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cresshead
11-23-2009, 03:38 PM
i see dr who now has a 3d cel shaded [sort of] show as well as the filmed version

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0057t3p/Doctor_Who_Dreamland_Episode_One/

it's not hi tec Cg...seems quite lo poly and stiff in the animations but it carries the story okay
not forgetting they have to make 13 mins per show...the camera angles seem to follow a pattern of new set est shot then over shoulder angles and the all in cast angle, still ..it sorta works...

so a lo ish budget by the looks of it.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79550&d=1259015831

jayroth
11-23-2009, 03:42 PM
i see dr who now has a 3d cel chaded [sort of] show as well as the filmed version

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0057t3p/Doctor_Who_Dreamland_Episode_One/

it's not hi tec Cg...seems quite lo poly and stiff in the animations but it carries the story okay

It's actually rather disappointing to see this quality, in my opinion. This is now the second animated attempt for this generation of Dr. Who. There is so much potential in the performances of the actors, its a shame to animate them in what is effectively "POSER-style". The first attempt was more of a 2D flash-y attempt, and it fell short as well.

I am a David Tennant fan, and knowing these are effectively our last glimpses of him as the Doctor leaves me sad...

cresshead
11-23-2009, 03:53 PM
i reckon a handful people could pull off the show in any of today's 3d apps..it's mainly building models for the sets more than anything..on the credits it lists... a lead animator and 3 additional animators...no list of modelers or blocking artists ect...

studio

http://www.littleloud.com/

http://www.littleloud.com/work/doctorwho/

pooby
11-23-2009, 04:41 PM
Looks like another ik boost sighting to me.

cresshead
11-23-2009, 04:47 PM
Looks like another ik boost sighting to me.

i take it your impressed then:D

the model of Tennant's face is pretty good...good likeness.

jayroth
11-23-2009, 04:59 PM
So, where's a good link for us in the USA to watch this masterpiece?

cresshead
11-23-2009, 05:07 PM
well like hulu is only usa...bbc iplayer is uk only...UNLESS...you use a proxy!

cresshead
11-23-2009, 05:15 PM
youtube to the rescue!
horrible image quality..and lip sync is out...but gives you an idea of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWL0L8IttFs

colkai
11-24-2009, 04:29 AM
Yep, the animation is pretty gosh durn bad but then, no idea of the resources they had / timescales.
Even so, I can think of many folks on these boards who could of done a better job.

I feel they've semi cel-shaded it to make it "stylised", thus allowing them to sidestep some of the quality complaints.

Also a massive DT fan, I do wonder what he thinks of it personally?

Again though, without knowing the timescale and budgets involved, hard to say if it was a waste or amazing given the constraints.

As Cress says, thankfully the story carries it a long a bit and DT's likeness does raise it above what it could of been.

Be cool to see it done with more detail and finesse though, ahh well.

pooby
11-24-2009, 04:40 AM
If I had a small team and no time, I'd use Mocap. Actually, I'd probably use mocap anyway.

My friend pitched on this job and did a test (In LW funnily enough*) that trounced this in terms of quality.. Why his studio didnt get the job I dont know.
I'll ask if they are allowed to show it.


*but not with IK boost

cresshead
11-24-2009, 04:58 AM
If I had a small team and no time, I'd use Mocap. Actually, I'd probably use mocap anyway.

My friend pitched on this job and did a test (In LW funnily enough*) that trounced this in terms of quality.. Why his studio didnt get the job I dont know.
I'll ask if they are allowed to show it.


*but not with IK boost

would love to see the test vid...if not public then maybe a 'pm'??:hey:
just to see how it compared and try to figure out why they went for this studio for the project.

Kuzey
11-24-2009, 06:26 AM
I used the famous CSI super computer to clear part of the image and look what appeared...hehe.


:hey:

Kuzey

Titus
11-24-2009, 08:23 AM
Wow! looks like an animatic made with Poser. Maybe ten years ago this kind of animation was ok, but today standards are higher.

jayroth
11-24-2009, 09:48 AM
I am familiar with the restrictions of time and money, not to mention dictates from producers, etc. So, in all fairness to the company that did this work, it is likely that these were overwhelming factors in this case. I can only imagine the level of frustration that may have been involved. To be fair, I have not yet seen the whole thing, and I will watch it (likely via iTunes). It's possible my opinion may change, but I think the clips posted are likely representative of the project overall. (I would like to see the details of the project sometime...)

