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cresshead
09-21-2009, 08:14 AM
are clay sculpts really nessasary these days for film/tv productions?


Tamas Varga
"The character modeling workflow in the movie VFX industry has always been like this...
Artist creates clay sculpt, it gets digitized into a point cloud, modeler builds tidy mesh on top of this reference. Now we are at a stage where the clay maquette isn't necessary, you can sculpt on the computer and thus do it faster and cheaper. Retopo tools are far more advanced then before, too.

Big budget productions and lead CG characters will still require real, physical clay sculptures for the approval process though. It still looks different in real life then on the computer. Maybe stereo 3D will change that, but I wouldn't be that sure."

really?

with sculpting apps and 3d modeler apps like lightwave do they really need a Physical model on a desk when the end goal is going to be "on screen"...and NOT a plastic toy in a box of cereals...

for me i just find the whole idea silly, antique and there to serve excecutive's Egos...nothing more...
totally not helpful to have a clay sculpt and can actually make a production longer and more expensive to boot.
For me just feels like they don't want to let go of the steam age...

a digital sculpt is 'on screen'
the final result will be 'on screen' in the film/tv show
a real model is NOT 'on screen'...completly useless!

'traditions'...we make THE best buggy whips in the world...err. yeah but we moved on to make cars ole chap!

...okay... glove laid down...
chime in! :D

pming
09-21-2009, 08:31 AM
Hiya.

I guess you could say the same thing about books too, right?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

jameswillmott
09-21-2009, 08:59 AM
Some people just don't 'get' a form unless they can physically hold it.

Same thing happens in archvis, I often work with modelmakers who build a physical model of the building I am virtually rendering. Seems redundant, but there you go.

shrox
09-21-2009, 09:04 AM
I don't even use concept sketches, it's just an extra step.

Dexter2999
09-21-2009, 09:05 AM
Some people just don't 'get' a form unless they can physically hold it.

Same thing happens in archvis, I often work with modelmakers who build a physical model of the building I am virtually rendering. Seems redundant, but there you go.

Seconded.

I designed a workspace. I advised the people working in the space about multiple issues with their requests. I even tried to demonstrate drawbacks/advantages with a previz.

They didn't understand any of what I was trying to say or show them...until it was built and they were unhappy with it.

biliousfrog
09-21-2009, 09:44 AM
Clay sculpts aren't always just for the modeling departments, they can also be used for surfacing and for creating physical props such as prosthetics.

Have you seen some of the processes used in Benjamin Button?

It is very rare that a film involving creature models will be 100% CG. When characters are required to look real in real environments with real actors surely it is easier to work with 'real', physical materials that react to our real world lighting to ensure that they will sit well in the real footage? Often the models will be digitized but the surfacing departments will also reference the painted latex casts to ensure that they get the correct SSS and translucency...based on the work by traditional artists who have created something that looks real in our world to the naked eye not on a computer where lighting has to be faked and renders take time.

Those physical models can also be used on set for reference for actors, perhaps made into suits for actors or used as props - such as acting as a dead character.

I understand your argument but you've missed a lot of the reasons FOR physical models.

shrox
09-21-2009, 10:04 AM
[QUOTE=biliousfrog;928789]...It is very rare that a film involving creature models will be 100% CG.../QUOTE]

You mean it is rare that a GOOD film rarely involves creature models will be 100% CG...

Compare "An American Werewolf in London" to "An American Werewolf in Paris"

cresshead
09-21-2009, 11:57 AM
clay sculpts for prostetics that will be applied to a real human and may also have cg versions TOTALLY DOES make sense to have..much like my example of sculpts for a plastic toy which will be produced but 100% cg character in a 100% cg feature does not 'need' a 100% real clay sculp.

if they need something to hold in their hands why not a 3d print?

for a ALL cg film/show looks to me to be a people thing...probably the accountant's brain needs to 'see the money/hold the money' so to speak.

having a clay sculpt of buzz lightyear, bolt, mr incredible,space chimps, fly me to the moon or pocoyo seems a bizarre idea to have unless the reason is the TOY line offshoot from the film was being discussed where the film/tv design will need to be adjusted to work 'in the real world' of plastic moulded toys and beanie soft toys.

