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jayroth
12-08-2009, 02:57 PM
Letter located here:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=957337#post957337

Please discuss your thoughts about the LightWave 3D with CORE Technology letter in this thread.

ednachman
12-08-2009, 03:00 PM
I'm first? I'm overwhelmed. I can't talk or write.

cagey5
12-08-2009, 03:01 PM
Looking forward to the physics engine. Here's some examples done in other packages using the same engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBzBfhrjx5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8uT-NFYMI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ilojin4vQ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8-5D1Sqflc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9HaT23b-xc&feature=related

Sekhar
12-08-2009, 03:05 PM
Congratulations Jay and NT, and your outline/positioning looks great!

Larry_g1s
12-08-2009, 03:05 PM
As I mentioned in the Core forum...this is very exciting and glad NT moved the date to implement these.

OnlineRender
12-08-2009, 03:10 PM
;)

zarti
12-08-2009, 03:12 PM
while non-core forum members are reading the pdf, i can type here ... =)
congratulations! nice pdf.

Wickster
12-08-2009, 03:14 PM
Yup very exciting stuff. Congrats to the team.

...and now the fun begins.

JeffrySG
12-08-2009, 03:16 PM
Great news! :)

zarti
12-08-2009, 03:19 PM
poor F5 key ... =)

Lewis
12-08-2009, 03:19 PM
PDF looks nice/better so yeah good work :) :D.

MachineClaw
12-08-2009, 03:20 PM
Delayed the release to Q1 2010 ...well theres a big shock (NOT!).

I don't care about v1.0 software until it hits final and on shelves, and even then rarely care until there is a v2.0 to see if the software is going to survive (anybody remember Inspire 3D??).

Sorry too little too late and my money goes somewhere else. But that's me. Not bashing just being bruttally honest. I didn't get what was hyped in the 9.0 cycle and have to go elsewhere for it <<shrug>>.

mouse_art
12-08-2009, 03:20 PM
Great news!


Yep it is, and the potential behind Core.

jgatter
12-08-2009, 03:20 PM
nice work... from what I can tell from screen grabs.

Limbus
12-08-2009, 03:23 PM
This sounds really nice. Are all these features supposed to be in Core v1?

Cheers, Florian

TheDynamo
12-08-2009, 03:24 PM
Just have to tell my clients and job to take a break for a while ;)

Kuzey
12-08-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm up to page 7 of the pdf and so far so good :thumbsup:

Core name...I'm glad I just wasn't blowing smoke on the issue :hey: It's a small thing but can have a big impact...I'm glad Newtek is taking the time to think it through :thumbsup:

Icons..Core has icons...hehe

So Core has a render engine and limited animation system...super cool. I'm glad it's not just a modelling package on first release. Does it have CA tools...but can't be transferred to layout for render(two different systems..as the message/pdf says) or is it just limited in scope?

That's about it but..nice work so far :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Lewis
12-08-2009, 03:27 PM
This sounds really nice. Are all these features supposed to be in Core v1?


Yep that would be correct :).

Kuzey
12-08-2009, 03:27 PM
Also...any date on when the Core videos will start to come out :D

Kuzey

COBRASoft
12-08-2009, 03:31 PM
Congrats NT! Keep CORE coming :)

cresshead
12-08-2009, 03:35 PM
before anyone asks...yeah you can load obj's into core..it's just been missed in the pdf by the looks of it.

geothefaust
12-08-2009, 03:36 PM
Cool. Good to see this public now. :thumbsup:

stevecullum
12-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Does it have CA tools...but can't be transferred to layout for render(two different systems..as the message/pdf says) or is it just limited in scope?

As is mentioned in the PDF, CORE 1.0 won't have a skinning system, but it does have IK, so robots and stuff should be good to go...

The Dommo
12-08-2009, 03:45 PM
it is allllll goooood

Kuzey
12-08-2009, 03:45 PM
Nice pdf indeed....looks like there are a ton of editors in the Core.

Do we still have the same object/scene relationship from LW (each object being independent of each other) or is there only Collada scenes...no Collada objects files???


Kuzey

monovich
12-08-2009, 03:59 PM
Delayed the release to Q1 2010 ...well theres a big shock (NOT!).

I don't care about v1.0 software until it hits final and on shelves, and even then rarely care until there is a v2.0 to see if the software is going to survive (anybody remember Inspire 3D??).

Sorry too little too late and my money goes somewhere else. But that's me. Not bashing just being bruttally honest. I didn't get what was hyped in the 9.0 cycle and have to go elsewhere for it <<shrug>>.

k thanks bye

Kuzey
12-08-2009, 04:02 PM
As is mentioned in the PDF, CORE 1.0 won't have a skinning system, but it does have IK, so robots and stuff should be good to go...

Yeap....I saw that..hehe.


Also...can we see the Core app logo...is it a new one...or just a different colour of the current version :D

Kuzey

monovich
12-08-2009, 04:08 PM
thats a very nice PDF. bravo newtek.

Intuition
12-08-2009, 04:09 PM
I think Q1 release 2010 is a bit ambitious of NT. I'll bet a Q2 release is more likely.

I am excited about Core though which is great. Good to see all these great features coming in a 1.0 release.

achrystie
12-08-2009, 04:17 PM
Looks decent.

I guess I'm just unclear as to "exactly" what this translates into in terms of workflow and what can be done.
It mentions a nodal system, as the program is based on that, but how does this relate to the texturing and materials system. That was the most "unclear" portion of the PDF and sales material, how/what are the options for materials. I saw UV editing and texture mapping, but are there a series of generic functions that can be assigned to surfaces to make procedural textures and/or materials/shaders and is this done with a node system or with layers?

The character animation lacking is a bummer, but what I expected to see, honestly, however, even with a renderer, it's not much good or use if the material system is lacking. Can someone elaborate on that a bit?

A video of someone modeling, setting up materials/shaders for the object, and quickly animating something, with a demonstration of the VPR and the final render, would go a long way towards clarity.

archijam
12-08-2009, 04:18 PM
Nice list. Congrats to the team.
Ahead of what I expected of Core v1 feature list.. now I need to clear some time in Q1 ..

Soth
12-08-2009, 04:18 PM
I've updated Wikipedia ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_(software)#Commercial

mav3rick
12-08-2009, 04:20 PM
I think Q1 release 2010 is a bit ambitious of NT. I'll bet a Q2 release is more likely.

I am excited about Core though which is great. Good to see all these great features coming in a 1.0 release.


i have mention same weeks ago but got shoot for that :) it may sound ambitious but more important is it should let 3d world know LIGHTWAVE comes back with new power. keep up great work NT and i hope all of your targets for 1.0 release comes back as great feedback from clients.

jgatter
12-08-2009, 04:28 PM
Looks decent.

I guess I'm just unclear as to "exactly" what this translates into in terms of workflow and what can be done.
It mentions a nodal system, as the program is based on that, but how does this relate to the texturing and materials system. That was the most "unclear" portion of the PDF and sales material, how/what are the options for materials. I saw UV editing and texture mapping, but are there a series of generic functions that can be assigned to surfaces to make procedural textures and/or materials/shaders and is this done with a node system or with layers?

The character animation lacking is a bummer, but what I expected to see, honestly, however, even with a renderer, it's not much good or use if the material system is lacking. Can someone elaborate on that a bit?

A video of someone modeling, setting up materials/shaders for the object, and quickly animating something, with a demonstration of the VPR and the final render, would go a long way towards clarity.

Yeah.. there is giant holes in the pdf, but I do think it has tantalized me enough to buy it before the price goes up. This should have been the core reveal...

akademus
12-08-2009, 04:32 PM
I really like the way this is going.

So what if there's no skinning, you can still transfer animation via mdd and go on from there.

If anything 1.0 will be a great platform to build on. :thumbsup:

Kuzey
12-08-2009, 04:33 PM
Also, under the create (tab/tools) we have sphere, box, cylinder and then we have polygon sphere, polygon cylinder etc. Is there nurbs or whatever they are called in Core??


Kuzey

Dodgy
12-08-2009, 04:34 PM
Looks decent.

I guess I'm just unclear as to "exactly" what this translates into in terms of workflow and what can be done.
It mentions a nodal system, as the program is based on that, but how does this relate to the texturing and materials system. That was the most "unclear" portion of the PDF and sales material, how/what are the options for materials. I saw UV editing and texture mapping, but are there a series of generic functions that can be assigned to surfaces to make procedural textures and/or materials/shaders and is this done with a node system or with layers?


Everything in Core is node based.

Kuzey
12-08-2009, 04:37 PM
I really like the way this is going.

So what if there's no skinning, you can still transfer animation via mdd and go on from there.

If anything 1.0 will be a great platform to build on. :thumbsup:

Skinning was mentioned as only an example, but yeah...I'm just glad they have basic render and animation capabilities within Core :thumbsup:

Kuzey

jgatter
12-08-2009, 04:37 PM
Also... I didnt see anything for creating points in the pdf. Is this still possible in core?

calilifestyle
12-08-2009, 04:38 PM
no instancing

dwburman
12-08-2009, 04:43 PM
I really like the way this is going.

So what if there's no skinning, you can still transfer animation via mdd and go on from there.

If anything 1.0 will be a great platform to build on. :thumbsup:

I take "no skinning" to mean no bone deformations on meshes since I believe that is how the term "skinning" is used in Maya.

jayroth
12-08-2009, 04:45 PM
no instancing

CORE does instancing. It may have been mistakenly deleted in one of the numerous edit sessions this document went through.

Silkrooster
12-08-2009, 04:45 PM
Also... I didnt see anything for creating points in the pdf. Is this still possible in core?

There are two reasons that can answer that, I am not sure we can go into much detail yet, as I haven't seen a go ahead from NT yet.

1)Some features have not made the list and will be added after version 1

or

2)Some features were accidentally left off the PDF and hasn't been corrected yet.

Pick one and hope you are winner.

Bookman
12-08-2009, 04:47 PM
no instancing

they demoed instancing in the reveal video at the beginning of this year.

calilifestyle
12-08-2009, 04:50 PM
they demoed instancing in the reveal video at the beginning of this year.

yeah i say the demo but that was so long ago.. might have been removed. Also Jay just said there is instancing, thanks

MachineClaw
12-08-2009, 04:53 PM
k thanks bye


ahhh IC....I didn't realize this thread was only the cheerleading thread. okay got it now.

achrystie
12-08-2009, 04:54 PM
Everything in Core is node based.

That's nice to know, any way we can find out what "specific" nodes are available and how it's done/what the workflow is like without buying the program first?

This is my fundamental issue with each reveal and the whole Core thing.
Looks good!...but the devil is in the details...

It keeps feeling like Newtek doesn't really want my money.

Lightwolf
12-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Hi Jay,

Could you elaborate on this please:

...CORE leverages the performance of professional graphics cards ....
What does that mean for non-Quadro and non-FireGL owners?

Cheers,
Mike

stevecullum
12-08-2009, 05:03 PM
That's nice to know, any way we can find out what "specific" nodes are available and how it's done/what the workflow is like without buying the program first?

I'm pretty sure there will be a demo version to try at some point around CORE's release date.

Soth
12-08-2009, 05:07 PM
It keeps feeling like Newtek doesn't really want my money.

Mate just wait till release date and you will have forum buzzing with feedback and probably demo version on top of that.

flashover
12-08-2009, 05:12 PM
NT great, I like the interface, everything looks very cool.
Thanks D-Team :D
I'm too happy ...

P.S. Perhaps in pdf fiberfx missing.

caesar
12-08-2009, 05:29 PM
Wow, Im impressed!
Well, may I ask, educational version plans?

Samus
12-08-2009, 06:03 PM
HEHEHE....How about Videos to back that up while waiting Q1 huh ???

ednachman
12-08-2009, 06:06 PM
Just noticed in the latest Newsletter the following; CORE technology is very efficient in terms of speed and memory. Designed for 64- and 32-bit operating systems, CORE supports Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Macintosh and Linux operating systems, and is up to five times more efficient in RAM usage than LightWave v9.6.1.

No mention of Windows XP. Hope it was inadvertently left out.

Intuition
12-08-2009, 06:15 PM
Hi Jay,

Could you elaborate on this please:

What does that mean for non-Quadro and non-FireGL owners?

Cheers,
Mike

I think he means that if you have a higher end video card, like a Quadro, Core will use the extra resources it has fully. Where as currently most people don't see huge differences in quality with a Quadro vs say a GTS.

I don't think he meant that you need to have a Quadro to use Core.

Carm3D
12-08-2009, 06:20 PM
"In CORE, you can use dynamics for simulation, modeling, or interaction with scene items. Animation created in CORE can be exported into LightWave Layout (and other applications) via the MDD file format."

If this means I can take characters animated in Lightwave 9.6.x and export their .MDDs into Core to be used with dynamics for adding clothes and such, then MDD the core dynamics back into Lightwave 9.6.x, I am sold (sorry for the run-on sentence).

I hope that in the future, when core does character skinning, I can use both bones and deformation cages to deform a single character with a unified skin. This way I can use dynamics on a portion of a character to do things like muscle or fat simulations.

geo_n
12-08-2009, 06:23 PM
WOW! VPR, IK, Bullet dynamics! More than what I expected.
Regarding mdd, please add support for pointcache data. Dpont did this already in lw legacy. Much needed for cross platform work!

Dodgy
12-08-2009, 06:29 PM
There is instancing.

zarti
12-08-2009, 06:34 PM
...

No mention of Windows XP. Hope it was inadvertently left out.

there seems to be no other explanation but that.

ghostlight
12-08-2009, 06:44 PM
Just read the PDF and I'm very excited! Good job, NT, with the way it reads well for experienced 3D users and those who may be entirely new to it. I'm ready to simulate a giant Jenga tower falling over...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdNeaSgqcFg

cresshead
12-08-2009, 07:59 PM
WOW! VPR, IK, Bullet dynamics! More than what I expected.
Regarding mdd, please add support for pointcache data. Dpont did this already in lw legacy. Much needed for cross platform work!

agree..that would open it up for 3dsmax and other apps moving data around

:agree:

cresshead
12-08-2009, 08:01 PM
there seems to be no other explanation but that.

yeah there's a few things that got lost in the last shuffle of the edit to the pdf...

instancing...TICK:thumbsup:
obj loader...TICK:thumbsup:
runs on windows XP....TICK:thumbsup:

all above are in core

Tobian
12-08-2009, 08:06 PM
That is all excellent stuff, especially the VPR renderer! :) I am curious about how advanced the materials are in Core.. we have amazing things like PHONG and BLINN (WOW! :D) but does Core yet have a node-based material system, or advanced physically real materials like the 9.X. I know the Node system in 9.X was a hack, but it had huge depth, such as SSS, spot nodes, per-shader normal maps and the like.. I hope it's not going back to a pre 9.X system :( It would be far to much to hope for a direct import of 9.6 nodes, but something similar, which can be expanded on, would be good.

jin choung
12-08-2009, 08:33 PM
hmmm... no mention of any "setup" features in the list at the end.

(i would ask questions but it's pointless to ask about stuff behind the velvet rope so...) just digesting aloud:

at this point in time, it would seem to me that core 1.0 would lag behind the current iteration of modo (in robustness and certainly in polish)... that being noteworthy because modo does not claim (yet) to be an all around cg app. and the use of .mdd is smart and absolutely the right way to go but also very very remniscent in my mind to modo's current implementation.

at this point then, it really looks like it's a race between core and modo to the finish line of "complete cg app" (and possibly for the crown of "LIGHTWAVE NEXT"!) with modo having a significant lead. i'm not a modo user (yet) but from what i'm seeing, it looks (to an outsider like me) that it is a certainty that modo is pushing for a full cg app.

i'm not much into motor sports (or successions of the crown) but this is a race that i will watch with interest. especially taking into consideration that it has taken modo this many revisions and this much time to go from zero to where it is now and its current level of polish.... hmmmmmmmmm......

all in all, an interesting update. about in line with my initial expectations.

jin

Marshun
12-08-2009, 08:53 PM
Wow. I just got a much larger grasp of CORE ever after reading that. Very good.

hrgiger
12-08-2009, 09:03 PM
hmmm... no mention of any "setup" features in the list at the end.

