PDA

View Full Version : fire, smoke, explosion, water, plugins



trentonia
11-06-2009, 08:22 AM
We have a few extra bucks to spend on stuff and I was wondering if anyone could recommend any great plugins, especially for fire, smoke, explosions, and water? Other plugin suggestions would be welcome too. Thanks.

OnlineRender
11-06-2009, 08:50 AM
a) buy 3dc if you aint already got it . (because anybody with a few extra bucks just should :D)
b) http://www.polas.net/smoke/
c) depends on your budget " how much would class as few extra bucks ?" rough (ball-park figure)

trentonia
11-06-2009, 09:14 AM
$1000.00-$2000.00 available. Does Polas fire and smoke work with 9.6? We're signed up for CORE. Are some of these things going to be improved in the CORE system. We're, I guess, more interested in fire, smoke and steam for rocket launches.

trentonia
11-06-2009, 09:16 AM
Also, where can I get 3DC?

lwaddict
11-06-2009, 10:01 AM
RealFlow if you want to get the most out of your money.

Otherwise, you could buy a bunch of rinky dink plugs and figure out how to best use them.

RealFlow will get you liquids and smoke...
funnels and jetstreams are still easily done in Lightwave without plugs though.

LazyCoder
11-06-2009, 10:03 AM
But IIRC Realflow runs at about $4000. :(

SplineGod
11-06-2009, 10:21 AM
Blender

Cohen
11-06-2009, 10:24 AM
what ever happend to Cantacan's work? Makes me sad. That would take care of 3 of 4 of what he wants to do.

SplineGod
11-06-2009, 10:28 AM
His site is always up and down but mostlly down.
Dont see much in the way of support either.

Andyjaggy
11-06-2009, 10:44 AM
I think Dynamite is officially dead actually.

Buy Max and Fume FX if you really need flame and smoke. Just ask Mr. Rid what a pain in the ***** it is to do in LW.

Etch
11-06-2009, 11:16 AM
Also, where can I get 3DC?

3D coat's website is: http://www.3d-coat.com/

I don't think they have anything in the way of particles or fluids, my understanding is that it's really good at sculpting and uv stuff.

Could be helpful if you ever get to make something extraterrestrial :D

Stooch
11-06-2009, 11:22 AM
RealFlow if you want to get the most out of your money.

Otherwise, you could buy a bunch of rinky dink plugs and figure out how to best use them.

RealFlow will get you liquids and smoke...
funnels and jetstreams are still easily done in Lightwave without plugs though.

eh... id think lond and hard about buying realflow. I recommend the rental licenses they have if you need VERY SPECIFIC THINGS.

ie, if you need to simulate hard bodies (not the fastest solver out there)

realflow is also good for water, wakes and waves. explosions? not really, unless you want to simulate ground being deformed or being tossed around, smoke... there are better apps for that.



if you have 2k, you are only 1k away from maya ultimate... XSI also has the ICE setup and also pretty close price wise.

if you just want to l earn, you can always get a copy of houdini, it starts at 99 bucks.


of course blender is always there. although its not really a consideration for buying right? since its free... just really awkward to use (IMO)

Andyjaggy
11-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Pretty sound advice stooch. Why spend 2,000 on a bunch of plugins, when for 3,000 you could just get maya and have everything work together nicely.

monovich
11-06-2009, 01:14 PM
http://vimeo.com/7435811

I want this.

hrgiger
11-06-2009, 01:42 PM
We're signed up for CORE. Are some of these things going to be improved in the CORE system.

Theoretically. According to Newtek, CORE is a unified dynamics envrionment where all forces will be able to work in unison. But its unlikely that dynamics will be in the first release of CORE and we don't know how long it will be until we do get them.
Don't care much for Blenders inteface at all but since its free, you may want to investigate it to see if it could meet your needs.

lwaddict
11-06-2009, 03:03 PM
Realflow doesn't cost 4k.
http://www.sharbor.com/products/NEXN0300002.html
and it works great for liquids, solid body dynamics, and the smoke is good too but you've got to really learn it for explosions and even then you'll be using hypervoxels (yuk) to texture that.

Can't argue with Stooch though.
At that price you could just get a full bodied package.

Check out Particle Illusion too...
for comping in things, nice cheap solution.
But again, you gotta learn it.
The site doesn't do the program justice.

DiscreetFX
11-06-2009, 03:27 PM
@trentonia

For Lightwave 3D, VT[5] or TriCaster?

OnlineRender
11-06-2009, 04:32 PM
.

Check out Particle Illusion too...
for comping in things, nice cheap solution.
But again, you gotta learn it.
The site doesn't do the program justice.

Particle Illusion
Hmmm ok , i know they use it in Backgardigans for an example .

"you gotta learn it."

if you can use the graph editor in LW you can use Particle Illusion .

