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View Full Version : I'm in need of fluid smoke for a VFX gig



OlaHaldor
09-10-2009, 12:53 PM
I've been offered a job. Mainly it was making a car explode with debris etc. No problem.. But then they asked for smoke in a shot that didn't go as planned, due to heavy wind during shooting - so their REAL smoke just blew away with Mother Nature.

I understand that Cantarcan Dynamite is not an option, cause the website is literally gone and so is the guy behind the plug-in. Is there any other options to do this inside LightWave? NOT PARTICLES AND HYPERVOXELS. I need FLUIDS! :)

If not in LightWave, what other options are there? Price? Crazy steep learning curve? :devil:

Go on guys, SOMEONE must know something.:thumbsup:

tyrot
09-10-2009, 01:28 PM
dear ola

check blenders smoke videos...It looks pretty good and fast..
Otherwise you gotta step into FUMEFX world which is a plugin for MAX ...

But weird thing is in this ultimately talented LW plugin writers Guild, how come someone cannot come up with a smoke-fluid system i really dont get it...

Dpont? Lightwolf? Is it hard to get an implementation from Blender or something?

Best

Cageman
09-10-2009, 01:32 PM
Realflow has a very good solver for doing fluidbased smoke.

OlaHaldor
09-10-2009, 01:43 PM
Wow, two replies already!

tyrot, I've recently seen the Blender 2.5 smoke fluids system, and it looks AMAZING! However, it seems it's not yet released.

And unfortunately, Max + FumeFX is way beyond what I would spend for such.

Cageman, I'm not sure I quite follow. ?

Titus
09-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Wow, two replies already!

tyrot, I've recently seen the Blender 2.5 smoke fluids system, and it looks AMAZING! However, it seems it's not yet released.

Here we go again. Blender is open source, it's always available the only difference with a commercial app there are two versions: stable and unstable. Go to graphicall.org and download the unstable version.

4dartist
09-10-2009, 02:47 PM
FumeFX is decent for smoke. Not easy to use, took a couple days to get smoke to do what I was wanting. Need a PC and 3dsmax though. Camera matching from LW to Max is a B*#@! though.. We had to buy polytrans to get it right, even then it hates zooms and such.

PointOven wasn't cutting it.

OlaHaldor
09-10-2009, 02:50 PM
Allright! THANKS! Now I have Blender 2.5, but I don't understand an inch of it. The guides I find don't cover v2.5, and cause of the difference in interface, I'm pretty much stuck. ;D

nemac4
09-10-2009, 02:53 PM
Particle Illusion may help though it isn't fluid smoke. Very easy to use and not that expensive.
http://www.wondertouch.com/movies/pe/wt_pro_emitters.mpg
http://www.wondertouch.com/

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 03:58 PM
i have particle illusion , and i would suggest against it . nice for kiddie effects "no offence to the software " admitly you have nice control over the varibles but i would stay away from it ill post an AVI to show you the results, surely LW can handle it , if you have the right person at the wheel .

OlaHaldor
09-10-2009, 04:05 PM
Hmm.. Don't think Particle Illusion would do it for this gig. They want photorealistic effects. As I see it, fluids is the only way to go. Question is just how I'm gonna get there, either with Blender or something else that I possibly can afford..

Man I'd love to get my hands on Dynamite. *sob sob sob*

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 04:25 PM
fake it with after Effects ,trapcode or some equvilent pluggin , After Effects has some really good stuff going on .

Edit Real Flow sounds like your answer

Cageman
09-10-2009, 04:33 PM
Cageman, I'm not sure I quite follow. ?

www.nextlimit.com

(their site seems to be down at the moment though).

Cageman
09-10-2009, 04:37 PM
PointOven wasn't cutting it.

Interresting...

PO from LW to Maya regarding cameras is working really well (Zoom and all that stuff included). Have you guys sent some testcases that has this issue to Mark Wilson?

OlaHaldor
09-10-2009, 06:20 PM
fake it with after Effects ,trapcode or some equvilent pluggin , After Effects has some really good stuff going on .

Edit Real Flow sounds like your answer

Would you be able to point me to an example or tutorial on how to make believable smoke from a smoke grenade?

I have a hard time thinking I can pull it off without fluids.. :question:

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 06:43 PM
www.videocopilot.net

Edit : Gary Coleman " I ain't no Search Engine "

(",)

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 07:17 PM
straight up i can see your understanding for fluids , but theres fine line for project scope, did you add deprication onto your quote .... the client gets what the client pays for ....

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 07:20 PM
how to make believable smoke from a smoke grenade?

I have a hard time thinking I can pull it off without fluids.. :question:

add-on " i slated partical Illusion earlier " kidie physics but in-turn a grenade yes ... its all about final results vs cost .....

Stooch
09-10-2009, 07:22 PM
Would you be able to point me to an example or tutorial on how to make believable smoke from a smoke grenade?

I have a hard time thinking I can pull it off without fluids.. :question:

for simple smoke lightwave HVs should be able to do it just fine. just requires alot of observation and tweaking... its not something that can be explained in one post though. its like trying to explain what makes for realistic sculpting.

emit some particles, play with volume hvs... rest is all about the density, opacity, color and dissolve ramps along with a nice texture setting...