(i would ask questions but it's pointless to ask about stuff behind the velvet rope so...) just digesting aloud:

at this point in time, it would seem to me that core 1.0 would lag behind the current iteration of modo (in robustness and certainly in polish)... that being noteworthy because modo does not claim (yet) to be an all around cg app. and the use of .mdd is smart and absolutely the right way to go but also very very remniscent in my mind to modo's current implementation.

at this point then, it really looks like it's a race between core and modo to the finish line of "complete cg app" (and possibly for the crown of "LIGHTWAVE NEXT"!) with modo having a significant lead. i'm not a modo user (yet) but from what i'm seeing, it looks (to an outsider like me) that it is a certainty that modo is pushing for a full cg app.

i'm not much into motor sports (or successions of the crown) but this is a race that i will watch with interest. especially taking into consideration that it has taken modo this many revisions and this much time to go from zero to where it is now and its current level of polish.... hmmmmmmmmm......

all in all, an interesting update. about in line with what my initial expectations.

jin

Hmmm Jin, I was really waiting for your 'the good, the bad, and the ugly' post.:)

Just a few thoughts of my own in this arena.... As both a user of Lightwave/CORE and Modo 401.
As far as setup, are you talking about rigging? In the PDF, it does tell you that CORE has IK and skeleton (joint) animation but that the first version of CORE will not have a skinning method so in that sense, its similar to the current capabilities of Modo 401. It does appear too that CORE will be able to animate modeling operations which Modo doesn't do. But I won't make too much of a comparision because honestly, I haven't really gotten into the animation tools in 401 yet. Michael Blackbourn would be much better equipped to comment on that (Modo I mean, CORE is still undergoing changes).
MDD is important to this version of CORE in particular because of the link between Lightwave HC and CORE. With it, we'll be able to use the bullet physics dynamics and bring the motions into Lightwave HC for rendering there if we wish.
As far as any race between Modo and CORE..... well, as you pointed out, it has taken Modo several versions (and years) to get to where its at now. This is CORE's first real year of development and so while Modo certainly is a more polished and refined application at this point, its really hard to compare the two because CORE is still in beta and may undergo much more change before its released in the next 3 or 4 months. Personally for me, I think CORE has taken a better approach to building an application. Focused on making an SDK available upon release, modifier stack, an interactive renderer which is actually the same as the underlying render engine and not just a previewer, a node based application....

Larry_g1s
12-08-2009, 09:18 PM
Focused on making an SDK available upon release....This is huge. I've recently had a discussion with one of our favorite LW 3rd party modeling geniuses (I think you know who I'm talking about) and his initial comments of playing around in the Core SDK was "I like it, I like it a lot." This is big for Core's future, but also in it's infancy.

I can see why people are making the comparison with Modo, but I'd much rather see LW and Modo take away some of Autodesk's space then each others. I like and use Maya, I just don't care for the way AD runs their lic. and such, and I'd much rather see them have some solid competition.

Marshun
12-08-2009, 09:19 PM
Hi Jay,

Could you elaborate on this please:

What does that mean for non-Quadro and non-FireGL owners?

Cheers,
MikeI'd like to see this one answered too. I'm somewhat pleased with sticking to the Quadro series. But am curious about the GTS GTX cards in comparison. I'm thinking the latter are more for gaming and speed. Will the Quadros be pushed more towards their limits and what will that mean for the GTs and FireGLs?

hrgiger
12-08-2009, 09:24 PM
I can see why people are making the comparison with Modo, but I'd much rather see LW and Modo take away some of Autodesk's space then each others. I like and use Maya, I just don't care for the way AD runs their lic. and such, and I'd much rather see them have some solid competition.

I'm with you there Larry. I'd love to see both CORE and Modo steal some thunder from Autodesk. Would actually like to see some more comaraderie (sp?) between LW and Modo users. But there's bad history there.

Honestly, I thought once the CORE feature list was revealed, that people would not make such a comparison between CORE and Modo any more. People were making that comparision at first (I assumed)because it was believed that CORE would be mostly a modeling app in the beginning much like Modo was. But its clear now that the two applications took a much different path of development.

And yes, I know exactly which developer you're referring to and that is frikkin music to my ears that he is liking the SDK.

jin choung
12-08-2009, 09:37 PM
Hmmm Jin, I was really waiting for your 'the good, the bad, and the ugly' post.:)

Just a few thoughts of my own in this arena.... As both a user of Lightwave/CORE and Modo 401.
As far as setup, are you talking about rigging?

i'm talking about what is listed in the PDF as "SETUP". as in one of the tabs. they list tools for some tabs in the back. setup's contents are missing in action.



In the PDF, it does tell you that CORE has IK and skeleton (joint) animation but that the first version of CORE will not have a skinning method so in that sense, its similar to the current capabilities of Modo 401.

yes. it does.


It does appear too that CORE will be able to animate modeling operations which Modo doesn't do. But I won't make too much of a comparision because honestly, I haven't really gotten into the animation tools in 401 yet. Michael Blackbourn would be much better equipped to comment on that (Modo I mean, CORE is still undergoing changes).

yeah... we'll have to see. what is planned and what IS (or will be) is a huge difference.

would also be interested to hear the evaluation of core animation in its current (and reasonably foreseeable state) compared to modo.


As far as any race between Modo and CORE..... well, as you pointed out, it has taken Modo several versions (and years) to get to where its at now. This is CORE's first real year of development and so while Modo certainly is a more polished and refined application at this point, its really hard to compare the two because CORE is still in beta and may undergo much more change before its released in the next 3 or 4 months.

i'm afraid my statement about modo's timetable is a bit more dire than maybe it comes across as.

they're not retarded monkeys poking at keys until a random line gets through "syntax error" over at lux. and yet, it took them this long to get to where they are. my point is refinement and excellence invariably take time.

so in this regard, core is behind. unless they are throwing much greater resources at this than modo did.

so my point is, in a race, core actually has a lot of ground to make up.

it's not invariably true that they won't be able to catch up but it is likely. and the fact that they seem to share many similarities will make the comparison sharper and more distinct as time goes by.


Personally for me, I think CORE has taken a better approach to building an application. Focused on making an SDK available upon release, modifier stack, an interactive renderer which is actually the same as the underlying render engine and not just a previewer, a node based application....

is the iterative renderer in modo not using its own renderer? that's news to me cuz i would imagine just hacking together a ray tracing renderer (that operates in real time no less) ex-nihilo would be more time consuming than using portions of your own renderer. and i have not heard of any limitations based on shader/light/renderer incompatibility and that's all that would really matter right?

as for CORE's approach - the proof will be in the pudding. philosophically, it sounds good.

but it is where it is now. and no one else (modo, max, maya, etc) are standing still waiting for core to reach parity.

and you just can't discount the heavy disadvantage core suffers by not starting with the letter 'm'.

anyway, as we stand, 1.0 is not what many were thinking it would be back in the bad old days of "the announcement". oh if i could quote the quotes.

it's about what i expected, a little more in some areas, a little less in others. and as you say, 4 or 5 months still left.

my mind = open. my level of investedness = 0.

we will see.

jin

jin choung
12-08-2009, 09:41 PM
Honestly, I thought once the CORE feature list was revealed, that people would not make such a comparison between CORE and Modo any more. People were making that comparision at first (I assumed)because it was believed that CORE would be mostly a modeling app in the beginning much like Modo was.

huh?

how can they not?

especially since core is aiming to be (in terms of featureset), just about where modo is now... especially when it comes to animation.

as i said, especially because of pedigree and even similarity of the actual apps, the comparisons will become GREATER as we learn more and after release... NOT less. i daresay newtekkers will grow to loathe it.

this is a burden that core will either have to live with or blow past.

we will see.

jin

jin choung
12-08-2009, 09:45 PM
oh, and as for vik, i've said it before, i'll say it again - newtek should get on their hands and knees and thank their lucky stars that viktor has decided to hitch his wagon to their star and is sticking with them to core.

as i see core take inspiration from modo, i see modo taking inspiration for lwcad.

so there is definitely one for newtek.

the issue is how quickly viktor can implement as version for core.

jin

hrgiger
12-08-2009, 09:47 PM
is the iterative renderer in modo not using its own renderer? that's news to me cuz i would imagine just hacking together a ray tracing renderer (that operates in real time no less) ex-nihilo would be more time consuming than using portions of your own renderer. and i have not heard of any limitations based on shader/light/renderer incompatibility and that's all that would really matter right?



Well I certainly can't speak on how they implemented their iterative renderer. I'm sure that it shares a lot of similarities with its out of the box final renderer. I was just merely pointing out that Modos iterative render only renders to (and I'm quoting here) "near final quality". So its only a previewer. And in that sense, its worth its weight in gold. CORE's VPR is the same renderer as its final renderer, it just uses different methods to work in the iterative fashion. Now I don't know what exactly that implies for the future. I don't know if we'll have F-prime capabilities like saving rendered images, stopping and starting renders, things like that. But it will give you the same results as the final renderer will give you and I have to say if given the choice, I gotta go with the CORE VPR. It also has the cool overlay feature which allows you to manipulate objects inside the render window while its rendering. And that's pretty damn cool.

hrgiger
12-08-2009, 09:51 PM
huh?

how can they not?

especially since core is aiming to be (in terms of featureset), just about where modo is now... especially when it comes to animation.

as i said, especially because of pedigree and even similarity of the actual apps, the comparisons will become GREATER as we learn more and after release... NOT less. i daresay newtekkers will grow to loathe it.

this is a burden that core will either have to live with or blow past.

we will see.

jin

Yes, I would agree with you on most of this. I think its mostly due to the shared history that Modo and CORE will always be compared. I guess I was just referring to the actual path of development. If CORE had been mostly been a modeler for version 1, then the comparisions would be relentless was all I was saying.

3D Kiwi
12-08-2009, 10:02 PM
Does anyone know if they intend on devloping the compositor into a more complete system or just keep it basic. After using fx tree in xsi its great to have a full compositor (be it a bit old) in your 3d app.

jasonwestmas
12-08-2009, 10:35 PM
That is all excellent stuff, especially the VPR renderer! :) I am curious about how advanced the materials are in Core.. we have amazing things like PHONG and BLINN (WOW! :D) but does Core yet have a node-based material system, or advanced physically real materials like the 9.X. I know the Node system in 9.X was a hack, but it had huge depth, such as SSS, spot nodes, per-shader normal maps and the like.. I hope it's not going back to a pre 9.X system :( It would be far to much to hope for a direct import of 9.6 nodes, but something similar, which can be expanded on, would be good.

"Things" from 9.6 can be ported to Core such as the rendering stuff. Core should be able to replace and surpass the 9.6 Renderer eventually of course. From what I understand, the core SDK will enable additions to the renderer that were not possible with 9.6.

I personally will be using MDD files to render in 9.6 or Core depending on how far along the Core Renderer is.

jasonwestmas
12-08-2009, 10:37 PM
Does anyone know if they intend on devloping the compositor into a more complete system or just keep it basic. After using fx tree in xsi its great to have a full compositor (be it a bit old) in your 3d app.

What you see in the PDF is what you get at this point. :)

jin choung
12-08-2009, 10:40 PM
If CORE had been mostly been a modeler for version 1, then the comparisions would be relentless was all I was saying.

Oh definitely. But otoh, coming out with "attempted feature parity" in the animation department with the current release of modo is not exactly steering clear either.

When it comes to the head to head, this is going to get much worse before it gets better (if ever).

But in terms of cattle prods in the rectum and value for the dollar, this competition should prove... Useful.

Jin

Stooch
12-08-2009, 10:47 PM
good to hear that you guys are using a real physics engine instead of doing some inhouse retardcode.

im actually most excited about core i have ever been. which is about 5 out of 10 on the excitement scale.

( subtract 2 for "******* your customers" penalty ).

jasonwestmas
12-08-2009, 11:00 PM
Lol. yeah no retardo-code allowed.:stop:;)

jin choung
12-08-2009, 11:02 PM
I was just merely pointing out that Modos iterative render only renders to (and I'm quoting here) "near final quality". So its only a previewer. And in that sense, its worth its weight in gold. CORE's VPR is the same renderer as its final renderer, it just uses different methods to work in the iterative fashion. Now I don't know what exactly that implies for the future. I don't know if we'll have F-prime capabilities like saving rendered images, stopping and starting renders, things like that. But it will give you the same results as the final renderer will give you and I have to say if given the choice, I gotta go with the CORE VPR.

that's kinda funny don't you think? If you CANT save renders in progress ala fprime, in what sense is viper NOT "just a previewer" no matter how beautiful the result?

Kinda like going the extra mile for no reason. At all!

Also, I'm gonna press you since you ARE a modo user - in what sense does the modo previewer fall short of final render? Are there discernible DISCREPANCIES in the renders? As a user in what sense is that quote "near final" indeed fall short? And can you NOT save progressive renders in modo?

And again, inasmuchas the core renderer is not even at parity with lw 9.6, I can see no reason to prefer its previewer over modo's... Except in speaking about a hypothetical future that may be years out (during which time, again, no one else is standing still).

And just FYI, for a non invested non partisan in this race between modo and core, I will be examining core for depth and polish. Because indeed, core strives to be more than just a modeler - indeed tries in many ways to sport the breadth of features of modo as it stands now. But given the brief time in production, I would be leery of DEPTH, POLISH and INTELLIGENCE in implementation.

It's senseless to ask those behind the velvet curtain so I will wait to pass my judgment when the time comes.

Jin

JonW
12-08-2009, 11:05 PM
Hi Jay,

Could you elaborate on this please:

What does that mean for non-Quadro and non-FireGL owners?

Cheers,
Mike

If Core leverages the performance, a Quadro 5800 may be worth looking at.

Id be quite happy to shove a Quadro in my W5580 if its going to reduce render time.

jin choung
12-08-2009, 11:11 PM
Does anyone know if they intend on devloping the compositor into a more complete system or just keep it basic. After using fx tree in xsi its great to have a full compositor (be it a bit old) in your 3d app.

those who know won't tell and those who don't are just guessing.

here's my guess - considering all the talk in the pdf about third party plugins and how there will not be even a built in keyer in compositor, it seems like it will be bare bones.

the hope then is that it is expandable and extensible enough in the sdk for flayers to get in there and make it more robust.

the fact that they mention that the compositor lives in 3d space, the big hope is that it can be a poor man's nuke.

actually, it's disappointing that there seems to be such implied expectation lowering about the comp. especially since it lives in 3d, it could be really really cool.

but it would need a built in keyer!

at the very least.

jin

*Pete*
12-08-2009, 11:41 PM
vpr is still fresh out of the owen, and core is still beta/alpha.

But even in its early form vpr is fast, very fast.
And you can, if you would have a need for it, have vpr active on all viewports and model your models while it is rendering it for you...the speed is impressive.

But this doesnt mean that it is better than fprime or modos previewer, or worse.
Its just one more of the list of cool stuff we didnt have in 9.6.

The most impressive thing about core, however, must be the nodal based system...its not limited to surfacing.
It will pretty much allow you to be a god in core...this is far from what i ever can master.
But the potential is endless and it will propably be the strongest feature of core...

jin choung
12-09-2009, 12:00 AM
vpr is still fresh out of the owen, and core is still beta/alpha.

But even in its early form vpr is fast, very fast.
And you can, if you would have a need for it, have vpr active on all viewports and model your models while it is rendering it for you...the speed is impressive.


cool. Sounded like that's possible in modo (anyone?) but that's undeniably cool. Wouls be interesting to be modeling a glass object in such a view with raytracing on.

Jin

Sonk
12-09-2009, 12:16 AM
I think CORE has taken a better approach to building an application. Focused on making an SDK available upon release, modifier stack, an interactive renderer which is actually the same as the underlying render engine and not just a previewer, a node based application....


