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Drakaran
10-30-2009, 08:05 PM
I'm not sure what's happening on the CORE forums, but the lack of updates where nonCORE people can see is not encouraging. Could someone give some kinda brief on where things stand with the future of LW please?

Cohen
10-30-2009, 08:11 PM
None yo' bidness,. ;D

UnCommonGrafx
10-30-2009, 08:34 PM
No.
When it's time, they'll tell ya somethin'...
It ain't time. So they ain't sayin'...

hrgiger
10-30-2009, 09:30 PM
Well, we've been asked not to discuss CORE outside of the CORE forums. Not as a rule but as a courtesy so I have to respect that.
But I hope as you do that some information will be revealed soon(publicly). We're down to the last 2 months in the year so things are a bit busy right now.

CGI Addict
10-31-2009, 12:42 AM
It's a pity really.

IMI
10-31-2009, 01:29 AM
I personally think some info - even just a tiny glimpse - of CORE's development should have been made public by now, being that it's just about November.
And I'm actually surprised there hasn't been anything at all since...when? May? June? I can't even remember now, it's been so long.
And especially after that long viral buildup, then just a few looks at a high poly dragon, a modo interface with nodes, and knowing that it will have a history stack.... and then nothing.

But even so, based on what little has been said, it's pretty common knowledge that CORE 1.0 will be an incomplete app, mostly just a modeling app still relying on its companion version of "Legacy+" LightWave to make it complete. LW 9.7? 9.8? 9.9HC? Who knows what it will be called, but it will be necessary.

Necessary until when though? CORE 2.0? CORE 3.0?

In any event, I think my paragraph above probably serves well enough to explain what the first CORE release will be, considering it's based on things that those at the helm have stated here and there.

Being that LW 9.6 is in open beta now, I'm assuming that things on the CORE front are going well and on time. Unless they really felt pressured to take people off CORE and put them on LW 9.6 again, but I would think that CORE would be the priority now, even more of a priority than LW 9.7 for us plebians.

Of course it's also possible that it has become a necessity now to work on LW 9.(7?), to get it developed further, because that could possibly be the base of the CORE companion version.

Just speculation. Confused? Me too. ;)

I suppose when CORE 1.0 is released, we'll have a better idea

OnlineRender
10-31-2009, 08:30 AM
nothing happened to CORE , CORE dosn't exist ! RULE 1:don't mention fight club .

robertoortiz
10-31-2009, 08:43 AM
Well, we've been asked not to discuss CORE outside of the CORE forums. Not as a rule but as a courtesy so I have to respect that.
But I hope as you do that some information will be revealed soon(publicly). We're down to the last 2 months in the year so things are a bit busy right now.


Yep he is right...

You should know that we are testing the hell out of it right now. And that the developers are listening to what we have to say about the program.

That is all I can say about it.

-R

zarti
10-31-2009, 09:16 AM
"What happened to CORE?"... nothing bad, don't worry. :D


I'm not sure what's happening on the CORE forums, but the lack of updates where nonCORE people can see is not encouraging.
the lack of updates means; they are totally immersed in the making of core.


Could someone give some kinda brief on where things stand with the future of LW please? sorry but this thing is absolutely :newtek:'s exclusivity.

non-core members should consider the fact that revealing the real core for the first time in public,
is not the same thing as revealing "the next version" of an long-time-existing software. this is important.





p.s.: i'm a core member...

Drakaran
10-31-2009, 12:31 PM
well, I'm pretty sure way back when all the lead up of CORE was released, they said we'd be getting an update in October. October's come and gone, and nothing. So, I'm figuring they're behind schedule. CORE 1 isn't even going to be a complete system? ugh

I know I remember they were saying something about a release of some sort in 4th quarter. I'm gathering that we're looking at 1st, maybe 2nd quarter of next year then for some kind of release?

UnCommonGrafx
10-31-2009, 12:43 PM
chuckle, complete system? They already said that would be the case.

What you don't know is what won't be discussed out here. Patience and you wil get the skinny when it's worth getting.

Leave your assumptions to the side.

IMI
10-31-2009, 12:56 PM
CORE 1 isn't even going to be a complete system? ugh


CORE 1 will be a complete system, just not all in one app, which is what it will *eventually* be. Read what I wrote above. CORE 1 will be used in conjunction with a newer version of "legacy" LW, and thus will be a "complete system".

I'm not a HC member, but the above has been outright stated by Chuck on several occasions.

hrgiger
10-31-2009, 01:05 PM
There was never anything said about an October update and it has been stated that CORE will not be a complete app by years end. There have been a lot of assumptions and rumors going around about CORE. Not to mention a lot of wild speculation. But I'm not here to dismiss anyones concerns. I lay a lot of the blame there is so much misinformation about CORE on Newtek. They said there would be more videos coming soon on CORE and they've been almost virtually silent since. It hasn't bode well for the marketing of CORE. But it's the usual story. Newtek- great developers, poor marketers.
That being said, while CORE is not going to be a complete app by years end by any means, I think some of you will be surprised at some of the things that are in CORE.

EDIT: Just saw your most recent post IMI. Yes, you are correct. CORE is a complete integrated system. Just because all the features it will eventually have aren't in there yet, doesn't make it any less true. The biggest misinformation I see, is assuming that CORE is just a modeler which it is not.

Animapper
10-31-2009, 05:46 PM
When Core was launched and those of us who signed on got started we were/are part of a unique experiment in software development. We are actively involved in how the programmers take the project. Perhaps this is the future of software development as Jay has pointed out.

Having developed 6 software products myself, I never considered this sort of involvement from the user community. Although my applications were not a tool like LW, I still didn't have much user base involvement.

So think of it like we are sitting in on the structuring of a great new application that will change the way 3D works. Development time always takes longer than we plan. I found the 2.2 rule worked well. If I think it will take me 6 months to code and get to testing it most likely will take 14 months!

Ciao,

Ĺgrén
11-02-2009, 01:14 AM
Delays are somewhat like a thumb rule in innovative software development. Worst is to push out a quick hacked program that cannot be loved - like a car without a shell and brakes.

