle Paul points out that this isn't the case, that Christ revealed to him that Faith in his shed blood alone is the only means of salvation from the second death. It's called the "No-works unto salvation gospel". The "guiding" part comes in later after the person believes and is saved from the debt and penalty of sin. I would say the Holy Ghost is what guides people since it is the Spirit that indwells Christ.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 08:14 AM
Guilt? What did you do?.

Nothing worth a dad-son god getting killed over. By that's why he came to save us through his suicide mission... To wash away the sin (including the ancestral sin from Adam) for us.

And if hes omniscient and omnipotent he knew it would get him killed and could have blinked and stopped it if he wanted. (In fact he has a plan for everyone, including the executioners). So I can't see how it was anything but a suicide mission (other than he didn't die....). Seems like all he accomplished was getting the Jews branded as Christ killers for a couple millennium.

Soth
12-16-2009, 08:15 AM
I would hate humanity forever. But he doesn't.

I would too but look we are getting better so rapidly, shame it statetd recently, but, mate, in just recent 50 years we made good progress. That is the hope for the future.

Soth
12-16-2009, 08:17 AM
(including the ancestral sin from Adam)


Luckly for us sin of incest of theirs childern was quickly forgotten. :)

shrox
12-16-2009, 08:17 AM
Only the rules (Mosaic Law) aren't thrown out, it's just that the law condemns those who put their faith in the Flesh rather than the Son of God and his Sacrifice. Many believe that the Mosaic Law is a means of salvation putting their faith in their own works. The apostle Paul points out that this isn't the case, that Christ revealed to him that Faith in his shed blood alone is the only means of salvation from the second death. It's called the "No-works unto salvation gospel". The "guiding" part comes in later after the person believes and is saved from the debt and penalty of sin. I would say the Holy Ghost is what guides people since it is the Spirit that indwells Christ.

True, the law is not discarded. I was more referring to Old Israel and their strict adherence to the law, yet many were corrupt (whitewashed tombs, pristine on the outside, full of ikkyness inside), and when something better was offered, they destroyed it, but not permanently,

jasonwestmas
12-16-2009, 08:21 AM
Nothing worth a dad-son god getting killed over. By that's why he came to save us through his suicide mission... To wash away the sin (including the ancestral sin from Adam) for us.

And if hes omniscient and omnipotent he knew it would get him killed and could have blinked and stopped it if he wanted. (In fact he has a plan for everyone, including the executioners). So I can't see how it was anything but a suicide mission (other than he didn't die....). Seems like all he accomplished was getting the Jews branded as Christ killers for a couple millennium.

Yeah well somebody is always responsible for murder and I don't think the entire Jew nation killed Christ, the handful of people who were in power at the time killed Christ because they saw him as someone who would take that power away.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2009, 08:22 AM
True, the law is not discarded. I was more referring to Old Israel and their strict adherence to the law, yet many were corrupt (whitewashed tombs, pristine on the outside, full of ikkyness inside), and when something better was offered, they destroyed it, but not permanently,

right

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 08:22 AM
I would too but look we are getting better so rapidly, shame it statetd recently, but, mate, in just recent 50 years we made good progress. That is the hope for the future.

Pinkers TED talk on this was pretty good, I give it a big recommendation for everyone:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

jameswillmott
12-16-2009, 08:24 AM
Jesus didn't not "willing" go to his death.

Yes he did. Wasn't that the whole point? He might not have liked it but it was something he could have avoided (easily) if he so chose.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 08:24 AM
True, the law is not discarded. I was more referring to Old Israel and their strict adherence to the law, yet many were corrupt (whitewashed tombs, pristine on the outside, full of ikkyness inside), and when something better was offered, they destroyed it, but not permanently,

So then the no beard trimming or death still stands. Same with stoning your kids. And no poly-cotton clothes for you! :)

Soth
12-16-2009, 08:25 AM
Yeah well somebody is always responsible for murder and I don't think the entire Jew nation killed Christ, the handful of people who were in power at the time killed Christ because they saw him as someone who would take that power away.

But whole nation suffered for many years, just because st. Peter did not liked them. That was all politics, just ancient. Even Old Testament was created because of politics. Can provide details if anyone want. It is dirty business.

shrox
12-16-2009, 08:28 AM
Yes he did. Wasn't that the whole point? He might not have liked it but it was something he could have avoided (easily) if he so chose.

He even asked that this cup be taken from him. When I said not willing, I guess I meant not joyfully.

shrox
12-16-2009, 08:29 AM
I wish we were all sitting around in some cozy pub having this discussion in person, I think it would be insightful, funny, and perhaps even non-violent...

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 08:33 AM
He even asked that this cup be taken from him. When I said not willing, I guess I meant not joyfully.

I picture lying down and waiting until ants ate me and killed me. :) For sure not joyful, but I'm definitely the one making it happen. then I have to make sure one ant tribe labels the killer ants as Mike-killers.

jameswillmott
12-16-2009, 08:38 AM
I wish we were all sitting around in some cozy pub having this discussion in person, I think it would be insightful, funny, and perhaps even non-violent...

I agree, 'twould be nice.

jameswillmott
12-16-2009, 08:39 AM
When I said not willing, I guess I meant not joyfully.