Realflow is nice but thats a whole new app . telling you 3dc some cheap pluggins and goto LAS VEGAS with the spare change , for TAX reason put it under buisness trip :D

Stooch
11-06-2009, 06:38 PM
Theoretically. According to Newtek, CORE is a unified dynamics envrionment where all forces will be able to work in unison. But its unlikely that dynamics will be in the first release of CORE and we don't know how long it will be until we do get them.
Don't care much for Blenders inteface at all but since its free, you may want to investigate it to see if it could meet your needs.

Im using the dynamica bullet plugin in maya, had to do some scripting to get it to work but DAMN ITS FAST.

hey newtek, forget about your own solvers, integrate bullet or physx, they are free and have no restrictions commercially. i recommend dynamica over physx because its only slightly slower but has better accuracy and its open source, and is being rapidly adapted :)

of course it would be even better if we could choose a solver for each active body individually... hmmm is this dejavu? i remember saying this before somewhere..

jaxtone
11-09-2009, 11:19 AM
Is this an exclusive tool for the monopolistic Autodesk kingdom only?


http://vimeo.com/7435811

I want this.

SplineGod
11-09-2009, 12:07 PM
At least autodesk HAS a kingdom... :)

MachineClaw
11-09-2009, 12:37 PM
What ever became of Dynamic-Realities plugins? Napalm, Pyro, LumeTools, Impact??? Those were all solid LW plugins and were working up til 9.0 I think.

company site is gone as far as I can see. Did the two guys give up or jump ship to another application?

Intuition
11-09-2009, 12:37 PM
Im using the dynamica bullet plugin in maya, had to do some scripting to get it to work but DAMN ITS FAST.



Did dynamica/bullet ever release a 64 bit build?

SplineGod
11-09-2009, 12:41 PM
What ever became of Dynamic-Realities plugins? Napalm, Pyro, LumeTools, Impact??? Those were all solid LW plugins and were working up til 9.0 I think.

company site is gone as far as I can see. Did the two guys give up or jump ship to another application?

The actual developer works for Newtek.

cresshead
11-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Theoretically. According to Newtek, CORE is a unified dynamics envrionment where all forces will be able to work in unison. But its unlikely that dynamics will be in the first release of CORE and we don't know how long it will be until we do get them.
Don't care much for Blenders inteface at all but since its free, you may want to investigate it to see if it could meet your needs.

unified dynamics envrionment can also mean what you create and use a node to edit with will dynamically propergate to another object with the same node...or dynamically update it...

it does not mean core will ship with hard or soft body dynamics...:chicken:

the english language can be used to interpitate stuff many different ways..8~

cresshead
11-09-2009, 12:54 PM
At least autodesk HAS a kingdom... :)

Krakatoa is pretty cheap too...they used it on journey to the centre of the earth as well a 'flood' for the water and spray...all renderered in stereo too.

aurora
11-09-2009, 01:40 PM
My suggestion, as much as I love RealFlow is to get a copy of Houdini. It does fluids and well just about any other type of dynamic sim you could ever dream of. There's really only 2 major issues with Houdini. 1- Steep initial learning curve but you can catch on pretty dang fast and now a days there's tons of great tutorials. 2- the built-in renderer, 'Mantra', pretty much sucks for final production rendering but there are ways to deal with that and LW is one of them, in fact my personal fav. There is a third, money, but if you do any type of dynamics frequently including compressible and/or non-compressible fluids then it pays for it self quickly.

Intuition
11-09-2009, 03:59 PM
Im using the dynamica bullet plugin in maya, ......

Also, the nDynamics system is pretty complete, any reason you don't use it?

I use it even for simulating rigid bodies since its one unified system. nParticles, ncloth, nMeshes all talking to each other at the same time.

Still, going to have to try the dynamica 64 bit version. I found one in the bullet forums.

------------On Topic----------- Different apps.

3DsMax.

As far as "No nonsense", "plug and play", fire smoke, and particles, 3Dsmax has the quickest turnkey solutions with Fume FX and either after burn or pyro. These render fast, sim fast and look great. You can create matte objects in max for rendering and do FBX camera matches with FOV values. Or use point oven.

Maya.

Maya can do all that you need but its a learning curve. Its a bit slower at doing fumeFX style stuff with the fluid boxes since the rendering time is much slower then FumeFX for equivelant quality but it can do it very well. Plus the whole dynamics system, as I mentioned above is unified in the Ndynamics. Cloth, characters, particles, chains, everything interacts with no BS.

XSI.