i'm gonna bet computer games do not go thru this phase ususally unless again it's for the related toy maketing line...even then we now have 3d printers...mr clay sculpture chappie needs to start to also learn zbrush/3dcoat/mudbox...

http://www.3darttopart.com/images/gallery/gallery_protonninja_large.jpg

http://www.3darttopart.com/images/gallery/gallery_icepondfish_large.jpg

http://paulreynolds.me/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/3d_model_printing_service_bureau_03.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gHLi5No8dSY/SRQ9ic4h4lI/AAAAAAAABck/0R1uf3iOm40/s400/3D-Printer-Uses-A4-Paper-Mcor-Technologies-1.jpg

http://3dcreationlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/070709_1357_3dprintingb1.jpg
http://3dcreationlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/070709_1357_3dprintingb2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEn9ycbzXe0

indianna jones
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=94791

another 3d print...hulk
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=102775

cresshead
09-21-2009, 01:15 PM
another couple of 3d prints..

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=103127

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=100601

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=100595

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=100132

so..'clay'....cheap to buy, heavy to carry around!
no copy/paste...no 'save as'...:tsktsk:
no symetry tool...:bangwall:

if i need 'real' i'd go for a 3d print...

Dexter2999
09-21-2009, 01:43 PM
Yeah, but if you want to make changes to a clay sculpt they don't cost as much as redoing the digital model then paying for another 3d print.

COST. And, clay sculptures are ART. They make nice keepsakes from projects. They have value in that they are originals and not just one of a series that can be cranked out by a machine. Sure the copies can have value as well but that is like comparing the value of an original work vs. a lithograph from a limited series.

probiner
09-21-2009, 01:46 PM
cresshead i think you're looking at the end of the process only. Its a filled in surface printer. Wich is great.

But clay or whatever is dependent on the person's creative process. Stop motion animators have a relation with their characters that "makes envy" to 3D, drawn, etc animators.

altough in this video you have movable parts (don't know why) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt3EGgtSAUc , clay allows you to "layer" stuff, study the engaging of parts, etc, better then a filled surface printer.

Cheers

cresshead
09-21-2009, 01:50 PM
making changes is simpler on a digital model...you can have the guy 'there' in the meeting with zbrush/3dcoat and make the change...done, dusted...zero cost...zero time...instant result.

compare this to 'clay'...make the change in realtime...in the board room...
take the new clay sculpt...
re scan it again into a 3d point cloud...
get someone to re topologise the point cloud into a usable mesh...
get them to re sculpt the details into zbrush 3d coat etc...

..see...'silly=clay' :devil:

and please stay away from the art=soil !!...oh dear..here i go!:lol:

Dexter2999
09-21-2009, 02:55 PM
okay, staying away from the art= argument.

Your client wants to see the sculpt. You printed it out. They want to see you shave a few millimeters off the nose and see how that looks. You say "Sure, let me pull up my model and send the file off to the 3d printer and we can have by this afternoon sometime" The clay guy says "Done, whaddya think?"

3D printing is perfectly legitimate for rapid prototyping. But when dealing with the whimsy of aesthetic changes and making a client happy they don't fill the bill as well as clay.

You do know that car manufacturers still make full scale clay models of the cars they design? There is something about dealing with the scale in actual 3 dimensions instead of virtual 3D that isn't ready to be replaced.

And when the client keeps making changes the clay guy is changing his one model and you are racking up a heap of plastic. Of course this works in your favor if the client says "Nah, I liked it better before."

Dexter2999
09-21-2009, 02:57 PM
making changes is simpler on a digital model...you can have the guy 'there' in the meeting with zbrush/3dcoat and make the change...done, dusted...zero cost...zero time...instant result.

compare this to 'clay'...make the change in realtime...in the board room...
take the new clay sculpt...
re scan it again into a 3d point cloud...
get someone to re topologise the point cloud into a usable mesh...
get them to re sculpt the details into zbrush 3d coat etc...

..see...'silly=clay' :devil:

and please stay away from the art=soil !!...oh dear..here i go!:lol:

No, not rescan. You scan once you have a finalized model. Not every incarnation..

