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pro---studio
10-05-2009, 03:46 AM
Hi,

many TC users are asking for sports graphics and animated lower 3rds. It is really hard to do that in TC without extensive efford.

What about enabeling the EXT source as a selectable live set?

Then it would be possible to use LiveText as a source for scorebugs / sport graphics and overlay it to any input you want. The only thing is - TC should use the alpha channel that Livetext provides.

Then the DSK would still be free to use animated graphics from an DDR.

Enableing EXT as LiveSet with alpha - Can this be done in a further update of TC?

Cheers

Pro

joseburgos
10-09-2009, 07:59 AM
It already allows you to assign a LiveSet to EXT but what LiveSet does not allow is any alpha channels with-in the input. You can only use LiveMatte and you have stated.

I remember reading/hearing the new HD model of TriCaster will have the ability the transition the FX bus. If that is true, then the LiveSet you and I made would allow a better workflow to fade on and off the FX bus with a LiveSet using FX over Input.

I would also like the key values assigned to the EXT to be used in Overlay as well if the alpha channel can not be passed which I was told is a huge deal to incorporate into the hardware.

By giving us the ability to do either transition FX or use EXT key values in Overlay in the existing line of TriCasters would be a great benefit to all users.

Take care,

pro---studio
10-09-2009, 08:20 AM
I would also like the key values assigned to the EXT to be used in Overlay as well if the alpha channel can not be passed which I was told is a huge deal to incorporate into the hardware.

I don't think it is too hard to implement this. Because TC already does that with a TXT source. You can use a still TXT as Live set and TC uses the alpha channel to key it in. So why not use the alpha channel of Livetext?

I also think that it takes much less cpu power to overlay something with alpha channel then to do a live matte.


Cheers

Pro

joseburgos
10-09-2009, 08:29 AM
Ah in LiveText, I can understand that. But not "EXT" as that relates to iVGA as well when you say EXT. Transmitting the alpha of another computer via iVGA is not so easy at all.

I would agree 100% on what you wrote but note that LiveText is not sending the alpha. It is sending the same CG/Title file format that Edit Text creates for Overlays. So it is really not the same.

ACross
10-10-2009, 09:18 PM
Unfortunately the TriCaster is simply not have the additional bandwidth and processing power to add alpha channel to the effects. This capability will be available in XD300 however where the combination of an input alpha channel AND a chroma key can be applied at the same time.

Andrew

pro---studio
10-12-2009, 07:52 AM
Hi Andrew,

but why can TC handle the Livetext Input with alpha?

And why can TCB do an LiveSet overlay from a CG file? Then it must be possible without any more CPU power to overlay the LiveText input as virtual set.

Cheers

Pro

ACross
10-12-2009, 09:58 AM
Hi Andrew,
but why can TC handle the Livetext Input with alpha?
And why can TCB do an LiveSet overlay from a CG file? Then it must be possible without any more CPU power to overlay the LiveText input as virtual set.

I think you might be getting two different things confused here. It is correct that LiveText can send alpha channel over the network. That said, LiveSets on TC NEVER allow alpha channel to be incorporated in them unless it was generated by a LiveMatte.

joseburgos
10-12-2009, 03:08 PM
Is LiveText really sending the alpha channel or is it just sending the CG file format information that TC understands?

ACross
10-12-2009, 03:53 PM
Is LiveText really sending the alpha channel or is it just sending the CG file format information that TC understands?

LiveText actually renders and sends the video frames - with alpha channel - over the network.

Andrew

SBowie
10-12-2009, 04:03 PM
It seems this would have to be the case (setting aside workarounds) inasmuch as it needs to be able to support alpha from 32bit images used in the remote source pages (as opposed to merely 'regenerating' the page on the TC using font and vector object info from the remote LT system).

joseburgos
10-12-2009, 04:40 PM
OK so then there is no way for this ability to be added to another program? A plug-in that sends the rendered files in this same format?

Oh and just because I am now more curious than before when I thought it was just a CG file format, does this mean a LiveText scroll or motion text is rendered out frame by frame instantly and instantly the alpha is used in TC and it plays out smooth?
Remember, I do not own LiveText so not aware if it can send out a real-time scroll.

Thanks,

ACross
10-12-2009, 08:00 PM
OK so then there is no way for this ability to be added to another program? A plug-in that sends the rendered files in this same format?


It is absolutely possible for a remote application to send a TC frames with alpha channel (and we offer the SDK to send us frames to anyone what wants it.) That does not mean however that the TC is going to be able to use Alpha channel from a remote source in a LiveSet. This is a capability that TC does not have. XD300 will be able to do this.



Oh and just because I am now more curious than before when I thought it was just a CG file format, does this mean a LiveText scroll or motion text is rendered out frame by frame instantly and instantly the alpha is used in TC and it plays out smooth?
Thanks,

That is correct.

pro---studio
10-13-2009, 04:03 AM
But then please tell me how TC can overlay a CG source in a live set and use the alpha channel. That is what I don't understand. I can assign a CG source as liveset and it keys in with alpha channel on every input that I want.


