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View Full Version : the flow, the flood, the ditch and the puddle



cresshead
11-18-2009, 08:47 AM
just been thinking...hey it's not often so grab it whilst you can!:D

a few years back we saw many people talking of moving from lightwave to cinema 4d....

then we had the xsi foundation arrive...and we had talk of people moving to xsi foundation or adding it
then we had the talk of silo and many adding that...
then the talk of people moving to modo...
now we get talk of people moving to blender...

well i'm one that added lightwave when i already had 3dsmax...sorta a bit the opposite...

but i did get a seat of silo...never really used it..
also got a seat of hexagon...not used that either...
also got a seat of xsi foundation 4.2...never got into that either..
and like many i downloaded and installed blender a few times...8~

was it just a case of the grass is greener?

i', just wondering how many did the move and never came back...
i'm suspecting quite a few tried other apps but still had a hankering for lightwave's ways...

with core coming online soon...lets hope that we can make that move a good move.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79417&d=1258559006

Andyjaggy
11-18-2009, 08:53 AM
This post is flawed because those that did move on and never came back wouldn't be here to comment on it. :)

I've pretty much moved 90% of my work to other applications at this point. Though I still jump into LW every once in a while to get something done.

cresshead
11-18-2009, 09:20 AM
i never said thinking was my strong point!

my thing here is alot of people talked about moving....

Intuition
11-18-2009, 10:06 AM
a few years back we saw many people talking of moving from lightwave to cinema 4d....

We are starting to take in a few more cinema 4d artists at DD. I did try it a few times around v7 and v8. The main thing that I have seen in the latest version is just how good it is at doing motion graphics. Which is the main reason we are seeing more C4D hiring around here. If I did more motion graphics I would look at it again.



then we had the xsi foundation arrive...and we had talk of people moving to xsi foundation or adding it

I tried XSI 4.0ish and liked it but mainly got into XSI around 5.11 for two reasons. Character animation and dynamics. It does those things very well and on the way I learned how to properly use mental ray. ICE is also very cool and can do really good motion graphics as well as fx work. We haven't even begun to see how far ice can go.




then we had the talk of silo and many adding that...

Tried silo but liked modeler better.



then the talk of people moving to modo...

When I tried modo in version 103 it was really nice but would crash literally every 5-10 minutes so as much as I liked it I left it alone. While at Eden FX I got on the modo beta and was able to test 201 as it was being developed. I then sat down with it and it was not crashing as much. Still a bit unstable but the workflow for modeling was better so I switched. Also the interface customization capability was/is great. Its render engine was and is still amazing. Fast with a Vray quality look. When 301 bea testing came out I got to do some actual work where I animated in XSI and rendered in modo via MDD and keyrames. Was great. Still use it as my main modeler. There are some better modeling tools in other apps like XSI and Maya but they are very specfic tools and overall modo still is the best general modeling app for me.



now we get talk of people moving to blender...

Tried Blender long ago. Still fire up a new version here and there but really not interested. Everything it does I can get better in something else. I am lucky though as I get to use all the apps. If I was budget limited I would have probably learned blender back and forth by now.



well i'm one that added lightwave when i already had 3dsmax...sorta a bit the opposite...

I first had Lightwave. Well actually an app called Crystal Topas. Then Lightwave due to not affording the SGI/Softimage combo back in 1995. I did get into max around r2. Loved it but had an easier time with Lightwave's render engine by that point so I didn't use it much.



but i did get a seat of silo...never really used it..

Played with silo. Liked modo better.



also got a seat of hexagon...not used that either...

Played with Hexagon. Liked modo better.



also got a seat of xsi foundation 4.2...never got into that either..

Yup, played with 4.2 probably. Liked it alot. Played with 5.11 and bought it.



and like many i downloaded and installed blender a few times...8~



was it just a case of the grass is greener?

The main reason I used any app or app+plug in is due to complete needs for a quick solution and I was lucky to have freelance budgets that I could force myself to learn on. I always knew that getting work would be easier if I expanded my app knowledge. So whenever I found I needed a plug in or tool that was better in another app and I needed it on a project I jumped right in knowing I would have to force myself to learn the app and plug-in to get the job done and since it was a paying gig I added it to the budget. I can't tell you enough how beneficial it all is.

Over the years I slowly learned maya this way as well. Had to jump into max to get fume FX and Vray and even thinking particles for one project. Great stuff. Maya had a collection of features like the fluid cloud boxes that you could fly a camera through much faster then hypervoxels. Now I use Maya every day as my main app and It just fits me like a glove. I'll probably be using it as my main app for years to come. Every aspect just fits great. Amazing to hear myself say that when back at Version 6-7 I really felt like the GUI was a mess. Now I get it and really like it. The dynamics nSystems are amazing and unified and on I could go. it just works. The learning curve is a little steeper then the other apps but once you learn where things are and why they are there it becomes ridiculously fast to use.