XSI Ice is very capable and there are also some 3rd party plugs that use fluid box sims similar to maya or fumeFX. The voxel renderer in XSI that is ICE specific is easily the most up to date and fancy one in the Mray apps. I have never really use XSI for fluid box stuff myself though as I think fumeFX or maya fluids are better/easier. I prefer Maya's unified sim nDynamics over XSI's it has everything but getting them all to talk to each other can be tricky. You can do it in ICE now but I never got that far into ICE to give you an honest difficulty assessment.

Houdini. App I have the least experience with...

Houdini has a nice fluid box simulator, and is the defacto industry standard for particle and fluid effects. Almost all of the huge shots DD did in 2012 are really just big Houdini simulation shots. Still, even though Houdini can do amazing things we have had to make tons of custom Houdini tools for export to maya for rendering OR use a custom in house renderer called Storm. Mantra is like a clunky renderman. very capable but has lots of room to make crappy results and few correct results.

Lightwave has good old Hypervoxels. Really slow to render but can do some really neat things. You mentioned Polas plugs which are great but also need some massaging. I think basic hypervoxels do great rocket trails if you just tune a few settings to work on particle age. As far as fluid smoke though, Dynamite was all LW had and its really slow to sim and render and seems to have died. Was neat though for what it was. It had a great voxel previewer too.

------------------------

I'd recommend max or Maya but both are $$$ to get what you need. In max you'll need a copy of max and then on top of that the plug ins for fumeFX and after burn or pyro. This gets up around $4000-$5000.

Maya costs like $3500 now which is a good deal for its strong tool set.

XSI is around $3000 but you'll also need to buy the fluid simulator OR make your own from scratch in ICE.

Houdini, well... $10,000 is expensive but you can rent it I think which is much mroe cost efficient but then the rendering is another issue unless you have some TD's around that are able to output mi or vrmeshes to maya.

--------------------

Oh yeah, Realflow is great for fluids but for fluid smoke it will do particle movement really well but if you are going to end up back in LW I am not sure how well the LW voxel interacts with the BIN particles to drive particle age related effects. Last time I tried they were no go.

Intuition
11-09-2009, 04:33 PM
OOps, forgot one.

Cinema 4D. It is probably the lowest cost way of getting fluid smoke that isn't Blender.

Cinema 4D is really starting to compete with the big guys. I've seen motion graphic stuff done here at DD that would be hard in any 3d app, xcept maybe houdini, but C4D has a smoke simulator that is low cost called turbulence.

http://jawset.com/downloads.php

I'd say download a c4d demo and demo of turbulence and see what you can come up with. This is probably the lowest cost way to fumeFX like smoke unless you go blender.

jaxtone
11-11-2009, 04:10 AM
And at that moment every creative ambition from this guy became totally dead, or what? I just watched a demo of Lume Tools and a few of the other plugs but hey, they were kind of interesting. So how come the Lightwave dep. doesnīt develop these?


The actual developer works for Newtek.

(Originally Posted by MachineClaw:
What ever became of Dynamic-Realities plugins? Napalm, Pyro, LumeTools, Impact??? Those were all solid LW plugins and were working up til 9.0 I think.
company site is gone as far as I can see. Did the two guys give up or jump ship to another application?)

Netvudu
03-05-2010, 09:04 AM
I tend to agree a lot with Intuition round-up of FX boxes. 3d MAX is the most fire-and forget with Fume FX, Afterburn and letīs not forget it, the cool krakatoa. Unfortunately, the good thing about it is also its weakest point. When you need control I find MAX EXTREMELY limitating fx-wise. Maybe itīs because Iīm far from being a MAX guru, quite the contrary, but being a Houdini user myself I find MAX toolset too much of a black box. FumeFX is really fast, though.

I hate Maya for FX because it tends to give similar solutions to what I do in Houdini but using MEL scripting as opposed to node-based solution with simple expressions. Probably because of this I havenīt tried it long enough to discover its "goodness"...which Iīm sure it must have being so popular and all...

A few weeks ago I started playing with ICE and it looks fun, but unless youīre interested in other parts of the software, it doesnīt make much sense choosing this one as the learning curve will be as steep as Houdini VOPs...because itīs exactly the same system (not as flexible, but everythingīs multi-threaded...fastfastfast!) I have high hopes for ICE, unless Autodesk kills the app, that is.

Also, all of the above but Houdini belong to Autodesk, which as we all know, is the evil empire of the Sith. :p

My only disagreement with intuitionīs judgement was his downplaying of Mantra. I think itīs quite a strong renderer, both cost and hardware-efficient, and itīs only problem is the same one with Renderman, this is, having shading experts that really bring its quality.
If you are going to bring houdini price into matters, then when you speak about mayaīs rendering to renderman you gotta bring Renderman licenses prices to the table, and all of a sudden houdini becomes cheaper than Maya...not to mention the wonderful Autodesk yearly license policy...