As a Modo user i agree, Core 1.0 > Modo 101, that's kinda scary considering Modo 101 was in development for a much longer time....Who ever gets skinning in first has my money ;)

*Pete*
12-09-2009, 12:34 AM
. Wouls be interesting to be modeling a glass object in such a view with raytracing on.

Jin

Sure, throw some radiousity at it as well for extra coolness.

I have not used other interactive renderers so i honestly do not know how it compares.

lino.grandi
12-09-2009, 12:53 AM
Core and Modo are very different imho.

Core is a full nodal application, Modo uses layers for surfacing/shading and modifiers for animation.

About the preview:the preview in Modo IS the render...and you can currently see any feature previewed (volumetric lights, instances, displacements...). You can set the level of refine of the preview itself.

At the moment you can't work in the render view, while in Core you can!

I mean...you activate the VPR in a viewport, draw a box to act as a plane, draw another box and see the ray-traced shadow in RT while still creating geometry....you can model in the render view. So cool.

Core is an extremely opened application...ready to welcome third parts plugins and external dynamics/render engines and , why not, deformation systems.

Everything we've seen implemented in Modo has be done "in house". That could be very cool, but clearly slows down the developing process.

That said....both Modo and Core are very cool applications...going in different directions.

wsantiago
12-09-2009, 01:56 AM
those who know won't tell and those who don't are just guessing.

jin

A truer statement has never been written in this forums. You deserve credit for your honesty about guessing unlike others who claimed to have some sort priviledge knowledge into Core when in reality they know no more than you or me. In fact I think that you are more in touch with reality than the self proclaimed Gurus of Lightwave with Core technology.

It might also be that those who know are making it up as they go.

So if those who know are making it up as they go and those who don't are just guessing, my guess is that the wait will be to atleast Q3 2010.

cower
12-09-2009, 01:59 AM
Great to see actual use of my Model :) . Great future list.

Matt
12-09-2009, 02:16 AM
Good to see this news finally made public.

Interesting times ahead.

parazis
12-09-2009, 02:20 AM
Great to see actual use of my Model :) . Great future list.

Congratulations from Lithuania :)

Soth
12-09-2009, 02:40 AM
ahhh IC....I didn't realize this thread was only the cheerleading thread. okay got it now.

:*

KillMe
12-09-2009, 02:40 AM
about the compositor - call me crazy but while newtek call it barebores it does sound like it can pretty much do anything you want it to but will require plugins to do it - the way i see it if you want to spend money on the plugins it should do most of what will ever be required of a compositor - thought i do agree that including a keyer should be done at somepoint even if not for v.1

as for the compaisons to modo - while modo 401 might have afew more tools etc after god knows how many years in development there is still no SDK - that gotta limit things - why they haven't released one yet i dont know but seems crazy to me

the sdk should equalize features pretty quickly as lot of plugin writers generously release stuff for free and while not free lwcad is coming for core too apparently - anyway will b interesting see how things progress by v.2

Lightwolf
12-09-2009, 02:42 AM
If Core leverages the performance, a Quadro 5800 may be worth looking at.

The things it... and that's why I asked: I terms of raw GPU performance there is absolutely no difference.
The difference is the acceleration and availability of certain OpenGL features that only pro-apps use (due to different requirements: quad buffered stereo support, clipping planes for multiple OpenGL windows as opposed to a single fullscreen view for games... things like that).

So, in the GPU context I really do wonder if there is more meaning behind the wording or if it was just a casual slip.

Cheers,
Mike

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 02:57 AM
what I want to know can you directly import ZB models / 3DC file formats straight into Core ,that would be excellent , or do I need to start writting a pluggin .

realgray
12-09-2009, 03:32 AM
I'm sure the second the SDK is released a GOZ implementation will be started.

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 04:04 AM
Wow the document is really nice. :thumbsup:
Glad to read some good info about CORE .

It is a good plan for sure, as it seems to really leverage all the recent technologies and tendencies regarding high end 3D apps, and also, i have to say, focuses onto standards, a thing that old team seemed in most cases to ignore, in some field innovating a bit, but in others, lacking a clear vision of what was implemented into other apps and became common in all major apps (things like joints, and the different material definitions, lattices, nodes within all the app...

Regarding what I'd expect from the 1.0 release I expect what's called a "good start", more than a modeler for sure, with rendering and some animation capability, lets say a good "foundation" release of the different aspects that will make of CORE a pretty capable 3d app.

as advices i feel to give the team and Newtek,:

1) accurately and extensively document the features of the app both with docs and well done videos. It is highly required, both because it is a new app, to facilitate users coming from other apps, and, because a well documented feature is a winner point. I tell this because Lw suffers by lack of documentation in some areas.

2)marketing/advertisement here i will be very honest , i do think that marketing of newtek is actually lacking, for example, the CORE presentation was done in actual rush.
I appreciated the effort from both you, Jay, and Jonas, too, but it's not what i'd call a good presentation for a thing like CORE deserves.

My feeling is that marketing lacks a clear vision of what's best doing to promote the software, and also, gets often in rush to deliver informations. Marketing team has to be way more careful with this. sometimes is really better to wait a bit more, organize things better , take the time to make, lets say a better vid, even while the team is ahead developing more advanced tools, and deliver information putting the focus and give the needed visibility to what's there yet.
I see many companies doing these errors, btw, not only Newtek for example announcing things, then missing estimated dates, and more. Simply, the key IMHO is keeping the users informed onto development status of the app, communicate well with users, which are your faithful customers.

I could continue for a longer post, but i think clever people can undestand what i mean: invest time and energy onto a good communication with customers.

3) always develop with the artist in mind Seems obvious but's not. in fact, most of the software houses like AD and other, fail with this.

Provide to users workflows making 3D funny to do, less time consuming and possible, with logic and fast workflows, visual based interaction within the app. Consult good artists using several apps. I remember a time in which Newtek had someone like Meni working closer with the team, and this brought very nice things, like phantom points and more innovation which gave Lw a more artistic approach. Extend this vision as much as possible. :thumbsup:


For what regards Modo and the "race" Newtek/Luxology mentioned from other users, I'd say this. Modo and Lightwave are two different beasts, and , even if the market requires an aggressive approach towards making the app better and giving to users features they require, to position the app well within the market, as a company i'd focus into development.

No one fills for you you the time gap there's between a new product and a more seasoned one, be it Maya, XSI or even Modo BUT, good and well managed development and plan(as CORE seems to have) will make the app a good one, and users are interested into good products even if they come after, especially if they bring advantages in terms of workflow and features over other apps.

So, i'd not worry that much about these sort of races, and rather think to provide an app offering to the user a fun and fast experience when working with the app, in the several areas of DCC.
Making 3D is very complex. the more the app facilitates all the tasks an artist has to do, the better it is. his is the key point around which to develop

Modo, for example is a good app, but i's not Maya nor XSI. it brought some level of innovation in workflow, but it is for now out of competition because taking such a huge competition since the start is not so clever.

sorry for the long post, i hope it was a nice read however.:thumbsup:

JohnMarchant
12-09-2009, 04:20 AM
Wow the document is really nice. :thumbsup:
Glad to read some good info about CORE .

It is a good plan for sure, as it seems to really leverage all the recent technologies and tendencies regarding high end 3D apps, and also, i have to say, focuses onto standards, a thing that old team seemed in most cases to ignore, in some field innovating a bit, but in others, lacking a clear vision of what was implemented into other apps and became common in all major apps (things like joints, and the different material definitions, lattices, nodes within all the app...

Regarding what I'd expect from the 1.0 release I expect what's called a "good start", more than a modeler for sure, with rendering and some animation capability, lets say a good "foundation" release of the different aspects that will make of CORE a pretty capable 3d app.

as advices i feel to give the team and Newtek,:

1) accurately and extensively document the features of the app both with docs and well done videos. It is highly required, both because it is a new app, to facilitate users coming from other apps, and, because a well documented feature is a winner point. I tell this because Lw suffers by lack of documentation in some areas.

2)marketing/advertisement here i will be very honest , i do think that marketing of newtek is actually lacking, for example, the CORE presentation was done in actual rush.
I appreciated the effort from both you, Jay, and Jonas, too, but it's not what i'd call a good presentation for a thing like CORE deserves.

My feeling is that marketing lacks a clear vision of what's best doing to promote the software, and also, gets often in rush to deliver informations. Marketing team has to be way more careful with this. sometimes is really better to wait a bit more, organize things better , take the time to make, lets say a better vid, even while the team is ahead developing more advanced tools, and deliver information putting the focus and give the needed visibility to what's there yet.
I see many companies doing these errors, btw, not only Newtek for example announcing things, then missing estimated dates, and more. Simply, the key IMHO is keeping the users informed onto development status of the app, communicate well with users, which are your faithful customers.

I could continue for a longer post, but i think clever people can undestand what i mean: invest time and energy onto a good communication with customers.

3) always develop with the artist in mind Seems obvious but's not. in fact, most of the software houses like AD and other, fail with this.

Provide to users workflows making 3D funny to do, less time consuming and possible, with logic and fast workflows, visual based interaction within the app. Consult good artists using several apps. I remember a time in which Newtek had someone like Meni working closer with the team, and this brought very nice things, like phantom points and more innovation which gave Lw a more artistic approach. Extend this vision as much as possible. :thumbsup:


For what regards Modo and the "race" Newtek/Luxology mentioned from other users, I'd say this. Modo and Lightwave are two different beasts, and , even if the market requires an aggressive approach towards making the app better and giving to users features they require, to position the app well within the market, as a company i'd focus into development.

No one fills for you you the time gap there's between a new product and a more seasoned one, be it Maya, XSI or even Modo BUT, good and well managed development and plan(as CORE seems to have) will make the app a good one, and users are interested into good products even if they come after, especially if they bring advantages in terms of workflow and features over other apps.

So, i'd not worry that much about these sort of races, and rather think to provide an app offering to the user a fun and fast experience when working with the app, in the several areas of DCC.
Making 3D is very complex. the more the app facilitates all the tasks an artist has to do, the better it is. his is the key point around which to develop

Modo, for example is a good app, but i's not Maya nor XSI. it brought some level of innovation in workflow, but it is for now out of competition because taking such a huge competition since the start is not so clever.

sorry for the long post, i hope it was a nice read however.:thumbsup:

Long but good read. I think the Modo point is one that should be looked at. Core v 1.0 is likely to have far more in options than Modo v 1.0 ever had. Modo is up to v 4.01 and still has a long way to go. I hope that when Core reaches v 4.0 we will have far more than Modo had at this stage.

Marketing, well this has and imho always been NT Achilles heal. Its used on a day to day basis on TV and in movies but there is very little mention of this. NT needs to be far more aggressive in the marketing of Core, but probably not until v 3 or maybe v 4. Once it is used in someones pipeline.

But with Jays statement of v 1.0 features things look good and if they manage to pull it off, then people will be far more confident of LW and Core future.

Cant wait to see some of these talented plugin makers get to grips with bullet, Python and the like, im sure we will have a world beating package.

Is it just me, what's with collada, ive not had very good experiences with collada, sometimes they load sometimes not. Why did NT not come up with their own format, is it hard to do. We have what we have and i will see how it fairs.

Soth
12-09-2009, 04:27 AM
Is it just me, what's with collada, ive not had very good experiences with collada, sometimes they load sometimes not. Why did NT not come up with their own format, is it hard to do. We have what we have and i will see how it fairs.

Collada is more a container then format, I think we will be fine with that.

cresshead
12-09-2009, 04:50 AM
the only real things comparible with core and modo are the price and abit of history from whre they both came from...

modo is not node based, does not have a modifier stack, lacks any real SDK, doesn't run on 3 operating systems out of the box.

looking at modo it does what it does really well, their app is quite capable but for me it just currently looks like a nice driveway...basically it looks like a dead end, what they did was to make a lightwave 1.5 and took quite a few of the limitations of the old lightwave with them in developing modo but leaving behind the ability for 3rd parties to develop plugins or scripts...and dropping the tool is just too old fashioned for me to even think about as a step in the right direction..

if luxology can ever implement a modifier stack and nodes then they#ll perk up my interst in their app...i'm too used to 3dsmax and the likes of xsi the make a step backwards.

who knows, maybe 501 will deliver a node system and modifiers as well as deformers...they maybe doing a re write as we speak.

core on release i think will not measure up side by side to modo401 which is 7+ years old now, but it will be a great platform to develop a similar 3d app in structure to houdini, maya, softimage and max but without the Autodesk tag anywhere in sigth and also with some 'lightwaveyness' still within the app.

at a simplistic level core will be like a newly born early version of maya/houdini but using current coding tech and some newtek/lightwave love in there.

V1.0 won't shatter the world but it's a good foundation to build a next gen 3d app.

i believe core's nearest app is blender2.5, i've tried the alpha/beta of blender and the u.i design looks nice but it's still a mountain to climb in using it..maybe when they get the keyshortcut selectors to include maya, max etc it will become more approachable.

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 04:56 AM
that's kinda funny don't you think? If you CANT save renders in progress ala fprime, in what sense is viper NOT "just a previewer" no matter how beautiful the result?

Kinda like going the extra mile for no reason. At all!

Also, I'm gonna press you since you ARE a modo user - in what sense does the modo previewer fall short of final render? Are there discernible DISCREPANCIES in the renders? As a user in what sense is that quote "near final" indeed fall short? And can you NOT save progressive renders in modo?



Well, I can't really talk much about VPR (not viper as you referred to it as) other then what's listed in the feature list release. Jay has asked us to refrain.

As far as Modo's preview goes, if you can save an image from it, I haven't seen it yet. There's nothing in the previewer interface for saving images like there is in the renderer. I put a comparison between the final renderer and the previewer. As you can see, its pretty durn close but you can see the discrepency in the AA near the bottom of the upright shell and in the highlight near the top. But I also let this go quite a bit longer then the 11 minutes the render took.

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 05:02 AM
Long but good read. I think the Modo point is one that should be looked at. Core v 1.0 is likely to have far more in options than Modo v 1.0 ever had. Modo is up to v 4.01 and still has a long way to go. I hope that when Core reaches v 4.0 we will have far more than Modo had at this stage.

Marketing, well this has and imho always been NT Achilles heal. Its used on a day to day basis on TV and in movies but there is very little mention of this. NT needs to be far more aggressive in the marketing of Core, but probably not until v 3 or maybe v 4. Once it is used in someones pipeline.

But with Jays statement of v 1.0 features things look good and if they manage to pull it off, then people will be far more confident of LW and Core future.

Cant wait to see some of these talented plugin makers get to grips with bullet, Python and the like, im sure we will have a world beating package.

Is it just me, what's with collada, ive not had very good experiences with collada, sometimes they load sometimes not. Why did NT not come up with their own format, is it hard to do. We have what we have and i will see how it fairs.

Well, not to bash anyone, but Modo 101 at its start was a very initial stage and very crash prone, and also just a modeler. You could hardly see where it was headed. Now after more than seven years, Luxology brought it ahead but still lacks some things i find important, like nodes, history, and a complete SDK. It brought good workflows making many things easier tho, focus is onto productiviti. yet there are areas in which u keep asking why of a certain choice.
If with CORE Newtek reaches to deliver a more solid release compared to early stages of Modo, and as i said, a good foundation for what will come next it will be very good.

As for Collada, no expert btw, but i think it can be a wise choice if this format allows users to save their contents, meshes, UVs, materials, textures and something more and be able to store them and other than workinw with CORE, import them in some simple way within other apps, and be able to import contents coming from other apps.
I do know different apps have different collada implementations, but since in many pipelines interoperability between different apps is fundamental I think in time the effort will be to make this interoperability as easy as possible.
It could require some specific plug in or other, but I think Newtek choosed Collada for good reasons.

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 05:04 AM
V1.0 won't shatter the world but it's a good foundation to build a next gen 3d app.