I do wish May fluids where as fast as using fumeFX and I did wish Maya had Vray but... now it does, so that is a perfect combo for me. The big surprise for me was Maya's character rigging and animation tools were easier for me to use then XSI but only ever so slightly. I now rig and animate characters, put clothing on them and run cloth sims, add Zbrush displacement maps to them, etc etc with ease. Never wondering "Is this going to work this time and with this combination of features/fx?". It always works and works well.



with core coming online soon...lets hope that we can make that move a good move.


I am watching core as well. I want to say more but thats up to NT to reveal. I'll just say that it looks like it may have a lot of the versatility I like about Maya.

Titus
11-18-2009, 10:09 AM
I you look closer, the grass on the right side is indeed greener :D.

I hear/read many different users complaining about the new version of their program. I'm personally very agnostic (software wise), and don't mind to use any program available. As a Blender user since 2000, Maya/RenderMan 2001, and LW 1997, I'm analizing an upcoming project, and since there are no many local LW users available there's a chance to start a mixed pipeline.

EDIT: Regarding Cinema 4D. I've visited almost all the post facilities in my city and most use Cinema 4D to create elements for motion graphics.

hrgiger
11-18-2009, 12:34 PM
I stopped using LW for a little while last year as I was seduced by XSI. Got kind of tired of the convoluted workflow of character rigging and animation in Lightwave. I eventually came back to Lightwave for several reasons (missed LWCAD a lot, Fprime, new character tools in 9.6, and of course Autodesk taking over XSI- yes I'm one of those irrational AD haters).
Several months back I started using Modo. I thought it would be a good companion for Lightwave while CORE was in development and it is. Remains to be seen what the next version of Modo will be like and how useful it will be for me. But like Neverko, I'm entertaining the thought that CORE could be my primary app in just a couple years.

Andyjaggy
11-18-2009, 01:34 PM
Yeah a lot of times, the grass is greener on the other side. :)

JBT27
11-18-2009, 02:04 PM
Well, for me I learned the hard and expensive way. I started with LW seriously, back in whenever, just as the notorious first Mac version came out.

I'll admit I have frequently been persuaded by hype and bought into things that I ultimately found less productive than LW, for me anyway, and things that I got excited about but never used. Maya, Complete and then Unlimited, first when Complete was around 5K. Bought into the hype of all the stuff it could do, without realising what it takes to make it do all that cool stuff ..... stupid mistake.

I wish I had all that money now :rolleyes:

I'll admit it's only in the past three or four years that I fully realised that making assumptions about LW's inabilities, as told by so many, is very, very foolish. So even having dived into XSI Foundation for character rigging, Hexagon for sculpting, Modo for super-modern elegant modelling (the bits that work anyway), I still kept coming back to what I knew and wanting to find ways to do it in LW.

I guess after alot of expense and mither, I reckon this whole exercise is a bit of a fool's errand, constantly looking around for the catchall do-everything tool that just works.

I like LW, alot, and I'm optimistic about CORE. The plugins I have all get used, and I have alot of training in books and videos for LW, including RebelHill's outstanding rigging tutorials ..... what with him doing that cool stuff and Mr Rid doing his HV stuff ..... you kinda feel a bit silly looking round for something that will apparently work better. A bit simplistic, but as ever, it ain't necessarily the software ..... like I say, an expensive road figuring that out sometimes :)

Julian.

Intuition
11-18-2009, 03:12 PM
Hey JBT, out of curiosity, which version pf Maya did you buy back then?

JBT27
11-18-2009, 03:33 PM
Hey JBT, out of curiosity, which version pf Maya did you buy back then?

It was 4, or 4.5 I think ..... might have bought into it just as the 4.5 got released and that was the time Alias started dropping the price.

The reason I dropped it was a job I had which ground Maya to a halt, in rendering. I was on top of the deadline, pretty much, had thousands of frames to render, a couple of weeks to go and despite struggling endlessly with it, started to realise it wasn't going to do it. Out of desperation, I bought the Beaverproject plugins, ported the whole job to LW 7.0 and re-surface everything, had frames rendering in seconds and minutes against tens of minutes or not at all in Maya, and decided to use ResPower for the rest, just to get it done.

I had alot of problems with high poly counts in Maya that LW just breezed through.

The job worked out great, but it badly dented my hype-hit with Maya :)

We do miss it, to be honest, and I'd have preferred to pursue rigging in Maya and keep it around for other stuff, but the licenses lapsed and now we'd have to buy it all over again.

If I ever get sufficient spare cash, I might just buy into it again. My business partner started with it, and even now she admits she loved it and misses using it.

Julian.