I trust that all the HC program members monitor the quality and don't make insufficient compromises.

IMI
11-02-2009, 04:39 AM
Delays are somewhat like a thumb rule in innovative software development. Worst is to push out a quick hacked program that cannot be loved - like a car without a shell and brakes.

I trust that all the HC program members monitor the quality and don't make insufficient compromises.

I don't think there's any good reason to assume it's delayed at all, just because there's been no new public information in a while. I just wanted to say that, and I'm not saying I thought you were assuming a delay.

Based on what I know about some of the people I know who are in the HC program, I don't think we have to worry about compromises. Some of those guys are some pretty tough SOB's. ;)

doimus
11-02-2009, 09:03 AM
What bothers me the most is, if they release CORE as an "incomplete" app, it will stay incomplete in public minds, even after it is finally completed. People will be dissing CORE as that app that is not finished... just like people who still believe AMD cpus overheat more than Intel (like it was in 2001).

Eroneouse
11-02-2009, 09:35 AM
nothing happened to CORE , CORE dosn't exist ! RULE 1:don't mention fight club .

It does it does I have seen it... Oh right I see, seen it what did I see, well text and a cute little new cat for newtek. Awwww I hope that kitty is haveing fun today :) Can we have a new smiley based on the new cat please.

littlewaves
11-02-2009, 09:55 AM
well this page
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php

still says Q4 this year for a release and under the heading "What Is LightWave CORE" lists lots of features which it claims are part of of the software.

Note that this list is mostly written in the present tense. For example:

"LightWave CORE™ HAS a unified dynamics environment, which allows dynamics, physics, cloth, hair and other solvers to interact transparently with each other."

So unless you're really cynical (oh and I am BTW) I guess you should just assume that in the next two months NT will release this wondrous creation with all the wonderful features they mention on that page.

Did everyone who joined core get their T-Shirts in the end? Just curious:D

Wade
11-02-2009, 05:14 PM
is it the end yet? :D

hrgiger
11-02-2009, 05:38 PM
well this page
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/index.php

still says Q4 this year for a release and under the heading "What Is LightWave CORE" lists lots of features which it claims are part of of the software.

Note that this list is mostly written in the present tense. For example:

"LightWave CORE™ HAS a unified dynamics environment, which allows dynamics, physics, cloth, hair and other solvers to interact transparently with each other."

So unless you're really cynical (oh and I am BTW) I guess you should just assume that in the next two months NT will release this wondrous creation with all the wonderful features they mention on that page.

Did everyone who joined core get their T-Shirts in the end? Just curious:D

I would agree that the wording on the CORE page is not the greatest and can be misleading. But nothing on the page is untrue. If you look at it another way, there's not actually any real features listed on the page so they're not exactly promising anything specific (with the excpetion of the few videos which do showcase a few features). The part about the dynamics enivonment is referring to the architecture of CORE and the actual environment and how it handles solvers. They don't actually say that any type of dynamics are yet present in CORE even if they are implied. Just my 2 cents but I do wish they would change that part if dynamics aren't going to be involved at all for version 1. It would clear up a lot of assumptions/misconceptions about what CORE will be for the first release. The fact is though, we still don't yet even as members what capabilities CORE 1.0 will have.

OnlineRender
11-03-2009, 02:19 AM
YOU KNOW WHAT GRINDS MY GEARS --------Rant time


Personally I think the way NT have guided Core has been pretty decent and showed some respect to developers / users , OK they stumbled at the first fence "VIDEO" , but not one person here can say there marketing idea wasn't top class , everyone lapped up the viral flash, to the extent that people used google strings to dig deep into the project ,right clickin to view source and so on . "dare I say it , that was advertising at its best" ........

They choose the beta method to elite users , people with cash/investment or people that love to be in the mix of development and have a passion for LW /3D / NT .which can't be a bad thing , granted I would have ripped the balls right out of the codin myself ,but you have people like Matt ,who can write ,develop and test hardcore to the highest standard ,atbh I would rather tools / development was kept under-raps .
It's not like Blender where its open-source and free , its a professional tool in which they want to rival AD and all other main competitors ,mainly AD because they dominate the market ,I know that , we know that , they know that .

Where not dealing with newbie developers / directors here, the people have been in the business long enough to make the proper / correct choices ,even if you strongly disagree . there's far to much money to throw away to give petty remarks / posts a response , if you have real concerns just be patient , all will be seen "AT SOME point "...... you have to put faith in people you don't know , if Core hits the ground running LW users will be back on the map ! because as it stand there's 2 products which are going to be the in thing .....BLENDER & 3DC [fact]

EDIT : I'm not saying that this product will blow you away ,but it's a giant stepping stone ,it's 1 company trying to stay afloat at the same time delivering something new , take into the consideration LW 9.6 new beta is out , only so many things can done at 1 time ,hence why you have project management . Any person who lives in a realistic world knows this , stop moaning about moaning , who cares if they missed a full stop at the end of a sentence .

If you feel hard-done-by , sorry but life sucks to the highest ,there's more concerning issues in the world other than that a knife tool doesn't cut correctly or 2 polyz don't merge ..........

ahhhh feel better now .............NEXT !

PEACE

Kuzey
11-03-2009, 05:36 AM
And what grinds my gears....is we were told there will be more videos/information in the coming weeks...which have turned into months, which have turned into financial quarters. It's a little thing I know, but they said it and if you act like Newtek didn't say it or ignore it altogether..cough (Newtek) cough...well, then you get people to start thinking all other crazy things. Which nobody wanted and it's why you still get questions about the Core all the time :hey:

By my numbers, at least 12 Core videos should have been made public by now and a lot more written stuff :hey:

The time to get Core into a full standalone app will be more than one year...we all know this, but it shouldn't take ten years like some other app and still not be feature complete. I'm hoping for 3 years myself when LWHC is killed off...but that's just a dream :D

Then you run into other problems....if Core1 is not a full app then how can it be called Core1, unless Core is really just nothing more than the Modelling module of a larger app....then next year you get CoreWave1 the rendering module etc. etc. See, I'm talking crazy because there is no information what so ever..hehe :devil:

Also, will Core1 owners get Core3/4/5/6 for free because they paid for a full app and it only becomes a full app at a later date??