That's pretty much it. I don't think CORE 1 is going to be a real game changer and I certainly don't expect it to have the refinement or polish that Modo 401 has. Again, this is CORE's first version and the foundation is being laid for a very nice and a very flexible application. And this will give current Lightwave users more options then just having Lightwave alone. Will be nice to see a good dynamics implementation in Lightwave finally.

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 05:09 AM
About the preview:the preview in Modo IS the render...and you can currently see any feature previewed (volumetric lights, instances, displacements...). You can set the level of refine of the preview itself.



Yes, the previewer can display anything the render can (to the best of my knowledge) but again, Lux says that the preview renders to near final quality which is not the same as the render engine. And there are no options with the previewer to save rendererd images or sequences.

phil lawson
12-09-2009, 05:16 AM
As far as Modo's preview goes, if you can save an image from it, I haven't seen it yet. There's nothing in the previewer interface for saving images like there is in the renderer.

Click on the options button - you can save image or save a video preview from it.

Congrats to Newtek though on a very interesting list of tools and features - hopefully everything clicks together nicely for a final ver 1 release.

Cheers.

Lewis
12-09-2009, 05:18 AM
Yes, the previewer can display anything the render can (to the best of my knowledge) but again, Lux says that the preview renders to near final quality which is not the same as the render engine. And there are no options with the previewer to save rendererd images or sequences.

Interactive Renderers must "cut some corners" to be interactive so it surely will have less AA, maybe less rays and similar stuff and i believe it will be same with all of them (CORE also) to keep speed/responsiveness so in that regard modo IPR is perfect from what i could see.

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 05:24 AM
the only real things comparible with core and modo are the price and abit of history from whre they both came from...

modo is not node based, does not have a modifier stack, lacks any real SDK, doesn't run on 3 operating systems out of the box.

looking at modo it does what it does really well, their app is quite capable but for me it just currently looks like a nice driveway...basically it looks like a dead end, what they did was to make a lightwave 1.5 and took quite a few of the limitations of the old lightwave with them in developing modo but leaving behind the ability for 3rd parties to develop plugins or scripts...and dropping the tool is just too old fashioned for me to even think about as a step in the right direction..

if luxology can ever implement a modifier stack and nodes then they#ll perk up my interst in their app...i'm too used to 3dsmax and the likes of xsi the make a step backwards.

core on release i think will not measure up side by side to modo401 which is 7+ years old now, but it will be a great platform to develop a similar 3d app in structure to houdini, maya, softimage and max but without the Autodesk tag anywhere in sigth and also with some 'lightwaveyness' still within the app.

at a simplistic level core will be like a newly born early version of maya/houdini but using current coding tech and some newtek/lightwave love in there.

V1.0 won't shatter the world but it's a good foundation to build a next gen 3d app.

Agreed. To put it simple, what DCC world actually needs is an app coupling the power, flexibility opennes and programmability of apps like Maya to Houdini, to what's best for common users: ease of use and fast workflow.

It is not impossible. technology is there.
It requires a very clear vision of what DCC is and where is headed.

The charactersitics of high end apps are what's needed mainly to fit the app into larger pipelines. Even more, to make the app a good foundation for a large pipeline.And, to make the app expandable in time.

The ease of use, artistic characteristics are for users ans smaller teams, but obviously are a great advantage into whatever pipeline ad make production faster.

Lw was and still is leader in TV productions because it was fast solution to most of tasks required for those productions. Then market evolved, and level of capabilities required to make great sfx for those productions, grew in a way that now the gap between Tv sfx and movie ones is more and more blurred, and this will grow in the near future.

This requires apps joining what's best of both worlds. :agree:

Because its not enough you can program an app, mke Mels for it, etc, it has to be good out of the box with its built in tools for most of common tasks.
Then, very complex things can be obtained with scripts, code, plugins.

With a good plan, CORE has surely good possibilities to provide this to the world of DCC.

MrWyatt
12-09-2009, 06:04 AM
cool. Sounded like that's possible in modo (anyone?) but that's undeniably cool. Wouls be interesting to be modeling a glass object in such a view with raytracing on.

Jin

No, in modo you can't. you can navigate in modo's preview. you can select surfaces in it. You cannot select polygons and extrude them or select objects and apply deformers to them.
VPR is basically another view mode in any 3d viewport, and not a dedicated render preview window.

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 06:14 AM
I put a comparison between the final renderer and the previewer. As you can see, its pretty durn close but you can see the discrepency in the AA near the bottom of the upright shell and in the highlight near the top. But I also let this go quite a bit longer then the 11 minutes the render took.

Hey Hrgiger, how long did it take the previewer to get a complete image compared to the final 11 minute render??

Looking good!

Kuzey

GandB
12-09-2009, 06:29 AM
Jay,

First off, let me say congratulations on finally getting more information to the general public. We don't need to rehash what happened to the initial reveal; that horse is dead and decomposing.

The .PDF itself shows me that you are all serious about moving ahead with this. Instead of simply putting together a thread with a bunch of bulleted "updates"; you've put together a professional product that showcases current and future abilities of Core as a product. You should give your team a pat on the back for their efforts!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: DON"T FORGET ABOUT THE GAME DEVELOPERS!!

We are a billion-dollar market; since NT is basically starting anew, now would be a good time to make sure game development is in the thought process(es) of the Core developers...lest you wish AD to maintain a stranglehold on this area forever??

I'd venture to say that the two most important (used) formats for game dev are .FBX and Collada. Currently, Garage Game's Torque would benefit directly from Core's native Collada...as about as "drag and drop" as you can get. Unity supports Lightwave as well (through .FBX). Even though .X is rather archaic, it is still used...but can be handled through converters (such as Milkshape and Ultimate Unwrap 3D).


I just don't care for the way AD runs their lic. and such, and I'd much rather see them have some solid competition.
That is a statement that really resonates with me, and one of the reasons I am giving NT some more time to hash things out and get them right. It won't happen overnight; but I'd like to see the move to CORE as a new beginning, in getting studios to see there is a viable alternative to the insanity of AD.

I don't plan on ever working at a studio myself; but selling my work at a place like Turbosquid (while getting ripped off at 40% to me...) means I need the .MAX format, as it sells more. So I'm a bit stuck, as to what to do about that.

At any rate; great job in the newest "reveal"! We've finally got some news. And did I mention...don't forget the game developers? :D

-Keith

Nico75
12-09-2009, 06:30 AM
No any features about fluids or volumetrics engine in core ?
Hypervoxels are very old now...

Chuck
12-09-2009, 06:37 AM
CORE does instancing. It may have been mistakenly deleted in one of the numerous edit sessions this document went through.

To elaborate on that, you actually see an example of instancing in the PDF: the image of the tanker ships has on object and multiple instances of that object. Having the scene graph as the basic design element of the application provides instancing from the git-go.

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 06:43 AM
Jay,

And did I mention...don't forget the game developers? :D

-Keith

hehe completely agree. Game is a too HUGE and important industry to be forgotten! :agree:

IMI
12-09-2009, 06:50 AM
Nice to see some news, and it all sounds pretty cool. :thumbsup:

I'm just concerned about this line:


Multithreaded and multiprocessor aware, CORE leverages the performance of professional graphics cards to take advantage of the multi-core processing power of the GPU in addition to the CPU.


So what does this mean? "professional graphics cards" - Does this mean if I decide to buy CORE I need a Quadro just to access that power?
Will my GTX 285 not be able to take advantage of this new tech in CORE?
Just wondering because I'm not a big fan of spending a couple thousand for a video card.

robertoortiz
12-09-2009, 07:04 AM
I think this a good time to make an offer to all to join the CORE beta program.
I have been on it from almost day one, and I have to admit it has been worth it .

The frank and open communication between the developers and us is frankly unprecedented.
-R

geo_n
12-09-2009, 07:06 AM
Chuck - I sent pm. Pls check mailbox

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 07:11 AM
I think this a good time to make an offer to all to join the CORE beta program.
I have been on it from almost day one, and I have to admit it has been worth it .

The frank and open communication between the developers and us is frankly unprecedented.
-R

Newtek can run a special...join before the release of Core1 and get Core2 etc.

Kuzey

Matt
12-09-2009, 07:14 AM
I disagree with the statement that modo and CORE are different beasts, they ultimately do exactly the same thing, create 3D images.

That's not different at all. They may have different feature sets, and do things in slightly different ways, but the end result is the same.

Having used modo and CORE, my gut feeling is that both apps could end up maturing at a similar point in time, and have very similar feature sets.

At this point, what will truly become important is workflow - how fast and easy it is to get the same things done. If we're talking about modelling, modo has the edge (at the moment) this could change drastically when CORE becomes more mature and feature rich. modo used to feel quite tidy, but as things are progressing, it is becoming messier to me, they need to watch that. As will NewTek when CORE is further down the line, at the moment CORE is pretty simple, but that's because it's not finished yet, who knows how it will be at v1.0, v2.0 etc.

Also, how extensible and flexible they are as a framework. My gut feeling is CORE is in a better position than modo here. modos lack of a full SDK (whether intentional or not) and some limitations with scripting need to be addressed in order to compete with CORE on that score.

I guess the question is whether Nexus is as flexible as a development environment as we have been told, no one really knows, because no one has worked in it, or whether CORE's much more open-ended approach will win out.

CORE's structure and chosen tech I really like, and for me is the most exciting part, so long as NewTek can really nail a beautiful, clear workflow, it will certainly become a formidable opponent to many apps out there, not just modo.

It will certainly be an interesting time when both apps near each other in terms of features. Of course, you could also just use both for their strengths and not worry about it at all, as I'm pretty much doing!

Matt
12-09-2009, 07:24 AM
No, in modo you can't. you can navigate in modo's preview. you can select surfaces in it. You cannot select polygons and extrude them or select objects and apply deformers to them.
VPR is basically another view mode in any 3d viewport, and not a dedicated render preview window.

Until IPRs become so fast that you CAN work in the viewport without waiting for it to update with every modelling change, this is a pretty pointless feature IMO, sure it looks flashy, but of little practical use in the reality of day to day speedy modelling, especially on anything more complicated than simple primitives.

That's not to say this won't be useful when the day comes that this does become a reality, so it is good to have the ability even now, even though I suspect no one will really, if they are honest, work with it on all the time.

IMI
12-09-2009, 07:43 AM
I see now that my graphics card question was also asked by a few others, but with no "official" answer.
I can wait until the release to find out exactly what's up with GPU rendering and "professional" video cards, but I think it would be cool to see an official statement on the subject, and I don't see how that would be revealing too much too soon.

Not like I'm impatient, I'm just hoping the subject doesn't get buried under a whole bunch of other questions and comments. :)

Bookman
12-09-2009, 07:45 AM
hehe completely agree. Game is a too HUGE and important industry to be forgotten! :agree:


I don't think it has, I know UDK will open a .dae file saved from core with no geometry issues (other than scale differences).

to me this is the power of going with collada.

since this is Cores Native format 3rd party developers could write a host of plugins for working with Core and game engines that use Collada. I would love to see a "Go-UDK" type plugin between core and Unreal. a plugin Writer could probably make a fortune doing that.

the future is bright on that side of things.

Speedmonk42
12-09-2009, 07:47 AM
I see now that my graphics card question was also asked by a few others, but with no "official" answer.
I can wait until the release to find out exactly what's up with GPU rendering and "professional" video cards, but I think it would be cool to see an official statement on the subject, and I don't see how that would be revealing too much too soon.

Not like I'm impatient, I'm just hoping the subject doesn't get buried under a whole bunch of other questions and comments. :)

I have no idea but I will guess something.... the Pro cards would be primarily used for interactivity. Rendering you would probably farm out to multiple cards of the prosumer variety since you could buy 3 for 1.

That is if there is any rendering happening at all in this cycle. If there was, I can't imagine that not slipping out.

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 07:49 AM
I disagree with the statement that modo and CORE are different beasts, they ultimately do exactly the same thing, create 3D images.

That's not different at all. They may have different feature sets, and do things in slightly different ways, but the end result is the same.

Having used modo and CORE, my gut feeling is that both apps could end up maturing at a similar point in time, and have very similar feature sets.

At this point, what will truly become important is workflow - how fast and easy it is to get the same things done. If we're talking about modelling, modo has the edge (at the moment) this could change drastically when CORE becomes more mature and feature rich. modo used to feel quite tidy, but as things are progressing, it is becoming messier to me, they need to watch that. As will NewTek when CORE is further down the line, at the moment CORE is pretty simple, but that's because it's not finished yet, who knows how it will be at v1.0, v2.0 etc.

Also, how extensible and flexible they are as a framework. My gut feeling is CORE is in a better position than modo here. modos lack of a full SDK (whether intentional or not) and some limitations with scripting need to be addressed in order to compete with CORE on that score.

I guess the question is whether Nexus is as flexible as a development environment as we have been told, no one really knows, because no one has worked in it, or whether CORE's much more open-ended approach will win out.

CORE's structure and chosen tech I really like, and for me is the most exciting part, so long as NewTek can really nail a beautiful, clear workflow, it will certainly become a formidable opponent to many apps out there, not just modo.

It will certainly be an interesting time when both apps near each other in terms of features. Of course, you could also just use both for their strengths and not worry about it at all, as I'm pretty much doing!

Well, from a technological POV the end result will be similar, 3D images and animations, but there's a huge difference between a structure exploiting parametric nodes, operators and other technologies to allow more flexibility and what's provided by Modo now.

In this sense I said they are 2 different beasts.

They very probably have a different inner structure thus allowing tools to behave into a different way.
For example: tool pipe is not a modifier stack, but a tool to combine different options provided by the app and make tools behave differently.

BTW i agree about workflow and also the Nexus question.

Workflow and ergonomics are fundamental for a 3d app, and Modo has the merit to make this very noticeable.

It is very important how an app goes towards the user instead of making the user totally wrap his head around a logic which in many times is too technical, good for a programmer but not for an artist.

About complexity: totally true. 3D is very complex and composed by several areas that also aren't totally separated, in a non linear workflow.
Very difficult to make an app and not to end with a mess somewhere :D

But, fortunately, Nt has also users like you with cool ideas about UIs and workflow to be taken into account !!!:agree:

as for Modo and Nexus: we do know very little if not anything about Nexus technology we also don't know if Lux has projected Nexus to be able to add to Modo, for the future, things like nodes or other fundamental technologies. We can only judge from what we see now.

IMO, it would be rather unclever having based the whole app upon linear structure, as it appears to be.

Just because, you can provide me dream like workflows, but flexibility at the base, (differently from linear which would be a bottleneck) would allow me to enhance existing nodes with new parameters or introduce total new type of node to be exploited and have this to reflect instantly to the entire toolset.

MacDoggie
12-09-2009, 07:51 AM
Hmmm Jin, I was really waiting for your 'the good, the bad, and the ugly' post.:)

Just a few thoughts of my own in this arena.... As both a user of Lightwave/CORE and Modo 401.
As far as setup, are you talking about rigging? In the PDF, it does tell you that CORE has IK and skeleton (joint) animation but that the first version of CORE will not have a skinning method so in that sense, its similar to the current capabilities of Modo 401. It does appear too that CORE will be able to animate modeling operations which Modo doesn't do. But I won't make too much of a comparision because honestly, I haven't really gotten into the animation tools in 401 yet. Michael Blackbourn would be much better equipped to comment on that (Modo I mean, CORE is still undergoing changes).
MDD is important to this version of CORE in particular because of the link between Lightwave HC and CORE. With it, we'll be able to use the bullet physics dynamics and bring the motions into Lightwave HC for rendering there if we wish.
As far as any race between Modo and CORE..... well, as you pointed out, it has taken Modo several versions (and years) to get to where its at now. This is CORE's first real year of development and so while Modo certainly is a more polished and refined application at this point, its really hard to compare the two because CORE is still in beta and may undergo much more change before its released in the next 3 or 4 months. Personally for me, I think CORE has taken a better approach to building an application. Focused on making an SDK available upon release, modifier stack, an interactive renderer which is actually the same as the underlying render engine and not just a previewer, a node based application....