That said, my initial impressions still stand, and I see them reflected here in the comments of others.

At the end of the day, it fell upon the BBC to determine the level of quality for this project. Clearly, the powers that be at "the Beeb" felt this look and approach was acceptable -- in my opinion, their decision was a disservice to fans of Dr. Who, as well as anyone with young kids who has seen some surprisingly decent Saturday morning animation.

Oh well. Perhaps there will be another one to watch sometime...

skin12002
11-24-2009, 10:53 AM
Here's a little bit of fun Doctor Who - done in Lightwave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXnV1UNbTuM

RebelHill
11-24-2009, 05:32 PM
yup, terrible animation... UTTERLY awful deformations...

and all done in LW in brighton...

I sense a studio in need of a good LW character operator...

cresshead
11-24-2009, 05:35 PM
yup, terrible animation... UTTERLY awful deformations...

and all done in LW in brighton...

I sense a studio in need of a good LW character operator...

should have used mo cap...or just a few more people animating...must have been bottom of the barrel budgets...they must have really been pushed for time

jayroth
11-24-2009, 05:44 PM
should have used mo cap...or just a few more people animating...must have been bottom of the barrel budgets...they must have really been pushed for time

Two things: character designers, character animators. There are plenty good folks available to do this stuff, but you do need to pay for it. Given the popularity of Dr. Who, shame on the BBC for (apparently) cheeping out on this.

Titus
11-24-2009, 06:17 PM
I have to agree with that. But then, that's the norm for today - "just give me something and I'll pay you crap - though I DO expect it to be good."

That's so true. In my town they want free animation proofs for everything, quick and with good quality.

pooby
11-25-2009, 04:57 AM
I suspect the job was awarded on something flaky such as the fact the model is recognisable as David Tennant.
Many many people dont really understand what animation actually IS. Even film reviewers often use the word 'animation' to really mean CGI in general, encompassing rendering, texturing etc.
I've had this recently. I made an animated test of something. The clients loved it, but, not really understanding what they were looking at, thought that it was the model that was great..
The model was pretty basic, but the rig and the animation MADE it look great

I'm pretty sure this thing was commissioned based mainly on stills and designs.

jayroth
11-25-2009, 11:39 AM
I suspect the job was awarded on something flaky such as the fact the model is recognisable as David Tennant.
Many many people dont really understand what animation actually IS. Even film reviewers often use the word 'animation' to really mean CGI in general, encompassing rendering, texturing etc.
I've had this recently. I made an animated test of something. The clients loved it, but, not really understanding what they were looking at, thought that it was the model that was great..
The model was pretty basic, but the rig and the animation MADE it look great

I'm pretty sure this thing was commissioned based mainly on stills and designs.

Agreed, and they stated in the making of video on youtube how they wanted a "cel-shaded look." I would have preferred a more stylized "Up" look myself.

Red_Oddity
11-25-2009, 01:26 PM
Wow, can't believe someone got payed for this drivel.

And here i though SciFi, sorry, SyFy, was cheap.

cresshead
11-26-2009, 03:59 PM
all six episodes are up now

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p005bllg/Doctor_Who_Dreamland_Episode_Six/

Red_Oddity
11-27-2009, 09:23 AM
Dr. WhooOOOOAAAAT THE FFFFF....

cresshead
12-03-2009, 04:02 PM
just stumbled on this w.i.p. vid...looks much bette than the dreamland vids.

http://www.plazmadesign.co.uk/DrWHO.html

littlewaves
12-14-2009, 03:36 AM
finally saw this and erm.. yeah

makes Clone Wars look like pixar.

Shame you can see lightwave in one of the making of videos specific to character animation. Only gonna fuel LW's detractors

Guess this is one we won't see in the Newtek newsletter.

I guess because it was really only for the website then they didn't bother with much of a budget but I think it's a shame that the Beeb felt they could fob kids off with this level of quality. Maybe they blew the budget on the voice actors

That said it's a 45 minute animation with a very small team and from the blog it looks like it was completed in just a couple of months so there were always going to be shortcuts.