:D

Kuzey

Lewis
11-03-2009, 06:07 AM
What bothers me the most is, if they release CORE as an "incomplete" app, it will stay incomplete in public minds, even after it is finally completed. People will be dissing CORE as that app that is not finished... just like people who still believe AMD cpus overheat more than Intel (like it was in 2001).

But it's EASY for NT to get that straight even if it happens. Just Make CORE better than competing APPs and it'll be really easy to consider CORE as Better/Full app :). To backup your story - AMD didn't manage to do better CPU than Intel for last 4-5 years (since C2D core got out) and now i7 is also trashing them very hard, so that's why people still consider it less good :) :D.

Nicolas Jordan
11-03-2009, 07:51 AM
What bothers me the most is, if they release CORE as an "incomplete" app, it will stay incomplete in public minds, even after it is finally completed. People will be dissing CORE as that app that is not finished... just like people who still believe AMD cpus overheat more than Intel (like it was in 2001).

This type of thing has been done before. I can remember when Softimage XSI was first released with an incomplete tool set so they just shipped the old Softimage 3D with it to make up for it's shortcomings until it had a complete tool set. They are doing something similar with Lightwave. Any Core owners will also be owners of Lightwave 9.6.x, Lightwave HC(Cores temporary companion) and Core itself.

Lewis
11-03-2009, 07:58 AM
This type of thing has been done before. I can remember when Softimage XSI was first released with an incomplete tool set so they just shipped the old Softimage 3D with it to make up for it's shortcomings until it had a complete tool set. They are doing something similar with Lightwave. Any Core owners will also be owners of Lightwave 9.6.x, Lightwave HC(Cores temporary companion) and Core itself.

That's true BUT (there is always but :)) ho do you sell "unified app" (that's how core is marketed and essentially it's true) to new user and then explain to him that he has to use 3 applications (core, layout and modeler) instead one or two like LW had so far ?

robertoortiz
11-03-2009, 08:13 AM
Think of it this way...
Lw as you knew it has reached an evolutionary dead end.
Because of its outdated architecture Classic LW cannot go evolve any more.
So the idea behind Core is to develop a solid foundation that will allow for limitless growth potential. Right now think base CORE as a CG engine that will allow for the creation of tools that could only be dreamed of in Classic LW. And the level of integration of the tools will not have precedent.
But first you buld the CORE foundation of the app.

The thing is that Newtek has only limited resources, and this dual release approach is the best way to release a viable product into the market.

And BTW the Softimage example is a great one. And we all know that XSI turned out to be a GREAT program.

colkai
11-03-2009, 08:55 AM
When all is said and done, we'll only know what Core 1.0 actually is when it finally arrives.
To be honest, it is only at that point we can decide if Newtek have done what was expected and if CORE is worth the wait.

Personally, I have given up trying to figure out what may be. If it's worth the money and full-featured enough when it arrives to keep folks happy, well and good.
If not, well, then folks have to make up their minds if they wish to keep funding Newtek up front for future work or not.

Right now, we are playing a waiting game and are, to the most part, in the dark.

Lewis
11-03-2009, 10:10 AM
Think of it this way...


Roberto - I KNOW what is the way and what's NT doing (as far as reason behind making CORE, not how good it will be) but try to explain that to potential new users who would need to shell out 1495$ for it. That's the point, why would they want to give that much money and then be stretched/balancing in 3 apps for working properly if they can work in their app in single app environment? It's not what CORE will be or might be in future it's what it is at day of release as Colkai said.

Actually that's NT marketing job and NT DEVs job to make Core shine so that marketing can do some cool online stuff with hopefully great video examples and 30 days DEMO up on release to attract new people and current one to extend their subscriptions and buy new core licenses..

But let's stick to topic and look can we squeeze few more info from Jay :D.

[CORE question with HardCORE confidential information removed by the moderators. Not appropriate for outside the HardCORE forums.]

cheers and thanks

IMI
11-03-2009, 10:39 AM
And BTW the Softimage example is a great one. And we all know that XSI turned out to be a GREAT program.


You sure got that right! :D

***************************

I think it's still out there on You Tube somewhere but yeah, they did say in the initial "reveal" video that there would be more videos showing their progress.
Personally I don't consider what they did show later, with the dragon and the history and the customization tools to be anywhere near what I would have expected - nowhere near enough to sell me on it, and probably nowhere near enough to sell others on it either.
So nine months later that's a let-down, but it is what it is, and it's their decision, I guess.

I would have liked to have seen at laeast a road map. I would have liked to have known, for example, if the CORE 1.0+/Legacy LW combo would be able to meet my needs or at least come close. I mean, how's the CA? Any improvements there? What about FFX? Is it working? Will there be particles?
Seriously, I know all about what they said about CORE, that it will need a "companion" LW for the time being, but know virtually nothing about the nature of this "companion" LW, such as... is it the same old LW, or has it had major improvements? Or is its only major improvement the ability to work with CORE, like as an interchange plugin like Hub or something?

Not *knowing* any of this, and at a time when it really began to matter to me, when I decided I needed more features and more power, I decided to invest in Autodesk instead, specifically Softimage.
And why shouldn't I have, you know? NT gave me - the common, non-hardcore bystander - no real incentive not to, no real incentive to just wait a little longer.

Sure I could just "have faith" that it will be All That And More, and I'm sure it will be eventually, but I have no idea when or to what extent. And I can't base my decisions on what I would *hope" for, or *assume*. And I'm sure there are plenty others out here who feel the same way, who may have switched their allegiances based on their needs, not their hopes and assumptions.

I can understand NT's reluctance to say or show too much, but in many ways, this total blackout has been really annoying while trying to make a serious decision.

IMI
11-03-2009, 10:49 AM
Roberto - I KNOW what is the way and what's NT doing (as far as reason behind making CORE, not how good it will be) but try to explain that to potential new users who would need to shell out 1495$ for it. That's the point, why would they want to give that much money and then be stretched/balancing in 3 apps for working properly if they can work in their app in single app environment? It's not what CORE will be or might be in future it's what it is at day of release as Colkai said.