Hmmm yes good points and as a user of both as well (for now LW expat) I am going to wait and see. I really like Core's interface and the foundation does seem to be in place. However, reading a feature list is one thing, booting it up and taking it for a spin will be another. Frankly, I think it will rock but will take quite a bit of work as anything of quality usually does. Nevertheless I am excited and looking forward to see what NT will have to offer. I migrated to Modo primarily because of the Modelling and the UV mapping capabilities and have grown to have a healthy respect for what Luxology has done. IMO I do feel that they have perhaps taken a bit longer than they should have to rectify some issues that were plaguing Modo's performance and development but it seems that they have had some success. I am certain that NT will eventually deliver a great product and the feature list looks great. We will just have to wait and see. NT's Development team (the actual coders) are some of the best I have seen and the latest version of LW does reflect what can be done, especially with an aging decrepit architecture.

It will be interesting to see just how Modo and LW develop. As a user of both and one who has developed a great appreciation for both I personally will use the app that best suits my needs. Lw is still our choice for animating. For stills Modo is gaining ground as well. It is just so easy to set up and quality results are easy to acquire. The shader Tree IMO is still a bit clunky but I can see the merit in it's approach. Instancing is there in Modo by default, I don't have to buy a commercial plug in to do what should be native to the application. All I can say about instancing in LW by default ... It's about time! Glad to see it :thumbsup: I have started learning Modo's methodology for animation and while I prefer LW's workflow (something I hope is not thrown out) I can see the potential in Modo's approach. But I have just started learning animation in Modo so it is really too soon to tell. I am also glad to see that there is finally a (proposed) previewer that has the (proposed) demographics listed. Viper should have been like this a long time ago. About time.. good idea, I'm game!!:thumbsup:

Nevertheless, I certainly feel LW can and will get there. Looking forward to it. In the meantime .... I'm covered! I have and use both each have their strengths, each have their weaknesses. Although these days it's getting harder and harder to determine just whom is carrying whom:hey::hey: But, it's all good!

Cheers

serge
12-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Exciting news. It's more than I expected (that is if this list of features will work properly in Q1 of course).


I'm probably not the only one who considers buying CORE for it's dynamics engine alone. However, a dynamics engine isn't complete without dynamic objects like gravity and wind. So,

1) Will there be anything of the like (gravity and wind) in V1, and if not, is this a priority?

2) Can Bullet attributes be texture and weightmap driven.

3) Will the Bullet engine be 'nodally integrated' in CORE V1?

Matt
12-09-2009, 08:12 AM
But, fortunately, Nt has also users like you with cool ideas about UIs and workflow to be taken into account !!!:agree:

Assuming they are taken into account.

However, my word is not Gospel, believe me!

Mike_RB
12-09-2009, 08:13 AM
One thing to remember guys. It's not a competition between modo and core. Lux has chosen to not go toe to toe against maya, xsi, and houdini. They are continuing the old LW tradition of 'slap it together, get it done' that was their vision from the old LW days, with some of the negative that that brings with it (depending on what types of work your doing).

I don't think they ever set out to build modo into a visual programming language for feature film effects (Houdini). So I think as both apps move forward they will continue to occupy difference niches. Modo may become a force for 'get er done' but will probably still have limitations around it for the people who are houdini heads. What Core should be targeting is things the like professional features and flexibility of Mantra or how flexible it is to build dynamics networks with DOP's. Thats the competition.

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 08:15 AM
PDF is well written and the format sits nice , I printed out a copy and left it on my bosses desk "think he will get the hint "

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 08:15 AM
Assuming they are taken into account.

well, i hope feedback is appreciated, and if worth, applied!



Assuming However, my word is not Gospel, believe me!

I totally believe you !! :D

Bookman
12-09-2009, 08:18 AM
PDF is well written and the format sits nice , I printed out a copy and left it on my bosses desk "think he will get the hint "

lol most of my bosses in the past would not understand the document. :)

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 08:19 AM
!

There can be only 1 Banned User on this forum :D kiddin

JohnMarchant
12-09-2009, 08:27 AM
Thanks for the answers on collada. Didnt know really much about it. Got some meshes from google sketchup repository and to be honest 50 % would not load in LW or DE.

Hopefully it will be better for us Core'ers

lwaddict
12-09-2009, 08:31 AM
lol most of my bosses in the past would not understand the document. :)


LOL, my boss approved the purchased for Q1 just based on the output they've recieved since Version 8.

I honestly don't think they read the PDF when I sent it either, just a lot of "Uh hmm, well ok then"s. LOL.

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 08:36 AM
LOL, my boss approved the purchased for Q1 just based on the output they've recieved since Version 8.

I honestly don't think they read the PDF when I sent it either, just a lot of "Uh hmm, well ok then"s. LOL.

Theres was massive argument a few weeks ago between staff and management aka bean pushers , We have educational leicences and tbh the do cost a fortune , not as much as photoshop but its still alot of pennies . . but several things got brought up before I snapped .

what about teaching Blender as standard was one of them .
or 3DC " is that for animating I asked " ............


argh the future dosn't look too great for LW at our place I'm hoping Core will grab them by the balls and kick them into the 21st century .

cresshead
12-09-2009, 09:00 AM
Theres was massive argument a few weeks ago between staff and management aka bean pushers , We have educational leicences and tbh the do cost a fortune , not as much as photoshop but its still alot of pennies . . but several things got brought up before I snapped .

what about teaching Blender as standard was one of them .
or 3DC " is that for animating I asked " ............


argh the future dosn't look too great for LW at our place I'm hoping Core will grab them by the balls and kick them into the 21st century .

just to shine a light [or more likely put a torch to it!] on autodesk..they raised the subscription cost last year 27% on 3dsmax and now plan to make upgrades cost 50% of the total retail price of max if you miss a single upgrade if your not on subs...this is due to come into effect in march 2010.

so just to hilight that the running costs of 3d apps is on the rise, i still firmly feel that the subs on 3dsmax is good value, i'd not go down the route of paid upgrades.

most companies are now looking to subsscription model even training companies like digital tutors and 3dbuzz are using that model...it gives them a known baseline budget to work with.

the subs on core [hardcore membership] give you early access to the developing app of core and lightwave HC plus you get to help steer newtek in a direction somewhat with user input on the latest builds.

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 09:35 AM
it's a complete nightmare trying to work out what's best for the pupils and whats best for the college managment. technically the college is classed as a charity so funding can be a touchy subject ,most is supplied by the goverment/ private .

try explaining to them it cost 70k for 4 years for software , it never goes down well .

Larry_g1s
12-09-2009, 09:40 AM
the issue is how quickly viktor can implement as version for core.

jinI don't think that'll be an issue for him. :thumbsup:

JohnMarchant
12-09-2009, 09:42 AM
I don't think that'll be an issue for him. :thumbsup:

He is already on the case as im lead to believe as is sensei i think

cresshead
12-09-2009, 09:47 AM
it's a complete nightmare trying to work out what's best for the pupils and whats best for the college managment. technically the college is classed as a charity so funding can be a touchy subject ,most is supplied by the goverment/ private .

try explaining to them it cost 70k for 4 years for software , it never goes down well .

as free as blender is no one uses it in studios and job markets..so if your college is a gateway into industry [games/film/tv/adverts/pos/arch tech/products] then the likes of blender is a bad idea [currently] to teach them.

industry>>> max, maya, lightwave, sketchup, zbrush, cinema4d, modo houdini and softimage.

everyting else is outside the big picture...silo,daz,wings3d,hexagon,blender,hash,vu e,bryce,poser,formz etc..

MacDoggie
12-09-2009, 09:52 AM
Sure, throw some radiousity at it as well for extra coolness.

I have not used other interactive renderers so i honestly do not know how it compares.

Very doable in Modo at the present. FPrime Does have the ability to save out previews (something Modo doesn't) How ever, you are comparing F-Prime to a basic previewer in Modo.... F-Prime is more than that, it's a rendering engine and a dammed good one despite the fact that it was denied access to post rendering shaders. Has that changed?? As a matter of fact F-Prime was our renderer of choice in LW till the enhancements ot the native rendering engine. However IMO this is where the realm of "third Party" takes over as an "enhancement" as opposed to offering a half baked solution such as viper and "schelping off" the rest to third party then using viper as a talking point for sales. If what is being proposed works as advertised then it will be a welcome boon to LW and I for one will be glad to see it. For now Modo's previewer is very impressive. Would I consider the quality suitable for a final render?... Absolutely not ... it's a previewer not a rendering engine. Although what you see is very close to what you get in Modo... very close. I am very glad to see this issue being addressed. Looks good on paper I am hoping it will look even better in reality.:thumbsup:

MacDoggie
12-09-2009, 10:12 AM
One thing to remember guys. It's not a competition between modo and core. Lux has chosen to not go toe to toe against maya, xsi, and houdini. They are continuing the old LW tradition of 'slap it together, get it done' that was their vision from the old LW days, with some of the negative that that brings with it (depending on what types of work your doing).

I don't think they ever set out to build modo into a visual programming language for feature film effects (Houdini). So I think as both apps move forward they will continue to occupy difference niches. Modo may become a force for 'get er done' but will probably still have limitations around it for the people who are houdini heads. What Core should be targeting is things the like professional features and flexibility of Mantra or how flexible it is to build dynamics networks with DOP's. Thats the competition.

Excellent post Mike!

After using Modo for awhile, (and while I don't by any stretch of the imagination consider myself a power user) I can certainly see the differences between the two. Truth is they both compliment each other very well. I still feel that Luxology is a bit torn as to just where they want to fit in. Personally, i feel Lux should finish out and "finalize" the offerings that are in place before "piling on yet another layer of more features that are themselves yet to be finished. I think you know what I am talking about.

I know some might say, "well, what constitutes finished? So your statement is invalid."

Perhaps but IMO having a smaller toolset that is SOLID is in some ways better than having a vast tool set that is halfbaked. Does make for a rich environment for third party though eh?? Nevertheless, I agree totally with your perspective on this... Fear not the Modo :thumbsup:

Cheers

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 10:25 AM
as free as blender is no one uses it in studios and job markets..so if your college is a gateway into industry [games/film/tv/adverts/pos/arch tech/products] then the likes of blender is a bad idea [currently] to teach them.


I totaly agree but for how long before it does ????????????

its moving fast !


anyway back to CORE ...............ye it rulez

jgatter
12-09-2009, 10:37 AM
I
At this point, what will truly become important is workflow - how fast and easy it is to get the same things done. If we're talking about modelling, modo has the edge (at the moment) this could change drastically when CORE becomes more mature and feature rich. modo used to feel quite tidy, but as things are progressing, it is becoming messier to me, they need to watch that. As will NewTek when CORE is further down the line, at the moment CORE is pretty simple, but that's because it's not finished yet, who knows how it will be at v1.0, v2.0 etc.



The more features that modo adds without adding a nodal workflow, the more the app will start to seem like old LW, and suffer from same falts. Modo took the wrong road in my eyes... and lux has made enough money on the wrong road that there is no changing roads at this point. Modo will never be any competition for the major apps... It will be the LW classic replacement.

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 10:38 AM
youv'e got to admit sometimes LW just kicks *** ! :D

drako
12-09-2009, 10:40 AM
CORE IS GREAT.......

But i didnt read about particles and i mean real based node particles with
interaction such as N-Cloth and i didnt read about fluids.
I think that :newtek:NT has make a very big CHANGE and thats true.
But the other softwares running too fast and NT really has to run more to be placed in a good position inside the 3d market.Sometimes when i want fluids i run to Maya but i m very dissapointed when i see my core software that it is a professional software and doesn t support fluids technology.And i mean real technology based in the core of Lightwave.
Dynamite was good but not enough.

I have see CORE and i m very excited but as an artist i want to have same
tools such as other artists have....
Also as an artist i know that a tool is just a tool so if an artist wants more
sometimes he leave his tool for other for make his creation.
One is sure that I DONT WANT TO LEAVE LIGHTWAVE.........:lwicon:

:thumbsup:
KEEP ON THE GOOD WORK NT GUYS....

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 10:47 AM
Excellent post Mike!

After using Modo for awhile, (and while I don't by any stretch of the imagination consider myself a power user) I can certainly see the differences between the two. Truth is they both compliment each other very well. I still feel that Luxology is a bit torn as to just where they want to fit in. Personally, i feel Lux should finish out and "finalize" the offerings that are in place before "piling on yet another layer of more features that are themselves yet to be finished. I think you know what I am talking about.

I know some might say, "well, what constitutes finished? So your statement is invalid."

Perhaps but IMO having a smaller toolset that is SOLID is in some ways better than having a vast tool set that is halfbaked. Does make for a rich environment for third party though eh?? Nevertheless, I agree totally with your perspective on this... Fear not the Modo :thumbsup:

Cheers

Actually, there are many apps out there, Modo is just one of them.

It is useful to take inspiration from all the major apps out there to not reinvent the wheel, implementing what will bring the more advantages in the future, useful to investigate what's needed to make DCC better, funnier and easier its useful to be inspired from what is good in Lightwave as well in terms of certain workflows.

Regarding the "finished" concept.
I'd focus more on the concept of a "complete" app. it is never "finished".

And it is complete when you can do Modelling, scene setup and lighting, UV and texturing, rigging, CA and common animation preferably non linear, rendering, some compositing, and dynamics. Then you can also add hair, painting(which is texturing) and sculpting to the field, but those aren't fundamental, at an initial stage.

implementing these features, and refine them, making them grow in time, thinking to better workflows is the job to do, so no time to have fear of anything out there. :thumbsup:

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 10:59 AM
CORE IS GREAT.......

newtek:NT has make a very big CHANGE and thats true.
But the other softwares running too fast and NT really has to run more to be placed in a good position inside the 3d market.lwicon:

....

I think that's true to some degree but again NT / there developers can only do so much . ..

its like giving a racing car to your wee granny .
it needs to be in the right hands at the right time , its up to us aka the user to develope LW/Core further , push the software , crash it and burn it . . .
show of its talants / capacity .............
Im glad ,there's some damn good artist here and I'm sure they will beast the product to its full . . and yes everyone needs fluids sim ,but I'm sure that it will come ,it has too .

Peace

CGI Addict
12-09-2009, 11:07 AM
Very doable in Modo at the present. FPrime Does have the ability to save out previews (something Modo doesn't)

You can save previews in Modo, click on the options tab and scroll down to "Save View".

Excited for Core, it's looking very promising.

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 11:11 AM
I wanna make CSS skin !

Bookman
12-09-2009, 11:14 AM
CORE IS GREAT.......

But i didnt read about particles and i mean real based node particles with
interaction such as N-Cloth and i didnt read about fluids.
I think that :newtek:NT has make a very big CHANGE and thats true.
But the other softwares running too fast and NT really has to run more to be placed in a good position inside the 3d market.Sometimes when i want fluids i run to Maya but i m very dissapointed when i see my core software that it is a professional software and doesn t support fluids technology.And i mean real technology based in the core of Lightwave.
Dynamite was good but not enough.

I have see CORE and i m very excited but as an artist i want to have same
tools such as other artists have....
Also as an artist i know that a tool is just a tool so if an artist wants more
sometimes he leave his tool for other for make his creation.
One is sure that I DONT WANT TO LEAVE LIGHTWAVE.........:lwicon:

:thumbsup:
KEEP ON THE GOOD WORK NT GUYS....

you should read up on what Bullet can do now and is planning for the future.

that being said Core is being as rapidly developed by NT as I think is possible and I would not be surprised if 3rd party's came in to quickly fill in a lot of the gaps missing in 1.0.

drako
12-09-2009, 11:15 AM
i agree OnlineRender
But sometimes you want to boost your racing car but you cant even reach
the other.Its like a race between a VolksWagen GT against a FERRARI.Even if you are
the best driver you cant reach the other driver.
Thats why i need same tools as other softwares has in the same category,for producing
killing work out of the box.
In the other I have learn that limited softwares teach the user to break down his brain
and to be more creative than other software users.Thats why a lot of LW Users we are
Generalists...
I know that is up to us to push Lightwave ahead....thats why i need more.....

phil lawson
12-09-2009, 11:17 AM
Very doable in Modo at the present. FPrime Does have the ability to save out previews (something Modo doesn't)

You can as I mentioned earlier in this thread - both stills and a video preview, all accessed via the options button.