Intuition
09-10-2009, 07:24 PM
fume FX is the go to for this. I had a photoreal smoke effect coming out of it in under an hour on the first try two years ago and the sim times and render times were fast.

But if you can't use fumeFX then probably Blender would be the next best bet. I have not used blender since they added the fluid meshing like realflow, which it was really good at.

Do not go dynamite. It is very very slow to simulate and even slower to render.

Houdini can do the fluid smoke too but... I think you'll need at least the $99 version to even try it and even then I am not sure what limitations there are when rendering with that entry version.

XSI has an ICE module for like $100 that does fluids but I have not tested it myself. I imagine a 30 day demo might get you there, if you are willing to buy the ICE module but... then you have to learn fast. ;D

http://www.mootzoid.com/html/XsiCorner/emFluid2.html#Downloads

As far as camera matching goes I use FBX or point oven but you still have to watch out for FOV (either horizontal or vertical num values) as well as things like the camera having a target which would then need to be considered on export.

tischbein3
09-10-2009, 09:19 PM
Well you should be aware that Blenders 2.5 smoke is still under heavy development and in its current state can be still very unstable. (mem-leaks other crashes and inconsistencies might occur)

Best source to learn are imho the developer site itself, wich does also features some videos:
http://www.wxtools.com/
and a discussion thread on blenderartists.org:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=158317

hope this helps
chris

OlaHaldor
09-11-2009, 01:08 AM
Wow, a nights sleep DO wonders! :) Thanks for all your replies guys.

$99 for a license to use Houdinis smoke possibilities?! Are you kidding me?! :o

This short film is shot and edited in 720p, and there's two shots containing smoke, both are them are on fixed camera, so camera matching isn't gonna be too much of a problem.


@ Stooch: I'm not very familiar with the LW particles. How hard would you say it's gonna be to do degrees of viscosity etc?

MentalFish
09-11-2009, 01:21 AM
Its not production ready, but perhaps you can get a smoke pass out from the latest build of blender 2.5 ?

http://graphicall.org/builds/index.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjpV6AlGk8A

OlaHaldor
09-11-2009, 02:45 AM
Allright, I'm gonna check if I can get either Blender or Houdini to do some magic... :goodluck:

Thanks for your help so far guys.

jwiede
09-11-2009, 02:48 AM
Just a head's up: Blender's fluids are extremely memory-hungry. You should play around to make sure you can get the resolution you need on your system.

OlaHaldor
09-11-2009, 02:50 AM
Awh crap!! Houdini won't install on Snow Leopard. Constantly get an error on the end of the installation.

OlaHaldor
09-11-2009, 03:16 AM
After some further searching around, I came across this fancy, inspiring piece of art: http://www.vimeo.com/6045312

tyrot
09-11-2009, 03:42 AM
Dear PLUGIN writer

Read this thread and see how scattered your community is ...and write a even basic fluid plugin...for lightwave...thank you

Best

virtualcomposer
09-11-2009, 04:03 AM
Is Houdini an "eye pooping" asset to employers or potential clients? Is it a bridge to not having to know 3D Max or Maya? I can't wrap my brain around those two apps no matter how much I try to get along with it. Houdini seems to be a little more workable in my opinion. In these hard times the more you know and the more you can be versitile the better chances of finding work. I'm also looking to get Photoshop and dreamweaver certifide by Adobe so hopefully that will help.

MentalFish
09-11-2009, 04:29 AM
Dear PLUGIN writer

Read this thread and see how scattered your community is ...and write a even basic fluid plugin...for lightwave...thank you

Best

:) when Blender 2.5 is out of beta and I have learnt some more phthon scripting, i'll make some LW <-> Blender scripts :) Think of Blender as a plugin for LW, good for fluid sims and smoke.

aidanodr
09-11-2009, 04:29 AM
Hi OlaHaldor,

I have been keeping on top of the Smoke feature in Blender 2.5. As others have said here it is under heavy development. Their are bugs and things still in its use as one would expect. Word is that v2.5 "Stable edition 1" will be released sometime this October ... if you can wait.

Meanwhile and because Blender is open source you can get the daily ( more or less ) blender 2.5 builds as it progresses toward that day from:

http://www.graphicall.org/builds/

I am using Windows so the most recent version is SVN23116 ( build by dingto ). Dingto pops up a build/builds more or less every day. Recently I have found the development is at lightening speed with new features being added / improved daily. This current build has Hair dynamics with cloth simulation added, did a very quick and nasty :D video of this here last night:

http://www.netactivesolutions.net/stuff/realtimehairdynamics.avi

SO - smoke and how to:

A. I would Preprepare Blender. Down the bottom left of the default View Window ( workarea ) is a little pop up box currently with a little cube icon? Press this to get a pop up menu.

B. Select USER PREFERENCES.

C. Switch Orbit Style to TURNTABLE, Under VIEW MANIPULATION enable "ROTATE AROUND SELECTION".

D. If you want ( I do ) under MOUSE BUTTONS enable "LEFT MOUSE BUTTON SELECT"

E. As you did to switch to the User Preferences above switch back to the 3D View. Press CTRL + U ( assuming windows ), an option pops up - Save User Settings, click it. Now in future your Blender will open with these settings enabled.