UnCommonGrafx
09-21-2009, 03:43 PM
What a notion you new age people come up with.

Haha, sounds like something heard in the back rooms of Xerox when they were about to 'revolutionize' the world: "we're gonna save trees!!"

These things have their price, someone that wants them and they fit on an ego-desk quite well: they aren't going anywhere, fear not.

Silly = the idea that clay is going away.

cresshead
09-21-2009, 05:32 PM
Silly = the idea that clay is going away.

..buggy whips..., typewriters, standard bulbs, data fax, steam engines,
steam ships, sega systems, fox hunting, telephone 'dials', 7" records and 12" L.p's!
crt televisions..4:3 aspect ratio screens...betamax, vhs, audio cassettes, DAT, minidisc...
laser discs...8track tapes, reel to reels...isa slots, parralel ports..

i'm not saying making stuff with 'clay' is silly...but the proccess of approval 'needing'
a clay sculpt on someones desk to look at really is a thing with a restrictive 'future' in film and tv
productions...

yeah..." silly" :D
no doubt it'll stay for a while but if i were a clay sculpter working in the industry my number 1 thing would be to gear up
in zbrush/mudbox as soon as possible.

Silkrooster
09-21-2009, 05:50 PM
..buggy whips..., typewriters, standard bulbs, data fax, steam engines,
steam ships, sega systems, fox hunting, telephone 'dials', 7" records and 12" L.p's!
crt televisions..4:3 aspect ratio screens...betamax, vhs, cassettes, DAT, minidisc...

yeah..." silly" :D

There are people who use all of those on the list. None of them truly go away, they just aren't a standard any more. Some people are historians at heart and love the old technology. So the same will be true for all type of art media.

cresshead
09-21-2009, 05:54 PM
There are people who use all of those on the list. None of them truly go away, they just aren't a standard any more. Some people a historians at heart and love the old technology. So the same will be true for all type of art media.


i see no conflict in your view..
the standard is changing...from clay to digital..

KillMe
09-21-2009, 05:56 PM
nah fact is its more fun to sculpt with clay - tactile feedback is so much nicer than a mouse and monitor - using your fingers thats where its at

and think about it this way if the pro's do it with clay models its pretty good bet they have a solid reason for doing so

just because you can do it on a computer doesn't make it better - and your zbrush mesh will probably need retopographed, new displacements maps generated normal maps new texture maps etc when you make changes and until its printed out its subject to artificial lighting and renders which are never as real as the real thing

and as noted they are used for more than just making a computer based version - real props and masks and costumes etc are cast from them

UnCommonGrafx
09-21-2009, 06:16 PM
Standard, you have a point.
Going away... Not a chance. Your terms can change but the facts remain. As will clay. ;)

cresshead
09-21-2009, 06:38 PM
Standard, you have a point.
Going away... Not a chance. Your terms can change but the facts remain. As will clay. ;)

did you mean to write 'fax' or facts?? :D:lol:

wacom
09-21-2009, 06:54 PM
IF you can show them that it saves time AND money then eventually even the bean counters will be on your side.

Had a client pass up my working on a project (mainly because I was out of town) and they had to end up shooting photography and video instead of rendering it. I don't think they'll make that mistake again after hearing what a PITA it was compared to working with me and there for digitally...

Oh well...

I think there will always be a place for clay...but digital sculpting and printing are gaining fast on that industry- it's just a mater of time before clay is the lesser in terms of use (though never going away). I feel the same way about most sketching.

Tablets are clunky to port around with laptops, but pens, pencils and paper are cheap- and provide a large work area and ideal "feel" for bluing etc. I'm sure the day will come with a good digital sketch tablet comes out...but right now paper and pencil win hands down for sketching ideas esp. on the go IMHO. While I love my DS and things like the ipod look promising to some degree, you just can't escape the fact that making a gesture at 2.5 inches vs. 10.5 is a lot harder and less forgiving.