That's pretty much along the same lines as what I wrote above, but you left out something.
It's not just a case of trying to get new users, but also trying to keep old users. I can't help but feel that it's not a good idea to totally alienate your user base, which is what has happened here.
My avatar says "Non Hardcore Outcasts" on the ribbon and that was done as a joke that began in another thread half a year ago. But I knew it to be true then and it's still true now - we who have not joined hardcore are simply outcasts, alienated, ignored.
We've been given no reason whatsoever to maintain our loyalty, at a time when the competition has far too much to resist.

stone
11-03-2009, 11:05 AM
we who have not joined hardcore are simply outcasts, alienated, ignored.
We've been given no reason whatsoever to maintain our loyalty, at a time when the competition has far too much to resist.
you are only alienated because you choose to be or feel so. the other option was that newtek developed core1.0 behind entirely closed doors, just like most all other software development is done- quite contrary newtek actually involves a large group of its user to ensure they dont alienate their users.

when progress has been made and the project is in a state thats worth presenting you will get all the info, just like you would with any other program.

sure, its exciting and we are eager to see something, but we all know the amount of complaining and whining about lacks and details presenting something that is in development and only half baked always results in. better to keep quiet altogether.

/stone

Nicolas Jordan
11-03-2009, 11:17 AM
So the idea behind Core is to develop a solid foundation that will allow for limitless growth potential. Right now think base CORE as a CG engine that will allow for the creation of tools that could only be dreamed of in Classic LW.

A good example of innovation in a rewritten product going back to Softimage is ICE. Something like ICE probably would not have been possible in the old Softimage 3D but after XSI had time to mature some great innovations like ICE came about. It's to bad Autodesk bought XSI at the peek of it's innovation. I think that it's this type of foundation that the Core development team is trying to put in place in order in order to have dramatic innovations in the future much like the ICE example.

Kuzey
11-03-2009, 11:22 AM
you are only alienated because you choose to be or feel so.

I don't get that at all...are you saying because Newtek said there will be more videos/information and then don't deliver...that we are some how responsible for the way we feel, when said material hasn't appeared. It's a bit rich don't you think ???


the other option was that newtek developed core1.0 behind entirely closed doors, just like most all other software development is done- quite contrary newtek actually involves a large group of its user to ensure they dont alienate their users.

when progress has been made and the project is in a state thats worth presenting you will get all the info, just like you would with any other program.

sure, its exciting and we are eager to see something, but we all know the amount of complaining and whining about lacks and details presenting something that is in development and only half baked always results in. better to keep quiet altogether.

/stone

I have said all along that when new features are locked in, reveal it in a video and move on....it's that simple. The way you make it sound, is that none of the features have been finalized or new features unlocked...like animation tools etc. So...it's basically the same as when it was first launched, still stuck on modelling tools and nothing more.

Boy oh boy.... :D

Kuzey

IMI
11-03-2009, 11:35 AM
you are only alienated because you choose to be or feel so. the other option was that newtek developed core1.0 behind entirely closed doors, just like most all other software development is done- quite contrary newtek actually involves a large group of its user to ensure they dont alienate their users.


Well I don't know about that. I didn't choose to feel alienated.
What they did was have this massive viral campaign, get everyone excited, everyone interested, then say "oh btw, we're only giving information to our chosen few, our hardcore."
Which is fine because that was the deal, that was the product, that was the offer, and they are of course free to do as they wish.
So, OK, maybe on the one hand there is a large group of people who are actively involved and are not at all alienated, but then there are the rest of us totally - totally - in the dark. People who have been asking questions and getting no answers, people with decisions to make.
How could one NOT feel a little alienated in that case?

I'm not griping though, not at all. I'm just moving on, having seen no reason at all to count on LW/CORE in the immediate future. And all I wanted to do was explain why, not have to *justify* seeing it that way.



when progress has been made and the project is in a state thats worth presenting you will get all the info, just like you would with any other program.



I honestly think they would have done better to privately make CORE available to a select group of people. There's been a lot of hype about CORE since last February, but if you read it all, the majority of it is negative, the majority is people complaining about not knowing anything, and most of the rest of it is hardcore members defending it while saying, "it's good, but we're not allowed to tell you anything".

And then that whole "Super Member" thing also helped with the divide. Intentional or not, the whole things virtually screams "alienation".

They very publicly stick this shiny new thing in our collective faces and say, "sorry, you have to pay for information", then they attach "Super Member" to people's avatars, and then proceed to say virtually nothing about CORE for nine months.
How could us regular customers NOT feel at least a little alienated given all that?
Whether it's "correct" or "justifiable" to feel that way is one thing, but it is what it is.

hrgiger
11-03-2009, 01:22 PM
And then that whole "Super Member" thing also helped with the divide. Intentional or not, the whole things virtually screams "alienation".



Did Newtek attach the Super Member to peoples avatars? I don't recall if that was the case or not. I am a CORE member and clearly I am an Evil member and not a Super member.
And also, I don't like this whole oh you have to pay for information thing. Normally, as Stone made a good point of earlier, hardly any of us would know anything about CORE at this point other then the few snippets Newtek has released publicly. But since the public beta which started a few years before CORE ever came along, now registered owners of the next version of Lightwave are eligible to test the software while in development. This isn't a CORE thing but Newteks ongoing public beta program which I think is great benefit for both Newtek and users. The membership process is new, but the conept is just about the same.
But you'll hear no argument from me that Newtek could have handled the whole process better.

calilifestyle
11-03-2009, 02:44 PM
I personally think some info - even just a tiny glimpse - of CORE's development should have been made public by now, being that it's just about November.
And I'm actually surprised there hasn't been anything at all since...when? May? June? I can't even remember now, it's been so long.
And especially after that long viral buildup, then just a few looks at a high poly dragon, a modo interface with nodes, and knowing that it will have a history stack.... and then nothing.