ON TO THE SMOKE:

1. add cube ( one there already when you open blender )
2. select cube, look over right to the panels, bottom of this many little icons / tabs. Mouse along and pick the MODIFIER one ( its a spanner icon )
3. ADD the Smoke Modifier from the drop box
4. Move over to the PHYSICS tab ( sort of bent "arm" icon )
5. Under SMOKE ( instead of NONE ) select DOMAIN. This sets up the area inside which the smoke "billows".
6. Add a PLANE ( ADD menu way up top left )
7. While plane is selected, again go to the Modifiers tab, add a smoke modifier to this. Go to the PHYSICS TAB again. This time select FLOW
8. While plane still selected go to the PARTICLES Tab. Press the + sign further up right to add a Particle System. This turns the PLANE into an EMITTER.
9. Scroll down the PARTICLE SYSTEM Panel to the DISPLAY section, expand it and select NONE. We do not want to display actual particles here. Smoke is a special case.
10. Go back to the PHYSICS TAB. Under PARTICLE SYSTEM: - drop the box and select PARTICLE SYSTEM ( this is the new particle system you just created. You are telling the Smoke System to use that ). I think their is a small bug here in that PARTICLE SYSTEM Is already written in that box. However drop the box anyway and select your particle system.
11. If all has gone well and when you press PLAY in the timeline you should see smoke.

Sorry for all the steps, this is as dummies as I can make it. Plus once you get it you will have all this done in 30 seconds or less.

For any further detail I suggest keep an eye on the SMOKE thread over at Blenderartists:

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=158317&page=22

I know the next question will be HOW DO I RENDER THE SMOKE, well i and others addressed this here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=91&t=804337

IT SHOULD ALSO BE NOTED - these builds are self contained compressed / zipped archives. Once downloaded you uncompress them to their own folder. The whole "install" is in this folder, so will not mess up your system. When finished simply delete this folder.

Cheers
Aidan ( also Lightwave, Modo user )

jeremyhardin
09-11-2009, 04:46 AM
Dear PLUGIN writer

Read this thread and see how scattered your community is ...and write a even basic fluid plugin...for lightwave...thank you

Best

As Cantarcan found out, there is very little money to be made in LW plugins. Some do well at it, and I'm happy for them. Some don't.

A fluids plugin would take such an investment that the cost would have to be $300-$500, and then no one would buy it and everyone would complain about the cost.

And even though the plugin would make, at an educated guess, around 2 or 3 sales initially and optimistically 10 in the first year, $3000 a year is hardly paying the bills, is it?

Tyrot, weren't you the one complaining (in an open letter/forum post) about the price of vroom? Wouldn't you just be doing the same thing with a fluids plugin?

Red_Oddity
09-11-2009, 04:47 AM
Why not download the demo for Houdini 10, if it produces the results you want, you can just rent it for a month (around 2000 USD, not sure this fits in your budget)

Cageman
09-11-2009, 05:00 AM
Tyrot, weren't you the one complaining (in an open letter/forum post) about the price of vroom? Wouldn't you just be doing the same thing with a fluids plugin?

Yeah... people not willing to pay for a tool are the ones who forces third party devs to leave LW.

tyrot
09-11-2009, 05:05 AM
dear jeremy

about vroom, i still think it is expensive for my budget and very specific use. If i compare this NODE with DPONT's nodes kit, oh man, that means DPONT must charge couple of thousands...

But jeremy i read in many forums that people are in need of a good fluid solver for lightwave. Mr.Rid wrote somewhere that they are in MAX for just FumeFX, probably it is same for other people too. A good LW fluid-smoke-fire system always sells imho...

Dynamite has a "developer issue" not a market issue...

Best

OlaHaldor
09-11-2009, 05:36 AM
Why not download the demo for Houdini 10, if it produces the results you want, you can just rent it for a month (around 2000 USD, not sure this fits in your budget)

I did, but it was tricky to get it installed. And when installation finally worked out, I couldn't run the damn thing. :hammer:
Splash screen shows up, and close just as nice as it appeared.


@ aidanodr
I'll be using this on a Mac, since I don't have a Windows box available at work. Thanks for the guide, I'll save it, make tons of backups of it and take it out for a spin later today. :thumbsup:


I might be alone on this one, but I'd gladly spend $300 for a fluid system for LightWave if there was one.

oobievision
09-11-2009, 05:40 AM
www.videocopilot.net

Edit : Gary Coleman " I ain't no Search Engine "

(",)

Great package its good use of organic materials

Titus
09-11-2009, 06:42 AM
As Cantarcan found out, there is very little money to be made in LW plugins.


Nothing excuses the bad customer service provided by Cantarcan. With a better tech and sales support I'm sure he could get many more clients.

jawset
09-11-2009, 07:07 AM
Another solution......plugin for After Effects and Cinema 4D........ http://jawset.com/index.php

It's in it's late Beta phase at the moment, but several people have been using it in production already.
Contact me via e-mail if you would like to beta-test the Cinema 4D plug-in.
I'm also considering a LW port of the plug-in - can't tell anything specific yet, though.

aidanodr
09-11-2009, 08:53 AM
@ aidanodr
I'll be using this on a Mac, since I don't have a Windows box available at work. Thanks for the guide, I'll save it, make tons of backups of it and take it out for a spin later today. :thumbsup:

Hi OlaHaldor,

No prob for the guide, not the first time repeating this process, its being asked for alot in different places :D

Keep an eye on graphicall.org - the builds are coming thick and fast - all squashing bugs you might have spotted previously. So by later today a newer mac build might have appeared if not more.