Silkrooster
09-21-2009, 09:41 PM
There are still people who can not stand the computer, but that is slowly changing and should change within the next generation or two. Touching clay is the same mentally as as those that prefer books over pdf's. The technology just has to catch up in those areas. It may one day be feasible to see some type of interface for the computer that will allow your hands to physically mold an object. But alas that day will probably be way down the line possibly after my lifetime. We already have 3d printers and scanners but the price is still too high for the equipment and the materials needed. But as their demand increases, the prices should fall.

jameswillmott
09-21-2009, 09:50 PM
... prefer books over pdf's.

Really?

Books are far more comfortable to read, easy to carry with you, you can take them anywhere, they never run out of power, they look good sitting on the shelf, you can press flowers with them, prop open doors, splat flies, level tables etc.

Give me a good book any day. :)

Ĺgrén
09-21-2009, 09:52 PM
It's easier to design if you eyeball in natural stereo mode. :)

The "undo button generation" has problems understanding the value of these kinda things.

Sekhar
09-21-2009, 10:24 PM
What we need is the kind of cool stuff Intel is developing: mutating matter (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2009/02/25/eod.program.matter.cnn).

probiner
09-21-2009, 10:28 PM
I feel the same way about most sketching.


I did 2 years in Painting degree before changing to Multimedia (woo hoo, i can and i must use computers) and in those 2 years, plus the 3 years before that, i drew like crazy, made comics, animation, drawing with a stick, with duck tape, with paper cuts, engraving...

But now, after 4 years, i don't even pick the sketchbook. And when i pick it, i think "What am doing?", "Oh right, you would like to draw again, like a 'normal' person".
I blame my tablet, lol. After doing a lot of drawning and drawn animation (cintiq), i do miss the material drawing hunger i had. But today i can't go a without the undo, the layers, the moving around... It's... downgrading in a level while in the same time something is lost.

Cheers.

Dexter2999
09-21-2009, 11:23 PM
Really?

Books are far more comfortable to read, easy to carry with you, you can take them anywhere, they never run out of power, they look good sitting on the shelf, you can press flowers with them, prop open doors, splat flies, level tables etc.

Give me a good book any day. :)


In High School, my cousin used an unabridged dictionary slammed on her forarm to burst a cyst.


Let's see you do that with a PDF.


But seriously ebooks are usefull. I think it's great you can have an entire reference library in one little pad.

Books are enjoyable. I like the feel of books. I like to have a shelf full of books I have read. I like loaning them out to friends to enjoy.

I like some of the pieces posted here as 3D prints. But I don't have the same reverence for them that I hold for sculpture...especially a one of a kind piece.

cresshead
09-22-2009, 12:55 AM
In High School, my cousin used an unabridged dictionary slammed on her forarm to burst a cyst.


Let's see you do that with a PDF.


But seriously ebooks are usefull. I think it's great you can have an entire reference library in one little pad.

Books are enjoyable. I like the feel of books. I like to have a shelf full of books I have read. I like loaning them out to friends to enjoy.

I like some of the pieces posted here as 3D prints. But I don't have the same reverence for them that I hold for sculpture...especially a one of a kind piece.

use a Kindle! :goodluck:
ohh..end of Kindle>> permanent door stop!:D

aaronv2
09-22-2009, 01:55 AM
As with most discussions both have pros and cons... however I was watching the special features on Hellboy II lately and Guilermo del torro was taking a look at some of the clay models of his creatures for the films. And he wanted a change made that matched HIS vision of what he wanted. So he literally started messing with the model in front of him to give the artist a better idea of what he wanted.

I think that if a director has a certain idea in his head he is far more capable of conveying it with something low tech like a sketch or some modeling clay. You cant expect guilermo to know how to use zbrush and make changes to his ideas that way. And perhaps in the future when alot more technology in art becomes acceptable there will be directors that can model in 3d and use a wacom tablet and etc.

I guess it comes down to money like it always does. and which pipeline will be cheaper for the director.

dmack
09-22-2009, 02:19 AM
Wow, I had no idea that the '3D print' models were so good now...

Having seen those, I'd say traditional clay sculpting has had it's day as a main pipeline thing. Sculpting on the computer adn then 'printing' just has too many advantages over the physical sculpting.

prometheus
09-22-2009, 02:34 AM
Play dohh..anyone? Im sure simpson would agree:)

how do we get marble sculpture out from the computer?