But even so, based on what little has been said, it's pretty common knowledge that CORE 1.0 will be an incomplete app, mostly just a modeling app still relying on its companion version of "Legacy+" LightWave to make it complete. LW 9.7? 9.8? 9.9HC? Who knows what it will be called, but it will be necessary.

Necessary until when though? CORE 2.0? CORE 3.0?

In any event, I think my paragraph above probably serves well enough to explain what the first CORE release will be, considering it's based on things that those at the helm have stated here and there.

Being that LW 9.6 is in open beta now, I'm assuming that things on the CORE front are going well and on time. Unless they really felt pressured to take people off CORE and put them on LW 9.6 again, but I would think that CORE would be the priority now, even more of a priority than LW 9.7 for us plebians.

Of course it's also possible that it has become a necessity now to work on LW 9.(7?), to get it developed further, because that could possibly be the base of the CORE companion version.

Just speculation. Confused? Me too. ;)

I suppose when CORE 1.0 is released, we'll have a better idea
I agree. as if they are reinventing the wheel. I know if they dont want to show how they implement the wheel.

Chuck
11-03-2009, 03:15 PM
And then that whole "Super Member" thing also helped with the divide. Intentional or not, the whole things virtually screams "alienation".

They very publicly stick this shiny new thing in our collective faces and say, "sorry, you have to pay for information", then they attach "Super Member" to people's avatars, and then proceed to say virtually nothing about CORE for nine months.
How could us regular customers NOT feel at least a little alienated given all that?
Whether it's "correct" or "justifiable" to feel that way is one thing, but it is what it is.

NewTek did no such thing. Any avatars or "user titles" commented as "SuperMember" were customized by the user. NewTek made no annotations to avatars nor did we install a custom title for the HardCORE user group.

IMI
11-03-2009, 03:21 PM
NewTek did no such thing. Any avatars or "user titles" commented as "SuperMember" were customized by the user. NewTek made no annotations to avatars nor did we install a custom title for the HardCORE user group.

Oh well thanks for correcting me. I was led to believe differently though. I guess then what really happened is the members all did that on their own? So one person did it first and it just spread, like the yellow and black stripes?
Well I've brought that up many times in these forums in CORE threads and nobody ever bothered to enlighten me on the true origin.

Okay, then I apologize for saying that NewTek staff did that and I stand corrected. Of course, I meant all the rest of the stuff I wrote. ;)

IMI
11-03-2009, 03:30 PM
Did Newtek attach the Super Member to peoples avatars? I don't recall if that was the case or not. I am a CORE member and clearly I am an Evil member and not a Super member.
And also, I don't like this whole oh you have to pay for information thing. Normally, as Stone made a good point of earlier, hardly any of us would know anything about CORE at this point other then the few snippets Newtek has released publicly. But since the public beta which started a few years before CORE ever came along, now registered owners of the next version of Lightwave are eligible to test the software while in development. This isn't a CORE thing but Newteks ongoing public beta program which I think is great benefit for both Newtek and users. The membership process is new, but the conept is just about the same.
But you'll hear no argument from me that Newtek could have handled the whole process better.

Yes, I'm aware you're an Evil Member. :devil:

I think this is different though. While on the surface it may seem to be just another LW public beta, the big difference is they asked people to buy in advance without even knowing what they're getting exactly. yes, I know what was written about CORE and I know they said exactly what the terms were, but what I mean is potential CORE buyers then didn't know where LW would be at Q4, and you still don't know exactly, and potential customers still have no further information.

At any rate, I didn't write the things I wrote as any kind of argument. I'm not trying to convince you, NT, or anyone else about what they should or shouldn't do. Just my opinion, my take on it, and how it affected me, and how I believe it may have affected others.

Cohen
11-03-2009, 03:37 PM
rofl IMI, you made yourself a core avatar as well. =)-

IMI
11-03-2009, 03:42 PM
rofl IMI, you made yourself a core avatar as well. =)-

Not exactly - look closely. :D

Chuck
11-03-2009, 03:56 PM
But even so, based on what little has been said, it's pretty common knowledge that CORE 1.0 will be an incomplete app, mostly just a modeling app still relying on its companion version of "Legacy+" LightWave to make it complete. LW 9.7? 9.8? 9.9HC? Who knows what it will be called, but it will be necessary.

It should be common knowledge, considering that both Jay and I have talked about it since pretty much day 1. :)

That includes the following more recent post:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=923845&postcount=37

Apologies, we really haven't communicated about this much outside of HardCORE yet, but it is not the case that what is going forward with LWCORE is v9.6.

LightWave HC is current designation for the enhanced version of LightWave 3D that will be the companion for LightWave CORE, while CORE grows for the next few years. It has some new features, mainly for communicating with CORE right now, but there will be more, and internally it is versioned at v10. While a majority of our development effort is going into CORE as the new, unified application, we will also be enhancing LightWave 3D (or HC, if we keep that designation) where it makes the best sense to do so for the needs of our LightWave users.

It is also the case that we have one more v9.x update in the works, tentatively designated v9.6.1. It has a lot of bug fixes in place, as well as the long-awaited Cocoa code conversion which allows for a 64-bit Mac UB LightWave build to join the fold. As noted in my earlier post on this thread, we expect that to begin Open Beta sometime this month.

LightWave HC also includes the Cocoa conversion and a 64-bit Mac version.



Necessary until when though? CORE 2.0? CORE 3.0?

The crystal ball is still out on that one, but very likely at least up until we achieve 2.0. Even then, given the large legacy content investment many users have, it's not likely that we should be in any hurry to take the classic edition out of the package.


In any event, I think my paragraph above probably serves well enough to explain what the first CORE release will be, considering it's based on things that those at the helm have stated here and there.

There's a helm? Oh, wait a minute... :p


Being that LW 9.6 is in open beta now, I'm assuming that things on the CORE front are going well and on time. Unless they really felt pressured to take people off CORE and put them on LW 9.6 again, but I would think that CORE would be the priority now, even more of a priority than LW 9.7 for us plebians.

Of course it's also possible that it has become a necessity now to work on LW 9.(7?), to get it developed further, because that could possibly be the base of the CORE companion version.