As I said dump the build into its own folder, use and delete folder when finished - doesnt mess your system up.

The only thing that needs to be on your system is PYTHON. While Blender works without some features may not:

http://www.python.org/download/ - mac versions here too!

I have Version 2.6.2 and Version 3.1.1 both installed fine. The 2.6 version is for backward compatibility so I can use Blender v2.49 and before. Blender v2.5 uses the v3.x of python.Again on my system I have the current Blender v2.49 installed and then the builds of v2.5 also - side by side.

Aidan

tyrot
09-11-2009, 09:07 AM
dear jawset

What can we do for you to think seriously about LW port? How long would it take ? Count me in...

Best

geo_n
09-11-2009, 09:38 AM
It's in it's late Beta phase at the moment, but several people have been using it in production already.
Contact me via e-mail if you would like to beta-test the Cinema 4D plug-in.
I'm also considering a LW port of the plug-in - can't tell anything specific yet, though.

wow that is totally a good price:thumbsup:. Please bring it to lw and max. We're using fumefx but for lw there's no easy way to do smoke interacting with 3d.

jawset
09-11-2009, 10:04 AM
What can we do for you to think seriously about LW port? How long would it take ?
I am considering it seriously. I wouldn't mention it here if i weren't.


How long would it take ?
This is one of the things i'm still evaluating. But Turbulence has been designed to be ported to more than one 3D application - the application-specific part is less than 5% of the project. Therefore, i expect a port to be a rather efficient effort.


wow that is totally a good price.
The After Effects plug-in has a lower price than the 3D version.
The C4D plug-in will be available for EUR399.

Stooch
09-11-2009, 10:06 AM
hmm, i was under the impression that max was out of the question due to the price when i made my post.

if you are going to go buy a license of max and then spring for the fumefx plugin, why not just buy maya2010? it supports macs and is a hell of a tool to have in any arsenal.

Intuition
09-11-2009, 11:01 AM
Stooch kinda has s point. But....its a learning curve.

I would like fumeFX or turbulence for maya but maya's native fluid boxes are pretty nice already. Harder to set up then fumeFX (mainly cause fume fx is made for fewer cases then maya's) but overall very versatile. There is overburn for maya but I haven't tried it yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0hkt66hAFg&feature=related

Andyjaggy
09-11-2009, 11:23 AM
How about using clips of smoke and putting it on some cards? Just a thought, might work in a pinch.

Intuition
09-11-2009, 11:38 AM
http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1524&Itemid=305

Jeez, they really want you to learn Houdini these days.

Greenlaw
09-11-2009, 12:00 PM
This is one of the things i'm still evaluating. But Turbulence has been designed to be ported to more than one 3D application - the application-specific part is less than 5% of the project. Therefore, i expect a port to be a rather efficient effort.

Oh, god, please, please, pleeeeease! We just looked at the AE flaming hands video and the C4D smoke tests, and we can really use something like this in LightWave and/or Fusion.

Thanks for considering a port LW! :)

Greenlaw

OlaHaldor
09-11-2009, 12:30 PM
http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1524&Itemid=305

Jeez, they really want you to learn Houdini these days.

If one only could get it to install and actually start.... :devil:


@ jawset
I'd pay up on the spot if a plug-in for LW would happen to magically appear at your website!

Red_Oddity
09-11-2009, 12:42 PM
Oh, god, please, please, pleeeeease! We just looked at the AE flaming hands video and the C4D smoke tests, and we can really use something like this in LightWave and/or Fusion.

Thanks for considering a port LW! :)

Greenlaw

There already is a plugin by SpeedSix that does 2d fluids for Fusion (for quite a while i might add)

Fluidz, these days GenArts does the sales of anything SpeedSix does.

The Dommo
09-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Will this help you?
http://www.electrocolor.com/gallery.html#Fluid

Greenlaw
09-11-2009, 02:56 PM
There already is a plugin by SpeedSix that does 2d fluids for Fusion (for quite a while i might add)

Yes, we actually use that tool from time to time, though I think the speedsix stuff is broken for Fusion 6, and I think 5 as well. (I could be wrong; it might just be that we haven't updated the plugins. I guess I should ask my boss.)

But what I'm really asking for is something that works directly within in Fusion's 3D environment. (But, I would prefer seeing the LightWave port first.) :)


Greenlaw

wp_capozzi
09-11-2009, 03:36 PM
I've filmed real smoke and also a fog machine before in front of a black background, then composited it in After Effects. Worked well.

3DBob
09-11-2009, 04:43 PM
Dear Jawset

Yes please - got a project in prepro right now.

3DBob

Intuition
09-11-2009, 06:17 PM
If one only could get it to install and actually start.... :devil:


@ jawset
I'd pay up on the spot if a plug-in for LW would happen to magically appear at your website!

Hmm. yeah my Houdini using co worker was saying the latest is a little "unstable".

Since you have a mac pro are you installing the mac version, cause you may be able to run the windows version with emulated windows right? Boot camp or something?