There must be someone wrong here.

Cheers.

SBowie
10-13-2009, 06:34 AM
Perhaps this is a terminology issue, but when you "assign a CG source" (whether from a networked LiveSet source, or from the Text module) as a LiveSet input, it does not have embedded alpha. You can apply LiveMatte to any LiveSet input, but that is it.

The only place in TC where the alpha channel is used is Overlay.

pro---studio
10-13-2009, 08:24 AM
Hi Steve,

maybe I have an "alien" TCB but my TC does use alpha.

Try that:

Assign a TXT SOurce as Live Set for any input. Use a CG file with alpha as source. Switch the channel live - and voilla!!!

You will see the CG file overlayed to the channel WITHOUT Livematte. It uses the alpha provided in the CG file.

Just tried it after your post because after that I wasn't so sure anymore about this - but now I am. TC uses the alpha from the CG File. The Tricaster already does this - and therfore it must be possible to use Livetext as source for the overlay.

Cheers.

joseburgos
10-13-2009, 08:53 AM
Can you break that down a little more so I can try it please?
I can select TXT on any bus and have a Title template display that has alpha but I don't understand what you mean by selecting it as a LiveSet?

Thanks,

SBowie
10-13-2009, 09:27 AM
I had already tested this repeatedly before writing, by (separately) assigning a suitable LiveSet to both EXT (with a LiveSet CG feed) and TXT. In both cases, the alpha was ignored. The background of the LiveSet is completely obscured by black where the alpha would be transparent.

Likewise, I have a custom LiveSet which puts the Overlay channel content in front of the main input. I tested this with a title template and also a 32bit PNG image selected (but not displayed) in the Overlay section. In both cases, the 'transparent' area was solid black, completely hiding the main row selection 'behind' it.

As I said, AFAIK the only place where embedded alpha is supported is in Overlay.

joseburgos
10-13-2009, 10:45 AM
Always been the same here but curious about what Pro is getting.

pro---studio
10-13-2009, 03:27 PM
OK,

maybe my English is good enough so I'll try to explain it step by step what I did:

-Create a Title in TC "Text Edit" (upper tab row) and export it for live
-change to the Live Production Tab (upper tab row) and select the "input setup" Tab (lower tab row)
-Use any input you like (I used DDR2 for testing) and select "Edit Text Desktop" as LiveSet Scene
-Select your created Title as "Shot"
-Enable the LiveSet Button
-See your Text overlayed to the channel (in my case DDR2) that you applied the LiveSet to.
-See that it uses the alpha provided with the title.
-See that LiveMatte is NOT activated to overlay the title to the channel.


I hope you understand what I mean. If this is possible it should be possible to overlay a LiveText Source as LiveSet too.

joseburgos
10-13-2009, 03:40 PM
Ah now I understand :)
This works because it is embedded into the LiveSet and no longer a live feed via a bus input.
Same is for all LiveSets that have alphas embedded into them but it does not pass alpha via an input.

Take care,

pro---studio
10-13-2009, 03:52 PM
Yes I understand that but it uses the alpha of the text title page. So it should be no problem to use the alpha of LiveText and embed that into a liveset. If TC can do this with a text page it sould also be able to do this with a livetext page.

SBowie
10-13-2009, 04:22 PM
Ah now I understand :)Yeah, me too. Thanks for explaining.

You process causes a bitmap of the title page from Edit Text to be embedded right into the LiveSet shot when it is compiled. (You can do much the same thing with any 32bit still image using the standalone LiveSet Constructor.)

This is not really the same thing as supplying a feed from LiveText as a (full-motion) input to the LiveSet. The title in your case is 'baked' right into the shot, just like any other foreground bitmap (say, the desk in many of the studio style LiveSets). Keep in mind that the LiveSet itself, setting aside the full-motion input you supply to it later when applied, is effectively a layered still image - just one frame.

pro---studio
10-14-2009, 03:29 AM
OK but that could be done with an update of the specific bitmap. There just had to be a little script that TC reloads the image of the bitmap every x seconds.

SBowie
10-14-2009, 07:26 AM
Not really - the details well above my head, but you're essentially talking about compiling, loading and displaying 25-30 (depending where you live) individual LiveSet shots per second (the utterly crippling factor is almost certainly the first one).

I'm not saying nothing can ever be done; I'm just saying that it is clearly very far from trivial, and very far from LiveSet technology as currently implemented. It's much simpler to overlay an image with embedded alpha on top of the LiveSet output (which is, of course what Overlay does).

Quiet1onTheSet
10-14-2009, 11:25 AM
On behalf of all other readers here, let me state how much I appreciate Steve's, Josť's and Andreas' (a.k.a. "pro---studio") interaction on this subject, which at the first appears quite mysterious to many a TriCaster user, indeed!
:thumbsup:

Q1