Just speculation. Confused? Me too. ;)

I suppose when CORE 1.0 is released, we'll have a better idea

There is not going to be a v9.7. We have been working right along on the v9.6.1 update with the Cocoa conversion, in parallel with the development of CORE, and on a third parallel track on LightWave HC, which has new feature development in the classic codebase to complement CORE, and as noted above, is internally versioned at v10, meaning when plugins want to talk to it to get version info, that's how it will identify itself.

You'll get a glimpse into LightWave HC soon, as when we have some finishing touches put to the new linear/gamma correction workflow features, Matt Gorner will prepare a video on the use of the new workflow.

As for the next public info release on CORE, marketing and the content team are anxious to proceed, but everyone is being a lot more careful now. It was very clear that a lot of things were not at the stage they should have been for making our first public announcement of CORE, and now folks are making an effort not to get ahead of themselves, and to leave development the room they need to finish laying proper foundations for the application, and creating the initial workflows with which CORE will launch.

We realize that folks have businesses to run, and from Tim Jenison himself the word from NewTek is that by all means, we understand that when you have a project to do now, you have to find the tools that will do the job for you now. We don't ask anyone to put their livelihood on hold to wait for either information or new tools from us. We do hope - hope, mind you, not expect, and certainly not demand - to get consideration when we do bring new tools to the production table, and we do our best to make sure that getting back on board is no-brainer affordable. Our cycles of product information and product release are not going to coincide with everyone's project and need cycles, so we just do our best, and make it a great value to get back in when our new release does come around.

hrgiger
11-03-2009, 04:09 PM
At any rate, I didn't write the things I wrote as any kind of argument. I'm not trying to convince you, NT, or anyone else about what they should or shouldn't do. Just my opinion, my take on it, and how it affected me, and how I believe it may have affected others.

I wasn't making an effort to argue either IMI, just saying that this feels no different to me then the other LW public betas. As far as paying up front for not knowing what you're getting, true to an extent. Although in reality, we did the same for v9. Sure we had a list of features that we'd get at some point during the v9 series up front, but a few of them didn't happen (like the UV tools) which is why Newtek is taking a little more caution this time. But in the end, we ended up getting a lot more bargain out of v9 then we were ever promised.

IMI
11-03-2009, 04:32 PM
But in the end, we ended up getting a lot more bargain out of v9 then we were ever promised.


This is true and I've mentioned that a few times too. Overall, LW 9.6 turned out to be far far more than what it started out as. LW 9.0 feels positively ancient next to 9.6, and particularly the render engine's improvements are mind blowing. I had to stop using FPrime for a while there because of crashing with material nodes and overall instability and uncertainty, but as the LW 9.x cycle dragged on I realized I needed it less anyway, since LW's render engine got sooo much faster.

IMI
11-03-2009, 04:36 PM
Thanks for all the elaboration Chuck. I had forgotten that y'all were calling it LW HC, but I knew it was going to be an enhanced version of more or less current LW.
And thanks for the rest of your reply too. It is nice to see all this blathering on doesn't go unnoticed, and it's always cool to have you set the record straight when it gets warped out of recognition. ;)

Cohen
11-03-2009, 05:03 PM
**gulp** 8~ pitch forks & torches.

GraphXs
11-03-2009, 06:17 PM
It would be nice to also see the updates that will go into LWHC. Does newtek plan on enhancing and adding features to LWHC. What are those features? FiberFx updates?, Hypervoxel fixes, plugins? Modeler updates? (reduction of tools?)

jaxtone
11-03-2009, 06:51 PM
Why the heck did most every fan boy shouting at me when I said that I didn´t believe it before I saw it realized and ready... probably not this year!

IMI
11-04-2009, 04:12 AM
Why the heck did most every fan boy shouting at me when I said that I didn´t believe it before I saw it realized and ready... probably not this year!


Don't you think it's a little premature to decide that it won't be ready this year? I mean, Q4 still has nearly two full months left.
But if you meant that LW CORE won't be a full, standalone app by the end of this year, well, nobody ever said it would be. In fact they said many times it won't, ever since the beginning.

robertoortiz
11-04-2009, 04:46 AM
Keep in mind that a big chunk of the people on his thread are part of the Hardcore program.

UnCommonGrafx
11-04-2009, 05:04 AM
Umm,
- Because you've rarely shown to be the voice of reason;
- Many of your posts are ... filled with drama;
- Some of us have minds of our own;
- You make deragotory statements like the one below that put your words and thoughts into the bin of crud.


Why the heck did most every fan boy shouting at me when I said that I didn´t believe it before I saw it realized and ready... probably not this year!

stone
11-04-2009, 05:31 AM
I don't get that at all...are you saying because Newtek said there will be more videos/information and then don't deliver...
there was a new video out after the reveal. newtek didnt promise you anything. the closest to a promise is that "more information will become available closer to release"


I have said all along that when new features are locked in, reveal it in a video and move on....it's that simple. The way you make it sound, is that none of the features have been finalized or new features unlocked...like animation tools etc.
basically nothing is finalised until its released. everything can change, and probably will when we are talking an entirely new iteration of an application, until the very last minute. stuff will get improved, changed, or even entirely cut at the very last minute- that is the reality of software development.

im sure you will be among the firsts to complain when a feature demonstrated earlier was removed or changed, because suddenly then you were "promissed" this. just get over it.

/stone

Kuzey
11-04-2009, 06:54 AM
there was a new video out after the reveal. newtek didnt promise you anything. the closest to a promise is that "more information will become available closer to release"

Well, they have and they did. Just now Chuck has said that Matt will be making a new video on LWHC, which will be released to the public. But many things like that have been said in the past....remember the Q&A with Jay that the marketing department was double checking...that's many months overdue etc. etc....




basically nothing is finalised until its released. everything can change, and probably will when we are talking an entirely new iteration of an application, until the very last minute. stuff will get improved, changed, or even entirely cut at the very last minute- that is the reality of software development.

Surly Newtek has worked out the best way to bevel a polygon by now, or are they just going back and forth with the HC members on how best yo do that??