OlaHaldor
09-11-2009, 06:26 PM
Boot Camp is not emulated. It's a normal NTFS partition. If there's anything emulated it's the BIOS, so I will need to reboot the Mac in order to have the choice whether to boot in Mac OS or Windows. For that I will need to partition a hard drive, or get a new one, the list of things just goes on. And on top of it, I need a license. *sight* Why must Microsoft keep on creating the OS. Would be so much easier if there only was one. :D

Stooch
09-12-2009, 10:05 AM
Stooch kinda has s point. But....its a learning curve.

I would like fumeFX or turbulence for maya but maya's native fluid boxes are pretty nice already. Harder to set up then fumeFX (mainly cause fume fx is made for fewer cases then maya's) but overall very versatile. There is overburn for maya but I haven't tried it yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0hkt66hAFg&feature=related

it is a learning curve.

the trick is to set your fluids to a flat shape (ie 30, 30, 3) and then do a whole lot of testing. its very very fast that way and you really get a good sense of the settings as they update in near real time.

i think alot of people get lost in all the settings with maya fluids, when most needs are served quite well with just a few choice tweaks.

i totally agree that maya gives you more flexibility and this is what makes it more difficult. but ultimately you get a very scriptable and expanable setup and they render extremely fast if you dont turn on unnecessary settings (like 4-30 seconds per frame speeds if yuo play your cards right)

heh, fumeFX sure has alot of hype in this industry

overburn is a hack. it uses the fluid shader as a texture and then duplicates them as if they are sprites via instancer. It looks alright but only useful for very limited applications.

I think that maya can give excellent results for a smoke grenade and should be the first choice here. a little shocked to hear that houdini isnt stable. heh. oh well.

Intuition
09-12-2009, 06:26 PM
Yeah, I was following this thread back in April.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=86&t=741591

I mean, we used fume fx at Eden, Bsg, and DD for what it does best. Seems like max was around for that alone much anymore, now that Vray is in maya.

But with a little creativity, something old Lightwave guys usually have a bag full of, Maya fluid fx are really neat.

Maybe he could download a 30 day maya demo and play with the fluid fx to see what he could come up with? I mean the fluid with emitter button in the default shelves would be a good start.

--edit---

Oh btw there are many zip file and tutorials in that cgtalk thread that might lead those interested in the right direction.

Greenlaw
09-12-2009, 11:30 PM
I have been keeping on top of the Smoke feature in Blender 2.5....

Aidan, thank you very much for posting this info! It was very helpful, and now you have me very interested in Blender. :)

Greenlaw

aidanodr
09-13-2009, 05:39 PM
Aidan, thank you very much for posting this info! It was very helpful, and now you have me very interested in Blender. :)

Greenlaw

Hi Greenlaw,

Indeed I thank you back for the acknowledgement.

I just wish to say one thing to readers of this post. I AM NOT TRYING TO WRENCH YOU GUYS AWAY FROM LIGHTWAVE. Because Blender is FREE it is within ANYONES remit financially or otherwise to have in their toolset. I see blender as a tool ALONG SIDE ones main app, not as a replacement.

The more that others from different apps like Lightwave see it from this perspective the better - in my opinion. It will create positive input to this open source free Blender project, a way of advancing it from experiences with other commercial apps. Instead of anyone being negative about its development all the time, go suggest at Blender forums.

I use Lightwave, Modo - I do not see them in competition. I see them as tools, each useful for different things. I do not set up competition between them. I watch Blenders development and how I can use each app alongside each other. I do not create a your one is bigger than mine scenario. Each to their own.

Anyways thats just me. I am excited about all the new features coming in Blender 2.5 AND how they play with other apps like Lightwave. All this from an open source FREE app, one has to say hats off in my opinion. Collada is now being developed aggressively for Blender 2.5. Now lets see a Lightwave / Blender work-flow and visa versa. Ask things like how can this be positive as opposed to negative ..

My two small cents
Aidan

erikals
09-13-2009, 07:07 PM
aurora is considering making a Fluids plugin for LW Core, we will see...
i'd say try Blender, if it is what we hope it is it kicks, if not, then go 3DMax, but it's gonna cost.

Vincenzo
09-13-2009, 07:33 PM
Why dont you just use hypervoxels? First of all smoke is not a fluid! Smoke has no surface tension like a fluid and is considered compressible. Fluids have much different compressibily than gases. You could spend big money doing a fluid simulation and then have something totally wrong.

OlaHaldor
09-13-2009, 07:42 PM
I can only answer on my behalf. What anyone else might think is totally up to them to answer.

The reason I don't want to do it with HVs is simply put in a few words. Particle control and lack of intuitive controls.

I'm no pro at particles, and in my opinion, particles is in very different league of science than modeling, lighting and rendering.

I've seen Dynamite in action, and it's simply "put this object here, make it have this density smoke emitting from it, make the air viscosity like this, and let it swirl. CALCULATE!" The smoke and the way it moves looks so REAL just like that.

I don't say it's impossible to find a way to do it with particles, I just don't know if I'm up to the task vs. smoke fluid simulation like in Blender, Houdini etc. If so - I'd LOVE to have a thorough tutorial to bring a particle newbie up to speed. One thing is the particles, the other thing is that it has to look believable!