Intuition
03-05-2010, 11:11 AM
I hate Maya for FX because it tends to give similar solutions to what I do in Houdini but using MEL scripting as opposed to node-based solution with simple expressions. Probably because of this I havenīt tried it long enough to discover its "goodness"...which Iīm sure it must have being so popular and all...
t is.


My only disagreement with intuitionīs judgement was his downplaying of Mantra. I think itīs quite a strong renderer, both cost and hardware-efficient, and itīs only problem is the same one with Renderman, this is, having shading experts that really bring its quality.
If you are going to bring houdini price into matters, then when you speak about mayaīs rendering to renderman you gotta bring Renderman licenses prices to the table, and all of a sudden houdini becomes cheaper than Maya...not to mention the wonderful Autodesk yearly license policy...

I heard that Houdini is now like $3000 instead of $10,000. Which is nice.

I will say that even though this thread is old, and the OP has probably moved on, that I do alot of fx work in Maya with no use of mel scripting. The nDynamics, fluids and particles are robust enough for a lot of different results without the use of mel. Also, Maya has a nodal view (connection editor) similar to Houdini (though not as robust as Houdini) that allows me to get in and out of any parameter from any numeric value in the whole app.

I don't want to downplay Houdini at all though. We use it at DD for lots of heavy FX work and it is robust. I just know that we use alot of custom render solutions since the Houdini staff here were limited by Mantra here and there though, like renderman, can be made to behave with a coder or two. Our Storm renderer is used to fill in the gaps though it needs an update or two as well. ;).

calilifestyle
03-05-2010, 12:21 PM
I was just over at sidefx. and well the price is 7995 for master. anyway did any one mange to export mdd files out of Houdini. I had way to many problems. so i just stopped trying hehe.

stevecullum
03-05-2010, 12:33 PM
anyway did any one mange to export mdd files out of Houdini. I had way to many problems. so i just stopped trying hehe.

Yep, using a third party node, which is easy to use.

http://undo.fi/houdini/mdd/

Intuition
03-05-2010, 12:39 PM
I was just over at sidefx. and well the price is 7995 for master. anyway did any one mange to export mdd files out of Houdini. I had way to many problems. so i just stopped trying hehe.

Oh, hmm, thought the price was lower. I stand corrcted. ;D

Netvudu
03-08-2010, 05:17 AM
You donīt need a third party plugin for mdd import/export in Houdini. It does so natively. Itīs quite simple.

Intuition, I didnīt suggest you were downplaying Houdini, just Mantra. I agree Mantra requires too much care depending on what you want to do, but so does Renderman. The difference to me is that Renderman has way bigger user base and as a consequence, itīs easier to get access to resources or people.

aurora
03-08-2010, 08:22 AM
Intuition, I didnīt suggest you were downplaying Houdini, just Mantra. I agree Mantra requires too much care depending on what you want to do, but so does Renderman. The difference to me is that Renderman has way bigger user base and as a consequence, itīs easier to get access to resources or people.

Down playing Mantra? No that would be me. Its great for quick testing or for volumetrics. Past that Mantra is way down on the list of renderers of choice for me, in fact I put it just above PovRay. OK I exaggerate a tad but not much.

rednova
03-08-2010, 04:15 PM
Hi:

I am impressed no one said this. For making fire, smoke, explosions and some water fx, hypervoxels is good enough, the results are amazing, and is already included with lightwave.
Why spend money on plugins when hypervoxels render good quality results ?
Just get a video tutorial from 'desktop images' for $ 49 and learn how to use hypervoxels. Hypervoxels is not only free..it yields good quality results.
If I was you, I would just use hypervoxels.
For $ 350, you can get full sasquatch from worley labs
And from about $ 400-500 messiah.
If you look at the hypervoxels video tutorial, you will notice how easy it is to make amazing FX for fire, smoke and explosions.
Cheers !!!

Rednova

aurora
03-08-2010, 05:13 PM
Its totally a function of what the required end results are. Agreed for alot of things LW's HV's work. For others not so much. As always its the right tool for the right job nothing more, nothing less.

SplineGod
03-08-2010, 05:30 PM
Not to mention that some things can be done with geometry and textures, practical effects mapped on polys or in comp, or even apps like blender. :)

aurora
03-08-2010, 05:44 PM
Don't forget Morphs! Gotta love morphs, heck displacement mapping to!

Netvudu
03-09-2010, 04:09 AM
Down playing Mantra? No that would be me. Its great for quick testing or for volumetrics. Past that Mantra is way down on the list of renderers of choice for me, in fact I put it just above PovRay. OK I exaggerate a tad but not much.

well aurora,....you are entitled to keep your opinions, of course,...even if they are way wrong :D

Seriously, Mantra is extremely capable in good hands, and for every day renders, not just volumetric stuff, but itīs obviously totally different from LWīs native renderer (which I love so dearly).