Well if I had the time and a studioplace and if society was willing to spend
on statues and sculptures, I think Ill rather work with that than anything else, but that´s not the case in modern society.
Love to fool around with plasteline and plaster, If I had the space and If I didn´t need to clean up.

would be nice to get me a super 3d printer to start convincing the city beaty council that sweden needs more fabulous buildings or statues made
in new techniques..then Ill sculpt away in zbrush,mudbox or 3d coat.

Michael

cresshead
09-22-2009, 04:02 AM
would be nice to get me a super 3d printer to start convincing the city beaty council that sweden needs more fabulous buildings or statues made
in new techniques..then Ill sculpt away in zbrush,mudbox or 3d coat.

Michael

http://www.digitalstoneproject.org/portfolio/sculpture/12

http://www.digitalstoneproject.org/inc/portfolio/sculpture_photos/13.jpg
http://www.digitalstoneproject.org/inc/portfolio/sculpture_photos/12.jpg
http://www.digitalstoneproject.org/inc/portfolio/sculpture_photos/18.jpghttp://www.digitalstoneproject.org/inc/portfolio/sculpture_photos/19.jpg

how BIG do they want it?
http://www.dezeen.com/2009/06/22/radiolaria-pavilion-by-shiro-studio/

lwaddict
09-22-2009, 07:37 AM
Have you guys been on a set?

"Oh, ya know... how about we have it tear this side of his face off? How'd that work?"

Clay sculptors go to town, and have appliances by morning...
or if using Dragonskin Silicon...that same day.

Go ahead...ZBrush it...export...send it out...get your 3d print...cast and mold...and there it is...one hella overpriced piece...

And they may have changed their minds argh!!!

Maybe when these prototype printers become more commonplace...
for now, those sculptors are needed.
And maybe, just maybe, someone will make an all CGI for the fx work flick that's any good...you get that going and it'll push the sculptors out a little quicker.

But if you've worked on a really solid project, you'll know that it's the marriage of the two crafts that pulls off the best shots. Why choose when you can have it all right?

cresshead
09-22-2009, 08:07 AM
Have you guys been on a set?

"Oh, ya know... how about we have it tear this side of his face off? How'd that work?"

Clay sculptors go to town, and have appliances by morning...
or if using Dragonskin Silicon...that same day.

Go ahead...ZBrush it...export...send it out...get your 3d print...cast and mold...and there it is...one hella overpriced piece...

And they may have changed their minds argh!!!

Maybe when these prototype printers become more commonplace...
for now, those sculptors are needed.
And maybe, just maybe, someone will make an all CGI for the fx work flick that's any good...you get that going and it'll push the sculptors out a little quicker.

But if you've worked on a really solid project, you'll know that it's the marriage of the two crafts that pulls off the best shots. Why choose when you can have it all right?


you need to read the thread a little bit closer as i've said repeatedly...and i'll repeat for those who are word blind:D

all cg productions...you know..err ALL..like no prostectics..
kapeesh?:hey:
to quote a famous film...did IQ's drop sharply whilst i was away?
:devil:

it's an entertaining thread anyhow:)
roll on the hate mail....i can take it...till i cry that is!

Riff_Masteroff
09-22-2009, 08:50 AM
..buggy whips..., typewriters, standard bulbs, data fax, steam engines,
steam ships, sega systems, fox hunting, telephone 'dials', 7" records and 12" L.p's!
crt televisions..4:3 aspect ratio screens...betamax, vhs, audio cassettes, DAT, minidisc...
laser discs...8track tapes, reel to reels...isa slots, parralel ports..



There are people who use all of those on the list. None of them truly go away, they just aren't a standard any more. Some people are historians at heart and love the old technology. So the same will be true for all type of art media.


i see no conflict in your view..
the standard is changing...from clay to digital..

http://www.somersetsteamandgas.org/pasture_party.html

Hope I am not too off topic. Its just that memories of two Sundays ago remain sharp. Present were approximately 20-30 steam tractors plus some antique gas tractors. The steam tractors had nothing at all electrical. All worked just fine. They don't ever need much in the way of repair, just some love and care. Most were owned and operated by farmers. One was owned by a machinist who works at a power generating plant.