Cheers.

drako
12-09-2009, 11:29 AM
Jim wrote -- you should read up on what Bullet can do now and is planning for the future.

I have read some recent articles in the official site of Bullet but i didnt read anything about particles or fluids Jim.If you have some news gimme me the link.
I really love your reel...:thumbsup:

Matt
12-09-2009, 11:31 AM
I wanna make CSS skin !

If you need any help, gimme a shout.

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 11:31 AM
The only thing you missed out on the PDF document was the Credits , I would be nice to say thanks to the people that wrote / developed the WHOLE application :D


EDIT CODERS are unsung heros !

Nemoid
12-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Very doable in Modo at the present. FPrime Does have the ability to save out previews (something Modo doesn't) How ever, you are comparing F-Prime to a basic previewer in Modo.... F-Prime is more than that, it's a rendering engine and a dammed good one despite the fact that it was denied access to post rendering shaders. Has that changed?? As a matter of fact F-Prime was our renderer of choice in LW till the enhancements ot the native rendering engine. However IMO this is where the realm of "third Party" takes over as an "enhancement" as opposed to offering a half baked solution such as viper and "schelping off" the rest to third party then using viper as a talking point for sales. If what is being proposed works as advertised then it will be a welcome boon to LW and I for one will be glad to see it. For now Modo's previewer is very impressive. Would I consider the quality suitable for a final render?... Absolutely not ... it's a previewer not a rendering engine. Although what you see is very close to what you get in Modo... very close. I am very glad to see this issue being addressed. Looks good on paper I am hoping it will look even better in reality.:thumbsup:

the difference between F prime and Modo render preview is that it's a complete rendering engine and it offers possibility of resume rendering, and in that way you can save an initial preview, then refine it later, saving time.
Modo's is a good preview of the built in render engine, but i don't think it offers render resume possibilities. It does offers bucket rendering, tho.

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 11:33 AM
If you need any help, gimme a shout.

yeah a code template skin would be nice :)

instead of speed moddelling challenge make a skin challenge :D

Matt
12-09-2009, 11:42 AM
yeah a code template skin would be nice :)

instead of speed moddelling challenge make a skin challenge :D

I'm currently working on a new version of one of my previous themes, which is looking much neater. Once the next build comes out I will tidy up the CSS, comment the heck out of it, and send it out in the world for all to play with, along with a few videos to explain some of the gotchas when dealing with certain aspects of targetting some of the UI elements.

Edit: This will clearly be posted on the HC forum, unless NewTek say it's okay to put it out elsewhere (which would be useless to anyone else anyway, as they won't have CORE to play with).

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm currently working on a new version of one of my previous themes, which is looking much neater. Once the next build comes out I will tidy up the CSS, comment the heck out of it, and send it out in the world for all to play with, along with a few videos to explain some of the gotchas when dealing with certain aspects of targetting some of the UI elements.

Edit: This will clearly be posted on the HC forum, unless NewTek say it's okay to put it out elsewhere (which would be useless to anyone else anyway, as they won't have CORE to play with).

Champion , Have some MANLOVE or as some now call it BROMANCE :dance:

Matt
12-09-2009, 12:04 PM
Champion , Have some MANLOVE or as some now call it BROMANCE :dance:

Oooooooh thanks! :D

jayroth
12-09-2009, 12:05 PM
I'm currently working on a new version of one of my previous themes, which is looking much neater. Once the next build comes out I will tidy up the CSS, comment the heck out of it, and send it out in the world for all to play with, along with a few videos to explain some of the gotchas when dealing with certain aspects of targetting some of the UI elements.

Edit: This will clearly be posted on the HC forum, unless NewTek say it's okay to put it out elsewhere (which would be useless to anyone else anyway, as they won't have CORE to play with).

HC only, please.

Matt
12-09-2009, 12:12 PM
HC only, please.

Awwww spoil sport! :p

No, I gathered as much, no problem. :)

StereoMike
12-09-2009, 12:22 PM
HC only, please.
You wonder how fast they respond sometimes. :P

Thanks for the great update on core. Any nice offer coming up?

mike

flashover
12-09-2009, 12:23 PM
No any features about fluids or volumetrics engine in core ?
Hypervoxels are very old now...

I would like some information, plz.

jin choung
12-09-2009, 12:27 PM
as free as blender is no one uses it in studios and job markets..so if your college is a gateway into industry [games/film/tv/adverts/pos/arch tech/products] then the likes of blender is a bad idea [currently] to teach them.

industry>>> max, maya, lightwave, sketchup, zbrush, cinema4d, modo houdini and softimage.


to be more precise, the job market is really max and maya (and for modelers, zb and mudbox are just about mandatory now). if the idea is getting a job, those would be the only apps to recommend to a student.

but it's not true that blender is not being used professionally at all, just as it is clearly incorrect to say that lw isn't. and of course, it's not used in as many places as lw currently is but it seems to be gaining ground.

http://www.blendernation.com/3-new-bridgestone-commercials-by-promotion-studios/

jin

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 12:30 PM
Click on the options button - you can save image or save a video preview from it.


Cheers.

Ok, thanks for that Phil. I didn't know if offered the option. Well that makes it one point better for me then although considering how long it takes to refine to the near final quality(as I showed earlier in the thread), I might as well just render it and save that. I'm sure that varies by the scene though.

EDIT: And I see you just posted before me Jin. There you go too, you can save out the render preview to a file.

Wickster
12-09-2009, 12:34 PM
yeah a code template skin would be nice :)

instead of speed moddelling challenge make a skin challenge :D
Oh you have got to see the "Kitty" theme. It is probably the best theme to show off CORE's thme customizability. lol.

jin choung
12-09-2009, 12:36 PM
I disagree with the statement that modo and CORE are different beasts, they ultimately do exactly the same thing, create 3D images.

That's not different at all. They may have different feature sets, and do things in slightly different ways, but the end result is the same.


i totally agree here.

they are indeed not totally different beasts. and what is not seen (under the hood) counts for nothing. meaning, it must have direct and tangible workflow benefits to the user - which i am sure they are working on.

so comparisons will be made. and the competition benefits us.

so good times.

jin

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 12:38 PM
Hey Hrgiger, how long did it take the previewer to get a complete image compared to the final 11 minute render??

Looking good!

Kuzey

You know that's the modo renderer and previewer right and not CORE? I don't want to cause any confusion over that. I didn't time it but I started the preview, let it clear up some, started the 11 minute render, and then let it clear up some more for about 2 more minutes or so after the render stopped so I'm guessing about 13 or so minutes?

zarti
12-09-2009, 12:44 PM
The only thing you missed out on the PDF document was the Credits , I would be nice to say thanks to the people that wrote / developed the WHOLE application :D


EDIT CODERS are unsung heros !

:agree: that is soooo true! they are really making a hard and great work.

Wickster
12-09-2009, 12:50 PM
He is already on the case as im lead to believe as is sensei i think
And to add to this (which I hope it's OK with NT for me to mention) there are already plugins being developed and finished for CORE as we speak. The developers among us have been happy coding away smaple plugins in the HC area. All these are being done with the current SDK that is supposedly not at its final form.

Ofcourse I not refering to plugins that at the level of FPrime, LWCAD or even close to those (the ones I've seen at least). These are just tests by HC member individuals to get the hang of new SDK. Nevertheless, some really cool plugins were created from their testing/playing process. Add to the fact that the development team is always on hand to answer questions, provide solutions and examples for them, really gives a positive image of CORE's plugin developement future.

lino.grandi
12-09-2009, 01:01 PM
I disagree with the statement that modo and CORE are different beasts, they ultimately do exactly the same thing, create 3D images.

That's not different at all. They may have different feature sets, and do things in slightly different ways, but the end result is the same.



Sure....the final result is just an image.

So we can say Lightwave, Maya, Modo, Houdini, Cinema4D, Max, XSI are just the same beasts considering the final result. But HOW you get there....that makes them VERY different beasts.
Modo is a very cool application. Everything works as expected. What I think is that Core nodal approach lets the user go deeper and deeper, especially considering future Rigging and Animation/FX tasks.

While working in Modo I miss LW nodal system both in surfacing/shading and displacement.

Real time OpenGL displacement in LW is a must (Modo doesn't show procedural textures displacing geometry).

I like very much where Lightwave is going with Core (as I like Modo for different reasons).

Matt
12-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Sure....the final result is just an image.

So we can say Lightwave, Maya, Modo, Houdini, Cinema4D, Max, XSI are just the same beasts considering the final result. But HOW you get there....that makes them VERY different beasts.

This is why I mentioned workflow in my post.

jasonwestmas
12-09-2009, 01:18 PM
I disagree with the statement that modo and CORE are different beasts, they ultimately do exactly the same thing, create 3D images.

That's not different at all. They may have different feature sets, and do things in slightly different ways, but the end result is the same.

Having used modo and CORE, my gut feeling is that both apps could end up maturing at a similar point in time, and have very similar feature sets.

At this point, what will truly become important is workflow - how fast and easy it is to get the same things done. If we're talking about modelling, modo has the edge (at the moment) this could change drastically when CORE becomes more mature and feature rich. modo used to feel quite tidy, but as things are progressing, it is becoming messier to me, they need to watch that. As will NewTek when CORE is further down the line, at the moment CORE is pretty simple, but that's because it's not finished yet, who knows how it will be at v1.0, v2.0 etc.

Also, how extensible and flexible they are as a framework. My gut feeling is CORE is in a better position than modo here. modos lack of a full SDK (whether intentional or not) and some limitations with scripting need to be addressed in order to compete with CORE on that score.

I guess the question is whether Nexus is as flexible as a development environment as we have been told, no one really knows, because no one has worked in it, or whether CORE's much more open-ended approach will win out.

CORE's structure and chosen tech I really like, and for me is the most exciting part, so long as NewTek can really nail a beautiful, clear workflow, it will certainly become a formidable opponent to many apps out there, not just modo.

It will certainly be an interesting time when both apps near each other in terms of features. Of course, you could also just use both for their strengths and not worry about it at all, as I'm pretty much doing!

I partly agree but not completely. Since when does the word "beast" imply that Core and Modo are the same because the end result is similar.;D I can get similar results with Lightwave as I can with any other application but that doesn't mean the inner workings and nature of the "beast" are the same. We have to pick a context here. An Ox and a Horse can both pull a load but that doesn't mean the load gets pulled the same way. Otherwise we might as well just lump more than just core and modo into the same pile.

I see Modo as being more of a fixed environment that will change much slower than Core will but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. In Modo I can get more predictable results because it seems to be a more controlled in-house environment. I see Core being much more flexible and open to 3rd parties but that can be both good and bad. It's good for more advanced users that want to push the envelope enabling more control for the User. Bad for smaller projects that want to get things accomplished without a larger learning curve.

I'm looking rather far into the future but with the open-end control (Nodes that control everything, and the more flexible SDK) that newtek is promoting with Core, things could get really convoluted, really quick. I can just imagine 10 ways to do exactly the same thing (Sounds like Max but even more involved). I'm seeing Core's workflow getting rather cluttered even with nice organization and a nice UI; Then we will get something cleaned up later down the road. Modo is not going to have as much of an issue with this because it is such a straight forward controlled piece of software ime. By controlled I ultimately mean modo has less options with the tools (Though they are powerful there will be less change) and that will be more predictable than Core's workflow will be. Granted I could be wrong and NT will put on a new face about how to control what gets put into their Core Package. With NT in the past, it's always been "ooo wow, that guy looks cool lets hire him to put his stuff in our software." That kind of thinking has worked out well. . .sometimes. Personally, I have to frown on the act of holding onto old architecture more than the coders themselves. Oh Well things are looking pretty good now anyway, lots of great decisions being made.

jasonwestmas
12-09-2009, 01:22 PM
Is this Rag Tag on Matt Day!?

jgatter
12-09-2009, 01:30 PM
I partly agree but not completely. Since when does the word "beast" imply that Core and Modo are the same because the end result is similar.;D I can get similar results with Lightwave as I can with any other application but that doesn't mean the inner workings and nature of the "beast" are the same. We have to pick a context here. An Ox and a Horse can both pull a load but that doesn't mean the load gets pulled the same way. Otherwise we might as well just lump more than just core and modo into the same pile.

I see Modo as being more of a fixed environment that will change much slower than Core will but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. In Modo I can get more predictable results because it seems to be a more controlled in-house environment. I see Core being much more flexible and open to 3rd parties but that can be both good and bad. It's good for more advanced users that want to push the envelope enabling more control for the User. Bad for smaller projects that want to get things accomplished without a larger learning curve.

I'm looking rather far into the future but with the open-end control (Nodes that control everything, and the more flexible SDK) that newtek is promoting with Core, things could get really convoluted, really quick. I can just imagine 10 ways to do exactly the same thing (Sounds like Max but even more involved). I'm seeing Core's workflow getting rather cluttered even with nice organization and a nice UI; Then we will get something cleaned up later down the road. Modo is not going to have as much of an issue with this because it is such a straight forward controlled piece of software ime. By controlled I ultimately mean modo has less options with the tools (Though they are powerful there will be less change) and that will be more predictable than Core's workflow will be. Granted I could be wrong and NT will put on a new face about how to control what gets put into their Core Package. With NT in the past, it's always been "ooo wow, that guy looks cool lets hire him to put his stuff in our software." That kind of thinking has worked out well. . .sometimes. Personally, I have to frown on the act of holding onto old architecture more than the coders themselves. Oh Well things are looking pretty good now anyway, lots of great decisions being made.

I disagree completely with your thoughts of nodal vrs modos workflow.

I think you have things reversed... The more features modo adds without a unified interface... the more LW classic it will become. It already has in my opinion to many workflows that have completly different interfaces.

In short, I think you are very wrong in your assessment of nodes vrs modo...

jasonwestmas
12-09-2009, 01:41 PM
I disagree completely with your thoughts of nodal vrs modos workflow.

I think you have things reversed... The more features modo adds without a unified interface... the more LW classic it will become. It already has in my opinion to many workflows that have completly different interfaces.

In short, I think you are very wrong in your assessment of nodes vrs modo...

But Luxology still has control over the UI/interface. They will be forced to clean it up. The foundational code of Modo is nothing at all like Classic lightwave so it will be more flexible and easier to do fixes. Modo just took some good ideas from modeler, that's all, the modo code is much more advanced.

My point was ACCESIBILITY to Modo verses Core via SDK and the nodal workflow, not the interface.

jgatter
12-09-2009, 01:48 PM
But Luxology still has control over the UI/interface. They will be forced to clean it up. The foundational code of Modo is nothing at all like Classic lightwave so it will be more flexible and easier to do fixes. Modo just took some good ideas from modeler, that's all, the modo code is much more advanced.

My point was ACCESIBILITY to Modo verses Core via SDK and the nodal workflow, not the interface.

I know the underlying code is much different, but the thought process that is going behind the workflows is the same. They will have a bunch of different tools that perform a bunch of differnet tasks all with there own workflow. IMO a single environment that can access all aspects of all tools in one interface is a much better workflow. It may be harder to learn at first, but the power will be 100 fold...

jasonwestmas
12-09-2009, 01:52 PM
I know the underlying code is much different, but the thought process that is going behind the workflows is the same. They will have a bunch of different tools that perform a bunch of differnet tasks all with there own workflow. IMO a single environment that can access all aspects of all tools in one interface is a much better workflow. It may be harder to learn at first, but the power will be 100 fold...