IMI
11-18-2009, 04:04 PM
i', just wondering how many did the move and never came back...
i'm suspecting quite a few tried other apps but still had a hankering for lightwave's ways...


Well I wouldn't exactly say "never", but since getting into XSI I haven't even opened LW more than a few times. And I recently installed the Windows 7 RTM and don't even have LW installed yet. :eek:
But if it makes any difference, I still haven't reinstalled modo 302 either. ;)

I can't even bring myself to use Modeler anymore. There's just so much XSI has that Modeler doesn't and the workflow is far friendlier in many ways from the gizmos to the history to even simple things like one key+mouse for panning, dollying and rotating the view. And 3D Connexion support...
Well I'm not gonna go out of my way to knock Modeler, but I guess we all know that it's lacking big time and most of its better features are really just 3rd party plugins, just as with Layout. What if there were no FPrime or LWCad? PLG? And so on. Where would LW be without those tools? It seems every time someone extols the virtues of LW, it's the 3rd party plugins that get equal or more than equal billing. I never read someone saying that VIPER totally kicks @ss. ;)

I think I've let the whole idea that LightWave is dead get to me, and in my mind it *is* all but dead. (Although I'm planning on soon trying to learn how to get some XSI stuff into Layout.) As it stands I'm waiting to see what 9.6.1 brings, and of course I have faith that CORE will bring me back within the next year or so. I can't see ever abandoning XSI, or ever regaining the (pre-CORE) LW love, but I'm very much hoping I'll feel that need to bring CORE into what I'm doing, sooner or later.

I do have to say that I am highly impressed and highly pleased with all the love and attention Layout's render engine got over these past three years since 9.0's arrival, and from what we all know about CORE, it will be making up for all that is lacking in Modeler. Although IMO, CORE should have been started at the time 9.0 was started.

Intuition
11-18-2009, 04:19 PM
Yeah, I got to play with old maya 4 recently on my SGI o2 box. I was surprised how great the character animation tools were even back that far but, as you said, the rendering solutions in earlier maya were really not that great. I think Renderman was the hi end solution back then and it was expensive to boot.

The maya native renderer was really not that great when compared to Lightwave's native at the same time as Maya 4. The rigid body dynamics were pretty good though.

borkus
11-18-2009, 07:58 PM
Viper kicks @$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

aurora
11-18-2009, 08:03 PM
Well I did move onto Houdini for alot of dynamics but never left LW. In fact most of my Houdini stuff eventually got rendered in LW. Almost a perfect combo in my book. If only it were easier to get huge data generate scenes from Houdini and rendered in LW.

biliousfrog
11-19-2009, 05:38 AM
I only ever considered moving seriously when CORE was announced because I knew that Lightwave would be left to stagnate and the new app would take several years to be anywhere near a replacement. I've tried Modo a few times but I've found it more difficult to get into as it has matured, mostly because it has become less like modeler, but it's still my primary candidate for LW replacement. I've tried XSI and used Max briefly some years ago (R2, R3) but I found them both overly complicated compared to Lightwave...purely because I'm in the LW mindset.

Currently Lightwave is everything I need but it's a worry that everyone else is moving forward when NewTek are starting from scratch. Modo is very close to the complete package, especially with another animation app, it's just a shame that it doesn't have the unlimited render nodes.

Mike_RB
11-19-2009, 06:44 AM
We moved on from pure LW around when modo101 came out. We started using it as a replacement for modeller right away. We then brought in XSI as a layout replacement and Iron Man used XSI fully for all the animation, only rendering in LW. After that we went full modo+xsi+MR unless it was a legacy project already in LW. District 9 was modo+xsi+MR. On a few jobs we've gone pure modo as well.

But LW still has a warm fuzzy place in our hearts, it's just not something in the pipeline currently. Core is NT's chance to fix that. But it really needs to get fully modernized and step up with some new tools that make bringing it, rather than say something like Houdini into the pipe. So they have challenges ahead.

cresshead
11-19-2009, 07:14 AM
Modo is very close to the complete package, especially with another animation app, it's just a shame that it doesn't have the unlimited render nodes.

Q what's the limit on render nodes with Modo?

Mike_RB
11-19-2009, 07:28 AM
Q what's the limit on render nodes with Modo?

The license agreement limits you to 50 for each copy of modo you own, not really a restriction.

9.6.1
11-19-2009, 08:03 AM
It would seem that even when people say they no longer use LW their wallet tells NT differently... I would be curious to know how many people in this thread that claim not to use LW have bought core? Anyone?

-EsHrA-
11-19-2009, 08:41 AM
ive switched for most of my work to cinema4d.

mlon

biliousfrog
11-19-2009, 10:18 AM
The license agreement limits you to 50 for each copy of modo you own, not really a restriction.

Really?...I thought it was much less than that, like 5. Wow...ok, looks like I might have to jump in sooner rather than later.