dweinkauf
09-22-2009, 11:18 AM
I just came in from breaking up some ground with my 60-year-old Gravely tractor and cultivator. I have to switch attachments so I can use a plow to move the dirt. After that, I'll put on the front mower to do the last mowing of four acres of grass and cross-country trails. When that's done, I'll mount the snow blower attachment for the winter. This old relic has and will outlast anything made today. Some great old things never die - sort of like sculpture. That reminds me that later today I have to get to work on a treatment for a film I hope to shoot on an internationally-known sculptor and friend.

wacom
09-22-2009, 11:30 AM
I did 2 years in Painting degree before changing to Multimedia (woo hoo, i can and i must use computers) and in those 2 years, plus the 3 years before that, i drew like crazy, made comics, animation, drawing with a stick, with duck tape, with paper cuts, engraving...

But now, after 4 years, i don't even pick the sketchbook. And when i pick it, i think "What am doing?", "Oh right, you would like to draw again, like a 'normal' person".
I blame my tablet, lol. After doing a lot of drawning and drawn animation (cintiq), i do miss the material drawing hunger i had. But today i can't go a without the undo, the layers, the moving around... It's... downgrading in a level while in the same time something is lost.

Cheers.

I'm not arguing against using it for final work, or even for using it to do rough concepting, just that for rough sketching on the go I think paper and blue pencil are more than legit. I think the tech will get there...but still carry around a large tablet...notebook...etc. when I can have a 3oz set ready where every I go...

Besides...at this point of the process for me undos are almost irrelevant. I just start with a light line and work towards heavier lines. Now come the final work that is a different story...

wacom
09-22-2009, 11:36 AM
Some points to ponder on:
Have you seen a designer scribble an idea on paper? You'll not be able to surpass that speedwise in 3D on a computer for a long time. And especially the process of finding the character can not be beaten by digital tools - for now.



Yeah, nobody in a meeting wants to sit around waiting for you to load painter/PS, and then either hookup to a projector or pass around the laptop for simple rough sketches.

If you're meeting over the net then it might be a different story, but still...if you're having to UNDO to many times, your in need of more practice because you're trying something that is beyond your skill level anyway. Great for learning...not for execution...

Dexter2999
09-22-2009, 11:48 AM
Which do you think picks up more chicks in bars?
"What do you do?"
"I'm a sculptor. Want to see my studio?"

or

"What do you do?"
"I'm a 3D artist and I run a 3D printer. Want to see it?"

cresshead
09-23-2009, 02:19 AM
alternativly....

Which do you think picks up more chicks in bars?
"What do you do?"
"I'm a sculptor. Want to see my mallet"

or

"What do you do?"
"I'm a 3D artist and I run a 3D printer. Want to see my Oscar for visual fx?"

cresshead
09-23-2009, 05:13 AM
Huh?? "VFX" maquettes are done by 3D printing in your book? Sorry, don't get it...

that's what they did on the last 'jones' movie....crystal skulls..:thumbsup:

hollywood is changing..over to digital ole chap..digital film camera's,

just 0's and 1's now!:D

cresshead
09-23-2009, 07:36 AM
hey, i'm just here to 'work the spoon'...get converstions on subjects 'animated' so to speak!

KillMe
09-23-2009, 05:25 PM
alternativly....

Which do you think picks up more chicks in bars?
"What do you do?"
"I'm a sculptor. Want to see my mallet"

or

"What do you do?"
"I'm a 3D artist and I run a 3D printer. Want to see my Oscar for visual fx?"

the chick will be gone just after you utter 3d so what ever else you have to say will not work

cresshead
09-23-2009, 05:32 PM
also... what about characters with floating parts of their anatomy?...like eyebrows floating in thin air abve their heads... for toon type characters or ones with disjointed joints..? surpose you could add some cocktail sticks or wires to try and support them..not ideal though as you'll net ba able to see the character properly...

clay scultures have their downsides as well as up...just as 3d sculpts do.

probiner
09-24-2009, 06:00 PM
the chick will be gone just after you utter 3d so what ever else you have to say will not work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdzooQQDWGg :D

Girl: "Yes, yes, very interesting, but... Do you have condoms?"
Boy: "I can print one!"