I agree with that but with much power comes much responsibility. I hope NT is up to it. I see Lux as having less power at their disposal and that these are just trade offs between applications. I'm not implying that one workflow is better than the other is just that a program can become either too restrictive or too convoluted. It's a balancing act. :)

And my original point was that Core and Modo are indeed different kinds of animals.

zarti
12-09-2009, 01:55 PM
imo and in few words;
core and modo are a lot different from each other. this may not obvious today but i believe the day we will understand that is not far. core is another story. a small but significant argument is the fact that many here didn't expect other features but only modeling.

nodes and modifier stack will affect dramatically the way we (lwrs) are used to work. that will affect even thinking itself. speed, as we know it here today, will be surpassed by flexibility which in our profession means; POWER. ... and we are not modelers only.

jgatter
12-09-2009, 02:00 PM
I agree with that but with much power comes much responsibility. I hope NT is up to it. I see Lux as having less power at their disposal and that these are just trade offs between applications. I'm not implying that one workflow is better than the other is just that a program can become either too restrictive or too convoluted. It's a balancing act. :)

And my original point was that Core and Modo are indeed different kinds of animals.

LOL yeah... keep in mind that I am talking out of my ***, and dont own core or modo. I am real fond of the nodes though, and what they make possible...

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 02:27 PM
You know that's the modo renderer and previewer right and not CORE? I don't want to cause any confusion over that. I didn't time it but I started the preview, let it clear up some, started the 11 minute render, and then let it clear up some more for about 2 more minutes or so after the render stopped so I'm guessing about 13 or so minutes?

I noticed in one of your other post above this one....:D

I was thinking that Newtek gave the go ahead to start posting pics and what not....just over excitement on my part...hehe

Kuzey

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 02:32 PM
I noticed in one of your other post above this one....:D

I was thinking that Newtek gave the go ahead to start posting pics and what not....just over excitement on my part...hehe

Kuzey

No, we're still under lock and key, at least by the virtue of a handshake ageement. Hopefully Newtek will let through a few new screenshots or videos now that the feature list has been revealed as we move forward towards and during Q1.

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 02:36 PM
No, we're still under lock and key, at least by the virtue of a handshake ageement. Hopefully Newtek will let through a few new screenshots or videos now that the feature list has been revealed as we move forward towards and during Q1.

Yes indeed...I'm waiting for some video love :D


Kuzey

jayroth
12-09-2009, 03:01 PM
Yes indeed...I'm waiting for some video love :D


Kuzey

Given the holidays, you will not see anything along those lines until after the first of the year.

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 03:10 PM
Given the holidays, you will not see anything along those lines until after the first of the year.

Ahh....the holidays, I keep forgetting you guys at Newtek have holidays. I can wait, I look forward to seeing all the cool videos on Core :D

Kuzey

OnlineRender
12-09-2009, 03:35 PM
Given the holidays, you will not see anything along those lines until after the first of the year.

Send this http://elfyourself.jibjab.com/ :D

Sonk
12-09-2009, 03:36 PM
I read the PDF, seen the videos but i don't recall seeing any right click(RMB) context menu in CORE? For me that's a must for modeling(as i don't use hotkeys).

Being able to customized that context menu would be nice. I love the implementation of Mirai context menus, they are so flexible.

littlewaves
12-09-2009, 03:45 PM
Yes indeed...I'm waiting for some video love :D


Kuzey


why not just do a google video search for "hardcore"?

It's bound to throw up lots of lightwave related stuff and very little else.

Weetos
12-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Amazing stuff - really

I've been told Core wasn't ready for release, but I didn't think the features set was that rich - honestly I thought it would be a limited modeler (limited in terms of tools, not performances) - now that's a surprise !

Everything's seems well thought, like using Qt and that physics engine - so smart moves

Now please NT, will there be a special upgrade deal for those who haven't jumped in yet ?

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 03:54 PM
why not just do a google video search for "hardcore"?

It's bound to throw up lots of lightwave related stuff and very little else.

Only if you want to model the human figure in action and need references :hey:

Kuzey

Bookman
12-09-2009, 03:56 PM
Amazing stuff - really

I've been told Core wasn't ready for release, but I didn't think the features set was that rich - honestly I thought it would be a limited modeler (limited in terms of tools, not performances) - now that's a surprise !

Everything's seems well thought, like using Qt and that physics engine - so smart moves

Now please NT, will there be a special upgrade deal for those who haven't jumped in yet ?

the special upgrade deal was for getting in early not near the end. :)

jasonwestmas
12-09-2009, 03:56 PM
Amazing stuff - really

I've been told Core wasn't ready for release, but I didn't think the features set was that rich - honestly I thought it would be a limited modeler (limited in terms of tools, not performances) - now that's a surprise !

Everything's seems well thought, like using Qt and that physics engine - so smart moves

Now please NT, will there be a special upgrade deal for those who haven't jumped in yet ?

If you buy core now for the 9.x --> core $495 upgrade you are saving yourself major mulla. I think the upgrade is going up quite a bit after core is released.

*Pete*
12-09-2009, 03:57 PM
Now please NT, will there be a special upgrade deal for those who haven't jumped in yet ?

if im not completely wrong here, the upgrade is now 495$, the preorder (which i took) was 395$ and did include the mythical CORE-Tshirt.

so, you will still have the deal, but at 100 dollar higher price and without a t-shirt.

if you think you will be a CORE user when it reaches v1.0, i would suggest that you get in it now, as it will be cheaper for you.

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 04:00 PM
I don't know...it could be a great opportunity to get some good publicity and maybe more customers into the Core1 and or Core2. Something to think about :D

PS...how many HardCore members are there??

Kuzey

Wickster
12-09-2009, 04:09 PM
I don't know...it could be a great opportunity to get some good publicity and maybe more customers into the Core1 and or Core2. Something to think about :D

PS...how many HardCore members are there??

Kuzey
None. Everyone in HC got banned last Friday. :D

sorry, inside joke.

Chuck
12-09-2009, 04:10 PM
if im not completely wrong here, the upgrade is now 495$, the preorder (which i took) was 395$ and did include the mythical CORE-Tshirt.

so, you will still have the deal, but at 100 dollar higher price and without a t-shirt.

if you think you will be a CORE user when it reaches v1.0, i would suggest that you get in it now, as it will be cheaper for you.

The CORE Charter membership special was $395, and since the time that concluded (when the first alpha build of CORE was provided to the HardCORE members) the price of CORE membership has been $495. That remains in effect until CORE 1.0 actually ships, and at that time those who did not buy a membership during the alpha and beta phases can purchase at the upgrade price of $695. Either membership price will get the T-Shirt. I'm not aware of plans to include a T-shirt for those who purchase the release at $695.

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 04:10 PM
if im not completely wrong here, the upgrade is now 495$, the preorder (which i took) was 395$ and did include the mythical CORE-Tshirt.

so, you will still have the deal, but at 100 dollar higher price and without a t-shirt.

if you think you will be a CORE user when it reaches v1.0, i would suggest that you get in it now, as it will be cheaper for you.

The t-shirt comes with the membership. It should not matter when you buy in.

EDIT: Chuck beat me to that one.

hrgiger
12-09-2009, 04:12 PM
None. Everyone in HC got banned last Friday. :D

sorry, inside joke.

You're not supposed to talk about that. Banned.

Chuck
12-09-2009, 04:13 PM
None. Everyone in HC got banned last Friday. :D

sorry, inside joke.

Not everyone. I think we missed about 15. We're working on those this week, though. :hammer:


sorry, inside joke, part 2.

Bookman
12-09-2009, 04:18 PM
I don't know...it could be a great opportunity to get some good publicity and maybe more customers into the Core1 and or Core2. Something to think about :D

PS...how many HardCore members are there??

Kuzey

hehe, there are plenty, more are always welcome if they come in not expecting the world right away and understand that it is still early pre-alpha/Alpha stage stuff.

As for a discount, why insult the people who have been there since the beginning working hard to make Core a better application? I think I joined Core about a week or so after it was announced, not having a lot of money at the time it was a big risk for me to take. I am happy I did, by and large it's been a great experience, and I applaud NT for letting those of us who trusted them come in and help develop what I think will be a killer app in due course.

it is a lot of fun, but not always so, if you decide to join us, I hope it's for the right reasons, and not because it's suddenly shiny. :D

Chuck
12-09-2009, 04:19 PM
Hi Jay,

Could you elaborate on this please:


...CORE leverages the performance of professional graphics cards ....

What does that mean for non-Quadro and non-FireGL owners?

Cheers,
Mike

The better the card, the better the performance. You can use a modern game card if you wish. That text was some boilerplate stuff that no one caught.

jin choung
12-09-2009, 04:25 PM
I know the underlying code is much different, but the thought process that is going behind the workflows is the same. They will have a bunch of different tools that perform a bunch of differnet tasks all with there own workflow. IMO a single environment that can access all aspects of all tools in one interface is a much better workflow. It may be harder to learn at first, but the power will be 100 fold...

you're talking about different things. even if you had a single software methodology of executing tools and functions, it could look drastically different for a user - and viceversa.

workflow and ui design is a separate issue than software infrastructure. not entirely divorced and things feedback and feedforward but they are not the same.

lw legacy was one frankensteinian bolted on mess after another and yet the lw magazine ads still claim a chair thrustingly fast workflow. so which is the lie then?

this is why i reserve judgment on the much tauted infrastructure till i can see what it results in. theory is one thing, implementation another. but the theory is sound.

i will not believe the hype till i see it.

and i will not buy it until it's mature enough for me to gainfully use.

jin

jin choung
12-09-2009, 04:28 PM
I hope it's for the right reasons, and not because it's suddenly shiny. :D

for multiple reasons, my personal response to this would be:

hmmmmmm....

yeah....

ok....

jin

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 04:29 PM
hehe, there are plenty, more are always welcome if they come in not expecting the world right away and understand that it is still early pre-alpha/Alpha stage stuff.

As for a discount, why insult the people who have been there since the beginning working hard to make Core a better application? I think I joined Core about a week or so after it was announced, not having a lot of money at the time it was a big risk for me to take. I am happy I did, by and large it's been a great experience, and I applaud NT for letting those of us who trusted them come in and help develop what I think will be a killer app in due course.

it is a lot of fun, but not always so, if you decide to join us, I hope it's for the right reasons, and not because it's suddenly shiny. :D

Newtek have always done specials and I don't see how this years special is an insult to those who grabbed last years special. It's just an idea to maybe make a better splash in the 3d world...nothing more :D

How much is plenty...10,000 members or more around the 1,500 mark.

Kuzey

Kuzey
12-09-2009, 04:31 PM
for multiple reasons, my personal response to this would be:

hmmmmmm....

yeah....

ok....

jin

That was soooo hilarious...I just had to quote it :thumbsup:

Kuzey

jgatter
12-09-2009, 04:40 PM
you're talking about different things. even if you had a single software methodology of executing tools and functions, it could look drastically different for a user - and viceversa.

workflow and ui design is a separate issue than software infrastructure. not entirely divorced and things feedback and feedforward but they are not the same.

lw legacy was one frankensteinian bolted on mess after another and yet the lw magazine ads still claim a chair thrustingly fast workflow. so which is the lie then?

this is why i reserve judgment on the much tauted infrastructure till i can see what it results in. theory is one thing, implementation another. but the theory is sound.

i will not believe the hype till i see it.

and i will not buy it until it's mature enough for me to gainfully use.

jin

Like I said... I dont own core or modo, but from what i see of the direction that modo is heading. I think that a solid nodal app will be far superior when it comes to workflow and flexibility. I have used modo a bit and I see many things in modo that would have been far better implemented as a nodal workflow.

Maybe modo will add a nodal workflow at some point, but until they do... current LW will be more powerful in many aspects.

Bookman
12-09-2009, 04:44 PM
for multiple reasons, my personal response to this would be:

hmmmmmm....

yeah....

ok....

jin

too many people joined initially I think because they thought it would be a playground. when people test software they need to be able do it without a lot of emotional clutter attached. There are a lot of really good people on there doing just that, but there have been a few in the past who obviously could not. Those people end up causing a lot of Drama that is not needed. Overall I think we as a group have passed a lot of that, and I would hate to see it raise it's ugly head.

after Core 1.0 ships the cards will be different, but right now Hard Core is most defiantly not for everyone.

Cageman
12-09-2009, 04:46 PM
lw legacy was one frankensteinian bolted on mess after another and yet the lw magazine ads still claim a chair thrustingly fast workflow. so which is the lie then?

The fast workflow is defenately there in classic LW. After spending some 4+ years in Maya I still have many things I can do faster, more efficient and with a result that matches any other app out there. Depending on the task at hand, you are either blind or a Maya/XSI/Whatever fanboy to NOT see the benefits that classic LW still provides.

:)

The REAL question should always be: What is it that you want to achive?

Why are Digital Domain always looking for good, allround LW-users? Why are Zoic hiring, specificly, LW-artists at the moment?

I mean... what is it with LW and the people using LW that these companies, clearly, are interrested in?

Hmm...

:)

Amurrell
12-09-2009, 04:51 PM
Exciting news. It's more than I expected (that is if this list of features will work properly in Q1 of course).


I'm probably not the only one who considers buying CORE for it's dynamics engine alone. However, a dynamics engine isn't complete without dynamic objects like gravity and wind. So,

1) Will there be anything of the like (gravity and wind) in V1, and if not, is this a priority?

2) Can Bullet attributes be texture and weightmap driven.

3) Will the Bullet engine be 'nodally integrated' in CORE V1?

You might find information here... http://bulletphysics.org/wordpress/
As far as integration is concerned and how you would use it, you could try to use Blender, since it is free, to get an idea of what is possible with Bullet.

Snosrap
12-09-2009, 05:36 PM
but it's not true that blender is not being used professionally at all, just as it is clearly incorrect to say that lw isn't. and of course, it's not used in as many places as lw currently is but it seems to be gaining ground.

I sense on these forums that the term "being used professionally" equates to being used in films or television. My guess is that there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of "professional" users that do not work in film or television. I hope that Core meets the needs of these users as well.

jasonwestmas
12-09-2009, 05:54 PM
The CORE Charter membership special was $395, and since the time that concluded (when the first alpha build of CORE was provided to the HardCORE members) the price of CORE membership has been $495. That remains in effect until CORE 1.0 actually ships, and at that time those who did not buy a membership during the alpha and beta phases can purchase at the upgrade price of $695. Either membership price will get the T-Shirt. I'm not aware of plans to include a T-shirt for those who purchase the release at $695.

Wow, I saved $300. Hurry up interested persons, now's your chance to save $200.

Lightwolf
12-09-2009, 06:13 PM
The better the card, the better the performance. You can use a modern game card if you wish. That text was some boilerplate stuff that no one caught.
Thanks - that's all I really wanted to know.

Cheers,
Mike

Stooch
12-09-2009, 06:31 PM
The fast workflow is defenately there in classic LW. After spending some 4+ years in Maya I still have many things I can do faster
:)

you just arent using maya to its full potential.

I just exported a lightwave scene i setup in maya, it took advantage of history and isntancing and took 130 megs of ram.

that same exact scene will take 1.6gigs of ram in lightwave and is atrociously slow. even optimized to the max the app is drastically slower than maya and has no history functions. I bet yuo can get the same results with lw as maya, it just wont be as fast and you wont have the chance to go back and tweak a bevel offset or a live extruded nurbs surface. etc. you are only kidding yourself with that line of argument. not only that but lw 9.6 crashed about 5x as often as maya and actually cost me work that had to be redone. havent lost work in maya in months...

jgatter
12-09-2009, 06:35 PM
you just arent using maya to its full potential.

I just exported a lightwave scene i setup in maya, it took advantage of history and isntancing and took 130 megs of ram.

that same exact scene will take 1.6gigs of ram in lightwave and is atrociously slow. even optimized to the max the app is drastically slower than maya and has no history functions. I bet yuo can get the same results with lw as maya, it just wont be as fast and you wont have the chance to go back and tweak a bevel offset or a live extruded nurbs surface. etc. you are only kidding yourself with that line of argument. not only that but lw 9.6 crashed about 5x as often as maya and actually cost me work that had to be redone. havent lost work in maya in months...

No it means you dont know how to use LW to its potential... Cage didnt say that LW had better performance...he said that certain tasks are far faster in LW...

are you saying that isnt the case?