Mike_RB
11-19-2009, 10:26 AM
Really?...I thought it was much less than that, like 5. Wow...ok, looks like I might have to jump in sooner rather than later.

And it's not enforceable except on paper (meaning there is no mechanism for checking). It's only in there to keep people who run render businesses from only buying a single copy. For the rest of us it's business as usual, considering you will probably have 2 or 3 copys of modo in the shop it covers really any reasonable farm size.

9.6.1
11-19-2009, 10:48 AM
Why wouldn't people be interested in Core just because they're currently, primarily using other software for their work? The developers at NewTek have done some pretty cool things with the old LightWave code, given the ancient architecture they've had to work with.

I must admit that I'm not a fan of certain NewTek management decisions or marketing efforts, but I know that the 3D development team is comprised of some very nice and very capable people. This was enough to jump on Core and see what they can do with a clean slate. I think some people will be surprised :)

Just because LightWave is hampered by being old doesn't mean that good things can't come from a fresh start, so I don't really get the point of the post I quote above. Where is the connection?

I wasn't trying to call anyone out. My point is that it sounds silly to say that you don't use a software when you have purchased the newest version that hasn't been released yet. That doesn't seem odd to you?

Mike_RB
11-19-2009, 10:54 AM
I wasn't trying to call anyone out. My point is that it sounds silly to say that you don't use a software when you have purchased the newest version that hasn't been released yet. That doesn't seem odd to you?

No, it's true. I don't use LW or Core, but own both. And by 'use' most of us don't mean, play around and file bugs, we mean work.

9.6.1
11-19-2009, 11:27 AM
well I guess as long as people keep buying lw it really doesn't matter if they use it or not to NT. I still think it odd to prepay for software that you don't plan on using, but to each his own...

Intuition
11-19-2009, 11:31 AM
Mike is right. I don't really use Core as such. But I was willing to pay up early to get going with Core from the beginning while it's in development. I trusted the developers on it given the work they've done on LightWave 9.x. I don't see anything odd here.

Same here, I just see Core as an opportunity for Mike and you and myself to bring in lots of videos in XSI, modo, Maya, etc showing how x,y,z are working in the workflow so we can present Newtek with ideas they may consider.

Giving examples for the arc of how Core can be made to work over the course of a project from modeling, animating, etc etc... to final rendering.

:thumbsup:

9.6.1
11-19-2009, 11:38 AM
Same here, I just see Core as an opportunity for Mike and you and myself to bring in lots of videos in XSI, modo, Maya, etc showing how x,y,z are working in the workflow so we can present Newtek with ideas they may consider.

Giving examples for the arc of how Core can be made to work over the course of a project from modeling, animating, etc etc... to final rendering.

:thumbsup:

man, you guys must really like NT... to pay for a product that you don't plan on using just so you can help them develop the product. With customers like you guys NT is set!

Soth
11-19-2009, 11:47 AM
man, you guys must really like NT... to pay for a product that you don't plan on using just so you can help them develop the product. With customers like you guys NT is set!

Was that sarcasm? We are paying little money ($395) to have influence on what we will get from NewTek. With other companies you get what you get... unless you are Disney or something.

cresshead
11-19-2009, 11:56 AM
with being on CORE there is def a 2 way converstion, ...they listen and we have infuence on the path they are taking which is quite nice to see for a change, newtek obviously have a dev path that's already laid out, we can help refine that path and make it much less bumpy so the journey toward a final v1.0 relase doesn't have any surprises.

hrgiger
11-19-2009, 12:37 PM
man, you guys must really like NT... to pay for a product that you don't plan on using just so you can help them develop the product. With customers like you guys NT is set!

I think its more a matter of people that have enjoyed using LW for some time that now see an opportunity to make it orders of magnitude better. Just because they are not currently using it doens't mean they won't come back to it when CORE matures. If you break it down, its costing us about $30 a month to follow development of CORE and of course that includes the final release. Not really a huge expense there.

I dont' think CORE is going to disappoint.

Stooch
11-20-2009, 12:40 PM
I tried pretty much every app there is. Some where wow, some were meh, some made me angry some made me happy.

Maya is my go to app, because im a pragmatist more than anything.

That and i actually like scripting and programming, so all the "you gotta code to use maya" quotes just make me say AAAAAH YEEEEEAAAAh. bring it on.

when core can compete with that... then it shall be broughten too.

Sarford
11-22-2009, 05:12 PM
I swiched to Silo for modeling and XSI for rigging, animation and rendering. I rarely use LW anymore, only for the very odd rendering job.
The reason I swiched to XSI (essential) was because I was looking for better rigging tools, I now know XSI better than LW.

I did buy into Core, just to see if NT can pull off an excelent rigging and animation system, but I'm also planning to get Maya (not sure yet).