The reality of software development is you target a section of the program, get it done as fast and best as you can, then move on to the next section. You don't dwell on the one single issue for 9 months plus, change it four hundred times and still aren't sure if it's the best way a feature should work. If you get a better idea on how a feature should work at a later date, go and test it, if it works...change the base code, if it doesn't work don't add it. Simple stuff really.



im sure you will be among the firsts to complain when a feature demonstrated earlier was removed or changed, because suddenly then you were "promissed" this. just get over it.

/stone

Well, stone then you don't know me at all.

First of all, I understand that today's information supersedes yesterdays information and tomorrow's will supersede today's.

Newtek might reveal a very cool feature in a video and next month reveal another one saying they expanded the feature, but a few months later...say they hit a brick wall and are holding off on the feature for now. That is well and good, it shows Newtek is trying new things, some might work and some won't....which is a great and is in no way a "promise" as you say. The promise in all this, is to show information and there by show the progress of the Core, the features are an entity of their own....a different beast altogether. Showing off a feature is not a promise, it's showing the progress of development. That's common sense stuff with me.

There is another "promise" I believe and that is to make Core the best version of LW eventually...which I'm sure will happen :D

The fact Newtek is scared to show off something because it might be taken as a promise by you or some others is not my problem. In fact, it's easy to overcome, just point out in the video that the feature(s) might change or not make it into future versions etc.

Again simple stuff.

Kuzey

Kuzey
11-04-2009, 07:04 AM
The crystal ball is still out on that one, but very likely at least up until we achieve 2.0. Even then, given the large legacy content investment many users have, it's not likely that we should be in any hurry to take the classic edition out of the package.


Hi Chuck...do you have me on the ignore list or do my concerns need a little thought before commenting on them :D

Seriously, it's good to know it won't take ten years to kill off LWHC :thumbsup:

Any chance of making a utility program that converts legacy content into new Core content, that way you can strip the classic out sooner...just an idea. Or were you talking about 3rd party plugins.

Kuzey

cresshead
11-04-2009, 07:32 AM
can someone help me out here...i'm a little hazey on this cos of some of the replies above...

where's the end of q4?
is it today?..november 4th or december 31st?

looking forward to the reply!

Kuzey
11-04-2009, 07:44 AM
I believe it's December 31st, that's what a google search came up with.

Kuzey

-EsHrA-
11-04-2009, 07:52 AM
vidz?.... ... ..


mlon

stone
11-04-2009, 10:39 AM
Surly Newtek has worked out the best way to bevel a polygon by now, or are they just going back and forth with the HC members on how best yo do that??
surely they have, but that doesnt mean it can be shown off or that the surrounding system is in place. the gizmo might not be final, it might not draw or otherwise show correctly, or it might be done through some obscure workflow while other corners and subsystems are being worked on.
an application doesnt come together like that, but rather a lot of ends gets tied together when release draws nearer.


The reality of software development is you target a section of the program, get it done as fast and best as you can, then move on to the next section. You don't dwell on the one single issue for 9 months plus, change it four hundred times and still aren't sure if it's the best way a feature should work. If you get a better idea on how a feature should work at a later date, go and test it, if it works...change the base code, if it doesn't work don't add it. Simple stuff really.
i already explained the reality of software development and you repeating it doesnt change the fact that you cant show off early iterations and expect people to understand that they are just that. you are better off at waiting for the final product before presenting it as people otherwise will throw a fit about "promised" features or other lacks and loose ends. even if they are irrelevant for the actual tech demonstration.


First of all, I understand that today's information supersedes yesterdays information and tomorrow's will supersede today's.

Newtek might reveal a very cool feature in a video and next month reveal another one saying they expanded the feature, but a few months later...say they hit a brick wall and are holding off on the feature for now. That is well and good, it shows Newtek is trying new things, some might work and some won't....which is a great and is in no way a "promise" as you say.
it would be nice if it was true, but reality has persistently proven otherwise. even stuff clearly marked as work in progress or technology demos are again and again being spun by forum users as something bad one way or another.

if you understand it, fine, so much the better- but then you also understand why the general public simply arnt capable of understanding and dealing with it. newtek, and other companies, constantly get burned by doing just that.

/stone

Chuck
11-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Hi Chuck...do you have me on the ignore list or do my concerns need a little thought before commenting on them :D

Both? :devil:

There's over 93,000 forum users, hundreds of posts per day and sometimes thousands, just one of me, and I have a limited amount of time to devote to the forums. If I don't reply to every question everyone posts, please don't take it personally. :)


Seriously, it's good to know it won't take ten years to kill off LWHC :thumbsup:

Any chance of making a utility program that converts legacy content into new Core content, that way you can strip the classic out sooner...just an idea. Or were you talking about 3rd party plugins.

Kuzey

I had both content and plugins in mind with regard to legacy issues. We'll have LWS import, but a lot of the motion plugins and such we're not likely to be able to handle, especially third party offerings. In a lot of cases folks will just have to consider that they are bringing in the assets and basic animation, and those aspects of the scene that don't directly import will need to be redone in CORE (where they can probably be tuned up a lot better anyway).

Kuzey
11-04-2009, 02:02 PM
it would be nice if it was true, but reality has persistently proven otherwise. even stuff clearly marked as work in progress or technology demos are again and again being spun by forum users as something bad one way or another.

if you understand it, fine, so much the better- but then you also understand why the general public simply arnt capable of understanding and dealing with it. newtek, and other companies, constantly get burned by doing just that.

/stone

Not taking the other thread into account...which pretty much proves your point....well, kind of..hehe.

The main problem is not what is shown but when Newtek say they have something to show you soon and don't for whatever reason...I can guess why, they changed direction, got a better idea or are just too busy etc. etc.

But then they continue to ignore they made the statement and leave people hanging...that builds up anger later on and my guess is that's why you get the response you do.

I said before in another thread, I would be happy with something similar to the Mac Hotfix updates Chuck makes every week. Simple and to the point and I believe the response has always been positive from the Mac guys since it started. Let us know things are happening and progress is being made etc. Of course...videos would be the icing on the cake but I can wait for them...a bit more.