Stooch
12-09-2009, 06:38 PM
No it means you dont know how to use LW to its potential... Cage didnt say that LW had better performance...he said that certain tasks are far faster in LW...

are you saying that isnt the case?

what im saying is that MOST not SOME tasks are FAR faster than lightwave.

jgatter
12-09-2009, 06:40 PM
what im saying is that MOST not SOME tasks are FAR faster than lightwave.

Fair enough... I just butted in becasue he didnt say anything about app performance.

CoryC
12-09-2009, 06:41 PM
No it means you dont know how to use LW to its potential...

In most cases it is best to take a look at a person's work and past history before making blanket statements like this. Stooch has shown himself to be quite capable in both Maya and Lightwave. His opinion is one of the few I put any stock in on this board.

jgatter
12-09-2009, 06:44 PM
In most cases it is best to take a look at a person's work and past history before making blanket statements like this. Stooch has shown himself to be quite capable in both Maya and Lightwave. His opinion is one of the few I put any stock in on this board.

LOL... You think much more of stoochs LW knowledge then I do. [Personal attack removed. You get a time-out for five days.]

[This account was actually a new one for a permanently banned user. Ban set to permanent.]

Stooch
12-09-2009, 06:46 PM
LOL... You think much more of stoochs LW knowledge then I do.[Personal attack with inappropriate language for a family-friendly forum removed.]

lol. wow. i dont think you are worth aynones time to be honest. and dude... i used to rock lw for a very long time, believe me i was a fanboy back in the day.

jameswillmott
12-09-2009, 06:48 PM
lol. wow. i dont think you are worth aynones time to be honest.

I agree, that was sad and unnecessary...

jgatter
12-09-2009, 06:49 PM
lol. wow. i dont think you are worth aynones time to be honest.

Wow... good for you!

jgatter
12-09-2009, 06:54 PM
I agree, that was sad and unnecessary...
OK LW forum crazies...

let me get this straight... Its ok for stooch to say that cageman doenst know how to use maya, but I cant say that he doesnt know how to use LW... ?????? :sleeping:

[More inappropriate language removed.]

jgatter
12-09-2009, 06:57 PM
lol. wow. i dont think you are worth aynones time to be honest. and dude... i used to rock lw for a very long time, believe me i was a fanboy back in the day.

Lw is much more capable then it was back in the day... I am not a fan boy... LW is far from perfect!... but you are no authority on what LW is capable of at this point.

CoryC
12-09-2009, 06:58 PM
I agree, that was sad and unnecessary...

Of course but that is what Ignore lists are for.

Stooch
12-09-2009, 07:09 PM
OK LW forum crazies...
let me get this straight... Its ok for stooch to say that cageman doenst know how to use maya, but I cant say that he doesnt know how to use LW... ?????? :sleeping:

i dont think that was the problem. the problem was your blatantly homophobic statements that also kind of enlighten the rest of us about your maturity level, personal desires and/or fixations.
According to my psychology class, I guess you are still in the "anal" developmental stages.

its funny how thats what you think of immediatelly when soemone doesnt agree with you. maybe you are then one who needs to "explore" your "inner" self... Who knows, you might find a free copy of LW in there.

as far as "authoritay", just saying it like i see it. And i see lots of professional LW users and Maya users at work so its easy to make comparative observations.

Chuck
12-09-2009, 07:16 PM
Keep it to the issues, folks, and stay away from personal attacks of any kind.

medicalart
12-09-2009, 07:41 PM
"I don't care about v1.0 software until it hits final and on shelves, and even then rarely care until there is a v2.0 to see if the software is going to survive (anybody remember Inspire 3D??)."

Yep, I've got my Inspire3D box and all the LW versions since then.
Looking forward to Core, but yes, yes, yes, take your time--get it right--there's nothing worse than to send us software with problems. Wait to release it in 2011 if you need to!

Intuition
12-09-2009, 08:06 PM
According to my psychology class, I guess you are still in the "anal" developmental stages.



Oh snap. Seriously though, how can you outwit someone with the kitty playing the piano avatar? I mean really.

ncr100
12-09-2009, 08:08 PM
Given the holidays, you will not see anything along those lines until after the first of the year.

I get holiday, as in 1. Weep for me.

Stooch
12-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Oh snap. Seriously though, how can you outwit someone with the kitty playing the piano avatar? I mean really.

lol. the kitty has played off many who tried ;)

jasonwestmas
12-09-2009, 08:40 PM
Don't mess with the Kittaay, you only get scritched!

Speedmonk42
12-09-2009, 09:29 PM
Oh snap. Seriously though, how can you outwit someone with the kitty playing the piano avatar? I mean really.

That cat is f&*6ing awesome.

I just watched it for like 3 minutes. But that may have been the beer mug size rum and coke I just had too.

Marshun
12-09-2009, 10:07 PM
I'm just wondering when a full first-release of CORE will be in our very own hands here. dream dream dream

One other thing, why don't we have our t-shirts now?!? Let those people out there get a little curious about what CORE is all about.

And what if this CORE had never benn tauted?

How would any of us here react to finding out about this same product with nothing having ever been said about it ... just that ... there it is?

. . .

_________________________
I like kitty too :)

jin choung
12-09-2009, 10:36 PM
"I don't care about v1.0 software until it hits final and on shelves, and even then rarely care until there is a v2.0 to see if the software is going to survive (anybody remember Inspire 3D??)."

Yep, I've got my Inspire3D box and all the LW versions since then.
Looking forward to Core, but yes, yes, yes, take your time--get it right--there's nothing worse than to send us software with problems. Wait to release it in 2011 if you need to!

also concur.

i hope they remember that you only get one - ONE - chance to make a first impression.

what hard corers are able to overlook, others might not. what hard corers might be able to envision for the future, others probably won't. and they are releasing a 1.0.... not a .75. people will assume polish and not assume 2.0 will take care of it.

it is my earnest earnest hope that they release core under the assumption that no one will give them the benefit of the doubt.

that it will not seek mercy but overwhelmingly dominate.

jin

Dexter2999
12-09-2009, 10:51 PM
that it will not seek mercy but overwhelmingly dominate.

jin

So, Jin thinks CORE should be themed more in line with Ghangis Khan rather than Thor.

I think he will also require the following to be incorperated into any release he plans to purchase:

1) ferrets
2) sammiches
3) breasts

If items and 1 and 2 are deemed logistically impossible a double helping of item 3 is an acceptable substitution.

jin choung
12-09-2009, 10:57 PM
If items and 1 and 2 are deemed logistically impossible a double helping of item 3 is an acceptable substitution.

preferably interleaved. i don't know why. but interlaced breasts just really really does it for me.

jin

Marshun
12-09-2009, 11:00 PM
also concur.

i hope they remember that you only get one - ONE - chance to make a first impression.

what hard corers are able to overlook, others might not. what hard corers might be able to envision for the future, others probably won't. and they are releasing a 1.0.... not a .75. people will assume polish and not assume 2.0 will take care of it.

it is my earnest earnest hope that they release core under the assumption that no one will give them the benefit of the doubt.

that it will not seek mercy but overwhelmingly dominate.

jin I like that. Good analysis.

Dodgy
12-09-2009, 11:51 PM
also concur.
what hard corers are able to overlook, others might not. what hard corers might be able to envision for the future, others probably won't. and they are releasing a 1.0.... not a .75. people will assume polish and not assume 2.0 will take care of it.
that it will not seek mercy but overwhelmingly dominate.

jin

Actually I think most people assume most software without a point release will be broken in lots of ways, especially if it has the tag Microsoft, or even Apple nowadays! I guess we're all very cynical. It'd be nice if it worked straight out of the gate though... You only have to look at all the major 3d apps first versions to see none of them got it right. Even the XSI fans only think 3.5 was the first stable version. I really don't want to have to wait for that for Core though.

JohnMarchant
12-10-2009, 12:32 AM
All this my software is better than your software is tedious ladies. Its a LW forum, but we are not fooled into believing for 1 second that 1 software does it all, then there would be no need for ZBrush, 3DCoat, Realflow, Particle Illusion et al.

Im happy with what i have and all packages contain strengths and weaknesses, depends on what you use it for.

I think software like Blender and the like show the way to go, open source is good especially if it deals a blow to AD overpriced software.

JonW
12-10-2009, 12:58 AM
The things it... and that's why I asked: I terms of raw GPU performance there is absolutely no difference.
The difference is the acceleration and availability of certain OpenGL features that only pro-apps use (due to different requirements: quad buffered stereo support, clipping planes for multiple OpenGL windows as opposed to a single fullscreen view for games... things like that).

So, in the GPU context I really do wonder if there is more meaning behind the wording or if it was just a casual slip.

Cheers,
Mike

Can we get back on topic. We all sound like a gaggle of girls!

If I put a 5800 in my W5580. Could you give some indication of the % of leveraging one will achieve.

Thank you.

OnlineRender
12-10-2009, 01:28 AM
ffs I goto sleep for 7 hrs and I miss all that shinnzle , ok time for the day shift to take over . . . .

Cageman
12-10-2009, 01:42 AM
you just arent using maya to its full potential.

I just exported a lightwave scene i setup in maya, it took advantage of history and isntancing and took 130 megs of ram.

that same exact scene will take 1.6gigs of ram in lightwave and is atrociously slow. even optimized to the max the app is drastically slower than maya and has no history functions. I bet yuo can get the same results with lw as maya, it just wont be as fast and you wont have the chance to go back and tweak a bevel offset or a live extruded nurbs surface. etc. you are only kidding yourself with that line of argument. not only that but lw 9.6 crashed about 5x as often as maya and actually cost me work that had to be redone. havent lost work in maya in months...

Ahh... well.. if you need that kind of flexibility regarding modeling, I really can't argue for LW at all, since LW doesn't have those functions. :)

But, over the time that I've worked here at Massive, looking back at all our highres cinematics productions, non of them needed any type of historystack or modifierstack for the models. Well, to start with, pretty much all models were done in Modo or LW by the modeling-guys, so the benefit of using Mayas modeling history is lost already at that point.

I do have examples of where Maya got so bogged down so we ended up exporting everything to LW for rendering, and in that case we ended up adding more stuff in LW. I think the scene had about 14-15 million polygons and ended up rendering in 7-8 minutes / frame, while Maya/MR died when the polycount was around 6-7 million polygons. I think we managed to render one frame in Maya/MR and it looked awefull and took over 20 minutes to render. Obviously, something had gone very wrong in Maya, and the deadline was creaping closer. It is at such times you start to realize that production shouldn't be about fighting the tools or spend hours and hours on cleaning things up, especially after the fact that those who have MUCH better knowledge of Maya/MR than I do, had already spent 1-2 days trying to figure out what was wrong.

:)

Clearly, the problems that we've encountered with Maya are rooted to user error, which I think is totaly acceptable that users may do misstakes. What I'm getting at though, is the fact that in Maya, you can work for a very long time without noticing that you have done something wrong, and it creeps up and bites you in the arse when you hit that renderbutton. :) Also, the MR "integration" in Maya is a joke in comparsion to 3DS Max or XSI. :)

Anyhow, rendering asside, there are other workflow-related things in Maya that I simply don't like, and those who have not used other apps, may not be aware of it, and for them it is obviously a non-issue. This is why I'm very interrested in CORE, because it has the potential of becoming what I like the most about both LW and Maya, and of what I've seen and heard so far, it is heading in the right direction.

:)

We can probably dig up many examples where our experience is totaly the opposite regarding the use of Maya/LW. However, I try to take advantage of the good things in Maya that I understand, and make use of LW for what I feel I can't do in Maya as effective. This also boils down to the fact that I've tried numerous times to learn MEL and L-Script, just to understand that it's not for me because I'm a complete retard when it comes to such things.

:)

Nemoid
12-10-2009, 02:42 AM
Well, Maya is a good piece of software for sure, but as every software out there it has strong points and weak ones.
A strong and weak at the same time is it is very complex, and deep, and so, sometimes, making simple things ends to be overcomplex. This is because obviously it has the power to make very complex things, allowing the user to stratify it work, but, you have to pay great attention also to nodal structure of the scene, or it can rapidly become a mess, difficult to fix later because it is too complex. Btw, if you know it well, you know the rules and all becomes more manageable.
But, the fact you have tons of ways to obtain the same result, is also confusing.
It is powerful and flexible, but since it was conceived for high end production work, where you have TDs and programmers it does miss the "fast workflow out of the box" concept and in some areas, the artistic approach.

A software like XSI, clearly demonstrated that it is possible to couple power with some level of ease of use, for production purposes, so that it isn't the case an user should forcely learn a script language to end up making what in other apps he can do simply using the tools at his disposal.

Now, we are not in 1998, we are in 2010, so a 3D app suited for our times, has to offer more than what maya offers.
Has to go beyond, coupling artistic approach and technical approach where needed.

The truth is that the app has to have well projected tools ready for production and suited for a fast workflow,(Lw,modo XSI) AND power, flexibility and programmability (Maya, Houdini ).

Tools for production will allow artists to work fast for all the tasks they commonly do, without compiling scripts and such.
Then, the nodal structure and flexibility of the program should allow when needed them to go deeper and refine their work, reaching a vast level of complexity (which isn't ALWAYS required, and is more suited for bigger productions rather than small ones)

This is IMHO what DCC needs now.
There's plenty of softwares where you can spot huge hints of that and get some inspiration from, both feature wise and workflow wise ! Lw and Modo for fast production and some good artistic approach, houdini for complete flexibility, Zbrush and 3d coat for even more artistic approach...

hazmat777
12-10-2009, 05:16 AM
I think I read every post, but might have missed one or two. Do we have an idea about the Graph Editor in CORE yet? That's been a sore spot for many doing CA in LW. Ideally, something along the lines of...

http://www.creativecrash.com/maya/downloads/scripts-plugins/animation/c/graph-editor-redux--3

would be desired down the road...

:)

Soth
12-10-2009, 06:46 AM
I think I read every post, but might have missed one or two. Do we have an idea about the Graph Editor in CORE yet? That's been a sore spot for many doing CA in LW. Ideally, something along the lines of...

http://www.creativecrash.com/maya/downloads/scripts-plugins/animation/c/graph-editor-redux--3

would be desired down the road...

:)

Post it as a feature request? Do you use it? Maybe can do short video about functionality and upload here? That may help developers.

serge
12-10-2009, 07:29 AM
You might find information here... http://bulletphysics.org/wordpress/
As far as integration is concerned and how you would use it, you could try to use Blender, since it is free, to get an idea of what is possible with Bullet.
Thanks Amurrell. I had already checked that.

Bullet has a lot of potential, but I'm interested in integration into CORE V1.

If the list we got from Newtek is all we get in V1, then that probably means just a standalone plugin, no nodal integration into CORE, no textures/weightmap driven attributes, no wind dynamics. In this case I'm not very interested.

Tobian
12-10-2009, 07:40 AM
Serge, I think you missed the point that it will be fully integrated into core, because the open architeture of LW core means it can directly hook in, and allow access to all of it's operators and inputs. The double benefit of this is it's used in a lot of other software (Cinema apparently uses it), which means it should be interoperable and predictable when you transfer files. This should be good news to people looking at developing for games! :)

As the library expands, the more features LW gets too, which is actually cool, though the downside is.. so does everyone else haha. I guess it depends how well it integrates, but it should because of the open way software can integrate with LW core now... If they had done this in LW 9.x it would have probably had to be all in an external window, this probably integrates directly into the LW nodal architecture. Still that's a lot of ifs and maybes... but I can't see them choosing it if it wasn't possible, because that's the entire point about the architecture of Core!

serge
12-10-2009, 07:50 AM
Hi Tobian. I posted my questions since these a not covered in de PDF we got. Newtek didn't reply (yet) to my questions. So, until they reply I have to take it that my expectations are correct. If it is fully integrated in V1, as you expect, they should specifically mention this, since it's a big selling point.

I'm positive it will be fully integrated some day. But for now I'm interested in V1.