Whether smoke is a fluid or not in the real world is irrelevant when the result provided is what we're after. A car isn't a bunch of splines and polygons either. :) The same idea goes all over the industry. The sound of a carrot snapping may sound like a snapping neck of someone, or suger shot in high frame rates may look like a waterfall....

Titus
09-14-2009, 09:35 AM
Fluids is not only liquids.


Liquid, gas, even glass are fluids.

Greenlaw
09-15-2009, 02:44 AM
Are there any scripts currently available that will get LightWave camera data into Blender? For that matter, is there an equivalent to PointOven for Blender?

Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

Greenlaw

erikals
09-15-2009, 08:09 AM
i have the same question, only LW>Blender>LW...

Titus
09-15-2009, 09:26 AM
Are there any scripts currently available that will get LightWave camera data into Blender? For that matter, is there an equivalent to PointOven for Blender?

Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

Greenlaw

Blender can import .mot files.

Intuition
09-15-2009, 12:52 PM
Hey Ola, did you try to get a demo of cinema 4d and try to run the Turbulence beta? ]

http://jawset.com/index.php

That might work.

erikals
09-15-2009, 02:19 PM
probably the Blender forum will be the best place to ask this Cam match question.
as far as .mot files, that is good, but i'm interested in a 100% Cam match,
and i don't think that would be close enough. (though i could be wrong)

kolby
09-17-2009, 09:15 AM
Ola, look at this: http://www.polas.net/smoke/index.php
It is particle based plugin, but produce nice fluid like result. If you are able to create realistic smoke with HyperVoxels, it can be solution for you.

OlaHaldor
09-17-2009, 09:24 AM
I have thought about the plugin, but lack of a Universal Binary version makes me stand back until he can provide it.

I have a couple of other plugins Polas has made, they're fantastic, but it's VERY tedious to adjust settings, wait ages for it to apply, and in worst case LightWave crashes. No UB, no go.

erikals
09-17-2009, 09:25 AM
i'd go with Blender,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjpV6AlGk8A&NR=1

halley
09-17-2009, 02:41 PM
i'd go with Blender,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjpV6AlGk8A&NR=1

After seeing this video I went to Amazon and got “Mastering Blender” by Tony Mullen (link bellow) should be arriving any day now. I’ll try to remember to get back to you folks with my thought on it. And I do agree the more you know the better off you are. Trying to learn Houdini too… heck struggle with all Lightwave has to offer for that matter.

http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Blender-Tony-Mullen/dp/0470407417/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_4

erikals
09-17-2009, 03:46 PM
for fluids Max FumeFX is the way to go,

Houdini is just too expensive imo...
i hear lot of good stuff about the app though, i just haven't seen any stuff that can defend it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

haven't tested Blender, i'm worried though that it has "blocky" artifacts, somewhat like Dynamite,... i hope not. i'm sure in time more tests by Blender artists will be done to see if this is fact or not...

GraphXs
09-17-2009, 05:23 PM
Never trired Max's Fume FX, looks great! At work we are currently using Maya's Fluids for some Fire, overall it looks really good, but it tends to be "blobby" without putting the grid up to high to make the 8core chock! Now in addition to Maya fluids we will composite LW hyervoxels on top of it. We feel get a better breakage of a "fire" turbalance and look with Hyervoxels and a better flow with fire w/Maya. Putting them together should look great! Though our needs are more video game/fantasy look it should give us what we need.

There is some nice example of Hypervoxel fire here:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101787

Good Luck!

MachineClaw
09-18-2009, 12:16 PM
You could just buy Artbeats ReelFire clips and comp the fire into the animation. on a object plane or comp it in after effects later on. It's old school method but it's also been done so your not reinventing the wheel.
(hover above the images to see them animate. )
http://www.artbeats.com/collections/214?page=1

Dynamic Realities used to have Pyro, Impact, and Napalm plugins for Lightwave. Their web site aprears to be down and the plugins have not been updated in ages but they work in Lightwave 9.x on Windows, not sure about the Mac versions though. Don't even know if the plugins are available for purchase anymore or not.

Dynamic Realities Napalm with Impact created a bunch of explosion break up of 3d model and fire explosion effects for multiple movies. Used to be a great solution for quick and dirty fire effects in Lightwave.

tischbein3
09-21-2009, 11:47 AM
i have the same question, only LW>Blender>LW...
WIP thread, revived with a short addendum about lenses, more to come when I do have the time:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=5&t=766252&page=1&pp=15

erikals
09-21-2009, 03:25 PM
sweet,.. :) :)

VERY much appreciated :)

thank you!

Carm3D
09-22-2009, 02:40 AM
Here's another low-budget option: Fire & Smoke Generator (http://polas.net/smoke/index.php). No fluids, but a step up from your basic smokey particle system IMO. The emitter puts out a bunch of donut wind effectors that perterb the particles nicely.

OlaHaldor
09-22-2009, 04:24 AM
Appreciate more answers and people trying to figure out solutions for this matter, however that plugin has been mentioned earlier in this thread and unfortunately there is no UB version of it for Mac. :( PPC version is... well how can I say it.. dead to me.

Stooch
09-25-2009, 03:03 AM
yep, i participated in that thread too. I have some rigs im writing with python that really simplify alot of the cache and retiming of maya fluids, i love how flexible they are and for me as an artist they are the most fun to play with. although in fairness i havent tried houdinis new fluid solver.