Ok, that makes sense.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2009, 08:52 AM
But whole nation suffered for many years, just because st. Peter did not liked them. That was all politics, just ancient. Even Old Testament was created because of politics. Can provide details if anyone want. It is dirty business.

Well, we are all descendants of Adam, thus we are all suffering from sin and death regardless of the political situation. It is true that Israel descended in power but their messiah and rightful king is right in front of them anyway. Many Jews believed on Christ right away, others never did, some accepted Jesus as the prophesied messiah much later. The Jews knew he was coming and a the ones in power at the time decided it would be best to kill him for their own self- righteousness and personal gain.

Also, there was John The Baptist who was killed for the same reason. And after Christ was Killed Stephen was stoned in lystra for telling the pharisees they killed the lord of glory and need to stop "resisting the Holy Ghost", the unforgivable sin.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2009, 08:54 AM
Yes, Christ didn't want to be mutilated and hang on a beam of wood. He did it because the Father Asked him to and because he loved the world so that all could be saved.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 09:05 AM
Well, we are all descendants of Adam,

Not me. Speak for yourself.

Unless your talking MRCA.... Then this guy is who you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

But there was nothing special about him at the time. It's only in hindsight we can see that he had a successful line. There has to eventually be some guy who's the big daddy if you go back far enough. He just happens to be it.

OnlineRender
12-16-2009, 09:08 AM
Pinkers TED talk on this was pretty good, I give it a big recommendation for everyone:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Love that website .............

JBT27
12-16-2009, 09:09 AM
Yeah well somebody is always responsible for murder and I don't think the entire Jew nation killed Christ, the handful of people who were in power at the time killed Christ because they saw him as someone who would take that power away.

That's the one ..... this is the absolute core of this whole thing and again, the history is what seriously counts on this story; all the rest is mythology.

Add JC to the very long list who were an actual and potential threat to the Roman Republic and then the Empire, including other Romans. Execution, all out war, invasion, whatever it takes, just remove the threat.

Julian.

JBT27
12-16-2009, 09:11 AM
I wish we were all sitting around in some cozy pub having this discussion in person, I think it would be insightful, funny, and perhaps even non-violent...

..... what, you mean like the Last Supper? :D

Julian.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 09:11 AM
Love that website .............

Yeah, smart ideas in bite size 20 minute chunks... Great stuff.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2009, 09:28 AM
Not me. Speak for yourself.

Unless your talking MRCA.... Then this guy is who you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

But there was nothing special about him at the time. It's only in hindsight we can see that he had a successful line. There has to eventually be some guy who's the big daddy if you go back far enough. He just happens to be it.

Which Tribe did you originate from?;D

Soth
12-16-2009, 10:14 AM
idea that someone actually can believe all this stuff is so alien to me, how? just how? this is the place where my empathy ends...

guys please study history of the bible, you will learn that it is all made up, both old and new testament

2000 years ago all fameus roman generals had powers similar to jesus, seriously, that was the age of myths and fairytales... and we shall put it behind us... even if its harmless it is just plan silly

OnlineRender
12-16-2009, 10:34 AM
I think Persistant is living up to his name and about to post in 3 . 2 ...... 1

shrox
12-16-2009, 11:15 AM
I'll sum it up like this. God doesn't hate you, is not mad at you, and doesn't jerk people around.

shrox
12-16-2009, 11:19 AM
idea that someone actually can believe all this stuff is so alien to me, how? just how? this is the place where my empathy ends...

guys please study history of the bible, you will learn that it is all made up, both old and new testament...

Again, there is plenty of other physical evidence that it was not made up, just like the city of Troy was not made up. In the past decade, archaeologists have apparently hit the layer of Jesus' time, and there are now physical artifacts with names inscribed that are mentioned in the Bible. King Herod was real, Golgotha is real, the temple is real, the house of David is real, the house of Peter is real, and there is so much more.

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Again, there is plenty of other physical evidence that it was not made up, just like the city of Troy was not made up. In the past decade, archaeologists have apparently hit the layer of Jesus' time, and there are now physical artifacts with names inscribed that are mentioned in the Bible. King Herod was real, Golgotha is real, the temple is real, the house of David is real, the house of Peter is real, and there is so much more.

90% of whats in Tom Clancy's books is real. But that doesn't mean the story is true.

Dexter2999
12-16-2009, 11:23 AM
I'll sum it up like this. God doesn't hate you, is not mad at you, and doesn't jerk people around.

Tell it to Job.

shrox
12-16-2009, 01:22 PM
Tell it to Job.

I was going to mention Job, but I didn't want to offer a seeming contradiction. It was actually Satan (Santa?) jerking Job around.

shrox
12-16-2009, 02:19 PM
No. He only points a gun to your head and says accept me or not. YOU have the "choice." Of course if you don't accept me, I'll pull this trigger. Yup... THAT'S a choice. :devil:

Wow, did you have a bad experince with some church? Why do you insist on a hateful god?

shrox
12-16-2009, 02:30 PM
What are you talking about? THAT is the choice. What is incorrect about my statement?

Where does the gun come from? Being offered a free gift amounts to coercion?

Mike_RB
12-16-2009, 02:36 PM
Wow, did you have a bad experince with some church? Why do you insist on a hateful god?

He doesn't hate you, he loves you so much he'll burn you forever, but it pains him to do so. :)

Like the christmas fire log they show on loop on TV. :) (Just to keep this on topic).