OnlineRender
12-14-2009, 03:52 AM
Im sure Ive seen someone post here that works for the company that made this ! and I also think LW was involved .

littlewaves
12-14-2009, 04:07 AM
Im sure Ive seen someone post here that works for the company that made this ! and I also think LW was involved .

oh dear well I hope they're not too depressed or offended by the criticism in this thread

I guess it's important to remember that there are all sorts of reasons (time and budget restrains) that may have contributed to the end result leaving a fair bit to be desired.

cresshead
12-14-2009, 04:10 AM
you can read about the making of blog here>>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/doctorwho/dreamlandanimation/2009/10/

i think if they used motion capture rather then stiff hand animations it could have been alot better...

i can see they probably looked abit at japanese anime where they have limited movements but this does not transfer well to a full 3d scene...we're okay looking at a non moving 2d image but a 3d image just feels 'off' and the very 'stiffness' of the movements is really not nice to watch..

the lip sync is okay and the models also are okay, the lighting is not bad but not good...probably a trade off for the render times being kept low as well as the set up.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80218&d=1260788985

Chris S. (Fez)
12-14-2009, 04:38 AM
So what's the consensus? Story/writing tolerable if not the deformations?

Any downloads for US fans or should I skip it and just wait for Christmas episode?

OnlineRender
12-14-2009, 05:02 AM
The motion is a bit stiff , but I like the style ,some scenes are very sweet ,even some of the models look very nice, Cell Shading seems to back in fashion , Reminds me of Borderlands .

cresshead
12-14-2009, 05:21 AM
well to be fair we don't have the knowledge on the budget the bbc gave for this or the productio timeline either...

i'd say whilst the animation is not 'wow' it does serve the purpose for a low budget show...i'm actually looking to make a similar production next year but i'll be using motion capture...or at least intend to try that out in a test to see how it feels...also i'll be going cel shade on my production to drop the workload down...lipsync?..i have plans to cheat ALOT just like they do in anime > ghost in the shell and woudl like to attain a similar look as GOTS but maybe not have hand drawn bg's...

we'll see.... i find the dreamland both inspiring and eye opening on stuff i don;t want to see in my own productions...still my project is truly in "dreamland" currently!

i'll post this cos the model looks so nice!
http://www.chucksanimeshrine.com/animeblog/uploaded_images/4562182880291A-777794.jpg

but want to go 2d like this for my idea...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/silver303/gitsfans.jpg

http://eriksmind.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ghost_in_the_shell-dented-tachikoma.jpg?w=468&h=362

cresshead
12-14-2009, 05:30 AM
btw doctor who dreamland will be out on DVD in feb 2010 [amazon.co.uk]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-Dreamland-David-Tennant/dp/B002YIHFKE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1260793771&sr=8-1

JBT27
12-14-2009, 05:53 AM
There's many who don't know this stuff who will be OK with what this looks like - speaking with a friend last week who was raving about these and saying how great they are ..... major league Dr Who fan, but I guess that's partly the point.

No point doing much crit without context of budgets and artists and schedules and even how the whole thing ran through production. The sheer artistry and time required versus staying in business, with projects like this and indeed lesser ones, is really quite demoralising.

We were invited to tender on a job recently. The brief didn't make alot of sense, so I phoned and discussed it. The essence of what was a perfectly decent conversation was that they knew they'd be getting crap but were OK with it .....

There's been plenty of threads with comments by people recounting times when they've been less than happy with what's been done by them or their studio, but it's invariably time and money constraints.

I don't know ..... what do you do? Stick with it or step out? Kind of rhetorical I guess, but outside of proper budgets and schedules, well .....

Julian.

JBT27
12-14-2009, 05:54 AM
well to be fair we don't have the knowledge on the budget the bbc gave for this or the productio timeline either...

i'd say whilst the animation is not 'wow' it does serve the purpose for a low budget show...i'm actually looking to make a similar production next year but i'll be using motion capture...or at least intend to try that out in a test to see how it feels...also i'll be going cel shade on my production to drop the workload down...lipsync?..i have plans to cheat ALOT just like they do in anime > ghost in the shell and woudl like to attain a similar look as GOTS but maybe not have hand drawn bg's...

we'll see.... i find the dreamland both inspiring and eye opening on stuff i don;t want to see in my own productions...still my project is truly in "dreamland" currently!

i'll post this cos the model looks so nice!


It does indeed, a very nice model!

Julian.