Yeah, I was following this thread back in April.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=86&t=741591

I mean, we used fume fx at Eden, Bsg, and DD for what it does best. Seems like max was around for that alone much anymore, now that Vray is in maya.

But with a little creativity, something old Lightwave guys usually have a bag full of, Maya fluid fx are really neat.

Maybe he could download a 30 day maya demo and play with the fluid fx to see what he could come up with? I mean the fluid with emitter button in the default shelves would be a good start.

--edit---

Oh btw there are many zip file and tutorials in that cgtalk thread that might lead those interested in the right direction.

Intuition
09-26-2009, 01:04 PM
Yeah, Maya's fluid FX are not fume FX from scratch but can be made to do so. I still prefer fume fx for quick smoke work but Maya's fluid fx are customizable for so many setups.

I was playing around with it just now thinking "ok quick fumeFX like setup" and made this really quick.

http://www.mediafire.com/?gmnmzidqm3m

Carm3D
09-26-2009, 02:55 PM
My next YouTube tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/user/Carm3D) will be a review of Fire & Smoke Generator. This way you can see first-hand what it can do. I am still rendering my new YouTube Intro animation (http://www.carm3d.net/Media/Carm3DYouTube/). After that's done I'll create this vid. :hammer:

prometheus
09-27-2009, 09:51 AM
My next YouTube tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/user/Carm3D) will be a review of Fire & Smoke Generator. This way you can see first-hand what it can do. I am still rendering my new YouTube Intro animation (http://www.carm3d.net/Media/Carm3DYouTube/). After that's done I'll create this vid. :hammer:

I just happened to catch your video for the fire and smoke generator on youtube, I know your second part isn´t finished for the moment, but thanks for sharing carm3d..good quality on the video and I liked your intro cool and funny.

I might not be the right one to comment on the tutorial, since I know much of that stuff myself but..overall it´s easy to follow me thinks..keep it up.

Michael

Carm3D
09-27-2009, 10:04 AM
Thanks Prometheus. 2nd one is uploading now. I am considering remastering these however. I did not like how iMovie put out a video with a dynamic frame rate. YouTube chose to go with the slowest rate when it converted it. I just purchased another video editor and we'll see how this works out.. Wish me luck! :bangwall:

Carm3D
09-27-2009, 06:09 PM
Success. The remastered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUFJpurGCw) version of the Fire & Smoke video is online and playing at a fluid 30fps (fluid? Get it?) for the parts that are supposed to be so. Part two is uploading.

Enjoy.

OlaHaldor
09-27-2009, 10:51 PM
Nice! That gave me a little heads up on that plugin. Especially that I can bake the particle motion.... hmmmm... might I possibly get this anyway and run it in the highly unstable CMF version....

Carm3D
09-28-2009, 12:26 AM
What is CMF?

OlaHaldor
09-28-2009, 12:31 AM
Or maybe it's CFM? Don't remember.. It's the version of LW for Mac before Mac went Intel.

CFM / CMF (wtf is it, really?) is made for the times when Apple had G4 and G5 CPUs. Often mentioned as "Mac OS" or "PPC". While UB, Universal Binary, should work with both platforms. However, LightWave handles plugins different between the two Mac versions, being .p and .plugin.

Since Pawel Olas is busy doing other things, he says he doesn't have time to update his plugins to support UB. :( I'd SO totally like to have the treesdesigner and leaves generator on Mac!! And the Fire & Smoke Generator would be a GREAT tool as well...

Mr Rid
09-28-2009, 02:08 AM
...

Since Pawel Olas is busy doing other things, he says he doesn't have time to update his plugins to support UB. :( I'd SO totally like to have the treesdesigner and leaves generator on Mac!! And the Fire & Smoke Generator would be a GREAT tool as well...

Can always use Boot Camp.

OlaHaldor
09-28-2009, 02:23 AM
It's a possibility, but it will be a P in the A to reboot every time you want to generate something new and take it into the scene to see how it looks..

I'm on the thought of installing Fusion or Parallels for this matter if it will give me the performance I need.

geo_n
09-30-2009, 08:25 AM
Success. The remastered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUFJpurGCw) version of the Fire & Smoke video is online and playing at a fluid 30fps (fluid? Get it?) for the parts that are supposed to be so. Part two is uploading.

Enjoy.

Looks good. Nice intro.
What is the advantage to using native particles system of lw? Are you able to do simulations that can't be done natively?

Titus
09-30-2009, 08:37 AM
Looks good. Nice intro.
What is the advantage to using native particles system of lw? Are you able to do simulations that can't be done natively?

Exactly, LW particles are very "dumb" and don't behave like a real fluid, they are more like tiny bullets.

Lightwolf
09-30-2009, 08:38 AM
CFM / CMF (wtf is it, really?)
CFM: Code Fragment Manager

Cheers,
Mike

geo_n
09-30-2009, 08:42 AM
Exactly, LW particles are very "dumb" and don't behave like a real fluid, they are more like tiny bullets.

I meant the fireplugin. Is it better than native particles in lw?

Carm3D
09-30-2009, 08:56 AM
I meant the fireplugin. Is it better than native particles in lw?