Kuzey

Kuzey
11-04-2009, 02:08 PM
Both? :devil:

There's over 93,000 forum users, hundreds of posts per day and sometimes thousands, just one of me, and I have a limited amount of time to devote to the forums. If I don't reply to every question everyone posts, please don't take it personally. :)



I had both content and plugins in mind with regard to legacy issues. We'll have LWS import, but a lot of the motion plugins and such we're not likely to be able to handle, especially third party offerings. In a lot of cases folks will just have to consider that they are bringing in the assets and basic animation, and those aspects of the scene that don't directly import will need to be redone in CORE (where they can probably be tuned up a lot better anyway).


hehe...good answer...I do like your sense of humor :D

Also, a couple good statements you made. Nice going and it does makes things clearer.

Kuzey

Drakaran
11-30-2009, 02:21 PM
I have to apologize. I never wanted this thread to become a slam-fest against NT or other users. I started this thread since I thought we'd heard something ('we' meaning non-CORE members) on the status of CORE's development by this point. Not any specifics, just that something was happening.

I want to thank Chuck VERY much for taking time to personally make replies as I was not expecting this, and am happy to receive the Nov LW newsletter which states more what I was expecting as an update.

I'd close this thread at this time to end further replies, but I don't see a way to do so. I hope this thread has been helpful in bringing answers about what's happening with CORE to other non-CORE LW users.

Matt
11-30-2009, 04:07 PM
Well, they have and they did. Just now Chuck has said that Matt will be making a new video on LWHC, which will be released to the public.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me! Assuming Chuck still wants me to, Chuck?

COBRASoft
11-30-2009, 05:57 PM
Matt: looking forward to it. I'm struggling with this linear workflow stuff :(

Matt
11-30-2009, 07:28 PM
Matt: looking forward to it. I'm struggling with this linear workflow stuff :(

Just waiting for clarification from Chuck / NewTek, as they may have this in hand already.

Chuck
12-01-2009, 01:36 PM
Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me! Assuming Chuck still wants me to, Chuck?

Yes, if you are amenable! :)

lwaddict
12-02-2009, 07:20 AM
Not sure Matt, but I believe Chuck just gave the "Amen" to your request.

;D

Matt
12-02-2009, 07:29 AM
Not sure Matt, but I believe Chuck just gave the "Amen" to your request.

;D

Have chatted to Chuck on Skype, will be looking at this soon.

Spomo
12-06-2009, 01:58 PM
I have a CORE question, as I sit here pondering whether to pay the 495 or not.....

As a LW user since 5.0, (up to and including 9.6) if I were to pay for the HardCore Membership do I get a "beta" (using the term loosely here) copy to play with now until the released version ships?

I guess I'm just confused as to what "tangibles" the 495 gets me at this moment, other than the membership card and a t-shirt. :-)

Sorry if this wasn't the right thread to ask, but I figured I would take a shot.

Thanks.

-Spo-

Lewis
12-06-2009, 02:18 PM
I have a CORE question, as I sit here pondering whether to pay the 495 or not.....

As a LW user since 5.0, (up to and including 9.6) if I were to pay for the HardCore Membership do I get a "beta" (using the term loosely here) copy to play with now until the released version ships?


YES you get every "Beta" build up to release of V 1.0 and you get V1.0 also.

hrgiger
12-06-2009, 02:31 PM
YES you get every "Beta" build up to release of V 1.0 and you get V1.0 also.

I'm not sure if this has been clarified or not and maybe Chuck can chime in here. But since the membership is valid for a year, that should also entitle you to 2.0 beta builds post 1.0 release. Meaning, if you bought a membership now, and CORE 1.0 is released by the end of the month, then you should have access to the beta forums and builds that are beta for version 2. Although you would only be eligible for the 2.0 release if you bought the following years subscription.

Eroneouse
12-06-2009, 02:45 PM
Err is this mythical T-shirt a part of the 9.6/CORE bundle available to all because if it is how do I get the T-shirt. Everything else is good as far as what was delivered but I have not seen any T-shirt yet :D

Marshun
12-06-2009, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure if this has been clarified or not and maybe Chuck can chime in here. But since the membership is valid for a year, that should also entitle you to 2.0 beta builds post 1.0 release. Meaning, if you bought a membership now, and CORE 1.0 is released by the end of the month, then you should have access to the beta forums and builds that are beta for version 2. Although you would only be eligible for the 2.0 release if you bought the following years subscription.
I'm glad you said that hrgiger because I was starting to wonder myself with this first year's end getting close. I'm not talkin' about the end of the calendar year either.


I have no ID card, no t-shirt: ... not wearing anything; but I got a CORE. Because I CARE.

Who said that?

lwaddict
12-08-2009, 07:49 AM
Err is this mythical T-shirt a part of the 9.6/CORE bundle available to all because if it is how do I get the T-shirt. Everything else is good as far as what was delivered but I have not seen any T-shirt yet :D

LOL, I'm with this guy!

I know Core's gonna be something I'll be happy with but this t-shirt is a deal breaker! Where are the pics?

:cursin:

Speedmonk42
12-08-2009, 11:51 AM
With all this LW to Core stuff, and LW stuff in general, or perhaps all products.

Newtek Pre Sales Forum.

That way questions don't get lost in other forums and they are not lurking next to users questions.

Just a thought.

Silkrooster
12-08-2009, 04:50 PM
With all this LW to Core stuff, and LW stuff in general, or perhaps all products.

Newtek Pre Sales Forum.

That way questions don't get lost in other forums and they are not lurking next to users questions.

Just a thought.

I like this idea as well. As long as people who do not like Newtek for one reason or another don't take advantage of that forum. Hopefully a moderator will immediately remove any of those threads. As I find them disruptive. There are other areas where they can make there views known to the world.

Speedmonk42
12-08-2009, 11:39 PM
I like this idea as well. As long as people who do not like Newtek for one reason or another don't take advantage of that forum. Hopefully a moderator will immediately remove any of those threads. As I find them disruptive. There are other areas where they can make there views known to the world.


There is also a great deal of familiarity among the users. Which can work for or against you depending what they are talking about.

A pre sales forum kept just for that might be very useful to people.