It's a shortcut. You could actually do a similiar effect with all of the tools you get in basic Lightwave. I am planning on doing a vid that showcases this in the future. But this plugin does give you a tremendous amount of flexibility and time-saving.

Carm

geo_n
09-30-2009, 10:22 AM
It's a shortcut. You could actually do a similiar effect with all of the tools you get in basic Lightwave. I am planning on doing a vid that showcases this in the future. But this plugin does give you a tremendous amount of flexibility and time-saving.

Carm

I see. WIll wait how flexible it is. We're using fumefx but honestly its too overkill for some stuff we do it takes more resources(man hours/rendertime) than what a client would pay sometimes.
So for clients that
pay more=fumefx
pay less = lw fx
:D

Carm3D
09-30-2009, 10:27 AM
If you watch my video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUFJpurGCw) (part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRvDNEnAk_I)) you will get a pretty good idea of how flexible it is.

calilifestyle
09-30-2009, 01:42 PM
thanks Carm. this great to see how it F & S works. Also it's great to see what the limitations are.

djlithium
09-30-2009, 02:09 PM
As Cantarcan found out, there is very little money to be made in LW plugins. Some do well at it, and I'm happy for them. Some don't.

A fluids plugin would take such an investment that the cost would have to be $300-$500, and then no one would buy it and everyone would complain about the cost.

And even though the plugin would make, at an educated guess, around 2 or 3 sales initially and optimistically 10 in the first year, $3000 a year is hardly paying the bills, is it?

Tyrot, weren't you the one complaining (in an open letter/forum post) about the price of vroom? Wouldn't you just be doing the same thing with a fluids plugin?

I don't think that was the problem Jeremy. Frankly I spent at least 1500 on dynamite seats with Can for my own stuff, let alone the ones I bought for BSG for season III. I even got him sales out of digi-ahehm-lies.cough...
He made some decent money off Dynamite. I know of at least 5 probably more users who bought multiple copies of dynamite and still use it today (I use it almost daily).
I think he just bailed.

Yes its hard to make a living writing LW plugs but in Can's case I think he just fsuked off on the community.

I didn't have a problem paying that money to get fluidics into LW for what I needed several times over - what gets me is that NT doesn't feel its a worth while investment to do Fluidics and fire natively in LW and it got trumped by "Hair". Stupid.

Anyway, I am really comfortable working in Dynamite so if anyone needs help with it or work on a shot using it let me know.
IM me at djlithium(@)hotmail.com

OlaHaldor
10-02-2009, 03:05 AM
@ Carm3D: Is it possible to make the particles move slower to resemble motion of smoke?

Carm3D
10-02-2009, 05:45 AM
Sure.. Less heat power means it goes up slower.. And you can use less spin on your vortexes.. And don't forget the speed limiter option.

DLIT
10-31-2009, 09:40 AM
In this thread no one has talked about Napalm from Dynamic Realities and their previous site address seems to be down. Has anyone some news about this ?
About Dynamite, is it still alive ? I was told that only the 64 bits version was operational for LW. Is there anything new about that ?

erikals
10-31-2009, 10:13 AM
Napalm? nope, never used it, looks outdated.

Dynamite works on 32bit LW, however it's incomplete.
there are threads about it, and why we won't use it. search "Dynamite"

you might want to try Blender smoke, and comp it together with LW, as suggested earlier.
Blender also has good RBD dynamic and Cloth that doesn't jitter.

Greenlaw
10-31-2009, 04:47 PM
In this thread no one has talked about Napalm from Dynamic Realities and their previous site address seems to be down. Has anyone some news about this ?
About Dynamite, is it still alive ? I was told that only the 64 bits version was operational for LW. Is there anything new about that ?

I believe Dynamic Realities has been out of business for some time now. Napalm is pretty old too...not sure it still runs on recent builds of LW.

Dynamite Pro mysteriously went away a few months ago. We've been using it for several years now. While there are still some issues with it, we've used it with success on many jobs. For fluid dynamics, it was the only thing directly available to LightWave.

Blender has a version of this technology in recent beta builds, but it still has a way to go. There is also something being developed for C4D, which the developer says he will port to LightWave eventually, but it's in beta as well.

I started playing around with Houdini this weekend. It's pretty complicated, but SideFX has a lot of good tutorials and videos on their website. You can download and use the watermarked Apprentice version for free, or get the non-watermarked Apprentice HD version for $99. The catch is, you can't use the output for commercial projects. For that, you need to purchase or rent the commercial version, which can be expensive. Depending on the budget of your project, it might be worth the rental though; I think read that SideFX will convert your Apprentice HD data for you when you rent the commercial version.

By the way, there was a pretty interesting thread about using Houdini with LightWave a few years ago. Go here:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86307&highlight=houdini

This thread is from over a year ago, and I think all the info is still valid.

Greenlaw

Phil
10-31-2009, 05:16 PM
Dynamic Realities is resting, not dead. I've not been told that I cannot say anything more, but I simply don't have any more detail than that. I simply pinged Andy to find out what might be happening after the site went down. Dave Vrba owns the product line now - Andy no longer appears to be connected to DR.

djlithium
11-01-2009, 03:53 PM
If you still need to get this shot done I am certainly capable of doing it with Dynamite and I can even render it here for you if you like.
Drop me an email at djlithium(at)hotmail.com

Cheers.